In Regards to the concept of "Total Deprvity"

Genesis 6:4-8 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Welcome back Ormly.

You use only Abraham as your example. Who told you Abraham was unrighteous? Where is it written that he was? Where does say that Abraham believed God simply and only because of a promise made to him?

Was he righteous before he was reckoned righteous?

Ormly, I gladly welcome you back and I pray that we would all be encouraged in our discussions. I would love to hear sometime about all God has done in you and through you during your time away. Also, what lead you to come back to post at Sermonindex again.

God Bless.

Brother Ormly, glad to have you back. I hope neil sees that you are back as well, as I know he was saddened to see you leave.
Blessings to you.

2Ch 24:19 Yet he sent prophets to them, to bring them again unto the LORD; and they testified against them: but they would not give ear.

2Ch 33:10 And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they would not hearken.

Jer 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Christ is our only righteousness, He that is in us makes us son's of the Father.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

In Christ: "No other way to the Father"

Was Noah righteous before God chose him to build the Ark?

Justification is the judge's declaration of 'righteous' in respect of the charges against him.

Why would there be any need to 'reckon' Abraham as righteous if he had achieved 'righteousness'. The 'reckoned' righteousness would be superfluous.

It is recorded of Noah...Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. ... which is again specifically declared to be, not the righteousness of achievement, but the righteousness which is by faith'.

Acts 13:37. But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38. Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39. And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41. Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Romans 8:1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Hebrews 3: 12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 9:1. Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4. Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5. And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9. Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Ormly, nice to meet you. Is this what you are looking for?

Blessings,

Forrest

And so many still will not, mores the pity!

Anyway, will not is a refusal, can not is an inability, and that was built in once Adam and Eve ate the wrong fruit.

Oh, for a glorified body...I wish I didn't have to wait, and that Adam hadn't been hungry that day.

Blessings,

Forrest

Ormly,

We are talking about the sin principle, that Adam and Eve were changed from their former glorious state, chased out of the Garden of Eden, themselves and their descendants cursed for the disobedience they did in eating the fruit that was forbidden, the earth cursed to be less productive.

Adam and Eve, compared to us, were already in a glorified state, in which they could walk and talk with God, which presumes the ability to even see Him!

And what a fall the Fall was. Look around you. You will see the inbuilt weakness towards sin in the youngest children.

And I have read Romans, and studied it, it being my favorite book in the Bible, for it explains Matthew, Mark, Luke and John better than they do themselves.

We don't assume that we were cursed from Paul. It's in Genesis!

So is the transfer of dominion of the earth from Adam to Lucifer, while Christ took it back on the Cross!

Why do you look in Romans for what is so plainly stated elsewhere? Are you not complicating your own road? For no assumption was made by anyone in Genesis. It is plainly stated.

One needs no doctrine for what is already written plainly and simply.

Blessings,

Forrest

Which is unto salvation that only God can impart and not the righteousness evoked from Abraham by/because of his believing from his life experiences, that lead to the eventual impartation of the righteousness of God.

What makes anyone believe that no one could be righteous after the fall of Adam. His disobedience didn't strip him of his ability to be righteous.

What is righteousness?

The problem is that humanity tries to create a sense of righteousness apart from God. Righteousness is simply what God says is right. Whatever God says.....that is righteousness. It is God's choice.

Let me explain. When God created everything, afterward He "saw that it was good." Six times in Genesis, we see this said: Gen 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25. This means that God created with a particular purpose in mind, and when He was finished, He saw that His purpose was complete. Hence, God was pleased. He saw that it was good in His eyes.

To illustrate, let's say that you sat down to draw a tree. In your mind, you have a particular image of what a tree looks like. You then try to draw it on paper. If what you have drawn is exactly what you wanted it to be, then you would be very pleased with your drawing.

However, this statement was never said of humanity. God did not see that humanity was good or pleasing. Why? Because, the purpose God had for humanity was not yet complete. God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life. When that happened, then God would have found them to be pleasing. The choice was left up to them.

If you notice, God never told them about the other tree. He did not command them to eat from it. Instead, He wanted them to eat of it willingly. If God had told them the benefits of eating off this tree, then they would have eaten from it for the wrong reason. They would have sought the tree of life for benefits. If God would have commanded them, then they would be forced to eat from it. They would not be choosing to eat from it willfully, by their own choice.

For example, my wife never tells me to go out and buy her flowers. She loves flowers and wants them. But, she wants me to do this willingly. If she tells me, then she feels the whole moment is spoiled. She wants me to show my love willingly.

We know from John 17:3 that eternal life is knowledge of God. From the beginning, God desired an intimate relationship with us where we would be united as one in spirit to Him. That is what the tree of life represents. It is marriage to God. However, did we choose God? Did we willfully seek to know God in truth?

