Predestination

Sometimes I just wonder:

Is it possible to stand against the will of God, or is even that human process de facto already preordianed by God?

Think about Saul and Judas who in their sinfullness carried out the will of God (if Saul did not fell from grace David would'nt have been the King; if Judas did'nt fulfill the prophesy in the psalms Jesus would'nt have been betrayed in total accord with Scripture.

M :-o

Take a look at the crucifiction of Jesus.

Acts 2:22-23 says, "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

God predetermined before the world began that Jesus would die on the cross. This means that is is not possible for Jesus to die any other way at all regardless of anything man does.

Does this mean man is not responsible? Of course not, all those men involved will be judged by the just God.

I agree - but still: it is troublesome for the intellect to grasp (and sometimes even for the heart).

Luther's biggest doubts concerning his own status as saved man was sometimes that he was afraid of not being counted among the few elected (as Saint Augustine would have put it) for the Kingdom of God.

Jesus own teaching points to this: a few saved contra many who would be lost.

Magnus

:-o

We do not have to worry about whether or not we have been elected. The Bible is clear that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and whosoever will may come freely.

Election is a blessing, not a curse.

That's for sure! But the flipside of that coin is eternal damnation for those who do not live in communion with Lord Jesus Christ and has the seal of the Holy Spirit (ie. Born Again/ from above).

Magnus :-o

Mangan wrote:
Sometimes I just wonder:
Is it possible to stand against the will of God, or is even that human process de facto already preordianed by God?

Satan did in his rebelion.
Adan & Eve did when they ate of the Tree.

Yes that's a matter of fact! But we have to take the whole counsel of God (ie. the whole biblical perspective)in account. Saint Augustine did that and postulated: the two wills of God

a. the will to save everyone
b. the will to save only those who are predestined to be saved.

Augustine made his postulation because of the ambiguity of Scripture on the subject (which is nothing strange given the case of different authors formating the Scriptures over time).

Magnus

:-x

II Peter 3:9 is a beautiful verse that demonstrates the love of God.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Some people emphasize the words 'not willing' and say that God is so patient and not willing that any person in the world perish that he is waiting for all men to come to repentance. But this is not really what the verse is saying.

I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone, but take a closer look at the verse.

To whom is God longsuffering? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved mentioned in verse 8. "But, beloved"

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you."

To whom is Peter writing this letter? Those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ--Christians.
2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say about the intended audience? 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Peter is not saying in this verse that God is patient with all men hoping that every person comes to repentance. Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish before the second coming and that all of the elect come to repentance.

Jay
I basically agree with your exegesis; but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect? There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.

Magnus

:-D

Ezekiel 18:23-32

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God did predestinate us for His purpose. Read the story of creation in Genesis.

Gen 1:26
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

God chose to create a creature after His own likeness for His good pleasure, for His good works before the foundations of the earth.

We all go astray as did Adam and Eve...our fleshly parents and we are consumed by sin.

However, Praise God...

Romans 5:18
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

However there is a stipulation to receiving this wonderful gift of grace...the same stipulation that justified Abraham, and cursed Israel in the wilderness...

Hebrews 2
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation

Hebrews 3:17-19
17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

In conclusion it is my understanding through the Word that God did predestinate mankind for His glory when He created us.

Yet because of our sin we destroyed that releationship God intended. But God being full of grace and love made a way to re-establish this relationship with Him through Jesus. If we believe that God grace is available for us (land of milk and honey) then we will step into a right relationship with Him made available by Him we will have access by this faith through the Holy Spirit and only through the Holy Spirit preserving us.

Jay
I basically agree with your exegesis; but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect? There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.

Magnus[/quote

You are correct. All who are foreknown by God will be justified. This is similar to John 6:39-40, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Thanks Jay, for your answer.

Magnus :-D

Krispy! Me too. The doctrine of predestination is a stumbling block for the mind (reason)but I still believe it to be accurate and according to Scripture.

It is to often our emotions that get in our way when we deal with issues of predestination or Grace (sola Gratia).

Magnus ;-)

Mangan wrote:
There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.

I try to keep this issue quite simple. Here's a little illustration:

Let's say you watch a movie, and someone dies near the end. At the start of the move, he's happily living out his life, and then all of a sudden, his life is over. Rewind the movie, and he's happy again. No matter how much you scream out at the screen, "Look out!! You're going to die at the end of the movie!!", he continues on, blissfully unaware, until the end of the movie.

God has his elect, but it is not so much a matter of God "not letting His elect perish" as "His elect NOT perishing". Do you see the difference? The latter is simply a fact, while the former paints God out to be busily putting out "spot fires" just in case one of His elect will perish. He is in control from the start to the finish.

But, you may ask, does that mean that we don't need to preach, because His elect will be saved anyway? Well, my response to you would be that if you are only preaching the gospel in order to "rescue lost souls", then you have missed the point. Preach in order to obey your King. It is not our job to "save the lost" but only to "warn of judgement" and "point to Jesus". This is His "chosen means". God alone saves souls. The point isn't that "sinners don't go to hell" but that "many sons be brought to glory".

Who are the elect? The ones that He saves. End of story. Are they foreordained? Of course, just as Christ's sacrifice was ordained "before the foundation of the world". But what if Adam and Eve didn't sin? But they did, didn't they, so why even ask the question?

The difficulties only come in when we try to fill in gaps that God has put in place, by speculating on things that might have been, but weren't. People have compared God's created order to a orchestral symphony. Imagine if someone filled in all the "rests" in "Fur Elise"? Somehow I don't think that it would sound as impressive.

