Are we born into sin?

More than likely this topic has already been discussed, but I would extremely appreciate any wisdom on this topic: Are we born into sin or are we born into weakness?

I come from a Baptist background and have been taught that we are born into sin. However, recently my friends have been reading a book ("The God They Never Knew" - George Otis Jr.) that suggests we are born into weakness and then choose to sin against God.

In all honesty, I am confused. I've never viewed this as a questionable truth or doctrine until now and can see strengths and faults in both presented cases...so through much prayer, I come here - what have some of you come to believe and WHY do you stand on that foundation?

-DO
I Pet 4:2

My view is that man is a slave to sin until he is set free to become a slave to righteousness. Man may and will make decisions that he believes are from his "free will", but are bound or enslaved to the desires of his heart as Christ said, "out of the heart proceed adulteries, murders, etc.", and also "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

Man truly had free will once, and chose to give in to Satan's tempting to sin, thus in Adam all have sinned. The fruit of that is death. But the last Adam, Christ has come to give life to the dead!!!!
:-D

Romans 5:12 is the clearest indication that we are born into more than just weakness.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

Adam was created in a state of innocence. We know this because of Genesis 2:25, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." In Genesis 2:16-17 we read, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree, this was sinful because it was disobedience. Genesis 3:6-7 says, "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths."

Notice that their "eyes were opened and they knew they were naked". God had told them that they would die and they did die that moment. It was not a physical death but it was a spiritual death. It was at that moment that they went from a state of spiritual innocence to a state of spiritual death.

What was God's response? God killed an animal (First time anything had ever died) and used the skin to cover their shame. Genesis 3:21, "And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them."

The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree, his nature changed and also the nature of all who would be born from him.
Back to Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

We are born with more than weakness, we are born with a sinful nature. The fact that every single person born from Adam has sinned proves that it is impossible to refrain from sin. If it was a mere weakness, then someone would have been able to live without sin.

Praise be to the Lord Jesus, who was born of a woman but the Son of God who redeemed us from our sin. Genesis 3 is a shadow of what Christ would do in that He was sacrificed to cover our shame.

This verse verifies that we were born into sin:

Psalms 51:5 (NAS)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

we are born into weakness and then choose to sin against God

This is a dangerous theology, and here is why: Many people view victory over sin as God giving us power. We choose to sin against God because we are weak. Then, Jesus saves us and gives us the power to conquer sin. This is not only a false doctrine, it denies completely the true theology of Christ. God doesn't give us power, God is the power. There is a difference that many mistake.

In Luke 18:19 (NAS), it says, " And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.' Obviously, Jesus was trying to call the person unto belief. Would this person believe that Jesus was indeed God who is good?

However, in addition to this, we also see a truth we need to take to heart. The truth is this: "Only God is good." This means that humanity is not good. No where in the bible does it ever say humanity is good. We are not good. Paul confirms this by establishing that we are all sinners. Job also confirms this by saying:

Job 15:14 (NAS)
"What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?"

We are not God. We cannot be righteous. No matter how hard we try or no matter how many good works we perform, we cannot be good. In essence, what this means is that no matter how hard we try, we cannot be good (God). We are not God and we cannot be God. However, Jesus is God and He can be God.

When Christ saves us, He gives us victory over sin by becoming our righteousness. He doesn't give us the power to have victory, He is the power over sin. This is extremely important to understand or else a person will be lead astray. We will think we have power when we have none.

Instead, Jesus clearly established that He is the one and only son of God, the only one who can please the Father, and the only one who can be good. This means that if we are to be righteous or good, the source of our being, the source of all we do, must come from Jesus Christ. In John 15:1-5, Jesus speaks concerning this. He says, "Apart from me you can do nothing." This doesn't mean we can't act apart from Jesus. Surely, we can sin. However, what this means is that nothing we do has any value or worth unless it is sourced from Jesus. He is the vine, we are the branches. We must remain in Him. When Jesus is the source of our actions, then our actions are good. However, when something other than Jesus is the source of actions (or doings), we have sinned. We have done nothing.

When a person is born, a person is born in a state of separation from God. If we are separated from Jesus, then can we produce good fruit? Can we be righteous? No, we cannot. Instead, we are born into sin. From our conception, we are sinful. We do not know God. Everlasting life means that we know God. (John 17:3) To know God is to be united as one with Him. (John 14:20)

This is significantly different. What this means is that by no power of our own can we become righteous or made clean. By no power or ability of our own can we know God. We must petition Jesus Christ for salvation, and ask Him to save us. We must place our faith in Him that He will do what we cannot. He must be the one working in us to make us righteous and give us victory over sin. When it is Christ working in us, then we are truly saved because our salvation and faith is dependent upon Him and nothing of our own. It is a work of God and not a work of man.

Philippians 1:6 (NAS)
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I hope this helps,

In love,
Blake

PS....I wanted to post Psalms 51:1-13 as it is a beautiful verse. King David who was filled with the Holy Spirit cried this out to God.

PSALMS 51:1-13 (NAS)

Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness, Let the bones which You have broken rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit. {Then} I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You.

roaringlamb wrote:
My view is that man is a slave to sin until he is set free to become a slave to righteousness. Man may and will make decisions that he believes are from his "free will", but are bound or enslaved to the desires of his heart as Christ said, "out of the heart proceed adulteries, murders, etc.", and also "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

roaringlamb wrote:
Man truly had free will once, and chose to give in to Satan's tempting to sin, thus in Adam all have sinned. The fruit of that is death. But the last Adam, Christ has come to give life to the dead!!!!

JaySaved wrote:
Romans 5:12 is the clearest indication that we are born into more than just weakness.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

Don't make it say that all sinned in Adam.

JaySaved wrote:
The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree, his nature changed and also the nature of all who would be born from him.

Never the less, that kind of nature can not be inherited or passed down from generation to generation because no one is guilty for another mans sin. In return, one can not be born with the judgment of anothers sin, even Adam's.

JaySaved wrote:
We are born with more than weakness, we are born with a sinful nature.

JaySaved wrote:
The fact that every single person born from Adam has sinned proves that it is impossible to refrain from sin. If it was a mere weakness, then someone would have been able to live without sin.

Furthermore, how could someone be able to live without sin if in weakness?
God created man in weakness so that man would relye on HIM.
[b]Ecc 7:29[/b] [color=990000]Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.[/color]
God does not create babies sinful, but only ignorant(weak).

This may answer your question. It is the answer the Lord gave me and is the second chapter in a book I wrote. Sorry about the length. It is actually one of the shorter of 26 chapters. Let me know if this sheds any light for you.

"HOW IT ALL BEGAN – MAN’S CHOICE

Flesh and, therefore, the need for Jesus’ death had their origin in the Garden of Eden.

The story of Adam and Eve is quite familiar to the majority of folks, but what we must understand is WHY God created man. Because He desires to be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth, God made man with the capability for worship.

The Bible says man was created in the image of God; 1 formed from the dust of the earth, and made alive by the breath of God. 2 The form was lifeless, until God breathed life (spirit) into him. Because man was made from dust, he will return to dust after he dies. David said, “You take away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.” (Psalm 104:29b Amplified)

According to the Hebrew dictionary, “image” means “phantom.” Or one could say, “spirit,” 3 which would mean that man was a spiritual being. Although he was flesh and blood, he was capable of communicating with his Creator. There was no consciousness of man’s humanity because, as the Word says, Adam and Eve were naked (nude) and “were not ashamed.” 4 There was nothing to separate man from his Creator. They could walk and talk in pure communion, Spirit to spirit.

Just think what it must have been like in the Garden of Eden, when God communed with man, His creation. The peace and serenity must have been beyond anything our finite minds can comprehend. There would be no such thing as the hustle and bustle we have now in this twenty-first century. The fragrant flowers, the fresh green foliage, the carpet-like grass, and the exhilarating, oxygen-rich air must have been beyond description! Imagine the beautiful birds of every kind, in chorus with their unique sounds. It must have sounded like a symphony! Can you picture a beautiful, stately doe grazing in the woods, as she listens to the music of the birds? And imagine the spotless, woolly sheep wandering in the meadows, without fear of danger. Everything in the Garden was perfect.

Two trees

Of all the trees in the Garden of Eden, the two mentioned are the Tree of Life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 5 Why these two trees in particular? What is the significance? I believe we can see them as opposites, with the fruit of one giving Life and the fruit of the other resulting in death.

As is commonly known, God told man if he were to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would “surely die.” 6 God gave them the choice of life or death, and they chose death, because the serpent tricked Eve. That old serpent, the Devil, told her they would not die, but would “be as God, knowing good and evil.” 7 They ate the fruit and, just as the serpent had said, their eyes were opened. But what did they see? They did not see they were nude, as before, and “were not ashamed.” This time they saw they were “cunning,” as the Hebrew word for this “nakedness” shows. 8 Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh, with self-awareness due to the knowledge of good and evil. And the man and woman tried to hide their nakedness with fig leaves. 9 God knew they had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and He found them attempting to hide their flesh.

The LORD God clothed Adam and Eve with coats of skins. 10 But in putting to death the animals from which the skins were taken, there had to be bloodshed. Remember, the meaning of “blood” is “that which when shed causes death.” 11 Now we see how Jesus would one day shed His blood to provide a robe of righteousness for man. Even before the foundation of the world, God knew man would make the wrong choice.

With man’s new-found knowledge came the awareness that he could be his own god. And now being like God, knowing good and evil, the LORD God had to put him out of the Garden of Eden “lest he put forth his hand, and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.” 12

Had man taken and eaten of the Tree of Life in his fallen condition, and lived eternally, God would have lost forever His creation who was made to worship Him. Man’s condition of flesh now separated him from his Creator, but God’s redemptive plan begins to unfold! He would one day reconcile man to Himself as we see in Romans 8:3-4: 'God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'

Was it Adam’s act of disobedience that made all mankind sinful? Or was it the result of his disobedience? If simple disobedience was the problem, the tree with the forbidden fruit could have been a cherry tree or a fig tree. But no, it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit of the tree caused the problem: not merely the eating of it. Yes, man ate the fruit in disobedience, but the fruit itself provided the source of trouble for all mankind from that moment on. Man’s heredity was now to be born a mere man of flesh, both literally as well as figuratively. That is the reason Jesus said to Nicodemus, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.' (John 3:6-7)

Another word for flesh is “self,” and when man’s eyes were opened he discovered his self-awareness, with its accompanying self-sufficiency. Rather than rely on God, man now relied on his knowledge of good and evil.

Mortality

This new knowledge became the guiding force in man’s life, and his condition changed to one of mortality – subject to death. As Paul said in Romans 5:14, 'Death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.' Death reigned because man was flesh, and flesh ultimately will die.