Instead, we ate from the tree of knowledge. We did not seek to know God intimately, we sought to develop a sense of righteousness apart from God.

Let us go back to the idea of righteousness and goodness. To be righteous is to be good. To be righteous or good means that we are pleasing in the eyes of God. This is expressed fully when Jesus was baptized in Matt 3:17 (KJ), "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The Father was saying, "This is my righteous and good son." Jesus would also later clarify in Matt 19:17 that only God is good.

What does this mean?

This means that righteousness and goodness are relative to the person who establishes what righteousness or goodness is. When we ate from the tree of knowledge, we established our own sense (or interpretation) of what righteousness and goodness are.

For example, you might eat a bowl of strawberry ice cream and say, "That is good" because you find it pleasing to you. Another person who is allergic to strawberries says, "that is bad" because they find it displeasing. Or...here is another example: a person might say that eating only vegetables is good because they find it pleasing to their own sense of good and evil. Another person, however, may say that eating only vegetables is bad because they find it displeasing to their own sense of good and evil.

However, as you and I know, it doesn't matter what humanity thinks is good or evil, because God says what is good and evil. If God says we should only eat vegetables, then only eating vegetables is good. Whatever is pleasing to God, not to ourselves, is what establishes righteousness.

The problem, of course, is that in eating of the tree of knowledge, our nature is to try and establish our own righteousness apart from God. We like to say, "This is right and this is wrong" based upon our own senses (feelings, thoughts, wisdom, perception)....rather than seeking God.

The Sabbath is a perfect example of this problem that Jesus had to address on several occasions. The Sabbath was commanded by God in the Ten Commandments. God made this law. Behind the command was God's intention and purpose. He had a reason for giving the law. When we read the law, we must interpret this intention. Some people take this law to be exact or precise. Under no conditions or circumstances are we to work on the Sabbath. In this, they take a literalist interpretation, and thus, rely on their own understanding. They do not seek God's will in the matter. They don't seek to know God or His purpose behind the law. Instead, they take the law at face value so that they manipulate it for their own end. This becomes apparent when Jesus faced this situation.

Mark 2:27-28 (NIV) Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Notice what Jesus says. The Sabbath was made for man. The law was made for man. The law was created to serve man, not rule man. Instead, God (who is called Lord) is to rule man. We were created for God, not for the law. This means that the law cannot make us righteous. The law is subject to our own understanding of it. However, God is not. God is Lord.

The problem is that we want to make ourselves righteous based upon own idea of what righteousness is. Man wants to tell God what is righteous. Man uses the law to His own advantage to tell God, "Hey, I obeyed the law, so now I am righteous." But God gave us the law to show us that we are not God.

To be good or righteous is to be god. Only God is good. The whole point is to prove to man that we are not God. Instead, we are separated from God. We cannot be righteous, because we cannot be godly apart from God. We need to be united as one with God so that God Himself is our righteousness.

Let's rewind for a moment back to the garden. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they didn't just disobey God. They made a choice to be separated from God. They chose to do things their way. The temptation was that Eve would be like God meaning that she would be independent. She could decide for herself what was right or wrong. She wouldn't have to obey God or do things His way. She could be her own person with her own ideas.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were separated from God. They fell from glory as Paul says in the Romans. To fall from glory means they were changed. They became something that God did not recognize.

When God created Adam and Eve, He had a particular purpose for them. He wanted them to be a particular way. However, Adam and Eve chose to be something else. They were created in the image of God. After they sinned, they no longer resembled the image of God. Adam and Eve were glorious creatures, unashamed. Afterward, they saw they were naked. They were naked because God's glory no longer clothed them. They fell from glory. They were separated from God.

They had become nothing but dust. From dust we were created and to dust we returned.

This means that anyone born from Adam and Eve is born in this same condition. We are born as a fallen creature. We are born displeasing to God. We do not look anything like what God had intended for us to be.

It would be the same as if you set your heart on making beautiful earthen pottery. Let us say you began by making a wonderful bowl. It was striking and very pleasing. The only thing left was to fire it in the kiln. However, inside the kiln, the bowl cracked and broke apart. Your intention was that the bowl would be gloriously beautiful. However, the bowl became a useless lump of clay.

When you understand this condition, you begin to see that we are hopeless. Not only have we been born into sin, but we sin adding sin upon sin. Yes, we are born in state of sin. On top of this, we continue to disobey, adding sin upon sin. We can never be righteous. We cannot please God. No way, no how.

We need to be born again. We need to be transformed. On top of this, we need God Himself to be righteousness for us because we have no righteousness of our own.

