End of 69th week

Explanation From the going forth of the order to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the King was 69 weeks of years. 483 years. April 5th 32 AD was the probable date that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the Colt of an ass and thus ended the 69 weeks. Jesus was crucified 5 days later and the church age began at Pentecost 50 days after that. The Church Age is a period of unknown length after which comes the final week of Daniels 70 weeks. The 70 weeks are for Israel, and Gods plan to bring them back to Himself. The Church is the Parenthesis between the 69th week (Apr 5 32AD and the start of the Tribulation or more accurately the 70th week)
We therefore cannot be part of this when the Church is full we are out of here.

Maranatha.

Wynner01

It's sad that you believe that. Because Daniel is quoting from Jeremiah. (The 70 weeks/years) Then Zechariah states that these '70 years/weeks' are occurring during his time.

Zech. 1:12 (NASB)
12 Then the angel of the LORD said, "O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant [b]these seventy years[/b]?"

The book of Daniel was written in 605 BC - 562 BC.
The book of Jeremiah was written in 586 B.C.
That book [of Zechariah] was written in 520-518 BC.

So, somewhere between 520-518 B.C. these 70 years/weeks were occurring (Zech.1:12,7:5), according to the written Word of God. What year was it when Zech. wrote those two verses? I have no idea. But, I'm willing to give a rough guess. (Using the origin of the dates)

If the '70 years/weeks' started at the writting of Jeremiah. And also, if '70 years/weeks' is literal then look at the work below.

586 - (minus) 70 = (equals) 516 B.C. *(This marks the completion of '70 years/weeks')
So, that would put Zech. around year...66 to 68th year.

But, if the '70 years/weeks' really means 490 years. (This is said by many pre-tribbers, how they get that is....70 times 7. Why? I have no idea, but still [u]could[/u] be possible)

586 - (minus) 490 = (equals) 96 B.C. *(This marks the completion of '70 years/weeks')
So, that would put Zech. around '9th' to '10th' year of these long '70 years'.

So, according to your post (which is the popular belief of 'pre-tribers') says that the 70 years occurs between 32 A.D.- 450 B.C. (or so; give or take 5 years). That goes against what Scripture is stating in Zech. 1:12 & 7:5.

So, my question is:
Why does the '70 years/weeks' start at 450 B.C. instead of earlier about 100 years?

Hi everyone.

Hi Lovegrace,

"Why does the '70 years/weeks' start at 450 B.C. instead of earlier about 100 years"

I think there is a really neat passage from the book of Nehemiah, chapter 2, that looks to be exactly what the angel mentions to Daniel chapter 9, concerning the start of the weeks, where it says

[i]...And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king[/i]v1

Nehemiah asked of him...

[i]...that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.[/i]v5

and also

[i]If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah[/i]v7

which it appears he was granted

[i]...And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.[/i]v8

I think it matches very well because it appears that everything concerning these weeks was to commence [i] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem[/i].

And also, maybe you are thinking of the 70 years of captivity mentioned by Jeremiah? This passage in Daniel 9 looks as though it was given by revelation from the angel. What do you think?

Chris

Interesting Chris, I had to do some research to answer this question because many things that I believe about the prophetic books are being developed. (Just like this answer)

These 70 years/weeks started with Jeremiah.

Dan. 9:2 (NASB)

2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years [b]which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet[/b] for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, [b]seventy years.[/b]

So, Daniel was reading Jeremiah's book and then he repented on behalf of Israel. (Dan. 9:3-19) Then Gabriel helps with the answer/understanding of the '70 years/weeks'. (Dan.9:20-27) *I say '70 years/weeks' because Jeremiah/Daniel/Zechriah say 'years' but then Gabriel says 'weeks'*

So, the root of where these '70 years/weeks' was Jeremiah 24:11,29:10. Then Daniel and Zechariah speak of it as well. (Dan. 9:2,9:24; Zech. 1:12,7:5) Surprisingly, it's also written in 2 Chron. 36:21-22.

Now, to answer your other question. Was the 70 years fulfilled in the Book of Nehemiah?

I'm not sure, but [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#The_Scriptural_.22Artaxerxes.22]This link believes so[/url]

Hmm, maybe. Here is a quote from that link.

From the destruction of Jerusalem in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar until the Temple was fully rebuilt in the sixth year of Darius I(Hystaspes), producing a time frame of 586-516 BC or 70 years. (Jer. 52;12-14; Ezra 6:15)

Sounds accurate to me. But where does the 'Messiah' part come in? And the 'cutting off' part? And the division of the years, 7, 62 then one final year. What does history say about those?

These are questions, I'm now asking if this is true. Which, to me, seems to be. 8-)

Hi again Lovegrace :-)

"Was the 70 years fulfilled in the Book of Nehemiah?"

Well, actually I was suggesting that this passage in Nehemiah gives us the [b]staring[/b] point for these weeks.

Remember, the angel told Daniel that...

"...[u][b]from[/b] the going forth[/u] of the [b]commandment[/b] [u]to restore and to [b]build[/b] Jerusalem[/u] unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

So I'm seeing a distinction here, between what Jeremiah foretold, the 70 years captivity, which had been or was now ending, and this which the angel was revealing to Daniel, these 70 weeks. And I see these elements, the commandment or decree to rebulid the city and so forth in the passage in Nehemiah. Something else to consider here, that a week is a unit of 7 and these weeks then could at least be considered as 70 units of 7, whether you take them to be years or not. This is how it is understood then to be 490 years.

