Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib: Pls Include Scripture

I'm a you-better-be-ready-when-He-comes-tribber :-D

Scriptures:

Luke 12:35-40 "Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

Lu 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Ro 13:11 ¶ And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

2Pe 3:12-14 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Mt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I also believe that one day, my Lord Jesus is coming back to this earth to take me home with Him and I'm going to live with Him for all eternity. I'll be right there beside those angels singing and praising God forever and ever. I'm not too worried about those streets of gold, not too excited about the pearly gates. What gets me going is the thought of seeing my Matchless Saviour (May His name is Blessed) face to face and that i'll be able to give Him the ceaseless praise and glory He deserves! AMEN!!! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

*sigh*

Right now, i am a son of God, and it hasn't been made clear what i will be, but i know that when He appears I will be like Him, because i will see Him as He is. Since i have this hope within me i am purifying myself even as He is pure. For the Glory of God.

Thats all for now ;-) So let's be ready when He comes.

May the God and Father of our Blessed Lord Jesus increase your hearts that you may be able to receive greater revelation of HIM!

"I... Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:"

Hallelujah Brethren! :lol:

I tend to agree with Krispy on this one. Debate it all you want. It will unfold according to God's plan regardless of our position. The important thing is to watch and pray. Be found in Him, not having your own righteousness but the righteousness that comes by faith. Make sure there is oil in your lamps. Is debating this helping you to keep your lamp full? Jesus said that no one knows the day or the hour. Even HE didn't know, at least not while on earth. Perhaps the reason we argue over this is that it is hidden. MAYBE we aren't supposed to know!

While I tend to be pretrib, I won't argue the matter a whole lot. I'll simply say this. The context of the Luke 12 verses quoted indicates that life is just going along as usual when the rapture occurs. Somehow this doesn't much sound like the middle or the end of the GREAT tribulation. But that's just me.

On a side note. I do believe that there will be some rather trying times ahead. God has allowed a great deal of suffering to happen to His saints throughout history and I find no reason that we will be exempt.

In Christ

Doug

"I'm a you-better-be-ready-when-He-comes-tribber"

Amen and Amen.

Vico, you get the best post of the week trophy! IMHO. Very well said indeed.

vico wrote:
I'm a you-better-be-ready-when-He-comes-tribber :-D

Amen, me, too! In the past, I kind of road the fence on the whole pre/post trib thing, because There is Scripture that can back up both. So, I have determined to just be a [b]you-better-be-ready-when-He-comes-tribber[/b] because in reality, that is the ONLY thing that truly matters!

Could it be true? Four seperate posts with a general cosensus? Here? On SI? Am I seeing things? :-) :-) :-)

John173 wrote:
IMHO. Very well said indeed.

IMHO? Does this mean In My Humble Opinion?

John173 wrote:
Could it be true? Four seperate posts with a general cosensus? Here? On SI? Am I seeing things? :-) :-) :-)

Shocking, isn't it!? :-D

hi, sorry did it without signing

hi,
Sorry to upset you're consensus party,but I think it that it does make a difference where you stand on pre trib -post trib.It will have some consequences because what you believe always will.I can't see how post trib view can deal with the imminent coming of Christ.If christians said their is no rapture would be a more likely view than a post trib view.
As for my scripture below Jesus telling his disciples about his return:

Luk 17:26\t\tAnd as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

\tLuk 17:27\t\tThey did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

\tLuk 17:28\t\tLikewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

\tLuk 17:29\t\tBut the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

\tLuk 17:30\t\tEven thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

He highlighted that Judgement came on Noah's Generation the day that Noe entered into the ark
and that Judgement came on Sodom and Gomorah the same day that Lot left Sodom.Judgement could not happen until the Godly were taken out of the situation.
He also highlighted that things were going on as normal,they were eating drinking,marrying etc.
It is obvious that these poeple had not just gone through any tribulation;so this coming could not be just post the great tribulation.Then if it is not post trib when is it?
Rgds Staff

Hi I see everybody is trying to keep things"light"......Hope it stays that way, Anyway I came across a scripture that is vewwwry intwesting.Luke21;36 "pray that you will be counted worthy to escape the things that are about to come upon the face of the earth" ruhh-row.......David

staff wrote:
hi,
Sorry to upset you're consensus party,but I think it that it does make a difference where you stand on pre trib -post trib.It will have some consequences because what you believe always will.I can't see how post trib view can deal with the imminent coming of Christ.If christians said their is no rapture would be a more likely view than a post trib view.

Interesting you say this in light of the fact that most of us were saying that we were pre-trib...

I, of course didn't, because I said I was riding the fence when I was younger...however, I would probably lean more towards pre-trib.

I would like to say that it doesn't actually make a difference where you stand. Pre/post trib is not a salvation issue. All it is, is a discussion issue, with the knowledge from both camps that WE MUST BE READY FOR WHENEVER HE COMES. The fact Scripturally remains that we will neither know the day or the hour when he comes, therefore it is not a crucial issue where someone stands in conjunction with pre/post trib. Scripture does not say, you better believe pre/post trib, or else... It says "be ready, because we do not know the day or the hour..." :-D

{small edits made}

Dear Brethren in the Lord,
The reason for the great confusion concerning the timing of the rapture is because we have assumed that the great and terrible day of the Lord and the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus is the same event. It is not!

Joel wrote:
[i][b]"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." (JOEL 2:11)[/b][/i]

Jesus said:
[i][b]"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken..." (MATTHEW 24:29)[/b][/i]

So, according to scripture - the darkening of the sun and the moon, which by the way appears at the breaking of the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12), will occur after the tribulation and before the great and terrible day of the Lord.

If you have something in between separating the two events as we do, they are definitely not the same event.

If we compare Rev. 6 and Matt. 24 closely we will find that they both describe persecution of the saints in great tribulation before the darkening of the sun and the moon!!!

And if we pay attention to what Jesus says, our gathering together unto Him is clearly after the tribulation and not before:

[i][b]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (MATTHEW 24:31)[/b][/i]

About the day of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him, Paul wrote:

[i][b]"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him... ...Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 THESSALONIANS 2:2&4)[/b][/i]

Again the scripture is crystal clear: The day of the Lord's wrath and our gathering together (rapture) unto Him, shall not come except there be a falling away first and the Anti-Christ is revealed!!!

It is all very clear, except we mistakingly think that the great tribulation and the Day of the Lord is one and the same... :-o

I will also want to add, that it really does matter where you stand in terms of preparedness for what is to come. Are you prepared to suffer hard persecution and shame for the name of Jesus or are you just prepared to be whisked away up into the sky before anything bad happens?

God bless

Stampe

Hi Ben,
I agree that the rapture isnt a salvation issue unless of course that we are saved out of this world by the Rapture!
But you're right it isnt a salvation issue but what i'm saying is that one of the views is correct and one is not and always this will have some effect.Knowing the correct view of scripture will always have a positive effect.For instance if I was a pre tribber I could not be caught up easily in replacement theology as I would know about God dealing with Isreal at the time of the end or I would believe in the immenant return of Christ as you say"be ready, because we do not know the day or the hour" which post tribbers can not believe in because he can only come after tribulation in their eyes.
Get ready for what?You could say that post tribbers will be ready for the wrong thing, the tribulation rather than Christ's Return or that pre tribbers are ready for the wrong thing Christ's Return rather than tribulation depending on your view point.O hold on a second doesnt the scripture say be ready... for what?.His return that's what.So it is important what view you believe because pretribbers are getting ready for Christ's Return of which we don't know the day nor the hour and post tribbers are not!
I do agree with you though it is not as important as a salvation issue but more prophecy is written in scripture about the second coming/rapture than the first coming;so it must still be very important,
Keeping it lighthearted,isnt scripture fun,
Rgds Staff

Hi Stampe,

In Regard to below you said,
[u]I will also want to add, that it really does matter where you stand in terms of preparedness for what is to come. Are you prepared to suffer hard persecution and shame for the name of Jesus or are you just prepared to be whisked away up into the sky before anything bad happens?[/u]

Just a question;
Are you ready for tribulation or Christ's Return?

We should always be ready for persecution.There are christians today that have been killed for their faith.The scripture makes it clear that will will suffer many things for his name.After saying that some christians have gone about their life without any physical persecution and have been blessed of god and some christians have suffered physically;as the lord wills.
After saying all this we are to expect persecution but we are to be ready for his return not tribulation.
Getting heavier,
Rgds staff

hi stampe,I have a little bit different take on most everything you say.First , are you saying the great and terrible day of the Lord is the same as the great tribulation?I am not sure in your comparison.second,you seem to falsely believe that saints dying in the trib. means nobody has been raptured.The saints in the tribulation are those left behind after the rapture.third, you ascribe matt24;31 to the rapture of the saints living on earth. Nowhere do I see earth,ascention or anyone changed.It says gathered from heaven. Seems to me this is saying that the raptured saints already in heaven are called together to go back to earth to do battle with the antichrist.....David

I just thought I'd offer a brief perspective that you will not hear from too many other sources, save those, like myself, who hold to an eschatology of the Art Katz flavor, in regard to the rapture.

