Years ago I read part of the Left Behind series and I've always had a question since then. Does it say in the Bible that there will be Christians after the rapture and will they be with Christ when He sets up His kingdom on earth? It seemed like the authors were saying that there would be another chance for those left behind.
Jordan
I am glad you bring this up because it is dangerous to assume that a person gets a 'second chance' to accept Christ. The Bible does not mention anything about another chance at redemption after the rapture.
I am reminded of the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25:10-13
"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."
These verses tell me that there is no second chance, if you are not ready when Jesus comes, the door is shut.
Hi JaySaved,
Your response was really helpful. Thanks!
:-D
Jordan
I think the bible mentions in revelations that there will be those that will "endure til the end", of the tribulation period. There will also be those that are martyred. Those will be the only ways that one could be saved.
I could be wrong about this, but, I think those that can and will be saved are the jews. The gentiles will have recieved a "strong delusion", which will doom them to hell. None will be able to resist this delusion, except the jews. The gentiles will embrace the antichrist and recieve the mark and be doomed.
The jews will turn to christ during this time and the veil will be removed from their eyes which prevents them from seeing christ, (last chapter of acts). This period (the tribulation), is for the jew to be turned to christ.
I could be wrong about this, but, I think those that can and will be saved are the jews. The gentiles will have recieved a "strong delusion", which will doom them to hell. None will be able to resist this delusion, except the jews. The gentiles will embrace the antichrist and recieve the mark and be doomed.
2 Thess. 2
9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This occurs before the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him" (2 Thess. 2:1)
Jordan, glad to help.
Jaysaved,you say there is no second chance to accept Christ.Peter definately got a second chance.It was so bad with peter that Jesus said "tell the others and Peter".Meaning Peter was "outside the fellowship".I wonder if heaven wont be full of second chancers.The 5 foolish virgins get a second chance in that they go on to be martered by antichrist.All marters after the rapture get saved . That is why it says they "washed their robes".Why did they need washing?.......Thanks,David
Jaysaved,you say there is no second chance to accept Christ.Peter definately got a second chance.It was so bad with peter that Jesus said "tell the others and Peter".Meaning Peter was "outside the fellowship".I wonder if heaven wont be full of second chancers.The 5 foolish virgins get a second chance in that they go on to be martered by antichrist.All marters after the rapture get saved . That is why it says they "washed their robes".Why did they need washing?.......Thanks,David
David, I am not saying that men do not have a second change while they are still alive. I am saying that once Christ comes there is no more second chance. The example of Peter does not apply to this discussion.
Brother, you assume "the 5 foolish virgins get a second chance in that they go on to be martered by antichrist" but their is no scriptural proof of this. The parable ends with the virgins "saying, Lord, Lord, open to us." and Jesus replying "Verily I say unto you, I know you not." followed by the stern warning to us all "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."
The reply Jesus gives is similar to the one He gave in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Also, in Luke 13:25-27, "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."
These verses give no indication of a "second chance" once Jesus comes.
Also look at Jesus' words in describing His coming in Matthew 24, He talks about the flood, and the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah. Could it be that He is not talking about about how society was at these times only, but also that as judgement came, there were no more chances for those who were unrighteous?
JaySaved wrote:Jaysaved,you say there is no second chance to accept Christ.Peter definately got a second chance.It was so bad with peter that Jesus said "tell the others and Peter".Meaning Peter was "outside the fellowship".I wonder if heaven wont be full of second chancers.The 5 foolish virgins get a second chance in that they go on to be martered by antichrist.All marters after the rapture get saved . That is why it says they "washed their robes".Why did they need washing?.......Thanks,David
David, I am not saying that men do not have a second change while they are still alive. I am saying that once Christ comes there is no more second chance. The example of Peter does not apply to this discussion.
Brother, you assume "the 5 foolish virgins get a second chance in that they go on to be martered by antichrist" but their is no scriptural proof of this. The parable ends with the virgins "saying, Lord, Lord, open to us." and Jesus replying "Verily I say unto you, I know you not." followed by the stern warning to us all "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."
The reply Jesus gives is similar to the one He gave in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Also, in Luke 13:25-27, "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."
These verses give no indication of a "second chance" once Jesus comes.
What about all those people during the Millenium? At the end of the thousand years, Lucifer is released from the pit to test and try the Christians, to see if their yes to Jesus the King was truly a yes, and that they will not be swayed by the Evil One.
The only time that there will be no further chances that we know of for anyone to become a Christian is after the White Throne Judgement, when everyone, except those who have been through the Judgement of the Lamb, including the resurrected dead from all times, will be judged.
This is why being caught up in the Rapture is so important. We will not be judged for sin, but only for righteous works done out of love alone for Jesus.
Blessings,
uniquewebrev,Was that a 3 tier post? Am I caught in the middle or do you agree the 10 virgins represent 1/2 Christians going after Jesus and1/2 lukewarm.?...thanks,David
psalm1 wrote:
uniquewebrev,Was that a 3 tier post? Am I caught in the middle or do you agree the 10 virgins represent 1/2 Christians going after Jesus and1/2 lukewarm.?...thanks,David
Yes, David, it was a 3 tier post - 4 tiers are almost impossible to read.
Yes, I read the parable of the ten virgins the same way you do. 5 are not watching and waiting, and 5 are, and it is those that will go up in the harpazo (Rapture), and consequently, go into the wedding supper with the Bridegroom.
It is because of our faith alone that we, among the Christians that will come after the Rapture, will walk from life or death into glory, with no judgement for our sins, only the judgement that is based on works done with the right motive as Jesus judges us, having been human Himself once.
Non-Christians, and those Christians that are brought to their senses by the Rapture, which I believe is the only way to wake up the Laodicean Church, face martyrdom if they cannot hide from the Anti-Christ. I fear greatly for the babes in Christ, like my 83 year old father, who has been a Christian for a little over a year, knows only what the Holy Spirit is teaching him, for how am I, his child, to teach my father? So I trust that his little faith and knowledge, to the point of not even knowing yet really about the Rapture, or much of Christianity, will be sufficient.
Blessings,
The parable of the 10 virgins represents 5 who are true believers (oil in lamps when He comes) and 5 who are false believers (no oil in lamps when He comes).
Paul in 1 Thess. 4, 1 Cor. 15, 2 Thess. 2 gives no indication that "some" Christians will be left. Paul says the dead in Christ will rise and we which are alive and remain will be caught up.
Please, don't put any hope in a second chance during the tribulation and don't encourage anyone or give the that impression.