And, by the way, Krispy... this is the secret of cutting down you paracetamol bill :-P

[size=xx-small][b]God has his elect, but it is not so much a matter of God "not letting His elect perish" as "His elect NOT perishing". Do you see the difference? The latter is simply a fact, while the former paints God out to be busily putting out "spot fires" just in case one of His elect will perish. He is in control from the start to the finish.[/b][/size]

Whats the big difference God is still the One who predestine? Explain? Are you describing an active God or a passive One?

Magnus :-(

but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect?

I have often wondered if all or most of the questions concerning predestination could be cleared up by looking at the circumstances that existed in the 1st century. 1900+ years later or even in Augustines time, the Church had long since moved away from Jerusalem and it had become 'normal' for Gentiles to believe and 'abnormal' for Jews to believe.

When the Temple was destroyed the Pharisees fled to Jamnia and started what would eventually become Rabbinic Judaism. There is a clear attempt from this point to disconnect totally from any Jewish person who believed in Jesus Christ. They even began a curse towards them in their daily prayers . Before this time mainly Jews were what comprised the Church; but as many rejected Christ and some beat Paul and others (as Jesus said they would) a feeling developed that all Jews reject Jesus and Gentiles accept Him. But during the New Testament period it was still believed that the Jews were Abraham's Seed and they made no bones about that. They preached and believed that THEY were the elect of God by birth right.

Then come the Gentiles into the Church and have to deal with the teachings of the Jews that no doubt harassed the early Church on the right hand and the left. It became necessary to demonstrate the true nature of 'election'. Election is "IN HIM."

Ephesians 1:4-5:

4. According as he hath chosen us [u]in him[/u] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [u]by Jesus Christ to himself[/u], according to the good pleasure of his will,

Verse 6 also states, "In the beloved." We are chosen "in Him" and our predestination is "by Jesus Christ to Himself" so that we might be accepted "in the beloved." The key here is "in Christ" and the plan was from the foundation of the World.

This was a necessary teaching to bring correction to the Jews claiming their status as Abraham's Seed all the time. Jesus said that God of stones could raise up children unto Abraham. It is not hard to lay claim to something by natural birth; but the Kingdom is not entered by first birth, but by second birth. When we are born again of the Spirit and thereby baptized 'INTO' Jesus Christ we become one of the elect of God. Christ was the Chosen One and we, being 'in Him' are partakers of that chosen-ness. Gentiles did not come into the Kingdom because God had to have a backup plan. Romans tells us clearly that it was for to provoke the Jews to jealousy. God had already figured this all our before the foundation of the world.

So we as the Gentiles are not 'plan b'. We are all part of 'plan a' to deliver humanity from the clutches of sin and share in the inheritance of Christ. There was only ever one God- the God of the Jews and the God of the Gentiles. He was the God of the Gentiles all along. This is made clear in Romans 1-3 as some responded rightly to the voice of conscience and the Law written on their heart. That which was called 'uncircumcision' by that which is called the Circumcision- was in reality the [u]true[/u] 'Circumcision.' Why? Because they did the Lord's will though they were branded as 'dogs' or 'Gentiles' (The Goyim). And the [u]True Circumcision[/u] as far as God was concerned judged the ones who had the promises and had been entrusted with the Oracles of God because they did not walk in the light that they knew. Like Jesus told the people, "If the mighty works which are done here had been done in Nineveh they would have repented in sackloth and ashes." They did not respond rightly to the light of the Law, conscience, written on their heart or the host of oracles and miracles intended to bring them to saving faith.

So teaching on predesdination when seen rightly are not so much as many have supposed; they were necessary teaching in a time that we cannot relate to. So when we try to understand them in our context we get all confused. But they made perfect sense to the Gentiles in Paul's day and they did not cause the Theological uproar and assaults on God's character that they often do today. We have to ask, "who was these statements [i]originally[/i] written to? When we understand that we can grasp what was happening without going off the deep end.

Mangan wrote:
Whats the big difference God is still the One who predestine? Explain? Are you describing an active God or a passive One?

Both, and then some... :-)

RobertW

So teaching on predesdination when seen rightly are not so much as many have supposed; they were necessary teaching in a time that we cannot relate to. So when we try to understand them in our context we get all confused. But they made perfect sense to the Gentiles in Paul's day and they did not cause the Theological uproar and assaults on God's character that they often do today. We have to ask, "who was these statements originally written to? When we understand that we can grasp what was happening without going off the deep end.

Thank you for posting this.

How often do you find this to be the case?

Have we always had this tendency to over analyze, or is it more in modern times?

RobertW
interesting point!

The problem with the Eph. text is that we still count it as containing the inerrant word of God.

Still the problem is that there are a lot of people who is not in Christ and a lot who never will be.

The reality of predestination still remains..

Magnus :-o

Magnus wrote:

The problem with the Eph. text is that we still count it as containing the inerrant word of God.

Could you please explain?

TJ! The problem is not the Word of God but the reality of predestination which exists, if the word of God is true (which I myself believe).

Magnus ;-)

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
But, you may ask, does that mean that we don't need to preach, because His elect will be saved anyway? Well, my response to you would be that if you are only preaching the gospel in order to "rescue lost souls", then you have missed the point. Preach in order to obey your King. It is not our job to "save the lost" but only to "warn of judgement" and "point to Jesus". This is His "chosen means". God alone saves souls. The point isn't that "sinners don't go to hell" but that "many sons be brought to glory".

Reminds me of a story R.C. Sproul once told about a time in seminary when his professor brought up the Election vs Evangelism issue:

I remember, in this regard, a most discomforting experience I had while I was a
seminary student. And I was in a seminar studying Jonathan Edwards’ work The
Freedom of the Will. And I believe there were twenty-two of us in that class, and the
professor had us arranged in a semi-circle in front of his desk. And he enjoyed the
Socratic method of teaching. He called it dia-lecture; he lectured, we died, because he
would constantly grill us and put us on the spot and ask us difficult questions.

