Total deaths (all excess deaths) Johns Hopkins- As of June 2006: 654,965 (range of 392,979-942,636
What happened at VT is horrible - but let's keep it in perspective.
This ethnocentricity is nauseating.
WOW.
All this as slavery runs rampant in Sudan. The Muslims in Nigeria and Sudan are slaughtering Christians. If we preached Open Air in Saudi Arabia we wouldn't face a petty arrest, we'd be executed. Chinese Christians baptize each other at night, so they are not caught. We are taking our faith much to lightly, may God put a burden for Him and the lost our hearts....one day shall be our last
The silence on this thread is deafening...
The silence on this thread is deafening...
Also another reason is the fact that most conversations on the forums are trying to focus on spiritual matters and "things above." Paul the apostle tells us to think upon things that of "worthy report." There is a time to talk about everything under the sun also.
America is not the church. If that is what you are trying to convey then just say it. I think the remenant of believers in America and else where needs to stand up and be the light of God again in this generation!
[b]Americas Only Hope (video) by Keith Daniel
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4631
Half a million Arabs dead and no one here raises an eyebrow.
Thirty-two American "best and brightest" die and the world's going to pieces.
Ethnocentrism.
I think the remenant of believers in America and else where needs to stand up and be the light of God again in this generation!
Amen. We need to be that salt and light. the world inevitably will decay and wax worse and worse; but it seems to me that much of our responsibility as believers is to slow that process within the realm of our influence. It may not be pedantic, but I like the illustration of salt slowing the process of meat spoilage. The animal is dead and will decay no matter what; but salt will slow that process very much. We need to do what we can to stop that decay in a society sliding to utter degredation.
As for what Corey stated in the 'silence being deafening' I think also that we can't process that much death. We live in an age where we see bad new every day and sometimes many times a day. Things that happen that we have absolutely no control over. That is not to say we don't in some way mourn or try to do what we can; it is to say that we can wear ourselves down worrying about every problem in the world. We have to pray and put it in the hands of God. He is not having a nervous breakdown in Heaven. He has all this under control.
Half a million Arabs dead and no one here raises an eyebrow.Thirty-two American "best and brightest" die and the world's going to pieces.
I don't think this is a fair statement. I am vexed at death no matter where it is or what color or race. I am vexed when our soldiers are killed [i]and
even this does not beat the amount of people who are going to hell.
Luke 13:4-5
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners F35 above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Half a million Arabs dead and no one here raises an eyebrow.Thirty-two American "best and brightest" die and the world's going to pieces.
Ethnocentrism.
even this does not beat the amount of people who are going to hell.
RobertW said:
I am vexed when our soldiers are killed and when they are carrying a 2 year old in their arms that has just deceased.
I see. So American soldiers are [i]killed[i]just deceased
the difference is that most of the death we read about is perpetrated by Islamic Extremists who have no respect for life whatsoever. They don't even a basic sense of self-preservation. They will even kill their own.
So you're saying half a million people died by suicide bombers?
We did not raise our people in America to strap on bombs pretending to be pregnant and blow up hundreds indiscreminantly.
No, we train our kids to kill and rape in video games, then train them to [i]strap
So when someone walks in and starts shooting people it has a tendency to create a shock.
No doubt.
We have to pray and put it in the hands of God. He is not having a nervous breakdown in Heaven. He has all this under control.
Corey, you are right that we need to keep it in perspective, but "nauseating" is a very judgemental word to use.
Corey_H wrote:...What happened at VT is horrible - but let's keep it in perspective.
This ethnocentricity is nauseating.
I get the feeling that this "ethnocentricity" is entirely innocent, not deliberate or motivated by selfishness. If someone in your family was shot in the John Hopkins tragedy, you wouldn't have any grief to spare for the dead in Iraq or Sudan.
Maybe that's how it is for most Americans - its like it happened to someone in their own family!
Is that so?
Jeannette
1 Cor. 13:3-8
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. [4] Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. [8] Charity never faileth:
This is what we are called to do and we will if we are filled with the love of Christ.
It makes no difference what country they are from, if they hate us or love us; There is no excuse for not following our Lord's example, we are commanded to love and it is about time we stop making excuses for not obeying.
