Adam, Was he created "independent man"?

Dear Ormly,

I am beginning to wonder what you are seeking. Are you looking for an answer to this question, or just an opportunity to promote your own ideas? I hope your questions are sincere, and I am going to assume they are.

What can be safely assumed from scripture to be the truth that can be built upon?

All scripture is about Jesus Christ. In John 5:39-40, it says, "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." In John 17:3, Jesus clearly indicates that eternal life is knowledge of God. This means that Jesus was saying that we cannot have a knowledge of God from scripture. If anyone desires knowledge of God, they must goto Him.

This is important. This means that we cannot impart truth from scripture unless it is first revealed to us by Jesus Christ. If you or anyone else desires to know the truth concerning scripture, you must goto Jesus. Do not ask men this question. They can tell you many things, even the truth, but only Jesus can reveal truth to you. Only Christ can show you the way.

You need to ask Him this question.

f we can conclude he was then did he ever lose his independence; his ability to make choices?

In the beginning, God created man and God had an obvious relationship with man. Man was not independent. Rather, man depended on God for all things.

When man fell, then man was separated from God and made independent from God. However, man can never be totally independent because "It is not good for man to be alone." We were not created to be independent. We must depend on other sources for existence.

For example, you must eat and work to live. If you should just sit and not eat, then you will die. Humans are constantly dependent on other things for life.

As far as "free will" is concerned, there are a great many people that misinterpret this idea. A will is simply a wish or a desire. Free will is not free choice. Free will is something internal.

Free will implies that we may desire whatever we wish. However, just because we desire something, that doesn't mean we can choose it. I may desire to win the lottery. Does that mean it will happen? No. Obviously, I don't have free choice. I might desire to flap my arms and fly, but I cannot make that happen.

Free will means that we as humans can choose who we worship with our heart. That is all. We have the freedom to love, to have faith, and to give trust. We do not have the freedom to do whatever we want. In fact, humans are easily manipulated and controlled by our beliefs. The Devil uses us all the time by telling us lies.

Humans are extremely dependent creatures. We are weak and ignorant. We are born without any knowledge and must learn everything. As we grow and learn, we develop beliefs. For instance, our parents might have told us about Santa Claus. When they did, we had to decide whether or not to believe them. Because we imparted them trust and love, we do believe them. We accept them as the authority over us. We are dependent on them. In this way, we allow them to control us.

This means a child is not in control. We do not have complete freedom. We must make decide whether or not we will believe something when we hear it. This is our freedom. We may choose what will control us or not. When the Devil comes and tells us a lie, will we believe him or not? Obviously, if we do not know God, then we will easily be deceived. If we don't know God, how will we know that the Devil is deceiving us? First, we must know God by the revelation of Christ. This means, we need Jesus to reveal God to us, then we may be safe from lies and deception.

A great many people go around thinking they are mighty and independent beings, when in truth they are being controlled by the Devil. He has them caged in a bed of lies. The bible says they are deluded. Only Christ can set us free from this.

So, to answer your question, man is not independent. We have never been.

Hope this helps to answer your question,

Blake

Can you answer that?

To surrender all means we surrender everything....

heart, mind, body, soul,
money, time, resources, possessions,
control, authority, will, understanding,
self, person, life, spirit,
family, friends, enemies,

and most importantly: sin. We surrender our sin to Jesus. This means we don't try to control our sin, we give it to Jesus to control.

To surrender all means that we lay down everything unto the feet of Jesus Christ so that He may rule over us with complete authority inward and outward.

In Christ,
Blake

Then you must mean one's independence to be included in that, correct? Of course you do.

Yes, if indeed we have any.

Blake

Well, do we or don't we?

What do you mean by independence?

The word independence implies that we do not have any dependence. Humans are extremely dependent creatures. We must eat in order to live. We are dependent on food for life. In that sense, we are not independent.

In Christ,
Blake

Farewell then.

The answer to your question is no. Humans are not independent in any sense of the word.