On this one day he said to us “All right, gentlemen, if it is true, that God, from all eternity, has chosen to save certain people and not others, then why should we be visibly involved in the task of evangelism?”

Now I breathed a great sigh of relief because I happened to be sitting at the extreme right-hand side of the semi-circle of students and he started to ask the students on the extreme left-hand side and his custom would be to go right down the line, so I knew that there would be twenty-one people who would get to wrestle with the question before he would ever get to me; and I was delighted that I had that safety cushion. And so he started with the first student.

He said: “Mr. So-and-so, if the doctrine of divine election is true, why should we be involved in evangelism?”

The student candid replied “Professor, I don’t know! I’ve always wondered about that myself.”

He went to the next fellow in the line: “What do you think?”

That fellow shrugged his shoulders and said, “Beats me.” All of a sudden, it was getting more and more scary as he went down the line, asking each student, and each one of them could not provide an earthly answer.

Finally, the finger pointed at me. Now, I have to this, I hope you don’t take it wrong: there were certain times in seminary when my fellow students looked to me to bail them out in these theory, difficult things; they assigned to me the role that Plato had assigned to Socrates in The Dialogues when all of these questions would be raised, everybody would give their answer and in the end Socrates would sort it all out, so I was feeling more and more pressure as the professor came closer to me and finally descended on me asking “Alright Mr. Sproul, if God ordains from all of eternity certain people to be saved, why should we be engaged in evangelism?”

I was really nervous and said rather meekly, “well professor, I know this isn’t what
you’re looking for, it’s not a big reason, but one reason after all for why we should still be involved in evangelism is, well…” and I stammered and stuttered “…y’know God does command us to do it, doesn’t he?”

The professor went ballistic.

He started to play with me and mock me – in a nice way of course - and he said “Yes, Mr. Sproul, and what could possibly be a [i]smaller[/i] thing than that! That the Lord God almighty who is omnipotent who reigns should command you to do [i]something[/i] or [i]anything[/i]. Or that the Lord who shed his blood for your sins should command [i]you[/i] to take some credibility to the task because he did you soul and you may want to top your hat to him in this enterprise…”

And he went on, and on and on and I just felt smaller and smaller.

But he said, “Of course! That’s a reason enough for the church to be involved in evangelism!”

It's funny, last Thursday for a small-group discussion, the topic I was given was the relationship between Isaac, Jacob and Esau. It was prophesied that Jacob would receive the Lord's blessing, yet look at how this was achieved:

[i]1When Isaac was old and his eyes were dim so that he could not see, he called Esau his older son and said to him, "My son"; and he answered, "Here I am." 2He said, "Behold, I am old; I do not know the day of my death. 3Now then, take your weapons, your quiver and your bow, and go out to the field and hunt game for me, 4and prepare for me delicious food, such as I love, and bring it to me so that I may eat, that my soul may bless you before I die."

5Now Rebekah was listening when Isaac spoke to his son Esau. So when Esau went to the field to hunt for game and bring it, 6Rebekah said to her son Jacob, "I heard your father speak to your brother Esau, 7'Bring me game and prepare for me delicious food, that I may eat it and bless you before the LORD before I die.' 8Now therefore, my son, obey my voice as I command you. 9Go to the flock and bring me two good young goats, so that I may prepare from them delicious food for your father, such as he loves. 10And you shall bring it to your father to eat, so that he may bless you before he dies." 11But Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, "Behold, my brother Esau is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man. 12Perhaps my father will feel me, and I shall seem to be mocking him and bring a curse upon myself and not a blessing." 13His mother said to him, "Let your curse be on me, my son; only obey my voice, and go, bring them to me."

14So he went and took them and brought them to his mother, and his mother prepared delicious food, such as his father loved. 15Then Rebekah took the best garments of Esau her older son, which were with her in the house, and put them on Jacob her younger son. 16And the skins of the young goats she put on his hands and on the smooth part of his neck. 17And she put the delicious food and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.

18So he went in to his father and said, "My father." And he said, "Here I am. Who are you, my son?" 19Jacob said to his father, "I am Esau your firstborn. I have done as you told me; now sit up and eat of my game, that your soul may bless me." 20But Isaac said to his son, "How is it that you have found it so quickly, my son?" He answered, "Because the LORD your God granted me success." 21Then Isaac said to Jacob, "Please come near, that I may feel you, my son, to know whether you are really my son Esau or not." 22So Jacob went near to Isaac his father, who felt him and said, "The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau." 23And he did not recognize him, because his hands were hairy like his brother Esau's hands. So he blessed him. 24He said, "Are you really my son Esau?" He answered, "I am." 25Then he said, "Bring it near to me, that I may eat of my son's game and bless you." So he brought it near to him, and he ate; and he brought him wine, and he drank.

26Then his father Isaac said to him, "Come near and kiss me, my son." 27So he came near and kissed him. And Isaac smelled the smell of his garments and blessed him and said,

"See, the smell of my son
is as the smell of a field that the LORD has blessed!
28May God give you of the dew of heaven
and of the fatness of the earth
and plenty of grain and wine.
29Let peoples serve you,
and nations bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may your mother's sons bow down to you.
Cursed be everyone who curses you,
and blessed be everyone who blesses you!"