When you understand all this, then and only then, will you ever fully appreciate Jesus Christ. I am not righteous and never will be. I am nothing but dust. However, because Christ is united as one with me, because of Him, I am glorious. I am pleasing to God. I am righteous because Christ who is righteous is my husband.

No man can reveal this to you. This truth that I have just presented can only be revealed to a person by God Himself. I could write pages upon pages and you would never understand. I pray, therefore, the Lord would reveal this to you. May Christ impart this to you so that you may see yourself in true light.

In Christ,
Blake

*edit: added this...*

Romans 7:18 (NAS)
"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."

How were they changed in that those after them were both righteous and unrighteous?

There is only one who is holy, one who is good, one who is pleasing to God, one who righteous....and that is the one and only Son of God.

Romans 3:10(NIV)
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

In love,
Blake

Simply try a different perspective, get away from redemption, though necessary, as being the core of the gospel and it will read like a new book.

Dear Ormly,

I know you were not addressing me, but what you said is of no small matter. Indeed if you try a different perspective the bible will read like a new book, because you will be hearing what you want to hear, and not what God is saying.

My friend, Christ came for only one purpose. He came to save what was lost. His name means salvation. In Matthew 1:21(NIV), it says, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

There is no other gospel than that of redemption, and no other truth apart from Jesus Christ.

Again, I pray Christ will show this to you as I certainly cannot.

In love,
Blake

Not in the least is it explaned in Genesis or anywhere else that man could not return or respond to God.

Genesis 3:22 (NIV)
And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

The tree of life, which is eternal life, which is knowledge of God, was blocked off. We could not in our own power return to God. We were forbidden.

John 8:34-35 (NIV)
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever."

A slave has no permanent place in the family. A slave cannot make him or herself part of the family. Only Jesus, the Son, belongs to God forever. Only Jesus can bring a person to God.

John 10:1, 9
"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber." ... "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture."

Jesus clearly acknowledges that a person cannot by their own power enter the gate leading to God. Jesus is the gate. He is the only way to enter. This means that a person cannot return or respond to God any other way than salvation through Jesus Christ.

I could list many, many more scriptures. I am sure others will give you more. Jesus said Himself in John 3:3, "You must be born again." If we can return or respond to God by our own power, then why would we need to be born again? If we can save ourselves, why would we need a new birth where we are changed?

In love,
Blake

Beenblake, Why don't you just be a good reader for awhile, ok?

If that is what you desire. I was just trying to help.

God bless,
Blake

In Romans 3 it speaks of man's sinful nature, this spoken of a specific group of men, as a result of, in Chapter 1, he-man didn't want to retain God in his thinking: Romans 1:21 (KJV) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. This would indicate that man, before "as it is written", knew God and obeyed Him, howbeit in varying degrees.

So my question is where in any of Paul's writings has it that man couldn't return to God. I rather read that he would not, not that he could not.

The Bible does indeed say that unregenerate man knows God (as you have pointed out in Romans 1:21) but it also says that they do not know Him (see 1 Cor 2:14, 15:34, 1 Thess 4:5, 2 Thess 1:8, 1 John 4:7-8). So, it seems that in some sense knowledge of God is universal and in some sense it is not. Clearly some distinctions need to be made.

I believe it is significant that the passage in Romans 1:18-32 states that there is a revealed truth to all mankind that includes "His eternal power and Godhead" (v. 20) among other things but it does not state that this revelation in nature communicates the way of salvation. It seems that Paul believes that this additional revelation of the way of salvation comes through the preaching of the gospel (see Romans 10:13-17). So it appears there is general revelation and special revelation.

So, God's revelation is inescapable, but, apart from special revelation and the saving grace of God, people exchange this truth for lies and are wicked and enemies of God. Only God's grace turns that enmity into friendship, unto Him be honor and glory for ever and ever, amen!

In Christ,

Ron

How can you be helping me or anyone when you take issue without a good reading for understanding, from what is written?

If I am reading you wrongly, then I apologize. However, from what you are stating, you are suggesting that man did not fall from glory, but that we choose to sin. Hence, you are saying that we are not slaves, and that if we choose, we could easily obey God. You are suggesting that all we must do is deny our sinful nature. Is that true? Or am I reading you wrongly?

If this is what you are saying, then I ask you to really consider it. If our nature is to sin, then to deny our sinful nature is only to deny the truth. We are sinful, not because we commit sinful acts, but because our being is sinful. A dog barks because it is a dog. A sinner sins because he or she is a sinner.

When God redeems us and we are born again, then our being is changed. Our nature is no longer to sin. We are righteous because of what God has done. He changed our being.

