Are all Christians the Bride of Christ?

Ravenhill said in one of his sermons that he didn't believe that all Christians would be (or are) the Bride of Christ. That doesn't seem right to me. Is there is anyone here that agrees with Ravenhill? If so, what is your reasoning?

[b]EDIT[/b]

It's on the sermon titled, "Hell No Exits" at about 56:40.

Here is the surrounding context:

"Revelation 21, and verse 7 says, 'He that overcometh shall inherit all things.' You know, we've such sloppy theology [b]'everybody that's saved is gonna be in the bride of Christ' - I don't believe it for a minute. I don't believe that. How did God make a bride for Adam? Did He take all of Adam? He took a part of Adam. And When Jesus comes for the bride He's not coming for every believer I'm sure of that.[/b] What makes us get so arrogant and feel so secure that we're so holy and wonderful? Listen, if you can't stand an extra long sermon, (if you hear me often enough you'll hear them), if you get uncomfortable after an hours preaching what in God's name are you going to do in the millenium?"

Then he goes on to talk about other things.

hmmmm, yes I would agree with everything you said.
However, maybe I didn't make it clear what the question was. Concerning the people who are genuinely saved and going to heaven - will there be a distinction between some who are the Bride of Christ and others who, though still in heaven, are not the Bride of Christ?

That doesn't seem right to me. Is there is anyone here that agrees with Ravenhill?

I heard a similar thing said by a well known preacher/teacher from England back in the 70's, Brother G. W. North - who is now with the Lord. He stated that some believers “won’t be in the Bride.” But personally I have never understood this, nor tried to. Leonard Ravenhill and Brother North were from the same British Holiness background and, therefore, of a similar Holiness persuasion.

Could there be a link here? Is this theological concept derived from British Holiness teaching, or for that matter, Holiness theology in general?

The real question, as has already been commented upon, is 'are all Christians, Christians?'

Just because someone walks an aisle, signs a card, and says they want to ask Jesus into their heart doesn't automatically make them a Christian.

2 Timothy 2:19, "...God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: The Lord knows those who are his, and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."

Here is what Ravenhill meant:

Romans 9:6-8 (Not all of Israel is Israel)
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This statement by Ravenhill is like saying not all Christian churches are actually the body of Christ. God knows who is the real body of Christ.

Church is referred to as many things in the bible:
The Bride, the word makes many mentions of this throughout...not just in Revelation.
As a virgin
As a wife
As children
As lambs
As sheep....and so on.

Ravenhill is simply stating a truth. Yet, we must be carefull that we do not take this statement and apply it to individuals. This decision of who really is a Christian is only answered by God...we should not look into our own congregation and start deciding along with God...this person will not be part of the bride (the church) when Christ comes back.

Our job is to encourage and correct those that are in the "system" as my brother so well put it, and help them to become a part of the virgin bride.

James 4:11-17
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

many times he would give his opinion in his messages (like " a guitar is a backslidden harp")

Ravenhill makes this "tongue-in-cheek" comment in just about every message I've heard. It always elicits laughter. Just like the one about John Wesley at his death leaving behind only a couple of coins, a Geneva gown, some silver spoons...and, umm, something else...I can't seem to remember...oh, yes! the Methodist church!

I don't think his jocular comment on guitars being backslidden harps is meant to be taken over-seriously. We know Ravenhill spiritually supported Keith Green, who used guitars in his music. The comment he made about not all believers being at the Wedding Banquet was based off of Matthew 25 and the parable of the 10 virgins. He simply noted that though all 10 of the women were virgins, 5 actually entered in while the other 5 were shut out of the Bridegroom's feast. The whole thing had to do with distinctions being made in heaven.

I'll try to get the name of the sermon, as I have it on VHS (and it's always a pain trying to find something on VHS).

Brother Paul

Great response...we all should take man's understanding of the word carefully and thoughtfully....no one is to be 100% trusted...we ALL lack perfect understanding.

That's what makes SI so much fun for some and frustrating for others.

Some people believe that they have all the truth and the understanding thereof so they are always frustrated...some people are here to share what they understand up to this season of their lives and are happy just to share.

Can you tell us which sermon this is? It would be good to see the statement in context. Thanks.

I'll try to find it. I believe it was in either "Hell No Exits" or "Judgment Seat of Christ."