30As soon as Isaac had finished blessing Jacob, when Jacob had scarcely gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, Esau his brother came in from his hunting. 31He also prepared delicious food and brought it to his father. And he said to his father, "Let my father arise and eat of his son's game, that you may bless me." 32His father Isaac said to him, "Who are you?" He answered, "I am your son, your firstborn, Esau." 33Then Isaac trembled very violently and said, "Who was it then that hunted game and brought it to me, and I ate it all before you came, and I have blessed him? Yes, and he shall be blessed." 34As soon as Esau heard the words of his father, he cried out with an exceedingly great and bitter cry and said to his father, "Bless me, even me also, O my father!" 35But he said, "Your brother came deceitfully, and he has taken away your blessing." 36Esau said, "Is he not rightly named Jacob? For he has cheated me these two times. He took away my birthright, and behold, now he has taken away my blessing." Then he said, "Have you not reserved a blessing for me?" 37Isaac answered and said to Esau, "Behold, I have made him lord over you, and all his brothers I have given to him for servants, and with grain and wine I have sustained him. What then can I do for you, my son?" 38Esau said to his father, "Have you but one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O my father." And Esau lifted up his voice and wept.

39Then Isaac his father answered and said to him:

"Behold, away from the fatness of the earth shall your dwelling be,
and away from the dew of heaven on high.
40By your sword you shall live,
and you shall serve your brother;
but when you grow restless
you shall break his yoke from your neck."[/i]
[b]Genesis 27:1-40 (English Standard Version)[/b]

I have to admit that while I personally lean more towards the 5-points of Calvinism (though not necessarily Calvin's taching in of itself as I haven't read much of his own works), this passage left me stumped regarding just how God's will is achieved.

One of the guys in the group said "Doesn't it say in Romans 'Jacob I loved, Esau I hated'?"
I had the group turn to [b]Romans 9:10-18[/b]:
[i]10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.[/i]

At that point, another person asked me "...but Ben, doesn't God love everyone?"
I asked for a minute to think it through. "...Well, God is also Holy and Just; he hates sin. John 3:18 says [i]'whoever believes not is condemned already'[/i]. We are born as objects of wrath, yet through Christ we become subjects of mercy. By default, God would be more than just to hate us because we are desrving of his contempt. God is under absolutely no obligation to love anyone. If he loves us, it's purely because [i]he[/i] chooses to."
Another person asked: "So how do we know if we're loved or hated by God?"
I simply replied: "You're saved aren't you?"

The problem with the Eph. text is that we still count it as containing the inerrant word of God.

Yes and the first question we have to ask ourselves is who was this God breathed text written to. Deuteronomy is inspired, but I have to learn how it applies to me today and where it fits in the overall scheme of things.

Still the problem is that there are a lot of people who is not in Christ and a lot who never will be.

This is true but God has already determined how predestination comes about. It is up to us to rightly decide how we respond to the light we are given.

Rom 9:7

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

This relates to my earlier point. The Jews believed that because they were Abraham's seed that they all were going to heaven no matter what.

Rom 9:8

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Who are the children of the promise? What is the promise? [u]Who[/u] is the Promise? It is the promise made to Abraham of the people of God's ultimate deliverance from Sin and Satan- symbolized in the deliverance of the Children of Israel from the hand of Pharaoh (a type of Satan) and Egypt (a type of Sin). Joshua is the same as 'Jesus'- Joshua was a 'type' of Jesus. But clearly Joshua did not lead the people out of the power of Satan and Sin and into the power of God.

Acts 13:18-23
And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

23 [u]Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:[/u]
KJV

Jesus is the 'who' of the Promise and [i]deliverance[/i] from Sin and Satan is the 'what'. The final and ultimate expression of the Promise is the hope of the resurrection. It will be at the resurrection that it will be made known who are in Christ and who are not. Some will go to the resurrection of life and others to the resurrection of damnation. This is the 'promise' for which Paul was accused of the Jews (Acts 26:6).

Paul was telling us in Romans that the 'promise' was not given by birth right. Folk were not born in the full expression of the promise. It had to be manifest in the individual regardless of their being Abraham's seed or not. Actually Abraham's 'true' seed are those who are the heirs to the righteousness of God by faith. They simply 'believe God' and it is imputed to them for righteousness.

Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

God here establishes who the 'seed' are. This is the same as saying the 'elect'. The seed are those who trust God with all their eggs in one basket. 100% trust in Him for their salvation; i.e. their part and portion of the promise.

Rom 9:7-9

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, [u]In Isaac shall thy seed be called.[/u]

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are [u]not[/u] the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

The children of the flesh are those who believe they are saved by the Covenant at Sinai. This covenant is called 'Hagar' in Galatians. It came first just like Ishmael. It was not the promise- the New Covenant is.

Gal 4:24-29

These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written:

"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

[u]Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.[/u] (from New International Version)

God called and you responded in faith. Not that you were born and already the children of the promise- for that would negate the call [i]and[/i] the response. Does God have the right to establish this as His method of delivering on His promise? Depends on your perspective. If you believed God 'owed' you the promise based upon something you believe He said, but that you actually misunderstood you would likely say "yes there is unrighteousness with God!" But is there?

Rom 9:9-11
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

God is now refining again who is going to continue to represent the 'type' of the Seed (Elect). Paul lets us know it is not going to be a decision based on how 'good' or 'bad' the person is- but strictly an act of God's grace and mercy. This is a prelude to Ephesians 2:8. It is not your right to be the Elect by birthright and it is not your right for being a 'good' person. It is strictly God's goodness in every case.

Rom 9:15-16

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We will come to see that God used people as types and shadows also in a way to warn us about hardening our hearts. This is mentioned twice in Hebrews; "TODAY if you will hear His voice- harden not your hearts." Hardening of the heart is the result of resisting the Holy Ghost and His influence upon it. Our part is making God unwelcome and not liking to retain Him in our knowledge. God hardens our hearts when He removes that influence, as Romans 1 and 2 tells us He 'gave them over' to a depraved mind. Some he allows to exist in this state longer than others and even wax exceedingly hardened. Why? To accomplish His purpose. This is God's sovereign perogative. It's His mercy that we are not consumed in the first place so if He through His longsuffering facilitates the rebellion of the vessels of wrath - it is for His purpose and not for us to question. Some would complain that God wanted Pharoah to do what He did and that in reality Pharoah was doing God's will- therefor God should not find fault. But this attitude fails to realize that Pharaoh was what He was and God uses vessels of wrath for His purposes- including Satan and His demons. He uses them in their rebellion.

