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Some differences from the KJV

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Some of you know I've been reading Tyndale's New Testament, 1534, very slowly, and gaining a great deal of blessing from it.

Ron Bailey (philologos) cites William Tyndale as his all-time hero, and I'm beginning to understand why.

What he (Ron) says about the way the KJV has been tweaked to soften its blows on the sensibilities of the monarch (King James VI of Scotland and I of England), who took the scriptural truth that God chooses rulers (which is true) one step beyond scripture with his 'divine right of kings' philosophy, seems to be true.

There is also a watering down of some truths about the separateness of those who know the Lord, from those who don't, and an exaggeration of the meaning of some exhortations, which come close to encouraging a [i]works[/i] attitude.

As a personality, Tyndale's Paul is far more human, likable - even lovable - and certainly not unapproachable, than he appears in the KJV, where it is harder to find him as the tender-hearted winsome sinner-forgiven who fans faith and prays continually that believers may stay true to their heavenly calling.

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1 Thessalonians 5 (KJV)
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. [i]And[/i] be at peace among yourselves.


Tyndale's New Testament
[i]We beseech you brethren, that ye know them which labour amoung you and have the oversight of you in the Lord and give you exhortation, that ye have them the more in love, for their works' sake, and be at peace with them.[/i]

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What he (Ron) says about the way the KJV has been tweaked to soften its blows on the sensibilities of the monarch (King James VI of Scotland and I of England), who took the scriptural truth that God chooses rulers (which is true) one step beyond scripture with his 'divine right of kings' philosophy, seems to be true.

Have you looked at the geneva bible at all? here is a discussion on it. I know from glancing at it with a friend there are some great commenatry notes that actually even take some jabs at the monarch and king because of his persecution and rule over these fleeing pilgrims.

[b]Geneva Bible[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16323&forum=36

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RobertW

As a personality, Tyndale's Paul is far more human, likable - even lovable - and certainly not unapproachable, than he appears in the KJV, where it is harder to find him as the tender-hearted winsome sinner-forgiven who fans faith and prays continually that believers may stay true to their heavenly calling.

That is the thing about translations- you almost always have to go back and try to compare what the original languages seem to be saying. Being fluent on Greek would be an invaluable thing.

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RobertW said

That is the thing about translations- you almost always have to go back and try to compare what the original languages seem to be saying. Being fluent on Greek would be an invaluable thing.
I agree. I have found myself thinking Tyndale might have had a slightly different Greek text, the meaning flows so effortlessly in places it has been obscured by the changes made to it in the KJV.

Particularly, I'd say his use of English itself and following the rules of English grammar, definitely add to the comprehensibility of Tyndale's rendering. He doesn't waste energy on being poetic, but he is a confident writer-in-English, employing all the devices legitimate to emphasise meaning and keep the narrative flowing.... while at the same time, not being afraid to repeat a phrase if that is the [i]only[/i] way to clarify the meaning he intends to be conveyed. His style is admirable.

When I used the word 'continually' with regard to Paul's prayer life, it is a direct lift from a few lines further on in 1 Thess 5. (KJV first.)

17 Pray without ceasing.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [i]I pray God[/i] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Tyndale's New Testament
[i]Pray continually. ...

Examine all things, and keep that which is good. Abstain from all suspicious things. The very God of peace sanctify you throughout. And I pray God that your whole spirit, soul and body, be kept faultless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [/i]


The word 'continually' is different from 'continuously', in that 'continually' allows for little breaks in service, or rests.

A good way to illuminte the difference is by thinking about rainy weather. If the rains keeps stopping and starting, one could say 'it rained continually'. But if there were no breaks in rain at all, it would be correct to say 'it rained continuously'.

'Pray without ceasing' is like saying 'pray continuously'... but we all struggle with this. Is this really what the Greek means? How many sermons have been preached to accommodate the KJV rendering, which means it will be a [i]failure[/i] to stop praying for any reason at all? This is just one example of Roman thinking in the KJV.

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dorcas wrote:
The word 'continually' is different from 'continuously', in that 'continually' allows for little breaks in service, or rests.

A good way to illuminte the difference is by thinking about rainy weather. If the rains keeps stopping and starting, one could say 'it rained continually'. But if there were no breaks in rain at all, it would be correct to say 'it rained continuously'.