It's on the sermon titled, "Hell No Exits" at about 56:40.

Here is the surrounding context:

"Revelation 21, and verse 7 says, 'He that overcometh shall inherit all things.' You know, we've such sloppy theology [b]'[i]everybody that's saved is gonna be in the bride of Christ[/i]' - I don't believe it for a minute. I don't believe that. How did God make a bride for Adam? Did He take all of Adam? He took a part of Adam. And When Jesus comes for the bride He's not coming for every believer I'm sure of that.[/b] What makes us get so arrogant and feel so secure that we're so holy and wonderful? Listen, if you can't stand an extra long sermon, (if you hear me often enough you'll hear them), if you get uncomfortable after an hours preaching what in God's name are you going to do in the millenium?"

Then he goes on to talk about other things.

So after seeing it again in context, I'm still confused :-(
Is he talking about the distinction between true converts and false converts, or the distinction between Christians that are the bride and Christians that arn't the bride?

Nile,

It is not our rigteousness, but Christ's righteousness in us that makes us all a member of the 'Church', and the Church, the total of all of us, is the Bride of Christ.

Revelation 19

1. And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2. For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Those that are saved outside the Church, including all of man that are not saved in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, at the beginning or at the end, pass through the White Throne Judgement, where Christ evaluates their knowledge of God, whether taught by observance of nature alone, or by a Pharisee, or by God Himself in Eden, and their faith and belief in God, and their works, according to their faith.

EDIT: Revelation 20: 11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.EDIT ENDED

These are not works for the sake of works, but, according to what they did know, how well did they treat others, and how did they view God, and reverance Him, even if it was no more than reverential fear of what they did not understand, but knew was greater than themselves.

Blessings,

Forrest

If not all believer's, all that are saved, are now and will be a part of the Bride of Christ? Then who? Who are the special ones? To what level have they attained that get the privilege of being married to Christ?

Based upon the context in which it was said, it is just not true. It was his opinion based upon his own theological/denominational background.

These were my thoughts also. I just wasn't sure if this was some wide-spread view that I hadn't heard about before.

Ah, Krispy,

But what interesting worms they might be!

I don't really know Ravenhill's eschatology, but I know some do not believe all Christians will go in the "rapture" but only those that are "ready." In that view the others "have washed their robes" during the tribulation.

PreachParsly wrote:
I don't really know Ravenhill's eschatology, but I know some do not believe all Christians will go in the "rapture" but only those that are "ready." In that view the others "have washed their robes" during the tribulation.

Preach,

I would make the argument that only those that are watching for the 'Rapture' will go in it, leaving out a lot of Laodiceans, who think they are saved, but are not, because they have never come into relationship with Christ.

I believe that the 'Rapture' is a major wakeup call to the Laodicean Church, of whom some will believe the 'lie', and others will wash their robes in the Tribulation.

Whether the 'Bride of Christ' relates solely to those that were watching, and went up in the 'Rapture', or includes those worthies who are martyred for Christ for not taking the 'Mark', depends greatly on whether you are looking at the 'Wedding Supper of the Lamb' from the viewpoint of 'Earth Time' up to the Rapture, or 'Eternal Time', in which those killed in the Tribulation would go to be with the Lord at the 3 and 1/2 years into the Tribulation, when the 'Mark' is required by the Beast. If you are going from that viewpoint, they would arrive to be with Christ in the middle of the Wedding Supper, but only if the Rapture takes place prior to the Tribulation.

I myself can't imagine Christ differentiating between 'True Christians' now, and 'True Christians' later, since they are all the Church Corporate of Christ, for being in Him, we automatically have salvation, and are judged only for works done with the right motive, and includes a Crown for the Martyrs, which I presume belongs as much to the Martyrs before the Trib and during the Trib.

Of course, this gets so complicated that this is why Krispy said I was opening up a can of worms.

But, I like worms!

Blessings,

Forrest

Mahoney wrote:

Of course, this gets so complicated that this is why Krispy said I was opening up a can of worms.

I thought there was a simplicity in Christ.

There is. Our belief or 'faith-ing' in Him is our 'work', and our belief in Him gains us everything.

How and when it all comes to us is the interesting part.

Blessings,

Forrest

Nile,

All we Christians are the body of the Church, and the Church is the Bride of Christ.