The word “adam” means “man.” 13 However, “man” is also translated from a second Hebrew word meaning “mortal,” 14 and is derived from another word that means “to be frail, feeble.” 15 A whole book could be written to show the difference in the uses of “man [adam, mankind]” and “man [mortal]” throughout the Old Testament. But for now, I shall quote only the first verse where “man [mortal]” occurs. 'And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos [mortal] 16: then began men [mortals] to call upon the name of the LORD.' (Genesis 4:26) In acknowledgement of man’s fallen condition, Seth named his son “Mortal.”

A flesh heredity

Adam did not pass on to man the sin heredity because he sinned. He passed on a
flesh heredity that came with the knowledge of good and evil. All that which flesh produces is sin, whether it is good or evil. This can be seen in Leviticus 5:4 (Amplified): 'Or if anyone unthinkingly swears he will do something, whether to do evil or good, whatever it may be that a man shall pronounce rashly taking an oath, then, when he becomes aware of it, he shall be guilty in either of these.' This verse in the Law reveals to us that man was guilty of sin whether he chose “to do evil or good.” The determination “to do” was the problem.

Satan had “fathered” flesh when he planted in man the seed of a thought, “to be as God, knowing good and evil.” 17 The devil knew that with the knowledge of good and evil, man would be in his domain. His own original sin was exaltation of self, which caused him to be thrust down from the position he once held. He wanted to be God, 18 but he became only the god of this world and the realm of flesh. In the end, the God of all gods will triumph over ALL flesh!

The serpent had deceived man into exalting himself through the knowledge of good and evil, which was his God-likeness. But God chose to humble Himself and come in the “likeness of sinful flesh,” to put to death the flesh that had come between man and Himself. In crucifying flesh then being buried and raised to life by the Spirit, Jesus made a way for man to receive the knowledge of the Truth. God’s response to man’s God-likeness was for Himself to come in the form of man-likeness.

Only God Almighty, Creator of all things, can Father the new creature by planting His own Seed, His Spirit, in all who will come to the end of self and receive His Son Who is LIFE. God was not known as “Father” until Jesus came, and He is Father only to those born again – or “born from above,” which is the true meaning of the Greek word. Only the truly born-again believer can be called a “new creature in Christ Jesus.”

If sin were a deed, this verse would make no sense: 'Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.' (2 Corinthians 5:21) Paul was referring to the fact that Jesus was made flesh so that He could destroy the heredity of flesh, thus making a way for man to become the righteousness of God in Christ.

Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)

Man did not merely have a sin nature; the sin nature was the manifestation of what he had become – a creature of flesh. Man’s fleshly heredity is the root of his sin nature. Deeds spring from heredity. Therefore man’s heredity must be altered, and only God can alter heredity through the new birth.

I grew up believing that just because Adam sinned, it would make sinners of all those born after him. I thought, “How can that be? It has to be more profound!” The Lord showed me that it is indeed much more profound. That which transpired because of Adam’s deed produced the root of all trouble. This root, deep within the heart and soul of mankind, brought such depravity that Jesus had to die in order for the root to be removed.

We must not trivialize the Cross of Jesus Christ. He came because of man’s heredity of flesh, and the death which most certainly results. After all, our flesh is mortal, which means “that must eventually die.” 19 When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He made very clear the difference between flesh and spirit, saying, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:6)

In the whitewashing of the truth, we have overlooked the absolute need to be born again, not merely forgiven. If a mere deed was the problem with Adam eating the fruit of a wrong tree, God could simply have forgiven him, and all of Adam and Eve’s offspring would have had to avoid eating that same fruit in order to obey God’s command. His command also included the fact that man would die if he ate the fruit – not that the fruit would kill him or that God would kill him, but that the knowledge of good and evil would reduce man to a creature of mortal flesh. And from that point on, all offspring would be born in this man-likeness.

1.\tGenesis 1:27
2.\tGenesis 2:7
3.\tHebrew #6754
4.\tGenesis 2:25
5.\tGenesis 2:9
6.\tGenesis 2:17
7.\tGenesis 3:5
8.\tHebrew #5903 from #6191
9.\tGenesis 3:7
10.\tGenesis 3:21
11.\tHebrew #1818
12.\tGenesis 3:22-23
13.\tHebrew #120
14.\tHebrew #582
15.\tHebrew #605
16.\tHebrew #583
17.\tGenesis 3:4-5
18.\tIsaiah 14:12-15

In Jesus because of Calvary,

However, God killed an animal, why?
to repair the relationship so that he be not spiritualy dead anymore. Therefore his nature was changed back to as before.

This is not scriptural. The sacrifice of animals cannot change a person's nature. Only by the blood of Christ can a person be regenerated.

The sacrifice of an animal was a symbol and a type, it points to Christ but does not accomplish the same thing. Hebrews 9 makes this clear.

Never the less, that kind of nature can not be inherited or passed down from generation to generation because no one is guilty for another mans sin.

I am not saying that we are judged by Adam's sin, but that Adam's sin caused us to be born into sin. This is the reason why all sin.

Many people view victory over sin as God giving us power. We choose to sin against God because we are weak. Then, Jesus saves us and gives us the power to conquer sin. This is not only a false doctrine, it denies completely the true theology of Christ. God doesn't give us power, God is the power. There is a difference that many mistake.

This is a very good point and it reminded me of something that Watchman Nee wrote in his book [i]The Normal Christian Life[/i]...
For God’s way of deliverance is altogether different from man’s way. Man’s way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God’s way is to remove the sinner. Many Christians mourn over their weakness, thinking that if only they were stronger all would be well. The idea that, because failure to lead a holy life is due to our impotence, something more is therefore demanded of us, leads naturally to this false conception of the way of deliverance. If we are preoccupied with the power of sin and with our inability to meet it, then we naturally conclude that to gain the victory over sin we must have more power. ‘If only I were stronger’, we say, ‘I could overcome my violent outbursts of temper’, and so we plead with the Lord to strengthen us that we may exercise more self-control.

But this is altogether wrong; this is not Christianity. God’s means of delivering us from sin is not by making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. That is surely rather a peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the Divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything but by removing him from the scene of action.
In Christ,

Ron

JaySaved wrote:

However, God killed an animal, why?
to repair the relationship so that he be not spiritualy dead anymore. Therefore his nature was changed back to as before.

JaySaved wrote:
I am not saying that we are judged by Adam's sin, but that Adam's sin caused us to be born into sin. This is the reason why all sin.

[b]Romans 8:6 [color=990000] the mind-set of the flesh is death,[/b] but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace.[/color]
The mind of the fleash is not sin.

We did not inherit Adam's sin or sin nature, but his death:
[b]Romans 8:20[/b] [color=990000]For the creature was made subject to vanity[/color](temporaryness) and [b]Romans 8:21[/b] [color=990000]the bondage of corruption[/color]
This is talking about the death that God cursed Adam with. [color=990000]and so death passed upon all men,[/color][b][b]Romans 5:12[/b]

Dear Logic,

If sin can change the nature of Adam, then it follows that the sacrifice of animals which atone for sin, can change back the nature.

What did Jesus mean in John 3:5 where He said that a person must be born again?

What JaySaved is trying to establish is that when God created humanity, He had a specific purpose. When Adam sinned, not only did Adam defy that purpose, he also became a creature entirely different than what God had purposed. Adam changed. That is why God asked, "Where are you?" God surely knew where Adam was. The point of this is to establish that God no longer recognized the creature He had created. Adam had changed.

This means that everyone who was born from Adam bore this same problem. Sin is like a disease that infested the human race. Jesus was the only person born without the disease.

God gave us the law to prove that we had this disease. Part of the disease is to think that we don't have it. We think, "I am not sinful." However, the law showed us our sin. When we see our sin, then we are faced with a choice. Do we repent or not? Do we seek to be saved, or die in our sins?

This truth is significant. This means that when we are born, we all are born in a state of separation from God. We are absent and void of God. This is essential for understanding the need to be born again. It is not enough to simply have our sins forgiven. We need to experience a complete change of being. We need to be experience a new birth that changes us spiritually, and later physically as well.

When we say that a person is born into sin, it literally means that we are born into this state of separation where it is impossible for a person to please God. No amount of good works or actions could change the person, neither could a sacrifice of animals. It takes the power of God to change us.

This is a most essential doctrine that must be understood. It is not by our power that we are saved or made new. It is not simply by forgiveness either. We need to experience a death and resurrection. Only when we have experienced this transformation do we come under the rule of Christ. Only then are we one of His people. Only then do we "know" God as Jesus proclaimed in John 17:3.

This is also essential in understanding John 15:1-5. Only Jesus is pleasing to the Father. Only Jesus can produce good fruit. Thus, if any person is going to produce good fruit, Jesus must be the source. He is the vine, and we are the branches. Only when this is true, when we remain in Him, can we produce good fruit.

I pray that you might understand this truth. Many people are held in bondage because they do not know Christ as the source of their being.

I say this in love and will not say anything more. I do not like to debate.

Blake

Well put Blake.

Romans 5 tells us that we were born "in" Adam, and as a result of such, inherited his spiritual death. And as a result of Adam's sin, condemnation resulted to all men. However, because of Christ's obedience, righteousness and spiritual life has now been inherited for those who are now "in" Christ.

If one were to deny the doctrine of original sin as set forth in this passage, then one must also deny the effective work of Christ to make us righteous and give us Divine life in this same passage. For Paul argues that death is for those who are in Adam, but life is for those who are in Christ. And as one is born into the first man, so one must be born into the second Man.

And this is where Charles Finney's theology falls apart.

Brother Blake wrote:

I pray that you might understand this truth. Many people are held in bondage because they do not know Christ as the source of their being.

Why do you suppose they remain in bondage?

In Christ
Jeff

Sister Stela wrote:

According to the Hebrew dictionary, “image” means “phantom.” Or one could say, “spirit,” 3 which would mean that man was a spiritual being. Although he was flesh and blood, he was capable of communicating with his Creator. There was no consciousness of man’s humanity because, as the Word says, Adam and Eve were naked (nude) and “were not ashamed.” 4 There was nothing to separate man from his Creator. They could walk and talk in pure communion, Spirit to spirit.

If simple disobedience was the problem, the tree with the forbidden fruit could have been a cherry tree or a fig tree. But no, it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit of the tree caused the problem: not merely the eating of it. Yes, man ate the fruit in disobedience, but the fruit itself provided the source of trouble for all mankind from that moment on. Man’s heredity was now to be born a mere man of flesh, both literally as well as figuratively.

God is birthing a good work through you sis....

Thank you for sharing

In Christ
Jeff

So if/since we're born in to sin, this would mean that we are born separated from God. If/Since this is the case, what happens to newborns and babies when they die?

The other theory is that we are born into a sin weakness and then choose to rebel against God.