Rom 9:17-18

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

We already said who gets 'hardened' and why. This is not an arbitrary decision on God's part- but His response to our response to Him. What about showing mercy? Does God just randomly select people to show mercy to? He has already told us who gets mercy:

Eph 2:4-5

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Now we see who it is that God will show mercy to whom he will show mercy. It is those who are saved by Grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). Not of works and not of birthright. Is that fair? Again, it depends on which side of the 'seed' factor you fall into. If you are The Seed by grace through faith- you are excited and praise God- but if you expect God to fulfill a promise He never made by saving you just because you were born a Jew- you may well want to contend with God or stone the messenger or both.

The results?

Rom 9:25-26

As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The issue of election has never been about the 'who' but the 'how'. God has given us the criteria for who the Seed (elect) are. God sovereignly established the process by which man is saved and we cannot resist it. The Seed are those who are 'In Christ' whether they are Jew or Gentile. This is God's purpose in election and the means by which He brought it about.

I think we need to define some terms before we continue:
Election - the sovereign act of God by which He chooses certain people to receive grace. This grace does not depend upon anything good or bad a person has done, is doing, or will do.
Predestination - the determination of God made before the world began concerning who would be adopted as sons, be conformed to the image of Christ that is based according to the counsel of God's will alone.
Calling - The divine calling of God in which He summons the person in darkness and dead in sins to life eternal through Jesus. According to Romans 8:30 this calling always results in justification. This calling is given through the gospel preaching and teaching but is not given by men, but by the Holy Spirit.

RobertW wrote:

So teaching on predesdination when seen rightly are not so much as many have supposed; they were necessary teaching in a time that we cannot relate to.

I disagree, we are not discussing something like 'headcoverings' we are discussing God's election. This is a topic that we can and should relate to.

The issue of election has never been about the 'who' but the 'how'. God has given us the criteria for who the Seed (elect) are. God sovereignly established the process by which man is saved and we cannot resist it. The Seed are those who are 'In Christ' whether they are Jew or Gentile. This is God's purpose in election and the means by which He brought it about.

Robert, thank you for taking the time to clearly state your belief on predestination. You used a lot of words to state, 'You choose God before God chooses you.' This is what I gather from your posts.

We choose God before He chooses us sounds nice, but is it biblical?

You said that the issue of election has never been about the 'who' but the 'how'. It is true that God has clearly stated for us all the method in which salvation comes (by Grace through Faith), but if election is simply the 'how' and not the 'who' then scripture is wrong and misleading.

For example, Let's say I have a twin brother. Both of us have the same parents, same education, same friends, practically idential in every way. Neither one of us grew up in church but one of our friends invited both of us to a revival. We both hear the same message and at the end of the service, my brother walks forward, convicted of his sins and has faith in Jesus. Now, I think he has lost his mind and I am unconvinced about this Jesus fellow.

Now, according to your defition of election: Who was elected and why? Obviously my brother is elected, but let's look at the why a moment. My brother was elected because he did something that I didn't. Therefore the only difference between myself and my brother is something good that he did, which was believing in Jesus. This example can and does happen, but the truth of the situation is that God called my brother to repentance and not me. In other words, while we both heard the gospel preached (external by man) only my brother heard the diving calling (internal by the Spirit) which always results in justification.

But what does the scripture say about election? Romans 9:11, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;"

Election occurs before a person is even born and it includes actual persons being elected before they are even born. Another example is in Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Election is more than a 'how' it is a 'whom', For whom He did foreknow.

Robert, thank you for taking the time to clearly state your belief on predestination. You used a lot of words to state, 'You choose God before God chooses you.' This is what I gather from your posts.

We respond to God as He calls. God chose the method by which He would save man.

We choose God before He chooses us sounds nice, but is it biblical?

God chose to call and we chose to answer. We respond to the contact He initiates. I am not saving we went looking for God and found Him. I am saying He called and we answer. Our answer determines whether or not we will be in Christ or not.

You said that the issue of election has never been about the 'who' but the 'how'. It is true that God has clearly stated for us all the method in which salvation comes (by Grace through Faith), but if election is simply the 'how' and not the 'who' then scripture is wrong and misleading.

It would be more clear for me to say it is about 'how' the 'who' are the Seed (the elect). Not by works and not by birthright. It is by the Promise. The Promise is clearly revealed through various types and shadows in the Old Testament. The finality of that this side of eternity is the resurrection.

This example can and does happen, but the truth of the situation is that God called my brother to repentance and not me. In other words, while we both heard the gospel preached (external by man) only my brother heard the diving calling (internal by the Spirit) which always results in justification.

If this is true the preacher is telling lies by suggesting that [i]whosoever will[/i] can come and drink of the waters of life freely. The call to 'come' is made of none effect by this tradition. It is an insincere call to preach the Gospel to a people who have no way of responding. If one responded and the other did not it is because the one hardened his heart and the other did not. Hebrews warns us twice to respond when we hear. While it is said TODAY if you will hear His voice harden not your hearts. There is a clear choice here involved if words have any meaning.

Therefore the only difference between myself and my brother is something good that he did, which was believing in Jesus.

If it is to be suggested that man's response to God in faith is either 'good' or 'works' I do not contend. There is something that God has required man to do in the salvation of his/her soul and that something is [i]faith[/i]. It may good that a man responded rightly but God is not saving the man because he is 'good' or did something 'good' but because he responded rightly in faith.

