Tongues as Evidence?

What do you think of the statement by some believers that speaking in tongues is definite evidence of the "Baptism" or "Filling" of the Holy Spirit?

I have watched for years such debates on this issue that it tires me. I'll say one thing only on this, the whole baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidences of another tongue is proof of Christ's Life, that He resurrected from the grave and is seated at the right hand of the Father, it's an outward evidence that He lives. The churches focus is so narrow and limited, so manward that it always leads to strife and division. And this question has the same qualities of a foundation for arguements that cause division. This topic has been beaten into the ground on these forums, you may want to look at whats been said already before opening up wounds from by-gone days, Just a suggestion.

I am stunned that there is so little discernment concerning tongues in the N. American church.

I thought Jesus said, you'll know them by their fruit, and not, you'll know them by their gifts. A tree is known by its fruit.

May I ask you, BENOTLEH, what do "you" think of the statement that speaking in tongues is definite evidence of the "Baptism" or "Filling" of the Holy Spirit?

An undeserving brother,
Richie

ravenhill said something like " the only proof of you being filled with the holy spirit is a holy life, Ive listened to many sermons , teachings and read numerous articles in this subject, and i believe scripture is clear.... not isolating one verse but looking at all of scripture, not all men speak in tongues, but surly the "baptism" is for everyone who wants it and believes it and meet its terms. If you receive the gift of tongues praise God! if you dint praise God!

here is an article by Zack poonen, i find it very "covering" of this subject

"Every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation (change)" (James. 1:17).

God never makes a mistake, He never changes and He gives only perfect gifts. Therefore when He gave the gift of "speaking in unknown languages" ("tongues") to the church on the day of Pentecost, He knew exactly what He was doing. The gift of "tongues" was a perfect gift. God has not changed His mind about the gift, for He never changes.

God knew the controversies that would surround this gift in the 20th century. Yet He felt the church needed this gift to fulfill its ministry.

Even major truths such as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the Humanity of Christ and the Person of the Holy Spirit have been opposed and have faced controversy in the history of Christendom. So it should not surprise us if the gift of "tongues" has been controversial too.

It is always best to stick exactly to what Scripture says on all doctrinal matters. Let us look then, with an unprejudiced mind, at every single verse in the Bible on the subject of "speaking in tongues":

Truth No. 1
Mark 16:17: [Jesus said,] "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues... they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Jesus said that some of the signs accompanying the company of "those who have believed" would be speaking in tongues, casting out demons and healing the sick. He did not say that ALL these signs would accompany EVERY believer. But He said that these signs would be found among the company of "those who have believed".

So every believer need not have all these gifts. Neither need every church have all these gifts. But they will be found in the whole church worldwide. The Holy Spirit sovereignly decides whom to give the gifts to.

Truth No. 2
Acts 2:4,7,11: "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance....... And the Jews from every nation marvelled saying....`We hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.'"

The first time that believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, they ALL spoke in tongues. The "tongues" were languages that others understood immediately. So there was no need for the gift of interpretation.

Notice also in verse 4 that it was the persons themselves who began to speak in tongues and not the Holy Spirit. The Spirit did not move their tongues. The Spirit only gave them utterance. They spoke themselves.

In no gift, does the Holy Spirit take away freedom of choice from us. In fact, the fruit of the Spirit is "self-control" (Gal.5:23). Only demon-possessed people lose control of themselves. One who is filled with the Spirit will have more control over himself than anyone else. "The spirit of the prophets is subject to the control of the prophets"
(1 Cor.14:32).

Truth No. 3
Acts 10:46: "They were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God."

Here, in the house of Cornelius, all who were in his house were baptized in the Holy Spirit, at the same moment as they were converted to Christ. They spoke in "tongues" exalting God (praising Him) - not speaking to people, as was the case on the day of Pentecost.

Truth No. 4
Acts 19:6: "When Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying"

The Holy Spirit came upon the believers in Ephesus, when Paul laid hands on them. The "tongues" here seems to have been prophesying.

Note the following facts from the above instances in "Acts":

(a) In Acts 2 they received the Spirit, after water baptism. In Acts 10, they received the Spirit BEFORE water baptism.
(b) In Acts 2 and 10, they received the Spirit without anyone laying hands on them. In Acts 19, they received the Spirit after Paul laid hands on them.
(This proves that there is no standard pattern for receiving the Spirit. It could be either before or after water-baptism, and also with or without the laying on of hands).
(c) In Acts 8:14-18, when the disciples in Samaria received the Holy Spirit, there is no mention that they spoke in tongues. But Simon the magician did see some evidence (we are not told what it was) which made him want the same ability that Peter had.

Truth No. 5
1 Cor. 12:7,8,10: "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit... to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues."

The gift of tongues is for "the common good" - the good of the church. This was written 25 years after the day of Pentecost. And the gift of tongues was still being given then by the Spirit "for the common good".