Here is a link to one of the articles by Otis Jr.: http://www.sam-xa.com/leaders/1-Essentials/07-Sin_Holiness/2-Sin%20reading%20material.doc (it is opened with Microsoft Word or another word processer)

It should be noted that while we are born in a fallen sinful state, though we are born with a naturally rebellious nature, no actual guilt is charged to our account until we are old enough to know right from wrong. Thus, children go to heaven.

KingJimmy wrote:
]Romans 5 tells us that we were born "in" Adam, and as a result of such, inherited his spiritual death.

And as a result of Adam's sin, condemnation resulted to all men. However, because of Christ's obedience, righteousness and spiritual life has now been inherited for those who are now "in" Christ.

[b]Romans 5:19[/b] [color=990000]For as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners[/color],[in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be made righteous.[/color]],[in like manner of obedience]

It must be this way because if you don't think of it this way, than the only other way to read it is:
We are made sinners involantary through the one man's disobedience, so also many shall be made righteous involantarily through the obedience of the One.

Therefore, one is not a sinner until the first accountable sin.
Inturn, no "sin sature" or "original sin" to be called a sinner.

KingJimmy wrote:
If one were to deny the doctrine of original sin as set forth in this passage, then one must also deny the effective work of Christ to make us righteous and give us Divine life in this same passage.

KingJimmy wrote:
And as one is born into the first man, so one must be born into the second Man.

[b]1Corinth 15:50[/b]

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Jeff wrote:

Quote;
"Why do you suppose they remain in bondage?"

The won't hear the truth of Christ being born again in them to set them free.

Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:2-6 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Free in Christ: Phillip

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Another point: With out the law, there is no sin, for sin is the transgressing the law.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

When was this point where Paul was without the law???
Like somebody already mentioned, very young children have no concept of good and evil. The commandment has not yet come to them. Therefore there is no sin, because sin is the transgession of the law. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The commandment has not come, sin is dead without the commandment = no sin = babies are sinless, pure, and innocent.

:-)

and just in case someone was thinking it... NO, babies do not go to hell!!!
But, if they were sinners, God would have to send them to hell. If there is knowledge of the evil, there is knowledge of the good, and therefore the knowledge to know to do better = they have the law. but i don't find this to match up with scripture.

if you feel that i have in any way twisted scripture, taken it out of context, or leaned on my own understanding in the interpretation, please comment back and let me know where i'm wrong. I desire truth, and this is truth as i know him.

least of all,
~victor

Why do you suppose they remain in bondage?

Because they do not understand the true nature of what it means to believe in Jesus.

In love,
Blake

what happens to newborns and babies when they die?

There are so many questions along these lines. We might also ask about gentiles who lived before Christ, what of those? What about people who have never heard?

Jesus Christ is the judge over all. I trust that He will judge rightly. The only person's salvation that I am assured is my own.

In Christ,
Blake

The other theory is that we are born into a sin weakness and then choose to rebel against God.

Here is a link to one of the articles by Otis Jr.:

I am sorry, but I disagree with this article. This man wants to keep people in bondage to the law. He completely missing the entire point of salvation and the work of God.

A great many people misunderstand sin, and this is a large problem facing Christianity today. I do not have the time tonight to explain sin tonight, however, I think a post on sin is appropriate. So, when I have more time to write, I will do so.

You must keep in mind that Jesus said in John 3:7 "You must be born again." Why would we need to undergo such a dramatic change if we are merely weak? To be born again means that we die and are born again. It means we become a totally new creation. If we are just weak and unruly, then all we would need is a little encouragement and some discipline. But why do we need to experience a complete transformation? Why do we need to be recreated?

Some things to think about.

In Christ,
Blake

We did'nt inherit his spiritual death.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sin (the nature) produced sins (the individual acts that God's law condemns). The spiritual death in man produced a physical death. Sin (the nature) existed before individual sins were charged through the law. For until the Law, sin (the nature) was still active in man.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

How is it that denying the doctrine of original sin is also denying the effective work of Christ?

Paul argues that Adam's "act" brought about the fall of all who are in Adam. He then argues that Christ's "act" brought about the justification of all who are in Christ. To Paul, you are either in Adam or Christ. And he sees all who are born into this world as being in Adam. Thus, there is the need for all who are born into this world to be born again.

Therefore, when we read this passage, if we deny the doctrine of original sin which Paul argues we receive from Adam's act, then we must deny the doctrine of justification that we receive from Christ's act. For Paul argues we receive sin and death from Adam act, but grace and life from Christ act. If this were not the case, then there is no need to bring up Adam at all.

KingJimmy wrote:
Sin (the nature) produced sins (the individual acts that God's law condemns). The spiritual death in man produced a physical death. Sin (the nature) existed before individual sins were charged through the law. For until the Law, sin (the nature) was still active in man.

Sin is not a nature, sin is an act or error.
Knoweing to do good, and not doing it is sin.
Sin is the transgression of the law.
All unrighteousness is sin:

The word sin as an abstract expression of wrong or evil.

[b]Romans 5:12[/b] [color=990000]Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, so also death passed to all men, upon all who sinned[/color]
It is the death that passed to man, not the "sin nature"

[b]Romans 5:18[/b] [color=990000]So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation[/color][of death to all men] [color=990000] to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification [b]of life to all men[/b].[/color]
[b]Romans 5:19[/b] [color=990000]For as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners[/color],[in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be made righteous.[/color]],[in like manner of obedience]

KingJimmy wrote:
Paul argues that Adam's "act" brought about the fall of all who are in Adam.

KingJimmy wrote:
For Paul argues we receive sin and death from Adam act, but grace and life from Christ act. If this were not the case, then there is no need to bring up Adam at all.

The reson to bring adam is that just as Adam disobeyed and became a sinner, so it is that as we disobey, we becom sinners.
So it is with Christ and His obediance of His cross, so it is that as we obey by taking up our cross.
Furthermore in 1Corinth shows the difrence of Adam and Christ, but in that chapter mentions nothing about sinfulness eccept the sting of death being sin.

I posted a reply but erased it because this is just one of those topics where there is so much scripture that seems to support either side. Good Luck!

Jeff wrote:

Quote; "So it is with Christ and His obediance of His cross, so it is that as we obey by taking up our cross".

Which is truly His Cross, if we had a cross it would make no difference what we did with it. Taking up our Cross and following Him. Since He could not carry His own Cross, neither can we, He, Jesus Christ must carry it for us, then we can follow Him.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

Our model, He must carry our Cross.

It is no longer I who live, but the incarnate Christ who lives in me. "Christ liveth in me"

In Christ: Phillip

Children are born into a world of sin, their mothers and fathers sin but they are with out sin. They rely on love.

Quote totallyHis wrote

Another word for flesh is “self,” and when
man’s eyes were opened he discovered his
self-awareness, with its accompanying
self-sufficiency. Rather than rely on God, man
now relied on his knowledge of good and evil.

Well said Stella, the doctrine of our Lord, Christ Jesus, Love, Love, Love, Love.

New Heart + Love = Born Again

Eddie

Sin is not a nature, sin is an act or error.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts

Romans 6:16 ... you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Here sin is not just represented as mere acts of disobedience, it is represented as a nature. And we as believers can either present ourselves as slaves to our flesh's sinful nature, or we can present ourselves as slaves to God, as one's alive from the dead. Our old carnal "body of sin" has been crucified with Him, so that we could be freed from the chains of our old sin nature. Thus, we as believers are no longer bound to sin as a sinner is. For sinners do what they are: they sin.

And Paul tells us plainly: don't obey sin. If sin is not a nature, it cannot be obeyed.

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest...

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Sin (the nature) produced sins (the individual acts that God's law condemns). The spiritual death in man produced a physical death. Sin (the nature) existed before individual sins were charged through the law. For until the Law, sin (the nature) was still active in man.

Pure conjecture.

And this is not pure conjecture. Paul says quite clearly, sin reigned in mankind even before the law came and enumerated a list of sins. But, nevertheless man's sinful nature reigned. Between Adam and Moses, sin still existed. And we know this because death still reigned.

Romans 6:16 ... you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness

We either serve Satan or God. Slaves to whom, the old man Satan or the new Man Christ. That is why Satan nature must die and Christ Nature must live. Born Again? Crucified with Christ?
If Adam chose Satan in whom he would believe a lie, Adam chose his nature. If we believe in Christ, whom ever believes has chosen a new Nature, and Christ is now our life in whom we serve. Without Christ all die unto death eternal. With Christ all die unto life eternal. Either, death life in Satan or Christ life unto eternal life in Christ. Satan life or God Life. "Choose this day whom you will serve", unto new birth in Christ or death life in Satan.

Paul says it clearly 146 times "in Christ", our life and new nature. Romans 6:16 ... you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness.

This is what leads up to whom we will serve:

Romans 6:1-14 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Christ in you 2, and In Christ: Phillip

If we are born sinners how can we possibly repent?

We are born sinners and must be reborn as saints.

Your references to things such as eye color and what not are just silly. For eye color has nothing to do with the inborn fleshly desire to rebel against God. And this is why man must be born again, and is in need of a new heart. And this is why the prophets spoke time and time again of how man needed to have a circumcised heart, to have their polluted garments washed, and to be given a new spirit. For only when the heart was changed could the outward actions be changed.

For a bad tree produces bad fruit and a good tree produces good fruit. So either make the tree good and therefore its fruit good, or make the tree bad and therefore its fruit bad.

How can I repent of sin, if I have no choice about it?

And it's exactly because one is "born that way" that one must be born again. Because one is born a sinner and loves to sin, it is imperative that one confesses and forsakes. Being born a sinner does not excuse one to freely sin, nor does it excuse one from the guilt of that sin.

You can only repent of your sin through the empowerment of God's word, that generates faith in an individual, that allows them to respond freely to the gift of God for salvation (Romans 10). Apart from the power of God's word that allows you to become a child of God, you are without the ability.

If we are born sinners how can we possibly repent?

Exactly. We cannot. To repent means that we turn 180 degrees from our sin. We cannot do this. And so, we need Jesus to save us. We need to be baptized (cleansed by the Holy Spirit). Jesus preached, "Repent and be baptized." First, we need a desire to turn from sin. Then, we goto Jesus for salvation who then baptized us into His death and resurrection.

We do not choose sin. We choose Jesus. If we have sin in our life, the question is: will you choose Jesus to save you? Or will you try to save yourself? Will Jesus be your God, or will you try to be your own God?

If I was born a sinner then how can God hold me personally responsible for sin?

Do you not see? That is why there is only one way to Hell. Either you believe in Jesus or you don't. It's that simple. You are held responsible for either accepting Jesus as Savior or not. That is all.