Jaysaved,Virgins points to purity. This is critical. The 5 foolish virgins are not "lost" but remind me of carnal christians,or those that dont value their walk with God.They are still saved nonetheless.They will go on to be killed by antichrist.That is why it says in rev. that the marters washed their robes. I dont think this encourages anyone to "think they have a false hope" By being martered by antichrist? This seems absolutely sound to me.The terms hope and escape are in the bible.The parable of the 10 virgins, when viewed from your perspective, necessitates extra interpretation of the Virgin designation. Am i right about this? ....
Thanks,David
A virgin with no oil in her lamp when the Bridegroom comes is the same as a man who professes to be a follower of Christ but does not have a saving faith in Jesus Christ.
These 5 virgins represent the same people spoken of in Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
Notice in Matthew 25:11-13 that Jesus tells the virgins without oil the same:
"Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, lord, open to us.' But he answered, 'Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.' Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."
It is incorrect to assume that the 5 virgins without oil are carnal Christians because the bridegroom says He will not open to them because He never knew them. How could Jesus say He never knew a Christian? That would make Him a liar.
QUOTE BY JaySaved;
"A virgin with no oil in her lamp when the Bridegroom comes is the same as a man who professes to be a follower of Christ but does not have a saving faith in Jesus Christ.
These 5 virgins represent the same people spoken of in Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
Notice in Matthew 25:11-13 that Jesus tells the virgins without oil the same:
"Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, lord, open to us.' But he answered, 'Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.' Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."
It is incorrect to assume that the 5 virgins without oil are carnal Christians because the bridegroom says He will not open to them because He never knew them. How could Jesus say He never knew a Christian? That would make Him a liar."
What a stretch to make those two groups one and the same because they both said "Lord"
The parable of the 10 virgins makes it clear they are ALL virgins.(ones not defiled..... Christians)
If that is not enough you further compare those believers without oil to non believers in lawlessness.
Quote"How could Jesus say He never knew a Christian"
Misquoting the scripture.It does not say that
Wow! Five years to respond to a quote. That must be a record for the forum. Wonder if the other poster saw it? Did like the spirit if the thread though.
Bear.
Greeting,
When I came across your post about the ten virgins,.. ?
They were all, pure.
Five kept OIL in their lamps,...considering lamps without oil, are just
empty lamps,..no light. The ONOINTING OIL for us,is the ALIVE light/ lamp,..our light/lamp will go out without the ALIVE OIL.
I was thinking on this just recently,concerning the kingdom of God/heaven.
and the five foolish virigins,and we are called into a Kingdom.
And The kingdom of God, is:
The Resurrected Lord in us,...meaning He comes in,by way of the
Holy Ghost,...not to lie dormant, but to resurrect and be Lord,..rule in our lives,...
If He does not resurrect in us,..the onointing / alive,Light becoming Lord
Over this kingdom,..then are we not liken to the five foolish virgins,that
were made pure ?
God help us,
elizabeth
QUOTE:
"When I came across your post about the ten virgins,.. ?
They were all, pure.
Five kept OIL in their lamps,...considering lamps without oil, are just
empty lamps,..no light. The ONOINTING OIL for us,is the ALIVE light/ lamp,..our light/lamp will go out without the ALIVE OIL.
I was thinking on this just recently,concerning the kingdom of God/heaven.
and the five foolish virigins,and we are called into a Kingdom.
And The kingdom of God, is:
The Resurrected Lord in us,...meaning He comes in,by way of the
Holy Ghost,...not to lie dormant, but to resurrect and be Lord,..rule in our lives,...
If He does not resurrect in us,..the onointing / alive,Light becoming Lord
Over this kingdom,..then are we not liken to the five foolish virgins,that
were made pure ?
God help us,
elizabeth "
Could you clarify a bit? I am not sure what you are saying :)
psalm1 wrote:
"Jaysaved,you say there is no second chance to accept Christ.Peter definately got a second chance.It was so bad with peter that Jesus said "tell the others and Peter".Meaning Peter was "outside the fellowship".
Are you referring to the passage in Mark 16:7? Because if you are, I read that it was "a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side" of Jesus' tomb (Mark 16:5) who said to Mary Magdelene, Mary mother of James and Salome when they arrived at Jesus' tomb: "Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you" (Mark 16:5-7)
So, it was not Jesus who said this about the disciples AND Peter. Also, I thought this was stated about Peter because in Luke's account (Luke 22:60-62) where Peter denied Christ three times, the third time when the cock crowed the Lord looked right at Peter as he denied him the third time and Peter "wept bitterly".
I thought that the statement about Peter and the disciples in Mark 16 was the Lord's way of comforting Peter as he left him in such a state of despair. The Lord's messenger said, "the disciples and Peter" as an inclusive comforting reassurance to Peter. But, perhaps it was...I don't know - just in line with Jesus' loving nature - I interpreted this statement as a reassurance to Peter that the Lord had forgiven him and still included him as a disciple.
Does that make sense?
Love-in-Christ,
KP
Psalm1,
Thank you for responding.
Yes I will try to clarify.....the Lord helping me,...
We are called into a kingdom,and we must come in as litte children,...
humble,..willing to listen and obey our Father,the King,.."(for as many as are led by the Spirit of God,they are the sons/children of God" ),..or we can say: "I will not have this man to reign over me" )...throw His Words to the ground,and DO our words,...(rebel,rebellious)and He will say:("why call ye Me Lord,Lord, and do not what I say"). " I 'KNOW'
ye not,ye workers of iniquity"..
Jn.17:3,..To KNOW Him is Life Eternal,.."to KNOW Him:an anointed,quickening,..(the Holy Spirit/Word),...Oil in our lamps, interaction relationship with the Lord....continual filling with oil,that our lamps go not out...to see where to put our feet ,.."repent,make straight Paths for your feet". and that the world can see that light,and be drawn to it.
"Thy Word is Light "
Jn.1:12,"For as many as recieved Him,to them gave He power 'to become'
The children of God"
Also a little thought about Peter----
** We note the difference in Peter before and after recieveing the Holy Spirit.
* Peter was fearful and denied the Lord, before Pentecost,...he wepted bitterly,(repented),..But after he recieved the holy Spirit at Pentecost with power,he became very bold and strong to do the work of the Lord,..the Lords Grace was upon/with him,...and doesn't history have it, that he went on to be killed for his faith and preaching of the Word ?
Psalm1 ,I hope this has helped,...I am not always good at explanning.
If not,let me hear from you,and I will try again.
