" The Book Of Revelation " ( finally understood )

:-o As i began this Post i thought it appropriate to paste that icon at the beginning !

And why ? Simply because many desire to understand - and to know the things written in this great (finale book) of Holy scripture.

But how many get it right ? that is to say with-out them bungling it, or with-out them wresting it, or with-out the interpretation leading to nothing but ... idle and vain speculations ?

Like many of you i have read the entire book and its contents through from start to finish ( In fact ive read it through many dozens of times ) and ive also downloaded it sermon mp3 format, ive also read other people's takes and views on it. But having said all that thus far - to this day i remain "unconvinced" ( that any one person ) has a good handle on it ( that is with-out THEM putting their own spin on things or to be "intruding" into things they ought not ) or with-out them "doctoring" it ... according to their own interpretation - usually when they have done this - then the whole thing goes off rails ... crashing and burning !! :-x

I well recall being present at a series of meetings where a "theologian" was bringing forth expositional teaching on end-time events and that chiefly - of the "book" of Revelation.

I well remember to this day - how that when he came to the half-way stage REVELATION CHAP 12( that being the birth of the Manchild ) he took a deep breath ... and swallowing down hard on his adams apple, he launched into it and proceeded to instruct the class on what this manchild then "represented" and the interpration - OF IT !! hmmmmm

And He leaning hard - and falling back on his theological background and training - and deciding to "stick" with the "traditional" and conservative view - that being the woman is Mary and the man child is "Jesus" being birthed.

All good and well: but this view has it's inherent problems and flaws ... for instance from Revelation and chapter four onwards - the book addresses "future issues" that are yet to come to pass.

A close look at how chapter four begins - reveals how John sees through (an open door) and is invited by the spirit of God ... to look "ahead" - and see how this great panaroma of events unfolds. ( with history made in advance ).

And besides all this - the (2nd half) of chapter twelve does not concur or "tie in" with the first half of the chapter ...if indeed it is Mary/and Jesus being born (that is to say in this symbolic form of understanding). Now Allow me to elaborate further. For instance the woman after the completion of giving birth ... then immediately flees into the wilderness - and is "fed" for exactly (1260 days ) during this moment in time. !!

So where and how do you see that in scripture -that mary and Joseph fled from Herod and it being "precisely ... for "exactly" 1260 days ??

Anyway Why would a "futuristic book" be taking us back (into time) i ask you ? as though we somehow needed a lesson in "biblical history" again ( that purely - doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever )

God is "GO" forward thinking God ... and he has a "GO" forward plan for his church and FOR HIS CHILDREN ( he knows the beginning to the end - DOES HE NOT ? ) being the Alpha and Omega.

But neither do i (S.O.F) subscribe to the views that the man child is a "call to rally troops to a christian super army !! - and namely that of a super duper army of "overcomers". etc etc

Such movements are well known in the land for example ( the sons of God movement - the latter rain - and Joel's army ) just to name a few heretical movements - and besides all they do is gender towards both pride ... and an "elitism" mind-set.

So i/we reject these calls to spritual pride and to elitism and to that of exclusivness.

But the man child must then mean something ??

But the what and the wherfore - will come to light both ultimately and eventaully.

To him that hath ...shall be given ...
And he shall have abundance !!

To him that hath ears to hear ... then let him hear what the spirit of God saith - to the churches. !!

:-( :-o :-(

sonofthunder wrote:
But the man child means something ??

But what and the wherfore will come to light ultimately and eventaully.

Mark it down .... saints !!

and...?

So i/we reject these calls to spritual pride and to elitism and to that of exclusivness.

sonofthunder,

You are caught by your own words here I am sorry to point out. Greater minds than yours have wrestled mightily with this book and have given far greater insight, that without having to revert to bitterness and your own particular elitism that pit's you 'above' others even if they [i]may[/i] be in error.

No comment here - SUFFICE TO SAY

If im judged to be "bitter" - then let it stand.

Before the GREAT judge ... that stands at the door

Who is my judge anyway - and not no MAN !!

Thanks for your interest in the post - anyhow !