Truth No. 6
1 Cor.12:11: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills".

This is perhaps the clearest Scripture that teaches that the Holy Spirit sovereignly decides to whom to give each gift (including the gift of tongues). We cannot dictate to Him whom He should give any gift to.

Truth No. 7
1 Cor. 12:28: "God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then... various kinds of tongues."

It is God Who appointed the gift of tongues in the church - for some purpose. So we should never oppose this gift, lest we be found opposing God. Remember that He has more wisdom than we have.

Truth No. 8
1 Cor. 12:30: "All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?"

All believers do not speak in tongues, just like all believers do not have the gifts of healing. So obviously, God does not feel that "tongues" is an essential gift for all believers - either for being holy or for being effective in His service. If it were, He would have given this gift to everyone.

Truth No. 9
1 Cor. 13:1: "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

Speaking in tongues without love is useless. All pride in those who speak in tongues, and all "looking down" on others who don't speak in tongues is because of a lack of love. Such unloving believers who speak in tongues are as repulsive to God as a noisy gong is to us.

Truth No. 10
1 Cor. 13:8: "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

When perfection comes at Christ's return, there will be no more need for speaking in tongues.
In heaven, there will be no need for "tongues" - just like there will be no more need for Bible-knowledge or prophecy.

So "tongues" is a temporary gift needed only under the imperfect conditions prevalent on earth.
This explains why Jesus never needed the gift of tongues. It was because His mind was perfectly pure and because He lived in perfect communion with His Father at all times,

Truth No. 11
1 Cor. 14:2: "One who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."

The gift of tongues mentioned here is obviously different from the one manifested on the day of Pentecost - for this gift is not to "speak to men but to God" and no-one can understand what the speaker is saying.

Truth No. 12
1 Cor. 14:4: "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself
The gift of tongues enables a believer to build himself up spiritually.

Truth No. 13
1 Cor. 14:5: "I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?"

Paul wished that ALL spoke in tongues. This is yet another verse that clearly indicates that all believers do NOT speak in tongues.

Paul's wish here is similar to his wish that ALL should be single like he himself was (as he states earlier in the same letter - 1 Cor.7:7). Paul saw some benefits in being single. He also saw some benefits in speaking in tongues. But Paul recognised that just as God was sovereign in giving the "gift of being single" only to some believers, He was equally sovereign in giving the "gift of tongues" also only to some believers.

Therefore it is as foolish to expect all believers to speak in tongues as it is to expect all believers to be single!!

In the church-meeting, it is far better to prophesy (that is, to speak God's Word "to encourage, edify and console" others - 1 Cor. 14:3). If however a 'tongue' is interpreted, then it is equal to prophecy.

Truth No. 14
1 Cor. 14:9,13: "Unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear (understandable), how will it be known what is spoken?...Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."
"Tongues" must be interpreted when used in a church meeting.

Truth No. 15
1 Cor. 14:14: "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I shall pray with the mind. I shall sing with the spirit and I shall sing with the mind."

When praying in tongues, a person cannot understand what he is praying. But Paul still felt that he should pray and sing "with the spirit" (in tongues), as much as he did with his mind (in a known language).

Truth No. 16
1 Cor. 14:18: "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all." Paul was thankful to God for this gift. So it must have helped him.

Truth No. 17
1 Cor. 14:19: "However, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."
In the church, speaking in a known language is always the best.

Truth No. 18
1 Cor. 14:22: "Tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers"
Tongues are for a sign to unbelievers - as on the day of Pentecost.

Truth No. 19
1 Cor. 14:23: "If therefore the whole church should assemble together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?"

It is madness for all to speak in tongues in a church-meeting - for no one will understand what anyone is saying. (This must obviously be referring to people speaking in tongues individually and not when all are praying together - for in the latter case, we do not listen to the prayers of even those who pray in a known tongue.)

Truth No. 20
1 Cor. 14:26, 27: "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and let one interpret;"

Not more than two or three should speak in tongues in a meeting of the church, but each "tongue" must be interpreted. "Interpretation" is not the same as "translation". Translation is "word for word". Interpretation is "expressing the thought in one's own words".

Truth No. 21
1 Cor. 14:39: "Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues."

This then is the conclusion. Don't forbid the exercise of the gift of tongues. But if you are desiring a gift, seek for the gift of prophecy more than for the gift of tongues.

The True And The Counterfeit

There is a certain amount of mystery about the gift of tongues, as all those who have received the gift will acknowledge - if they are honest. We do not know everything about it. We know only in part (1 Cor.13:12).

As one who has spoken in tongues for the past 26 years, let me add a few words concerning what I presently understand about the gift, from my own experience.