A sinner fights against his her sinful nature. They are in a constant battle with sin. They struggle trying to keep themselves from sinning. A person who has been saved has a new nature. They are a new being. Such a person doesn't have to fight against sin inwardly. Their nature is like God's nature. They act righteous naturally. Obedience is not a struggle or a fight, instead, it is a joy.

Anyone who is fighting against sin is a sinner. They are a slave to sin. They have to battle against the sinful nature for victory. Sad thing is, they will never win.

When Christ sets a person free, they don't fight with sin anymore. They produce good fruit. As you know, fruit grows off a vine. This means that our good works grow off Jesus Christ who lives in us. This means that we don't fight to do good or fight against sin. We only fight against the Devil and this world. However, our inward nature is at peace. There is no fight. We are made complete in Christ.

Do you agree with this or not?

In love,
Blake

*edit*

I just wanted to add that I have experienced both sides. I have battled against my sinful nature trying to be righteous. When I realized that I could not do it, then I was saved.

There is an awesome quote by Watchman Nee about this in His book called "The Normal Christian Life":

I was once staying in a place in China with some twenty other brothers. There was inadequate provision for bathing in the home where we stayed, so we went for a daily plunge in the river. On one occasion a brother had cramp in one leg, and I suddenly saw he was sinking fast, so I motioned to another brother, who was an expert swimmer, to hasten to his rescue. But to my astonishment he made no move. So I grew desperate and called out: ‘Don’t you see the man is drowning?’ and the other brothers, about as agitated as I was, shouted vigorously too. But our good swimmer still did not move. Calm and collected, he remained just where he was, apparently postponing the unwelcome task. Meantime the voice of the poor drowning brother grew fainter and his efforts feebler. In my heart I said: ‘I hate that man! Think of his letting a brother drown before his very eyes and not going to the rescue!’

But when the man was actually sinking, with a few swift strokes the swimmer was at his side, and both were safely ashore. When I got an opportunity I aired my views. ‘I have never seen any Christian who loved his life quite as much as you do’, I said. ‘Think of the distress you would have saved that brother if you had considered yourself a little less and him a little more.’ But the swimmer knew his business better than I did. ‘Had I gone earlier’, he said, ‘he would have clutched me so fast that both of us would have gone under. A drowning man cannot be saved until he is utterly exhausted and ceases to make the slightest effort to save himself.’

Do you see it? When we give up the case, then God will take it up. He is waiting until we are at an end of our resources and can do nothing more for ourselves. God has condemned all that is of the old creation and consigned it to the Cross. The flesh profiteth nothing! If we try to do anything in the flesh we are virtually repudiating the Cross of Christ. God has declared us to be fit only for death. When we truly believe that, then we confirm God’s verdict by giving up all our fleshly efforts to please Him. Our every effort to do His will is a denial of His declaration in the Cross of our utter worthlessness. Our continued efforts are a misunderstanding on the one hand of God’s demands and on the other hand of the source of supply.

What Christ have still come if Adam had not transgressed?

Hey Ormly,

I have a feeling you might have missed my long post on page three. Just checking.

I hope you know that I write this all in the sincerity of my heart seeking to help. I know words cannot express the tone of our voices and sometimes may be misleading.

In love,
Blake

And I apologize to you Blake. I was short and it was not necessary.....not yet anyhow..

Thanks my friend.

I appreciate your honesty. I am not offended if you ask me to remain silent. Sometimes I do need to listen better.

Blake

Brother Ormly, in regards to saving grace being resisted or not, what do you think Paul would have said concerning his own experience?

Dear Ormly,

I am sorry my friend, but I see that we do not agree. I will leave you with this one challenging thought.

Please do not take offense to this. The philosophy that you are speaking of sounds much like Buddhism. They also believe that the self is the key problem. They believe our "self" is our biggest enemy.

But this isn't the case with Christ. For the golden rule says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." If I deny myself, then how can I love my neighbor as myself?

What you don't see is that the problem is not with the self, but the self without God as Lord.

God created humans for Him. We were created for God. However, we did not want to serve God. Our sin is that we sought another Lord to replace God. Indeed, one of these Lords is our "self." However, there are many false Lords, including the Devil, that is our problem. The "self" is only one of these.

Adam and Eve did not listen to God. As such, they did not obey or heed His authority. They rebelled. In doing so, they left the Kingdom of God (the rule of God) and were from then on ruled by other things. Humanity was separated from the dominion of the creator.

One of the problems that comes with the sinful nature is that we are deceived into thinking we can rule ourselves. As such, we are deluded to believe we can have self-control. People who want such "self-control" try to be righteous by controlling themselves. As such, they are Lord over themselves.

The teaching you are proposing sounds much like this. It suggests that we should have complete control over ourselves by denying ourselves. As such, we become Lord or master of our "self."