God doesn't hold you personally responsible for sin as you are thinking of it. He holds you personally responsible for believing in His Son or not. If you sincerely believe in Jesus, then Jesus will enter into you and deliver you from sin. You will be sinless. However, if you have any amount of sin in your life, this demonstrates a lack of faith in Jesus. You must place all your faith in Jesus that He is able to deliver you from sin right now.

You are convicted for sin because it shows that you are not obeying God's Word that says, "This is my son, listen to Him." Instead, you attempt to conquer sin without Jesus and this is displeasing to God.

I hope this helps,

In love,
Blake

Brother Blake wrote:

Because they do not understand the true nature of what it means to believe in Jesus.

So then by what you have stated,is God at fault?

In Christ
Jeff

We are either of our father the devil or we are of our Father God, by the work of Christ in us.
We cannot repent unto salvation, that takes God's revelation of Jesus Christ to the believer, then repentance and baptism in water to show what has already been done by God on the inside and the new birthing takes its path and Jesus Christ is the strength and power of that birth. The Holy Spirit is now in the believer, this is the convicting portion of our salvation and the teaching us of who we are in Christ. We are now free and able to repent and to do what God intended us to do before the foundation of the world was ever begun.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Who is our yoke of bondage? It is our old father Satan. The old man is under his control and bondage. The new man, birthed by God the Father by the Christ that is in us is, "The liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free".

Free from what? Free from our old husband, who was Satan.

Romans 7:2-3 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Our old husband is dead and we are dead to him and sin. We are married to another Man, that is Christ Jesus, in whom we are His Bride, already married to Him, waiting for the great marriage supper of the Lamb.

Romans 8:1-3 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Dead to sin and Satan, alive unto God and in Christ, birthed anew unto a new creature. We are Christ ones, son's of God by the only begotten birthed in us, in the power of the Spirit of Christ and God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Total son's.

This is the old; Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This is the new: Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Not only with but in: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

No longer does Satan dwell in us but the Spirit of Christ who has made us children of God, son's.

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

The won't hear the truth of Christ being born again in them to set them free.

Is God not able to teach them the truth?

In Christ
Jeff

rowdy2 wrote:
Children are born into a world of sin, their mothers and fathers sin but they are with out sin. They rely on love.

totallyHis wrote:
Another word for flesh is “self,”

the Greek word for self is where psycology gets the word "eego" as in "some onr hurt your eego" or "That really bruised my ego"

KingJimmy wrote:

Sin is not a nature, sin is an act or error.

Romans 6:6, Romans 6:12, Romans 6:16 ...
Here sin is not just represented as mere acts of disobedience, it is represented as a nature. And we as believers can either present ourselves as slaves to our flesh's sinful nature, or we can present ourselves as slaves to God, as one's alive from the dead. Our old carnal "body of sin" has been crucified with Him, so that we could be freed from the chains of our old sin nature. Thus, we as believers are no longer bound to sin as a sinner is. For sinners do what they are: they sin.

[b]Romans 6:6[/b] [color=990000]knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of offence might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.[/color]
No where does it say that we crucify our nature, but we are to crucify our flesh.
[b]Galtians 5:24[/b] [color=990000]But the ones belonging to Christ crucified [b]the flesh[/b] with its passions and lusts.[/color]

If sin here is our nature, then verse :7 says that we have been justified from our very own nature, if it is our nature, how could God condenm us for being who we are?
God only condenms us for acts of sin.

Furthermore, all verse :6 says is that it is the "[b]body[/b]" that is offencive, and to serve "sin" would be the abstract term for all the offences that the flesh commits.

[b]Romans 6:12[/b] [color=990000]Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.[/color]
All this is saying, is do not let wrong desires rule you so that you won't obey your flesh's wrongful passions.

[b]Romans 6:16[/b] [color=990000]Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey, whether you are slaves to sin[/color][disobedience][color=990000], which leads to death, or to [b]obedience[/b], which leads to righteousness?[/color]

Nothing about our nature, just the word "sin" that is a abstract word for a rwongful act; of wich we can distinguish the word as "disobedience" since we see the contrast to the word "sin as "obedience"

KingJimmy wrote:
For eye color has nothing to do with the inborn fleshly desire to rebel against God. And this is why man must be born again, and is in need of a new heart.

There is a story of scorpion and a frog.
The scorpion asked the frog for a ride on it's back across a river.
The frog asked, 'wont try to kill me"?
the scorpion knew that he would drown along the way if he stung the frog to kill it, so he said, "no, I promise I will not kill you"
So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river.
Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back.
"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion replied, "I could not help myself. [b]It is my nature.[/b]"

Man is not like that, our nature is not to sin uncontrolably or unable to help ourselves.
As we can help ourselves from sinning, only if we know Jesus (which is tho have eternal life).

That is why God only condemns man to hell for not choosing to Love His Son (to know Jesus is to love Him).
Condemnation by choise!
[b]Romans 5:19[/b] [color=990000]For as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners[/color],[in like manner of choosing to disobey] [color=990000]so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be made righteous.[/color]],[in like manner of choosing to obedey]

The only reason man sins is because he does not know Jesus, therefore the affection of ones heart effects vidual choices that one makes.

The choice that you make will naturally follow your affection. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than God, one cannot consistently obey His Law.
Your decisions are [b]slave[/b] to your effections and inclinations so that you only do what you have favor towards(Romans 6:16).

Jeff wrote;

Quote: "Why do you suppose they remain in bondage"

Answer: "They won't hear the truth of Christ being born again in them to set them free."

Jeff wrote;

Quote: "Is God not able to teach them the truth"

Why did you ask the first question? I must have been way off in my understanding.

Second question: answer; God is the only one able by the Christ in them and the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Is this what you are asking?

It sounds to me like the second question answers the first question.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi everyone,

I see you are still kicking this subject around. Let me tell you of an experience I had. After hearing a riveting sermon on the crucifixion, I asked the Lord to show me the meaning of Calvary. I was not prepared for what followed, but it was exciting. Over a period of 12 years I spent most of my days in the Word, being taught by the Holy Spirit. He took me to the account of Garden of Eden to start with, then through the books of the Law and eventually through to the end of Revelation. What He opened up to me, through countless word studies, was incredible. Every question I ever had regarding the Cross was answered.

Following that period of time, I began writing a book from all the reams of notes I had written. The book was finally published in December/06. Since then I have been publishing my word studies on my Bible Study blog. http://ekklesia4him-bible-studies.blogspot.com/
I have encountered a lot of hungry people through the sale of my book, and it is by their request that I am now sharing the things I learned.

I said all that to say this: If you are serious about learning the meaning of the words being debated, you will find the Greek words, their translated English words and all the verses in which they are found. You will be amazed at how many of those words have been misunderstood for decades, which has led to a lot of error. I urge you to check out the studies, read my testimony on my main web site for an interesting account, and read some of my recent articles on just this topic found on this thread.

I trust you may find some answers, but I warn you, it may take a little reading. If you are a lover of God's Word, as I am, you will find them to be a rich resource. All the studies are in PDF for added benefit.

God bless, and if you don't mind, this old lady has to get to bed now.

G'night all.

So then by what you have stated,is God at fault?

No.

Blake

Brother Phillip wrote:

God is the only one able by the Christ in them and the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Paul would teach the same thing you wrote here. Yet most never recognize the gift that has been given freely to them. The promise of the Holy Spirit yearns jealously with the spirit of man. Why did Paul always draw this decision in the many epistles that he wrote...

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:12 ¶ Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

This is Paul's message to all who have received the promise..."Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh."

Paul is always exhorting the believer to imitate the faith of Christ. Christ learned obedience through following the Holy Spirit perfectly. He was made in all ways like His brethren. He took on the weakness that is in the flesh. He condemned the sin of His flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit leading Him. He sacrificed His flesh in every moment of temptation. When Satan brought accusations, cursings, and vile lies against Him, the Father through the Holy Spirit made a way out for Him...

We remain in bondage to sin, if we choose not to follow the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff

Why are you all ignoring what "totallyHis" wrote a few pages back? Is she not worthy of this discussion?

In Christ
Jeff

totallyHis on 2007/4/5 21:15:05
According to the Hebrew dictionary, “image” means “phantom.” Or one could say, “spirit,” 3 which would mean that man was a spiritual being. Although he was flesh and blood, he was capable of communicating with his Creator. There was no consciousness of man’s humanity because, as the Word says, Adam and Eve were naked (nude) and “were not ashamed.” 4 There was nothing to separate man from his Creator. They could walk and talk in pure communion, Spirit to spirit.

Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh, with self-awareness due to the knowledge of good and evil. And the man and woman tried to hide their nakedness with fig leaves. 9 God knew they had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and He found them attempting to hide their flesh.

Had man taken and eaten of the Tree of Life in his fallen condition, and lived eternally, God would have lost forever His creation who was made to worship Him. Man’s condition of flesh now separated him from his Creator, but God’s redemptive plan begins to unfold! He would one day reconcile man to Himself as we see in Romans 8:3-4: 'God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'

You seem to be saying that man is ‘spirit’ in contrast to him being ‘flesh’. It is the peculiar glory of mankind that he is soul and has both body and spirit; he was designed to be equally at home in the world of the physical and that of the spiritual. The physical was not less; it too was God’s creation.

You say that ‘…Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh…’ What does that mean? Did they become creatures of flesh as a result of their disobedience or was their flesh always present but somehow hidden. If it was present what was it that made it visible? You also say that mankind’s self-awareness was due to the knowledge of good and evil. Surely Adam’s comment that “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh” is a clear indication of his self-awareness and this before the sin of Gen 3.“And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” (Gen 2:20-25 KJVS)
You then say that they attempted to ‘hide their flesh’ with fig leaves. What do you mean by ‘flesh’; their bodies or their mindset? You go on to say that ‘man’s condition of flesh now separated him from his Creator’, but what does this mean? Do you mean his body that he attempted to cover, or his mindset? The scriptures plainly declares that it is ‘sin’ which separates men from God not their attitudes. “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” (Is 59:2 KJVS) That is to say, it is not man’s self-consciousness which separates him from God but his sin, and his separation is part of his self-consciousness.

Perhaps, I am concluding hastily but you seem not to be distinguishing between the different ways in which the scriptures use the word ‘flesh’. This seems to be part of rookie’s confusion too. As far as I can understand his position is that Christ had a ‘mind according to the flesh’ which according to the revelation of scriptures “because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:” (Rom 8:7 ASV)
This would mean that Christ ‘was not subject to the law of God’ and ‘could not be subject to the law of God’. Is this your position too?

Hi Ron,

If it is okay with you I will return a little later to reply. I really need to be somewhere shortly.