Romans 11-12:2 teaches that one of the primary reasons the church exists is to provoke the nation of Israel to jealousy, by a living a sacrificial lifestyle, so as to bring about the salvation of all of Israel. Simply put, if the church is raptured at any point prior to the second coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation period, the church simply cannot fulfill it's purpose in provoking Israel to jealousy.

For if no church exists to provoke Israel to jealousy, then who will provoke Israel to jealousy? How then shall all Israel be saved?

hi King Jimmy,I dont think scripture narrows it down like that.If youkeep reading that same chapter you will see "the time of the gentiles" concept.The idea being "fruition".Its almost like the concept is that provoking the jews is Gods only plan for the jews salvation.If this were acurate doctrine it would be confirmed in scripture.Gods plan for the jews includes but is not limited to provoking the jews.The church in its glory will provoke the jew because of love.Now in defense of Art we just might see some jews saved in the great tribulation when christians are martyred. The jews may see this and be moved on by the Holy Spirit.In my opinion the provoking of the jews has nothing to do with the rapture.....Blessings,David

The time of the Gentiles concept is crucial to understanding this perspective. The Scriptures say a "partial hardening" has happened until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. It is when the time of the Gentiles has come that Israel will be provoked unto jealousy.

This isn't simply a numerical thing. It's also a qualitative thing, as God not will only bring in the full number of the Gentiles, but as passages like Ephesians 4:11-15 teaches us, the church will be brought unto a mature man. And it is this mature man that is able to live the witness Israel needs to see that will provoke them unto jealousy. , that all Israel might be saved.

Stampe wrote:

I will also want to add, that it really does matter where you stand in terms of preparedness for what is to come. Are you prepared to suffer hard persecution and shame for the name of Jesus or are you just prepared to be whisked away up into the sky before anything bad happens?

God bless

Stampe

Out of only love, not condemnation, I would just like to say that I think you are looking at my statemnt (and others that agree with me) a little legalistically. The point I am making, is that WE DO NOT KNOW THE TIME OR THE HOUR, therefore, IT IS CRUCIAL TO BE READY FOR ANYTHING. BEING READY FOR ANYTHING, now that is what matters. It's interesting that both parties still argue both camps... so how do we solve the argument, ultimately? We wait and see what happens, and in that waiting, we are ready for WHATEVER happens. What this means, if you don't still understand is, that if you are a pre-tibber, you prepare yourself spiritually if the trib does happen, if it doesn't happen then you know that you were prepared for the worst, and get to enjoy the ease of going to heaven when he comes. Make sense? Or are you saying that Scripture doesn't say that we should be ready for anything and that we don't know the day or the hour?????

:-)

I am sure that our Christian brothers in China and the Middle East would say they believe in a post-tribulation rapture.

I am sure that our Christian brothers in China and the Middle East would say they believe in a post-tribulation rapture.

hmmm... try telling them differently...

When the commies took over, these new converts stood their ground rather than running, thinking that Jesus would take them up into heaven... The story's about one poor chap who lost his child and wife because they had false hope of floating into the clouds...

Thats another thought i've had. although i don't take one side or the other, i think the "post-tribbers" have it ok, if you know what i mean.

If you believe that we will be taken by the Lord following a tribulation, if you're wrong, well, who cares! one day you'll just be caught up to be with that Lord! Theres rejoicing either way, right or wrong.

Now on the other hand, if the "pre-tribbers" are wrong, their in for some big disappointment and serious test of faith, it will be as though God let them down.

Now, like i said, i don't take one side or the other (because i think that asking if Jesus will come back before of after "the" tribulation is irrelevant) but these are just a few thoughts i thought i'd share. :-)

You better be ready when He comes! ;-)

May God bless us as we watch and wait for His glorious appearing! Purifying ourselves in the hope of His return.

Titus 2:12-15 "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

hi everyone,looks like to me [if I am hearing right] we need to edit our bibles to accomodate chistians in comunist countries.My testimony can never change or contradict scripture. But what I am seeing is scripture being[supposedly] authenticated by someones experince.Most new testament truth is revelatory.We dont understand with our natural mind.Ex;"the word of God is foolishness to them that dont believe".I would be a post tribber in a heartbeat if it were not for so many scriptures to the contrary.Im my mind I MUST reconcile these other scriptures.you talk about floating on a cloud as if it were rediculous, was it also rediculous for Enoch Elija and Jesus? If I am going to sift through human suffering and use this as a backdrop to interpret the word,then surely we could never read the feeding of the 5000 in any country where people were starving because their starvation nullifies Gods word.....trying to be sweet,David

Hi Again,
JESUS CANT COME BACK TODAY!,according to post tribbers because the great tribulation has to happen first.How do you reconcile that in your mind.
The only way to reconcile the very different scriptures is that their is one messiah and two comings.To me the scripture is more clear on this than salvation.

How do you reconcile the coming in luke 17.26 which clearly happens in a time of worldly peace with a coming just after the tribulation? as described in:

Mat 24:29\tImmediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

\tMat 24:30\t\tAnd then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

How do you reconcile the immenant return of Christ with having to wait for a tribulation to happen?

Nobody who has been taught correctly about the pretrib view is waiting for an easy time of it in fact I would argue it should make christians work the harder.
If poeple in China or elswhere have been taught in correctly it still doesnt make the word incorrect.
Rgds Staff

Greetings everyone

Staff Wrote:

JESUS CANT COME BACK TODAY!,according to post tribbers because the great tribulation has to happen first.How do you reconcile that in your mind. The only way to reconcile the very different scriptures is that their is one messiah and two comings

There is another way!

There is just one second coming of the Messiah but two different groups of people:

1) Those who will be in the light, ready, awake and watching

2) Those who will be in the dark, slumbering and sleeping

Do the scriptures agree with this view? Yes it does...

[i][b]"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 THESSALONIANS 2:2-4)[/b][/i]

For some, it will be as a thief in the night, but for others it should not be like that...

...Jesus clearly spoke of the signs of His coming, and there will be those who will be watching and who will have prepared themselves as they remained awake and watchful. Unfortunately, there will also be those whom are not watching, but are fast asleep :-(

Love,

Stampe

Psalm asked:

are you saying the great and terrible day of the Lord is the same as the great tribulation?

No, I am saying they are two different events, and that the great tribulation preceeds the great and terrible day of the Lord.

And also I will like to say that I think the Apostle Paul got it right when he told the Thessalonians, that the day of the Lord and our gathering together unto Jesus would not come except there be a falling away first and the man of sin is revealed...

Of course it could also be that Paul did not think that neither he nor the Thessalonians qualified for the pre-tribulation rapture, but rather deserved to be left behind to face the persecution of the Anti-christ. If so, if the apostle Paul did not qualify for this pre-trib rapture, then who among us does?

It could also be that Paul did not mention the pre-trib rapture because it is secret... :-D

God bless,

Stampe

hi stampe, Do you think The great and terrible day of the Lord is the same as the rapture? This is the order of events as I see it; Jesus comes for his remnant bride[the rapture],while they are in heaven the ones left behind and all of mankind go through the trib. and great trib..the antichrist murders almost all the christians.the 5 wise virgins are exempt because they have kept their "oil" at the right level.[remember the marters "washed their robes"]also the marriage supper of the Lamb happens in heaven with the bride.Remember anyone that is physically on this earth [In posttrib. cenerio] never sees heaven. Then Jesus comes after the great trib. on white horses with the saints.Is this correct?......God bless,David

Dear David,
The view you have presented is the popular view of the Left Behind books and movies, but I believe this view not to be in accordance with scripture.

You asked me whether I believe that the rapture will take place at the great and terrible day of the Lord, and that will be a yes.

Just as when Lot left Sodom and Gomorra and Moses and his family entered the ark before the judgement fell, so will the righteous be taken out before the wrath of God is poured out upon this world.

So, where is the confusion? I believe the confusion has come with the assumption that the great tribulation and the great and terrible day of the Lord are the same, when they are not. According to Joel 2:31 the Sun shall be darkened and the moon turned into blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord, and according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29 the darkening of the sun and the moon takes place immediately after the tribulation...

Yes, the believers will be taken out before the wrath of God is poured out - we all believe that, but where we differ, is on whether the great tribulation is the wrath of God or not.

I believe that if we look at the seven seals in Revelation 6 we discover the sequence of events: There is a time of great tribulation with persecuted and martyred saints followed by the darkening of the sun and the moon at the sixth seal. After that, in accordance with Jesus words in Matt. 24:29-30, the powers of heaven and earth are shaken and then in Rev. 6:17 it says:

[i][b]"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"[/b][/i]

I hope by the grace of God I have been able to be clear.

God bless,

Stampe

You stated:

[i][b]First of all, show me in scripture where there is a "7 Year tribulation"?[/b][/i]

You have a good point. I am not sure there is a scripture that tells us point blank that the tribulation period is 7 years. That is not to say that it is not, but...

Jesus did mention a period of tribulation called the great tribulation, of which He told His disciples. From other scriptures in Daniel and Revelation we can see that this time is actually 1260 days or "a time, times and a half". This tribulation is to preceed the darkening of the sun and the moon and the great and terrible day of the Lord...