When a person speaks in tongues, his spirit (heart) speaks forth syllables (directly from his heart to his mouth, bypassing his mind) and thus he pours out whatever is in his heart to God - whether that be an overflow of joy or a burden caused by sorrow or discouragement. Thus the pressure on his heart is relieved. That is how he is 'edified'

As we saw earlier in Acts 2:4, when anyone speaks in tongues, it is the person himself who speaks, and not the Holy Spirit. The believer forms the syllables himself, just as he does when speaking in a known language. The only difference is that now, he does NOT use a known language to pray, but concentrating on the Lord, speaks forth syllables with his mouth, straight from his heart, bypassing his mind - knowing that God understands the longings and pressures in his heart, even if he cannot understand himself what he is saying.

Unburdening himself like that in moments of pressure helps a believer, especially if his mind is too tired to pray in a known language. We may not be able to explain how this works, but it does.

Let us now look at the gift of interpretation: As we have already seen, interpretation of a tongue is equivalent to prophesying. So this gift will usually be given by the Spirit to one who has the gift of prophecy as well.

In a church-meeting, if someone speaks in a tongue, one of those having the gift of prophecy (usually one of the elders), if he is walking in the light of God, will find a thought being impressed on his mind, if the "tongue" is genuinely from God. He speaks forth that thought in his own words - for it is not a translation, but an interpretation.

If another elder (who also has the gift of interpretation) had interpreted the "tongue", the interpretation would have been the same (although couched in that elder's own words). This would be the case if both elders were in perfect touch with the Lord.

Since no revelation from God can contradict what is written in the Bible, the interpretation will be in accordance with Scripture - just like all true prophecy will also be in line with the Scriptures.

Some who are sceptical of spiritual gifts have asked this question: If a "tongue" that was interpreted in a meeting, is copied on to a tape and someone else (with the gift of interpretation) in another p lace is asked to interpret it, will the interpretation be the same as the first one? The answer is: It should be, if both interpreters had a perfect understanding of the mind of the Lord. If the interpretation is different in content, (and not just in words), that would only indicate that one or both interpreters are not in such perfect touch with the Lord as to understand His mind perfectly. That is not abnormal, because no believer in the world is in such perfect touch with the Lord as to know His mind perfectly.

The following example will prove this fact beyond any doubt: Suppose you have to speak in a meeting and you have a particular message on your heart which you feel is the burden of the Lord for that meeting. Then, if you are unable to be at that meeting and someone else speaks in your stead, strictly speaking, he should give the same message as you had on your heart (even if it be in his own words). If that brother doesn't give the same message as you had on your heart, it would indicate that one of you did not have a perfect understanding of the Lord's mind for that meeting. So we see that believers could fail such a test even when giving a message in a known language.

That's why the Bible tells us to judge even a prophet's message (1 Cor.14:29). Similarly, we should judge, all messages in "tongues" and their "interpretations". What should we judge in such cases? Just this: Whether our spirit witnesses that the utterance (prophecy, tongues or interpretation) was Scriptural (and from the Lord) or not.

We are warned (in 1 John 4:1) not to believe every spirit but to "test the spirits whether they are of God". So every time, we hear "tongues" or interpretation in public, we must test it in our spirits. Many of the "supernatural utterances" we hear may not be from God. We must always reject a prophecy (or any part of it), a "tongue", or an interpretation, if we feel uneasy about it in our spirits, for any reason.

It is the unquestioning acceptance of everything supernatural and abnormal that has brought tremendous confusion into Christendom in this century - and tremendous dishonor to the Lord's Name as well.

Notice these facts in all instances of speaking in tongues in "Acts" :

(a) In every case, the speaking in tongues was spontaneous;
(b) In every case, all spoke in tongues - there were no exceptions;
(c) In every case, there was no coaching or urging or instruction given on how to speak in tongues;

Today however, in most places, none of the above characteristics are found. Only where the gift of tongues is spontaneously received without any coaching, can we conclude that it could be genuine.

Of all the "speaking in tongues" that I have heard, my spirit has borne witness to only a small percentage of it as genuine. Most of the rest I have felt was an attempt to imitate the gift - either to be accepted by others in a group or to impress them. A small percentage could even be of demonic origin. My observations are based on the fruit and the results that I have seen in the lives of many people in many lands. Speaking and singing in tongues often appears to be a form of "exhibitionism" in many churches - and exhibitionism is characteristic of little children.

It is also a well-established fact that, at this present time, the maximum exploitation of believers for financial gain is practised by those preachers and pastors who claim to "speak in tongues". Most of the cults in the 20th century have also developed from tongue-speaking groups.

My advice to all believers therefore is: "Avoid churches that major on the gifts of tongues and healing - because many of them go to dangerous extremes and usually don't have spiritually-minded leaders. Seek instead for fellowship with a church that emphasises holiness and disciple-making primarily, that accepts the genuine gift of tongues and that does not covet your money or seek to control your life."

Let me also emphasise that we need to use our mind (renewed by the Holy Spirit) if we are to understand God's will and His Word aright (Rom.12:2). Many believers tend to despise their minds. Our mind is to be like a wife. She should not be the head of the home. But she should not be killed either!! Jesus is our husband and head. Our mind should be submissive to Him through our heart.

