Entertainment

A brief testimony:Being raised in a Christian home, with pretty high standards, you would think I would have somehow caught on to something that was right under my nose. But, as many of us discover when we wholeheartedly give our lives to Jesus, this is sometimes not the case.My family has always held to a “we don’t listen to any secular music” doctrine. It really wasn’t too difficult to follow – it had always been a “given” for my brother and I, that if the music wasn’t inspired by God… it was inspired by the devil. Because of this so-called “high standard,” I would often get into debates with kids in my youth group and even my youth leaders about it. I just couldn’t understand why so few people saw how wrong it was. But you see, I had a problem… Not only was I involved in musical theater, I also watched some secular television shows and movies. One day, after giving much biblical basis on why it was wrong to “partake of the cup of demons” and then “partake of the Lord’s cup,” I was challenged with this question: “What’s the difference between what YOU are doing in musical theater, than what I am doing by listening to secular music?” I had no answer. On another occasion, I was presented with a different question: “What’s the difference between listening to mainstream music vs. watching movies?” Again, I had no answer.It was not too long after these conversations that the Lord began to deal with my heart about my “movie watching.” I was never a movie addict. I have actually seen very few movies – and I always considered my movie choices to be “decent.” (How I justified seeing the Titanic (nudity, glorifying fornication…), Armageddon (glorifying fornication), 10 Things I Hate About You (sexual innuendo…) still boggles my mind.) But, nevertheless, I began an “I will not watch movies for 6 months” campaign. I really didn’t know why the Lord was having me do it – I wasn’t exactly “convicted” about them – yet. After the 6 months were up, I realized how I hadn’t even missed them. When the youth would gather for a “movie night” I would just wander into another room and talk to people. But, the Lord still wasn’t finished with me…My sophomore year of High School I began to struggle with anorexia – that’s an understatement, I suppose. Loosing weight became my main objective in life. I became so thin that the doctors wanted to hospitalize me. We often don’t realize how bound we are to this world and how much we love it, until we are faced with obstacles. It took this battle for God to show me how rotten I was – and how bound I was. Desperate for Life, I began reading the Scriptures like never before – and God began to reveal Himself to me like never before. (I had begun traveling for “music ministry” about a year or so before this.) God was showing me His purpose for coming to earth – a purpose I should have learned of years before my struggle. I began to understand the Gospel, and began to preach the Gospel – in TRUTH and in its entirety (freedom from the power of sin, etc.). As God began to free me from my anorexia, I began to see more and more clearly how far away the professing church (and myself) was from knowing the purposes of Christ. After reading Scriptures such as “I will set no worthless thing before my eyes; I hate the work of those who fall away; It shall not fasten its grip on me. A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will know no evil.” Psalm 101:3-4 I began to see how sinful most secular movies and television programs were. Even “Little House on the Prairie” became loathsome to me, because I saw how it took the place of Christ in people’s lives. It was a humanistic tool to draw people to other loves and other lives – and far away from the knowledge of God. (“Anti-Christ” does not only mean “opposed” to Christ, but a “replacement” for Christ.)So I did away with my television viewing and my movie watching. (I also discontinued my involvement in musical theater productions.) After months (now years) of going without, I realize how incredibly “noisy” my life was – it was nearly impossible to hear God like I needed to. Why am I saying all this? Because I am so grieved in my heart at the idolatry in our lives. I’m not talking about becoming legalistic – I have no problem with someone watching the news when the Twin Towers fell – or checking up on the internet or things like that. I DO have a problem when professing Christians can pay to sit in a movie theater (or pay for cable or HBO) and be ENTERTAINED with the very sin that nailed Jesus to the cross! The very sin that Jesus, our Messiah, shed His Precious blood to SAVE us from! Laughing not just at, but WITH actors and actresses who are going to a place called HELL because they are dead in sin, instead of weeping over their lost souls and begging Jesus to make Himself known to them. No wonder we are divided, and full of (spiritual) sickness and disease in the church! No wonder many have no discernment! How dare we mock God by thinking we aren’t affected by the evil of this age. God, give us the Grace to hear this.When I stand before God, I will give an account for everything I have set before my eyes – what a scary thought! He is going to judge His Church – in love, yes – but, as Paul says, “if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.” 1 Corinthians 11:31 “O sons of men, how long will my honor become a reproach? How long will you love what is worthless and aim at deception? Selah. Psalms 4:2 “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.” 1 Corinthians 11:26 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:9-12Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:33-34Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Galatians 6:7-8I tire of seeing “praise the Lord for Blockbusters!” on professing Christian’s away messages. I tire of reading “going to go watch American Idol” and then a few hours later “Lord, please help me, I’m struggling with my flesh” on the same away message. I tire of reading “gone to church to praise the Lord” one minute and then a few hours later “Thank the Lord for VCR’s! Time to watch FRIENDS!” I tire of seeing people dance and sing and jump and praise the Lord of heaven and all the earth – only to know that they will go out afterward to a restaurant and sing along with the pop music played over the speakers – or worse yet, (as we did at my old church) go see a movie.“And although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1:32 When will we learn? When will we stop being “stiff-necked”? What is it going to take? We may have the best teaching, and read our bibles and pray – but if we are not being obedient to that word, there is no life in us. You might say to me, “I don’t feel convicted in these areas” or, “I don’t hold to the same conviction.” Whether you FEEL convicted or not, sin is sin. Worldliness is worldliness. Many homosexuals are perfectly content and at peace with their lifestyle, but it is STILL sin. And if you would like to bring up the passage “Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil” and “The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God” why don’t you finish the passage?“Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.” Romans 14:22Thanks for listening.“Entertainment is the Devil’s substitute for joy” Leonard RavenhillTo hear good messages on the subject: Passing Under the Rod (David Wilkerson)Preparing to Sing in a Difficult Hour (Carter Conlon)Obtaining the Fullness of the Blessings of Christ (David Wilkerson)But please, if you are going to listen to these messages, do not walk away unchanged in heart. If you aren’t willing to walk away from these ungodly things, don’t waste your time in listening.I truly say this all in love,--Maria

I will say that I do agree with you on this.I also have a lot more to say, but it has been a long day.....Interestingly, my best friend just sent me an email regarding an 'old' 'rocker', (we both were in bands and were big rock n' rollers, heavy metal, classic rock, southern rock, etc.)Anyway, Rick Derringer, for those who may know who he is, is a Christian now! I don't know how long, but after doing some digging around on his site, it appears to be true! So why do I bring this up?Because it took me right out of the stupid money problems that we are having, the disputes over, just ridiculous stuff....and made me rejoice! Praise God, another one saved! It's what it is all about!Again, much more to say and obviously there is the whole music aspect to this entertainment topic, both secular and Christian, which I would imagine will bring out a few reply's......But, for an old rocker like me this is just the best news!_/crsschk\\_