Hope this is more clear as to what I was thinking of in making refrence to the passage in Nehemiah. Hope i'm not making this more confusing. Let me know :-)

Chris

How can you say that Nehemiah is the 'starting point', when it clearly shows in Zech. that the 70 years are occuring.

Then Compliments, you state that 70 years are 70 weeks. I disagree because in Zech. it states that it is 70 years. Which Zech. was written AFTER Daniel.

Gen.29 isn't a valid defense for '70 times 7', in maintaining the balance of scripture. Something you learn about hermeneutics is that 'scripture cannot say what it doesn't say'. Gen. 29 [b]doesn't[/b] say that one year means seven. But instead Jacob wanted to serve one year for Leah and seven for Rachel because he loved Rachel more (vs.30).

The scripture in Gen.29 doesn't say, "One year means seven." It shows that Jacob served 8 years for two women. Let's not go outside of what the scripture says.

Nonetheless, both of you brought up a good point about the 70 years being the captivity of babylon.

Did the temple that Nehemiah restored stop their captivity, if so then that points to the fulfillment is within scripture?

Daniel 9
Daniel's Prayer for His People
1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans-- 2in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

Lovegrace, Daniel read in Jeremiah the following:
Jeremiah 25:11-13
"This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste. I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations."

Daniel seeing that the seventy years of Captivity was to end soon confessed to the Lord the sin of Israel. The Lord sent His angel Gabriel to tell Daniel about the future and the coming of the Messiah. Daniel is told about 70 periods of seven years in the future not about the 70 years of captivity.

You are confusing the 70 years of Jewish captivity with the 70 sevens from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

JaySaved,

I've posted already a majority of what you said.

But, '70 sevens' doesn't line up with scripture, as far as I've seen.

Also, even IF, '70 sevens' were true it doesn't like up with the time frame. (For example, it would off about 100 years.)

From the prophesy given in Jeremiah it would take 586 years, not 483.(Which is what some say.) There are 103 years UNACCOUNTED for, if '70 sevens' are true.

But yet, 70 literal years after Jeremiah spoke, Nehemiah rebuilt the temple. If that's not a fulfillment, then I think something is wrong.

I don't see how Daniel and Jeremiah are saying two different things, which seems to be what your saying JaySaved. I believe these 70 years are already fulfilled with the rebuilding of the temple in the book of Nehemiah.

To say that the '70 years' didn't start until Nehemiah is totally forgetting the scripture in Zech., where it shows that the '70 years' are occurring.

When a prophetic word is spoken, it gets fulfilled. It's a heavenly knowledge of the future. We don't have to twist anything to make it 'seem' true like those weird secular people. Jeremiah prophesied that it would be 70 years and in 70 literal years the temple was rebuilt.

If you can show me and solid proof that this is incorrect, by all means, I'll submit.

But when in 586 B.C. Jeremiah prophesies that the babylonan captivity will last 70 years and Daniel say that it also marks the rebuilding of the temple then in 516 B.C. (70 years later) The temple IS rebuild and people are returning to their home land, Israel.

I don't see how that isn't the fulfillment.

wynner01 wrote:
The Church is the Parenthesis between the 69th week (Apr 5 32AD and the start of the Tribulation or more accurately the 70th week)
We therefore cannot be part of this when the Church is full we are out of here.

I believe this is the "Parenthesis" you are talking about.

[b]Romans 11:25[/b] [color=990000]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, [b]until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.[/b]
[b]26[/b] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[b]27[/b] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[b]28[/b] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.[/color]

First, let's look at Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Seventy weeks are determined to do the following:
1. Finish the transgression
2. Make an end of sins
3. Make reconciliation for iniquity
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
5. Seal up vision and prophecy
6. Anoint the most holy.

None of those things were fulfilled when Nehemiah rebuilt the temple.

Also, the prophesy says that from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah will be 69 “weeks/sevens”. Your interpretation fails to account for the prophesy of Jesus. Jesus did was not born until around 4 B.C. and was not anointed until around 26 A.D. and was not crucified until around 29 A.D. How can you say this prophesy speaks of the rebuilding of the Temple by Nehemiah?

Also, brother please know that your interpretation fails to understand that the word "weeks/sevens" is not the same as the word "years". One speaks of a period of 7 years the other speaks of one year.

Logic, that is not a parenthesis that is a Divine Plan.

JaySaved,

Why just look at one book? Daniel isn't the only book that refers to these 70 years.

Zechariah, Haggai (indirectly), Jeremiah, and also Nehemiah, Ezra, 2 Chron.

How can you say this prophesy speaks of the rebuilding of the Temple by Nehemiah?

Well, because historically it adds up. When your theory (490 years) don't add up with history. Also, if your theory is correct (490 years) then where is the 103 years that are missing? Because these years HAD to be in movement during Zecheriah's time because he said they were already occuring. (His time is 520-518)

Literally 70 years from 586 B.C.(The time of Jeremiah's prophesy) The temple was restored by Nehemiah and the Jewish people.

You said that it fulfills 'none' of these. Well, I challenge you to think of it the opposite way. It fulfills ALL of them. Ezra chapter 1 talks of the INGATHERING or RESTORATION of the Jews back to their own country. The rest, I'm still looking into.