Love thinketh no evil; Love 'Never Fails'
In His Love
pastorfrin
Jeanette said:
Corey, you are right that we need to keep it in perspective, but "nauseating" is a very judgemental word to use.I get the feeling that this "ethnocentricity" is entirely innocent, not deliberate or motivated by selfishness. If someone in your family was shot in the John Hopkins tragedy, you wouldn't have any grief to spare for the dead in Iraq or Sudan.
Maybe that's how it is for most Americans - its like it happened to someone in their own family!
Is that so?
Jeanette, from the online dictionary:
eth·no·cen·trism
–noun
1. [i]Sociology.
2. a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.
Ignorance is not innocence.
The American media had a field day when Natalee Holloway went missing in 2005. So did the churches.
Where's the media on the estimated twelve million people, mostly African and Asian women and children, sold into slavery...? Where's our prayers for them? Where's our posts about them? When's the last time someone in our churches prayed for them?
Yes, it's horrible that Holloway went missing - and it's horrible that thirty-two people were gunned down. But being educated, middle-class, blond-haired, blue-eyed, pretty, whatever - doesn't make one more important to the LORD. And it shouldn't to Christians, either.
Keep it in perspective.
pastorfrin said:
It makes no difference what country they are from, if they hate us or love us; There is no excuse for not following our Lord's example, we are commanded to love and it is about time we stop making excuses for not obeying.
Amen!
Greg said, (emphasis added)
"Do the arabs care that American's are dying? that the massacare happened? of course not they are worried about themselves. Thus we must remember we are talking about "worldlings" who are consumed on themselves and their own lusts which is corrupting them."
This is a fallacy. Of those over 600,000 deaths most were innocent civilians. And for you to denigrate them based on their sinful state and to act like they are somehow on a lower echelon and their death doesn't matter is ridiculous and not very Christ-like.
Of course the Arabs care that the massacre happened! They feel empathic for the people that died. Why? Because they face this sort of stuff a lot in their locality (Middle East). You think all Arabs are a bunch of savages who just love when a person kills innocent people, and love it especially if their American? How much FOX News do you watch?
Yes, there are a lot of Arabs that are just jumping up for joy at the fact that 32 Americans lay dead... but that in no shape represents most of the Arabian population, and for you to make a broad generalization that Arabians feel that way, is just simply disrespectful.
Jordan
This is a fallacy. Of those over 600,000 deaths most were innocent civilians. And for you to denigrate them based on their sinful state and to act like they are somehow on a lower echelon and their death doesn't matter is ridiculous and not very Christ-like.
I am not happy to see any massacares or tragedies happen. But we do live in a fallen world. I was just trying to get Corey to think outside of the box that he has made which he feels is out of the box. Simply put the american media is not the mirror of justice by any means. They are self-consumed and sinful.
I just think its a wasted argument to try and prove the fact that North America has pride, self-infactuation, and egotism. Its a fact! move on.
deltadom said:
even this does not beat the amount of people who are going to hell.Luke 13:4-5
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners F35 above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Thank you brother! Amen for the Scriptures.
jordan said:
This is a fallacy. Of those over 600,000 deaths most were innocent civilians. And for you to denigrate them based on their sinful state and to act like they are somehow on a lower echelon and their death doesn't matter is ridiculous and not very Christ-like.
Innocent civilians in man's eyes maybe - but Christ hating rebels in God's eyes...as are all men apart from Jesus.
Psalm 53:3[i]Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
I see. So American soldiers are killed while Arab babies are just deceased?
So you want to play hard ball? What do you know about death? My comments are from a picture on my desktop of an American Soldier carrying a mortally wounded 2 year old boy.
So you're saying half a million people died by suicide bombers?
We had long since been out of Iraq had the madness stopped and you know it so don't try it. Ed. One of al-Qaida's clearly stated goals is the re-establishment of a Caliphate. Al Qaeda recently named its Internet newscast from Iraq "The Voice of the Caliphate."
For those who may not understand this, the radical extremism we see going on in the senseless killings of thousands of innocent people is all part and portion of the attempted reestablishment of [i]Caliphate
Only non-Muslims misunderstand the term Jihad. They have a clear understanding of what it is. Jihadists do not want peace. They want war. They have been slowly manipulating the world into somehow believing they were a peace loving people while they slowly raised the knife to the throat. If they had a nuclear device right now they would use it. Had they had one on 9-11 New York City would be a real life version of [i]The Day After
CALIPHATE; it's all about [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate#End_of_Caliphate.2C_1924]CALIPHATE.
