Christian Perfection (In Greek)

Indeed, and we all have been made complete in Him (Col 2:10).

It is especially important to grasp this. For as you point out rightly in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said for us to "be" perfect. And in the same context Jesus said "unless your righteousness surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Such would have been a blistering hot statement to the Jews of His day. For there was nobody who strived harder to keep God's law than the Pharisees. There was nobody more meticulous in their study and application of God's law. Yet Jesus said unless your righteousness surpassed theirs, and unless you were perfect, you would not enter the kingdom of God.

Where the scribes and Pharisees got it wrong is that they were striving for a perfection they could not obtain in themselves. Such a perfection and righteousness could not come the way they were seeking it. Indeed, to continue to search after righteousness in such a manner would cause one to never actually find it. Rather, such a perfection and righteousness could only come on the basis of faith. It can be received and attained by no other way. And the source of that righteousness and perfection is none other than Jesus Christ Himself.

*edit*
It must also be noted that perfection is ours by faith. A babe in Christ is indeed perfect in Christ. We as Christians are called to simply walk in the perfection we have in Christ. Thus, when you are struggling with some sort of sin as a Christian, you need to realize Christ has already made you free, and you need now only to walk in the freedom Christ has brought to you.

But the perfect in verse 12 is “teleioo”, which also means to “finish” or “fulfill”. In the context of the surrounding passages, Paul was saying that he had not yet “finished” his race as to receive His glorified body. It it the same exact word, “teleioo” that Jesus used when He said he had “finished” the purposes God sent Him to fullfill, John 17:4. So when Paul said, “not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect” Paul was saying that he had not yet attained a glorified body nor finished the work God had for him. And so he presses on to the finish line for the prize of a glorified body, verse 14.

great job explaining these verses.

Could you explain further about what you believe it is to be morally perfect?

In Matthew 5:48 Jesus commanded that we be “telios” or “perfect” just as God is “telios” or perfect. The word “telios” means a current state of moral maturity, moral perfection, or moral completeness lacking nothing.

The word for “becoming perfect” is different. “Teleioo” is the greek word used referencing being “made perfect”, as in John 17:23. But “telios” is used in the present tense of being, hense the “be” perfect as the Father “is” perfect. God Himself is not being made perfect, or becoming perfect, or trying to be perfect, but is morally mature, morally perfect, morally complete as “telios” means.

The tenses in the prayer at this point are interesting. Literally he prays "that they may be (present tense)having become perfect (perfect participle in the passive voice) into one. This is the way the ASV translates the verseI in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me. which captures the sense well.

edit: teleios really means "having reached its end, finished, complete." Hence our word teleological which refers to things with a goal or purpose. The associated verb has the sense of moving something towards its target or destination. The sense of progress or arrival would be given by the form of the Greek verb itself, as is whether or not a person is actively 'perfecting' or passively 'being perfected'.

The sense of fulfilling a plan or purpose is often in the word which is why some modern translations use the word 'mature' as of its meanings.

See [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&verse=23&strongs=5048&page=]teleioO - to perfect (the verb)[/url] used 24 times in the NT.
See [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&verse=23&strongs=5046&page=1]teleios - the end (the noun)[/url] used 19 times in the NT.

... and check out the way in which the words are used in the NT.

KJV
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

KJV
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times
some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils

Speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared
with a hot iron

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,
which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of
them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused,
if it be received with thanksgiving

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou
shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the
words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast
attained.

But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself
rather unto godliness.

For bodily exercise profiteth little but godliness is
profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that
now is, and of that which is to come.

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we
trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

These things command and teach.

Let no man despise thy youth but be thou an example of the
believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in
faith, in purity.

Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to
doctrine.

Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by
prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Meditate upon these things give thyself wholly to them that
thy profiting may appear to all.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine continue in
them for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them
that hear thee.

These are an honest questions, I am not trying to be difficult but I want to know if anyone on this site has reached this 'moral perfection'? Also, once you attain it is it possible to lose it? Does anyone know anyone who has attained this 'moral perfection'?

moral perfection

I think I can speak with confidence in saying that no one on this site has 'reached this moral perfection'; that would make it an achievement.

But if you ask is it possible to be 'perfect before God', as Abraham was commanded, I would say 'yes'.

This will probably bring a storm of postings on my head but if you want a straight answer to the question 'do you believe you have known Christian perfection?' I would answer "Yes... ...[i]frequently[/i]" ;-)

I think I can speak with confidence in saying that no one on this site has 'reached this moral perfection'; that would make it an achievement.

Amen. It is our aim, heading towards it.

Ron, would you say christian perfection is being clean of known sins, not having habitual sin, being obediant to the light (knowledge) given you?

Reply to Ron

Amen again and thank you.

If we are speaking of perfection as being cleansed of sin, having confessed all things before God with no sins hidden, then I agree that a Christian can be perfect before God.

However, once that lust, pride or whatever comes along we must confess our sins again.