I will again post the truth about the '70 weeks/years'.

70 years was spoken of by Jeremiah, Daniel, and Zechariah. In that order. The only one to ever refer to these 'years' as 'weeks' was Garbriel. And HELLO, it's an ANGEL! Angels don't die. They look at time differenly than us. One year to us, would be something minimal like a week to them!!

Also, 'the year of the Lord' has been since A.D.29 or so. Thats almost 2000 years. 2000 years = one year? Yes, to the Lord.

Those with longer life-spans look at time differently. Another simple comparision is that, young people hate waiting 20 minutes because its 'forever'. But older people say 20 minutes goes by 'too quick'. It's the perception of the person.

Longer life-span. Quicker 'time' becomes, in your own perception.

Also, brother please know that your interpretation fails to understand that the word "weeks/sevens" is not the same as the word "years". One speaks of a period of 7 years the other speaks of one year.

Please back this up with Scripture.

Why just look at one book? Daniel isn't the only book that refers to these 70 years. Zechariah, Haggai (indirectly), Jeremiah, and also Nehemiah, Ezra, 2 Chron.

Lovegrace, I am not denying that the Bible predicts 70 years of Babylonian captivity. What I am denying is that the 70 weeks prophesy is a prophesy about the Babylonian captivity.

Jaysaved wrote:
How can you say this prophesy speaks of the rebuilding of the Temple by Nehemiah?

Lovegrace wrote:
Well, because historically it adds up. When your theory (490 years) don't add up with history. Also, if your theory is correct (490 years) then where is the 103 years that are missing? Because these years HAD to be in movement during Zecheriah's time because he said they were already occuring. (His time is 520-518)
Literally 70 years from 586 B.C.(The time of Jeremiah's prophesy) The temple was restored by Nehemiah and the Jewish people.

With the decree to rebuild Jerusalem given in Ezra 7:11-28 around 457 B.C., 483 years later (69 sevens) would bring us around 27 B.C. which is the time when Jesus began His ministry and was anointed by the Holy Spirit. So, we see that this prophesy in Daniel refers to the coming of Jesus—the Messiah.

You said that it fulfills 'none' of these. Well, I challenge you to think of it the opposite way. It fulfills ALL of them. Ezra chapter 1 talks of the INGATHERING or RESTORATION of the Jews back to their own country. The rest, I'm still looking into.
I will again post the truth about the '70 weeks/years'.

Explain to me how Nehemiah building the Temple fulfilled any of these:
1. Finish the transgression
2. Make an end of sins
3. Make reconciliation for iniquity
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
5. Seal up vision and prophecy
6. Anoint the most holy.
Also, how does the ingathering and restoration of the Jews fulfill any of the above?

70 years was spoken of by Jeremiah, Daniel, and Zechariah. In that order. The only one to ever refer to these 'years' as 'weeks' was Garbriel. And HELLO, it's an ANGEL! Angels don't die. They look at time differenly than us. One year to us, would be something minimal like a week to them!!

I am sorry, I know you are serious, but this is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Please pray over this interpretation.

Also, 'the year of the Lord' has been since A.D.29 or so. Thats almost 2000 years. 2000 years = one year? Yes, to the Lord.
Those with longer life-spans look at time differently. Another simple comparision is that, young people hate waiting 20 minutes because its 'forever'. But older people say 20 minutes goes by 'too quick'. It's the perception of the person.
Longer life-span. Quicker 'time' becomes, in your own perception.

See last comment.

Jaysaved wrote:
Also, brother please know that your interpretation fails to understand that the word "weeks/sevens" is not the same as the word "years". One speaks of a period of 7 years the other speaks of one year.

Lovegrace wrote:

Please back this up with Scripture.

Let’s take Daniel 9:2, “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.”

Year is Shaneh
Definition
1. year
1. as division of time
2. as measure of time
3. as indication of age
4. a lifetime (of years of life)

Now look at Daniel 9:24, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Weeks or Sevens is Shabuwa`
Definition
1. seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
1. period of seven days, a week
1. Feast of Weeks
2. heptad, seven (of years)

So you see that the word for ‘years’ and the word for ‘weeks’ are different. Weeks does not mean one year just as one year does not mean a week.

JaySaved wrote:
Logic, that is not a parenthesis that is a Divine Plan.

I think that when the Gentiles "comes to fullness" the parenthesis will close and God will turn His attention back to Israel.

Instead of "parenthesis" I like to call it the "
prophetic Stop Watch"

Instead of "parenthesis" I like to call it the "prophetic Stop Watch"

No! Not the stopwatch! :-)

Whether it is a parenthesis or a stopwatch, my problem with it is that it implies "change of plan".

It also implies that no prophesy occurs during the "church age", but that is not true. Jesus prophesied that Peter would live to be an old man. This was prophesy that was fulfilled during the “church age”. Luke 21:18-19, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.”

Also, Jesus speaks of the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. This was fulfilled during the church age.

Paul prophesied in Acts 20:28-30 that false teachers would come into the church after he dies. This was fulfilled during the church age: “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

In Matthew 24:14 Jesus prophesies that the gospel will be preached in all the world and then the end will come, “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

So we see that there is no parenthesis in prophesy and there is no stopping of prophesy during the church age. God’s “prophetic stop watch” is still ticking.

JaySaved wrote:
So we see that there is no parenthesis in prophesy and there is no stopping of prophesy during the church age. God’s “prophetic stop watch” is still ticking.