Dear Maria, I am glad to see that the Lord is working in your heart. I feel what you have said is a blessing but I want to say that any change of the heart MUST come from the Lord and his dealings in our hearts. I have seen way to many times when man will grow restless, and instead of seeking out Gods heart we seek out ways to punch out our own holiness, and always using the explanative warning of not being legalistic. If our true hearts desire is to seek His Face, there will be less and less desire for the things of this world and a sincere heartfelt desire to be in His presence..I have come from a past experience of a church that started out sincerely loving the Lord and trully hating sin, and then developing into a church that had no love for anyone, except themselves, becoming totally useless for the Lord. Remember we are to be in the world and not of it....Always easier said then done--but I think the answer is drawing so close to His presence that He gives us the power to do this, or rather He is the power that does it. Its about Him and not us. Its about Him doing all and us doing less(or nothing). Please don't missunderstandme, all sin is an abomination to God, but sin in itself evolves around pride and independence and doing what we want and not what He wants. Our relationship with the Lord is that of love and the only way I can trully be free of sin is to love Him more, or allow Him to love me more.... In Him sdb

Quote: "If our true hearts desire is to seek His Face, there will be less and less desire for the things of this world and a sincere heartfelt desire to be in His presence.."This is so true! What grieves my heart is when we DO feel like we are growing closer, and yet still refuse to submit ourselves to Christ. The Christian can ONLY obey God as God gives Him the power, this is true. But, the Christian must choose to accept that power. As Jesus said to the Pharisee's "The Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst." So often we beg for revival, when it is "in our midst" if only we would receive it.Quote:"but sin in itself evolves around pride and independence and doing what we want and not what He wants."Yes. Sin is choosing to rule oneself rather than to be ruled by God.Quote:"Our relationship with the Lord is that of love and the only way I can trully be free of sin is to love Him more, or allow Him to love me more...."I agree with this -- but what is love? It is not a feeling or an emotion, but an action. The bible says: "And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments." 2 John 1:6And most importantly:"FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3While we cannot possibly obey this apart from the power of Jesus abiding in us, we also cannot claim to have the power of Jesus abiding in us as we continually feed our flesh with the lusts of this world.In His love,--Maria

Quote:"I agree with this -- but what is love? It is not a feeling or an emotion, but an action. The bible says: 'And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments.' 2 John 1:6"And most importantly:"FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not burdensome.' 1 John 5:3"I believe that you are showing one main aspect of love. But love is much too grand of a concept to be boiled down into two verses, don't you think? i mean, we also have 1 Cor. 13 which hits some other aspects, and there's probably many, many more. Isn't love more mysterious? I sympathize with most of your convictions on mixing cups with the world and with the kingdom. But I do think this is a legalistic spirit to get into specifics here (i.e. secular music, movies, etc. are evil). This is because the Bible doesn't clearly explain these things. So then, we have a right to our opinion, of course we must each be convinced in our own minds. But is it right to push this very far? Arent' the lines of right and wrong too blury to make definate claims about them? I mean, most will agree that a movie with lots of sex, violence, and dirty languiage is wrong for a Christian to watch and support. BUt what if the movie has one cuss word? Who decides where to draw the line? What if it has one sexual inuendo? One gruesome fight scene? etc. I think it's more of a subjective thing that God will deal with in each person's life individually. Trying to make and enforce corporate rules seems to be the spirit of legalism. SHouldn't we just love God and each other and let God sort all that out with others? Because I've never known someone to change their behavior in a healthy way (a heart decision of their own will, not because someone told them to) due to the resrictions and laws men try to enforce on them. This seems to cause disillusionment and rebellion. I can imagine some outwardly changing to avoid conflict, etc., but we both know that GOd is looking at the heart, right?The one way I can imagine this type of thing justified is if you are a pastor. If God has entrusted you with a flock, then I think you have greater authority to express and enforce your opinions on holy living. THis is because they are your responsability and you will answer to CHrist some day and have to give an account for them. Us laypeople won't have to give and account for the entire corporate church, only for the part of it that GOd has entrusted to us. Right? Holiness is huge, but a cranky type of holiness doesn't seem to do much for the kingdom. I think history makes this pretty clear. This is a topic I don't have very set views on, I am just throwing some of them out there.

About a year after I became a Christian, I was involved in a discipleship program in a local church. A few of the things we vowed to stay away from while going through the class included any and all secular music, rated R movies, and any questionable television programs.Currently there is some secular music I listen to, such as some of our local Cajun music and world music as well as Celtic music like the stuff from Lord of the Rings and Braveheart.It's interesting to me that you guys are discussing this subject right now, because I've been feeling lately like I've been going kinda crazy with movies.I watch alot of movies, probably 4-6 every week, and alot of those movies are rated R and have alot of violence and language in them, particularly the action movies.So I think I may make a new vow to God to stay away from all movies that are rated R again, even the "kind of okay" ones.I think it was Watcman Nee who said that the opposite of holiness is commonness, not sin.So I'm thinking, What's the point in just simply not being sinful if I still entertain alot of stuff the world entertains?What I watch and listen to is very important to my spiritual development, even if I've been saved for many years, because I have to understand and remind myself that I'm still growing.What goes into my mind through my eyes and ears will eventually come out in my life. And if I'm not careful, it could result in me saying or doing the wrong thing at the wrong time.If there is a question about something I'm thinking about looking at on television or the internet, the answer is that I probably shouldn’t.When I became a Christian, God gave me the gift of the Holy Spirit to purify my conscience and help me make right decisions.It's easy to think that just because I've been saved for awhile I don't have to watch out for those kinds of things anymore. But I should instead take heed when I think I stand, lest I fall.

Watchman Nee is correct: "Holy" means "other" or "separated," and it's opposite is "common" or "vulgar" (in the old sense of the word).Todd, you are sorely mistaken if you think that laypeople will not have to give an account for the corporate body or even less than pastors will have to give. All will give an account for the entire body, and all will be responsible for following the voice of God entirely.That division between clergy and laity that you speak of is called "Nicolaitanism," and Jesus Christ has authoritatively said that he hates it.

"Passing Under the Rod" David Wilkerson"The Redeemer is Returning to Zion" David Wilkerson"Preparing to Sing in a Difficult Time" Carter ConlonAnd a new one:"God Is Doing a New Thing in His Church" David Wilkersonwww.timessquarechurch.orgClick: Sermons--MariaP.S. Thanks Greg - you captured the HEART of what was originally posted.