Blessings to you,
elizabeth
Psalms1,
Bringing this up for you.
elizabeth
"I do not know you" is not the same as "I never knew you".
He is saying to the individual at this time and in this circumstance I do not know you just as a judge might say to his son that is standing before him in court saying "c'mon dad." The judge would say, "Sir, I do not know you". That is an illustration I borrowed from W. Nee.
They are all virgins, they all went out to meet the groom and they all fell asleep. All the virgins heard the shout that the groom was here. I do not believe that any of these can characterize the lost. All had lights, but some did not have enough oil to keep it burning. This is a solemn warning to believers to be sober and alert so that we will not be ashamed at His coming. As Ravenhill said "if you want to be apart of the bride you have to be divorced from the world." To be filled with the Spirit is to have our lamps burning, the love this present world will keep our oil low.
Matthew 7's context deals with false prophets. I don't believe you can tie that in with the virgins if you carefully compare the two.
"Also a little thought about Peter----
** We note the difference in Peter before and after recieveing the Holy Spirit.
* Peter was fearful and denied the Lord, before Pentecost,...he wepted bitterly,(repented),..But after he recieved the holy Spirit at Pentecost with power,he became very bold and strong to do the work of the Lord,..the Lords Grace was upon/with him,...and doesn't history have it, that he went on to be killed for his faith and preaching of the Word ?"
Well said Elizabeth. Peter's denial and restoration are not examples of whether or not a person that has heard the truth can be saved after the rapture.
Going back to the post...I've always believed the text in 2nd Thess refers to this group of people. That God would send them a delusion to believe a lie because they would not receive the love of the truth. Although I enjoyed Left Behind it always bothered me that they suggest that a person that rejects Christ before the rapture can embrace Him after. Having said that, I only mean that I don't think it is supported in Scripture; I would rather people have a chance to be saved afterwards, but our kind and wise God knows what he's doing.
Here is a quote from amrkelly from another thread:
(I appreciate what the Lord has given you, I hope you don't mind my quoting you, amrkelly. Thank you)
"In reading chapter five of 1 Thessalonians we get a clear exhortation by the Apostle of that Church, as to the substance of the confidence he had, namely that the Thessalonians were themselves walking as children of light. In this letter The Lord is described as coming as a thief in the night. Yet the Thessalonians were not only children of light but were also walking as children of light. It is therefore easy to understand why Paul is confident in them. It also reveals something of the nature of the Lord’s return, which in the first instance is not seen except by those who are awake, walking in the light. To everyone else Jesus is unseen as He takes that which is his possession, as though He were a thief coming in the night so as not to be seen. This is of course only “as a thief” in the night and not "a thief" in the night. We are all His righteous possession so we should expect to be taken by Him. Yet if we sleep and do not walk in the light as He is in the light, we will find that walking in the darkness of this hour in which we live, will prove to result in being left behind. Later Paul revisits this theme in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 because some were disturbing the faith of the Thessalonians by reporting that the Lord had already returned in the hidden way described in 1 Thessalonians chapter five. Clearly if there were no substance to the claim that it may be possible to be left behind at the Lord’s return no one could have been disturbed at all. It is also significant to us today to recognise the same test or criteria which will mark or else prove that hour of the Lord’s return in the clouds before He is become visible to all men."
One that had a great deal of light on this subject was Robert Govett.
hi, i do no think that anyone has the answers to these questions we need not answers for, this is in the hands of God and His plan. the virgins were not ready today. we must be ready to meet Jesus everyday.(choose this day whom you will serve).i am still looking for an answer to a verse in daniel 2... in the days of these kings , the God of heaven shall raise up a kingdom , it will not be ruled by man , it shall break into pieces and engulf the whole earth and it shall last forever.jim
hi, i do no think that anyone has the answers to these questions we need not answers for, this is in the hands of God and His plan....jimp.
It is certain that no man has the answers to the question of the rapture and whether any saints could be left behind, as though through an oracle. But the Scriptures if read in their simplicity (1 Thessalonians chapter 5) do assuredly demonstrate that the Apostle Paul taught the Thessalonian church to live their lives in a state of readiness. He also confirmed the Lord’s teaching that whilst Christ was in the world He was the light of the world. If Christ be now in heaven and we are of Christ then we are become the light of the world, yet the world itself is still in darkness. Indeed the world is the darkness. The ordinary condition of the world is darkness! So when Paul calls the day, darkness and the night a time for sleeping he is drawing an illustration that just as those who sin do so during the night, so those who do not sleep stay awake in the darkness.
“We are not of night, nor of darkness, but let us be alert and sober”. We are to be alert in the darkness, asleep at night and sober during the day. Because we are the children of light we do not get drunk at night as others do, rather we sleep in our beds, and neither in the day do we walk in the darkness because we are now the children of light. Yet the day which follows the night may overtake us, even as Christ’s return will find us asleep if we do not stay awake. To stay awake simply means to be dressed in readiness by not walking in the darkness of this world. Even as to be asleep means to take no account of the true condition of this world, so that we do not continue to love it; accepting that we are strangers and sojourners; having become citizens of another kingdom; no longer citizens of this world. The breastplate of faith and love is that which covers the heart, and the helmet of the hope of salvation is that which covers the understanding mind. The breastplate of faith and love is not the same as the breastplate of Righteousness. The one covers the heart and preserves a saint for Christ at His return through faithfully abiding in the love of Christ, the other covers the whole man and presents him to the Father in heaven for eternity. The helmet of the hope of salvation is not the same as the helmet of Salvation. The one speaks of our hope in Christ which is substantiated by our faith in Him through obedience, even our love for Him. The other speaks of Christ Himself and demonstrated the love of God for the whole world, which love we now understand.
Times and seasons do belong to God yet we have the Scriptures from which can be found the wisdom we need to understand what it means to walk in the light in a day of gross darkness when ungodly men say “Follow me” as though they themselves were Christ. Generalising that because some one is born again it must of necessity mean that they will know how to walk, despite the fact that so much deception abounds in what seems like every place, is bordering on delusional. The characteristic and wonder of revival of God does not bear the marks of the mundane; such times bear the marks of the exceptional rain wherein only the most foolish and hard hearted do not receive a refreshing so as to walk faithfully. In the end though if we have already the gift of eternal life we should not be looking for exceptional rain as though we understood such a day, rather we can look forwards with confidence having our lives weighed in the balance today. If we are obedient now we will have confidence in the Lord’s return though we do not yet see the day. If we are looking for the day of the Lord, then only a fool would not recognise that it is coming in the first instance without visibility so as to make a separation unto God for the Lord’s sake. Only after that season will all things be presented unto the Father in Heaven when the whole harvest will have been brought in.
dear amr, that is why we need to be ready today to meet Jesus.not worry about the things we cannot have anything to do with. escape eternal tribulation and 7 or 3 1/2 years are not the real problem. keep your hands on the plow.good presentation .jimp
I meant to make it more apparent in my comments that it was only a weak oppinion that I am holding, but do not take a strong stand on the matter as to whether or not someone that has heard the gospel and not responded before the rapture can be saved after the rapture. I lean that way because of the text in 2nd Thes.