The one freedom we do have is the ability to choose whom we are dependent upon. We never have and never will have access to our own buttons. But we can choose who sits at our keyboard.

In Christ,
Blake

What can be safely assumed from scripture to be the truth that can be built upon? If we can conclude he was then did he ever lose his independence; his ability to make choices?

I believe your question here may just be an extension of thought from the Total Depravity thread and that this question perhaps reveals a misunderstanding of what Total Depravity is.

My understanding (limited as it is) of Total Depravity is that our whole being (will, heart, mind, body) is corrupted. It says that, as a result of the Fall, sin is something in our very nature and that we are sinful apart from our actions.

However, being thus corrupted does not mean that we can no longer make choices, or our heart can no longer feel, or our mind can no longer think. These faculties remain, but the governing principle behind them is now depraved. Depravity simply means that mankind has no inclination to redeem itself.

This doesn't mean that man can't do good things or take civil actions or take even good external religious actions but Scripture does seem to make it clear that no unregenerate person can do any act that is acceptable with God (see Romans 8:8 and Hebrews 11:6).

In Christ,

Ron

I'm finished, Been. I won't chase your rabbits. You figure it out from here.

Perhaps someone has something they would like to contribute. If not then I will let the thread die; chaulk it off to it being a poor question.

Ormly wrote:
Good. I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.

Why are you acting like this? If you honestly don't have an attitude problem, please try to express yourself in a manner that reflects your attitude. I understand completely that is hard to do, but things like this just don't need to be said.

The term "Total Depravity" is no where even hinted at in the scriptures as applying to an involuntary condition placed upon man. That is not arguable from scripture. We have proven that.

I can't speak for others here but I can say that you haven't proven it to me. Perhaps the term is not directly found in Scripture, the same can be said for the term 'Trinity', and yet the both doctrines are built upon the careful study of many verses.

How so??? You mean you can't genuinely love your kids, wife, et al, would not lay down your life for them? Depravity says you wouldn't, so there is something radically wrong with your understanding or that presented for us to accept as gospel truth.

Again, I think you're misunderstanding Total Depravity. As I said before it does not mean that we cannot perform natural good. It does mean that our good deeds fall far short of the goal. It means we all flunked the course, we all got 'F's' so to speak. So, as an example, it doesn't matter that you got 40% of the test right(you loved your kids) and I got 20% right(I didn't love my kids), we both flunked.

That could erradicate the sin of Adam's trangression is all your above refers to and to what I whole heartly agree. Thus, the distinction needs be made between Sin and sins. Sins we have everything to do with; we are responsible for them, Adam's Sin, we do not. Only Jesus could and did handle that one. Thank God!!

I may be mistaken but I believe this was the error of Pelagianism, perhaps some others could help here.

That leaves us now with the reason for creation and begs the question would Christ still have come to Earth if Adam would not have transgressed? Would the cross still be necessary in that scenario?

Certainly the principle of the cross (some call it the way of the cross) and conformity to the image of Christ has always been in view (see Ephesians 1:4-5 & Romans 8:29). It is the driving principle within the Godhead and is intended to be the principle operating within man. It is the principle of living by, for, and unto Another. The work of the cross was necessary to deal a death blow to the fallen race of Adam. The way of the cross which the new man daily embraces, is an eternal principle. The historic cross was needed because Adam chose not to embrace that principle of the cross.

Although this principle of the eternal Cross is everywhere written into the very fabric of the universe, blinded man, limited by sin and his natural senses, could not understand the Cross-principle of self-giving without an outward demonstration.

For this very reason the Father robed His Son in human flesh and sent Him to walk among men.

In Christ,

Ron

Dear Ormly,

From the beginning, I asked...

I am beginning to wonder what you are seeking. Are you looking for an answer to this question, or just an opportunity to promote your own ideas?

Finally, you have answered in truth:

I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.

I also think you have mistaken me. I have not accused you of anything. Who am I to accuse anyone? I am nothing. This is what I said:

Please do not take offense to this. The philosophy that you are speaking of sounds much like Buddhism.