Quote:"Todd, you are sorely mistaken if you think that laypeople will not have to give an account for the corporate body or even less than pastors will have to give. All will give an account for the entire body, and all will be responsible for following the voice of God entirely.That division between clergy and laity that you speak of is called 'Nicolaitanism,' and Jesus Christ has authoritatively said that he hates it."Wow, if this is true then I was obviously way off. Glad I made that semi-disclaimer at the end of my post. Because the things I wrote I am not totally convinced of. I would really appreciate Bible verses to back up every sentence you made (3). Especially the statement "all will give an account for the entire body." That would be very helpful in helping me determine the truth of this matter.Here's the specific statements I would appreciate Scriptural backup for:1. Laypeople will have to give an account for the corporate body...2. ...just as much as pastors will.3. "All will give an account for the entire body"4. "That division between clergy and laity that you speak of is called 'Nicolaitanism,'...5 ..."and Jesus Christ has authoritatively said that he hates it."Notice I didn't include the statement, "and all will be responsible for following the voice of God entirely" because I agree with you here. I guess James 3:1 was one verse that is rolling around in my head."Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur stricter judgement."This seems to show that there are various levels of judgement. That we are will not all be judged by the same measure. (Matt. 7:2 also backs this up [various standards or levels of judgement] "For in the same way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you").Perhaps one of my mistakes was using the term "laypeople." What I meant was people not in a position of much influence (doesn't mean they are not important in God's plan, I am only speaking relatively in the context of the Church here), not an official leader or shepard. People without a platform, so to speak. People not speaking in authority. Those who are more a part of the flock than shepherds. You do believe there are to be leaders (elders) in the church, right? But you probably don't like the term "laypeople." Perhaps it was careless for me to use this word due to it's conotations.There seem to be two senses of God's flock(s). The Church of Jesus Christ as a whole is clearly just that, Jesus' flock (and so in that sense one flock and Jesus the one shepherd). John 10:16"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd."Acts 20:28 (Paul to the elders of the church of Ephesus [check 20:1] for context)"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy SPirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."Both of those verses seem to support the concept of one flock.1 Peter 5:1-5"Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God AMONG YOU, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Cheif Shepherd appears, you will recieve the unfading crown of glory. You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE to the humble."This passage seems to make it clear that there are numerous flocks within the one main flock, of which God is the Cheif Shepherd.

I am amazed when we begin to rasp under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and begin to justify our behavior and label others as judgmental or legalistic.When I was younger, I got rid of my TV for about 8 years. Then I got "spiritual" and had the liberty to bring it back into my house. Initially, it was for news, weather, and sports. Eventually, we had three TVs for good "clean" entertainment. We didn't watch what everyone agrees as "questionable" programs, but we watched, for the most part, "wholesome" shows. I was pretty much a happy Christian. Attending Church, leading Bible studies, heading up grandiose Christian festivals - impacting thousands of people. I had lots of influence on the Christian community at large (all denominations, etc).After another 8 years or so, the Holy Spirit convicted me again that if I continued to "entertain" myself with the things of this world, He would remove His anointing (another theological debate but I know what I heard). Well, after some strong consideration, I figured that it was better to err on the side of righteousness instead of justifying my worldly activity. So, as I humbled myself and allowed the Lord to have this area walked away from television (I wasn't really into movie going), my discernment began to sharpen. I began to see with eyes that were clear and no longer walk with feeble knees - chronically stumbling and struggling with lust and worldliness.Don't get me wrong, the person who said that music, TV, etc are amoral is partially right. The box that has the picture tube has no evil value to it at all, but the contents that it vomits out has no righteousness associated with it at all. It is there so that its producers can earn a great deal of money to bring people happiness, excitement, adventure, and education.The spirit of antichrist is more than just opposing the things of God, but it has to do with replacing the things of God. Don't you see that what this world wants is your attention and your affection - even if it's a little. Because if it can entice you with a little, then the leaven is placed and will begin to spread.If you believe that this is legalistic, then "sin is at your door" wanting to pull you into its midst. No doubt that there are those out there that have become proud in their holiness because they don't do certain things and only do things that are spiritual. We've all encountered them. However, the true holiness of God produces a knowledge that there is "no good thing that dwells within me" and considers that anything that desires to steal my heart from God, in any way, something to be avoided.All of the prophets were considered legalistic and judgmental. Jesus, Himself, had this rap. What do you think they thought of Him when He proclaimed His woes on certain cities? What do you think they thought of Him when He drove out the money changers? What do you think they thought of Him when He railed on the scribes and Pharisees?The saddest thing of all is that we feel that we have to defend our right to be worldly. On the other hand, someone has to defend their desire to "come out from among them and be separate" and be conscrated unto God.You are right, conviction can only come from the Holy Spirit. You are wrong that it can't come from a person or that it has to come from someone "in authority." I am an ordained minister, but Jesus said that I must come as a child. Coming as a child enables me to receive from the Lord through any part of His body. Paul tells me in EPHESIANS (not Galatians) to be an imitator of God. Paul tells me that in guile to be as a child. I can only do this when I am not spoiled by the things of this world.I'm not going to add a bunch of scriptures because many have already been made part of this post. For sure common-ness is the opposite of holiness. For sure, the Bible doesn't SPECIFICALLY identify television and entertainment (neither are in the concordance), but the Bible speaks of the spirit that they are of. For sure, there is no precedence for the Christian music industry. As one that participated in it for many years, it is a business like the rest of the music industry. Are there Christians in it? Yes. Is God using it? The current stuff is debatable. Is there good music out there that is glorifying God? Yes, and much of it isn't part of a label.This is a long post and I realize that many times we pick out the most recent things mentioned, so I'm going to summarize because this post has nothing to do with Christian music or even television/entertainment. It DOES have to do with the spirit of antichrist. Do not be deceived. Paul says that we know the devices or tactics of Satan. If he can divert your attention away from the simplicity and purity of following Christ and receiving all of your happiness, adventure, suspense, and education from His hand, then he can begin to lure you into his trap.What are things that replace our simple devotion to Christ? As one person said, religion. Some years ago I was an associate pastor of an inner-city church in a large metro city in the south. I was the principal of the Christian school and as far as everyone was concerned (including myself) I was serving God - I was doing HIS work. Work that HE called me to do. I have never been a religious person - one who looked down on someone because of their behavior. I have a strong conviction that God wants us to people that brings others to reconciliation with God. So, for all intents and purposes, all was well with God and me - until one day I realized that something was missing in my life. I was missing that intimate sense of His presence that I had always enjoyed. I was missing hearing His voice. So as I knelt down to pray, I heard these words clearly - words that I will never forget and an event that is a landmark in my Christian walk, "You'll have no other gods before me." The Lord revealed to me that I had allowed my ministry (the one He had called me to and a location He had placed me) to REPLACE my simple, pure devotion to Him. You see, God doesn't need your religion or your religious activities. He wants your YOU! So, ANYTHING that draws us away from Him by stealing our time, our affection, our energy and replaces Him - we are guilty of idolatry. This will ultimately result into us falling prey to worldliness - all the while believing that His presence and His pleasure is with us.Do NOT BE DECEIVED.For a picture of what sin and worldliness can do to the body, take a look around. How effective is the Church these days in preserving the culture and restoring people back to God?WE WILL ALL STAND ACCOUNTABLE BEFORE GOD AS MEMBERS OF HIS BODY.I apologize for the length of this. Thank you for reading it, in its entirety (I read all of yours, in their entirety).When I was young and full of zeal, I sought to please the Lord with all my heart, sparing nothing that would intrude into that space. When I got older and wiser, I tempered that zeal and began to realize that I was capable of discerning which worldly activities I could participate in and which I couldn't. I also wanted to be able to "fellowship" with other believers - because the other way made them uncomfortable. When the Lord showed me that I had become wise in my own eyes, He also showed me that I could return to Him as a young child again - full of zeal, sparing nothing that would intrude into His space.I leave you with one final scripture verse. Please read it completely, in the context of this post. May the Lord give you wisdom. “But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and [so] lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy(unfeigned, undisguised, sincere). And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.” (James 3:14-18 NAS95)Disclaimer: I didn't proof read this so if there are spelling errors or bad grammar - my apologies.Consider reading the following article on Sin In The Camp" to understand our role in His body.Peace,Mark