Concerning the 10 virgins: I believe a number of parables and scriptures make more sense if you believe that Christians will be left behind to endure the tribulation and that they will lose their inheritance of reigning in the 1000 year kingdom. Will not take the time to explore that right now.
I meant to make it more apparent in my comments that it was only a weak opinion that I am holding, but do not take a strong stand on the matter as to whether or not someone that has heard the gospel and not responded before the rapture can be saved after the rapture. I lean that way because of the text in 2nd Thes. ZionSheild.
Perhaps it is the knowledge of suffering ourselves as well as others which makes for a concern for those who today have heard but have not believed. Such a concern cannot be thought of as wrong or erroneous yet wisdom would have us to sift these things with the mind of Christ so as to make a presentation which itself is wise.
It is good to have a weak opinion of something which belongs to God but this does not mean that we cannot understand something which belongs to God if it pleases God to illuminate us for His purposes. I agree that the provocation of 2 Thessalonians chapter two does make for a test as to the time when the Lord will return as is clearly stated in that passage. What is of course not so clearly stated is at what time the Lord will come in the clouds. In Acts we read about the ascension of Christ into heaven and two witnesses appearing to the Apostles to tell them that as they had seen Christ go to heaven, so in the like manner would Christ return (Acts 1:9-11). The Apostles were said to have been gazing intently into the sky, and no wonder they were, yet as intently as they gazed they would not have see anything beyond the sky and the cloud once the cloud had covered the Lord. That Jesus was in the cloud, yet no longer visible is self evident. See Exodus 13:21 & 20:21. Also Matthew 24:30. God has always hidden Himself in the clouds when he has spoken to those He has chosen or else when He is bearing witness of Himself or even The Son, as at the Lord's baptism. In Revelations 1:7 we see what the fullness of God's labours are, though Christ return to the earth in the clouds, (as the witnesses said in Acts 1:9, in like manner as He returned to heaven) so that which is hidden by the cloud is become fully visible again, even Christ Himself. "They shall see Him Whom they have peirced.
The Thessalonian passage has to do with a specific event in time, but so is the Lord's return, though we do not know the hour of it. This does not mean that we cannot encourage one another to look to the Lord's return and at the same time understand that we are not actually looking for the thing spoken of in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:3-9 specifically. If the thought of the Lord's return does not encourage us then let it be for wisdom at least. As the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
The Scriptures which speaks about the 10 virgins and so on are interesting. Your understanding of that would be welcomed.
"I meant to make it more apparent in my comments that it was only a weak opinion that I am holding, but do not take a strong stand on the matter as to whether or not someone that has heard the gospel and not responded before the rapture can be saved after the rapture. I lean that way because of the text in 2nd Thes."..Zionshield
"And he saith unto me, "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev:22.
....................................AND...
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.".........................................
When Jesus returns He gathers on the one hand those that are His, while executing wrath on those who have rejected Him; The door is eternally shut; one into eternal fire, One into eternal Joy.
hi, while in mexico; we were going from saltio to leon and were looking down at the clouds that were below our roadway.and i felt the Lord ask me if i were to stand up with my feet on the ground where would my Head be?the answer was in the air... it was a reminder of what len ravenhill told me about the brning bush... the miracle was that the bush was not being consumed.the third chapter of daniel has all the end time jammed into it yet is skipped over by all those who write about esc.it has a beast, a threatif you dont bow down(take the mark)a thought of escape( our God is able to deliver us from thee oh king) it has a great tribulation heated 7 times hotter ... it has a deliverance for the children THROUGH the fiery furnace by one on earth who looked like the Son(the fourth Man. the reason why the pharisees miss their messiah was that they had it figured out and were wrong.i am going to be ready every day to meet Jesus and let God work out His plan.jimp
I would like to respond to the reply on the 10 virgins sometime. My children keep me busy.
Looking at the text of 2nd Thes. 2:1-12...
If the Holy Spirit is the "One now restraining that is taken out of the way" vs. 7b it is also believed by my school of thought that the church will be taken up at that time...thus the rapture. Chronologically the Anti-Christ will appear after the rapture; based on this we know when these people live that are in question. I believe that the Day of the Lord is not until He comes to destroy the Anti-Christ with the breath of His mouth, so chronologically the account in vs. 3 fits perfectly as the man of lawlessness comes after the rapture and before the Day of the Lord.
(In addition maybe the description in 2nd Peter 3:12-13 is after the 1000 reign and the people rise up one more time led by Satan and we see the destruction of the cosmos.)
Vs. 10 says "among those who are perishing" and later in vs. 12 "all will be condemned". As He waited 400 more years for the Canaanites sin to reach it's full measure before freeing Israel and sending Joshua to destroy them so now those that heard the truth and did not love the truth will receive the delusion that "would have deceived the very elect if possible".
I believe the verse in Revelation that sounded very good in a Johnny Cash song by the way is true to the spirit of this passage: " he that is filthy let him be filthy still."
I see no way around that. This leads me to think of the ways God will bring a gradual ripening of the grapes and then a sudden closing of the door. We see already that the setting is in the apostasy, so most everyone has abandoned the truth.
Just curious jimp, have you lived in mexico?
hi, yes,in leon.under roger west and danny ost.jimp less than a year.
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. (NASB)
When Paul was witting this passage of Scripture we have to remember that Paul was obeying the leading of the Holy Spirit, which in part would have been a need to keep the churches in a state of readiness. For although Paul himself could not have known when the actual day of the Lord would come, he was taught of Christ and therefore just as the other apostles received from the Lord an injunction to be mindful of the Lord’s return, so Paul could have done no other thing but to remind the churches to be sober and dressed in readiness for the Day of The Lord.