But what does the scripture say about election? Romans 9:11, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;"

They were not yet born therefor it cannot be said to be by birthright. They had done neither good or evil therefore it is not given to those who are 'good'. It is not because we inherited salvation or earned salvation it is by grace that we are saved through faith.

Election occurs before a person is even born and it includes actual persons being elected before they are even born. Another example is in Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Election is more than a 'how' it is a 'whom', For whom He did foreknow.

The parallel to this passage is Ephesians 2:9. We are His workmanship created [u]in Christ Jesus[/u] unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Whether or not God foreknew who would be in Christ does not change the process by which the Seed are counted as the Seed (i.e. the elect are elected). It is not an arbitrary decision but one in which a person responds in faith and comes to baptism into Christ. It is 'in Christ; that we have all the riches that belong to The Seed (The Elect). Christ is 'The' Seed. We are in him and are counted for the seed.

Anyone got any tylenol?

:-) I'l listening to the messages on Calvinism from your link.

God chose to call and we chose to answer. We respond to the contact He initiates. I am not saving we went looking for God and found Him. I am saying He called and we answer. Our answer determines whether or not we will be in Christ or not.

Let me stop right here. Does God call and we not answer? I ask you to answer considering Romans 8:29-30, "29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Everyone called is justified. This is not reading into the verse, it is taking the verse at face value. There is a logical progression in these verses as follows:
1. God foreknew certain people
2. Those God foreknew He also predestined.
3. Those God foreknew and predestined He also called.
4. Those God foreknew and predestined and called He also justified.
5. Those God foreknew and predestined and called and justified He also glorified.

If this is true the preacher is telling lies by suggesting that whosoever will can come and drink of the waters of life freely.

When the preacher says, "Whosoever will" he is telling the truth because he is affirming that salvation is for all who desire Christ and all who are being called by Christ. This is not a lie. It is God who works in us to will and to do his good pleasure.

It may good that a man responded rightly but God is not saving the man because he is 'good' or did something 'good' but because he responded rightly in faith.

Here is my point, it is good that man responds in faith. But, the bible is clear that the 'good' is not the basis of our receiving salvation. God chose us apart from anything good He knew we would do...that includes faith. God did not look through history to see who would respond in faith and then elect those. If this is true then God would be basing His election on something good we did.

The truth is that God chose us when we were fallen and dead in our sins. God had mercy on us not because of anything we do. The basis for our salvation is God's mercy alone.

We do respond in faith, faith is the channel through which we receive the salvation, but it is not the basis for our election. If it was, it would void the biblical definition of election.

You position forces you to say that faith is not a 'good thing that we do', but in fact it is a great thing we do.

Everyone called is justified.

Then how do you reackon with:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [u]For many are called, but few are chosen.[/u] (Matthew 22)

Many are called but few are chosen . Few have the necessary garment. It is not enough merely to be called as those who arrived at the wedding were 'called'. They also needs to be chosen. The chosen were those who had the wedding garment. This is clearly a reference to those that are 'in' Christ. But then we have an interesting and important third step:

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev. 17:14)

So the progression is called + chosen + faithful.

The parallel to this passage is Ephesians 2:9. We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Whether or not God foreknew who would be in Christ does not change the process by which the Seed are counted as the Seed (i.e. the elect are elected). It is not an arbitrary decision but one in which a person responds in faith and comes to baptism into Christ. It is 'in Christ; that we have all the riches that belong to The Seed (The Elect). Christ is 'The' Seed. We are in him and are counted for the seed.

Are you saying that God ordained works for those in Christ to do, but did not ordain anyone to do them?

God chose us apart from anything good He knew we would do...that includes faith.

If this is true then what are we to make of Ephesians 2:8 that tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is a gift of God, but it is received when we live by faith. This is what Abraham found and was the basis of God referring to him as His Friend.

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22)

Since scripture interprets scripture and scripture cannot be incorrect then the contradiction must be in our understanding.

The many called in Matthew are those who are called by the external preaching of the gospel by man. Those who are chosen are those who are called by the internal working of the Holy Spirit. By the way, if we choose God before He chooses us, then why does He refer to us as the chosen?

If this is true then what are we to make of Ephesians 2:8 that tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is a gift of God, but it is received when we live by faith. This is what Abraham found and was the basis of God referring to him as His Friend.

Faith in the channel in which we receive the salvation. We must have faith, but God does not base His election and predestination upon our faith. It is God who has mercy on those whom He has mercy and we have been predestined before the creation of the world. Foreknowledge is based upon the counsel of God's will...not ours.

Are you saying that God ordained works for those in Christ to do, but did not ordain anyone to do them?

There is a 'work' that we are to do that is distinguished from what is commonly understood as works:

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)

We are to rest from our own works as we rest in Christ (Hebrews 4). But that rest is not a rest from believing and trusting in Christ. That would be to over extend the meaning of what God said. We don't work the works of the Law- our work is to rest (i.e. believe in Christ).

We must have faith, but God does not base His election and predestination upon our faith. It is God who has mercy on those whom He has mercy and we have been predestined before the creation of the world. Foreknowledge is based upon the counsel of God's will...not ours.

We described earlier who were counted for the seed. I can't improve upon that here. Just re-refer to it.

There is a 'work' that we are to do that is distinguished from what is commonly understood as works:

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)

You quoted Ephesians 2:10 in which we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. You also state that Jesus does not choose us until we have faith. So I asked, "Did God ordain works to be done by those who are in Jesus without ordaining anyone to be in Jesus?"

Those who are chosen are those who are called by the internal working of the Holy Spirit. By the way, if we choose God before He chooses us, then why does He refer to us as the chosen?