Until later...
Stella

Philologos said:
We been encouraged to read your post by rookie. I had not engaged in this particular discussion although the thread topic is one we have discussed often. As you say, your post is a long one, and I don’t know if anyone has commented on yours. I am taking as a assumption that the remainder of this ‘chapter’ is built on this foundation so I will try to address the foundation. I struggle to be sure just what you are suggesting here. You say that man was created from the dust and yet you also say that he is a phantom.

totallyHis:
Man was created from the dust but God breathed into him His own breath, which gave man a spirit. As I said in the same chapter, man was then able to commune with God on a spiritual level. When we are born anew, we have the Holy Spirit and also are able to commune with God, spirit to Spirit and He communes with us Spirit to spirit.

philologos:
I think either your Hebrew dictionary is somewhat limited or you have misread it.

totallyHis:
No Sir. The Bible says that man was made in the “image” of God. The Hebrew dictionary shows the meaning of “image” to be this: [tselem (tseh'-lem) From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.] Thus we have the resemblance to God who is a Spirit, as the New Testament tells us in John 4:24. The understanding of the “image of God” passage did not come from isolating the passage, but from seeing the whole picture of our need to be reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

philologos:
We only have to see how the word ‘tselem’ is used to understand that it certainly does not mean ‘phantom’ in the sense of a disembodied spirit.

totallyHis:
That is true and I wasn’t referring to man being a disembodied spirit, but made in the image of God – the word “image” being translated from “tselem”.

philologos:
Rather is it used to express the way in which a ‘spiritual entity’ is expressed as an image. Man/woman is a living soul; the consequence of God having breathed the spirit of lives into a physical body. Mankind is no phantom.

totallyHis:
Where is the argument? We are saying the same thing here.

philologos:
You seem to be saying that man is ‘spirit’ in contrast to him being ‘flesh’. It is the peculiar glory of mankind that he is soul and has both body and spirit; he was designed to be equally at home in the world of the physical and that of the spiritual. The physical was not less; it too was God’s creation.

totallyHis:
The Bible is full of typology, which can be seen in our “drinking Jesus’ blood” for example. The relevance of flesh and man becoming a creature of mortal flesh through the knowledge of good and evil is another one of those types. There is a flesh and blood body and there is a “flesh life” as opposed to a life surrendered to God.

philologos:
You say that ‘…Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh…’ What does that mean?

totallyHis:
They saw their sinful condition. They were no longer pure and innocent and living in complete trust in God. Their new-found knowledge of good and evil made them “like God”, as God actually said, and caused Him to evict them from the Garden.

philologos:
Did they become creatures of flesh as a result of their disobedience or was their flesh always present but somehow hidden. If it was present what was it that made it visible?

totallyHis:
The knowledge of good and evil opened their eyes to their condition of fallen flesh.

philologos:
You also say that mankind’s self-awareness was due to the knowledge of good and evil. Surely Adam’s comment that “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh” is a clear indication of his self-awareness and this before the sin of Gen 3.

totallyHis:
Here again is the typology thing. Adam was speaking of his body and how Eve came from him. The flesh issue, with its spiritual implications, came because of the knowledge of good and evil. Read what God said: “Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

philologos:
You then say that they attempted to ‘hide their flesh’ with fig leaves. What do you mean by ‘flesh’; their bodies or their mindset? Typology again, Brother. You go on to say that ‘man’s condition of flesh now separated him from his Creator’, but what does this mean?

totallyHis:
With the knowledge of good and evil, man could now live a life separate from his Creator, dependant on himself.

philologos:
Do you mean his body that he attempted to cover, or his mindset? The scriptures plainly declares that it is ‘sin’ which separates men from God not their attitudes. “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” (Is 59:2 KJVS)

totallyHis:
Who was God speaking to in that verse?

philologos:
That is to say, it is not man’s self-consciousness which separates him from God but his sin, and his separation is part of his self-consciousness.

totallyHis:
Why did God have to send Jesus to crucify flesh in order to reconcile man to Himself? I know this is not fully answering all your questions but it took a whole book of 210 pages to explain “flesh.” It is not possible here to satisfy every question in few words. If you want the book to read the whole account you can get it at your UK Amazon online bookstore. [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/]Calling Forth The Remnant[/url] is the name of the book.

philologos:
Perhaps, I am concluding hastily but you seem not to be distinguishing between the different ways in which the scriptures use the word ‘flesh’.

totallyHis:
It is typology, of which I am sure you are familiar.

philologos:
This seems to be part of rookie’s confusion too. As far as I can understand his position is that Christ had a ‘mind according to the flesh’ which according to the revelation of scriptures
“because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:” (Rom 8:7 ASV)

totallyHis:
I don’t think rookie was saying that Christ had a mind according to the flesh. In that passage, Paul was telling us that the mind of the flesh is death but the mind of the Spirit is life. Jesus came in the “likeness” of sinful flesh – not AS “sinful flesh”. Look at this passage from the pre-1870 KJV Bible: “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:3-4

philologos:
This would mean that Christ ‘was not subject to the law of God’ and ‘could not be subject to the law of God’. Is this your position too?

totallyHis:
Absolutely not. Christ came to destroy flesh so we could follow Him by way of the Cross, allowing our flesh to be crucified with Him and walk in newness of Life by His Spirit. Check this next passage: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the things of the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace. The mind of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. And they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8:5-9

Adam fell from that place in God but through the Spirit we can once again be in Him. We need no longer be in bondage to flesh and self, and all that flesh produces – whether sin or self-righteousness.

Everyone seems to want to hammer away at “sin” but as dreadful as sin is, our condition as a creature of mortal flesh is what separates us from God. Why else did Jesus tell Nicodemus he needed to be born anew?

Without my whole book it is difficult to be any more explicit. Sorry! Hope this has helped somewhat.

That long line of the URL for your book has distorted the page. If you edit your post and remove it we shall be able to read your post more intelligibly.

If you want to leave it in you can use the URL button that you will find where you entered your original text. Click it and then enter the URL then click it again and enter the books title. This is much tidier and doesn't mess up the screen.

Brother Ron asks this question

You say that ‘…Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh…’ What does that mean? Did they become creatures of flesh as a result of their disobedience or was their flesh always present but somehow hidden.

Paul teaches us about this does he not?

2Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Also

Ezek. 16:8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord GOD.

Have you ever considered what these Scriptures speak to?

In Christ
jeff

Brother Ron wrote:

As far as I can understand his position is that Christ had a ‘mind according to the flesh’ which according to the revelation of scriptures
“because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:” (Rom 8:7 ASV)

This would mean that Christ ‘was not subject to the law of God’ and ‘could not be subject to the law of God’. Is this your position too?

I see here also that you have refused to consider what I wrote. You ask many questions and answer with fewer and fewer Scriptures. Why does it seem like you are trying to block revelation?

In Christ
Jeff

totallyHis:
The Bible is full of typology, which can be seen in our “drinking Jesus’ blood” for example. The relevance of flesh and man becoming a creature of mortal flesh through the knowledge of good and evil is another one of those types. There is a flesh and blood body and there is a “flesh life” as opposed to a life surrendered to God.

The Bible is indeed full of typology but we must not use it as a foundation for truth but as an illustration. ‘drinking his blood’ is not typology, it is metaphor. There always was a ‘flesh and blood body’ for mankind. The race cannot be without such a body. Man’s flesh and blood body is inevitable and necessary to the purposes of God. You seem to see the ‘flesh’ as latent in the body only to be revealed by man’s disobedience. This is a mistaken view.

Their new-found knowledge of good and evil made them “like God”, as God actually said, and caused Him to evict them from the Garden.

The knowledge of good and evil opened their eyes to their condition of fallen flesh.

Here again is the typology thing. Adam was speaking of his body and how Eve came from him. The flesh issue, with its spiritual implications, came because of the knowledge of good and evil. Read what God said: “Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

With the knowledge of good and evil, man could now live a life separate from his Creator, dependant on himself.

Why did God have to send Jesus to crucify flesh in order to reconcile man to Himself? I know this is not fully answering all your questions but it took a whole book of 210 pages to explain “flesh.”

“But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” (Gal 6:14 KJVS)

Everyone seems to want to hammer away at “sin” but as dreadful as sin is, our condition as a creature of mortal flesh is what separates us from God. Why else did Jesus tell Nicodemus he needed to be born anew?

Would everybody say that the Spirit of God and the spirit of Satan are the same?

Would everybody say that the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit are the same?

Is Satan a created being? Is man a created being? Is Christ a created being?

Satan was a created being. Man was a created being. Christ is a birthed being.

How do we receive in the new birth, the Spirit of Christ? Is it not by revelation of God and belief on our part. If Adam believed Satan, who's spirit was birthed in him? A created Satan and a created Adam became one in spirit. "You are of your father the devil".

We must be able to divide the spirit and soul in our learning to rightly divide the word of God.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Our spirit and our soul are separate yet one with our bone and marrow body. We could not receive the Spirit of Christ by new birth if the spirit of Satan was not defeated at the Cross. Now by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God we have been birthed by the Incorruptable Seed of Christ. That is the Spirit of Christ in and the spirit of Satan out.
New creatures in Christ Jesus, "If we don't have the Spirit of Christ we are none of His". Now that is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, that Christ ask the Father for and we receive the Holy Spirit at the same time. The Flesh has to be quickened to contain this new creation in us. We are now the temple of the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ and God the Father abide in and with us.. The Spirit is Christ, The Soul is taught by the Holy Spirit that will be with us forever and we will learn God forever. The flesh is quickened and the quickened seed must be planted in the ground to bring for new live and fruit in Christ Jesus. Then we will have a flesh and bone like Jesus has or we really don't know what that body will be but we know we will be just like Him when He comes.

Adam had not spirit until he chose the spirit of Satan by believing him. Adam Had a soul which is the life of God breathed in him at creation. By believing the Jesus Christ is the literal only begotten Son of God are we not New Creatures in Christ Jesus. Crucified with Him, resurrected with Him and having a new life in Him.

In Christ a new creation: Phillip

It seems I have made an error in offering a small portion of my book in answer to someone's question.

It took 12 years in the Word, with the Holy Spirit's teaching, for Him to show me the meaning of Calvary as I requested.

My book, and yes that one chapter, is the result of that revelation of how sin entered the world, how God dealt with it, how He continues to deal with it, and how He will deal with it when Jesus comes back. It is a large "picture" and much too large to "paint" here. I apologize for opening up something that is impossible to complete in few words. I will not attempt to answer any further questions because there simply is not space to do it justice.

The message in the book is so important that satan attempted to take my life on more than one occasion - another story. The book exposes his stronghold in the "church".

My time with the Holy Spirit was precious to me. I have a love for God's Word that I never dreamed possible - all because of Jesus. He gave me a hunger for Him that can only be satified with a greater hunger. What He has taught me is not up for argument - it is precious. It is a message He gave me for the apostate church and He continues to pour in more things to write about. And now I must get back to what He has called me to do.

If anyone has any interest at all in this subject I can only suggest you get the book and read the whole story. It is not possible for two people to debate a book that only one has read. It is available in book stores, Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, Chapters, etc.