However, in Luke 9:23 (NIV) Christ said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

Indeed, Christ said we must deny ourselves AND take up our cross. We must be crucified with Christ. The key thing Jesus said here is "follow me." We deny ourselves, not so we can rule ourselves, but so that Jesus can rule over us. Jesus said, "Believe in me" which means we trust Jesus more than ourselves. The Father said, "This is my Son, listen to Him." We call Jesus Christ our Lord because we loving submit to Him and His authority.

The question is: Have you made Jesus Christ your Lord? Does He rule over your "self"...over all of you?

Or do you fight with your "self"? Do you battle with your "self" trying to be something you are not?

If the "self" were righteous, then there would be no battle. The "self" would not be our enemy, it would be righteous. However, if the "self" is our enemy, if we constantly have to fight with it, this means we are trying to be something we are not. This means, we need to be changed and born again.

We deny ourselves, not so we can conquer our own nature, but that we may give it to Jesus so He can give us a new "self." By doing this, Jesus Christ becomes our Lord. He becomes the one who conquers our nature. He becomes the one who gives us victory over sin. He becomes our righteousness. By this, we have done nothing in our own power. Instead, God is the one who works in us.

There is nothing wrong with the new "self" that is united as one with Christ. The "self" that is crucified to Christ has been raised to new life. The resurrected "self" is entirely righteous because it is dominated by Christ. The new "self" is controlled by the Spirit when a person is born again.

Have you not heard Paul speak about this in Romans? He speaks about becoming a "new creation." Some bible translations even translate it a "new self."

The point is this, if a person has been born again, and they have a new "self" from God, then this new "self" is just like the resurrected Christ. There is nothing wrong with Christ, and there is nothing wrong with the resurrected "self."

No, Been, I believe our "self" is our biggest enemy; our biggest problem, especially when we sympathize with it. The "woe is me" syndrome.

I do not mean to be arrogant, but I do not experience this anymore. Since I have been saved, I do not fight with myself. Every day, I relinquish all control over to Jesus. He then takes complete control. There is no fight, no war, just a continual pursuit of God's will. As a result, I am filled with the joy of God.

If you actually knew me in person, you could see this is true. I wish you could. However, all I can do is encourage you.

My friend, we could debate this for years. All I can say is this....if you struggle with the "self", then try giving up self-control. Pray to Jesus Christ and ask Him to take control and transform you so that you don't have to fight with yourself. Make Him your Lord. If you do this, Christ will change you, and you will see this is true.

Otherwise, we are just debating over words.

I say this in love,
May Christ be ours,

Blake

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word draw has the connotation of to drag.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It takes the spiritual wind of of being born again unto a new live in Christ to bring any man to Jesus. No man would, could or even has the capacity to reach for God. It takes the Father Himself to drag any man to the feet of Jesus, and even at that, kicking and screaming, no, no, no I can do it myself, just see how all the others came to you of their own goodness and Killing your own Son, Jesus Christ was not necessary, we are our own gods and we can do it on our works. So thank you very much God but you really did not have to do it.

No man is righteous or could ever be or ever will be on his own. Total deprivation is absolutely and without fault the whole of man.
Praise God, His foolishness is so much greater than the wisest of men. Christ in us is truly the only Hope of Glory, for there is no hope in ourselves.

Galatians 2:12-21 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is All God, man can do nothing to attain any righteousness, even Enoch and Elijah, God did it all, Who's fiery chariot was it anyhow? Enoch did not walk with God on Enoch's terms, but Gods.

Now perfect In Christ, not on my terms but God's in Christ Jesus by His work: Phillip

Brother Jesse wrote;

The true view of total depravity is that sinners do have free-will, but use it wrongly in everything. None of their choices are supremely for God or neighbor, but all of their choices are for themselves. Total depravity in this sense is that a sinner is totally selfish.

Sorry to keep following you in a sense...but this caught my eye....

You wrote..."Total depravity in this sense is that a sinner is totally selfish."

Is the "lie" that Lucifer promotes the energy behind why we become selfish?

In Christ
Jeff

Why did God choose Abraham?

“For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.”” (Gen 18:19 NKJV) The KJV could be interpreted as meaning God had chosen him 'because'... but the other version eliminate that possibility and show that the sense is 'in order that'...

I could accept all three you post but rather place the KJV at the head because of the present tense it supports inferring an on going relationship from the beginning.

The KJV only has a present tense here in respect to God's 'knowing' of Abraham and refers not to Abraham's present or future but simply to God's recognition of him. I don't see why you would want support of this 'present' tense.