I have a question then, explain how Daniel 9:27 has passed?

What covenant did he confirm with the many?

Hi,
In Daniel 9.24 the 70wks are for the Jews alone and the holy City is Jerusalem.No mention of anyone else.One view would have a gap between 69 and 70 lasting almost 2000yrs and one would have it run straight through,no stops.The problem with running straight is that you can only get 69 and a half wks Counting Jesus ministry period.That leaves 3 and half yrs or a half a wk to make up which is not mentioned in scripture or clearly marked out which it would have to be to make that any way valid.
Even if that were correct and we took into account Jewish midrash that view of the 70th wk may only be A fulfillment with a future ultimate fulfillment to come in the End.So their is a possibility both views are correct.But I would be interested to see what scripture you qoute for the 3 and a half years after Christs Crucifixtion.

Dan 9:24\t¶\tSeventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Rgds Staff

Hi again everyone.

Lovegrace,

"Why just look at one book? Daniel isn't the only book that refers to these 70 years."

I can understand that. Have found it usefull so often to compare scripture with scripture too.

In this case though, maybe there is something else in view here in this passage of Daniel and it might be helpfull to consider the passage in isolation [b]first[/b]...even apart from some of the other views you may have, and then go through the scripture to see what other portions line up with it, sort of like where Isaiah said...

[i]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little[/i]

Am thinking here maybe start with verse 24, considering some of the things that the angel says are to be brought about in connection with these 70 weeks...

for instance [i]...to make an end of sins[/i]

And then see what would match up in the rest of scripture.

Just some suggestions. In any case I wish you well.

Chris

What covenant did he confirm with the many?

Jeremiah 31:31-32, "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD."

Luke 22:19-21, "And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table."

Hebrews 8:8, "For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,"

Hebrews 8:13, "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Hebrews 9:15, "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant."

Hebrews 12:24, "and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."

Edit:
The covenant was to the Jews for the 70th week. Remember that Jesus ministry was a limited/selective ministry during His time on Earth. For example:
Matthew 10:5-7,
"These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 15:22-24,
"And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus did heal non-Jews, but His ministry was focused on the Jews. During this 70th week, Jesus was "cut off" and then the gospel message was taken to the Gentiles.

What I find so impressive is Jesus' words in Luke 19:41-44, "And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, "Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

Why did Jesus call this "the time of your visitation"? Because Daniel prophesied that Jesus --the promised Messiah--would be there at this time and the Jewish people did not know it...even though Daniel told them.

A few questions for you JaySaved.

1. Why are you sure that the 'Messiah' in Daniel is Jesus? (I say this because the same Hebrew word is used to describe men of God and priests, not just 'The Christ')

2. You say

During this 70th week, Jesus was "cut off" and then the gospel message was taken to the Gentiles.

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

26 [b]"Then after the sixty-two weeks[/b] [u]the Messiah will be cut off[/u] and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, [b]but in the middle of the week[/b] he will [u]put a stop to sacrifice[/u] and [u]grain offering;[/u] and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

So, in the middle of the final week, 'he' (who is he?, might be the prince/messiah/jesus, i don't know) will break the covenant. Not be cut off.

Thank you compliments, that is really encouraging to hear.

lovegrace,

1. Why are you sure that the 'Messiah' in Daniel is Jesus? (I say this because the same Hebrew word is used to describe men of God and priests, not just 'The Christ')

First, because only Jesus--the Messiah--can finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Second, the prophesy points to a future coming of an 'Anointed One' of God called a Prince/Ruler that must come 69 sevens (Sevens being a period of seven years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

Third, the prophesy says that this 'Anointed One' of God called a Prince/Ruler shall confirm a covenant with many at the beginning of the 70th seven/week, but in the middle of the 70th seven/week He shall be “cut off” or killed. I say this because the prophesy says after the 69th seven/week the Messiah will be cut off. After the 69th seven/week must be in the 70th seven/week. When in the 70th seven/week does the death occur? In the middle because that is when the sacrifices are ended. This death will not be for Himself, but will be for others—those whom He has made a covenant with. This death will causing the sacrifice and the oblation to cease to be acceptable in God’s eyes. After this, the people of the Prince that shall come will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.

The best book I ever read on this subject is called " Daniel's Seventy Week Prophecy" by Kevin Connor. Kevin is a Bible teacher out of Australia. This book is available on line at Amazon and in a search it comes up several places. It is well worth the read.

JaySaved wrote:

What covenant did he confirm with the many?

Jeremiah 31:31-32, Luke 22:19-21, Hebrews 8:8, Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 12:24,
Matthew 10:5-7, Matthew 15:22-24, Luke 19:41-44,

lovegrace wrote:

During this 70th week, Jesus was "cut off" and then the gospel message was taken to the Gentiles.

As far as the Scriptures say is that the Messiah (weither Christ or not) will be cut off at the beginning of the 70th and/or end of 69th.

So, in the middle of the final week, 'he' (who is he?, might be the prince/messiah/jesus, i don't know) will break the covenant. Not be cut off.

However in Context, the "he" referes to "prince that shall come", And prince that shall come is not the Messiah eather.

The one who will "confirma acovenant with the many" is not Jesus, but the anti-christ.

Who says it is the Antichrist and what is their justification?

Well said!