No, we train our kids to kill and rape in video games, then train them to strap bombs to the underside of state-of-the-art stealth warplanes so we can "kill us some A-rabs". Then we strip, humiliate, and photograph the survivors in Abu Ghraib. When the pictures are "leaked", we relocate the prisoners to Guantanemo Bay. Strip, humiliate, photograph. Repeat.
No, I have trained up my kids in the fear and admonishion of the Lord and what they do with that is on their heads.
So you believe the world would be a better place if the United States of America did not exist?
Where's the media on the estimated twelve million people, mostly African and Asian women and children, sold into slavery...? Where's our prayers for them? Where's our posts about them? When's the last time someone in our churches prayed for them?
How much have [u]you
ed. 4/21/07
Me too! We all tend to make boxes in which we feel safe. But it can so easily lead to an "us and them" attitude; or "they are wrong, I'm right" attitude. Both are "boxes", both are wrong.
sermonindex wrote:
...I am not happy to see any massacares or tragedies happen. But we do live in a fallen world. I was just trying to get Corey to think outside of the box that he has made which he feels is out of the box...
We have to see clearly that our true citizenship is in heaven, not in this or that nation. But to judge anyone who maybe doesn't see this very clearly yet is to be in danger of "elder brother syndrome" (as in the parable of the Prodigal Son).
Indeed, let's move on
Blessings
Jeannette
Corey, I think that you are trying to say something important here, and I’m listening (through your strong expressions)–
This ethnocentricity is nauseating.
The silence on this thread is deafening...
Half a million Arabs dead and no one here raises an eyebrow.
Thirty-two American "best and brightest" die and the world's going to pieces.
Where's the media on the estimated twelve million people, mostly African and Asian women and children, sold into slavery...? Where's our prayers for them? Where's our posts about them? When's the last time someone in our churches prayed for them?
Keep it in perspective.
Are you trying to get us to see through the eyes of Christ? Really, that is the correct perspective – it is the bigger picture. The more we are tuned to Christ’s heartbeat, the more we can we see the bigger picture, and that includes a heart for the suffering individuals all over the world.
Corey, I think that you and I are on the same wavelength. Today, I was about to post a new thread today called, “Can you see the bigger picture?” Maybe I’ll do that later and for now just post my opening thoughts here:
Can you See the Bigger Picture?
Do you suspect that because of our egocentric culture we fail to see ourselves in the bigger picture? I do. That is especially true regarding God’s redemptive work in humanity. Really we are only a small blip on God’s map - his bigger picture.
Of course, from our perspective we are the center, and everything distant from us, whether past or present, is lesser. This “visual” distortion will certainly affect the way we view the rest of the world – past and present. It affects the ways we understand Scripture, and the ways we relate to others.
Cont’d….
Corey, may your observations help your heart grow bigger - and may you take on the compassion of Christ.
Diane
I think this thread could have been a lot nicer stated.
I, too, thought and prayed last monday over the 170 killed in Baghdad and Sadr City right after the VT killings. The violence in Iraq has been unrelenting and truly awful. I think, if we took all this death into account, it would cause all of us to repent and run back to Christ with more zeal.
With that being said, I have an issue with the way Corey began this thread. While I feel his perspective, certainly, I do not like the way "nauseating" and "ethnocentric" was used. It came off as very self-righteous, assuming that he, of all the posters on this board, has a heart for the lost and suffering in Iraq.
Now certainly he did not mean that, I am sure, but I think a better way to have said that would have been - 'I think we need to keep this in perspective. nearly 700,000 have been killed in this war, and hopefully this tragedy illuminates our need to grieve and pray over the death and destruction in this war, and indeed in the world that we don't even know about.'
Something like this would have been less divisive - we're all reasonable Christians here (i think), sometimes we just need something to happen or someone to remind us to be aware of the big picture - i think we're all guilty of being ignorant in some way or another. :cry:
Hey Cory,
I feel that your original idea and heart was in the right place, but as many people have stated, your delivery may have been harsh, especially towards the people on SI.
As I see, living in South Korea, the world may grieve or show some sort of remorse in their own way (God knows), but in reality, everyone moves on with their lives.
When this first happened (Vtech), I watched CNN and prayed for the people, and although I was watching it at my school where we have a huge 20 set TV entertainment system, no one seemed to show interest.