Read the [url=http://www.ekklesia4him.net/comments_on_book.html]comments page[/url] on my site if you want to see what an impact it is having.

An added note: The final two chapters of the book make the one I quoted here make all the sense in the world. God's Word makes it very clear.

God bless you all, and please be nice to each other. :-)

It's very dangerous when you have a theological excuse to blame your sin on someone else. Everyone must take personal responsible for all of their own sin and guilt. Everyone must take complete responsibility for any disobedience they have in their life. And if your theology gives you any excuse to commit any sin, at any time, you have the wrong theology.

If anyone has any interest at all in this subject I can only suggest you get the book and read the whole story. It is not possible for two people to debate a book that only one has read. It is available in book stores, Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, Chapters, etc.

I am always 'nice' to people but I destruction test ideas, especially my own. Establishing sound Christian theology requires that we have hard heads and soft hearts; not the other way around. ;-)

2 Cor 5:17 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

If sin is merely a singular transgression of God's moral law, then this verse makes no sense. For here sin is pictured as being a state of being, just as righteousness is viewed as a state of being. Thus, Christ became sin itself (without having ever committed a single act of sin), and as a result of Christ becoming sin, His righteousness was transferred to us. If sin is merely an action, then Christ could not become sin on our behalf. But because He did become sin on our behalf, we could actually be made righteous... the very righteousness of God.

And this is important to get. For unless you get this, you will be mere preachers of morality instead of preachers of Christ.

philologos wrote:
We have disputed this at length in this forum. My own conviction is that Finney and Jesse are mistaken and that we did receive something in Adam which has permanently affected human nature until it is dealt with in regeneration.

That thing Adam did which has permanently affected human race was death, wich is explained in Romans 8:20-21.
When Adam brought the first sin into this world, then death was passed to all men, because all people sin.(Romans 5:12)

It didn't effect human nature, where do you find that in Scripture?

Brothers and Sisters, thank you for your help and sharing of your knowledge.

I just wanted to say that right now, I honestly have no idea which side is "correct"...everyone seems to have an opinion and scripture to back it up.

HOWEVER - Praise God! Praise God that He is so Big and Vast and Unsearchable. Praise Him for Psalm 145:3 that He can never be praised enough and that His "Greatness is Unsearchable." I am thankful for His mysteries and thankful for His gift of reasoning and intellect. I am thankful that I can not know everything about Him with this finite mind in this finite world...

So thanks again for everything brothers and sisters -but I am done reading posts and commentaries and books and articles...and am going back to simply praising the Lord, knowing that man is in sin (whichever way it comes through to us) and that souls are a small way I can "repay" a God that has has given me so much.

I love y'all.

DO
I Pet 4:2

philologos wrote:

It didn't effect human nature, where do you find that in Scripture?

“For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many [b][in like manner of disobedience][/b] have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many [in like manner of obedience] will be constituted righteous.”
(Rom 5:19 DRBY)

I don't see how we recieved from Adam anything that affected human nature.

Notice the verse before it:Romans 5:12 sais that death passed to all men, and, Romans 5:14 death reigned from Adam to Moses and, Romans 5:15 many be dead and, Romans 5:16 judgment was by one to condemnation of death and
[b]Romans 5:17-18[/b] [color=990000]For if by one man's offence [b]death reigned[/b][/color] (not sin) [color=990000]by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[b]:18[/b] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men [b]to condemnation[/b][/color] [[b]of death[/b]][color=990000]; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [b]to justification of life[/b].[/color]

It sais we only recieved DEATH for the nth time.

But no, you don't want to see that it was death.

Notice How I corrected that translation that you quoted.
It must be that way because if we are made sinners involantary through the one man's disobedience, therefore, we would be made made righteous involantarily through the obedience of the One.

Tell me, why do you insist on that Adam's sin was passed to all men when the Scriptur sais that is is death?

How does death reign? But through sin.

KingJimmy wrote:
How does death reign? But through sin.

What is the law of sin that is in our members(Rom 7:23)?
it is death;
[b]Eze 18:4b[/b] [color=990000]the soul that sinneth, it shall die.[/color]
[b]Eze 18:20[/b] [color=990000]The soul that sinneth, it shall die[/color]
[b]Jer 31:30[/b] [color=990000]But every one shall die for his own iniquity:[/color] &
Deu 24:16, 2Ch 25:4
[b]Rom 6:23[/b] [color=990000]For the wages of sin is death;[/color]
[b]Rom 7:23-24[/b] [color=990000]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the [b]law of sin which is in my members[/b].
[b]:24[/b] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from [b]the body of this death[/b]?[/color]
If death is in our member that causes us to sin, then why do you insist that it is our nature.

How does God condemn someone for haveing a nature that one did not choose?

Thought we have this death that reigns in our flesh because of sin, we may have no condemnation of death when we don't walk according to the flesh, but after the Spirit because we are in Christ Jesus.

Paul teaches in Romans 3:

Rom. 3:10 As it is written:
\t“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 \tThere is none who understands;
\tThere is none who seeks after God.
12 \tThey have all turned aside;
\tThey have together become unprofitable;
\tThere is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 \t“Their throat is an open tomb;
\tWith their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
\t“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 \t“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 \t“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 \tDestruction and misery are in their ways;
17 \tAnd the way of peace they have not known.”
18 \t“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

And then also in Ephesians 4

Eph. 4:17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Eph. 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Paul points to the fact that men walk in darkness, that they follow the futility of their mind. They are afflicted because," having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;"

Is this "ignorance" the source of the weakness that is in the flesh and therefore the reason for men growing in corruption?

Well this has always been an interesting subject to me. I recently went to a conference by Wedge Alman from YWAM where he talked alot about things I had previously thought about concerning this subject. The idea is that if we are born to sin, and therefore have no other option but to sin from birth where is the justice in sending us to hell for sinning? There would be no justice behind sending us to hell unless we really could avoid sinning, we are not hopelessly unable to not sin, we are rather on a sloped playing field. Theres a book on this by Gregory Boyd called ¨The God of the possible¨... I havent read it yet but would like to. Anyways intersting thread.

The idea is that if we are born to sin, and therefore have no other option but to sin from birth where is the justice in sending us to hell for sinning?

How does God condemn someone for haveing a nature that one did not choose?

A person is not sent to Hell for "sinning" as you are suggesting. They are sent to Hell for committing the sin that leads to death, namely blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31(NIV)
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

There is only one sin that leads to eternal damnation: not believing in Jesus Christ.

This makes perfect sense. Jesus died on the cross for all of sin. He brought forgiveness for all sin. To reject Jesus, what He did on the cross is to reject God's forgiveness. It is like a murderer standing before a judge entirely guilty saying, "I did not commit any crime. You are wrong."

To say that God is "wrong" is to claim that you are equal with God. God says, "you have sinned against me." And the sinner says, "I have not. I am good enough. I do not need forgiveness." To claim such a thing is to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. For this, there is no forgiveness of sin. The person, in a sense, has dethroned God. They have claimed to be greater than or equal to God.

That is why a person is sent to Hell.

we are not hopelessly unable to not sin, we are rather on a sloped playing field.

If that is true, then why did Jesus have to die? Why do we need to be saved?

On a sloped playing field, all you have to do is run a little harder, and maybe, just maybe, you can conquer sin on your own. This is not only a lie perpetuated by the Devil, it is what keeps so many Christians in bondage to sin.

See, what you don't understand is that anyone who is trying to conquer sin on their own, anyone who is trying to run up the sloped playing field, is calling God a lair. They are saying, "I don't need to be saved. I just need a little help. I know I can do this." They run harder and faster trying to defeat sin. They are saying, "I know I can do better the next time."

Jesus is saying, "You are completely helpless. You need to be saved. You must be born again." Not only do we practice sin, we are a sinner. Our being, our nature, is sinful.

A large part of the problem is that Christians do not understand what sin is. They think sin is simply breaking God's law. Anyone who is thinking like this is living by the law and they do not know grace. They think that sin is something we do. They see sin as simply doing something wrong. This is a dangerous idea that, if it is believed, will only keep a person in bondage. A person will either think they are "good" because they don't break God's law (like the rich man who approached Jesus), or the person will think they only need to do better next time. Either way, they don't understand that "Only God is good" as Jesus proclaimed. We are not good. We are not born good.

The reason I even know any of this to be true is because I have experienced it first hand. I have lived it. I tried many years to live God's law. I thought all I had to do is try a little harder. Then God showed me the truth: I could never do it because there was something fundamentally wrong with me. I didn't simply commit sin, I was a sinner. My acts of sin was a demonstration of a larger problem internally. Inside, I was separated from God. Because of this, I was a sinner and my behavior reflected this truth. I did what sinners do, I sinned.

Then Christ saved me. He changed me. I was transformed inside out. I was born again. I stopped smoking, fornicating, pornography, drinking, profanity, blasphemy, theft, lying, and so much more. This happened because God changed me.

Through this transformation, my nature was changed. I didn't stop sinning. God changed me. There is a big difference here. It is the work of God inside me, and not me working to please God.

I stopped trying to run up the sloped playing field, fell down hill into God's hands, He picked me and placed me at the top of the hill. I am a winner. I am victorious. I am righteous. I don't have to run anymore. It is done. Sin is dead in me. I am alive to Christ.

So, I ask, if a person is not born a sinner, then why would they need to be born again? Why experience a new birth?

In love,
Blake

Dear Logic,

Your error my friend comes in the fact that you do not understand death.

Romans 5:21 so that even as sin reigned in death...

Death is the separation of man from God. Because of this separation, sin reigns. We are sinful, not because we choose to sin, but because we have been separated from God. We do not know God, therefore, we sin. Sin is our nature because death causes us to sin.

Jesus made this clear in His prayer to the Father. In John 17:3 (NIV), He said, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." To know God, to be united as one with God in spirit, is our life. Therefore, to be separated from God is death unto us.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

If you notice here, the word "sin" is singular. This is because Paul is specifically referring to the sin of Adam and Eve. When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated themselves from God. They were given a choice and they chose to be separated from God. They earned death because of their choice. A worker chooses to work for the wages they earn.

The Genesis story is quite clear about how this separation affected humanity. Once we were separated, God no longer recognized His creation. He said, "Where are you?" This means our form, our being, had changed. God wanted Adam and Eve to "know" Him. However, they didn't choose the tree of life, they chose the tree of knowledge. They wanted to have a knowledge of good and evil apart from God. We chose to know ourselves instead of knowing God. We put ourselves first. This resulted in a transformation. God no longer recognized humanity as the creature He created. Instead, we became the creature we wanted to be.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they became ashamed. Why? Before, they had been surrounded by God's glory. They were beautiful. After they had sinned, they no longer had God's glory. When the glory of God faded from Moses, He veiled his face. Likewise, when the glory of God faded from Adam and Eve, they were clothed. They were ashamed of this new look. This truth echoes in the life of everyone as we age. Our glory fades over time as we grow older.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were separated from God. Because of this, they became powerless to sin. No one can be like God, except God. When we were separated from God, we could no longer be like God. We could no longer be good. It became impossible to please God, and instead, we had become an enemy to God. We had transformed into something entirely different than what God had intended.