Sometimes people are caught up in various doctrines that promote "exclusivity" and "super army"

Take the JW'S FOR INSTANCE THEY TEACH the 144,OOO
from REVELATION CHAPTER 14 - meaning only tHEY themselves will be purged and saved ( as the only true redeemed ones - IN THE EARTH )

They may have modified that doctrine somewhat over the years ( here and there ) - but basically same belief - just different tones !!

Another well known movement from Indiana years ago that has since capitualated... taught "super army" and that where God's chosen "overcomers" - who will set "creation free" from it's groaning and it's travailing !

Still another well known movement from Kansas city also teaching "latter rain" and the "sons of God" movement - or alais (super army saints) ....which has for the most part been dispersed and their followers scattered abroad ... with (2) of their leading "prophets" found and "caught" to be living in gross sin.

Sometimes people get offended if you touch on their "pet doctrine" that they hold and espouse too - or if you bring an - EXPOSE TO THINGS UNSCRIPTURAL.

It ruffles feathers so tospeak and rattles cages, and so they themselves respond with colourful characterizations of what your supposedly guilty of. ( this behaviour and that attitude ) etc

The truth is known by those who stay with "topic" and contend with the issues discussed, and with-out resorting to characterizations - and the name calling.

If the person is guilty of the offending behaviour - then sobeit - the Lord of hosts will deal with them, and chasten them.

Basically their is a right and wrong way of dis-agreeing with people !!

But With me like Paul it's a very small thing that i should be judged of man - or of man's judgement - for we cannot even judge ourselves properly ( but in God ) therefore judging others by acrimony or characterizations - has to be (spot on) - lest we fall into temptation and a snare.

John the Apostle accused Diotrophes in 3rd John of malicious behaviour and of using pratting words against him and his company. Now either John has it "right" and Diotrophes is indeed guilty of the erring behaviour ( or ) God will deal with the apostle John - for false accusation and name calling ( it's called characterization ) is it not ?

Go figure !!

sonofthunder wrote:
Like many of you i have read the entire book of Revelation and its contents through from start to finish ...I well remember to this day - how that when he came to the half-way stage REVELATION CHAP 12( that being the birth of the Manchild ) he took a deep breath ... and swallowing down hard on his adams apple, he launched into it and proceeded to instruct the class on what this manchild then "represented" and the interpration - OF IT !! hmmmmm

And He leaning hard - and falling back on his theological background and training - and deciding to "stick" with the "traditional" and conservative view - that being the woman is Mary and the man child is "Jesus" being birthed.

All good and well: but this view has it's inherent problems and flaws ... for instance from Revelation and chapter four onwards - the book addresses "future issues" that are yet to come to pass.

A close look at how chapter four begins - reveals how John sees through (an open door) and is invited by the spirit of God ... to look "ahead" - and see how this great panaroma of events unfolds. ( with history made in advance ).

And besides all this - the (2nd half) of chapter twelve does not concur or "tie in" with the first half of the chapter ...if indeed it is Mary/and Jesus being born (that is to say in this symbolic form of understanding). Now Allow me to elaborate further. For instance the woman after the completion of giving birth ... then immediately flees into the wilderness - and is "fed" for exactly (1260 days ) during this moment in time. !!

So where and how do you see that in scripture -that mary and Joseph fled from Herod and it being "precisely ... for "exactly" 1260 days ??
But the man child must then mean something ??

But the what and the wherfore - will come to light both ultimately and eventaully.

To him that hath ...shall be given ...
And he shall have abundance !!

To him that hath ears to hear ... then let him hear what the spirit of God saith - to the churches. !!

Thunderation, Stephen!

You sound a bit frustrated, but I don't think it's bitterness. More like my Dad get's when things don't go well - tired and angry that he's wasted all the time....

Put with less frustration, the 1260 days is the latter half of the Tribulation!

And who is God going to protect from the evil dragon and his minions? Israel!!!

Or at least, so was my understanding. Nothing else matches with 1260 days of specific persecution of a woman - The Church of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, commonly known as Jews, though highly inaccurate, birthing a remnant, which must be protected from the Devil, in order to go into the Millenium.