Thanks for expounding on the meaning of holiness as Brother Nee defined it. I think it should be a priority for us to be holy and separated from the world, and separated unto God.That way the world can see that there really is a difference in us and it might influence them to want to become Christians as well.I believe we will have to give an account to God for the opportunities we have or have not given to young believers to help them grow in their faith.Keith Green said that every generation of believers is responsible for their generation of souls. And Jesus commands us to go and make disciples of all nations.Peter exhorted the elders of the church to shepherd the flock of God among them, exercising oversight and proving to be examples to the flock.I agree that there are numerous flocks within the one main flock of every church, of which God is the Cheif Shepherd. The leadership training program in my church is called Exodus 18, based on the advice of Jethro to Moses about finding able men to be undersheperds for the people of Israel.Every church member is prayed for daily and receives a phone call every week to see how they're doing. I've said this before: I believe that if we who have been saved 10 years or more can't look at a young believer and say "Follow me as I follow Christ" then we need to check ourselves out and see if there is something wrong with us.

]I've said this before: I believe that if we who have been saved 10 years or more can't look at a young believer and say "Follow me as I follow Christ" then we need to check ourselves out and see if there is something wrong with us.Well said.By the way, my reference to my ordination was to respond Todd's statement about pastor's being held accountable. While there is a greater accountability to anyone in leadership, if those in leadership reach a point where they cannot receive correction or ministry from the rest of the body, then they are out of order and out of control (cancer). The reference was merely to state that not only do I believe that, but I live it as well.Man's ordination means nothing. If that was the case, then the apostle Paul was not qualified for the ministry as he was not ordained or commissioned by anyone from the church at Jerusalem.Peace,Mark

The one way I can imagine this type of thing justified is if you are a pastor. If God has entrusted you with a flock, then I think you have greater authority to express and enforce your opinions on holy living. THis is because they are your responsability and you will answer to CHrist some day and have to give an account for them. Us laypeople won't have to give and account for the entire corporate church, only for the part of it that GOd has entrusted to us. Right? Holiness is huge, but a cranky type of holiness doesn't seem to do much for the kingdom. I think history makes this pretty clear. This is a topic I don't have very set views on, I am just throwing some of them out there. [/quote

Quote Taka: "I think it should be a priority for us to be holy and separated from the world, and separated unto God. That way the world can see that there really is a difference in us and it might influence them to want to become Christians as well."Absolutely! Thank you for responding in a Spirit of love! Thank you also, heartsoffire. It's awesome when the Lord begins to quicken our hearts to hear and understand what He is speaking to us! =)I quote: (someone from another post a while back)"To a hypocrite, all whose religion lies in his tongue, nothing is more dreadful than that God searches the heart and sees through all his disguises. To a sincere Christian, who makes heart-work of his duty, nothing is more comfortable than that God searches the heart, for then he will hear and answer those desires which we want words to express." UnknownIn Him,Maria

"To a hypocrite, all whose religion lies in his tongue, nothing is more dreadful than that God searches the heart and sees through all his disguises. To a sincere Christian, who makes heart-work of his duty, nothing is more comfortable than that God searches the heart, for then he will hear and answer those desires which we want words to express." UnknownI have always found that when I feel defensiveness rise up and then fear it is because my flesh is becoming uncomfortable. I was attending the meeting where David Wilkerson preached on "Passing Under the Rod." I felt my defenses going up. I began to get angry. Then this still gentle voice spoke to me, "If this wasn't a problem, then why are you getting angry?" At which point I found myself with a mighty resolve to deal with the idols of my heart.This same thing has happened to me several times over the years and it usually comes from a place or person that I least expect it to. You see, God is interested in empowering me to overcome the world. THEN, as an overcomer,I have demonstrated to a dying world a living Saviour.This isn't performance based and it has nothing to do with anything good in me. It has everything to do with God's grace in me to lead me to a true righteousness. Not one by which I do outwardly, but a changed heart.“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,” (Titus 2:11-12 NAS95)“"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. "Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. "I am not doing [this] for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"” (Ezekiel 36:25-32 NAS95)

I DO have a problem when professing Christians can pay to sit in a movie theater (or pay for cable or HBO) and be ENTERTAINED with the very sin that nailed Jesus to the cross! The very sin that Jesus, our Messiah, shed His Precious blood to SAVE us from! Laughing not just at, but WITH actors and actresses who are going to a place called HELL because they are dead in sin, instead of weeping over their lost souls and begging Jesus to make Himself known to them.Amen Amen and Amen. AS it says in James, be miserable, mourn, and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into gloom. We have commited a gross sin today by calling 'bad' good. As 1 Cor teaches, love does not rejoice in unrighteousness...yet so many rejoice by being captivated and amused by that which our Lord died for.