God bless,

Stampe

hi Stampe, I just went back and read rev,5-10. I still dont see what you are talking about.I mainly dont see how "the wrath of the Lamb" marks a change in anything except just what it says.I may be missing it but it doesent seem to usher in or out anything.It appears to me that Jesus is passing judgement on the inhabitants of earth,and is not tied to a rapture or his second coming.I think maybe you are making this pivotal when it is not.You take a shot at me through "left behind" books.I never looked at the events I have laid out as unscriptural,being that I got them from the bible.Anyway all I am trying to do is see what you are meaning by "the great and terrible day of the Lord" The fact that the sun and moon are connected still [to me] doesnt place on it the significance you ascribe to it.Am I wrong?....Thanks,David

Hi Stampe,
I would have to disagree again especially on the this:
[u][i][size=xx-small]
There is another way!

There is just one second coming of the Messiah but two different groups of people:

1) Those who will be in the light, ready, awake and watching

2) Those who will be in the dark, slumbering and sleeping

Do the scriptures agree with this view? Yes it does...[/size][/i][/u]

1Thess 2.24 doesnt help the post trib argument any because we have 2 choices: the two groups the ones ready and the ones not are Christian or One is Christian and one is not.
If we take the group as your say "Those who will be in the light, ready, awake and watching".What are they watching for?answer Christ's Return.When does it happen?according to you after the tribulation.
So Jesus still cant come back today because according to you the ready group are waiting for a post tribulation coming only.

My view of 1 thess 2.24 is that the not ready group are unsaved(this does not affect the rapture debate one way or the other as regards timing)
I think the post trib view doesnt get Christians ready for Christ's Return at all.
It gets them ready for tribulation but Christ said get ready for his return.The emphasis was on Christ not on tribulation.Getting ready for tribulation how do you do it?Run down to the local supermarket and horde tin beans!It still isnt reconciled post tribbers have to go through tribulation first.
Rgds Staff

Hi,
The tribulation or "the time of Jacob's Trouble" is three and a half yrs long and is the second half of Daniel's Seventh wk.The first half I believe is called the "beginning of sorrows".

As for the day of the lord, the passage below describes two days rather than one.The "great" day is one and the "dreadful" day is another.I believe it is called telescoping for some reason. The great day was the day he died on the cross and more generally the 3 and a half yr ministry of Jesus.The dreadful day is the 3 and a half yr tribulation period.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

However to some people Christs 1st coming was dreadful and Christs Second Coming will appear great to some people in smaller measure.
So Elijah must come again,we can see this fulfilled in the two witness ministry of Revelations.
Rgds Staff

Hi,
To the best of my understanding below is a prophecy regarding the tribulation period.At the end its described as the time of Jacob's Trouble.

It could well mean the 7yr period but the trouble only starts after the abomination of desolations in the middle of the wk which is 3 and half yrs.The tribulation also happens straight after 1260days of the two witnesses.

Jer 30:4\t¶\tAnd these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

\tJer 30:5\t\tFor thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

\tJer 30:6\t\tAsk ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

\tJer 30:7\t\tAlas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

As for sorrows part I will look it up again for you but it comes from the sermon on the mount Matthew 24.8.I heard it called that somewhere but off hand I cant remember,let me research it again and come back to you,
Rgds Staff

Dear Staff,
Well, you are right in that the believer will be in the light, and the unbeliever will in the dark. But according to Jesus there will be some of His servants who will be ready, awake and watching, and some who will not. The evil servants who are not expecting His coming will be appointed their portion with the hypocrites (Read Matt. 24:42-51) It also says in Matt. 25:10 that those who were ready, who had oil in their lamps (whose light was shining) went in with Him to the marriage, but the foolish virgins who did not have oil in their lamps was left out...

I like your emphasis on looking for His coming. It is a very important one, but when Jesus in Matthew 24:32 said this about His coming:

[i][b]"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."[/b][/i]

...He actually included the great tribulation spoken of in verse 21. The great tribulation is part of "all these things" that they were to see before He came. So actually, the reason why one should even be ready and expect the time of tribulation which Jesus spoke of, is even because one is looking for His coming...

Isn't that also what the disciples asked Jesus? Didn't they ask Him for the signs of His coming?

God bless,

Stampe

Hi Stampe,
I argree with what you're saying regarding all these things and that the tribulation is part of it and that matthew 24.32 is about the second coming after the tribulation.You are right this coming is definitely post trib in my opinion.But after the rapture.
However this still doesnt add up with expecting Jesus to come at any time(immenant)as all of these events will have to have happened and can only be reconciled with having a rapture prior this time.
As far as the virgins waiting I think the Oil represents the Holy Spirit.You cannot enter without having been born of the Spirit.
Rgds Staff

Hi,
Altough they are not mentioned by name,one of them has all the characteristics of The ministry of Elijah especially the lenght of his ministry being 3and A half yrs and being able to withhold the rain.
Their is another scripture in the new testament regarding Elijah coming again:

t 17:9\t\tAnd as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

\tMat 17:10\t\tAnd his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

\tMat 17:11\t\tAnd Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

\tMat 17:12\t\tBut I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13\t\tThen the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Do you see what Jesus Said he shall come first but he already has come.One is in the future and one is in the past.As far as I can gather it is generally accepted that Elijah will come again.
I find the blue letter bible handy [url=www.blueletterbible.org]www.blueletterbible.org[/url],
get your scripture verse and you can get many useful audio and text commentaries,
Rgds
Staff

Hi Compliments,
Yes I aggree with you in the scripture you qouted below mentions only one coming but in the scripture I qouted 2comings are mentioned.The fact that it is not mentioned below in Matthew 11.7 does not nullify what Jesus said about the ministry of Elijah in Matthew 17.11.If we used that criteria for scripture we would have nullify alot of prophecy!

....................................................
Matthew 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hea

..................................................
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
..................................................
This was said after his imprisonment and death yet he was talking about Elijah coming in the future
Rgds Staff

I suggest something quite different from what you've already heard and believe. Just something different.

When you want to figure out the interuptation on the 'two witnesses' in the book of Revelation Ch.11.

Read Ch.11 with Ch.12 & 13. See if you see any parallels. If so, you might have come across an ancient belief. That the fact of the two witnesses are in fact, Jews and Gentiles. That they represent two people groups.

Again, don't take my word from it, just try to see it in Scripture and then if it ultimatly doesn't 'line up' with other Scriptures, please share.

I think I am post-trib only because the modern church is pre... and since they are wrong about everything else I kind of just went that way. lol

Concerning the rapture, does it occur before or after the First Resurrection?

1 Thess. 4
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Revelation 20
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

If the First Resurrection occurs in Revelation 20, then why do some 'expositors' see a 'rapture' in Revelation 4?

Dear JaySaved,
I have been wondering about that one as well! The scripture clearly teaches that the rapture and the first resurrection takes place at the same time, and this is a big problem for a pre-trib rapture.

If the rapture is to occur before the tribulation, we have to have a resurrection before the first resurrection! Hmmmm... :-?

God bless,

Stampe

I am perplexed,how do you hope interpret scripture based on your disgust of the church?What about the truth the church does stand for[TRINITY,COMMUNINION,BAPTISM,WORSHIP].We are all lopsided to a degree.We all deserately need each other. Nobody has the complete picture.I must have the rest of the body to function.The corinthian church was not cast off like a paper towel.They received the label"carnal".I am upset also with the modern church,but I am unwilling to put a blaket indictment on them.Most every church has a remnant of believers in it.This remnant is awesome! they love the Lord and they belong to Him.So if I lothe "the churches" am I loatheing Jesus?Again I have many,many objections to the church but to say "the churches are bad" In my opinion I have contiously[or not]said"Jesus is bad"..............Also I pesonally dont see how ascribing order or precident to "the first resurection" changes anything.you seem to clump people together to try and make your position more plausable.Does reconciling scripure make an individual a part of a group?Ex;-those dumb mindless rapure second rate people [probably read left behind books]. Its almost like the raprure is something bad in your mind? is this correct?....David

the last 4 "posters" seem to be "hi fiveing theemselves into next week".Just wanted to add my 2 cents. prob too stong as usual. will promise to do better......David

I agree........David

JaySaved wrote:
Concerning the rapture, does it occur before or after the First Resurrection?

1 Thess. 4
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Revelation 20
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

If the First Resurrection occurs in Revelation 20, then why do some 'expositors' see a 'rapture' in Revelation 4?

Wonderful post. I couldn't have said it better myself. 8-)

Hi,
Regarding Rev 20 and the First resurection.

The first resurection is a category not an event.
Included in that category are the saints who didnt worship the beast.They are ressurected at different times.Jesus is the first fruits.

4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a
thousand years.

What about these saints for instance:
Mat 27:52\t\tAnd the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

\tMat 27:53\t\tAnd came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

They had to be part of the first resurection but were not resurrected during the end time.
rgds staff

staff wrote:

The first resurection is a category not an event.
ncluded in that category are the saints who didnt worship the beast.