The sense of the verse is plainly seen in the general way in which it has been translated, as in [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Gen&chapter=18&verse=19&version=KJV#19]these examples.[/url]

Simply because everything with God is "present" tense. In Him there is no time. Whenever God says He knows someone it was from the beginning He knew him, in Him, whenever that was from eternity past.

The Ephesians quotation has nothing to do with this question.

He chose Abraham because He knew him. Foreknowledge of God, you know.

Regretable you couldn't make application.

I will stick with my version unless you have something more concrete than what I rest my opinion upon.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1670. helkuo
Search for G1670 in KJVSL
elkuw helkuo hel-koo'-o
or helko hel'-ko; probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. Compare 1667.Greek for 1670

Pronunciation Guide
helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or helko {hel'-ko}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 2:503,227 probably akin to 138
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 8
AV - draw 8; 8

Thayer's Lexicon (Help)

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Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:41 ¶ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Lexicon / Concordance for Jhn 6:44

English Strong's Greek (Root form) Tense
(Click on any item below for Concordance) (Click)
No man [3762] oudeis
can [1410] dunamai
come [2064] erchomai
to [4314] pros
me, [3165] me
except [3362] ean me
the Father [3962] pater
which [3588] ho
hath sent [3992] pempo
me [3165] me
draw [1670] helkuo
him: [846] autos
and [2532] kai
I [1473] ego
will raise [450] anistemi
him [846] autos
up [450] anistemi
at the last [2078] eschatos
day. [2250] hemera

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Jhn 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Jhn 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit (HOLY SPIRIT) that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

QUICKENETH:
Lexicon Results for zoopoieo (Strong's 2227)
Greek for 2227

Pronunciation Guide
zoopoieo {dzo-op-oy-eh'-o}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 2:874,290 from the same as 2226 and 4160
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

b) to restore to life

c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life

d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 12
AV - quicken 9, give life 2, make alive 1; 12

Thayer's Lexicon (Help)

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Strong's 2228

To give life a created being has to be dead. That is why rebirth is necessary. We are dead in trespasses and sins. We must be quickened by the Holy Spirit to receive a complete new birth in Christ, that being of Spirit and the Water of Life which is Christ promise at the well.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

How did He know? He knew who the Spirit had quickened.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

How can man be righteous if He dead to righteousness? The only righteousness is in Christ whom the Father has made unto us.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I would think that death is the epitome of total depravity. Especially when man has not the power of regeneration.

In Christ: Phillip

My answer, man cannot.

Do you understand the mystery?

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word draw has the connotation of to drag.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It takes the spiritual wind of of being born again unto a new live in Christ to bring any man to Jesus. No man would, could or even has the capacity to reach for God. It takes the Father Himself to drag any man to the feet of Jesus, and even at that, kicking and screaming, no, no, no I can do it myself, just see how all the others came to you of their own goodness and Killing your own Son, Jesus Christ was not necessary, we are our own gods and we can do it on our works. So thank you very much God but you really did not have to do it.

No man is righteous or could ever be or ever will be on his own. Total depravation is absolutely and without fault the whole of man.
Praise God, His foolishness is so much greater than the wisest of men. Christ in us is truly the only Hope of Glory, for there is no hope in ourselves.

Galatians 2:12-21 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is All God, man can do nothing to attain any righteousness, even Enoch and Elijah, God did it all, Who's fiery chariot was it anyhow? Enoch did not walk with God on Enoch's terms, but Gods.

Now perfect In Christ, not on my terms but God's in Christ Jesus by His work: Phillip

Oooooh!!!! I liked this one, Philip. Very well put! And really good satire, too!!!

Ormly, if you are trying to convert us or convince us, Jaysaved has already tried. And he's a great scholar and a good Bro!

It isn't that I don't care, even though I don't, that much, 'cause without Jesus, we'd have nothing, and without God, we wouldn't have Jesus.

So what is the POINT? Are you going to play Stephen Hawkins, and tell me how the world was made too?

If you want a book on refutations of Calvinism, you could go to a book store.

Look, I don't know you well enough to know anything about you except that you are well versed in your denomination's beliefs, and that you are very stubborn.

I have no denominational beliefs at all, having no denomination, and I am very stubborn. What of it?

Could we just get to know you without you showing off your Calvinist credentials? I'm sure, like JaySaved, you are a very well meaning person, who loves Jesus. Why else would you come to this site?

But believe it or not, you don't need to address the finer points of what the Bible says about the entire concept of salvation to prove that.

GOD IS IN CONTROL...OF EVERYTHING HE WANTS TO BE IN CONTROL OF!

Sorry to shout, but you don't seem to be listening.

Philip, please, don't encourage this - your opinion, and time, is needed on weightier matters. Which ones? Almost any.