My impression from Jesse was that a Christian can live in a state of perfection before God in which the Christian never ever sins again.

Am I misreading this?

2 Peter 1:10 ...His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness...

I think this verse is pivotal when trying to understand the Biblical doctrine of Christian perfection. It says that God has granted us everything we need pertaining to life and godliness. When one understand this, then they will understand they don't need extra "zaps" in their Christian life in order to walk in victory over sin.

Rather, victory over sin is theirs by simply walking in what Christ has provided you by faith. No amount of fasting, praying, reading your Bible, or going to Holy Ghost filled revival meetings will do this. It is about walking in the newness of life provided by the Holy Spirit. It is about depending on the power of His resurrection to sustain one at every moment.

My impression from Jesse was that a Christian can live in a state of perfection before God in which the Christian never ever sins again.

Thank God there is not one promise in Scripture that ever says we must sin again! Will we? Probably. However, as John reminds us: "I have written these things to you that you might not sin..." (1 John 2:1) There is the promise from Scripture: "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weakness, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:15-16)

Sadly, many of us think that growth in our faith is measured by how we sin less and less. The fact of the matter is we are not supposed to be sinning at all. True growth is not measured in sinning less and less, but true growth is measured by the abundance of fruit one produces in their life. For this is exactly how Jesus grew in regard to His faith (Luke 2:52). We prove to be His disciples not by the sinning less and less, but rather, we are to "bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples." (John 15:8) And this is what Peter also said: "For he who lacks these qualities [the virtue/fruit of the preceding verses] is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:9-11)

Now, please don't misunderstand me with all this. Practically speaking, both in and out of Scripture, we see the fact that Christians do sin. And with such, as 1 John 2 says, we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the Righteous. However, what we do not see in the Scriptures is where it is the norm for Christians to live defeated lives bound by the flesh. Rather, victory over sin is the expected norm.

So much so that Jesus said things like "Go and sin no more" (John 8:11) to the woman caught in adultery, or Paul near the end of Corinthians, "Become sober-minded as as you ought, and stop sinning!" (1 Cor 15:34) And why is this the expected norm? Because we are a people of the resurrection! And this was the context of 1 Cor 15:34, the greatest single chapter in all of Scripture devoted to the topic of the resurrection. We are amongst those who have believed that a dead man named Jesus Christ was brought back to life after three days. Therefore, how can we ever live the same ever again?

Amen!

Now, please don't misunderstand me with all this. Practically speaking, both in and out of Scripture, we see the fact that Christians do sin. And with such, as 1 John 2 says, we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the Righteous. However, what we do not see in the Scriptures is where it is the norm for Christians to live defeated lives bound by the flesh. Rather, victory over sin is the expected norm.

I am glad you said this. Victory over sin is the norm and we should never make room for sin in our lives. I desire to live a life that is free from sin but I also see another desire in my flesh. These two war against one another.

I protest against the doctrine of 'Christian perfection' because I have heard preachers speak about it as they have stopped sinning. They say that they do not sin anymore as if they are above temptation and never have anymore slip-ups. It is in my opinion them pretending to be sinless while being sinful. This is what I protest against.

Now, if we are referring to the doctrine that Wesley expounded in that:

"Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean we no longer violate the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have continued need to pray for forgiveness and holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather says that, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.” (A Plain Account of Christian Perfection)

Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent"

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection]Wesley link[/url]

If this is what we talk about then I agree with Ron:

do you believe you have known Christian perfection?' I would answer "Yes... ...frequently" ;-)

Ron, would you say christian perfection is being clean of known sins, not having habitual sin, being obediant to the light (knowledge) given you?

All of the above! :-)

JaySaved on 2007/3/23 18:31:27
My impression from Jesse was that a Christian can live in a state of perfection before God in which the Christian never ever sins again.

Am I misreading this?

Christian Perfection is a snap shot on the route not an arrival at a destination.

KingJimmy on 2007/3/23 20:35:09
2 Peter 1:10 ...His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness..

1. "all things [u]have been given[/u] to us..."
2. "exceeding great and precious promises [u]have been given[/u] to us..."
3. so that by these "[u]ye may become[/u] partakers of the divine nature..."
4. "[u]having escaped[/u]..."
5. and KJV "and beside this [u]add...[/u]" Imperative

and then a whole list of 'additions' to all the things that God has already done which [u]we[/u] are required to 'provide'.

and then this glorious promise...“For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(2Pet 1:8 KJVS)
...and surely that is what we want. Not sterile sinlessness alone but lives which bear much fruit... (John 15)

I protest against the doctrine of 'Christian perfection' because I have heard preachers speak about it as they have stopped sinning. They say that they do not sin anymore as if they are above temptation and never have anymore slip-ups. It is in my opinion them pretending to be sinless while being sinful. This is what I protest against.

Wesleyan Sanctificatin is much more than choosing 'not to sin'. His more favoured term was 'perfect love' and that is a whole lot bigger than 'choosing not to sin'.