QUOTE: "As 1 Cor teaches, love does not rejoice in unrighteousness...yet so many rejoice by being captivated and amused by that which our Lord died for."Thank you! You have just defined another part of what true love is: walking in the ways of His commandments!!QUOTE:"We have commited a gross sin today by calling 'bad' good.""Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 "Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness..." 2 Chronicles 19:7"The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether." Psalms 19:9"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverted mouth, I hate." Proverbs 8:13"By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for, And by the fear of the LORD one keeps away from evil." Proverbs 16:6Grace and Peace in our Lord Jesus Christ!--Maria

"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverted mouth, I hate." Proverbs 8:13I recently preached on that verse :) wrtbooks was kind enough to put up my sermon on this site. It may be good for people on this discussion to consider watching that sermon, as I think it is applicable to this discussion.Check it out The Fear of the Lord and Idols About 52 minutes long.Also, for those of you who would rather not download a 24 mb file, you can watch a streaming version of that tape at http://www.christiansteps.com/sermons/fcc_071303.ramThis is my first sermon btw :)

Sorry, Todd, it took me a bit to get to your post; I'll do the best I can now.1. Laypeople will have to give an account for the corporate body... Scripture says that we will be accountable first and foremost for our obedience and steadfast love towards God. This is as applicable to "laypeople" as "ministry." You and I are as responsible to be obedient as is any person in paid ministry. I think you will agree without this on the broader witness of Scripture, but if you would like specific references, just ask.Secondly, I am responsible for all those around me who are touched by my influence (a sobering thought that I don't realize enough). Paul tells an entire church (Corinth -- not just the leaders) to ensure that none makes their brother stumble. Remember that if we are a "body," then any place where the bloodflow is cut off affects the entire body.2. ...just as much as pastors will.Let us remember that in the New Testament, "pastor" was not a title and typically did not indicate a person in full-time, paid ministry. It rather meant someone who had taken on additional responsibility in shepherding the flock of God (which is what "pastor" means). It is good for us to remember that what we now see as "titles" were then "descriptions" -- that is, they were the best words anyone could think of to describe what a person was doing.Secondly, James says that "teachers" will be judged more harshly, not "pastors." The reason that this is the case is that one's teaching is so influential. If, for example, I teach a group that obedience is not necessary for Christians because God is merciful, I have taught others to disobey God. Since we will all be held accountable for "every idle word" (Matt 12:36), those who teach (and therefore speak more and on more important things) will be held accountable for more. It is not that they are held to a higher standard, for it is the same Law that we are all judged by:James 2:12 So speak and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.James 4:11-12 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother, or judges his brother, speaks against the law, and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge of it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?Thirdly, this truth can (and should) be extended to other facets of life as well. In areas that we have more influence, we will be held more accountable -- not because of a title or because of a higher standard, but because of the additional influence that we wield.3. "All will give an account for the entire body"We are each held accountable for those around us, and because every member is ultimately joined, for the entire body. 1 Cor 11:27-28 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly.We tend to read this passage (I highly recommend that all go back and read this in its 3-chapter context) as a reference to the literal practice of the Lord's Supper, but Paul is intending something deeper here: the symbols involved in the Supper represent our participation as a member of the body. That is, I am a partaker of the blood and body of Christ -- but If I, as a part of the Body, live unworthily, I am guilty of the body and blood of Christ and ripe for judgment. In the passage below, we find that each member (even those seeming to be weakest or least influential) is as much a part of the Body as any other part. No person in the Body is any less than any other -- when one suffers, all suffer. When one sins, all those around him (no matter how insignificant a part of the body he may be) will feel the repercussions. The story of Achan in Joshua 7 should demonstrate this beyond doubt (look how many died because of one man's sin).1 Cor 12:12-26 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.4. "That division between clergy and laity that you speak of is called 'Nicolaitanism,'...The word "nicolaitan" is a hybrid Greek word coming from "nikao" -- which means "to conquer," "to overcome," "to vanquish," "to subdue" -- and "laos," -- the standard Greek word for "people"; it is generally used in the opposite sense as "ethne" ("nations" or "Gentiles") as a word for the people of God. We get our word "laity" from "laos." The word itself means "subjection of the people" or "conquering of the people." The word can be found in Revelation 2:6, 15 -- they'll be below.5 ..."and Jesus Christ has authoritatively said that he hates it."Revelation 2:6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.Revelation 2:15-16 Thus you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore ...This teaching of the Nicolaitans, by the nature of the word itself is a divide between a "ministry class" and a "people class." The term "ministry class" is itself a misnomer because the word "minister" means "to serve," and these are not "servants" but "masters." Jesus Christ hates the teaching that those who have been given influence in his body are somehow "masters." He is the only true Master (Lord), and will pass his Word and his gifts through whomever he chooses (see 1 Cor 12:6-7). It was precisely because of this skewed view of authority that the Pharisees refused to listen to Jesus -- after all, they hadn't ordained him or given him authority (see Matt 21:23, et al ad nauseum) and he was uneducated. Who was he to think that God would pass his word through someone without an established "ministry?"Jesus unequivocally states that he hates this teaching and this practice. He desires a Body in unity -- not a heirarchical organization. In a body, each member must be willing to receive the flow of blood and nutrients from all members around it (although the poor veins must carry the waste of others around too). If a part is not willing to receive from another, the blood will become stagnant and that part of the body will die. It is only by the constant and unhindered flow if the blood of Jesus through each member in his Body that his life continues in us. Stagnancy is death. If we are unwilling to receive this blood or to pass it on, we are the cause of this stagnancy. The same is true for those leaders who, in their arrogance, refuse to hear those "below them."I hope that helps! If anything is unclear, let me know.I should also add that this thread has cut me once again (in a good way) -- while I eliminated television and moviessome time ago, I have allowed myself to waste a good bit of time over the last few weeks playing computer games. While I think playing a game once and a while with friends is fine (as is an occasional board game, etc.), the wasted time of late has been unacceptable -- it is good that God has brought this thread at this time if only as a reminder of this!