There is no righteousness in any of us. All our righteousness is a gift of God to us through Christ in our redemption through Him, and in Him are all of us made to be His bride.

Anyone who is not a true convert is not a part of the Church, and alas, automatically is destined for Hell if they cannot pass through the fire at the White Throne Judgement, where Christ will decide if, according to what they were taught, and how they sought the face of God, whether they are going to Hell.

Remember that not all who fail to find Christ are denied salvation. It depends on Christ's judgement of their understanding of God as writen in the cosmos, and/or in the Law, if they are Jews.

Back to clarity,

Blessings,

Forrest

Paul seems to have the key to the question here -

II Corinthians 11:2-3 “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

By the way, the Bride is only mentioned FOUR times in Scripture. Once by John the Baptist, three times in The Book of Revelation.

John 3:27-29
“John (the Baptist) answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.”

Revelation 21:2
It is clear that the Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem –
“…I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

Revelation 21:9
The Lamb’s wife – “…there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.”

Revelation 22:17
Who along with the Spirit is saying - “…Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

Thanks for those verses Isleander. I'll have to ponder this some more, but it definitely seems to me that the whole church is the Bride.

Quote: "So then Paul was wrong then, righteousness actually does come through the law...?"

We all know that is wrong. We in Christ Jesus are dead to the Law. Only death comes through the Law. Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

The Lie, you work the works of the law and you will be righteous. Again Satan same old lie, "you will be as gods'". "There is none righteous, no not one." Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Isa 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, [He is] righteous? yea, [there is] none that sheweth, yea, [there is] none that declareth, yea, [there is] none that heareth your words.
Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth [it] to heart: and merciful men [are] taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil [to come].

The Great White Throne Judgment is not the Judgement Seat of Christ, The Great White Throne Judgement is after the tribulation, the Judgement Seat of Christ is before the tribulation or during for the Bride of Christ.

The Scripture has already declared who will be saved.

Romans 3:8-10 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

John 3:15-19 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and though shall be saved. That is Period.

Where does it say that in the Great White Throne Judgement anyone will be saved, It is for Judgement that all might see the Righteousness of God and all, all have no excuse.

The Judgement Seat of Christ is for those that are in Christ, with His Spirit, His Mind, and A Body just like His. This Judgement is to see what we have done with the Christ that is given into us, as those that got the talons of God, some 5, some 1, so what did we do with the Gold of Christ that is in us.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Good or bad in Christ, the bad being far better than the good of Satan and sin. 1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

In Christ, new creatures unto judgment of rewards and reconciliation of Christ unto the world to those that God has prepared to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God:

Phillip

Christinyou wrote:

"So then Paul was wrong then, righteousness actually does come through the law...?"

Phillip

Have you posted your comments in the correct forum? I think this string is intended for "Are all Christians the Bride of Christ."

by Isleander on 2007/4/21 9:14:13

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
"So then Paul was wrong then, righteousness actually does come through the law...?"

Phillip

Have you posted your comments in the correct forum? I think this string is intended for "Are all Christians the Bride of Christ."

I don't understand, I did not write the Quote.

I was answering the quote.

Please clarify your comment. "Have you posted your comments in the correct forum? I think this string is intended for "Are all Christians the Bride of Christ?"

The answer plain: Yes.

The first comment that I did not write of Paul being wrong I hope was a ploy to get all to understand that Paul was right. Righteousness does not come by the Law. It comes to the Bride of Christ by the Bridegroom. 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

In Christ: Phillip

KrispyKrittr wrote:
In reference to Mahoney and Jims' most recent posts... I was wondering how long it would take for those questions to pop up. It took longer than I thought!

;-)

... this is the "can of worms" which I spoke of!

Krispy

Yes, and what excellant worms they are!

As to Mahoney and Jims:

I want as many people in the Church as we can get to come, but if they are not reached before they die, and before Christ returns, I wanted people to know there is a chance for them, but only through the Great White Thone Judgement.

Not my idea of a good way to get into heaven, but there for those we have not reached.

May they at least have seen God in the cosmos, and being weighed in the balance, not be found wanting.

Alas, this includes many children of Abraham, through Jacob's line, that follow the Law, and do not seek Christ for Grace. So few will go into the Millenium, and most (5786 +/- years worth) may be going through that judgement. It rather depends for those before Christ, and who were not witnessed to while Christ was in Hades/Sheol(not Hell).