I'm beginning to believe that Calvin was a cult leader, his adherants are so sure they are right, and only they are right. No offense to Reformist Believers.

Me, I'm only sure that Jesus loves me, having died to pay my debt.

Almost everything of this type gets down to 'I KNOW what God did' statements, which, no one can ever prove entirely.

Let's leave it to Jesus to explain in detail just how it was all done...during the Millenium!

Blessings,

Forrest

Actually, it was ChistinYou:

Now perfect in Christ, no problem, however, please reconcile this verse from Jesus:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48 (KJV)

Thank you

I said:

Ormly, if you are trying to convert us or convince us, Jaysaved has already tried. And he's a great scholar and a good Bro!

It isn't that I don't care, even though I don't, that much, 'cause without Jesus, we'd have nothing, and without God, we wouldn't have Jesus.

So what is the POINT? Are you going to play Stephen Hawkins, and tell me how the world was made too?

If you want a book on refutations of Calvinism, you could go to a book store.

Look, I don't know you well enough to know anything about you except that you are well versed in your denomination's beliefs, and that you are very stubborn.

I have no denominational beliefs at all, having no denomination, and I am very stubborn. What of it?

Ormly said:
Neither do I have a denomination.

I said: Could we just get to know you without you showing off your Calvinist credentials? I'm sure, like JaySaved, you are a very well meaning person, who loves Jesus. Why else would you come to this site?

Ormly said:

I am not of Calvin. If you read the OP you would know that.

I Said:

But believe it or not, you don't need to address the finer points of what the Bible says about the entire concept of salvation to prove that.

Ormly said:

I am not out to prove anything except the notion of "total depravity" is a man made reasoning devoid of Biblical insight.....and I certainly won't contritute to anyones knowledge who is unteachable. Are you unteachable?

I said:
GOD IS IN CONTROL...OF EVERYTHING HE WANTS TO BE IN CONTROL OF!

Sorry to shout, but you don't seem to be listening.

Ormly said:

And you don't read too well. So who has the greater problem?

Study to show yourself approved. Maybe then the Holy Spirit will have something to work with from your account.

Read the OP for understanding.

Now, I say:

My, you have a vicious tongue. But at least you are now saying something clearly. What is the O.P.?

It may be why you are being misunderstood. If you are not of Calvin, why does total depravity interest you? I'd like to know why, so that, when I know what the O.P. is, I can talk reasonably about it.

I've read the thread, and it sounds, I repeat, sounds, like a standard Calvinistic Argument.

What is the OP? I'll happily read it.

Blessings,

Forrest

Phillip,

I seem to have misunderstood the thread. I'm trying to get the gist from Ormly.

Sorry to break in on your argument. The thread sounded sooooooo Calvinistic, I was misled.

On the other hand, you seem to have proved your point to me, but it's Ormly that wants the answers.

Do as you will, and never mind me!

Apologies,

Forrest

Ormly,

christinyou is a pretty good example of this site, as is Krispy Kritter, Rookie, Philologos, RoaringLamb, Enid, and many others. I'm too new to be a known quantity. Those that represent this site well are also the moderators, the chief of which is a young man who started it called SermonIndex.

For examples of what this site is like, stay above the 1000 post level - you have to be around a while to get there, with life and all intruding.

But I don't want you to go away, even if you do sound, I repeat, sound other than you directly mean. I can learn to take you literally, and read nothing into your words.

Sorry, but what I objected to was your tone, as it comes across to me, but since writing never comes off quite the same way as a conversation, please be a little patient with me.

I sincerely thought you meant a book called the O.P.!

And I did read your original post, and the whole, long thread, and it sounded, repeat, sounded, like a standard Calvinistic offense/defense thread.

My mistake.

Dumping the line of thought of Calvinism, let me ask you:

Are you asking - Was man made with a depraved nature:

as in unable to understand Scripture?
as in unable to apprehend the idea of God?
as in unable to seek God without being called?
as in unable to ever be right in his own nature?
as in unable to make up for that depravity?

or in any other way that might help me to understand you, and what you are asking.

Also, is it a question that can be answered by even the most scholarly of us?

Or are you just testing the site, to see if anyone knows as much as you do?

All this in sincere curiousity, in an attempt to 'hear' you clearly. Please take a deep breath, and tie up your quite natural frustration at not being understood, and then, seemingly attacked by me.

You see, I hate Calvinistic attack/defense threads, or those that resemble them - really unanswerable except by God.

Please let me know, then I'll re-read the thread again.

I really am trying to understand what you said in the O.P., now that I know what that is.

Unfortunately, I'm having trouble with it.