God chose us because of Christ. Christ is The Seed. If we are in Him we are the seed because we are partakers of that with Him. Salvation is Christocentric. When we get our eyes off that we move into error. The Promise is to the Seed; which is Christ. If we are in Him we are counted for the seed. Not by birthright and not by good works. We are in Him by grace [i]through[/i] faith.

You also state that Jesus does not choose us until we have faith. So I asked, "Did God ordain works to be done by those who are in Jesus without ordaining anyone to be in Jesus?

Anyone that is truly "in Christ" should by nature work the works of Christ. That is the beginning and the end of the ordination.

We described earlier who were counted for the seed. I can't improve upon that here. Just re-refer to it.

We agree that those who are in Christ are counted as sons of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. We agree that apart from Christ there is no claim to the promises God made.

What we disagree on is how one gets into the Seed. You say God calls everyone equally and those who respond in faith are counted as the Seed.
I say that while the gospel goes out to all people, it is God who internally calls those whom He has chosen to be in Christ.

Jesus Himself backs this up in John 17:
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Who gave the believers to Jesus?

Anyone that is truly "in Christ" should by nature work the works of Christ. That is the beginning and the end of the ordination.

What you are saying is that God brought Christ to this world, He died, was raised to life and God foreordained works to be done by those in Christ. But the problem is that Christ's death did not actually secure redemption for anyone. Christ's death did not actually save anyone. Your position says that at the point of Christ's death it was possible for no one to be in Christ because it all depends on whether or not man will have faith.

But as we all know that is not correct. Take a look at the disciples, look at Paul. God had men prepared and ready to receive the promised Holy Spirit. It is God who works in us to will and to work according to His good pleasure.

Now, don't get me wrong I am not saying we are robots. We are all responsible for our own fate, but our salvation does not depend upon what we do whether good or bad.

Who gave the believers to Jesus?

Wow this feels like a tennis match. ;-) The scripture says the Father gave them to Him. But we read on that 'they are thine'.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18)

All souls belong to God. This is why God is ultimately doing with His creation as He wills. But He has revealed to us the basis on which He will make choices concerning those that belong to Him. For some- He gave them to Christ. For others He gave them to the flames. But it is not just an arbitrary choice. It was a choice that He made based upon our response to His grace. If this were not true then there is no need to even understand the Gospel. No need to explain it. But God has left us a record in order that we might understand the basis upon which He will do with what is His; both the seed and those who are rejected.

it suggests that all we need do is claim the salvation of Christ at our deathbeds and everything will be okay between us and GOD.

There has at times been a reluctance to preach true justification by faith for fear of abuse of the doctrine and sin that grace may abound. But I think we have to preach the Gospel as it is given to us from the Apostles and not leave anything out. Some will conclude let us sin that grace may abound; but when they do we have to keep on in our presentation of the Gospel as Paul did. But if you notice Paul preached justification so firmly that one may conclude 'sin that grace may abound' if they did not have the whole story. If we try to micromanage the effects of the Gospel by understating something like justification or Eph. 2:8 or Titus 3:5 we are not fully presenting the Gospel. We have to preach and let God deal with the results. ;-)

Who could have realized that this topic would be so greatly discussed if It was not for God's foreknowledge that I would launch it a few days ago...

Magnus :-P

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Does God know everything?

Krispy

That is what Omniscience means, Krispy, as if you didn't know that already.

Total knowledge, past, present, future, on our timeline and in eternity. But it doesn't mean He interferes with us in that timeline more than is absolutely necessary to get His perfect will done, while yet allowing His permissive will to act on earth. And that means allowing us to turn Him down, if we will have it so. And many do, a lot of them in my own family!

At this point in this thread, it appears to those not passionately involved like a scriptural tennis match, and to my mind, dishonors God that you play with the scriptures so much, each trying to beat the other.

There is no point that has not been discussed at least twice, so no one is interested in the scriptures anymore, just winning.

Please, stop the competition. Or does this have to go on with this subject week after week, month after month?

I've been on SI for only three months, and cannot escape the subject being raised over and over. Those who hold to foreknowledge will never give up their right to be wrong, and neither will those that hold to a desire to be able to say yes to Jesus, if that's all we do get to do.

You will not convince each other, and, although interesting occaisionally, which side we are on is not interesting all the time.

Frankly, enough is enough!

In Christ,

Forrest

For those Calvinist... I would like to ask this, in reference to my question about "does God know everything?"...

Yes.

Can God choose not to know some things? Such as...
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
...or...
Jeremiah 31:34 ...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Matthew 7 speaks of a relational knowledge that Jesus only has with those who abide in Him. Jesus still knows everyone, but not in the sense of Romans 8:29.

Jeremiah 31 speaks of God punishing sin in Jesus and therefore not holding the sins of Christians against them. God cannot make God forget things, it is just that God does not factor the sin to ones account.

Also, let me ask... has everything ever done on the face of the earth been from the dictate of God? In other words, God controlled?

God does not tempt, God does not force people to sin. God does however use the mistakes people make to bring glory to His name. See the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis 50:21, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

We see this dynamic between evil done by men (and they are held responsible for) and God using this wickedness to bring good.

Krispy, I am glad you are in this discussion because I have a question for you.

Proginosko is the Greek word for Foreknowledge as translated in Romans 8:29. This word also means Foreordained as the KJV translates it in 1 Peter 1:20, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

Do you agree that Proginosko can mean either Foreknowledge and Foreordained?

At this point in this thread, it appears to those not passionately involved like a scriptural tennis match, and to my mind, dishonors God that you play with the scriptures so much, each trying to beat the other.

This is a judgment of motivation and has little basis in reality. I am trying to get the person to understand the truth of the scriptures on a subject that is of vital importance. The finality of Unconditional Election is that God is made out to be the Devil. The fact that it feels like a back and forth tennis match is beside the point. It takes God to superintend our minds to bring us into the light.