'Pray without ceasing' is like saying 'pray continuously'... but we all struggle with this. Is this really what the Greek means? How many sermons have been preached to accommodate the KJV rendering, which means it will be a [i]failure[/i] to stop praying for any reason at all? This is just one example of Roman thinking in the KJV.

Hmmm, this should be the start of another thread maybe. Not the explanation of the difference between the two words (though that's interesting) but about the possibility of [i][b]"praying continuously".[/b][/i]

I wonder if we [i][b]do[/b][/i] actually "pray continuously" in our spirits. For example, you can be going about your daily business and suddenly been aware of a prayer or a worship song or hymn singing away "inside". Like hearing the sound of the waves when you live by the seaside, (or in my case of trains on the nearby railway line!) or even the ticking of a clock. It's so familiar and that we don't even notice it most of the time.

This of course is nothing to do with comparing the Tyndale Bible with the KJV, but just a thought...

I've been tempted to rip out the King James "dedication" at the front, because James wasn't a good man, even if he did authorise it! I suppose they wouldn't have been allowed ot publish it unless they put some flattering stuff about him...

I hate some of the OT page headings too.

Otherwise I prefer the KJV, (honest ;-)) but not especially for its accuracy (although some of thiat is probably because of the old-style English - many words having changed in meaning. So I keep Strong's Concordance handy to check it out when needed.


Jeannette

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philologos

WILLIAM TYNDALE: A BIOGRAPHY by David Daniel is a must-read book for fans of William Tyndale. If you like history and true historic discipline you will particularly like this book.

David Daniel will tell you what Tyndale studied at University and what books he was reading while he was engaged in the various revisions of the Tyndale translation. He will show you why Tyndale varied from Luther in the prologues to the New Testament books.

The book is now out of print but might be available second hand.

When you have read this you should then read [url=http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Secretaries-Making-James-Bible/dp/0060838736/ref=sr_1_1/102-2621200-4988121?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177057418&sr=1-1]God's Secretaries[/url], the making of the King James Version.

No one should contend for one version against another until he has read these books... and BTW my version of preference is still the KJV. :-D

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sermonindex said

Have you looked at the geneva bible at all?
Thanks, and not yet, but I know I'm in my infancy of understanding the subtle differences between the translations.

Also, Daniell mentions the Geneva Bible and how widely it was used for a long time, so I have understood it was very influential in its day.


philologos said

No one should contend for one version against another until he has read these books
I will look out for them.... have read God's Outlaw.

My enjoyment of Tyndale's New Testament is based on what is striking my understanding with clarity, which I never saw before after much KJV reading. I'm stunned by the effect of the changes the KJV translators made, though often, when compared, they appear to be saying the same thing as Tyndale. But his meaning is not how theirs reads. It's weird.

It has occurred to me also, that in the same way as the KJV translators influenced certain verses, perhaps Tyndale also was compensating slightly for the mindset of his readers.

However, what comes through to my spirit is the work of an honest man who knew the Lord and both [i]understood[/i] and loved His word.

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PaulWest

When you have read this you should then read God's Secretaries, the making of the King James Version

I read this book a few years ago. I thought it was well-written, but I had conflicting feelings on the actual bias of the author. It seemed at some points he was actually mocking certain of the translators. I think it's great to have a critical book on the origin of the KJV written by a secular-minded journalist/author. I just couldn't help noticing some little quirks. Did you pick up on any of these, Ron?

I wish I had the book to reference certain examples right now, but I'm not at home. I clearly remember the author rather shamefully depicting one of the translators as "mentally disturbed" and "depressed" and "pathetic" for his tendency to spend hours and hours each morning while he "wept over sin". I thought, "Yes! Would to God I had a heart for the same!" The author, however, seemed to clearly misunderstand this and instead chalk it off as some kind of mental incompetency. I remember chuckling at this, thinking how ironic. This is so typical of how the unregenerate interpret the things of God.

It was a wonderful, fact-filled book (though I am no King James expert) and, like Ron, I also recommend giving it a whirl. Just beware of certain insensitivities (at least, this was [i]my[/i] interpretation).

Ron may very well disagree.

Brother Paul

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theopenlife

Is there somewhere online that I can read the Tyndale version? Especially perhaps one with modern spelling?