It should be noted and especially emphasized that the Biblical doctrine of Christian perfection should not be confused with what Wesley taught. God bless John Wesley that he got so much right about Christian perfection. But he also got so much wrong. Instead of seeing Christian perfection as something that occurs at regeneration, Wesley made it a post-conversion happening. A secondary experience.

To do so, in my opinion, robs a believer of some of his spiritual armor, and cheapens the work of regeneration. Thus, you have accounts such as we read about in the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15779&forum=35]Brengle's Account[/url] thread, which is a great example of classical Wesleyan-sanctification doctrine. This view states that even though you were born again, the "old man" has yet to die, and thus you need to come to a crisis experience in which you once-and-for-all deal with the old man, and put him to death. But where this view falls apart theologically is that Romans 6:6 makes it clear that the death of the old man is part of the conversion experience. The thing we are called to do as believers is not to kill off the old man, but rather, to make sure we don't put him back on the throne. Thus, we should no longer "lie to one another, since you have laid aside the old self with its evil practices" (Col 3:9)

The thing we have to drill in our heads is that verse from 2 Peter 1 which says that we have already been given all that pertains to life and godliness. In other words, no further work of grace is necessary to purge us from sin. For that was done with the blood of Jesus. As one brother I know has asked, "How can you get cleaner after having been washed with the blood of Jesus?" The fact of the matter is that you can't. All that remains after conversion is that you grow in the grace by which you stand, to develop character, and to abound in the fruit of the Spirit.

This view states that even though you were born again, the "old man" has yet to die, and thus you need to come to a crisis experience in which you once-and-for-all deal with the old man, and put him to death.

Dear brother, I'm not so sure it means exactly this, cut and dry. Many venerable men and women of God throughout history have spoken of an identical occurence; it runs throughout traditional hymnody; Leonard Ravenhill spoke of the cleansing, Zac Poonen speaks of the cleansing, Keith Daniel does, Moody did, Fox, Andrew Murray. I don't believe it has anything to do with "the once-and-for-all killing of the old man" - for the old man has been slain with Christ - but I [i]do[/i] believe it is wrought when a believer comes to a place of absolute surrender and abandonment to God. When he finally "lays all his trophies down" and exchanges them for a cross. I believe at this point God is able to do work of grace where hitherto he was unable. It's different from conversion. Listen to Zac Poonen's "Christian Reality" message where he explains how he lived the first 15 years of his Christian walk in "unreality" though he spoke in tongues and wasn't living in secret sin. But it wasn't until he layed it all down where God finally met him and filled him with the Holy Spirit and cleansed his heart and gave him "reality". After 15 years of Christianity!

We can't repudiate the testimonies of the men and women who have been witnesses of this experience. The question, rather, should be how does one enter into this place of total surrender whereby this work of grace can abound. There's simply no mistaking the person in whom this blessed work has been done. Keith Daniel's face shines like an angel - the man is so radically different from other Christians. I'm going out on a treacherous limb here, but I'll say it anyhow: when you see a man like brother Keith, you can't help but think: "This brother has the real thing. This is what Jesus Christ can actually [i]do[/i] to a man!" It's stultifying. And Keith preaches absolute abandonment and being filled with the Holy Spirit. But I certainly agree with you - I don't believe man enters into a state of perfection where the prospect of sinning becomes impossible because the "old man" is now irretrievably slain.

This is a level my heart yearns for, a place where man can not arrive through sheer willpower, nor through pumping up his flesh by protracted periods of prayer and by profuse Bible reading which is independant of the leading of God's Spirit into these deeper waters.

My question to Jesus has simply been "How do I surrender, Lord?" What has to happen in my life? I want it, I accept it, I can taste it...but I just can't relinquish the inner depths of my being without some mysterious key. It's maddening. I absolutely loathe my sin, that which dwells within, which, at any moment is capable of breaking out into an open flame should I stop dealing death blows to my members. But, alas...the surrender. How is it wrought? Oh, who can save me from this cursed body of death!

As Ravenhill said, the Son of God didn't redeem us so we could fumble around like spiritual cripples. We should be turning the world upside down and stirring up the Jews to envy what we have.

Oh, brethren, how I feel we settle for less. What does it take to "lay it all down"? We sing it almost every sunday in my church: "I surrender all" and I sing right along with everyone else. Oh, I can't imagine how different my life would be were it true...

Brother Paul

When are we going to understand that Christian perfection comes only when we are in Christ. Nothing we do will ever attain it by anything we do. It is said, "when we are weak then we are strong." 2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. wallowing around in our own thoughts and works of righteousness gets us no where. When we, like many have said on this forum, that when we finally give us our recognition and desperate works to achieve our self interest in becoming like Christ instead of being like Christ by what God has already done in us that are already In Christ and Christ in us, then we will begin to do the works of Christ that He said, are greater that what He has already done.