In a nutshell then, here is a bit of sane advice on "tongues":

"If God gives you the gift of tongues, receive it and exercise it. Speak forth the syllables from your heart to God when you are alone with Him - anywhere - and especially when your heart is under pressure (through discouragement) or overflowing with joy. If you don't have the gift, don't worry about it. But be open to the Lord to receive it, at all times. Don't be against it and don't get into a frenzy to receive it. God will give it to you, if He wants you to have it, without any frenzy on your part. At the same time, don't believe that everything you see and hear in Christendom is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Test everything. Use your God-given faculties of discernment. If you don't have the gift of tongues, don't consider yourself inferior to those who have it. And if you do have the gift, don't imagine that it makes you spiritual or superior to those who don't have it. (Paul and the Corinthian Christians both spoke in tongues. But Paul was a spiritual giant, while the Corinthians were carnal!!)."

What Is Absolutely Essential

What is absolutely essential for all of us is to be endued with the Holy Spirit's power. It is power, and not speaking in tongues that is the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8).

The Holy Spirit is to be received by faith (Jn.7:37-39), just as we received the forgiveness of our sins - on the basis of Christ's merit alone, and not on our own merit. We do not receive the Gift of the Spirit by fasting or praying or by any other work. He is a Gift (Acts 2:38).

We ask and receive - immediately by faith - and go forth believing in God's promise that He gives the Holy Spirit more readily to those who ask Him, than any earthly father would give food to a hungry son (Lk.11:13). If we are unsure about having received the Spirit, we can ask God to give us an assurance. He will not deny us such an assurance.

But we need to be filled with the Spirit continually (because we are leaky vessels - Eph.5:18), just like we need to be forgiven continually (because we sin - often without knowing it - Matt.6:12).

The devotion of our heart to Christ is far more important than our speaking in tongues. "Do you love Me more than everything else?", was our Lord's question to Peter, before commissioning him for His service. Arguments about "speaking in tongues" are therefore a diversion arranged by Satan to sidetrack believers from total devotion to Christ.

The greatest Christians in the world have been those who loved the Lord Jesus supremely - whether they spoke in tongues or not. Some like Peter, James, John and Paul spoke in tongues. Others like John Wesley, Charles Finney, D.L.Moody, A.B.Simpson, William Booth, C.T.Studd and Watchman Nee never spoke in tongues (as far as we know). But they all received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, they all loved the Lord with all their hearts and they ALL walked the way of the cross. These truths were central in their lives. Other things were secondary.

Let us follow their example and we won't go wrong..

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I once met someone who seemed to have a genuine gift of tongues (though I'm not sure if I was in a place to discern it for certain at the time)and wasn't even born again - and knew it!

Oh, c'mon sister! How can someone have a gift of the Holy Spirit without having the Holy Spirit (born again)?

What do you think of the statement by some believers that speaking in tongues is definite evidence of the "Baptism" or "Filling" of the Holy Spirit?

I agree with everything Corey said, and believe me folks... I've seen it all. Used to be right in the middle of it.

Do I believe tongues exists today? Yes, but I believe 90% of what we see in the church is not real. I dont believe it's demonic, mind you. I just believe it's contrived... sometimes knowingly, sometimes not.

This has been a great victory for satan. Unstable emotionalism and frauds have given God's power a lot of bad press.

As a result the unsaved find it hard to believe that God has any real power and believers coil back into a defensive position where they shun the very gifts God designed for them and urges them to seek.

PassingThru

But I don't find Jesus "urging" believers to "seek gifts"

"Urging" may be too strong a word, but Corinthians 1:12-14 makes it clear that the gifts are God's purpose for his church and that he does instruct us to seek them.

[color=000099]
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
...
1Co 12:31 [b]But covet earnestly the best gifts[/b]: and yet show I unto you a more excellent, way.
...
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, [b]and desire spiritual gifts[/b], but rather that ye may prophesy.
...
1Co 14:5 [b]I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied[/b]: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh, with tongues, except, he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
...
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, [b]covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.[/b]
1Co 14:40[/color][color=CC0000] Let all things be done decently and in order.[/color]

What I am pointing out is that misuse has kept many Christians from seeking the gifts as the Bible instructs and also many non-believers from believing.

PassingThru

But asking for "signs and wonders" for their own sake is akin to the proofs the Pharasees demanded of Jesus.

In contrast, rejecting the gifts God has designed for us and instructs us to covet/desire is equally rebellious.

[color=000099]
Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of, the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
[/color]

Note that Ahaz's refusal appears to be scriptural, but it is in fact disbelief and rebellion, similar to the Pharisees' request a sign.

The issue is why we seek the gifts, and how do we handle them once we have them.

PassingThru

Krispy

It is true that not every account specifically states that the Baptism was accompanied by tongues, however Acts 8 does show that Baptism in the Holy Ghost is very distinct.