That doesn't even make sense.

Please speak english and not a 'copy-cat' theology.

is "caught up" and "the rapture" the same thing?When does Jesus come for his bride? Or Does Jesus ever come for his bride?.....David

staff,

Even if we include the saints brought to life in Matthew 27, scripture plainly teaches that the first resurrection occurs before the rapture.

by psalm1 on 2007/3/27 22:56:28

is "caught up" and "the rapture" the same thing?When does Jesus come for his bride? Or Does Jesus ever come for his bride?.....David

2 Thes. 2
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

The Second Coming of Christ is when Christians are gathered to Him. First, those who are dead in Christ, then we which are alive and remaining.

After this happens, there will be a Second Resurrection of the unbelievers.

ok,if I am hearing this right,the consensus is that resurection is the focus and basis for your position.Is this true? Also what about 1 thes4;17 it says caught up together with them.This"cathing up" or rapture ,is practically simultaneous With the "first resurrection".Litterally a couple of seconds apart.Look at the word "together".The reason I bring this up is ,I am wondering if you need a gap to make your position?For some reason you seem to focus on 2 resurrections.I have looked at this and read it but am having trouble understanding how you take up a posttrib or no rapture position......thanks,David

Is there a bride and is there a groom? I know its a dumb quesstion,but where does this tie into Jesus comming for his bride?To me we are overworking the school bus and the children without recogniseing the bus serves 2 purposes.1\\transportation 2\\destination.once they are in school the bus is forgotten.In other words timing is only part of the equation.Your car can go backwards and forewards.Without reverse your "Up a creek".My point is whats in the back of the book cant contradict the front or middle of the book. do you agree? ,David

Regardless of whether or not the First resurrection and rapture are a couple of seconds apart, the Bible plainly teaches that the First resurrection will happen before the rapture.

The reason I mentioned a second resurrection is because it is described in Revelation 20 as occurring 'at the end of the thousand years', whereas the First Resurrection occurred at the beginning of the 'thousand years'.

My position is that it is not taught in scripture that there will be a secret rapture of the church before a 7 year period of tribulation. It is not taught in scripture that at the end of the tribulation the First Resurrection will occur. I say this because a resurrection has already occurred before this so-called "first resurrection"

The only way to reconcile the pre-trib rapture position is to make the assumption that the First resurrection will occur in many stages and many different times. But if this is true, why doesn't Paul mention this in 1 Cor. 15 or 1 or 2 Thess?

Edit: Clarify my position
1 Cor 15:20-24, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Paul says that Christ has been resurrected and then those who are in Christ shall be resurrected at Christ's coming. Then comes the end. There is no multi staged first resurrection of believers mentioned here.

I have not looked as deeply as you have concerning the 2 resurections.But in order to "take a position" [as i guess we all prob. have]There are other factors.which are many.If you could lay aside "resurection" and look objectively at 1\\Jesus coming for his bride 2\\the 10 virgins 3\\the marriage supper 4\\the white horses 5\\reconciling the 5 foolish virgins 6\\reconciling the post or no rapture w\\ [they never see heaven] 7\\the antichrist wipes out almost all the christians. which makes me wonder "who are the[those that are alive and remain?] to catch up?There is NOTHING left out in the pre- trib position,but so many loose ends on the other positions.Am i wrong?.....thanks,David

Hi lovegrace,
Not much love grace in you're response i'm afraid and I can speak English.Also the theology is copied from the bible.To add you could have limited you're response to a scriptural response instead.

What I was saying was Jesus was the first to be resurrected,we also had the saints from the graves in Matthew,We then had the two witnesses In rev and also the saints who did not worship the beast.
These are four different groups/individuals that were resurrected at four different times and all had to be part of the first resurrection because they werent part of the second resurrection.
So we can't say that the first resurrection was a single event at a specific time.The saints who did not worship the beast were only part of the first resurrection.So you can see that I could now include the pretrib rapture has part of the first resurrection as well as the others above.
If you did not want to call the First resurrection a category,you could call it a series of resurrections that occured at different times'
staff

Hi Jaysaved,
Just wondering do you see a gap between verse 23 and 24.Twenty four seems to be talking about his millenial reign and the end is after that.If that is the case the "coming" mentioned in 23 could be the rapture, could it not.

1Cr 15:23\t\tBut every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

\t1Cr 15:24\t\tThen [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

\t1Cr 15:25\t\tFor he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

\t1Cr 15:26\t\tThe last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
rgds staff

Hi Jaysaved,
Just wondering do you see a gap between verse 23 and 24.Twenty four seems to be talking about his millenial reign and the end is after that. If that is the case the "coming" mentioned in 23 could be the rapture, could it not.

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

I do not see a gap in between verses 23 and 24 other than the fact that “after Christ comes; the end will come.” The question that must also be answered is if the Corinthians church would have seen a “gap” in between these two verses. I doubt they would.

When I read these verses I see that resurrections happen in the proper order. First, Christ. Then, those who resurrect at the coming of Christ spoken of in 1 Thess. 4. (Paul later in 1 Cor. 15 tells them exactly what he told the Thess about the ‘changing of those Christians who are alive at the coming of Christ.)

(If I were to take a literal millennial view)
Paul in these verses is saying that Christ was raised first. Then when Christ returns, all Christians who have died will be resurrected (and those alive will be changed). Then, Christ will immediately set up His millennial kingdom and reign till all enemies are destroyed, the last being death.

I don’t see any mention in these verses of a 7 year period of tribulation or a secret rapture. Or two comings of Christ 7 years apart.

Hey guys, haven't you ever read the "Left Behind" series???

I'm sure if you read them, they'd clear up any misunderstandings you have about the end-times ;-) :-P :knockedout:

j/k

But seriously now...
How does this effect us? How will/should this effect our relationship with God? I ask this in all seriousness, i'm curious, and i would like to know. I'm sure it does in some way effect the way we see life, but i'd like to hear how it's changed you guys! :-)

least of all,
~vico

But seriously now...
How does this effect us? How will/should this effect our relationship with God? I ask this in all seriousness, i'm curious, and i would like to know. I'm sure it does in some way effect the way we see life, but i'd like to hear how it's changed you guys!

When I began to see that Revelation was written by God as a picture of church history--written in code language--my faith began to grow even more! I always viewed Revelation as a dark and mysterious book of 1,000 lbs hail stones and a lake of blood that extends for many miles. I was either afraid to read it or I was too caught up into what 'others' had to say about it.

But this book was written to the church, for the church, concerning the church. God has told us beforehand everything that would happen in church history from the fall of pagan rome, to the blasphemies of the catholic popes, to the rise of Islam, the Turkish occupation of Constantinople, to the information age.

Instead of church history being a big scattered mess, I see it through the eyes of Revelation as all part of God's plan. It reaffirms that God is in control and we will see the end very soon.

Also, it reminds me that I should interpret scripture by scripture. No longer will I assume something to be true just because the "loudest expositor" says so.

My faith in Christ has grown and I eagerly await that blessed hope and glorious appearing of Christ. May He come quickly!!

Also, I must agree with what this person has said:

One particularly strange aspect of the Dispensational system is that the Messianic kingdom will involve 1000 years of mingling resurrected, glorified believers and non-resurrected, mortal men.
According to traditional dispensationalism the place of Christ's throne will be in literal Jerusalem on earth for a 1000 year political reign. J. Dwight Pentecost and Charles Ryrie write extensively that within the millennial kingdom there will be the glorified redeemed who came down from heaven with Christ, the saved mortals and the unsaved mortals who eventually rebel against Christ. In other words, for 1000 years these glorified people live without sickness, weakness, or death among unresurrected men and women who, though they live longer life spans, still get sick and die. And incredibly, these unresurrected mortals attempt to attack these 1000 year old, glorified immortal people!
This feature of dispensationalism is one of the most absurd.

http://fide-o.blogspot.com/2007/03/meer-immortals.html

Amen Brother!
Thats the kind of answer i was looking for!
I appreciate it.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

least of all,
~vico

vico and JaySaved.....What I find strange is that when I encounter people that have an opposing view, [I am pre- trib] 99% of the time I have to sort through their name calling and nasty little statements trying to keep the subject on the Word.They claim to have "the high ground" but talk down to, and stereotype anyone with an opposing view.I would like to say" Hey bro. show me where I am wrong".But then again, to take their position, would I also have to resort to their tactics? If ALL believers with the pretrib position got there from the left behind books,and this is etched in stone,then you truly are correct in every single aspect of scripure.You have never been wrong in your life,simply because a group of people read the left behind novels.I think the discussion is better addressed thgough scripture interpreting scripture. If I accuse you of something,I attach a stigma to you. I dont have to prove my point, all I have to do is get my "opponent" backpeddling.make them deal with a false stereotype instead of proving my position.......NOW WHAT ABOUT THE WHITE HORSES,THE BRIDE AND THE BRIDEGROOM,THE WEDDING SUPPER,THE 10 VIRGINS,1THES4;17,REV.7;14,NOT TO MENTOIN WHERE DO THESE CAUGHT UP ONES GO? ON A CIRCLE BACK TO EARTH?.......Trying to be nice,David

David this is for you. I hope you do not mind the length. I hope that I have not responded in an incorrect manner to you. If I have let me know.