It can't be us 'Chillens' of God - we're either raptured, dead, or in hiding in small groups, although how it is that any of us Christians get's past Lucifer and his merry little friends I haven't yet figured out when the Devil's got permission to persecute us all, to death, if necessary, and it will be.

So, if it's not us, and it's not the pagans, who would God protect? Only Israel, or a part of her.

Presumably, since the only safe place on earth during the Trib is in Petra and Bosrah (Over Jordan's way from Israel), again, presumably after the battle of Gog/Magog clears out 5/6's of the Palestinian/Arab/Russian confederation that comes down on Israel, and is routed by God, through Michael, the angel who protects Israel.

Otherwise, the Israeli's will have to sneak into Jordan, which they could do.

Now you know why I'm talking Gog/Magog on another thread - I'd like to prove this theory, but I'm not a scholarly scholar, just a regular one. (I know it, but I can't prove it...yet!)

Where is this information? All over the bible. Unfortunately, it's in bits and pieces!

Now, with this theory, however, I can read all of Revelation and it makes sense.

There is, of course, a hidden prophecy that will preumably come to light during the Millenium, since John was told to eat it. And no one knows for sure who Babylon is going to be - a church, a place, both who knows. Of course with the Roman Catholic Church getting all ecumenical on us, and now, pretty much controlling Italy at this point, it's starting to look like the old tried and true Holy Roman Empire bit. Edit(And the Anglicans getting all cosy with Rome, just at the time they 'happen' to be running out of oil in the North Sea.)End Edit.

Which is why I'm looking for info on Gog/Magog not being the kickoff of Armeggeddon, but the war that the Anti-Christ comes to power out of, after Michael stomps a local invasion, going after control of Israel's Oil (Inland) and Natural Gas (Offshore)(Found but not pumping yet.)

I really can't imagine China coming all the way to Israel, unless they want the oil and gas there as well as the Arab and Persian Countries they'll be rolling over, Euphrates dried up, and all, perhaps in that nasty heat in the Vial Judgements. You know, no rain for years in the area? (First half Trib, Witnesses: Choose two from Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Ezekial (all missing bodies on earth) can stop the rain - Elijah was good at that, and do all the other plagues ever mentioned in the Bible, plus some new ones, and flame throwers in their mouths. It would be interesting to see, but under those circumstances I'd be trying to get to Petra along with everyone else in the world that believes the Witnesses.

Problem is, you have to read all the Trib stuff out there, even the novels that are scripturally based, and then check and recheck the Bible, and even then, after you've lost the notes you didn't take, like I lost the ones I didn't take, except in my head, which is not photographic, except for content, I could be wrong.

I don't think I am, but I'll have to write a book to prove it, and I've got other stuff God wants me to do first.

Still, I quest on, I quest on.

By the way, Stephen, is it Steven or Steffun? I like to hear people's name right when I'm reading.

Hope that helps a little.

Blessings,

Forrest

UniqueWebRev wrote:

Hope that helps a little.

Are you kidding?

I'm glad you know what you were talking about, because I'm not even going to pretend I understand you.

Oh well.

Back to Revelation 1v1.

God bless.

Oh, Enid,

How I would love to write that book!

Don't start in Revelations. Start where I did - with Hal Lindsey, The Left Behind Series (Reasonably accurate, although they never show the Devil I know, just some nasty guy with a lot of sweet talk, and good looks, and hardly any demons to help fight off the lusty, trusty, Post Trib Force!),Grant Jeffrey, Tim Le Hayes serious sudy of Revelation, his lesser study for non-serious Bible Scholars, (Still actually quite good), and all the other people with a Pre-Trib View - the others don't make sense in light of God protecting only the Remnant of the Israeli's that flee to the protected area, plainly spelled out in the Left Behind series, with suitable scriptures. I know - I've read all of them twice, and several over and over - there's some good preaching here and there after book 4 or 5. Or maybe it's 3 or 4.

Seriously, trying to understand Revelation without reading all, and I mean all, of all the junk out there, and I've done my best, and you have a lot of trouble picturing what I'm talking about.

Take all this stuff, ignore the trash, and look at the Scriptures. Good resource material for a long Bible Study. And with your Bible, you check their stuff to see if it makes sense, which, some of it does, which is why they are published, and I am not.