[color=000099]
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
[/color]

What do you think is the basis for the author of Acts to state with such surety that they hadn't received the Holy Ghost, although they were already baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus ?

Also, John and Peter came to pray so they would receive the Holy Ghost - not to preach Repentance and Salvation. Philip had already done that. When they arrived they simply prayed for the new believers so they would receive the Holy Ghost. No mention is made of them preaching or correcting beforehand.

From another angle (although it's not proof in itself), do you think a "sign-less" baptism in the Holy Ghost that many people claim today would have impressed Simon the sorcerer to the point of offering money?

PassingThru

Krispy

PT... please keep in mind the purpose of tongues as stated by Paul. It was a sign unto the Jews. Why? To show them that the Holy Spirit had come, and that Jesus was who He said He was, and that the Gentiles too had been accepted by God.

Every discussion about tongues needs to be held in that context.

...

Other than that, there is no other purpose for tongues. This talk about a heavenly prayer language is strangely absent from scripture.

Paul also states that tongues has the purpose of edifying the speaker himself. All other gifts have the purpose of edifying the Church.

[color=000099]
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; [b]howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries[/b].
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue [b]edifieth himself[/b]; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
[/color]

Note that Paul's whole theme through this passage is directed to the purpose behind the gifts and their correct exercise to edify the church.

I know some will answer that he was talking about earthly languages, but the context in chapters 12-14 is spiritual gifts.

So I need to ask... how many Jews do you know, and is your exercise of tongues a sign unto them?

I don't speak in tongues, nor do I consider myself baptized in the Holy Ghost.

I've met a couple of Jews, but I don't know any personally.

Now, one of the most often quoted passages of scripture in support of a later receiving of the Holy Spirit after salvation is Acts 19. However, what people miss (and I do not understand how someone can miss it) is that these people the Apostles were talking to were not Christians. They were Jews who were following the teachings of John the Baptist, and had been baptized by John. But at that time they were not followers of Jesus. They had never heard of the Holy Spirit. So the Apostles explained things to them, and they received the Holy Spirit at the time they were saved.

Would you apply the same argument to Acts 8 ?

Anyway, I believe that the Holy Spirit does give gifts. I believe in miracles. But I do not believe He acts in the same manner He did in Acts. If He did... where are the people being raised from the dead? Where are the healing of thousands?

I don't have a firm answer as to why, but I will venture a few guesses :-

1) A lot of people don't believe it is for today, so they reject it. The bible tells us to covet/desire the gifts. No asking, no receiving. No seeking, no finding.

2) Satan has managed to desecrate the gifts through emotionalism, misuse, etc, amongst those who do desire them or have them.

3) A lot of lives are polluted by an enormous media intake. Does anyone really expect to watch hours of soapies and still be overflowing with God's Spirit?

The fact that God's Precious Spirit will reside in a human being at all is one of the biggest miracles of salvation. I don't expect Him to reside where He is unwanted.

(I'll gag if someone cites Benny Hinn here!)

What do you think about Evan Robert's references to the "Grand Blessing" ? Or Jackie Pullinger's comments on only getting results in Hong Kong after praying in tongues for 15 minutes per day?

People have built a whole doctrine about tongues, and are subsequently abusing tongues, on scriptures in which Paul was scolding believers about their abuses of it!

The church today is no different from the Corinthians. Paul was not encouraging them towards tongues, he was scolding them and encouraging them to put tongues in it's proper order... and in it's proper order, it's rather low.

Although he rebuked misuse, he didn't discourage the seeking of tongues. He instructed them to covet/desire them, but he also admonished them to seek further to get the gifts that help the church as a whole.

Paul also taught that not all would speak in tongues, just as all are not pastors, etc. Thats an extremely clear passage of scripture. Therefore, tongues can not possibly be the initial evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Agreed, but the infilling of the Holy Spirit is accompanied by definite evidence.

We can not expect to relive the book of Acts because God is not operating in the same way that He was then. The Holy Spirit moved in the way He did 2,000 years ago because it was the basis for how He founded the church.

That has no scriptural backing. Paul encouraged Christians to seek the gifts in Cor 12-14. Jesus alluded to it in his comparison between an earthly father and our heavenly Father in Luke 11.

[color=000099]
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly, Father [b]give the Holy Spirit to them that ask[/b] him?
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Note that receiving the gifts involves asking for them, and that different gifts are mentioned here as well (in the earthly comparison).

PassingThru

I have to say this, I feel that I am privilidged above many in the church because I get the oppurtunity to meet personally many nationals from around the world. You generally see an increase in miricles and signs and wonders in poorer countries and also in pagan steeped countries. There's a brother in Christ who comes over from Central Africa (he oversees I believe 120 churches as well as schools and orphanages). This brother has uncommon faith and the things that happen in his neck of the woods is amazing, and yes, it seems to follow him here too, but he has a prayer life thats several hours a day and while he's here he refuses to watch any american TV. He comes here once every 2 or 3 years and does what God wants him to than goes back. There has been in the last couple of years documentated cases of individuals raised from the dead. Blinded eyes opened, the deaf made to hear etc... But because mainstream christianity can't profit from it you hear very little about these testamonies in the "TV" ministries hoopla.