Now to the issues you raised. Let’s take this one at a time:

1. White horses
Revelation 19:11-15, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

The armies which were in heaven could mean Christians or it could mean angels. What does Jesus say? In Mark 13:24-27 Jesus says, “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
What does Paul say? 1 Thess 4:15-17, “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Jesus also says in Matthew 13:36-42, “Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
So, the armies of Heaven are clearly angels and not saints.

2. The 10 Virgins
The parable of the 10 virgins can be summed up by Jesus’ words in Matthew 25:13, “Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” The bride is to be ready because the coming of the Lord is compared to a thief in the night. Paul says in 1 Thess. 5:2-4, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”
Matthew 24:42-44, “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
2 Peter 3:10, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Jesus tells the church of Sardis in Revelation 3:2-4, “Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”
Revelation 16:15 says, “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”
So we see that we must be ready at all times for the Lord to come. However, we can know when He is coming because we are watching and waiting. As Paul said, we will not be caught off guard because we are not in darkness. That day will not overtake us as a thief.

3. Bride and Bridgroom and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb
I include these both together because they are closely linked. Revelation 19:7-11,14 says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war…And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”
Notice what these verses say and what they do not say. What they say is that the marriage of the lamb is come because the wife is ready. Then there is a blessing: blessed are they which are called to the marriage supper. Then Jesus comes out of heaven to the Earth with the armies of heaven. What happens next? See my first point.
Notice what these verses do not say. They do not say that the bride is in heaven. The verses simply say that the time has come for the marriage of the Lamb. The marriage comes when Jesus goes to get His bride.

4. 1 Thess. 4:17
Jesus will return and the dead in Christ will be raised first, then we which are alive and remaining will be caught up to the air to meet Jesus. Nothing secret about it, in fact Paul says that Jesus will give a shout and their will be a trumpet call. Not very secret at all.

5. Revelation 7:14
“And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Jesus says in Matthew 24:21, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” What period of time is He referring to? Let us go back to Matthew 24:15, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)” What did Daniel say about the abomination of desolation? Daniel 9:26-27, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
Daniel refers to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as the abomination that causes desolation. Luke backs this up in Luke 21:20, “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”
So we see that the great tribulation is the period of time in which Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in 70 AD. Therefore we interpret Rev. 7:14 as those faithful Christians who persevered through this time period.

6. Where do these caught up ones go? On a circle back to earth?
It doesn’t matter where we go because 1 Thess 4:17 says, “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Wherever the Lord goes…I am going! Halleluiah!

Also, you mentioned Luke 21:36, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
This refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. Notice in verse 32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

Generation can mean race but it is forcing that definition in this verse. Jesus was telling those around Him that Jerusalem would be destroyed in their lifetime. Jesus wants them to be on guard, watch, pray and remember verses 20-22 spoken earlier:
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

Hope this answers your questions.

They claim to have "the high ground" but talk down to, and stereotype anyone with an opposing view

Brother David, i only meant the Left Behind thing as a joke, but i guess thats what i get for joking, huh.

From my heart i apologize. i honestly didn't mean to "talk down" on you. And i didn't mean to stereotype anybody. i do give people that impression a lot though. i don't know... maybe God's trying to show me that thats whats really in my heart. Please brother, accept my apology, i don't want anything to hinder the unity of the brethren.

Your brother in Christ,
the least of all,
~victor

vico, hey bro. apology geatefully accepted!thanks!........God bless,David

One particularly strange aspect of the Dispensational system is that the Messianic kingdom will involve 1000 years of mingling resurrected, glorified believers and non-resurrected, mortal men.

Since Christ was on this present Earth for 40 days in a glorified state, why is it hard to believe such a thing could happen for 1000 years?

Since Christ was on this present Earth for 40 days in a glorified state, why is it hard to believe such a thing could happen for 1000 years?

Does this mean that the glorified believers will only appear to certain people during the 1,000 years, as Jesus only appeared to certain people.

But, honestly the reason why it is so hard to believe is because the Bible does not teach it.

Does this mean that the glorified believers will only appear to certain people during the 1,000 years, as Jesus only appeared to certain people.

No. Christ however, is not the only example. Various saints of old were resurrected after Christ was, and appeared publicly throughout Jerusalem.

But, honestly the reason why it is so hard to believe is because the Bible does not teach it.

It actually does teach it. There are still people alive on the earth when Christ returns. Nowhere is it taught in Revelation that these people are tossed into hell with Satan and the anti-Christ for 1,000 years. If one does not believe that there are unglorified individuals living on Earth after the return of Christ, individuals whom Christ must rule over with a rod of iron, then one must believe that the nations Satan deceives at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ are glorified saints, and are individuals at risk for the second death.

That is why I am leaning towards Amillennialism.

JaySaved Thank you for your explaination,I think you and I are looking at end timesfrom different perspectives.to me the climax of the ages is the union of the bride and Jesus.I see all things comming up to and leading from this event.It seems you order the events with equal importance.I believe this is our fundamental difference.Jesus is comming for his bride and it appears to me that the marrisge is in heaven. If you re-read rev,19;7 it says WIFE. the white horses happen after the marriage.There are so many things to look at differently than your position.As far as the angels on horses ,I dont see any angels on horses.as far as secret rapture I never said that. I dont know if it is secret or not.If you look at the 10 virgins closely you see 5 were not permitted to enter into the room.The 5 that went did not "about face."Concerning rev 7;14 - why were their robes dirty? they were the 5 foolish virgins killed by antichrist.They missed the marriage supper but not the white horses.I hope you will comment on this view!....Thanks,David

Hi Jaysaved,
Just caught a little behind in the current conversation but going back to 1 cor 15:23 TO 26.
To put down all his enemies and rule,authority and power he would have to have reigned through the millenium so that he could give it to the father.So the end here could not mean straight after his coming in the sense of that very hour because he would have to have reigned a thousand years.So there must be a gap of a millenium between 23 and the time he gave up all to the father.
Also are you saying you dont think their is either a tribulation period or a rapture?I would like to hear your time line of events simply put.
rgds staff

No. Christ however, is not the only example. Various saints of old were resurrected after Christ was, and appeared publicly throughout Jerusalem.

Did Jesus have a glorified body or His resurrected natural body? Remember He showed Thomas the nail scars in His hands. Surely this isn't a glorified body or else we will all have the same scars we have now.

Also, were the various saints in Matthew given glorified bodies? I don't think it says.

Also are you saying you dont think their is either a tribulation period or a rapture?

I see the tribulation period as the time around 70 AD in which Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by the Romans. See point #5 on my earlier post on 2007/3/29 at 13:13. I believe in the rapture as described in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, but I disagree that it occurs before the tribulation because of point #5.

I would like to hear your time line of events simply put.

Around 33 AD, Jesus said to His disciples, “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” (John 14:1-4) After Jesus’ resurrection, He was telling the Disciples—minus Judas—that they are to be His witnesses to all the world. “And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)
Jesus promised that He would return for all His believers and the angel confirmed this promise. This “blessed hope and glorious appearing” (Titus 2:13) of Christ is what we as Christians are waiting for and in the meantime the grace of God is “training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age” (Titus 2:12)
Paul told all his churches about this returning of Jesus for His bride and naturally this raised some important questions. One of the first being: “What about those Christians who die before Christ returns? Do they miss out? Paul tells the Thessalonian church, “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18)
Another question was raised concerning the time concerned the time it would occur. Jesus has been very vague concerning when He would return and Christians wanted to know the “times and seasons” (i.e., tell us exactly when we should expect the return of Christ so we can be ready then. Paul tells the Thessalonians, “Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.” (1 Thess. 5:1-11)
Paul says that the return of Christ will be suddenly and without warning. He uses the same example as Jesus in that His return will be “like a thief” in Luke 12:37-40, “Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants! But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into. You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Jesus tells us to be ready and waiting for His coming at any moment and that we should not be caught off guard.
This caused an alarm for some Christians in the Thessalonian church and they became very anxious about being ready. This was fueled by false reports claiming to be from Paul saying that the Lord had recently returned and that they had missed it. They were not ready and this terrified them. Paul sought to reassure them in his second letter to the Thessalonian church. He writes, “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
Paul tells them not to be alarmed by false reports and do not be deceived. It is true that Jesus will come unexpectedly and suddenly, but remember what I told you earlier in my letter “For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” (1 Thess 5) Paul tells them that Christians will not be surprised by the Lord’s coming. Then Paul outlines certain things that must come first before Christ returns: 1) Apostasy in church 2) The man of sin in the church—a Judas like false teacher, a son of perdition. 3) False signs and wonders so that those who are perishing will believe a lie.
Peter also speaks of the Lord’s coming and addresses another question: “If the Lord is coming, where is He?” Peter says, “This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.” (2 Peter 3:1-10). Peter tells us that Jesus has not returned yet because He is patient waiting for all who will believe to believe. This is also mentioned by Paul in Romans 11:25-27, “Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Jesus will come once the “fullness of the Gentiles has come in and to remove the hardening placed on Israel. In this all Israel will be saved! This is the reason why Peter says that Jesus is being patient. Peter let’s us know he is speaking of the same thing Paul is because in 2 Peter 3:15-16, “And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”
So where does this leave us who are alive in 2007? (I will continue this in another post.)