Our perfecting is Christ and Christ is in us and us in Christ. What more could we do or want than to become son's of God our Father by Christ Jesus Birthed in us. We truly are perfect in Christ, we just don't want to turn loose of control of our salvation and sonship, that is Lambship.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jhn 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Let us become the lambs of God lead to the slaughter and die to self and be resurrected in Lambship and sonship.

Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Since we are already a kingdom of priests by the Lamb that birthed in us, let us act like it and trust Him that has redeemed us to God our Father, by His own Blood, making us also lambs of God by our association with His suffering.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

By the Lamb of God my fellow lambs, be ye Perfect.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

In Christ, perfect by the Lamb: Phillip

Dear brother, I'm not so sure it means exactly this, cut and dry. Many venerable men and women of God throughout history have spoken of an identical occurence;

Well, Ravenhill and to my knowledge most of the men you named that have reported these things believe in some variation of the "second-blessing" holiness doctrine as preached by Wesley and others. And indeed, such a thing is a common confession by many. Indeed, I would say it is a confession of mine as well. The denomination I am part of generally believes in this "order of salvation" in our doctrine: 1) saved 2) sanctified 3) baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Now, oddly enough, and to the frustration of some in my denomination, my pastor and I would personally testify that our "sanctification" experience came AFTER our having been baptized in the Holy Spirit. So we would switch steps 2 and 3 around from our personal experience. So I guess we would be more in line with Zac Poonen's experience (though I can't say I know too much about Zac Poonen, so I will refrain from further comparisons).

Exactly how one should interpret such a thing, be it called "absolute surrender" or "sanctification" is hard to say. For I believe I gave up all when I gave my life to Jesus when I got saved. I also believe I gave up my all the night I was filled with the Holy Spirit. As to this other breaking point in my life, what exactly to call it is hard to say. I know it did only come after I received a considerable rebuke from the Lord in regard to how I was living my life for a season. I think if we are to call it anything, it is simply growing in our faith. I think if we are to call it anything, it is simply being a disciple. For I know also that since after this originally happened in my life, that I experienced a very strong period of victory and growth in my faith. but then after a period, I fudged a little bit for a season, and was not as victorious, and did not experience as much growth. But then after that season was over, I'm back to walking in that victory again.

However, I would be very cautious in taking my personal experiences and invoking Biblical language to justify it. I don't by any means hold my experience in the faith to be normative for others. For the only thing I see as being normative is the pattern we see in Scripture. And the pattern we see in Scripture is that you simply grow in your faith, and "work out into" your life the realities of heaven that were yours by faith the moment you believed.

KingJimmy on 2007/3/24 3:20:28
Instead of seeing Christian perfection as something that occurs at regeneration, Wesley made it a post-conversion happening. A secondary experience.

PaulWest on 2007/3/24 4:03:59
I don't believe man enters into a state of perfection where the prospect of sinning becomes impossible because the "old man" is now irretrievably slain.

The denomination I am part of generally believes in this "order of salvation" in our doctrine: 1) saved 2) sanctified 3) baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If you heard my testimony you would probably conclude that my experience would parallel this but on reflection I have chosen to use different words to express my testimony.

I no longer use the term 'baptism in Spirit' to describe my 'pentecostal experience'. I don't believe the scriptures necessarily separate these three events.

I sometimes use the analogy of the river in Genesis 2:10; it separated into four heads. I can imagine a possible map of the area where to cross from East to West would necessitate 1,2,3 or even 4 separate experiences of that 'river'. The important thing is to know that you have crossed. I have no quarrel with the man who has 4 river-crossing experiences unless he makes it his doctrine. ;-)

Exactly how one should interpret such a thing, be it called "absolute surrender" or "sanctification" is hard to say. For I believe I gave up all when I gave my life to Jesus when I got saved.

Brother, I wish I could say the same - and believe it in my heart - but I know it's not true in my case. I got saved when I repented of my sin and confessed I needed Christ and threw myself at the mercy seat with a wounded, sin-sick heart; all I was cognizant of at the time was the crime of my heinous, infinitely-offensive sin that the Son of God expiated on the cross.

But did I surrender "all" at the moment my spirit was quickened? If I did, I've taken back whatever self-sufficiency this "all" encapsulated at least a thousand times since! I know that my scarlett stains were washed white in a moment and my dead, separated spirit was quickened and reconciled to God, but I just can't bring myself to say I was completely surrendered at the moment of my conversion. I do, however, understand that that doesn't mean others couldn't be at theirs.

Brother Paul

I have a major theological beef with the notion that you first get saved by accepting Jesus as Savior, and then get "sanctified" or "become a disciple" when you later accept His total Lordship over every area of your life (the former being a Wesleyan notion; the latter being a Baptist notion). As common as an experience as this seems to be, it totally shows a misunderstanding of what it means to be saved, and how salvation comes about.