That said, in the book of Acts if you read it through in one sitting, you have no other conclusions you can make about the outward experience of the recieving of the Holy Spirit. As to the other giftings it must be rembered that before Jesus died the disciples (more than just the 12) were exercising mircles, healings, deliverences, the prophetic gifts, etc....

In the tongues issue we have some who say it has to be an earthly or known tongue, in other words someone somewhere will be able to translate it verbatim, two things to note,1) Translation is not interpetation 2)1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels NOW where did Paul get the idea that we could even approach unto the tongues of Angels, an earthly language, a heavenly language???
Just spend some time and prayerfully think about it.

Krispy

All I have to say about that is you better get saved then... because without the Holy Spirit in your life it is impossible to be saved. I contend that you are saved (because you confess here that you are)... and that you do in fact have the Holy Spirit. You have been deceived into thinking you dont, so you're seeking something that you already have.

To distill this issue into one question :-

Were the men that Philip preached to and baptized in the name of Jesus in Acts 8 saved before John and Peter arrived to pray for the infilling of the Holy Ghost?

PassingThru

Krispy

I found the account of Smith Wigglesworth baptism in the Holy Ghost here on SermonIndex :-

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=255]The Bible Evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit[/url]

Some excerpts :-

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You know, beloved, it had to be something on the line of solid facts to move me. I was as certain as possible that I had received the Holy Ghost, and was absolutely rigid in this conviction. When this Pentecostal outpouring began in England I went to Sunderland and met with the people who had assembled for the purpose of receiving the Holy Ghost. I was continually in those meetings causing disturbances until the people wished I had never come. They said that I was disturbing the whole conditions. But I was hungry and thirsty for God, and had gone to Sunderland because I heard that God was pouring out His Spirit in a new way. I heard that God had now visited His people, had manifested His power and that people were speaking in tongues as on the day of Pentecost.

When I got to this place I said, "I cannot understand this meeting. I have left a meeting in Bradford all on fire for God. The fire fell last night and we were all laid out under the power of God. I have come here for tongues, and I don't hear them-I don't hear anything."

"Oh!" they said, "when you get baptized with the Holy Ghost you will speak in tongues." "Oh, is that it?" said I, "when the presence of God came upon me, my tongue was loosened, and really I felt as I went in the open air to preach that I had a new tongue." "Ah no," they said, "that is not it." "What is it, then?" I asked. They said, "When you get baptized in the Holy Ghost-" "I am baptized," I interjected, "and there is no one here who can persuade me that I am not baptized." So I was up against them arid they were up against me.

...

As the days passed I became more and more hungry. I had opposed the meetings so much, but the Lord was gracious, and I shall ever remember that last day-the day I was to leave. God was with me so much that last night. They were to have a meeting and I went, but I could not rest. I went to the Vicarage, and there in the library I said to Mrs. Boddy, "I cannot rest any longer, I must have these tongues." She replied, "Brother Wigglesworth, it is not the tongues you need but the Baptism. If you will allow God to baptize you, the other will be all right." "My dear sister, I know I am baptized," I said. "You know that I have to leave here at 4 o'clock. Please lay hands on me that I may receive the tongues."

...

What had I received? I had received the Bible evidence. This Bible evidence is wonderful to me. I knew I had received the very evidence of the Spirit's incoming that the Apostles received on the day of Pentecost. I knew that everything I had had up to that time was in the nature of an anointing bringing me in line with God in preparation, but now I knew I had the Biblical Baptism in the Spirit. It had the backing of the Scriptures. You are always right when you have the backing of the Scriptures and you are never right if you have not a foundation for your testimony in the Word of God.
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PassingThru

The doctrine or teaching on tongues of men and angels dates back to Paul and resurfaces from time to time through out church history, especially amoung factions within the early churches in monastaries, seculuded mountain hide aways where monks sought God and strived to live seperated and holy life,400ad, 800 ad, 1200 ad,etc... through out history there has been what Tozer called that "Mystical" element with in the church, Tozer labeled them mystics. I think that term has come to mean something entirely different these days, now days it means something more on the lines of occultism. But that said, Paul's entire arguement in that chapter is one for the pre-emenience(sp?) of love over giftings. Since he doesn't use extremes the rest of the way through his discourse (as is his habit when pointing out an extreme-"should we sin that grace may abound, God forbid"), his statement can be taken literally as accurate and reliable. However he is showing us a more excellant way, love. The chapters in Cor. are really designed to instruct the church on the proper uses of the giftings and at the same time to bring a sense of reproof for thier misuse. Look at Samson, it would seem that God for His own reasons allows mankind to misuse the things of God, that knowledge has always troubled me.
Now on a personal note to Krispy, Brother you can't offend me or dispute me, I've enjoyed to many of your posts and I kinda like that you stand on your own convictions, God has called Krispy to be Krispy, He has not called you to be dohzman, thank God! :-) !! So I supose we can still disagree and yet hold on to a more excellant way (love) right?