Besides, I support Missions!

Ah Krispy, do you not see that 'worms' are good food for the mind? All protein to those of us used to Grace, that may need their Bible's opened.

Blessings,

Forrest

I open this thread again because I was having the same question many years ago and I somehow agree with bro. Ravenhill that there is a difference between the Church and the Bride.

Revelation 19:7-8
Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”
It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Question: Who is the bride?
Answer: the one who "has made herself ready."
and
the one who had her clothe ready, bright and clean.

The bride receives her clothe from the Lord but she is the one who is making that clothe with the "righteous acts of the saints."

Search for information about a typical Jew wedding in Bible time. A virgin had to be ready before the marriage ceremony. If she was not ready she was not qualified to be a bride.

more insight on this matter from T.A. Sparks

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=21201

The Calling of the Whole Church

We must dismiss another thing: the idea that the bride is a select company, chosen and appointed to be like this. We must make no such distinction and discrimination between the church given as a whole and the bride. The whole church is called to this ”” that is the revelation of the New Testament; not only some, but the whole church. Whether the whole church will arrive, or arrive at the same time, is an open question, but we are all called to it, every one. This is incumbent upon us all, not merely upon some called "overcomers”, a "bride”, "firstfruits”, and so on. This is the church in view. There may be those who move ahead of others, who go on more rapidly than others, who satisfy the Lord more quickly than others; the others may lag behind and come on afterwards; but whether all attain unto the same glory or not, this is what we are all called to. None of us is excused by any provision made by the Lord. The Lord has not got pigeon-holes already fixed, saying, "We put first-class Christians in there and second-class Christians in there, and provide for them accordingly.” He has only one pigeon-hole in view. If you do not come into it He has not provided a place for you anywhere else, and He has told you that you will lose very much. It is a very serious thing not to answer to Him in the primary way.

The Bride, the Wife of the Lamb

"The bride, the Lamb’s wife.” Do not ask the mechanical question, Who will be in the bridal party? Who will comprise the bride? There again you are mentally dividing things up. I can tell you at once who will be the bride. Not a certain number of people who are called to be the bride, as different from others, but those who come to the bridal position spiritually. They will be the bride, and that is open to everyone. The bride is not a technical term belonging to a certain class, order and section of Christians. It is a spiritual term belonging to a condition, a spiritual state.

"The bride, the Lamb’s wife”, is the term here. "The Lamb’s wife” ”” what does that mean? The Lamb was one who suffered in meekness. "As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth” (Isa. 53:7). The Lamb went that way: the bride will know the fellowship of His sufferings, and must be of the same spirit of meekness. No standing for her own rights, upon her own dignity, asserting her own interests, but letting go to the Lord, in self-emptying and meekness. That is the Lamb, and that is the bride, the Lamb’s wife, taking her character from Him.

The Lamb in the Midst of the Throne

Ah, but there is the other side. There is a Lamb in the midst of the throne. There is the wrath of the Lamb ”” the Lamb shall make war. The mighty "beast” rears himself ”” what a terrific force is represented by the "beast” here. He is let loose in all his ferocity and malignity and evil and mighty power. And then the Lamb makes war and smashes the beast, destroys him. The LAMB does it. There is a mighty power bound up in this weakness. Oh, we have not yet learned the strength of weakness, the strength of emptiness, which means that there is nothing in ourselves but everything in the Lord. When the Lord gets people there, the enemy is afraid; something is going to happen. We can never overcome the enemy while we are standing up for our own rights, while we are in any way defending our own interests, looking after our own name, being something or trying to be something or hold on to something. The enemy laughs at us, breaks us. When we know that meekness of the Lamb, the meekness of Jesus Christ, then the enemy’s power is going to be weakened and destroyed. These are principles in the book.

The wife of the Lamb is going to be with Him in His throne. Let us dismiss the symbolism and grasp the principle and the spiritual meaning. It is absolute ascendency in Heaven over all the forces of the earth and hell, vested in the Lamb, and conferred upon His bride, the Lamb’s wife. It is the mighty power of a yielded life, the mighty power of weakness of the right kind ”” that is, of dependence, conscious dependence upon the Lord.