This was said for your benefit, in hopes that you might be inclined to see if it is true. By researching Buddhism, you might see how Christ was different.

Why not just say: "I never looked at it like that before", Or, "Hmmmm, interesting"?

Because Ormly, we are speaking of an essential Christian doctrine. There is only one way to see it. Jesus Christ came to save people who could not save themselves. Humanity is incapable. There is no way, no possibility, apart from Jesus Christ for anyone to be righteous. Only He is righteous.

You can argue, debate, question, propose all that you want. But anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior believes that Jesus Christ is the only way.

SermonIndex in the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16222&forum=16&0]Statement of Faith[/url] says this: "all human beings are dead in sin and utterly lost"

This is what it means to be a Christian. We believe that we are completely and utterly lost without Christ.

R.C. Sproul said this in His book [url=http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/depravity.html]"Essential Truths of the Christian Faith"[/url]:

"For total depravity means that I and everyone else are depraved or corrupt in the totality of our being. There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin. Our minds, our wills, and our bodies are affected by evil. We speak sinful words, do sinful deeds, have impure thoughts. Our very bodies suffer from the ravages of sin."

In Christ,
Blake

Dear Ormly,

I am sorry if you feel as though I am questioning your salvation. That is not my intention or my place.

*edit*

I think I have said enough. I will leave.

In love,
Blake

Then I invite you to reveal any scripture that remotely states man could not turn to God without the need of some special grace given him to persuade him or otherwise cause him to have faith or anything else necessary in order that he might.

I have listed some Scripture in the other thread on Total Depravity but your response was only to say that it didn't apply.

So perhaps in the defense of the idea that there is a need for special revelation I could call you to the witness stand. How did you come to Christ? Was it by God supernaturally unstopping your ears and opening your blind eyes to know your true condition before Him and to know His complete provision for that condition through the Lord Jesus Christ? Didn't you hear the gospel preached and didn't you say something like, "I see it now, this truly is good news!" and your heart melted with love for the Person of Jesus Christ who had been so wonderfully revealed to you only by the power and grace of our merciful God?

In Christ,

Ron

Nope. I had a God loving Mother tha took me and sent me to Church in my earliest of years. Church at that time was down the street. It was never a problem for me when the time for me to act independent of her.

Dear Ken, I want to be clear on this, does this mean that there was never a crisis moment in your life where you first repented and trusted in Jesus Christ for life? Was there never a time were you died to self and called out to God and had a living encounter with Jesus Christ? Have you always been born-again?

You see, I believe this is a place of death before it's a place of life. Jesus came that we might have life, in my experience a person won't call out for some of that life unless he first sees himself as a dead man.

In Christ,

Ron

"Was Adam created an independent man? Absolutely

Just like Satan was created and independent being and failed to grasp that God is a loving being and wants Satan and man to love Him independently, but cannot.

We need the nature of God to do that. The only way we can get it is to believe on the Name of the Son of God and being born again of Incorruptable Seed of the Father by the Christ that is birthed in you. Now we have a new Father, not Satan but The Father of Jesus Christ and the giver of the Holy Spirit that we might understand this mystery.

Being Born Again of Incorruptable Seed, the mystery:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

The result of this mystery is to present all men perfect in Christ before the God of all, and learning to love Him as He loves us and Gave His Only Begotten Son, the Cross, the Death, the Burial, the Resurrection, the Assention, The Return in the believers, that He is the Son of God and Now lives His life in us, as new creatures in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

All life is redemption or hell, either believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior or we go to Hell with Satan.

Created beings with the self existence or birthed beings with the Father's Nature.

Self existence is death, existence in Christ is Life. Very Simple

Was Adam an independent self? As in Adam all die, so also all in Christ will live forever.

You are now only taking the writings of what pleases you and your agenda and posting as if you are in control. There is only One in control.

You are doing exactly what you say other are in frustration doing to you.

Seek Christ and His Life and The Spirit of God will give you freedom in Him.

In Christ: Phillip