The terms 'holy' and 'sanctified' are synonmous. Both mean to be 'set apart.' We can either be set apart for God, or we can be set apart from God. If we are set apart for God we have an intimate relationship with Him. If we are not set apart for Him, intimacy with God is impossible. When we come across many things upon our pilgrimage in this world, we will have to ask ourselves, "Can I sanctify this?" For, as Christians, anything we partake of will have to be set apart even as we are set apart, even as God is set apart. If we cannot set it apart, then we should dare not partake in it. If we should try to fool ourselves, and say we can partake of that which is not set apart for God, then we shall be set apart from God. Anything not of God is to be regarded as "under the ban" and is not to be brought back home, unless we should come under the curse and die. And die we shall if we should be set apart from God, for apart from Him, there is no life.We must keep in mind the attitude of 1 Tim 4:4-5:For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude ; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.If what we partake of cannot be set apart from sin, or even the apperance of sin, then we have no business touching it. There is nothing wrong with watching TV, there is nothing wrong with being on the internet, there is nothing wrong with listening to music, or going to the movies. In themselves, they are fine things we can do, being entertained, enjoying the fruits of our labors. We can set apart that which one might use in an unholy manner, in a holy manner.But we enter into grave error if we think that everything that comes through these mediums of communication is acceptable. There are many things we should dare not be entertained by. There are many things that are broadcasted through these mediums that are condemned by God's holy law. We must not watch things that glorify anything sinful...even if it is just once. How can we honestly say we are entertained by that which Christ died for, yet at the same time say we love God? The thing is, we cannot honestly say that; all we can do is lie. The overall plot, no matter how thrilling it might be, does not justify us watching it. We might say many such movies are "good," when in reality, there is nothing good about them. We are a people who are through and through guilty of Israel's sin, by calling good bad, and bad- good. We call movies such as Braveheart, Saving Private Ryan, Titanic, and many other such films, "good." By "good" we mean, when divorced from the holiness of God, they captivate us. A lot of these "good" movies would be considered bad movies had all the "good" things been left out of them e.g. nudity, profanity, excesive violence, etc. In fact, all these "good" movies are not good, but, rather, full of every evil thing. Sometimes we find ourselves watching a movie that has what we deem as excess, and comment, "*gasp* they didn't have to use that word." But, if we say that, and continue, not realizing we have commited a greater sin than those whom we watch... we are guilty of not practicing what we preach, and are storing up for ourselves the wrath of God (read Romans 2). I remember watching a movie with my parents not too long ago, and my parents commented that the movie did not need to contain such abusive language, and they said "why do they have to put that sort of stuff in movies?" The Holy Spirit then spoke to me, "But why do you have to continue watching them?" What has happened to the days when Christians would flee from the gladiator Roman Arena's? What has happened to the days when Christians would get up in the middle of a movie that they just paid for, and walk out of the theatre? Maybe we have come to a point in our Western society, where we as Christians should even know not to enter into the gladiator's arena unless we plan on preaching? Maybe Western Society and its entertainment industries have become so corrupt, that we should not expect even one movie to be released that is beyond being sanctified. ...flee...

I am no longer shocked by the evils people find in each other. Much like the love for the Lord, all sin exists within our hearts. It is a righteous quest to battle Satan each day. But keep in mind that the worlds greatest sins have been committed by people with great intensions, and under the banner of the Lord.You profess a love for god, but its sounds to me like all you see is the sin. There is great sin in all Entertainment, I dare not say otherwise, but so is there great sin in the Bible as well as in Life. What should I do if the bible was made into a movie. Must I still ignore the theme if there appears to be sin. One could argue that without WW2 movies we might forget the pains of hate and fear, our true enemies. for it is hate, fear, greed etc. that are cause of sin. Violence is only the effect, as well the tool of god.Let us not be blinded by the use of mans words, but guided by the love for each other. And keep in mind that we are all sinners. I would rather my neighbours sin be watching movies, rather then have it be the rape of the Middle East, which is on the news each day.There is a difference between violence in entertainment and violence in life, both teach us lessons about ourselves, but the later is final and has no sequels.The existence of Satan is real, hate is real, pain and violence are all real, and facts of life. Movies are a reflection of life, if there is much sin in a movie, then likely there is much sin in real life. I think of movies as a documentation of reality, though distorted. Let us end all sin, and so will the movies reflect this.I fear the problem is not the violence in movies, but Christians content on pointing fingers at all non-believers. Let us give them reason to love god, let us show the love we hold so high, and not run into battle with our backs to the true enemy...Satan and his indifference. I believe gods love extends beyond religious doctrine, for he carries many titles, and cares for all despite the name of ones chapel, or chapter. Be careful you do not become the zealot. For even if you live your life for god, that does not free you from sin. Please tend to your own fields first.How can one have a movie that is true to god, without including sin. let us stop lying to our selves and admit we are all to blame, not just the Entertainment industry, there sin is the quest for riches, for they make what sells, and what sells is sin........That is human nature. We define ourselves though by sins and hardship.Our purest state maybe god-like. But we are far from that point. As our Quest closes to an end, sin will no longer hold us to this physical world, a point will come when we will cast away all fantasy, and all secrets will be known. Perhaps then we will have a greater understanding of each other. God wants us to live life for him, but he also wants us to live life.

There is great sin in all Entertainment, I dare not say otherwise, but so is there great sin in the Bible as well as in Life. What should I do if the bible was made into a movie. Must I still ignore the theme if there appears to be sin.Those of us who harp against the many evils are not saying that you make everything all "peachy", where you have an entire movie where everything is perfect. What we are against is the gloficiation of the sin in the movie. You use the example of the Bible made into a movie.The Bible never glorifies a lot of the things that we find glorified in the movies. The Bible never tells us just what David did with Bersheba in the sack, nor does the Bible in anyway present what David did with Bersheba as a good thing. It's one thing to illude to the fact in a movie that David had an affair with Bersheba, it's quite another to show them nude and in the act itself. Such would be a glorification of the sin...and in fact, the actors themselves in the production of that movie would be guilty of sin while producing the movie. What we would not be seeing is the sin of David & Bersheba, rather, we would be partaking in the sin of the actor and actress. And keep in mind that we are all sinners.We are? I thought we were saints? I thought Christ made us holy? Be careful you do not become the zealot.There is nothing wrong with zeal partnered with knowledge. We should all be zealots for the Lord. We should love the Lord our God with all our heart, all our mind, and all our strength. Such a love will include a deep hatred of sin.How can one have a movie that is true to god, without including sin. let us stop lying to our selves and admit we are all to blame, not just the Entertainment industry,I don't think anybody is blaming the Entertainment industry. However, the entire argument of "they wouldn't publish it if you didn't buy it" argument is rather weak. Time and time again the industry has published things people were against. Yes, we all are to blame, but, the industry is still guilty of sin.

I am certain that Israel had the same problems with Elijah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos, John, and every other prophet they encountered -- "is sin all you see?" Unfortunately, these poor men of God had seen through God's eyes, and could only see things his way.I agree with the post before -- it is not the inclusion of sin in a movie, etc. that defiles it(otherwise, Scripture, which narrates some terrible acts, would be wrong), but the portrayal of the sin. I have said that if someone made a movie out of Joshua or Judges, it would carry an awful rating, but the difference would be in the portrayal of all these things. Rather than pointing us to the sin, causing us to focus on it and partake of it in our minds, these books focus on the Lord while sadly observing that his people wouldn't follow him. The question is whether the sin is intended to entertain us or to make us weep because of its horrible consequences in drawing us from God. That makes all the difference.