For Paul teaches, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9) Sadly, we've made this into a cute little salvation formula. But if really look at what this verse says, it says that there is no salvation outside of receiving Jesus Christ as Lord. For Jesus can only be a savior when He is Lord. And as Ravenhill once said, "He is either Lord of all or not at all!" Or as Christ said, "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

Some people might get all huffy and say, "That's works based salvation!" But Jesus said elsewhere, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father and with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds." (Matthew 16:24-28)

Or again, "the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field." And if that's not enough, "again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it." (Matthew 13:44-46)

You see, the Scriptures never depicts entrance into the kingdom of heaven by any means other than wholesale commitment to following Jesus Christ as Lord. For those wishing to have the best of both worlds, and for somebody wishing to save their life, such is an impossibility. But if one wishes to enter into eternal life, one must give up their entire life to possess it. Otherwise, your need to be worldly will forfeit this life.

And Jesus wants us to know that giving our everything up for the sake of the kingdom is worth it. So much so he told two stories back to back with the same meaning. Two men stumbled across something of great value, and went and sold everything they had so that they could possess this one thing. That is what the kingdom of God is like. Or you could compare it to the 1849 Gold Rush in America. Back in 1849 when folks on the east coast found out that there was gold out in the hills of California, people sold everything they had in order to finance the trip out there. And they didn't hop on a train or plane to get out there either. Instead they took a covered wagon and a horse, and traveled several thousand miles across largely undeveloped, unexplored, and very dangerous terrain to get there. All for the shot to obtain what was out in "them thar' hills." But, so long as you continued to live in New York or North Carolina, and so long as you valued your present life over the life you could have, you would never obtain what was awaiting out there. No gold for you!

And this is what salvation is like.

If we must be fully surrendered and perfect when God regenerates us (for anything less might show that Jesus is not truly our sovereign Lord), what then happens if I take back an area previously surrendered? Is the Son of God no longer my Lord - for I have ceased to be fully surrendered in heart - and the unsurrendered believer once again stands in danger of judgment and hell fire (for not only repentance, but full surrender was also prerequisite for coming to Christ)?

I tend to think that if we are fully surrendered at conversion, what further growth need there be in the Christian life? A man who is absolutely and fully surrendered should ideally be perfectly and always compliant in all areas of life, and any "falling short" (no matter how small) would be considered a regression from this pinnacle of standard. So, in essence, after conversion, a believer would have nowhere to go but [i]down[/i] (in terms of inner obedience), since absolute surrender has been established at the get-go.

What do you think, brother?

p.s. The 1849 gold rush was a great illustration. Mind if I use it sometime? :-)

Brother Paul

So, in essence, after conversion, a believer would have nowhere to go but down (in terms of inner obedience), since absolute surrender has been established at the get-go.

This goes back to that negative notion people have about salvation, that growth is measured in terms of sinning less and less. But such frankly, is not a Biblical notion of growth. For as mentioned in previous posts, we are not supposed to be sinning at all! Growth is measured in the same manner by which Jesus is said to have grown while He walked on earth, and that is in abundance of fruit. So, instead of having a negative notion about growth, whereby we sin less frequently, we should take upon the positive notion of growth, whereby we abound all the more in the fruit of the Spirit.

If we must be fully surrendered and perfect when God regenerates us (for anything less might show that Jesus is not truly our sovereign Lord), what then happens if I take back an area I surrendered?

Actually, perfection is the result of regeneration, not the other way around. That is, because God has given me a new heart and a new mind, taken away my sin, I am now "perfect" or "complete" in Him. I have everything I need for life and godliness: a regenerated heart and mind. Where we Christians fail often and become "carnal" is when we allow worldly ways of thinking to creep back into our minds, take root in our hearts, and sin therefore manifest. Or as James says, "Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust is conceived it gives birth to sin, and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." (James 1:14-15).

As the saying goes, the battleground for our soul begins with our mind. Satan will attempt to play with our heads through things that tempt us. For some this might be drugs, others alcohol, and others women. Then when such a thought is allowed to incubate in our head and make its way to our heart, sin is birthed and the old man that was crucified is now back on the throne. This is why Paul said in Ephesians 6 we must "put on the helmet of salvation."

And this is exactly why the Corinthians were carnal. It wasn't so much that the Corinthians weren't dedicated to Christ, and didn't have a genuine relationship with Him. In fact, Paul acknowledges from the opening chapter that they did. They were the very fruit of his ministry! But the reason they were carnal is because being the young babes that they were in the faith, they allowed worldly values and philosophies to occupy their minds. And as a result, they started acting like the world.

The modern equivalent of this would be Christians who do the things they do because of something they heard on Oprah or Dr. Phil. Instead of having the "mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16), and thinking the thoughts of Jesus, they think worldly thoughts. This is why in Romans 12:2 we read about how we need to be renewed continually in the spirit of our mind, so we can be a living sacrifice unto God. The work of God has already been done to us "to the uttermost" from the moment we believed. We have all that we need for pertaining to life and godliness. We need no further "zap" at to cause us to live right and have victory over sin. But what is rather needed is the continual taking up of the cross of Christ, being a committed disciple to the word of God, and obeying that through the power of the Holy Spirit that has been shed abroad in our hearts.