On the other hand, I haven't been writing about it for over 30 years. Reading it, studying it, but alas, not writing about it.

And Enid, the Left Behind movies....Yuck, compared to the books. In fact, hardly understandable without the Left Behind Novels, which are entertaining, if unlikely, in view of what the Devil is realllllly like. I know Him personally. Take my word for it.

Go to a second hand store, and pick them up on the cheap - I had to pay full price for the last 3 books, because I'm impatient, but that was a few years ago.

And His prequel on the Rapture, the Judgement of our works, his ideas on what our mansions will be like - very imaginative! And, at least to me, since I'm used to La Haye after all this time, fun to read about.

Love and Kisses,

Forrest

P.S. I'm allowed Love and Kisses because Enid and I are both Ladies!

sonofthunder,

It's one thing to critique somebody else's positions on the book of Revelation and show the error of their ways. However, unless you are going to put forth a positive interpretation to replace their erroneous interpretation, then you are entering into error yourself, as you are offering nothing edifying to the rest of the saints. And to get excited over hearing yourself talk is simply pride.

If anybody wants some serious books on eschatology, that aren't all wild and confusing as this thread is, I highly recommend the following authors: David Baron, Adolph Saphir, George Ladd, and Art Katz. But before studying things pertaining to the end in detail, I highly recommend one be a well rounded Christian first, and be grounded in sound doctrine and victorious living. For without these elements, you will only get caught up in wrangling about words and things you don't understand, even though you make bold assertions that would make it look as if you did (see 1 Timothy 1), which will only lead to the ruin of your hearers.

It ruffles feathers so tospeak and rattles cages, and so they themselves respond with [u]colourful characterizations of what your supposedly guilty of[/u]. ( this behaviour and that attitude ) etc

"[i]I well recall being present at a series of meetings where a "theologian" was bringing forth expositional teaching on end-time events and that chiefly - of the "book" of Revelation".

"I well remember to this day - how that when he came to the half-way stage REVELATION CHAP 12( that being the birth of the Manchild ) he took a deep breath ... and swallowing down hard on his adams apple, he launched into it and proceeded to instruct the class on what this manchild then "represented" and the interpration - OF IT !! hmmmmm "[/i]

therefore judging others by acrimony or characterizations - has to be (spot on) - lest we fall into temptation and a snare.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"And He leaning hard - and falling back on his theological background and training ..."

"[i]The truth is known by those who stay with "topic" and contend with the issues discussed, and with-out resorting to characterizations - and the name calling.[/i]"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But With me like Paul it's a very small thing that i should be judged of man -

1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

You sound a bit frustrated, but I don't think it's bitterness.

Correction, it's pride.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Mat 12:36,37

Don't start in Revelations. Start where I did - with Hal Lindsey, The Left Behind Series

:-?

JaySaved,

I noticed that too, but I just ignored it.

Revelation 1v1, 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants-things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John.

If we are going to study any book of the Bible, we start with the word of God, after which we can look at other books, commentaries etc.

But, realise, whoever wrote the book etc, will still be flawed in their understanding unless it was given by an angel, as was John in the book of Revelation.

Realise also, it says in Revelation, things which must shortly take place.

That was two thousand years ago.

Guess the hour glass is running out of time.

Our focus should be on the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and on obeying His commission of making disciples of all nations.

God bless.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2411&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Edgar F. Parkyns on Church History - 10 Sessions[/url]

A real eye opening and challenging series towards perspective on not only this book, but what was believed throughout our wonderful history, this great inheritance of ours.

crsschk wrote:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2411&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Edgar F. Parkyns on Church History - 10 Sessions[/url]

A real eye opening and challenging series towards perspective on not only this book, but what was believed throughout our wonderful history, this great inheritance of ours.

[b]THE WAGON TRAIN[/b]
An Allegory
By Edgar Parkyns

During the years 1850 to 1890 there was a tremendous trek westwards across the plains from the eastern United States to the far west as folks looked for new homes in that magnificent territory. I want you to imagine that a young bridegroom has gone out west to prepare a home for himself and his bride, and in due course he is going to receive her. This is an analogy of Jesus going to prepare a place to receive His Bride, the Church.