David,

Wife in Revelation 19:7 is Gune According to Strong's:
Definition
1. a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
2. a wife
1. of a betrothed woman

Wife can refer to a woman who is betrothed but who has not yet gone through the marriage ceremony. For example:

Matthew 1
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This fits Revelation 19 in which the bride is betrothed to the bridegroom and Jesus is returning to earth to gather His bride to Himself.

Continued from previous post… (some of this is from a post I made recently.) I know it is long, but it describes how I view the end times as the Bible teaches.

So where does this leave us who are alive in 2007?
First, let us look at the events Paul described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.”

Paul says that the “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him (the day of Christ)” will not happen until there is a “falling away” first. This falling away is in regards to the church. Paul is saying that an apostasy is coming in the church and many professing Christians will turn from the truth.

Then Paul says that the ‘man of sin’ will be revealed. Notice that Paul called the man of sin the ‘son of perdition’? Who else was called a ‘son of perdition’? John 17:12: “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

Who is Jesus referring to? Judas. Judas was a disciple of Christ in Jesus’ inner circle but was a false brother. Paul is clearly connecting the ‘man of sin’ with Judas. Paul is not saying that Judas will return and exalt himself, but that the ‘man of sin’ will be like Judas in that he will be in the church. Paul also says that this man of sin will exalt himself above God.

This man of sin is a greater manifestation of what was already at work in the church. This “spirit of antichrist” was already at work during John's time. He says in 1 John 2:18-19, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Who is John referring to? False believers in the church. Here is one example John gives in 3 John 1:9, “I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.” Also, Paul, Peter and Jude spend much time discussing False Teachers.

Paul then says about the ‘man of sin’, “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”

This ‘man of sin’ will be in the “spirit of antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. Paul says “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way” The spirit of antichrist was already at work in the church during Paul’s and John’s life. This spirit was in the form of false teachers in the church “And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

Paul says that this spirit of iniquity and antichrist is already in the church but is restrained. What or who is the restraint? Many Christians differ on this. Some think it is the Holy Spirit who will be removed during the rapture, but I do not believe this. The Holy Spirit acts as a restraint against sin, but often is ignored when one slides away from closeness with God. Also, remember Stephen. Stephen was full of the Spirit and all it got him was death. If he had not had the spirit they would have left him alone. So, I do not believe Paul is referring to the Holy Spirit, I believe Paul is referring to the Roman Government.

Edgar Parkyns says in his study of Church History that persecution is God’s instrument to purify His church. For example, when there is no persecution, people who are not sincere will rise into leadership and teach false doctrine. But, when persecution comes, these people are the first to leave. Those who remain in persecution are true followers of Christ and the church is pure. So, I believe that Paul is referring to the Roman government as “him who restrains”. Paul says this restraint will be removed and when it is removed the man of sin will be revealed. Has anything like this happened in history? Yes it has. It is just that we do not want to see it. When the Roman pagan government fell, the persecutions stopped. In fact, the Roman government adopted Christianity as its state religion. You might think this was a good thing but it was not. People were forced to join the church, up until this time a person entered the church through belief, now people are joining for gain. Eventually a "man of sin who exalts himself above God" entered the church in the position of Pope. I know it is unpopular to say that the office of pope is the antichrist/man of sin but what else can a true believer make of it?

Why do I say the antichrist to come is an office and not a particular man? Because 'man of sin' can refer to more than one person just as 'man of God' refers to all Christians. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Brothers and sisters, Paul is not telling us to look for a leader of a revived secular roman government, he was telling the church at Thessalonica that they have not missed the coming of the Lord because the man of sin has not appeared. He is also telling us today that we are to look out for false teachers and to remain true to scripture. We are to keep ourselves clean in this world through God and look for our blessed hope and the glorious revealing of Christ in the Second Coming. May He come quickly!

Condensed version of what I have stated in the longer two emails.

1. Jesus promised He would return for all believers (John 14:1-4)
2. Jesus will keep that promise even though some say He has forgotten. (2 Peter 3:9)
3. Jesus will return like a thief. It will be sudden and catch non-believers off guard, but Christians will not be caught off guard. (1 Thess. 5; 2 Peter 3)
4. Jesus will return to gather His followers: those who are dead first, then we which are alive and remain will be called up. (1 Thess 4:17)
5. Those raptured and resurrected will receive immortal bodies and be with the Lord forever. (1 Cor. 15:35-49)
6. The present heavens and earth will be destroyed (2 Peter 3:10)
7. God will judge all who have ever lived. (Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 20:11-12)
Note:For those who only think that the Bema seat only refers to rewards see Matthew 27:19 and John 19:13
8. Those whose names are in the book of life will be given eternal life with God. (Rev 20)
9. Those whose names are not in the book of life will be eternally banished into hell. (Rev 20)
10. The new heavens and new earth will be created and the believers will forever be with God. (Rev 21)

I am back and forth on this issue, but as of today in my studies I do not see a literal 1,000 period in which Jesus will reign in Jerusalem exalting the nation of Israel. I do not see a period of time in which Christians in glorified bodies are hanging around people in non-glorified bodies. I believe that the 1,000 year period signifies a long period of time…as does Peter in 2 Peter 3 and David in Psalm 90:4. Also compare Eccl. 6:6 with Eccl. 6:3

Hi Jaysaved,
Thanks for going to such trouble and giving a detailed answer which I am still digesting.
On the literal 1000yr period;When will Christ rule with a rod of Iron if not in a literal millenium.?It wont be in eternity because he wont need to rule with force.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
I will read you're answer in more detail and come back to you,
rgds staff

Jaysaved,in my greek bible if you read that in context ,in order to make your meaning fit you would have to dismantle several verses in chapter 19.verse 7 says the marriage CAME past tense and wife means wife and thats in context. She has on fine linen just like the saints on the horses. The order of events is clear. Wife in heaven, which means marriage supper is in heaven,wife clothed in fine linnen, riders on horses also have on fine linnen then they go with Jesus to slay the wicked on earth.
Now you say the supper is on earth.....But it is the supper of vultures eating the flesh of the wicked.See rev19;17-18. The marriage supper is clearly in heaven......thanks,David

True or False:

Jesus is currently on David's throne.

What does Peter say?
Acts 2
22"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- 23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

"'I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'

29"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

"'The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35until I make your enemies your footstool.'

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

When Jesus ascended into heaven and sat down at the right hand of the Father...did He begin to reign on the throne of David?

JaySaved,Ive got a feeling this is a trick question.Ive never looked at it from this angle. I know David is the forerunner of Jesus.And I think David came out of Judah But would have to look it up. Just off the bat I would say it is the other way around-Davids throne pointed to Jesus throne.Is this key to something I am missing?....Maybe I dont undertand the question..What do you think?...let me know, David

In 2 Samuel 7, God makes David a promise:
"12When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.'"

We see here an immediate fulfillment in Solomon, but an ultimate fulfillment in Jesus. There is even a picture of the crucifixion in here. (Not that Jesus sinned, but that sin was placed on Him.)

Psalm 132:11 says, "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne."

Also, in Luke 1:31-32, "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

So we see that Jesus is the fulfillment of the "seed who will sit on David's throne forever". Peter said in Acts 2:

25For David says concerning him,

"'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. 28You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'

29"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

So, Jesus is the one to sit on David's throne and rule with a "rod of iron".

The question is: Is Jesus currently on the throne or not?

Brothers and Sisters,
Does it really matter as long as we are going?

I agree that it is not wise to spend too much time thinking about this so that we are neglecting some more pressing issues--naming the lost around us. But, it is always very profitable to spend time praying, thinking, and discussing these topics.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Two observations:

1) When we proof text (as you have done) we tend to ignore other parts of scripture which help the text your "proof texting" make sense... and sometimes the parts you're ignoring tend to offer a different interpretation than the one you're trying to put forth.

2) You say "please include scripture", which is great. Scripture is the final authority on all things. Yet, especially in this case, there are so many different thoughts about this subject that what you're going to end up with is a bunch of folks interpretting the same scriptures 3 different ways.

I'm not sure if you're trying to propogate your own thoughts about this subject (which is fine, thats part of why we're here), or if you seeking an answer to something you dont understand. But there never seems to be a definative answer to this issue that satisfies everyone.

I am pre-trib. But I am not dogmatic about it because I have heard some convincing arguments from the other side... but not enough to bring me over.

But ultimately... it makes not one bit of difference what I think about it, or you think about it. God is the One in control, and it's His plan. Our jobs as soldiers in His army is not to worry about the big picture, but rather to be obedient to His command... Go! And make disciples.

So... debate away. Personally I think that although this is an interesting topic, debating it for any length of time is pointless and a waste of time. It's not a sin, moral or salvation issue.