Compliments wrote:
God sent His son in the likeness of sinful flesh to confirm the convenant with many in the 70th week.

He did not confirm the Covenant but made a new one.

JaySaved wrote:

The one who will "confirma acovenant with the many" is not Jesus, but the anti-christ.

Who says it is the Antichrist and what is their justification?

Regardless of whether or not the covenant was made and/or confirmed, the point is that Jesus is the person in scripture who makes/confirms the covenant.

It is speculation to say that antichrist makes/confirms a covenant because scripture does not say he does.

You user name is Logic, well let's be very logical in this for a moment, does it make more sense for Daniel to be talking about the Messiah's new covenant that was the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, the Messiah who would fulfill all of the things decreed in the prophesy, or does it make more sense that Daniel is talking about a future secular ruler who will only take up 7 years of history?

Scripture is filled with references to the covenant Jesus would bring. But, there is one verse in scripture that "might" refer to a future secular ruler who makes a peace treaty with Israel.

I am fully convinced by the Scriptures.

Also, let's be honest with each other, the only reason someone even think that the "ruler to come" is the antichrist is because some Dispensational theologian told them. That is how I learned about it, and I rejected it because it was speculation and not based on scripture.

[b][color=006699]Wow! What a lot of confusion to wade through here, with all four of you, LoveGrace, JaysSaved, Logic, & Compliments all partly right, all quoting good scriptures.

I'd like to answer the questions you've all put to each other, even if it means some repetition of topic, for you four have all searched the scriptures, seeking to find what is right.

The difficulty, I believe, results not from any of you being wrong or right, but from not telling the whole tale, as it were, in context, and sequence. By discussing the bits and pieces, I think a great deal of misunderstanding of what you have all been trying to say has crept into the discussion, since not all of you are talking about the same things, even when your texts are the same. So, please, bear with me as I try to make one comprehensive picture of what you have all been saying, for the benefit of those that are reading this thread, and may be wondering what you are all trying to say.

Oddly, all the main parts of prophecy, the Suffering Servant Messiah, (Jesus Christ in human form, but of divine making); the Messiah the Prince, the King in Glory (also Jesus Christ, but in His Glorified Body), and the Anti-Christ,(The Prince to Come) are all in the same prophecy, along with the critical timing issues.[/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]KJV DANIEL 9: 24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699] This covers the entire 70 weeks of years of punishment decreed upon Judah.[/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks,and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699]This covers the first 7 weeks of years of the 70 weeks of years, and pertains to the rebuilding of the temple, and the finishing of the builing of Jerusalem. If you recall, when Jesus said He could destroy the Temple, and rebuild it in 3 days, speaking of Himself, the Pharisees laughed at Him because it took over 40 years to build the actual Temple.[/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:.[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699]After the 62 weeks of years that passed between the completion of the temple,was the day that Jesus Christ died, not for His sins, but for ours.[/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]and the people of the prince that shall come:[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699] If you note, the writers of Daniel were very careful not to capitlize the letter 'p' in 'the prince that shall come': This is critical, for the prince spoken of is the prince of this world, Lucifer. This speaks of the final 7 years of the 70 weeks of years decreed upon the Jews. [/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699]This speaks to when the battle of Armegeddon shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the return of Christ in Glory.[/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]27. And he,[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699] the prince to come, Lucifer,
[/b][/color]
[b][color=993300]shall confirm the covenant with many: [/b][/color]
[b][color=006699] This a treaty between the Anti-Christ, and the current State of Israel.[/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]for one week (of years):[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699] The politician that Lucifer uses comes to power over the entire world, on a peace plan, which is denoted by the First Horseman of the Apocalypse riding a white horse, and carrying only a bow, with no arrows, denoting that he conquers by diplomacy. This politician, with Lucifer controlling what the politician does, will enable him to become leader of the whole world, and he will personally guarantee the peace of Israel for 7 years.[/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699] Midway through the 7 year treaty, Lucifer posseses and indwells the politician he has used, and goes to Israel, sits down in the mercy seat, and declares himself to be God. This is the Abomination of Desolation.[/b][/color]

[b][color=993300]For the next 3 1/2 years, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.[/b][/color]
[b][color=006699] This covers the whole 2nd half of the Great Tribulation, up until the Messiah, Jesus Christ, returns as the Prince of Peace and King in Glory, to reign over the earth for a thousand years. At that time, the judgement of the sheep and goats take place, which decides who dies, and who lives during the Millenium, at the end of which the Great White Throne Judgement is held.

I have simplified the above explanations, not attaching proof quotes, which all of you are very competetant in looking up, mainly to keep the line of events consistant, as it covers about 2500 years, and in a mere four verses pours out the whole future of the world. And since we are nearly at the end of this time sequence, we must be careful to explain all things as clearly as possible.

Blessings,
[/b][/color]

UniqueWebRev,

I love you brother, but your post was nothing more than speculation. There is no scriptural proof for any of the following:
1. The “prince to come” being the devil or the AntiChrist.
2. A treaty between the antichrist and the nation of Israel
3. The Antichrist being a politician that is indwelled by the devil who rules a one world government.
4. This one world leader (Antichrist) allowing Israel to rebuild the temple and have 7 years of peace. (Honestly, how does a leader guarantee peace for just ‘Seven’ years?)
5. That this one world leader (Antichrist) will stop this peace treaty 3 ½ years into it and sit down on the mercy seat declaring himself to be God.
6. The 70 weeks/sevens prophesy lasting 2,500 years.