This passage clearly sets the subject at hand in that precise context. In doing so Paul speaks about being “gathered together unto Him”. As this is “The Day of The Lord” being spoken of, this gathering must include not only the Thessalonian church, but it must include all the churches as well as those who are asleep in Christ. The Ten Virgins passage deals with the latter, (those who are asleep) but this passage as well as 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5 deals with those who are alive. We also have to remember that the 1st letter to the Thessalonians was written first and would have been read and believed before the 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians. So when Paul speaks about being “gathered unto Him (Christ)” here in the 2nd letter he is speaking in the context of having said “For [you] know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night” (v3), in the 1st letter. All the things which Paul previously taught through speech and confirmed in a letter; about apostasy [coming] first, and the man of lawlessness [being] revealed, [called] the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, [taking] his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God; are now reminded by his second written Word. The spoken Word was in the 1st letter and the written Word was in the 2nd letter because Paul was absent when the 2nd letter became necessary and could not have been spoken.
The cause was deception which was coming upon this church, and although the first letter also speaks about “being disturbed” this disturbance was possible because Paul himself was being persecuted. To this Paul sent timothy as a comfort and as an encouragement. There is no evidence that the persecution which the Thessalonians were experiencing themselves was a “disturbance”.
Although we do not read in either of these two passages that this gathering is in the air, what we do read is that there is a gathering, which precedes the coming of the Lord as a thief in the night, and that this coming of the Lord as a thief in the night is itself preceded by apostasy (first), and the revealing of the Man of Sin [second]. The revealing of this man of sin whilst it is conditional, his activities, as described in this passage are not conditional to the gathering. They are merely descriptive of his intentions and subsequent actions after he is revealed. Paul then says “and you know what retrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.” (v6) The restraint spoken of here is a restraint of an outcome, and the outcome is the appearing of the man of sin. The man of sin has a time and the time is appointed by God Himself. Though he is wicked, even as Satan is wicked, he cannot just appear to suit himself; neither can Satan just make it happen. It is an appointed time and he will be restrained from being revealed until that which restrains ceases to retrain him. What is it which restrains? It is the preaching of the Gospel of grace by the power of The Holy Spirit. We need also to keep to the reason as to why this man of sin is eventually released upon the earth. It is to [deceive] those who perish, because “they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
It is also necessary to make a distinction between the man of sin being “revealed” and his principle blasphemies, declaring himself to be God and thereby causing those who see him to worship him as God.
When Jesus was crucified the inscription or the charge above the Lord’s head was “King of the Jews”. This was the only legal basis for The Lord’s death sentence under Roman law. When The Lord asked the disciples “who do men say that I Am” Peter was able to declare “Thou art the Christ, The Son of the Living God.” One time we read how the people wanted to take Jesus and declare Him “King”, (John 6:15) but The Lord prevented it from happening. When The Lord came into Caesarea Philippi He also forbade the disciples to reveal that He was the Christ. Yet Jesus also made preparation for his triumphant entrance into Jerusalem as “King”, fulfilling the prophecy “SAY TO THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, ‘BEHOLD YOUR KING IS COMING TO YOU, GENTLE, AND MOUNTED ON A DONKEY, EVEN ON A COLT, THE FOAL OF A BEAST OF BURDEN.’”. Matthew 21:1-11. In this triumphal entrance into Jerusalem Jesus was understood to be a prophet though He comes in fulfilment of a prophecy which speaks of Christ as King, to the daughter of Zion; even Israel. The fact that He was the Christ of God was by this time hidden. (v11). Though the singing in this passage is in accordance with prophecy, the words spoken are in accordance with the understanding of men. Jeremiah 11:20 & 12:2b-4.
This entrance into Jerusalem by Jesus, as King, is the same in meaning as the words “when that which retrains is taken out of the way” and corresponds to the man of sin being declared and accepted through lying signs and wonders as a prophet of God and thereafter as Christ. Just as Jesus made this entrance into Jerusalem and was thereafter understood to be a prophet, so in his day of being revealed will the man of sin also be declared a prophet of God! That which restrains, namely the preaching of The Gospel of Grace, will be taken out of the way by the bride being raptured into the air to meet with Christ Who will be hidden in the clouds. Thereafter this same “prophet of God” will show himself to be the Christ of God as well by seeming to be raised from the dead; a political prophet to a religious messiah. He will be helped in this by another prophet who has the same power as the first prophet but whose determination is to cause all men to worship the first prophet (Beast). Revelations Chapter 13.
At this time Both Christ Himself as True Christ and the man of sin as anti-christ will complete the number of days allotted before the true end of this age comes; Christ as the Bridegroom and the man of sin as a blasphemer in Jerusalem. During this same time the two witnesses will fulfil their purpose and calling for 1260 days (Revelations Chapter 11) in restraint of the wickedness of that day after which the beast will come up out of the abyss and destroy them. This destruction causes some to celebrate. After three and a half days these two witnesses are raised from the dead and are called up to the clouds after which a great earthquake destroys a tenth of the city and causes through great fear some to glorify God in the heavens. What follows this is the revelation of true wickedness, even the man of sin. Not simply the king of the Jews, but the resuscitated false messiah. What follows this revelation of that man will be so wicked that his wickedness is retrained only by a restraint of days not a restraint of the two witnesses or the preaching of the Gospel of Grace.
To understand how the man of sin is both a political man fulfilling the need for “peace peace” in that day, and afterwards becoming a blasphemer is not easy. The man of the first three and a half years, is wounded with a fatal wound, yet he is resuscitated from the dead and the beast of the abyss takes possession of his body and becomes the very fulfilment of the mystery of iniquity which is the last hour of this age and the beginning of the reign of Satan himself in visibility of a man and an idol speaking with the voice of a man; speaking blasphemies and causing all that do not worship him to be put to death. From Revelations 11 we read that after the two witnesses have finished their prophesying then the beast comes up out of the sea. The end of this age is the culmination of a blasphemy which began with Judas Iscariot and will conclude in this man of sin. He is a king. He is one of seven kings. He is the fifth of seven kings. He is also an eight King.
It is also the beginning of the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven, though at this time it is a reigning from the clouds. The removal of the two witnesses into heaven by a cloud outrages the nations who previously through fear were compelled to glorify God, and in that rage Satan as the red dragon is finally cast down to the earth having just a short time to remain. The time allotted for the Red Dragon is three and a half years.
To understand whether anyone can be saved during this period of seven years it is only necessary to understand that as long as the Gospel of Grace is preached then men can be saved. Once the Bride having made ready, and is raptured, there will be no more the preaching of the gospel in the nations. After this rapture of the Bride those who are left will be perfected through tribulation and will be kept and cared for by those Who God has prepared for that hour. The nations on the other hand will be ministered to by the hand of God directly through judgement, but will prove to be hard hearted and incapable of repentance. As will the many of Israel as well.