Everyone born of Adam and Eve suffer this fate. We all die. We are all born into sin. However, this is not true of Jesus because He was born with eternal life. Jesus was born knowing God. He was born united as one with the Father. Though His mother is Mary, His Father is God. As such, He was born without sin or death.

I hope this helps,
In love,

Blake

Logic on 2007/4/11 0:31:25
But no, you don't want to see that it was death.

Tell me, why do you insist on that Adam's sin was passed to all men when the Scriptur sais that is is death?

I have said neither of these things and believe as you do that it was 'the death' that was the sentence. However, what kind of death are we talking about? The 'death sentence' that was Adam, and our sentence, was to be enacted in 'the day' that he ate of the forbideen fruit. Adam's physical death does not fit these conditions; he died physically almost a thousand years after he 'died the death'.

I don't see how we recieved from Adam anything that affected human nature.

More Notes on this....

Romans 7:18a (NAS)
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh;

The greek word for flesh here is "sarx" which according to Strongs: "the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God"

Therefore, what Paul was trying to say here is that nothing good dwells in my nature. Within Paul is the sinful nature. The NIV version says it like this:

Romans 7:18a (NIV)
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.

Paul is expressing here that within humanity there is nothing good. Not only are our actions sinful, but our entire nature (our entire being) is sinful. This idea is expressed in the entire book of Romans. Paul's whole point is that there is something fundamentally wrong with humanity. Our being is sinful. Sin is in us. We are not merely sinful in our actions, we are sinful to the core. That is why the law, that was meant for life, brought us death. Sin within us, caused us to die when the law was given to humanity. We could never be saved by the law. We were born into sin. We are sinful.

Jesus Christ, knowing this, came to earth to save us from sin. We are slaves to sin. Our slavery is made evident by the fact that we sin. That is why Jesus said, "Anyone who sins is a slave to sin." If we sin, it proves that we are a slave to sin. It proves that we were born into sin. Sin is outside of our control and our ability. We need Jesus to save us.

The law also proves that we have sin within us. It proves that we are sinners. The law is good and righteous. However, when you take the law and apply it to people that are sinful, then it makes them even more sinful.

To illustrate this, let me give you an example. Let us say there is a man who is born a thief. He goes out and steals another man's horse. He does this because it is his nature. A dog barks because it is a dog. A thief steals because he is a thief. The law, however, says that anyone who steals must be punished.

The man then goes before a judge, who sends the man to prison for two years. This man is released. The man does not steal ever again, not because He is a good man, but because He is afraid of going to prison. Inwardly, the man has a desire to steal horses. However, outwardly, He never does because of fear.

The man obviously has an inward problem. He is a thief. That is his nature. Now, if the man was never born a thief, he would have never stole the horse. He would have never broke any law. However, because the man was born a thief, he goes out and steals.

Now, the law proves the man is a thief and this condition is not right. If there was no law, the man would have never known. He would have lived his entire life stealing and thought, "this is okay." However, because of the law, the man learned that stealing was wrong.

However, the law could not change the man. He needed to be cured of this ailment. Inwardly, He is a thief. Can the man help being a thief? No, he needs a doctor. However, because of the law, the man realizes, "Hey, I am a thief. I need help."

The law was given to show us this problem of sin. We are sinners. This is the point Paul is trying to make in Romans. The law cannot change a person. So, the law, which is good, bring death to us who are sinners. Who can help us? Who can save us?

Mark 2:17 (NIV)
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus came to save people who realize they are sinners. They have tried to obey the law. They have tried to be "good." They have tried to repent. However, they realize they cannot do these things because they are a sinner.

I am a sinner, therefore, I sin. The nature of a sinner is to sin, just like the nature of a dog is to bark.

Now....what you must understand is that Jesus knew this. Why do you think He loved people so much? Why do you think God is so forgiving? If everyone went around sinning willfully, they would be no different than the Devil. They should be condemned to Hell. However, God has mercy on us humans because He knows that we are sinners. We cannot help it.

Therefore, Jesus Christ came to earth to make a way for us to be redeemed. We need help. We have a terrible disease that needs to be cured. We cannot help ourselves. No matter what we do, we cannot make ourselves righteous.

If you don't understand this, then pray for ears to hear. This is no small matter. This is how a person is redeemed. We need to be born again. No matter what we do, we cannot overcome sin. We are sinful.

When you understand this, then you understand what we are held accountable for. We are not held accountable for our fruit or actions. We are held accountable for one thing: have we allowed Christ to reign in us.

Everyday we face temptations and choice. The choice we face is not the choice to sin. We do not choose to sin. We choose only one thing: Jesus. Will you choose Jesus as Lord and Savior? Will you let Him have complete control over you.

Even as Christians who are born again, we face this trial daily. In Luke 9:23, Jesus said that if anyone wants to be His follower, they need to deny themselves, and take up their cross daily.

When temptation comes, the question is this: will you deny yourself and seek out Christ? Or will you depend on yourself, and fight sin with your own power?

So many people live in bondage to sin because they fight sin with their own power. They are deceived by the false perception that God holds us accountable for our actions. This is the way of Devil and this world. God is not concerned with our actions themselves. He concerned with the source of our actions. What is the source of our labor? We could donate millions to feed the poor, and this may count as nothing to God, because it was not His desire. He was not the one who sourced this action. On earth, we judge based upon what we see. However, God judges based upon a person's heart. (1 sam 16:7)

Jesus said in John 15:5, "Apart from me you can do nothing." Obviously, apart from Christ we can sin. What Jesus means is that apart from Him, we cannot do anything worthy in God's eyes. We need God to work in us, through us, and around us before we can produce good fruit.

Therefore, it is counted as a sin unto us if we do anything apart from Christ. On the day of judgment, this is how we will be judged. Did you allow Christ to work through you? Are your works sourced from Him? Or are they sourced from you?

I pray that you understand this. We need Christ to reign in us so that we may produce fruit pleasing to God.

In Christ,
Blake

beenblake on 2007/4/11 17:35:54

The greek word for flesh here is "sarx" which according to Strongs: "the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God"

I think you will find that Strong's and all definitions are much more full than this. A good starting point might be [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=4561&page=1&flag_full=1]Strongs and Thayer[/url]. Expand the Thayer section browse through his definition. Thayer was Unitarian, as it is always as well to keep that in mind but his defintions are far more complete than the mini-definitions which Strong provided with his concordance. One of the struggles we must engage with on this topic is the fact that 'flesh' is used in different ways in the New Testament.

The recent thread postings relating to 'flesh' in the Old Testament are very far wide of the mark. The teaching of 'flesh' is very much a New Testament truth although we may well find illustrations in the OT.

I doubt that Finney would have been very happy with your giving him a mid-position between Pelagius and Augustine. ;-)

If a person is not born morally fallen, would it then be possible for them to choose to live without sinning all the years of their life? Why is it that none save Christ ever did such? And if it were possible for a person to go their entire life from the moment of their birth, and never sin, then could they possibly live a life like Jesus and even provide atonement for sin?

Brother Jim asks:

If a person is not born morally fallen, would it then be possible for them to choose to live without sinning all the years of their life?

They cannot because they are ignorant of God's ways.

Eph. 4:17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;

Ignorance is the key to why man walks not with God. He lives in darkness.

Why is it that none save Christ ever did such?

Christ was taught by the Father in all things pretaining to life through the Holy Spirit.

And if it were possible for a person to go their entire life from the moment of their birth, and never sin, then could they possibly live a life like Jesus and even provide atonement for sin?

Eph. 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

This is the only way, to be taught by Him and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

Sin is a result of darkness, righteousness comes by way of the light.

2Cor. 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

Rev. 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

Is. 61:10 \tI will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
\tMy soul shall be joyful in my God;
\tFor He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
\tHe has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
\tAs a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
\tAnd as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

In Christ
Jeff

And if it were possible for a person to go their entire life from the moment of their birth, and never sin, then could they possibly live a life like Jesus and even provide atonement for sin?

Even if another had lived a perfect life he could never have been a Saviour.

Death passed unto all man. The precursor to death is sin. Without sin there is no death.
Yet all die so all sin. No death without sin except for the Christian. No sin without death to all who sin and all have sinned, if we say we have not we lie and make God a liar.

Just as death pass unto all men so sin is the cause of death, then sin must be passed unto all men also.

Paul shows in Romans 7 that it is the law which gives its chief rigour to sin, and that it does not tend to subdue or destroy it; and that power is seen most strikingly in the pangs and horrors of a guilty conscience on the bed of death. There was need, therefore, of the gospel of Christ in you, who has no sin, which alone could remove the cause of these horrors, by taking away sin, and thus leaving the pardoned man to die in peace. "Oh death where is thy sting"

Romans 6:4-11 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

That theory gives a pretty good reason as to why even animals die because of Adams sin. Once Adam sinned, none were permitted to eat from the tree of life, and the garden was most likely totally destroyed in the flood.

That is also why babies die. Not because they have personally sinned yet, since they don't have the knowledge of right and wrong until their minds develope, not because they are evil and deserve to burn in hell

Additionally, it is not 'death' as absence of life that passed through to all men, but 'the death' which followed sin into the human race through 'the one man'.

Adam did not die physically on the day of his transgression but he did receive the condemnation for his transgression 'in the day' that he ate of the forbidden tree. Your view persistently avoids the revelation that... “...by the offence of the one [b]the death[/b] did reign through the one...” (Rom 5:17 YNG)

“...through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation...” (Rom 5:18 YNG)

“...through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners...” (Rom 5:19 YNG)Condemnation is the execution of the sentence and Adam's sentence was 'death', a sentence that was executed in the 'day he ate'.

You have never answered my question, posed in several of these discussions, as to why Adam's sin had this impact on our race, rather than Eve's. It is because Adam was the federal head of our race and Eve was not. Our natural condition in first birth is because we are 'in Adam' and not 'in Eve'.

Gen. 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

How does "knowing" good and evil in light of Scripture explain man's depravity?

You see we know that there is a spiritual world both good and bad.

2Cor. 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

We know that either God or Satan are man's fathers. What does this say of the fall of man?

In Christ
Jeff

""How does "knowing" good and evil in light of Scripture explain man's depravity?""