I heard a very good example. Let’s say that I borrow $100 from you and tell you that in 70 days I will repay you all of the money. What would your reaction be--on the 70th day—if I tell you that there is a “parenthesis” between the 69th and 70th day that will last over 10 years. I tell you that my repayment clock has stopped! I tell you to wait for the 70th day because it has not come yet.

Absurd isn’t it! Brothers and sisters we need to stop believing all of this hype and speculation about the end times. The Left Behind books are fiction and it has done much damage to the church. I pray that God would open everyone’s eyes to the truth of Daniel’s prophesy of the coming Messiah.

Also, maybe Ron Bailey can help us understand why the Prince in one verse is capitalized and it is not in the other, does Hebrew or Aramaic have capital letters?

JaySaved wrote:
Regardless of whether or not the covenant was made and/or confirmed, the point is that Jesus is the person in scripture who makes/confirms the covenant.

JaySaved wrote:
You user name is Logic, well let's be very logical in this for a moment, does it make more sense for Daniel to be talking about the Messiah's new covenant that was the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, the Messiah who would fulfill all of the things decreed in the prophesy, or does it make more sense that Daniel is talking about a future secular ruler who will only take up 7 years of history?

in context with Capters 7 & 8 that is talking about future secular rulers.
For the "7 years of history" is the "Time of Jacobs' [b]Trouble[/b]", not the time of Messiah's new covenant.

[b]Dan. 9:25
Know, then, and understand.[/b] This is a command to "know and understand"
[b]to restore and to build Jerusalem[/b] Ref Neh. 2:1-8. Daniel is told that a decree to restore which had been broken down by Nebuchadnezzar and his army. There is some debate over which decree it was and its exact date. The decree, generally accepted, is that of Artaxerxes, issued approximately 445 B.C. when Jerusalem was to be restored.
[b]unto the Messiah the Prince[/b] or until the Anointed One, or the ruler, which is Jesus
[b]shall be seven weeks[/b] or 49 years,
[b]threescore and two weeks[/b] or sixty-two or 62 x 7 years which is 434 years:
[b]the street shall be built again[/b] which is in Jerusalem
[b]and the wall[/b] which is of Jerusalem shall also be built again Ref. Neh. 2:17-18; 6:15-19,
[b]even in troublous times[/b] or in times of trouble Ref. Neh. 4:-6:14.
This gives a total of 483 years, leaving one week or one period of 7 years left.
The seventy weeks are divided into three parts.
[b](1)[/b] Seven weeks or 49 years. This may also have covered the rebuilding in troublous times.
[b](2)[/b] Sixty-two weeks or 434 years. This covered from the end of the 49 years to, perhaps, the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem before His crucifixion. These weeks are all fulfilled.
[b](3)[/b] One week or 7 years remain. This is the Tribulation, which is still to come as of the writing
of this book.
Thus, 49 years + 434 years gives us a total of 483 years. This leaves one week or one period of 7 years to fulfill the total of 490 years.

[b]Dan. 9:26
And after the sixty-two weeks[/b] which is 434 years (note: the 434 years, plus the 49 years, equals a total of 483 years total),
[b]shall Messiah[/b] which is Jesus Christ or the Anointed One will
[b]be cut off[/b] killed or Isa 53:8 for he was cut off out of the land of the living. Jesus Christ was crucified
[b]but not for himself[/b] He did not die for Himself, Jesus never sinned. He died for those who should trust on Him as their Lord and Savior.
[b]and the people[/b] which are the people of the Roman Empire, the fourth beast, the people
[b]of the prince[/b] or ruler
[b]that shall come[/b] The prince that shall come is referring to the Antichrist that would come in the future. since The Messiah would never destroy the city which is Jerusalem
[b]shall destroy the city[/b] which is Jerusalem
[b]and the sanctuary[/b] or temple
[b]and the end thereof shall be with a flood[/b], which can indicate with great force or mightily,
[b]and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.[/b] 2 Thes. 2:4.

[b]Dan. 9:27
And he[/b] the prince which shall come from the people that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, in approximately 70 A.D.—the Roman Empire,
[b]shall confirm the covenant[/b] to sign or agree to treaty agreement, or peace accord
[b]with many[/b] Israel and others.
[b]for one week:[/b] or one ‘seven,’ or for seven years. The confirming or signing of this covenant might be the beginning of the last remaining seven years, what we call the Tribulation.
[b]and in the midst of the week[/b] or after the thousand two hundred and sixty days or three and one-half years or 42 months from the end of the midst of the 7 year Tribulation. This is showing that there are two parts to the Tribulation, separated by this event or by the seventh seal which we read about the silence in heaven for about ½ hour. The last 42 months of the Tribulation is also called the "Great Tribulation," Gods’ wrath.
[b]he[/b] the prince that shall come and destroy the city and the sanctuary
[b]shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease[/b] which take place in the temple. This shows that the sacrifice and oblation will restart in Jerusalem as in olden times during the first part of the Tribulation. By this and other Scriptures Rev. 11: 1, we also note that a temple will have to be rebuilt in Jerusalem for the sacrifice and oblation during the first part of the Tribulation.
At the approximate time of the midst of the Tribulation. The Antichrist Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[b]and for the extremity of abominations[/b] or because of the least of the abominations being placed in the temple
[b]He[/b] the prince that shall come
[b]shall make it desolate[/b] This is referred to as the "abomination of desolation," in [u]Mt 24:15[/u]. The temple is defiled. Some kind of abomination is set up on a wing of the temple, maybe the image that he sets up. People will be required to worship him or it or be put to death-ref [u]Rev 13:14,15[/u].
b]even until the consummation[/b] The end
[b]and that which is determined shall be poured upon the desolate.[/b] on the Antichrist or the temple that was made desolate is included in "that which is determined.”