It takes faith to operate in the gifts of the Spirit.

Amen. And this is why satan is pushing hard in the area of misuse and falsification - to kill Christian's faith so they don't reach the real thing. They are then unable to ASK, SEEK and KNOCK because they don't believe God wants them to have it.

PassingThru

I can speak a little Korean and Chinese... is that as good as speaking in tongues?

Krispy

Praise God... thats what 1 Corinthians is all about.

I hope this doesn't come across as being rude, but it seems to me that you are clinging to the conclusion of the text while ignoring the actual teachings it presents on gifts.

If you were to research this topic with the same depth and fervor you've shown with the KJV vs other translations question, I'm sure you will come out with a completely different conclusion on modern day baptism in the Holy Ghost.

I think you are missing out on a real blessing that God wants to impart to you as soon as you can accept it. You are probably shying away from it in your life because of the misuse and falsifications you have seen in the past. We need the gifts operating in love and reverence in the Body today just as much as the early Christians did back then.

There is some excellent material here on Sermonindex on this topic by Smith Wigglesworth. Leonard Ravenhill met him while he was alive and comments on him very briefly in the last portion of the Interview video.

PassingThru

PassingThru said
Quote:

I don't speak in tongues, nor do I consider myself baptized in the Holy Ghost.

Well, you may not speak in tongues, but I don't know how you could have the understanding you do, the gift of interpretion and exposition, if you have not (actually - though unbeknown to you) received the Holy Ghost.

Sometimes He is received simply as the incorruptible Seed, the life of which becomes manifest and undeniable as time goes by, Christ being formed and appearing to those who observe.

Hello Dorcas

It's good to hear from you.

I am not saying that I don't have the Holy Ghost - through the grace of God, I do. It is the Holy Ghost that convicts of sin, and that reveals and glorifies Jesus.

However, I am convinced that salvation (with the presence of the Holy Ghost) and the baptism in the Holy Ghost are two distinct things. I think Acts 8 provides a clear example.

You will note in Acts 8 that the believers that Philip baptized had all of the signs of salvation, so the Holy Ghost was obviously operating in their lives.

The [b]baptism[/b] in the Holy Ghost, however, occurred after John and Peter prayed for the new believers and placed hands on them. This was [b]after[/b] Christ's resurrection and [b]after[/b] the day of Pentecost, and amongst Samaritans even, so I have no reason to believe that this was a temporary arrangement that served a temporary purpose for the time of Acts. I believe my Christian walk is in a "pre John & Peter" state.

The experience of men such as Smith Wigglesworth and Evan Roberts endorse this, although as Krispy has pointed out, Scripture is the greater witness.

PassingThru

Krispy

I have a very intimate relationship with my Lord... and besides... have I ever said that I dont speak in tongues? 'tis ye who hath assumed.

A valid point, I did make an assumption.

It was because of depth and ferver of my studying this topic of gifts that I left that movement.

From your understanding of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the gifts, how do you interpret Acts 8 ?

PassingThru

You make reference to the gift of tongues as it not being a known tongue....where did you get that?

The scripture in 1Cor is just tongues. The word "unknown" was added, it was never in the original text.

Even if you don't want to believe this, you can still deduce that it is a know language because every Hebrew who was present at every manifestation of tongues understood that the person speaking in tongues were glorifying God. This is consitent in every reference of tongues seen throughout Acts. So tongues was a sign for unbelieving Jews that the Gentiles had been adopted into the Kingdom with the evidence of speaking in a language secrets of the mysteries of God that only a Hebrew would have known. This clarifies the reference Paul uses in 1Cor 14 to the old testament.

Please read the text in context...it is impossible to deduce anything else concerning tongues if you read it in it's context.

And I'm sure all of us here understand the importance of context.

What is the context of 1Corinthians...he is correcting them for their misuse of the gifts.

He says that he wishes that they would be adult in their thinking.

Paul also goes on to say...what shall I do then?

Well....When I am in the presence of other people I will pray and sing in a language that I both understand spiritually and mentally.

For our case that would be English. In their case it may have been Greek.

When I minister to people I am hopefully speaking in the Spirit (in English)..when I am singing worship songs along with the congregation I am singing in the Spirit (in English). And I am doing all this in my native tongue that both my Spirit and my brain can both partake in together.

When I write an encouraging letter to a Christian friend I am writing in the Spirit.