Paul’s concern for the Thessalonians was a concern of being troubled by a claim that the Day of The Lord had come. In such a concern those believers could easily have been harmed by those who in a spirit of deception, or in speech or by letters would stand in contradiction of what Paul had taught them in person just a few months previously.
Some today assert that to make a study of these things is vain and that all we have to do is to know the Lord Himself and all will go well for us. Some assert that tribulation is just around the corner and that the only remedy is to be dressed in readiness for tribulation. When Paul taught the Thessalonians that Christ was to come in the first instance as a thief in the night, he was doing that which was required of him and which understanding proved his apostleship to the gentiles. If he had said anything other he would have become false. Yet Paul did not say to the Thessalonians that they would in fact witness the end of the age and the man of sin. He simply spoke prophetically concerning something which was appointed by God Himself for the end of the age. Some speaking about their nation speak as though there were any nation other than Israel which lies at the heart of what God has appointed for the day of abominations. In doing this these men neglect to understand that they are themselves being led of the Spirit to a concern for their nation according to their nation, and not a concern for Israel, the apple of God’s eye, according to Scriptures.
Speaking plainly it is to me a distinction between what is coming upon America and perhaps a few other nations as well. This end time we live in needs to be understood according to God’s calling in our own lives as well as by Scripture. It is unlikely that God will lead someone to a concern which will be of no relevance to an individual. On the other hand any such leading of God itself needs to be understood as well. It is possible to be concerned for Israel yet have nothing to do with Israel at all. For those who live in America, which is the greatest sanctuary of Jews outside the present state of Israel, such a concern may not point to the state of Israel but to those Jews who live in America itself. In any event we should be aware of what God has called us to be concerned with as well as how to walk in the place we live. The judgement which is coming on America and a few other nations may be by reason of that nation’s blasphemies and wickedness or by embracing that nation’s blasphemies and wickedness the basis for God’s judgement. This is distinct to what is coming upon Israel by reason of God’s appointment for a purpose of God for Israel according to Scriptures; a nation which is not reckoned by God amongst the nations. America has already laid the foundations of its own destruction as have those nations which have followed in her sins. These nations have in essence rejected the Gospel of Truth even though they speak about God and Christ; yet practise selfishness and individualism as well as breaking all of God’s laws, thereby making God’s grace vain for many and amounts to drunkenness for others. Israel is yet to fully reject the gospel of grace even though Israel has already rejected Christ. There is a day of hope to Israel when Elijah will declare the Gospel of the Kingdom Come. Only after this gospel is fully rejected will Israel finally be given over to the fullness of a delusion, even the man of sin being seemingly raised from the dead. This mystery of inequity speaks of one body of a man, two expressions of life; something nearly impossible to comprehend.
The book of Revelations is one of those books of Scripture which represents both prophecy and explanations or interpretations of that which was, which is, and which is to come.. Where there is an interpretation is would be unwise to again make of that a mystery, even though the explanation itself still represents prophecy.
Quote:
"Years ago I read part of the Left Behind series and I've always had a question since then. Does it say in the Bible that there will be Christians after the rapture and will they be with Christ when He sets up His kingdom on earth? It seemed like the authors were saying that there would be another chance for those left behind."
Hi Jordan,
I once belived the myth of rapture before the tribulation but thanks God I found out that not only is this view unbiblical and a modern day invention but it has never been taught in the early church wich was persecuted under the Roman empire.
You think that the apostolic sucesors of the 2nd century would have not taught rapture before trib if it was biblical? Sure they would have taught it, but such a thing did not even exist then, even as an option.
In the book of Revelaton there are saints throughout the tribulation period and many of them will be persecuted at the later half of 7 year trib.
Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 he makes it clear the order of events. First resurrection from the dead and then the Rapture:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
In Matthew 24: 29-31, its after the tribulation that the Son of Man comming on the clouds will send his angles will a loud trumpet call to gather the elect from the four corners of the earth:
“Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Who are these elect scattered around the world? They are the faithful christians and believing jews, both waiting for their Messiah. Not only there will be christians during the tribulation but some of the most godly and most saintly men since the apostolic age will witness of Jesus during tribulation. The holy fires of revival will spread among the persecuting church and they together with the believing jews will finish the work of evengelizing the whole world as prophesied it will happen before Jesus second coming.
Blessings,
Redi
I once belived the myth of rapture before the tribulation but thanks God I found out that not only is this view unbiblical and a modern day invention but it has never been taught in the early church wich was persecuted under the Roman empire. elected.
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we, who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Although these two passages of Scripture both speak about the Lord’s return there is one profound distinction between them. The one is the Lord in the clouds which therefore cannot be visible and the other is The Lord on the clouds which cannot be but visible. It is foolish to speak of mid-tribulation rapture as a myth. Likewise it is foolish to assert that an absence of 2nd and 3rd century evidence for something is “proof” of a myth as well. The 2nd and the 3rd century church is the very same church which bore the consequences of heresy by ravaging wolves as Paul warned continuously with tears. It has taken nearly 1900 years for the full gospel to come back into understanding of the saints. This restoration of Truth has cost countless saints their lives in their own blood. If the saints in America dismiss the possibility that we are called to be dressed in readiness so as to become the bride of Christ then this may be because such a possibility is removed from America on account of the blasphemies and heresies which have come out of the church in America in the last 200 years. It is a matter of the spreading of a gospel which is no gospel at all and the deluding of many and the ruination of nations as well.
Yes peter did end well.He did become an anointed servant.
My point in initially bringing up peter,was the fact that he did seem to get a "second chance".
I personally believe the martyred saints (by antichrist decapitation) do receive a "second chance".
Yes I believe I did misquote that as being Jesus as you pointed out.
But Peter clearly left the "fold" after Jesus' death.
That is why he is not referenced/included as a disciple.
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Quote; 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Who are these elect scattered around the world? They are the faithful christians and believing jews, both waiting for their Messiah. Not only there will be christians during the tribulation but some of the most godly and most saintly men since the apostolic age will witness of Jesus during tribulation to the other.
Who are these elect scattered around the world? They are the faithful christians and believing jews, both waiting for their Messiah. Not only there will be christians during the tribulation but some of the most godly and most saintly men since the apostolic age will witness of Jesus during tribulation
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Look again at that scripture. ".........from one end of the heavens to the other"
They are already in heaven.They are gathered from heaven.
There will be christians still on earth during the trib period.They ALL get their heads chopped off. In fact,it is God's will. Power is given to the anticrist to overcome Christians.Do you see that? Power is given to him to chop their heads off.