And so long as one does that, they will never stumble and fall short. Now as mentioned earlier, practically speaking, while we do have such a promise as to never stumble, we often do. But such is when we as a believer must refuse to lie in the mire that we once rolled around in, and get up, wash ourselves off, and continue on in the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.

Actually, I agree with everything here - except the part about being fully surrendered at conversion as result of spirit generation. If this were true, our entire Christian life would be a matter of holding this already-attained [i]position[/i] in an inflexible state (with no allowance for increase, but certainly room for decrease). I just can't accept this, nor do I find reference to maintaining this somehow already fully-surrendered state of "spiritual homeostasis" in scripture. I see us rather growing in knowledge and truth and conviction and grace.

The old man is slain, but the deeds of the flesh require daily mortification and putting off. Our inner men must be renewed, and if there is any portion of surrender in our hearts, I feel it is a [i]progressive[/i] surrender to the voice of the Spirit of God, not only an immediate [i]positional[/i] surrender as what I seem to be gathering from this gracious discussion.

In any case, I think we are more or less on the same sheet of music here. I bless you for your kind replies and willingness to go through this with me, carefully, one step at a time.

Brother Paul

KingJimmy on 2007/3/24 15:34:51
I have a major theological beef with the notion that you first get saved by accepting Jesus as Savior, and then get "sanctified" or "become a disciple" when you later accept His total Lordship over every area of your life (the former being a Wesleyan notion; the latter being a Baptist notion).

The outcome was the split into the Pentecostal Church and the Pentecostal Holiness Church with the latter still insisting on 'two' such works of grace to be followed with an enduement with power to serve which they generally labelled as 'Baptism in the Spirit'. They complained that removing the 2nd blessing holiness experience would result in the emphasis dying away altogether. History tells its own tale.

I have some sympathy with Durham's statement above even though I generally align myself with Wesleyan Sanctification theology. I have to admit that this is a personal convenience as the Wesleyans seem to be the group which worked out a theology of Christian Perfection against a host of protest.

I came to the conclusion that my own personal experience of these things is incoherent! I am ready to give my testimony but not to use it as a basis for my theology. I could never get my experiences into a tidy order. I couldn't work out whether I needed to be holy to receive the Spirit or whether I needed the Spirit to be holy.:-(

Some modern charismatics have begun to use the language of inclusion saying that 'full initiation into Christ comprises faith, repentance, baptism in water and baptism in Spirit'. On the face of it some might think I would be happy in their company but they generally persist in identifying 'baptism in the Spirit' with the pentecostal enduement for power rather than the older 2nd Blessing emphasis on receiving the Spirit being the way our character was changed.

In all honesty I want to hold both together as I illustrated here once before with my theological algebra! I see there are so many personal ways in which men and women have to become 'in Christ' and I share heart fellowship, historically, with many who would spew out my theology. I 'feel' I belong with Wesley AND Whitefield, Spurgeon, Chambers, Tozer... the list would be long but with some notable omissions.

Some years ago I was in a missionary fraternal in Malawi. They folk went around the circle introducing themselves... I am with the Methodists... I am with the United Pentecostal Church... I am with... and so it went on. When it came to me I said "I'm with anyone who will have me." I still feel the same. :-)

I couldn't work out whether I needed to be holy to receive the Spirit or whether I needed the Spirit to be holy.

Dear Ron, would you be willing to share more on this true dichotomy, and from your personal experience? I'd be interested to know what conclusions (if any) you've drawn at this point in your journey with God. I, too, lean more toward Wesleyan holiness, but not as purely and as cut-and-dry as most people think.

Thank you, and I am truly indebted to God for your posts. They bless and challenge me in amazing ways.

Bro. Paul

Jimmy, coming from your background and with your interest in theology I'm sure you know that this issue was one of the first splits in the early 20th century pentecostal movement.

Indeed, and this is the primary distinction theologically between the Assemblies of God, and the Church of God (Cleveland, TN). And this is mostly because the founders of the Church of God were died in the wool second-blessing holiness people. However, I think it was about 10-20 years or so into the history of my denomination when it was realized that some in it were not exactly second-blessing holiness.

A split almost happened, but, for numerous reasons both camps within the denomination decided that "sanctification comes after justification" could apply to second-blessing holiness folks, and everybody else that simply said, "yeah, that's a proper ordo salutuos." Now, as far as politics is concerned within the denomination, you won't probably hold a major regional position unless you ascribed unto the three part process. In fact, on the blue index cars that each church has, there are three check boxes to mark for stats: 1) saved 2) sanctified 3) baptized in the Spirit. And it is generally advised to those pastors who don't see it as being three distinct experiences, to just go ahead and check box 2 if box 3 is reported.