Food for thought:"But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness." 1 Timothy 4:7The following is all one passage (Ephesians 5:1-17). Please read it and pray that the Lord would continue to give us ALL "ears to hear" and "eyes to see," obedient hearts and willing Spirit's."Therefore BE IMITATORS OF GOD, as beloved children; and WALK IN LOVE, just as Christ also loved you and GAVE HIMSELF UP for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed MUST NOT EVEN BE NAMED among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be NO filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are NOT FITTING, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore DO NOT BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. DO NOT PARTICIPATE in the UNFRUITFUL deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is DISGRACEFUL EVEN to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you." Therefore BE CAREFUL how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, MAKING THE MOST OF YOUR TIME, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.""Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart." Hebrews 12:1-3"May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ." 2 Thessalonians 3:5Blessings in Christ,--Maria

To all,What an incredible conversation is going on here and we all have Maria to thank for getting the ball rolling.Even though I felt slighted by Mr. Wrtbooks replies as he skipped over my respone,(Of course I am KIDDING!)I will throw in my two cent's worth:and the Holy Spirit uses anything to speak to people. Sometimes even other people.. hehe Sometimes even baby christians to an older chrisitan like me to rebuke me.. wow that hurt I care not to elaborate! I actually would like to elaborate a little, how about even non-Christians in regard to the Holy Spirit using anything to speak to people? Hold on to your hat's here, some of this might surprise you.Part of my 'testimony' is how God used the "foolish things of this world" to draw me to Himself.Though I was raised as a Catholic and was far from being a Christian for much of my life, was into all kinds of sin and rebellion (yep, sex, drugs and rock and roll). I still had a rooted belief in God (even if it was a quite a bit off base) and questioned a lot of what was being communicated in the music I was listening to, even at that time. An old aquantince used to come around to my work in those days and witness to me (God bless him, he definately planted some seeds!) and we would have long conversations on the subject of music, secular/Christian. My main argument was that as a guitar player my focus was on the "sound" aspects, skill, etc. and I agreed that a lot of the lyrics I could do without. He turned me on to some Christian rock bands like Stryper, Petra, The Rez Band, some of it was O.K. but Stryper had a good effect on me as it was closer to the 'style' I was into then. Say what you will about them (I know that they had their own 'falling away', mainly alcohol, later on and disbanded, but I believe they have returned individually to their First Love)but this is one 'tool' that God used to draw me.The night I cried out to God after I had been running for so long, after looking at 'things' on the 'net, strung out on speed (methamphetimine),and the usual cocktail of beer and pot, probably 2:00 in the morning....just disgusted with how far I was in a cespool of sin..There was a lyric running through my head " Oh sweet Jesus Where did I go?I cried out to God that night, with those words over and over as the tears fell, knowing that I needed Jesus in my life, though my flesh was screaming against it, that was the night I finally came to the Lord...I 'felt' that....'warmth' just course through my veins, just a sense of overwhelming love. It would be a couple of years of struggle before the drugs were eradicated and was probably a year afterwards that I even got into the Bible (when I met my wife)...but looking back, best I can tell, that was THE night.By the way, the lyrics to that song are from Zakk Wylde and his solo band called Pride and Glory, the song, "Sweet Jesus". Zakk is the on and off guitar player for......Ozzy Osbourne.Yeah, that guy. To this day there are still some lyrics that run through my head.."Help me save me from myself""set me free""Why can't we learn how to love, and forget how to hate"There are many more, but I believe that he is very misunderstood and is just crying out to be saved, just the kind of sinner Jesus would go after I might imagine if He were still on this earth...by the way, Pat Boone used to live next door to him and they Loved him! So you never know, I still pray for him...A few other notables from my old sphere of rock music that have become Christians*:Nico McBrain* Drummer for Iron MaidenAlice Cooper leads a Bible study in his homeDanny Spitz ex- guitar player for Anthrax (a HEAVY metal band) is jewish and is now a Messianic ChristianRick Derringer (see the prior reply in this post)Dave Mustaine* guitar player /leader of Megadeth\t(not so sure about him, good friends with\tAlice Cooper though...)* I did some digging around, because some of this is second hand information, so I don't want to make any particular comment's as to whether they are truely commited followers or not.........the point being that they could still be 'work in progress', seekers?I guess what we have to remember is that, we don't always have all the facts before us, the culture and background people are brought up in, hardships, abuses either self-inflicted or otherwise.I don't think there are easy answers to a lot of these questions and these posts have caused me to reflect on what is the bottom line? Because I have such a strong desire to just know Him, I didn't purposely set off to 'not' listen to this or that or 'not' watch particular things on T.V. it just kind of became less interesting, less important......Even sports, which I 'love', (ALL of them) believe me, I was fanatical over 'my teams', yeah, I still watch the games but the importance of missing the Sharks vs Dallas doesn't have the same effect it used to ( I just have somebody tape it....) But still, for all that, the issue is still serious and I couldn't agree more with most of these posts...even the sports which are in and of themselves 'neutral' and I think personally are at least not acted and aren't as predictable as watching a sitcom with a canned in laugh track, still have the commercials attached to them that just beg you to by into the whole worlds system. Also agreed is that by being removed from a lot of this type of media for awhile, you definitely see things from a different perspective when you come back to it.The obvious is what it is, as someone here has already stated, the subtle things are not so easily detected to the undescerning and when the issues get raised the cries of "legalism" come out as well as "liberalism".Frankly, you could blow up all the T.V.s and movie theater's in the world and it wouldn't bother me a bit, but since that is unlikely to happen and we are called to "be in the world, but not of it" we all have to carefully guard ourselves against what we will allow to pass through our ear and eye gates. At the same time being careful not to use this as a weapon of self righteousness against those who are either weaker in their faith, at a different step in their walk or outside the faith altogether. I don't think everything is black and white and you never know just what the Lord may use to draw sinners unto Himself...........Because I am just an example of that 'foolishness'.As an added bonus, I will close out these ramblings with this quote: "We have to make a choice. And everybody, at some point in their lives, has to make that choice. When people say, 'How do you believe this? Why do you believe this?' I just say nothing else speaks to my heart. This doesn't speak to my intellect, it doesn't speak to my logic - it speaks right to my heart and right to my soul, deeper than anything I've ever thought of. And I totally believe it. That being said, I'm not a very good Christian. I mean, none of us are ever 'good' Christians. That's not the point. When you're a Christian, it doesn't mean you're gonna be good, it means you've got a harder road to pull." Alice Cooper