Apologies,

Forrest

I presume that everyone will agree that those not born from above by regeneration are all children of the devil. That is scriptural. If you look at Revelation at what happens when the Holy Spirit departs from the world just prior to tribulation, all men become the beasts that they are. The Holy Spirit restrains evil from actually acting out what it is. If God departed from this world, it would become Hell. Men aren't good, they are children of wrath. There is none good no not one. What does the word sinful mean but full of sin. I sincerely struggle with how this isn't plain to all from Scripture. I sometimes wonder if the reason people struggle with the utter depravity of mankind is because we were raised to think all men are the children of God and just need to fixed a little bit. There is a reason we have to be born again. Flesh and blood will not see the Lord. We are born the first time with corruptible seed and the second time with incorruptible.

Ormly wrote:
The last paragraph from my OP asks with pointed reference to Romans 3:10-18 (HCSB) as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, together they have become useless; there is no one who does good, there is not even one. ............."

..... Where in any of Paul's writings has it that man couldn't return to God. I rather read that he would not, not that he could not.....and suffered the consequences for his actions?

You, not being a Calvinist, should have no difficulty with this question. It really isn't even addressed to you. Perhaps you have a Calvinist friend?...and If I don't read like I am happy,, you will be correct in assuming that.

Well, when you sound like you're growling, you might easily be misunderstood.

But that quote was exactly why I took this to be a Calvinist Thread. If you already know there are none righteous, why are you asking the question?

And when you label a thread 'Total Depravity', it is a bit misleading to then pretend ignorance of the fact that there is none righteous when you yourself quoted those words.

As to not writing to me, you are not on a private message board, but an open thread.

If you only wanted christinyou to answer you, you could have messaged him, instead of opening a thread that is read by all at this site. He's very nice, you see, and answers everyone's questions. It was why I didn't want him being trapped in another Calvinist thread.

And I thought this was a Calvinistic thread, because of the words 'Total Depravity', and the quote that 'none are righteous'. It seemed to me that you answered yourself.

These things do happen, you know, and I did apologize. Do you want another one? I'm often wrong, and hence, apologize often, so I have a lot of practice.

As to sounding mean and unhappy, if you want to, you can. I will still try to take you seriously and literally.

I am trying now.

Blessings,

Forrest

Ormly wrote:
You can't read. I'm done

Uh Oh!

And I really was trying really hard to be nice.

My apologies to everyone on the site.

Forrest

Man, by nature, is not utterly depraved which would mean he couldn't turn to God....unless you can point to scripture that says he is. I have found none.

These scriptures are taken from the NIV, unless otherwise stated...

John 6:44
No one [color=0000FF]can[/color] come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness [color=0000FF]could[/color] be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Jeremiah 13:23
[color=0000FF]can[/color] the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither [color=0000FF]can[/color] you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he [color=0000FF]cannot[/color] understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:3 (NAS)
For what the Law [color=0000FF]could not[/color] do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

In the entire chapter of Job 9, he also makes known this very issue. Who is man that he could turn to God?

Job 9:2,15
Indeed, I know that this is true. But how [color=0000FF]can[/color] a mortal be righteous before God? 15 Though I were innocent, I [color=0000FF]could not[/color] answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.

Job 14:1-5
1 "Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. 3 Do you fix your eye on such a one? Will you bring him before you for judgment? 4 Who [color=0000FF]can[/color] bring what is pure from the impure? No one! 5 Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.

Proverbs 20:9
Who [color=0000FF]can[/color] say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?

SCRIPTURES ON SLAVERY TO SIN SUGGESTING THAT MAN CANNOT TURN TO GOD

John 8:34
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."

Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Galatians 3 :22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Jeremiah 2:22
"Although you wash yourself with soda and use an abundance of soap, the stain of your guilt is still before me," declares the Sovereign Lord.

Ecclesiastes 7:20,29 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. 29 This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

Psalms 51 :5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Blake

Blake, I'm so sorry.

I chased Ormly off with my honesty, even though I tried to be nice. I guess he didn't believe me when I said I was sorry. I must have hit his aggravation point, though why after 60 posts in three days was he aggravated? Must be my stupidity.

Anyway, it was a great post - answered what I thought the question was, once I re-read the original post.

Of course, Ormly might not think so.

Regrets,

Forrest

Of course, Ormly might not think so.

philologos wrote:

Of course, Ormly might not think so.

Ormly doesn't want a discussion; he wants a surrender.

Thank you, Ron. I don't feel quite so rotten now.
That makes sense then. I couldn't figure out why he didn't answer my questions.

I do try to be kind and well spoken, but I also try to be honest.

That makes it a bit hard sometimes. Still, words can bite, and dig in deep if you're not careful.

I'll just keep on being careful.

Thank you, Bro!

Blessings,

Forrest