Compliments wrote:
What your presenting is a gap theory, and that is all that it is a theory, based upon nothing.

Cirtanly, Acts 2:16-18 & Joel 2:28-29 have come to pass, however Acts 2:19-20 & Joel 2:30-32have not come to pass.

Logic, there may be gaps in other prophesies but this one is unique because it mentions a specific time frame (490 years).

Daniel 70 weeks

Daniel 9:24, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Seventy periods of 7 years (or 490 years) are determined for God’s chosen people to accomplish certain tasks. Those tasks are to:
1. Finish the transgression
Isaiah 53:4-6;8, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all…He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”
Hebrews 9:14-15, “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

2. Make an end of sins
Matthew 1:20-21, “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.”
Romans 4:6-8, “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”

3. Make reconciliation for iniquity
2 Corinthians 5:18-20, “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.”
Hebrews 2:17, “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
Matthew 3:14-15, “But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.”
Romans 1:16-17, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

5. Seal up vision and prophecy
Matthew 5:17, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
Matthew 1:22, “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,”
Matthew 2:5, “And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,”
Matthew 2:15, “And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.”
Matthew 2:17, “Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,”
Matthew 2:23, “And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.”
Matthew 11:13, “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”

6. Anoint the most holy.
Matthew 3:16, “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Mark 14:8, “She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.”
Luke 4:17-18, “And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,”
Acts 10:38, “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

All six of these were fulfilled by Jesus during His earthly ministry. When trying to understand this prophesy, we must not overlook the purpose of the prophesy.

Daniel 9:25, “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”

The 70 weeks/sevens begin on the command to restore and build Jerusalem. There are a few command given in scripture and the one most likely to be the correct starting point is the one given in Ezra 7:11-28 around 457 B.C., 483 years later (69 sevens) would bring us around 27 B.C. which is the time when Jesus began His ministry and was anointed by the Holy Spirit.

Daniel 9:26, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

After the 69th week/seven, the Messiah will be “cut off” or killed. He will not be killed because of something He did, but because of someone else.

I will pause here for a moment because this is where the confusion begins. First, Let us put ourselves in Daniel’s shoes for a moment. Do you think Daniel would have seen a gap between the 69th and 70th week/seven? No. He would not think to place a gap between them, but would naturally to have thought that the 70th week/seven would have followed the 69th week/seven, just like all the previous 69 weeks/sevens followed each one another without gaps.

Daniel 9:27, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Picking up from verse 26, Daniel would have seen the 70th week/seven as happening right after the 69th week/seven. Daniel would have seen that HE shall confirm/make the covenant with many for one week/seven. Now, you might ask: What about the destruction of the city and the sanctuary spoken of in verse 26? Would Daniel have thought it would occur during the 70th week/seven? He would have, but the prophesy doesn’t say it must. The prophesy just says that it will happen after the 69th week/seven. Would Daniel have thought that the Messiah would be “cut off” during the 70th week/seven? He would have and the prophesy tells us that this happened because in the middle of the 70th week/seven the sacrifice and oblation were made to cease. Why do I believe that during the middle of the 70th week/seven refers to the death of Christ?
When Jesus died the ceremonial rituals were put to an end. Hebrews 9:11-14 says, “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

As for the covenant confirmed/made let us remember Jesus’ words at the Lord’s Supper, “In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.” (Luke 22:20)

[b]He[/b] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week is the prince of the people that destroy the city and the sanctuary.
If the the "prince" is of those people, then it would have been the Jews that distroyed the Temple in A.D.70.
In fact it was the Roman army under Titus.

You are making the Scripture say this:
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the Messiah that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The 70th week/seven began when Jesus began His ministry on this earth. As I have said before, it was a limited/selective ministry during His time on Earth. For example:
Matthew 10:5-7, "These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 15:22-24, "And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

What I find so impressive is Jesus' words in Luke 19:41-44, "And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, "Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

Why did Jesus call this "the time of your visitation"? Because Daniel prophesied that Jesus --the promised Messiah--would be there at this time and the Jewish people did not know it...even though Daniel told them.

After Jesus died—in the middle of the 70th week/seven, He told His disciples in Acts 1:4, “And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.” In Acts 1:8 Jesus says, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

In Acts 2 the promised Holy Spirit came to the believers in Jerusalem. These people were described as “And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.” (Acts 2:5). We see this is still to the Jews in Jerusalem. Peter preached a sermon in the temple and many Jews believed. In Acts 5:18-20 we read that the Jewish leaders, “…laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison. But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.” The angel told them to preach in the Temple to the Jews. I point this out because we are still under the 70th week/seven and the gospel is still being preached exclusively to the Jew at this point.
In Acts 6 we are told about a man named Stephen, verses 8-10 say, “And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.”
Then in Acts 7 we notice a change; Stephen delivered a powerful indictment against the Jewish leaders for failing to understand that Jesus is the promised Messiah. In Acts 7:51-53 Stephen says, “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
Now, something strange happens at this point. Remember, these are the same Jewish leaders spoken of in John 18:28-31, “Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man? They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee. Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:”
But these same leaders who knew it was unlawful for them to put a person to death responded to Stephen as follows: “When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:54-59)

It is at this moment that everything changed. Saul (Paul) was converted on the way to Damascus and became the apostle to the Gentiles. The center of Christianity moved from Jerusalem to Antioch. Acts moves from Peter in Jerusalem to Peter in Antioch and the message goes towards the Gentiles. Fulfilling the prophesy in Daniel 9.