By Adam's choosing evil for self and thinking it was good, instead of obeying God unto the tree of Life, which is In Jesus Christ. Adam chose his own spiritual nature, the nature of the one believed and obeyed, Satan. And sin passed unto all man by death being the fulfillment of God's commandment.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Adam chose his own spiritual nature, the nature of the one believed and obeyed, Satan.

What about us, what is Paul teaching those in Ephesians 4:

Eph. 4:17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Eph. 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

It seems to me that this whole discussion must be centered on what purpose does God's Holy Spirit play in God's plan and also how the powers and principalities of this world interact with that plan. The flesh is subject to the Spirit or the spirits.

In Christ
Jeff

Eph. 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

We do not wrestle against the flesh and blood...

There is both the Spirit of God, and the spiritual hosts of wickedness, whom do we serve? Is Paul's insight about the flesh different than what is often taught by us?

In Christ
Jeff

Here is an example of the battle that rages in the heavens...

Psa. 17:1 \tHear a just cause, O LORD,
\tAttend to my cry;
\tGive ear to my prayer which is not from deceitful lips.
2 \tLet my vindication come from Your presence;
\tLet Your eyes look on the things that are upright.
3 \tYou have tested my heart;
\tYou have visited me in the night;
\tYou have tried me and have found nothing;
\tI have purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.
4 \tConcerning the works of men,
\tBy the word of Your lips,
\tI have kept away from the paths of the destroyer.
5 \tUphold my steps in Your paths,
\tThat my footsteps may not slip.
6 \tI have called upon You, for You will hear me, O God;
\tIncline Your ear to me, and hear my speech.
7 \tShow Your marvelous lovingkindness by Your right hand,
\tO You who save those who trust in You
\tFrom those who rise up against them.

Only the Lord can keep the destroyer at bay...

In Christ
jeff

Lazarus1719 wrote:
I think that Gordon Olson has a very interesting theory on the tree of life. His thoughts were that maybe the tree of life was not something you ate once and then lived forever, but rather something that you would continue eating and therefore continue living. That is had some physical regeneration power to sustain the body forever.

The queston reamins; Are we born into sin?
I say, no.

We are only born into corruption, dishonour, weakness, and a natural body, for all these are the attributes of being in Adam which all die,(1Co 15:22,43-44)

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me."
Psalm 50:7

We are sinners by choice but born in sin. Only Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary without sin and because of that didnt inherit the fallen nature of Adam.Only He was holy from birth to physical death on the cross.He was the last Adam who came from heaven.

We dont come from heaven like Christ but from earth and our earthly father is adam and consequently we have inherited his fallen nature.
Christ didnt die on the cross and shed his blood only to redeem us from our willful sins but also from the sin that we have inherited from Adam.

We are not born sinners but in sin and seperated from God and his life. How can we be sinless when we are born if we are cut off from the source? The only way for us to be born into this world sinless was possible if Adam would have not disobeyed and sinned agaist God, then his children would have been born pure, holy, sinless with a perfect human nature.

elected wrote:
We are sinners by choice but born in sin.

If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.

Correct!

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were [u]by nature children of wrath[/u], even as the rest

KingJimmy wrote:

If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.

Correct!

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were [u]by nature children of wrath[/u], even as the rest

Ephesians 2:3 says nothing about precondemnation.

Furthermore, if precondemnation is true, there is no responsability for going to hell, since I was going there to start with.

"the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness."

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

All humans are: foolish things, weak things, base things, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

To confound, mighty, and flesh that glories in self. Things that are not are all mankind lost in sin and separated from God. These are to bring for the things God has prepared for His children before the foundation of the World. If these things were prepared before the foundation then why were they prepared? These sinful base things of the world would be in His children already, before Adam was created. Adam was innocent without a nature, only an image of God, Adam chose his and our nature which was already in the mind of God, lest there be no evil tree.
Then kicked out of the garden to keep from becoming permanently evil. The Plan of God was begun. That is in Christ the Hope of Glory.
Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

God wanted offspring's of Himself and no created being could do this, Satan proved it.

He has proved to all mankind that no created being can please God. That is why we were born of God, then recreated in Christ Jesus and new creatures, a new creation race of people, born again in Christ, that have the Nature of God, not created Satan.

Who are we to tell God that He is not justified in Himself to choose all things for His pleasure, that He could have the children in His house that would please Him, not us. Ultimately pleasing us also for who He has made us to be in Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:17-24 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I don't care how He has done it but I guarantee God can say He is righteous and perfect and justified in everything He has done, and all man will say the same when Jesus Christ comes to this earth and sits on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem come down from heaven with the born again Christ Ones, whom He has made new creatures in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

hi, he that beieveth in Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already...jimp

Why would a just God condemn without cause?

It is not without cause. For we are born, by nature, children of Adam. We are made in the image of Adam. We are by nature rebellious towards God. For in sin, I was conceived. From day one, I've been inclined to rebel against a just and holy God.

Ephesians 2:3 says nothing about precondemnation.

That's rather interesting Logic if I've ever seen it. For it says that prior to our relationship with God, we were by our very nature, targets of His wrath. For as Eph 2:12 says, at that time we were separate from Christ, without hope, and without God! "Without hope!" That's a rather grim future to have from the get-go!

KingJimmy wrote:

Why would a just God condemn without cause?

It is not without cause. For we are born, by nature, children of Adam. We are made in the image of Adam.

For it says that prior to our relationship with God, we were by our very nature, targets of His wrath. For as Eph 2:12 says, at that time we were separate from Christ, without hope, and without God! "Without hope!" That's a rather grim future to have from the get-go!

If [b]Eph 2:3[/b], [color=990000]By nature the children of wrath,[/color] means born with a sinful nature and under the wrath of God because of that nature, then it follows that every child who dies in infancy goes to hell where he must forever suffer the awful punishment and wrath of God.
If Children are exempt from Gods wrath, Tell me why, if man is "by nature the children of wrath"
What makes them exempt?

I see that [b]Eph 2:3[/b] means that we put our selves in that state of wrath by ignorance of the will of God.

Because, it is only our [b]nature[/b] to follow the effections of our will, which effects individual choices that we make.

We chose to rebel and sin, because we love ourselves or the world more than God, because of that, we cannot consistently do things that please Him.
Our decisions are in bondage to our effections so that we only do what we have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

Being [color=990000]by nature the children of wrath,[/color] is the consequence of haveing no desire to please God.

That is what [b]Eph 2:1[/b] means in that we [color=990000]walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air.[/color] [b]Eph 2:2[/b]

This can not include infants, because they can not choose to [color=990000]walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air.[/color]

hi,Jesus said...Call no man good... except ? He said this because all are evil or was He wrong? the rich man said he had kept the law but passed the first test not... on the first commandment.jimp you cannot save yourself by your works for they are as filthy in the eyes of God....sin.. can't you see the tree was the knowledge of GOOD and evil.

jimp quoted...

he that beieveth in Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already...

This is the choice given man by God...

At the fall, man was given to "know" both good and evil.

There are now two kingdoms. Satan entered this world as sin, his influence on man is to lead them to destruction by lieing to him.

And we also know that the world was also given the light of truth that comes by way of the Word.

So those who reject the Word are already condemned, and he that believeth in Him is not condemned.

Tyndale wrote in his prolouge of his translation of Scripture in the book of Romans...

page 216

"For how is it possible to do anything well in the sight of God, while we are yet in captiviy and bondage under the devil, and the devil possesseth us altogether and holdeth our hearts, so that we cannot once consent unto the will of God. No man therefore can prevent the spirit in doing good; but the spirit must first come and wake him out of his sleep and with the thunder of the law fear him, and show him his miserable estate and wretchedness, and make him abhor, and hate himself and to desire help, and then comfort him again with the pleasant rain of the gospel, that its to say, with the sweet promises of God in Christ, and stir up faith in him to believe the promises. Then when he believeth the promises, as God was merciful to promise, so is he true to fulfil them, and will give him the spirit and strength, both to love the will of God in Christ, and to work thereafter."

Belief or unbelief in the knowing of good and evil brings salvation or condemnation. This then determines if we are the captivity that has been set free.

In Christ
Jeff

"

If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.

We are predestined before the foundation of the world but nowhere it says in the bible that God predamned the rest of mankind(that were not chosen).God made hell for demons and devil and not for his creatures.

A baby it's a dearly loved creature by God and nowhere in the bible it says that babies will go to hell because of the sin of adam but neither does it say we are born with a good nature or even weak nature. Our nature is bad from birth and not just weak.The bad choice of adam and his sin affected not only him but his children and even nature and world in general.

God doesnt hold us account for the 'original sin', he holds us responsible for our personal sins. In the day of judgment the sinner is not going to give account for the 'original sin' of Adam but for his own.

'Original sin' it's a theological term used and taught by early church fathers , and i think it's the view that has the most biblical support compared with the other options.

elected wrote:

If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.

We are predestined before the foundation of the world but nowhere it says in the bible that God predamned the rest of mankind(that were not chosen

However, Predestination is not the topic.

1. We were born in original sin
2. We were born with a good nature
3. We were born with a weak nature

If someone finds any support from scriptures for point 2 & 3 i'll change my view about 'original sin', if not i'll stick to the first idea.

If we are born with a good nature then the good in us should have a divine origine and the source of it's goodness should be God if so according to this logic our nature becomes evil only when we sin by choice at the age of accountability when children know good from evil.

Is our "innate goodness" when we are born untouched by original sin? What is meant by original sin in itself? Is it an doctrine taught by the scriptures or just an invention of the early church fathers who came up with this new briliant idea? Is it a myth or a truth?

I for myself believe that all goodness comes from God and apart from him everything is not just weak but bad and evil.

elected wrote:

1. We were born in original sin
2. We were born with a good nature
3. We were born with a weak nature

If someone finds any support from scriptures for point 2 & 3 i'll change my view about 'original sin', if not i'll stick to the first idea.

What is the law of sin that is in our members that (Rom 7:23) tells about?
it is death;
Eze 18:4b [color=990000]the soul that sinneth, it shall die.[/color]
Eze 18:20 [color=990000]The soul that sinneth, it shall die[/color]
Jer 31:30 [color=990000]But every one shall die for his own iniquity:[/color]
&
Deu 24:16, 2Ch 25:4
Rom 6:23 [color=990000]For the wages of sin is death;[/color]
Rom 7:23-24 [color=990000]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?[/color]
This is why Paul calls it the law of sin and death in Romans 8:2

Furthermore, how does God condemn someone for haveing a nature that one did not choose?

Thought we have this death that reigns in our flesh because of sin, we may have no condemnation of death when we don't walk according to the flesh, but after the Spirit because we are in Christ Jesus.

[b]3. We were born with a weak nature[/b]
[b]1Co 15:43b[/b] [color=990000]...it is sown in [b]weakness[/b] it is raised in power:[/color]

This weakness is why Paul is unable to do the good that He tells about in Romans 7.