The next day, after hearing that it was a Korean involved, many people stopped and watched the news along with me. It has been a topic of discussion in all of my classes now, where on Monday it was just 'unfortunate'.
The thing is that it happened in America's 'back yard', so of course, their will be much attention. Would you react differently if it happened on your street, opposed to mine, here in Korea?
Do not get me wrong, I see the large amount of attention brought to this. I saw Wolf Blitzer, 'Live, in Virgina'...interviewing anyone that would sign on the dotted line.
I also noted to many people what I read Wednseday on yahoo news that 25 died in Iraq. That was a one line heading on the Internet. I shook my head in disbelief, because that went 'relatively unnoticed' as they continued to cover the VT shooting.
American media is great at hype. Actually, they do cover events quite well, to the point of over coverage. If you want the answers to problems, they will find them eventually.
However, I am not going to spend my time watching news (I rarely watch tv) and wondering what the world is doing. I know it is going to hell. I know hundreds and thousands of people die sometimes daily, some times weekly, sometimes monthly. It has been happening for thousands of years.
Hopefully, Jesus comes soon, because I am tired (even though I am relatively young) of this place.
I am ready to go home.
In the meantime, you and I must do all that we are able to do in order to share the Good News of Christ and be a light on the hill for all of those living in darkness. We have much work to do before He returns, so let us not sit and point fingers, rather lend a helping hand to those that we already know that are in need.
I love every race and color. I hate to see pain and sorrow. I will do my part to show everyone the Way of joy and fulfillment, allowing the Spirit to handle the rest.
Do not worry about what others are doing, seek the Lord in all that you do and then you will be free of judgement.
Anyway...even if half of the world died today, I would still have my joy, in Christ Jesus.
God Bless Your children,
Brian
Brian's: Anyway...even if half of the world died today, I would still have my joy, in Christ Jesus.
This is important, I think. All too often it seems that a Christian is supposed to be in continual mourning about things. Dom's point about folk going to hell is a real eye opener also. Folk in fact are starving to death this very minute in Africa and other parts of the world. Their souls are going out into a Devil's hell. Children are starving and sick. Not just there, but many in the west have disease that cannot be cured no matter how much money is spent.
The joy of the Lord is our strength. How could Paul write a letter about Joy from prison? Diane mentioned the 'big picture' and it is important at times to zoom out. But how will we react to what we see? Sometimes we are late to the party and folk have been grieving over things for a long time and because we don't know they grieve we may well get uptight thinking no one cares. If you think about it everyone seems to feel this pressure at some time or another. I received an e-mail from a man who wanted me to get more involved in the abortion battle. They tried to make me feel like somehow I did no0t care about the 1.5 million babies that die in our country alone every year. The fact is I [u]DO[u]1[u]my
So before we go getting all uptight about how everyone don't seem to care about what we have turned our hearts towards we need to stop and realize that everyone has priorities. God comes first, family second, and ministry third. God called me to certain things and I don't have be on board with everyone else. This is how folk burn out. It is a [i]boundary
Robert, I understand your point. And I apologise for attacking you earlier. Tact's never been my strong point and I hope you can forgive me.
Diane, yes, I'm trying to see through the eyes of Christ in that I'm "trying" to not be a "respector of persons". I'm still working on the "compassion" part - just reading the Bible en masse for now. Thanks for the kind words.
Brian, I'm tired of the world, too. Good thing we're only pilgrims here.
Hi Corey,
It's no problem brother. No hard feelings at all. We are brethren. This is the Father's house (as they say). :-) I came off a bit strong also and apologize for that. I did think a lot about this thread and believe God has used it in part to re-spark an urgency in me for how bad things are getting in the world. I fear we are fast heading towards the violence of Genesis 6. So many have no respect for human life.
RobertW said:
I fear we are fast heading towards the violence of Genesis 6.
And when war comes to North America, nine-trillion in debt and armed to the teeth...
God help us all.
And when war comes to North America, nine-trillion in debt and armed to the teeth...
Amen. The more I look at radical Islam I realize that that smart bombs and high tech machines will not be the savior. The Revelation among other places tells of a war going on in heaven. I don't know how it all works, but it seems like there are things going on in the heavenlies that can only be influenced by prayer and fasting. Daniel found this out and Paul tells is this in Ephesians 6. We are not fighting with flesh and blood here- this is spiritual wickedness in the heavenly realms.
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