As I write I am trying to know the truth as much as I am convey the truth that I know. Iron sharpens iron. Just because the conversation does not fit your taste does not mean it dishonors God. Let God say what dishonors Him.

Please, stop the competition. Or does this have to go on with this subject week after week, month after month?

I've been on SI for only three months, and cannot escape the subject being raised over and over. Those who hold to foreknowledge will never give up their right to be wrong, and neither will those that hold to a desire to be able to say yes to Jesus, if that's all we do get to do.

You will not convince each other, and, although interesting occaisionally, which side we are on is not interesting all the time.

Frankly, enough is enough!

Frankly your opinion carries no more weight than anyone elses.

I hope that my words are not coming across in an unloving way. It is my intent to have a friendly discussion of a vital doctrine of scripture. At the end of the day, I know that someone can hold to conditional election and still be saved. It is edifying to discuss the Biblical truth and sharpen each other like iron.

I hold to unconditional election and I do not think it makes God out to be the devil. God views all men in their sinful state and does not have to have mercy on anyone. In fact, if God gave each and every person justice then we would all end up in hell. It is because God is loving and merciful that anyone is saved.

The question we need to ask is not "Why did God hate Esau?" the question we need to ask is "Why did God love Jacob?"

I'm not trying to provoke an argument... but this is exactly what people do with scripture in discussions like these. Something is plain in black and white (for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more), so we explain to everyone why it doesnt mean what it says... it means something else.

Krispy, you may shoot me for saying this :-o but not everything in scripture should be taken literally. (Don't misunderstand me, I do believe the is bible is inerrant and completely true.) What you are saying is that God will actually remove something from His memory. This is not the point of the verse, the point of the verse is that our sins will not be used against us on the day of judgment.

I've been on SI for only three months, and cannot escape the subject being raised over and over. Those who hold to foreknowledge will never give up their right to be wrong, and neither will those that hold to a desire to be able to say yes to Jesus, if that's all we do get to do.

Personally I have been on a break from the forums for several months. This is my first enguagement with the subject in a long time. My answers are not designed to win an argument but to bring an understanding. If I did not think the words had value I would not waste my time sharing them. I don't type 80 words per minute. And I certainly am not in the business of winning arguments. The desire to to come to an understanding together and see if one person can shed some light on the other that they may not have known before. I LEARN things in these discussions that are important to my Christian life. My life has been changed for the better as a result of many conversations in these forums. For folk just to pop in and start accusing us of things, in my opinion, is way off base. No body put a gun to your head and forced you to read through these arguments.

I recall once that I took the exact same attitude on the subject of Catholicism a few years ago here. I wrote a missive to Krispy to the effect that we had worn the subject out. But I was wrong to do that. And I make a public declaration of that here. They were trying to shed light on a subject that I was more or less indifferent about. I got tierd of hearing about what I didn't care about. But Krispy cared about it and I did not respect that fact and I was wrong. I am terribly sorry for that and need to ask for forgiveness. I have occassionally tried to extend an olive leaf of encouragement to him in resitution- but that is not enough. So I am making my plea here and now as a formal apology for that reaction.

Krispy, your interpretation of Jeremiah 31:34 is dangerous because under your rules of interpreting scripture we run into a huge theological problem.

1 John 3:20, "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."

Does God know all things but has forgotten some things? Both cannot exist simultaneously.

Krispy and everyone else, I enjoy our discussions and my prayer is that I show everyone respect and love even though we don't see eye to eye on some of these issues.

I know for a fact that our salvation does not depend on whether or not someone is a Calvinist or Arminian or whatever. What matters is Jesus.

I do enjoy these discussion because anytime brothers and sister exhort and challenge a particular doctrine we must evaluate the truth. I also echo the phrase, "Let God be true and each man a liar".

God Bless you all.

Krispy, I have posted this numerous times, but I don't know if you have seen it:

II Peter 3:9 is a beautiful verse that demonstrates the love of God.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Some people emphasize the words 'not willing' and say that God is so patient and not willing that any person in the world perish that he is waiting for all men to come to repentance. But this is not really what the verse is saying.

I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone, but take a closer look at the verse.

To whom is God longsuffering? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved mentioned in verse 8. "But, beloved"

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you."

To whom is Peter writing this letter? Those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ--Christians.
2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say about the intended audience? 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Peter is not saying in this verse that God is patient with all men hoping that every person comes to repentance. Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish before the second coming and that all of the elect come to repentance.

Also, I would like your understanding of the two questions I posed earlier. They are:

Proginosko is the Greek word for Foreknowledge as translated in Romans 8:29. This word also means Foreordained as the KJV translates it in 1 Peter 1:20, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

Do you agree that Proginosko can mean either Foreknowledge and Foreordained?

Krispy, your interpretation of Jeremiah 31:34 is dangerous because under your rules of interpreting scripture we run into a huge theological problem.

1 John 3:20, "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."

Does God know all things but has forgotten some things? Both cannot exist simultaneously.

I will also listen to those sermons when I have a chance.

So in the interest of brotherly love,

This is one thing I appreciate about you brother, you constantly show the love of Christ.

We disagree, but this disagreement does not affect my respect for you. See you brother.

Have you all realized the fact that we Christians are greatly privileged by the all knowing and almighty God; that He has given us a heart of flesh instead of a stony one, so that we can freely follow his commandments?

Therefore: if we had been living under the old covenant as Isralites we would have been predestined to be an adulterous generation (i.e. if we didnt belong to the few who God protected from and kept in accordance with his will).

Conclusion: It is better to be born today i.e. after Jesus death and resurrection than before he was incarnated and dwelt among us.

M