The bride stays in New York for some time getting ready, and then she joins a wagon train going west. It's rather a mixed wagon train, with all kinds of people in it; but the only way to cross that area is in such company. Her bridegroom has sent her a letter from away out west, but the letter doesn't arrive in time to meet her as she sets off. It reaches her after she has begun her journey and has already experienced a few skirmishes with Red Indians in the Great Lakes area. She finds that her letter has been opened - those responsible in the camp have examined it but, not being able to understand much of it because it is written in code, they let her have it.

As soon as camp is formed for the night and she can get away into her covered wagon, she lights the paraffin lamp and reads her beloved's letter. How her heart thrills to the glorious description of him on the opening page. And then there are some very straight words of exhortation to her, how she is to behave and keep herself pure, and she takes all that to heart for she realises that there are many temptations as well as dangers on this journey.
But then she comes to a section of the letter, which absolutely bewilders her, about beasts and horns and mountains and all kinds of horrors. It just doesn't make sense, and so she hurries through that and comes to the closing part. She is very thrilled with what she reads there - it describes the time when her beloved will meet her. He comes riding onto the scene and takes her to be with himself. There is a description of the heavenly home, and the glories that will follow. She is thrilled with her letter and puts it away with a thankful heart.

At the earliest opportunity, next time they've formed camp, the wagons drawn into a ring, she gets away and looks into her letter again; and it puzzles her, all that middle section. Whoever is this woman in scarlet? Whatever is that terrible beast? "I hope I don't meet him", she thinks. Day after day she puzzles over the letter, and becomes more and more separated from the rest of the camp. They wonder whatever is happening to her, until someone says "Look here, there are a couple of Jesuit priests in the camp, why don't you go to one of them and tell him what's troubling you?" She says, "Thank you, I think I'll do just that."

She goes across to meet one of the Jesuit priests. He says he's been waiting for her to come to him as he's seen that she's very troubled, and asks what it is that she wants to say. "Well", she says, "it's like this - I have a letter..." "You'd better give me your whole confession", he says, "then I can put you right." "Oh no", she replies, "it's not that. It's a letter from my husband. It's a beautiful letter but the middle part puzzles me so badly I can't make head or tail of it."

He says "My dear, I know your husband quite well, and the leader of our whole party knows him very well, he's one of his closest friends. So let me have a look at your letter, I'll be able to explain it for you." So this Jesuit, whose name happens to be Alcazar - he's a Spaniard - takes the letter and looks at it. In due course he comes back to her and tells her there's nothing to worry about as her husband was writing about the skirmishes with the Red Indians that took place just as they were leaving New York, only the letter didn't reach her in time.

When she requests her letter back, the priest replies, "Well, I don't think it's good for you, it's obviously been making you ill" and it is with great difficulty that she finally gets it back with half a promise not to read it any more. But still she is not content. She thinks, "What on earth did my beloved write this long letter to me for, if it was all about those few little fights with Indians that we had at the beginning of our journey?"

Eventually she goes to the other Jesuit priest, whose name is Ribera, and tells him the story and he again offers to hear her confession. She explains about her letter and how the other priest said it covered things, which had already happened, and she gives her reasons why she doesn't feel that's a sensible explanation. He takes her letter, and when in due course he returns it, he tells her that the middle part is all about the future - after her husband has met her and taken her away. He says "You'll be raptured; I know it's not written plainly in the letter, but then of course it's one of those letters; you'll be caught away before any of these things happen."

"But what about the great beast that comes out of the sea?" she asks. "You'll never see him, he lives in a lake on the far side of the Rocky Mountains. Now come along and enjoy yourself with the rest of us."

So she thanks him and accepts this very reasonable explanation, especially on such strong authority, and presently joins in the fun. There's a magnificent woman in scarlet there, who introduces her to the leader of the group, who has been longing to meet her. They have some grand parties together and soon she's in the thick of the fun and wondering why she ever moped away trying to understand that letter when it didn't really concern her at all.