This is what Paul means in chapter 14....so many people think Paul is encouraging to pray in a separate spiritual language..then pray in your regional language. And then do the same concerning singing. This is not so...and it is obvious in the context with the reference he makes to the old testament in chapter 14.

Anything we do towards God if he is to accept it...it must be done in the Spirit...reading, praying, singing, preaching, listening....everything must be done in the Spirit. But we have synonimised "in the Spirit" to mean "in tongues".

So when you preach, minister, read the bible....your are doing it in your own flesh?

Why do we cut and paste things just to make our understanding fit.

So what if Wigglesworth is wrong.....so what if we're wrong...just admit it and move on. May every man be a liar and God be true.

This is what happens when we try to make mans teachings fit with what the scriptures read.

DesiJr

You make reference to the gift of tongues as it not being a known tongue....where did you get that?

The scripture in 1Cor is just tongues. The word "unknown" was added, it was never in the original text.

Did the KJV translators made a mistake by inserting 'unknown' ? I don't think so. The word 'unknown' was probably inserted into the English version to bring out the correct meaning of the Greek which may not always have a perfect word for word fit in English. Someone who understands the Greek may be able to clarify this point.

Even if the word 'unknown' is removed from the 1 Cor 14:2, 'unknown' remains clear by the context of the rest of the verse :-

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For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue [b]speaketh not unto men[/b], but unto God: [b]for no man understandeth[/b] him; howbeit in the spirit [b]he speaketh mysteries[/b].
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Note also verses 14-15 :-

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1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, [b]but my understanding is unfruitful[/b].

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, [b]and[/b] I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, [b]and[/b] I will sing with the understanding [b]also[/b].
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Note that 'and/also' highlights that singing in the Spirit and in the understanding is referring to two separate things.

Even if you don't want to believe this, you can still deduce that it is a know language because every Hebrew who was present at every manifestation of tongues understood that the person speaking in tongues were glorifying God. This is consitent in every reference of tongues seen throughout Acts. So tongues was a sign for unbelieving Jews that the Gentiles had been adopted into the Kingdom with the evidence of speaking in a language secrets of the mysteries of God that only a Hebrew would have known. This clarifies the reference Paul uses in 1Cor 14 to the old testament.

"no man" in verse 2 excludes Hebrews. The verse also says he speaks [b]unto[/b] God (not man).

Please read the text in context...it is impossible to deduce anything else concerning tongues if you read it in it's context.

And I'm sure all of us here understand the importance of context.

Context is important, but it shouldn't lead us to completely ignore detail either. Jesus corrected a misunderstanding about the question on life after death using a single aspect of grammar of a single verse "I [b]am[/b] the God of Abraham...". (as opposed to the past tense) By the "ultra context" standard, the answer Jesus gave would be considered invalid.

In the context of a passage of scripture dealing with supernatural gifts such as prophecy and healing, what leads you to believe that tongues is referring to something very ordinary?

Anything we do towards God if he is to accept it...it must be done in the Spirit...reading, praying, singing, preaching, listening....everything must be done in the Spirit.

All things pleasing to God must be of the Spirit, but that doesn't mean all manifestations and gifts of the Spirit need to be reduced to something man can fathom.

But we have synonimised "in the Spirit" to mean "in tongues".

That may be sadly true in some circles. It isn't my case, hey, I don't even speak in tongues!

I am not denying that the level of misuse, and the falsification of God's gifts is high. Just look at prophecy. The vast majority of modern 'prophets' would be stoned by Old Testament standards, yet true prophets have existed in the past and still exist today. False manifestations do not eliminate the existence of true manifestations.

The main problem is that 'prophet' has become synonymous with 'profit'. The turn of the millennium highlighted the difference when 'Christian' books with year 2000 prophecies were reduced well below cost price afterwards :-)

So when you preach, minister, read the bible....your are doing it in your own flesh?

I believe the Holy Spirit makes Himself present in the life of all believers, however the baptism in the Holy Ghost is distinct from Salvation itself.

Why do we cut and paste things just to make our understanding fit.

So what if Wigglesworth is wrong.....so what if we're wrong...just admit it and move on. May every man be a liar and God be true.

This is what happens when we try to make mans teachings fit with what the scriptures read.

You are jumping to the assumption that Wigglesworth is wrong because his teachings disagree with your present understanding of this scripture. You need to consider that Wigglesworth may be right, and you (also man) may be wrong.

Actually, I can see how the same portion of scripture can be read from both viewpoints. My conviction and life experience is that the Bible is referring to 'unknown' tongues and that the Baptism in the Holy Ghost is a separate event to salvation itself (although they can occur together).

PassingThru

I appreciate your tact and diplomacy in your response.

May God continue to draw you into a deeper and more eternal relationship with Him through Jesus by His Holy Spirit.

Krispy said, "I could be wrong, but thats my understanding."

It is this attitude that I stuggle to maintain everyday.....this is humility imparted by the Holy Spirit and is needed to guide us through our Christian walk.