It is also interesting to see that within my denomination, even at the school I attended, I have yet to see a professor that holds to second-blessing holiness be able to really be able to describe what it is. And trust me, I spent hours upon hours over lunches grilling them for an answer. It wasn't until I entered seminary and personally studied the works of John Wesley that I came to understand that they had probably never studied the works of John Wesley, yet, it was funny to see they professed a view that is thoroughly Wesleyan. Though I must confess, sometimes I wonder if Wesley even understood what he was saying in regard to Christian perfection!!!! :-)

I have some sympathy with Durham's statement above even though I generally align myself with Wesleyan Sanctification theology.

Same here.

I couldn't work out whether I needed to be holy to receive the Spirit or whether I needed the Spirit to be holy

LOL. And this is a very serious theological issue in my denomination! My older brother who holds to the three-part view quotes that verse of the Bible that says: "The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean vessel!" (which of course, does not exist) Then there are folks like Ravenhill (who though not of my denomination, held a two-part view on things) who said that if you were baptized with the Holy Spirit, you would be holy.

As much sympathy I have with these views, I simply can't find anywhere in my Bible where second-blessing holiness is required to being a candidate for the baptism, or where it is said that having received the baptism will indeed impart actual holiness to an individual. Of course, I know you kinda sit in a gray area (imo) regarding the baptism of the Spirit being a post-conversion experience anyway, so!!!!! But what I see in Scripture (as well as from personal experience) is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit simply brought a fire to my life that I did not have prior to it. I found myself suddenly with an overwhelming zeal and desire to preach and teach. In my experience, it didn't make me live holier. For I still struggled with some of the same sins even after that. And indeed, if the baptism were to make us live holier, then perhaps the Corinthians would have been the holiest of them all! But alas...

In all honesty I want to hold both together as I illustrated here once before with my theological algebra! I see there are so many personal ways in which men and women have to become 'in Christ' and I share heart fellowship, historically, with many who would spew out my theology. I 'feel' I belong with Wesley AND Whitefield, Spurgeon, Chambers, Tozer... the list would be long but with some notable omissions.

Some years ago I was in a missionary fraternal in Malawi. They folk went around the circle introducing themselves... I am with the Methodists... I am with the United Pentecostal Church... I am with... and so it went on. When it came to me I said "I'm with anyone who will have me." I still feel the same.

Indeed. This is my feeling too. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't be of a party spirit. In fact, when I speak of "my denomination" I simply signify it as such because that is the group the church I am a member at belongs to. Had my church been something else altogether, I guess I would be that too. Though I feel most comfortable in Pentecostal based churches (as they will tend not to appreciate one speaking in tongues at most Baptist fellowships!), as far as I'm concerned, so long as Christ lives in you, then I can fellowship with you too :-)

I know you kinda sit in a gray area (imo) regarding the baptism of the Spirit being a post-conversion experience anyway, so!!!!!

As much sympathy I have with these views, I simply can't find anywhere in my Bible where second-blessing holiness is required to being a candidate for the baptism, or where it is said that having received the baptism will indeed impart actual holiness to an individual.

The events at the home of Cornelius have three separate records in the Acts.
1. Acts 10 is the actual event
2. Acts 11 is Peter's explanation to the folks in Jerusalem
3. Acts 15 is a kind of post-script. I reckon the Jerusalem conference to have been approx 5-6 years after the events of Acts 10.

I am very interested in testimonies which are given after reflection. Deuteronomy and John's Gospel fit into this category, but so does Acts 15. Peter's contribution to the discussion contains these words...“And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”(Acts 15:7-11 KJVS)
There is some very interesting theology in this verse. Especially the fact that Peter declares that what happened in Caesarea was that 'hearts were purified by faith' and this plainly is the event that Peter refers to in Acts 11:15-16 as 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'.

According to Peter in Acts 15 this was a 'saving experience'. So just what did happen in Caesarea? Were they saved? sanctified? or empowered?

...yes! :-D

...and this comprehensive experience [u]I[/u] call 'baptism in the Spirit'. ;-)

Dear Ron, would you be willing to share more on this true dichotomy, and from your personal experience?

I need to examine my experience against the testimony of the scripture. If they do not match properly I must not conform my understanding of scripture to my imperfect experience but seek God for more of what He has for me.

If they do not match properly I must not conform my understanding of scripture to my imperfect experience but seek God for more of what He has for me.

I was hoping you had some that [i]did[/i] match properly! 8-)

I suppose I could have stated it better, that what I really wanted was your current [i]understanding[/i] of being Holy to receive the Spirit versus receiving the Spirit to be holy, as it aligns with scripture. That is what I meant by your "experience". Sorry it was unclear.