Crsschk, I can relate to your experience quite a bit. and i have heard similar testimony by people I really respect. I am referring to how God uses the foolish things of the world. Thanks for sharing it was encouraging to hear. There's one powerful man of GOd that I know of. He was a hardcore druggie and all that. He said that sometimes on his way home at night, when he was all messed up, driving through the city, he would be assaulted by a "drive by" (as he put it). A group would just pull up next to him and scream at him "Jesus loves you" and take off. Now I don't think too many of us would consider that a proper evangelism technique, but God used it. God can use anything for HIs purposes. THis man would go home freaking out and thinking, "WHy did that happen tonight?" "Am I going to die soon and GOd is trying to get my attention?" Set his mind on eternal things. Important issues. I am reminded of what Ravenhill said, "Any method of evangelism will work, if God is in it." And beyond that, even if God's is not "in it" He can "use" it. I think we can spend way too much time trying to figure out the "right way" to do it instead of just doing it. That doesn't mean we should be flipant and careless, but let's just pray and go for it if God is leading. ANd the music one comes into play too. He said he used to love death metal and all that stuff and that whole scene. At one of his may stints in jail he became roomates with a Christian! The Christian man just loved on him and offered him some of his "Christian heavy metel" stuff. He ended up just giving him the cd's i guess. This man would listen to them every once in awhile and actually thought they were pretty good. He had only known a very conservative Christian environment his whole life. He was amazed they were Christians. He would sometimes throw in these tapes when doing drugs with his friends. after they listened some of them would be like, "man that's good, wher'd you get that?" He'd reply, "Dude, these guys are Christians" and they'd all laugh. But seeds were being planted and God was using it. Then some catholic priest he knew just showed him some love. something that he rarely ever saw. The priest just called him a few times a told him, "if you ever want to talk, i'm here." He never did call, but he said he thought about it all the time and he knew God was real. ANyway, I have lots of neat things like this that I experienced in my own life. It's hard on the flesh to take a criticism from someone who you think is less mature than you. or you may think they're off or whatever. I think God sometimes chooses to use stuff like that because it takes humility to enter into that sort of thing. it's really good for us. It's a good test and a check on our pride.I also want to throw in something practical here. If you're sceptical about the "no tolerance" policy on movies, music, whatever... don't get into arguments about it. I challenge anyone to just try it for one month. if you've never tried it, just try in for one month. if you can't do it for one month, you probably have idols. I feel like that about anything we have. If we can't give it up, it's an idol. I don't think God wants to set up these absolute rules about these specific things that applies to all believers, but I think He does this in our own lives. He can say, "Let go of that" and you don't know if He means for a while or forever. and you don't have to. just go with Him. Let Him actually be Lord in YOUR life and not looking around at what people are telling you. I think most people know what they need to do and what idols they have and stuff. but they'll go kicking and screaming to the grave with these things if they only talk to humans about it. i recommend stop talking to people about it and go straight to God only. If you've never done this it will likely show you another idol you may have, and that's men. When we seek comfort and assurance and talk to men more than to God i think it can be an idol. Watch for that one.

Sorry about the back to back posts on my part, but I just ran across this verse and was wondering how it applies to this thread. I don't think it's been referred to yet.Titus 1:15"To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled."Thoughts?

“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Philippians 4:8-9 NAS95)

Todd,Verse context...“For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.” (Titus 1:10-16 NAS95)

Legalism and Holiness appear to be mirror images of each other. But what could be more holy than losing the affections for the things of this world and gazing into the light of His glory and grace. I think legalism is a two way street. Some show their legalism by what they don't do and disguise it as holiness and others, less talked about, disguise their legalism as "freedom in Christ."The pharisees not only made the law unbearable (the first group), but then conveniently found loopholes for themselves (the second group). We are all too quick these days to attack someone who has come to a realization that there is more to this life than the pursuit of happiness. Underneath the venear of this world lies a secret place. A place where all desires pass away, and the Lord fills the heart. But it can only come at a price. "The Lord suffers no rivals." (A. W. Tozer) I once heard a preacher say that salvation is the only free gift that will cost you your life. But what a trade off.You may celebrate what you are free to do. But I'll show you my joy by what I'm free from. The "good things" of this world are a heavy weight that have weighed down many a "liberated" Christian. Beware lest your Christian liberty becomes your biggest chain.To the one who has found this freedom in Christ: let them call you a legalist, or any name that they can come up with. You just continue to go on to the fullness of Christ untill the veil of this life that separates you from Him seems as thin as a tissue. You will be misunderstood by a Church that has not comprehended the life which has taken ahold of you.(this Paragraph was inspired by the sermon The Cost Of Going All The Way With God by David Wilkerson).In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

I believe that I am responsible for all those around me who are touched by my influence. That's a very good point.In my church, there is no difference between full-time paid staff and lay people who have expressed that they feel called to ministry and who have gone through leadership training and help with the assistance of the ministries of the church.Moses appointed men over thousands and hundreds so that the burden of ministry could be shared.No church member is neglected or passed over. Everyone is prayed for by name every day, and everyone receives a call every week to see how they're doing and if they need specific prayer for any area of their lives.The arms take care of the hands and the hands take care of the fingers.Yes, ministry means servanthood. Jesus taught servant leadership, and that those who would be great among us would be the servants.That's how we do ministry in our church. Check out Exodus 18 if you'd like to see where we got the original idea for this.I am also of the camp that believes we are not all sinners. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. Paul said that if we have been baptised into Christ we have been (always using the past tense) baptised into his death. Sin has no more rule over us.The Scripture says that if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And this is the key: Christ IN us is our hope of glory.AW Tozer, in his book entitled When He is Come, says that it is because we don't give the Holy Spirit His rightful place in our lives that we fail to live a victorious sin-free life.There's an old book by John Wesley that talks about this as well. I think it's called Entire Sactification: Possible in this life.Alot of Christians believe that it is inevitable that we're going to sin everyday for the rest of our lives. To them I would recommend a book called Absolute Surrender by Andrew Murray.In this book Murray teaches on Romans 6 and 7 and makes a few really good observations. When Paul is struggling with sin in chapter 6, notice how many times the words me, my and I are used. The Holy Spirit is not even mentioned once.Then read chapter 7 and find out the key to victory. It is the Holy Spirit doing the work and not us trying to do it by our own strength.Man, I need to get myself in here more often. There have been alot of posts on this topic since I last visited, and it seems like it was just a few days ago. :-P I pray everyone is having a good week. Talk to you guys again soon!