Thanks.

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PreachParsly

[url=http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/tyndale/index.htm]Right Here[/url]

It says it was made available by Ron Bailey... I wonder if this is the Ron Bailey of this site...

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JaySaved

Tyndale sure could have used a spell checker. :-)

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JaySaved

I recently bought [url=http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-William-Tyndale/dp/1840221291/ref=sr_1_13/103-1271459-7508638?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177090336&sr=8-13]this version[/url] of Tyndale's New Testament. It is great because it also contains his notes.

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Re: Is there somewhere online?


Hi openlife

This is the modern-spelling version I'm using.

Although I've given you the UK link (below), I know it is available new through bookstores currently in the US, for $21.

[url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tyndales-New-Testament-William-Tyndale/dp/0300065809/ref=sr_1_2/026-8141730-5544443?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177260387&sr=1-2]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tyndales-New-Testament-William-Tyndale/dp/0300065809/ref=sr_1_2/026-8141730-5544443?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177260387&sr=1-2[/url]


This version is technically copyright from being put online.

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sermonindex

Tyndale sure could have used a spell checker

Yas, soo culd I. I em nut da bestest spelr in da werld.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr wrote:
Tyndale sure could have used a spell checker

Yas, soo culd I. I em nut da bestest spelr in da werld.

Krispy

:-P

Have you ever read the original KJV 1611? English had not yet been standardized so there are alot of crazy spellings. I have a copy and read it often. It has the apocrypha stuck right in the middle (which is good for historical value). I really like the way this bible flows. All those mispelled words add something to it. It's like you can't wait to turn the page to see whats next.

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BeYeDoers

It's "misspelled" :-P

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rookie

From Tyndale...

Ephesians 2:1-3

"And hath quickened you also that were dead in trespass and sin, in the which in the time past ye walked, according to the course of this world, and after the governor that ruleth in the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of unbelief, among which we also had our conversation in time past, in the lusts of our flesh, and fulfilled the will of the flesh and of the mind: and were naturally the children of wrath, even as well as the other."

I found first, that the 'governor that ruleth in the air" works in the children of "unbelief."

Do you see what this is saying?

Also, secondly, we all "had our conversation in time past," with this "governor."

What does it mean to converse with the "governor" of this world?

In Christ
Jeff

Edit...

PS...I found that the KJV is similar to the Tyndale translation...I usually quote from the NKJV.

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philologos

I wonder if this is the Ron Bailey of this site...

As it happens... yes, it is. I did it quite a few years ago.

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philologos said

...BTW my version of preference is still the KJV.
I agree that the general English of the KJV is more accessible now, but this is partly because of the way some older English has changed in meaning.... for instance, Tyndale's use of the word 'fortune' could be confusing.

Since you posted your comments, Ron, I've realised even more how my love of hymns and their quaint re-ordering of words in sentences, had prepared me for making sense of Tyndale.

Without doubt, his style could be a lot of work for some people. But for me, also [i]without doubt[/i], the Holy Spirit has used his classical English to bring some meanings to life for me. And I find his marginal notes helpful.

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RobertW

As it happens... yes, it is. I did it quite a few years ago.

Did you type it all out also? That would be quite an undertaking.

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philologos said

As it happens... yes, it is. I did it quite a few years ago.
RobertW said
Did you type it all out also? That would be quite an undertaking.
JaySaved said
Tyndale sure could have used a spell checker.
Ron, this is great. Thank you so much!! Now, I've been thinking of doing that spell-check Jay asked for... Would you object?

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I've been checking out Hebrews the last few days, and came to chapter 12 again, where I found this:

23 and unto the congregation of the [b]first-born sons[/b] which are written in heaven.


Is this correct, that 'first-born' is not referring to Jesus (directly) but to [u]all[/u] born again believers?

Is the reference to 'written in heaven', which is translated as 'enrolled' or 'registered', anything to do with the Lamb's book of life, or, is this something else - some other book or scroll?