How do you justify making the Scripture say this:

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the Messiah that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

You say this if you make the "he" in Dan 9:27 as the Messiah as you, then, make the Jews that distroyed the Temple in A.D.70.

Compliments wrote:
Messiah shall be cut off, then the people of the prince will come to destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Why can't you see two purposes in this verse? One is that of Yeshua Messiah, and the other is the "people of the prince".

Is there anyway that you can elaborate your findings Logic??

I have the answer for you, but I need to know what your saying.

That would mean the Jews destroy the city and the sanctuary v.26 when in fact the romans did.

JaySaved is saying that the "he" in V:27 is the Messiah, if so, then the people of the prince must be the people of the Messiah the Jews.

However, in context, the people of the prince are the people of the Roman because they are the ones who destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

That would make the Prince Titus and the "he" in V:27 would be the Prince of the Romans.

JaySaved, and to anyone else that was involved in this discussion before page four.

I've been trying to check my priorities and where they lie resently and I feel that God is telling me 'to stay in the books'. I have a chance to witness to a few people at my work about evolution and how science really looks at it. Well, I'm completely ignorant on this topic and that's where the 'books' come in.

I'm currently reading two and hopefully going to be listening to numerous hours of preaching/teaching to be well-rounded on this topic before I go stating anything.

In conclusion, I really enjoyed talking about these 70 weeks but God is leading me elsewhere to dedicate my time. I hopefully, in the future, will be coming back to this thread to see what the final conclusion was.

Thanks and God bless.

JaySaved on 2007/4/5 14:39:00
Also, maybe Ron Bailey can help us understand why the Prince in one verse is capitalized and it is not in the other, does Hebrew or Aramaic have capital letters?

The next phrase is actually referring to 'the people of a coming prince'. It also specifies that the 'people of that coming prince' will destroy both the city and the sanctuary. This was accomplished in AD 70 and from that time there has been no 'sanctuary' in Jerusalem.

In English pronouns are usually identified by their proximity to the noun that they represent, so that 'he shall confirm the covenant' would seem, in English, to be referring to the 'prince' of verse 26.

If we slavishly follow the pattern of making the pronoun represent the closest noun we can find some curious statements...“And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.”(2Kings 19:35 KJVS) :-D :-D

To the best of my knowledge, I don't think I ever said that there were not two princes mentioned in the Daniel prophesy. I know that it was the Romans who destroyed the Temple not the Jews. What I am saying is that the HE that makes the covenant is the Messiah, not a future secular one world government ruler.

Thanks Ron for lending your expertise.

Thanks for the discussion lovegrace, always go where God is leading you!

JaySaved wrote:
What I am saying is that the HE that makes the covenant is the Messiah, not a future secular one world government ruler.

How are you getting that the "he" is the Messiah?

If the "he" is the Messiah, then that would make the "prince of the people" the Messiah, and therefore, the Jewes destroy the city and the sanctuary.

BUT, in context, the "He" that "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" is the prince of the people that destroy the city and the sanctuary.

I disagree. See Ron's last response.

Compliments wrote:

Since your not making sense in your reasonings, I thought I do the same thing with mine. I have an answer for you, but you need to be reasonable in your theories.

Therefore, please, give that answer.

Logic, I understand your viewpoint and I respect it. I know why you believe what you believe because I believed that way for most of my life.

What changed my mind is when God revealed to me that all of the 6 things that were decreed to happen in the 70 weeks have already happened and were fulfilled with the first coming of Jesus.

JaySaved wrote:
Logic, I understand your viewpoint and I respect it.

What changed my mind is when God revealed to me that all of the 6 things that were decreed to happen in the 70 weeks have already happened and were fulfilled with the first coming of Jesus.

If I was to try and label my position it would fall somewhere between a Historicist and a Partial Preterist.

Let me get back to you about "Jacob's Trouble".

Concerning Jacob's trouble, the one thing I don't see in Jer. 30 is a 7 year period of tribulation. I see a very bad time, but the time period seems to point more toward the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

Also, Adam Clarke in his commentary says:

"Alas! for that day is great - When the Medes and Persians with all their forces shall come on the Chaldeans, it will be the day of Jacob’s trouble - trial, dismay, and uncertainty; but he shall be delivered out of it - the Chaldean empire shall fall, but the Jews shall be delivered by Cyrus. Jerusalem shall be destroyed by the Romans, but the Israel of God shall be delivered from its ruin. Not one that had embraced Christianity perished in the sackage of that city."

I grew up believing in a Pre-Tribulation rapture, then moved to a Post-Tribulation rapture, then listened to the Church History Studies by Edgar Parkyns (Must hear!) and now I see the truth in scripture without a lot of speculation.

God Bless!