She gradually forgets the promises she made to her beloved; they fade into the background. She becomes more and more enamoured with the leader of the party. He tells her about her husband and says, "In fact, I'm his very best friend, I know all his secrets, and I'm here operating on his behalf so you can trust me." And she does trust him, until one night after the revelry she's almost seduced, and flees shaken and in tears. She rushes out to the perimeter of the camp and sees against the skyline two men keeping guard. She watches them for some time and then they see her and, drawing near, they say "You should be back in camp you know, it's not safe for you out here."

She says she can't go back as she can't trust anybody. The guards reply "You must go back, your husband told you to go this way - you'll just have to go." "But I don't know what to do, can you help me? It's my husband's letter that puzzles me." "Well" they say, "I dare say we could explain that letter to you. We know your husband well and we promised to keep guard of this camp and look after you. But wouldn't it be better if you found out the meaning for yourself? If we explain it to you, you may not believe us. Have you got any of your husband's old letters?" "Yes", she says "a whole bundle full!"

"Right - re-read your husband's old letters and look for clues, and we think you'll find the meaning of this one you're holding. Read them, Genesis to Jude, the old letters - the clues are all there."

So she goes back, thanking them, keeping herself separate from the revelries of the camp, especially from that scarlet woman. She looks in the old letters and begins to find clue after clue. She looks again at her husband's letter and it begins to make sense. She realises that the very people who deceived and almost seduced her were written about in the letter and she failed to recognise it.

From then on, she begins to notice the terrain as they cross a river, as they reach a mountain, as they meet a dangerous party of Indians, and she looks in the letter and there they are fitting into place one after another. Oh the excitement of it! She's getting near the end of the journey; she can keep herself pure now as she looks at the letter and watches events as they pass by so rapidly; her whole attitude is changed. She now has a new joy and assurance and feels that she is in control of the situation. She watches those two men on the exterior of the camp and signals to them happily. They can see now that she is going to endure to the end.
Situations grow tense, the enemy is drawing in and the evil in the camp is coming to light. Disaster seems to be rushing in on every hand. Suddenly, over the horizon, comes her beloved with a thousand cavalry, riding across the hills to her rescue to take her home. At last her troubles are over - the letter has done its work.

May I also recommend the following series on the Book of Revelation, by [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]David Pawson[/url]? Pawson is one of those rare men of God, who offers well balanced data, and while giving his conclusions, also gives clear "permission" to disagree. Overall, a well rounded dealing with many of the issues and controversies of the Book.

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Don't start in Revelations. Start where I did - with Hal Lindsey, The Left Behind Series (Reasonably accurate, although they never show the Devil I know, just some nasty guy with a lot of sweet talk, and good looks, and hardly any demons to help fight off the lusty, trusty, Post Trib Force!),Grant Jeffrey, Tim Le Hayes serious sudy of Revelation, his lesser study for non-serious Bible Scholars, (Still actually quite good), and all the other people with a Pre-Trib View - the others don't make sense in light of God protecting only the Remnant of the Israeli's that flee to the protected area, plainly spelled out in the Left Behind series, with suitable scriptures. I know - I've read all of them twice, and several over and over - there's some good preaching here and there after book 4 or 5. Or maybe it's 3 or 4.

Please Forrest, check out the series that Mike and I have put forward. When all you have is Lindsay and LaHaye to go by, the only controversy you see is "pre vs post" trib. However, the tribulation is only a minor issue. There is a plethora of differing interpretations of the end-time material presented in Scripture (particularly Revelation and Daniel). You may also be surprised at both the scholarship and simplicity of both Parkyns' and Pawson's work.

I find that my stance sits somewhere in between the two of them, being a kind of Premillenial Historicist of sorts (if you don't know what I mean, then you had better check out the two series to find out)8-).