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Heb 12:23 - To the general assembly3831 and2532 church1577 of the firstborn,4416 which are written583 in1722 heaven,3772 and2532 to God2316 the Judge2923 of all,3956 and2532 to the spirits4151 of just men1342 made perfect,5048

To the general assembly (πανηγύρει)
Const. with αγγέλων of angels, with comma after angels. Rend. “to a festal assembly of angels.” This and the next clause show what the myriads consist of, - a host of angels and redeemed men. Πανήγυρις, N.T.o , is a gathering to celebrate a solemnity, as public games, etc.: a public, festal assembly. Frequently joined with εορτή feast. See Eze_47:11; Hos_2:11; Hos_9:5. The verb πανηγυρίζειν to celebrate or attend a public festival, to keep holiday, occurs occasionally in Class.: not in N.T.: lxx once, Isa_66:10. The festal assembly of angels maintains the contrast between the old and the new dispensation. The host of angels through whose ministration the law was given (see on Heb_2:2, and see on Gal_3:19) officiated at a scene of terror. Christian believers are now introduced to a festal host, surrounding the exalted Son of man, who has purged away sins, and is enthroned at God's right hand (Heb_1:3).

And church of the first-born which are written in heaven (καὶ εκκλησία πρωτοτόκων απογεγραμμένων εν ουρανοις)
This forms a distinct clause; “and to the church,” etc. For εκκλησία assembly or church, see on Mat_16:18; see on 1Th_1:1. The “myriads” embrace not only angels, but redeemed men, enrolled as citizens of the heavenly commonwealth, and entitled to the rights and privileges of first-born sons. Πρωτότοκος first-born is applied mostly to Christ in N.T. See Rom_8:29; Col_1:15, Col_1:18; Heb_1:6; Rev_1:5. Comp. Heb_11:28, and Luk_2:7. Properly applied to Christians by virtue of their union with Christ, “the first-born of all creation,” “the first-born from the dead,” as sharing his sonship and heirship. See Rom_8:14-17, Rom_8:29. The word also points to Christians as the true Israel of God. The analogy is suggested with the first-born of Israel, to whom peculiar sanctity attached, and whose consecration to himself God enjoined (Exo_13:1, Exo_13:11-16); and with the further application of the term first-born to Israel as a people, Exo_4:22. The way was thus prepared for its application to the Messiah. There seems, moreover, to be a clear reference to the case of Esau (Heb_12:16). Esau was the first-born of the twin sons of Isaac (Gen_25:25). He sold his birthright (πρωτοτοκία), and thus forfeited the privilege of the first-born. The assembly to which Christian believers are introduced is composed of those who have not thus parted with their birthright, but have retained the privileges of the first-born. The phrase “church of the first-born” includes all who have possessed and retained their heavenly birthright, living or dead, of both dispensations: the whole Israel of God, although it is quite likely that the Christian church may have been most prominent in the writer's thought.

Which are written in heaven (απογεγραμμένων εν ουρανοις)
Απογράφειν, only here and Luk_2:1, Luk_2:3, Luk_2:5, means to write off or copy; to enter in a register the names, property, and income of men. Hence, απογραφή an enrollment. See on Luk_2:1, Luk_2:2. Here, inscribed as members of the heavenly commonwealth; citizens of heaven; Phi_4:3; Rev_3:5; Rev_13:8, etc. See for the image, Exo_32:32; Psa_69:28; Isa_4:3; Dan_12:1; Luk_10:20.

To God the judge of all (κριτη θεω πάντων)
Rend. “a judge who is God of all.” Comp. Dan_7:9 ff. God of all his first-born, of those whom he chastens, of all who are in filial relations with him under both covenants, and who, therefore, need not fear to draw near to him as judge.

Spirits of just men made perfect (πνεύμασι δικαίων)
The departed spirits of the righteous of both dispensations, who have completed their course after having undergone their earthly discipline. Notice again the idea of τελείωσις, not attained under the old covenant, but only through the work of Christ, the benefits of which the disembodied saints of the O.T. share with departed Christian believers. Vincent's Word Studies.

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Thanks (again) Annie,

I was all ready to put a 'PS' to my post with Tyndale's marginal note on 'first born sons'. I had no idea there was so much embodied in it!

He picks out - and is always picking out - the things which assist our understanding in a most personal way (or at least, that's how I find myself reading him). This one is bound to make one feel particularly blessed, and hopeful, I think.

'First born sons, that is, the sons of God because the firstborn were dedicated unto God.'

Amen. :-)

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