But I'll not judge anyone who does wish to debate it. :-)

Krispy

Right on! Exactly!

Ben brockway, I agree whole heartedly. I am new to this forum and just like the challenge it offers. Its nice to be able to "kick " things around.I suppose we could never have everyone agree.
I havent gone into the arcives but im sure this topic is overworked.krispy said it well.I was hoping to "reveal" what I personally consider important aspects that I havent heard mentiond.Namely the white horses,the10 virgins,the marriage supper And the bride and bride groom.Im sure i can do this at a later date. Thanks , David

Does it really matter as long as we are going?

It only matters if you believe a Christian should study the Bible. If we don't study the Bible how do we know we are going? And how would we know "where?"

I didn't know how to reply so I inadvertently started two new threads please see
1. Church Age and
2. End of 69th Week
Threads which are supposed to be attached to this thread. Thanks and God Bless.

Wynner01

Sorry staff, I didn't have much time to respond. I.e computer problems.

Sorry if my post was 'too harsh' I've been working on this, currently with my walk in Christ. I just didn't understand your post. I'm sorry for speaking the truth without love.

So, staff, it seems that you believe that there are multiple 'raptures'. (Nothing wrong with it, I don't even understand my position.)

If you did not want to call the First resurrection a category,you could call it a series of resurrections that occured at different times'

If more clarifying is needed please do so.

Someone asked 'why is pre. vs. post important?'

This is why I think this study is important.

Rev. 22:10-15 (NASB)

10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and [b]My reward is with Me,[/b] [u]to render to every man according to what he has done.[/u]

13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

14 [b]Blessed are those who wash their robes,[/b] so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

15 [u]Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. [/u]

The end times study should bring us to repentance.

But today this study is confused and when something isn't fully understood, it's difficult to convey.

If we say, "Hey, Christians get to leave the wrath." It might cause people to repent. Or, "Hey, Christians must perserve through the wrath." Tells us to be prepared to endure.

One gives escape, the other gives endurance.

I think it's important to know because we get a glimpse of the future and what we will face or leave.

My position is still up for grabs. :-P

Hi Lovegrace,
No prob sorry about my response also,
love in Jesus,
staff

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:4,5

Praise the Lord, it is so good to see brethren seriously considering the Scriptures--especially that which relates to the end times. My friend (brother) asks if it matters if we study these things. I suppose the implication is that our walk with the Lord is a "no fault" experience, wherein our actions do not matter.
Yet, here in Jesus' famous "bread and butter" passage on His returning, He opens the discussion with an admonition to beware, lest we be deceived. Why?
I hope you get the drift, here. Note as well, Christ's opening comments in the very next chapter. In that chapter He says specifically that the Kingdom of Heaven will then (now) be like ten virgins. Don't look for a commentary to give you an interpretation of this parable. Its ramifications are too disturbing for those who are "sleeping." Who are the "virgins"?? (Sorry, that would start a whole new discussion.)
Simply put, Christ says that half of those who are waiting for Him "virgins" --miss out (see 2 Cor. 11:2).
The solution? Paul addresses the issue in the same exact context, in 1 Thes. 5 (following a similar discussion on the rapture in the 4th chapter) --by saying, "Let us not sleep, as do others." (vs. 6).
How shall we accomplish this? By watching and being sober (i.e. serious) about our commitment to Him (second half of the verse).
To answer the question. Yes, definitely, it does make a difference. What you truly value, you watch over, and seek to protect. Since that is your treasure (what you truly value) you spend time watching over it. You might say that it "keeps you awake" at night. :)
Be blessed in Jesus.

It does seem significant that the above quote does not contain any specific Scripture. It also posits that Scripture that is read is relative, bland, and without specific point(??).
I would like to answer the original question on giving Scriptural basis for a post trib position. Consider Christ's admonition recorded in Matthew 24.

"28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew 24:28-31

Please try to resist the bland excuse of saying that Christ is addressing only the Jews, and not the Gentiles, as well (I haven't read as 100+ posts, so I don't know if this has yet arisen in the discussion. Forgive, or consider mine, if it hasn't). For if Jesus is here addressing the Jews alone--is He also addressing them, alone, when He gave the Sermon on the Mount? (How about 1 Thes. 2:1-3 which is addressed specifically to a Gentile fellowship?)
Having come this far, allow another serious thought to ponder. It is this-- that a sleeping Church (as Christ warns about in the 25th chapter) allows Antichrist to arise (the exact same context as Paul's comments to Thessalonica, in chapter 2:1-3).

An excellent posting, especially regarding apostasy in the Church. Obviously, you have spent considerable time studying this subject Bro. JaySaved (like the name, too). Two thoughts:
1) Christ admonishes us to watch. Should this not have a specific object? Yes, there are many antichrists (1 Jn. 2:18) but as there were many saviors (in a sense) before the ultimate Savior, so too, there will be many prototypes before the actual Antichrist, himself, arises.
2) In considering prophecy, I do not see any reference to John's Revelation. When looking forward to the Antichrist, should we not be seriously studying the number one, most detailed, reference on the subject in Holy Writ? If this be so, then we will soon notice that the most detailed portion of John's Apocalypse focuses on those chapters 13-19 --where "the beast" arises, whose side kick (commonly called the false prophet) will issue the Mark of the Beast.
OK. Take a deep breath. I've not noticed this mentioned on the posts (haven't read them all!). Yet my point is this: The mark of the beast points towards a cashless society, does it not? Do we, or do we not, see this coming over the horizon?? Is the Internet not a part of this coming fulfillment (how else could we have universal cashless exchanges, without some kind of electronic infrastructure in place)??
Revelation thirteen is a fascinating topic--and very sobering. Yet, we must acknowledge that the fulfillment of said Scripture requires worship of a particular individual (as in all dictatorial societies)--for such adds unity and structure to the governing body--as well as a focal point for society's affections. As Hitler led the wave of evil, during WWII, so too will Antichrist lead the charge against God Himself, in the coming Tribulation (1 Thes. 2:4, Rev. 13:5).

almost all of scripture points to post. the hebrews were delivered through the red sea,through the wilderness,and through thethe jordan.they were delivered through captivity thtough drought, through apostacy. in escat. daniel told neb. his dream about the icon where neb. was the head of gold. the next chapter has a threat of tribulation a chance of rapture or deliverance from this trib. abeast to bow down to and the hebrew children were delivered through the fire,not from the firey furnace. a few chapters later,daniel was delivered through the lions den. the psalmist said although i walk through the valley of the shadow of death i will fear no evil.i could go on speaking about Jesus who asked the Father to deliver Him from the bitter cup but He endured the cross and the wrath of His Father for us.

I am reading is "The Crucible and the Crown: The Church in the Tribulation" by Louis Moesta.

He's right up my alley because he does not attack anyone in the Pre-Trib camp or any camp, he just submits his evidence Biblically. So if you are looking for a good book on the subject, I highly recommend this.

God bless,
Lisa

http://www.amazon.com/Crucible-Crown-Church-Tribulation/dp/0967354803

"I am back and forth on this issue, but as of today in my studies I do not see a literal 1,000 period in which Jesus will reign in Jerusalem exalting the nation of Israel. I do not see a period of time in which Christians in glorified bodies are hanging around people in non-glorified bodies. I believe that the 1,000 year period signifies a long period of time…"

SO, then how do you explain the resurrection of those that had been beheaded for the cause of Christ who reigned with him a thousand years? Revelation 20:4-6 NASB

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

???

"almost all of scripture points to post"

I cannot find even one.

Please show me one outside of Mat 24

"The persecuted church does not hold to a pretrib rapture"

This makes no sense whatsoever.We are persecuted for preaching the gospel/following Jesus.

The bridegroom is comming for his bride.See the parable of the 10 virgins.

The 5 that were "locked out" are the ones left behind.

Here they are in heaven;
Rev 7; 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

...........13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

It is prophesied in rev that the antichrist kills all the christians left behind that fail to worship him or take the mark;
Rev 13;7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

All thew saints die during the trib.So how can anyone possibly hold the position of a post trib rapture?

Look closely at this passage;

Rev13;16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

"ALL" not some,but ALL DO RECIEVE THE MARK.

"NO MAN" Not some,but NO MAN SHALL BUY OR SELL.

Now how in the world do some people see a "OVERCOMMING" church in this?

Post trib has us to believe the "true church" is right in the middle of all this antichrist rule,which it is,with their necks on the chopping block.
Obviously the one left behind are martyred,and are pictured in rev. before the throne.

Note that their robes were "dirty" but washed in the blood.

The filth of their failure as watchmen(5 foolish virgins),which caused their being left behind,is now washed at martyrdom

"Notice what these verses do not say. They do not say that the bride is in heaven. The verses simply say that the time has come for the marriage of the Lamb. The marriage comes when Jesus goes to get His bride."

Have you read in the scriptures;"29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
Mat 26

The bride is in heaven after the rapture.Jesus even prophesied this at the last supper.

Note that in rev 19 she is no longer the bride,but the wife,indicating the consummation has happened,in heaven,according to Jesus' prophecy.