Forget the quote and throw out all scholars renditions (particually from the 20th century and today). Tyndale was a man of mighty knowledge in the scripture and he obviously let's the words of God do the talking.
Thorow Revelacion different themes and symbols are placed forth. LIke the whore that rides upon the beast and the 144,000 washed white in the bloude of the Lamb.
However, God's scripture is revealed thorow the Holy Ghost, and it's up to him for you to understand it.
There is a lot of pain to be poured out by the seven angels unto men who repentnot of their dedes. Tyndale version 1526 moderntype faithofgod.net. Here's the bible leaf:
Revalacion 17:1-8 ¶ And there came one of the seven angels, which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me: I will shew thee the judgement of the great whore, that sitteth upon many waters,
2 with whom have committed fornication the kings of the earth, so that the inhabiters of the earth, are drunken with the wine of her fornication.
3 And he carried me away into the wilderness in the spirit. And I saw a woman sit upon a rose colored beast full of names of blasphemy, which had ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and rose colour, and decked with gold, precious stone, and pearls, and had a cup of gold in her hand, full of abomination, and filthiness of her fornication.
5 And in her forehead was a name written, a mystery, great Babylon the mother of whoredom and abominations of the earth.
6 And I saw the wife drunken with the blood of saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Iesu. And when I saw her: I wondered with great marvel.

Remember the merchants weeping over her? Try this for filthines of her fornication; Nahum 3
Ezekiel 27:28 (1537 faithofgod.net Matthew's)
The suburbs shall shake at the loud cry of thy shipmen.
29All whirry men, and all mariners upon the sea, shall leap out of their boats, and set themselves upon the land.
30
They shall lift up their voice because of thee, and make a lamentable cry. They shall cast dust upon their heads, and lie down in the ashes.
27:31
They shall shave themselves, and put sackcloth upon them for thy sake. They shall mourn for thee with heartfull sorrow,
32and heavy lamentation, yea their children also shall weep for thee. Alas, what city hath so been destroyed in the sea, as Tyre is?
Don't believe this as a picture of the harlot on the beast?

Hosea 7 is a companion of revelacion; the men blasphemed God and repented not of their deeds?
Hosea 7:2
They consider not in their hearts that I remember all their wickedness. They go about with their own inventions, but I see them well enough.
7:3
They make the king and the princes, to have pleasure in their wickedness and lies.
7:4
All these burn in advoutry, as it were an oven that the baker heateth, when he hath left kneading, till the dough be leavened.
7:5
Even so goeth it this day with our kings and princes, for they begin to be wood drunken thorow wine: they use familiarity with such as deceive them

With love I proclaim it brethren, this is to be used to stop the mouths of all those that corrupt the picture of revalacion and make the prophets words to be already completly fulfilled.
And try the boke of Daniel, you will realize that he has already changed times and lawes.

Amen to the Lord Jesus Christ

Edgar F. Parkyns on Church History - 10 Sessions

A real eye opening and challenging series towards perspective on not only this book, but what was believed throughout our wonderful history, this great inheritance of ours.

I have been tremendously blessed by Mr. Parkyns lessons on Revelation. I highly recommend this study for anyone interested in the book of Revelation.

I have not heard of Pawson, I will have to take a look at that.

"Revelations" is clearly the most confusing, confounding, misinterpreted, argued over and downright Unrevealing book in the entire Bible.

I have never read "Revelations" before but if I do I will keep your opinion in mind. ;-)

Psalm73 wrote:
Forget the quote and throw out all scholars renditions (particually from the 20th century and today). Tyndale was a man of mighty knowledge in the scripture and he obviously let's the words of God do the talking.
Thorow Revelacion different themes and symbols are placed forth. LIke the whore that rides upon the beast and the 144,000 washed white in the bloude of the Lamb.
However, God's scripture is revealed thorow the Holy Ghost, and it's up to him for you to understand it.
There is a lot of pain to be poured out by the seven angels unto men who repentnot of their dedes. Tyndale version 1526 moderntype faithofgod.net....With love I proclaim it brethren, this is to be used to stop the mouths of all those that corrupt the picture of revalacion and make the prophets words to be already completly fulfilled.
And try the boke of Daniel, you will realize that he has already changed times and lawes.

Amen to the Lord Jesus Christ

Dear brother,

How I do love English, and Old English, and Shakespearian English!

I absolutely couldn't stop laughing it was so much fun to read! What a delight you are!