Here they are,in heaven,the carnal have now WASHED THEIR ROBES.(They were dirty,carnal)
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Now,why are they not in the place of the martyrs(Under the altar)?
Remember,the Martyrs had to stay under the altar until their number be fulfilled!
Can we conclude that their number is fulfilled about mid trib?
This destroys any notion that the saints are wondering around at the end of the trib period.
The clearer teaching of the New Testament is that persrcution and martyrdom will continue to increase right up into the return if Christ. Even during tbe tribulation there will be saints who will be imprisoned and martyred.
Persecution and martyrdom has always been the testimony of tbe church in times past and present. No doubt it will be the testimony of tbe church in times in tbe future.
Bearmaster..
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Quote;"The clearer teaching of the New Testament is that persrcution and martyrdom will continue to increase right up into the return if Christ.
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I have never seen this clearer teaching you speak of.What is it?
Did you know,that the scripture teaches ALL the saints left behind are martyred?7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
The martyrs are confined under the alter ,are they not?
And yet there they are,mid trib,ALL in heaven,away from the altar,worsipping God.
I think you miss the point of the Bridegroom/bride.
Heaven is not defined through the tribulation period.
Bro I have read the book. New Testament that is. Tbe NewTestament teaches one resurrection of tbe saints. Not two as pre and mid rbbers imply. The one resurrection will be when Jesus returns to wrap things up on this planet.
As for there being martyrs in tbe end times I agree. But we will be those martyred. That is what some of us have been saying on this forum. That is what tbe conference in Atlanta was all about.
The bride will go through tbe great tribulation. This is tbe testimony of scripture. This is the testimony of tbe persecuted church. We will be imprisoned and martyred during tbe great tribulation.
Have you listened to tbe conference messages? Have you seen the thread on The Spirit of Glory. The glory of tbe bride will not be found in a secret rapture. But tbe glory of the bride eill be her refined in the fires of persecution.
No brother. I do understand tbe teaching if tbe bride and how she will be refined through tbe fires of persecution. Even during the great tribulation.
Bearmaster.
Could you post the scriptures that point to your teaching?
Thaks,David
Psalm I went back and looked at your last lost. Maybe we are on the same page. I do agree that there will be martyrs in tbe end times. Us that is. I do not see tbe teaching of two resurrections.
So maybe you can clarify where we differ.
Bearmaster.
David be glad to. But gotta break now. But before we get lost in confusion. What exactly is your position?
Bearmaster
Are you referring to two second comings?
Most post trib adherants try and make the rapture and the second coming one event.
They ignore any scriptures that clearly make the rapture a separate event.
here is a list that clearly refutes a post trib rapture
1- The complete anahilation of the saints by antichrist
2-The 10 virgins parable
3-Martyrs no longer under the altar in heaven
4-The marriage supper in heaven before the 2nd coming
5-The bride is now the wife in heaven at the end of the trib period.
6-the 144k Jews are in heaven before the end of the trib period
7-The 2 witnesses are raptured before the end of the Tib.
8-You have the raptured saints,the 144k,the 2 witnesses,the martyrs,ALL IN HEAVEN before the end of the trib.
9-The angels gather the elect FROM HEAVEN to join Jesus in the second coming.
10- The white horses have riders (the wife) that accompany Jesus to earth to destroy the antchrist.
How does post trib doctrine explain all this away?
Where is the biblical teaching that a wife is only worthy after she is beaten up?
My position is that the catching up of the bride (10 virgin parable) is the center of the heart of God and heaven.
Note Jesus final words "I go an prepare a place for you,THAT WHERE I AM YOU MAY BE ALSO"
It all happens in heaven.Post trib has to force fit the events to earth.
They have taken a position that paints themselves into a spiritual corner BIG TIME.
The bible testifies totally against this erroneous doctrine of post trib.
I can not even imagine forming any doctrine over the absurdities of"We just think God wants a beaten wife" or "History proves the early church was post trib" as if they had no bibles back then.
Note this list of overcomers and WHERE they received rewards..........in heaven.
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
David you bring up several points. First are you aware of what the SI conference was about? Have you listened to Brian Long's message on Upcoming Persecution and tbe Baptism of tbe Spirit? Have you seen the thread by Apolous on The Spirit of Glory.
Brother read through First Peter. Just a glance st that book will show the refining aspects of persecution and how God used it. That is tbe key. How God uses it.
God uses persecution to purify one's faith and to bring out tbe glory of God in them. My time us limited to post verses. But do a Bible search. The New Testament speaks how God uses persecution to purify and refine one's faith. Again 1 Peter us a good book to start in
Will try to return to this thread if time permits but must run. Will try to read 1 Peter myself and direct you to some verses.
Bearmaster.
Check out the thread kn The Spirit of Glory. May answer some of your questions.
hi, i implore all of you to allow God to carry out His plan and not take any thought of what you cannot control by anything you can do. be ready to meet Jesus and your judgement TODAY.this is the real meaning of the virgins.today is the day of salvation,choose this day who you will serve,faith is now.31/2 yrs.,7yrs.who knows for sure but eternal damnation is the real tribulation.jimp
So true.yes he does.In fact we are promised persecution.
What do you make of these verses?;
Luke 21;
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
rev 3;
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
You cannot possibly compare the tribulation promised to the followers of Jesus to the one dimensional persecution of antichrist during the great tribulation.
Read it yourself.He kills every single believer.It says EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE PLANET ACCEPTS THE MARK.They sell their souls to the devil.EVERY SINGLE PERSON.Nobody is left out!The ones without a mark have no heads.THEY ALL,ALL,ALL are dead.
It is only in your mind that believers are dodging hailstones of fire and plagues from God.It is not in scripture.
What's the purpose of the Tribulation? If Christ bore Gods wrath for those who belong to Him then why would they have to go through it? I'm sorry but people are not saved because they refuse a mark, become martyrs, or faithfully endure, as if these are free passes.
Those antichrist kills are not murdered over "a" mark.
Do not confuse God's judgement of the unbeliever with Satan's persecution of the believer.
Bearnaster.
I have not read this thread... I just want to make a comment:
Make sure you base your eschatology upon the Word of God, and not upon the Left Behind series or cheesy early 70's Christian "end times" movies.
Krispy
I agree because, as we all know there is only one people "caught away" mentioned in the scriptures and that is in Revelations 12 when speaking of the "man-child" being birthed 3 1/2 years into the tribulation: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was [immediately] caught up unto God, and to his throne." Revelation 12:5 (KJV)
Matthew Henry has the man-child as being a many membered body comprised of the "serious" Christians__the Woman being the Church.