Brother Paul

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This is not like the pickle, that is Bapto, put in into boiling water, then baptizo, being immersed in vinegar and so from vegetable to pickle. This is not our experience as new creatures in Christ Jesus. The cucumber is still a cucumber just changed by boiling it and putting it in vinegar. The Christian experience is not that way. Baptizing into Christ is a complete union with the believer making him a new creature. Not just a changed human being into a Christian and becoming one more and more. It is being killed and new creature created in its place. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. This must be by faith to be by experience that has already occurred by the Christ that is birthed in us. A complete new person and race of people a new creature.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

This is not a regeneration process it is The Glory of God and the fulfillment of the Plan of God in its miracle of Christ being the life of the New Creature that is Born Again from above.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

This is God's doing and His revelation to the believer, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, takes no repentance no baptism in water, but the work of God giving the new creature the Born Again experience of being born again of Spirit and the Living Water, Christ Himself by His Incorruptable Seed birthed in us, That is Him, Jesus Christ the living Word of God, a Person of New Life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Who baptizes us into the Holy Spirit?

Who teaches us this new creature, who this Christ is that is now our life, "Christ liveth in me"?

Not a second blessing but an answered prayer of Jesus Christ. Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

1. New birth, 2. The Comforter, Teacher Holy Spirit.

I don't know when or in what progression this is accomplished in the plan of God, but I know it all has happened to me and I cannot give you dates.

In Christ: Phillip

This is not like the pickle, that is Bapto, put in into boiling water, then baptizo, being immersed in vinegar and so from vegetable to pickle. This is not our experience as new creatures in Christ Jesus. The cucumber is still a cucumber just changed by boiling it and putting it in vinegar. The Christian experience is not that way. Baptizing into Christ is a complete union with the believer making him a new creature. Not just a changed human being into a Christian and becoming one more and more. It is being killed and new creature created in its place. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. This must be by faith to be by experience that has already occurred by the Christ that is birthed in us. A complete new person and race of people a new creature.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

“[u]I am crucified[/u] with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Gal 2:20 KJVS)Which is correct? [b]Both are correct[/b], the Perfect Tense could legitimately be translated "I have been [u]and[/u] still am co-crucified with Christ". This is not the "old man" but Paul himself. He has been and still is co-crucfied with Christ. It is "I" but not "I".

Your view annihilates Paul's identity.

Paul is trying to loose his identity, he says it is no longer he who live, it is no longer he who sins but sin that dwells in him. The more we loose our identity the more Christ becomes our life, the more Christ becomes our life the more we are as Him to the Father, which is how The Father sees us before the foundation of the world, that Christ in you the hope of Glory. Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Phl 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Crucified:
5777 Tense - Aorist

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time. There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Crucified:
5778 Tense - Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in
English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been
completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be
repeated.

When I was saved I died to self and live unto God, just like Christ. Being crucified with Christ takes care of my past, at my new birth. Being crucified takes care of my present, seeking the things above Col 3:1-4. Being crucified with Christ takes care of my future, looking for the blessed hope of the redemption of the Body, which will be as Christ is now.

I am delivered by the crucifixion, my death, His life in me, The Spirit of Christ. I am being delivered by the crucifixion, my spirit the Holy Spirit in me. I will be delivered by the crucifixion, my death with and in, by His crucifixion unto a new glorious body like His. The quickened seed planted in the ground which will bring forth the fruit of His resurrection physically, a new body like His. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Paul is trying to loose his identity

He wants to redeem the land, rid it of all illegal aliens and bring it into great fruitfulness, but the land will still be the land and 'I' will still be 'I' otherwise God could have just cloned Christ.

The hope of glory is not Christ; he always was glorious. The hope of glory is "Christ is you" not "Christ instead of you". To be consistent with your position you need to change your logon name.

philologos on 2007/3/24 22:17:28
This thread is probably not the place to discuss this but some people regard me as holding to post-conversion regeneration. I certainly don't regard the word 'conversion' and the word 'regenerated' as synonymous terms.

This verse is the grandest condensation of the propaganda of a disciple of Jesus Christ in the whole of the New Testament.

The first sovereign work of grace is summed up in the word - "that they may receive remission of sins." When a man fails in personal Christian experience, it is nearly always because he has never received anything. The only sign that a man is saved is that he has received something from Jesus Christ. Our part as workers for God is to open men's eyes that they may turn themselves from darkness to light; but that is not salvation, that is conversion - the effort of a roused human being. I do not think it is too sweeping to say that the majority of nominal Christians are of this order; their eyes are opened, but they have received nothing. Conversion is not regeneration. This is one of the neglected factors in our preaching today. When a man is born again, he knows that it is because he has received something as a gift from Almighty God and not because of his own decision. People register their vows, and sign their pledges, and determine to go through, but none of this is salvation. Salvation means that we are brought to the place where we are able to receive something from God on the authority of Jesus Christ, viz., remission of sins.

Then there follows the second mighty work of grace - "an inheritance among them which are sanctified." In sanctification the regenerated soul deliberately gives up his right to himself to Jesus Christ, and identifies himself entirely with God's interest in other men. My Utmost.. Jan 10th.