"He's right up my alley because he does not attack anyone in the Pre-Trib camp or any camp, he just submits his evidence Biblically."

I wonder what he would say to this scripture?;
luke 21,36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Blaine, I agree with you. For ten years i listened to these scriptures being used in a loose way. Then i picked up the Word of God and began to investigate the claims as well. I too found it VERY uncanny that this theory did not come about till 1840. And through reading the olivet discourses and the Gospel of John i definetly do not attend to the pretrib theory. If Jesus says many times in the Gospel of John, "I will raise him, you, up at the last day", then how does the secret rapture of the Christians fit in with His words? That would make the rapture the second coming, right?

"This suggest that believers will go through the tribulation."
Does not suggest any such thing.

Let us read what is says."3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

How in the world does this verse deny a pretrib rapture?

Are you saying that in the event that the anticrist is REVEALED 10 minutes before the rapture the pretrib position is nullified?

The antichrist could be revealed way before he comes to power.The unbelievers are oblivious and mocking of any warning anyway.
2Thes 2;8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

"The drawback of this teaching is there is no teaching of taking up your cross to follow Jesus. One is simply taught have your ticket and your are beamed up to heaven just like Capt Kirk away from the bad ole tribulation."

Too bad you take such a low path of mocking those that read their bibles and take Jesus at his word.
Have you ever used scripture instead of mocking to establish your position?

You are basically accusing the 5 wise virgins of evil.

"One can go to the restricted nations today and not hear teaching on a pretrib rapture."

One can go to restricted nations and hear all kinds of false doctrine.
Doesn't change the way my bible reads.
What a shame to verify what God says through one's perception of another's experience

There is no way anyone knows what is NOT heard in other nations anyway.

I would never,ever base my bible's authority on such a premise.

by staff on 2007/3/21 16:21:48 writes:

"How do you reconcile the coming in luke 17.26 which clearly happens in a time of worldly peace with a coming just after the tribulation? as described in:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

How do you reconcile the immenant return of Christ with having to wait for a tribulation to happen?"

I did not see any posts on the mid tribulation rapture position.

Having studied these 3 raptures theories for many years, I came to the follow conclusion:

All three positions are correct. The one that you personally believe in is the one that you will be raptured in.

As for me, luckily it just happens to be that I am a strong believer in a Pre-tribulation rapture. I will be keeping tabs in Heaven on all you mid and post - Tribbers. Hang in there. :)

In Corinthians, his earliest letters, Paul expressed his belief that the Tribulation was imminent, so much so that he discouraged Christians from Marrying so as to avoid suffering the pain of having ones spouse or Children suffering before their eyes during the Tribulation. In his latter letters Paul backed off of his initial position of the 'imminent' Tribulation.

On a less serious matter, I had a dream revealing what the rapture is like. Our Spirits go straight up to Heaven. There are two gates through which formerly married men enter Heaven. One was for henpecked husbands, this was a very very long line of men who were just raptured. And the second Gate were for the non-henpecked men, men who were masters of their homes. This was a very short line.

I was standing on the very short line. I received a telepathic message from a life long friend who was Henpecked. I couldn't see him he was way back in his line, it probably will take months for him to get into Heaven. He asked how I merited getting onto the non-henpecked married man line. I sent a telepathic message back to him. I said, "I do not know, my wife told me to stand here." :)

Once I got into Heaven, and it is fantastic, but I noticed there was a great and long wall in Heaven. An angel was assigned to me for orientation. So I asked my assigned angel, why a wall? What is on the other side of that wall? The Angel responded, in lightening speed, and gave me understanding. On the other side of the wall were all the saved Catholic Christians. And the WALL is there because if they knew all the non-Catholic Christians are also in Heaven, it just would not be Heaven for them. :)

We try to imagine how the future will be, how will it all turn out. And all I can offer is something that William Shakespeare wrote: "There are more things in heaven and earth, ... Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

And I do not comment on the Book of Revelation because I do not understand its' prophecies at all.

"I have another problem with this pretrib view. The fact that part of the body is in heaven having a party while those poor souls that have been left behind are just trying to hang on until Jesus comes in the general resurrection. Whereas we would say that Tim LaHayes Left Behind serious is fiction, that is what this view is, fiction."

The word of God is clear.There are those who deal with anticrist.It is also clear he kills them all.

Rev13;
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Tim Lahay may help you in some way,but it is a shame you base your doctrine primarily apart from the word.

Over the years I have heard a hundred times things like
"those in prisons are not going to believe in the rapture"

"The rapture folks are just escape minded"

"The rapture folks are going to go down when they find out they do go through the tribulation"

They speak not of their own discipline and responsibility,and instead mock those that believe what Jesus says.I suppose they seek sanctuary in pointing the finger and falsely judging the saints that are keeping pure and watching for their groom.How sad to base their doctrine on such folly.

In other words 99% of Christians look at end times through the prism of the great tribulation.

Jesus,on the other hand,looks to the wedding and gathering of his bride.

This view from Jesus' perspective,is the relevant issue.

Forget the tribulation.It has a purpose,and that purpose is made clear by the word.Focus instead on the bridegroom and his plan for his bride.

Those that mock pretribbers seem to shy away from Jesus purpose with his bride.

I wonder what kind of apology will be made for those saints that died,and never went through the great tribulation?

Will they be punished for escaping?

Surely they were never "purified" like the tribulation saints.

One can see the folly of thinking anything other than the blood of Jesus makes us worthy.

hi, did you notice that the hebrew children were in the furnace heated 7 times hotter that killed some who put them there and they were not burned and did not have the smell of smoke upon them for Jesus was in there with them.

psalm1 wrote:
I wonder what he would say to this scripture?;
luke 21,36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

There is a whole chapter on “The Wrath of God.” I will type out the concluding 2 paragraphs of this chapter instead of pasting the WHOLE thing!! :) (It is 2 paragraphs, I was the one who separated it for easier reading!)

------------------------------------------

We now can draw certain conclusions. First, God has not destined the believer to the eternal wrath of hell, or separation from Him, but to the glory of eternal salvation. The Word sets these two destinies in opposition to each other on a number of occasions. This is the wrath He promises to keep us from.

Second, His plague wrath is directed against rebels-the disobedient and unbelieving. He can single out the unbelievers and seal the believers.

Third, when He strikes nature, there may be occasions of inconvenience or suffering as a byproduct even for believers, just as the opposite has been true through the ages that He sends His rain on the just and the unjust. Thus, if water is poisoned and the fish die, “nobody” eats the affected fish.

Fourth, the beast and his followers are the target of the plague wrath of God, but Jews and Christian believers are the targets of the wrath of Satan and the beast. So it was in the Egypt of the Exodus that the Hebrews were the focus of Pharaoh’s wrath while Pharaoh was the focus of God’s wrath. So it shall be in the tribulation. Not only is the beast furious at believers then, but the wrath of Satan himself is also directed against them. This is clearly stated for us: “Woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great. . . Then the dragon was angry with woman, and went off to make war on. . . those who. . . bear testimony to Jesus (Rev12:12-17). But just as surely as, the beast and his kingdom and his followers are the target of God’s (temporal) wrath at the time; the first bowl is poured against “the men who bore the mark of the beast” (Rev 16.2), and the fifth bowl is poured “on the throne of the beast” (16.10). Thus, it becomes the great tribulation for the saints because of Satan’s wrath, and it becomes the great tribulation for the beast and his followers because of God’s wrath.

The fullness of God’s ultimate wrath is detailed Revelation 14.9-11: If any one worships the beast. . . .he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented. . . . for ever.” This is the true wrath of God and we are saved from it. Our life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then we also will appear with Him in glory.

~ Last two paragraphs of “The Wrath of God,” The Crucible and the Crown,” page 174-175.

The following is from the "Tribulation" chapter:

--------------------------------------------
In Isaiah, the Lord speaks to His people, Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the wrath is past. For behold, the LORD is coming forth out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed upon her, and will no more cover her slain (26:20-21). These people did not leave, but simply entered their chambers and hid safely.

In the book of Revelation, this very concept is seen for Israel during the tribulation. Though much of Israel is pursued by the man of sin, a significant number of them are carried on the wings of the great eagle to a place of safety in the wilderness for that period.

How much like the history of Israel before and during the Passover! The Hebrews are safe in their chambers while death is striking the Egyptians. Indeed, as we will consider later in more depth, the whole scene of the Hebrews in Egypt typifies two things that the Scriptures seem to say about the tribulation. As many of the plagues fell on the Egyptians, they did not touch the Hebrews. If God pours out wrath on the Antichrist and his people, He can, indeed, keep it from those whom He has marked as His own. Further, while God was making His wrath felt on Pharaoh and the Egyptians, even so Pharaoh was making the lot of the Hebrews hard.

In the tribulation, we see God punishing the Antichrist, we see the Antichrist pursuing and afflicting the saints. It is not necessarily inconsistent to see some saints paying with their heads for the testimony of Jesus while others are allowed to escape. Thus, he who endures to the end will be saved from the sword and will experience translation.

~ paragraphs 1-4, page 66 of The Crucible and the Crown by Louis Moesta