I believe Rev 12 and 13 cooperate with 1 Thess 4:17, which will take place at the end of the seven year period.
scripture clearly proves this is false
Cheesy end times movies. You mean Like Thief in tbe Night or A Distant Thunder. Gee Krispy. I like them because they remind me when we used to sit around singing that song by Larry Norman, I Wish We All Been Ready. A song about the pretrib rapture.
No, I will not base my eschatology on those movies. But they do evoke a kind of nastalga.
Bearmaster
I dont come down on any side of the rapture debate. I just dont have a clear understanding of it. I'm ok with that.
This much I know tho... God's wrath is not intended for His elect. Over and over throughout scripture we see God's wrath being poured out on a wicked people... and yet He always provided safety for His elect, usually by removing them from the situation.
Many Christians today seem to think that all Christians will go thru God's wrath here on earth. Maybe we will, I dont know. But many of these people act as tho this will be some sort of punishment upon Christians or something... no, Christ took our punishment. God's wrath has been removed from our lives. Chastised, yes! Punished, no.
Krispy
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17 (KJV)
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Revelation 12:11 (KJV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Revelation 13:7-10 (KJV)
Who are the "saints" and who are the "they" mentioned? Those questions need be answered.
Brother I think you answered your question with tbe first verse you posted out of Rev.12:17. The saints are those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.. These are the ones Satan is making war against even in this day and age. These are the ones who are called tbe persecuted church. This has been their testimony in times past, present, and in tbe time to come. These are the ones who follow the Lamb where ever he goes. These are the ones who are victorious over Satan.
My thoughts.
Bearmaster.
I love it!! Thanks. Take it all a dimension further to see there is yet those more dedicated who become the "man-child".
[the woman being 'mother Church' in Rev 12 who goes 'underground'??] [not be confused with RCC.]
Very prophetic insight. That would certainly be indicative of tbe underground church we see in restrictive nations today. No doubt, there will be an underground church in tbe time of the antichrist. This is the persecuted church.
If we look in nations such as N. Korea we can see how the book of iRevelation is being lived out. N. Korea is about as demonic and antichrist as one can find. The leader if N. Korea is to be revered and worshipped as god alone. Christians who fail to do so are hunted down and executed. That is merciful. Others are thrown into death camps where they die a slow death.
Yet these saints continue to remain faithful to Jesus. They will not renounce tbeir faith in tbe slain Lamb of God. The gospel is making inroads into N. Korea. A harvest is slowly coming forth. Brave evangelist, knowing tbeir lives will be forfeit in a short time still take the gospel into N. Korea.
This is one example of saints who are overcoming Satan by the blood of the Lamb, tbe word of their testimony, and not loving tbeir lives unto death.
Bearmaster
Amen Brother! Half the world is in what we can see as pre-trib conditions and only to get worse. Lets also keep our eye on the Islamist thing to be the Christian "headhunters in all this coming down the pike. Obama & co. have taken great strides in bringing about the Anti-Christ scenario soon to happen worldwide regardless of who wins the upcoming elections and Christians will suffer greatly.
OMT, Our churches of today aren't prepared and, with much cheerleading fanfare, are still being told they won't be here when all this takes place. I believe our churches need to wake up and smell what's in the air. Read Rev 2,3,12 and 13 and make application. We need to evangelize our churches..
Question: Can we say we are ready, regardless of being right or wrong about a "traditional" rapture happening, to meet what is coming and be victorious in Christ__for Christ?
Thanks for your agreement and comments.
Brother agree the western church does need to wake up. Jesus echoes this in tbe first three chapters of Revelation when he says he that has an ear let him hear what tbe Spirit us saying to the churches. God is warning tbe church. But tbe question is are we listening? Even to the worldly church of Laodicea he was still knocking at the door striving to get their attention
To answer your question. Irregardless of ones position on tbe rapture. I do not think the church in tbe West is ready or prepared to meet what is coming. But God willing, do believe a remnant is waking up. This was evidenced by tbe Sermon Index conference s few weeks ago on upcoming persecution. I do believe there are a few who are waking up and heeding tbe urgency of tbe hour. Brother sounds like you be one of those.
Bearmaster
"by bearmaster on 2012/10/25 12:30:00
Brother agree the western church does need to wake up."
Thanks again, Bear!
In reading Matthew 24 we see this by Jesus at the end of His answering the Disciples question as to when all these things will take place. He says:
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV)
Now, aside from what we read about the "man-child" in Rev 12 in the middle of the tribulation being "raptured", when is another before that time period we have been led to believe, that the elect, along with the church, will be caught away to escape these things, deemed by Jesus, to be the tribulation?
"Very prophetic insight. That would certainly be indicative of tbe underground church we see in restrictive nations today. No doubt, there will be an underground church in tbe time of the antichrist. This is the persecuted church."
Well,maybe for a very short time till the ones left behind are martyered. Where do you think the Christians hide from antichrist?
Are you aware that he is given power over the saints and overcomes them?
Are you aware that ALL the saints are martyred by him?
Are you aware that every single man woman and child (alive) on the face of the earth takes the mark of the beast?
Are you aware that every single one of the 144k Jews are ALL martyred? EVERY SINGLE ONE?
Are you aware that BOTH the 2 witnesses,and the 144k are raptured to heaven before the end of the trib. period?
Are you aware,that no other doctrine to date has based it's theory on the premise that we must not offend the persecuted brethren in 3rd world countries?
Are you aware that the marriage supper takes place in heaven before the end of the trib period?
Are you aware that the bride has become the wife in the latter part of the book of revelation,indicating and verifying the wedding has taken place before the end of the tribulation period?
Are you aware that the white horses that accompany Jesus from heaven are occupied by the saints,and half or so of those are the tribulation saints?
Why in the world would all this be bypassed,and those that read these passages and reconcile them as truth be called names and ascribed some weak escapist labeling?
Just wondering
quote;"Now, aside from what we read about the "man-child" in Rev 12 in the middle of the tribulation being "raptured", when is another before that time period we have been led to believe, that the elect, along with the church, will be caught away to escape these things, deemed by Jesus, to be the tribulation?"
If a person were to remove all the scripture on the martyred,the Antichrist,the wedding,the heavenly scene with the bride/wife,the white horses,and jesus'ownn words concerning the placement of the church along with his "escape/flee" references.......perhaps the postrib view would indeed make sense.
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