Thank you,

Forrest

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Don't start in Revelations. Start where I did - with Hal Lindsey, The Left Behind Series (Reasonably accurate, although they never show the Devil I know, just some nasty guy with a lot of sweet talk, and good looks, and hardly any demons to help fight off the lusty, trusty, Post Trib Force!),Grant Jeffrey, Tim Le Hayes serious sudy of Revelation, his lesser study for non-serious Bible Scholars, (Still actually quite good), and all the other people with a Pre-Trib View - the others don't make sense in light of God protecting only the Remnant of the Israeli's that flee to the protected area, plainly spelled out in the Left Behind series, with suitable scriptures. I know - I've read all of them twice, and several over and over - there's some good preaching here and there after book 4 or 5. Or maybe it's 3 or 4.

Please Forrest, check out the series that Mike and I have put forward. When all you have is Lindsay and LaHaye to go by, the only controversy you see is "pre vs post" trib. However, the tribulation is only a minor issue. There is a plethora of differing interpretations of the end-time material presented in Scripture (particularly Revelation and Daniel). You may also be surprised at both the scholarship and simplicity of both Parkyns' and Pawson's work.

I find that my stance sits somewhere in between the two of them, being a kind of Premillenial Historicist of sorts (if you don't know what I mean, then you had better check out the two series to find out)8-).

I do know, you sweet thing you!

I said, throw out the trash, and read the scriptures presented!!!!!!!

But you know, the junk does give a decent overview of the 'mainline' viewpoint, if that's who they are.

I read this stuff to tear it apart!!!

But anyway, Aaron, always delighted to hear a different study of the Book of Revelation. I get a few crumbs from everywhere to store away, and think about.

Praying for you & Mike

Blessings,

Forrest

Oh, Aaron - what fun!

Just remember, I have to download all this at 56K - I live in the country - technicly, for California, anywhere you don't get cable, water, electricity, and gas before you build is the country.

Blessings,

Forrest

bubbaguy wrote:
perusing this string on Revelations it is clear that y'all just haven't gotten the joke that God is playing on all serious Bible readers.

"Revelations" is clearly the most confusing, confounding, misinterpreted, argued over and downright Unrevealing book in the entire Bible.

God is having a big joke --a full bellylaugh-- and you haven't gotten the point yet.

bubbaguy

PS. the important point of the Bible is that Love, through the sacrifice of Christ, will endure and win in the end. why does anybody need more than this???

I know. But I love the Bible and I've got a lot of time on my hands - disabled, stuck in my house most of the time, very boring, so...I dig into the stuff, and the stuff about the stuff. And the stuff that everyone else wants me to read.

On my site, though, I just talk about Jesus, and who He is, and why He came.

A lot easier to explain, you see.

Blessings,

Forrest

I'm curious, has anyone here looked into partial-preterism?

You would mock the Lorde's word, because of modern scholars. The word of God has been minished and added to in the centuries since 1526 N.T. And that those words were strong but the crudenes thereof the devil capitalized upon.
In that, often y and wt were oft present, so good scholars knew that the firstfruits of God's word needed to be cleaned and made easier for us today. I use this version because of the word being a doubleedgedswerde that's mighty in operation and never comes back into God's handes in vayne. Once again the simple faithofgod.net 1526 N.T

2 John 1:9-11-9 Whosoever transgresseth and bideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that endureth in the doctrine of Christ, hath both the father, and the son.
10 ¶ If there come any unto you and bring not this learning, him receive not to house: neither bid him God speed.
11 For he that biddeth him God speed, is part taker of his evil deeds

Does thou not knowest the learning? I mean the turn from idols, abhor wickedness, cast away fornicacion, and love not the world, neither the things in the world. Remember the beast and his image? Is not everyman iudged accordynge to works?
I John 3:11-13 ¶ For this is the tidings, that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another:
12 not as Cain which was of the wicked and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? because his own works were evil, and his brother’s good.
13 Marvel not my brethren if the world hate you

Are we better than they? No in no wise, for we have already proved both jewes and gentylls are all under sin Romans 3:9 there is none righteous no not one, they are all gone out of the way, they are all unprofitable, there is none that doeth good not one.
I speak Paul, to show you through John the doctrine of Christ, also symbolize hard thorow Revalations? Bearing witness of the law and the prophets?

Love the brethren Praise the Lord
Tarry

Forrest,

I don't think I know anything about your situation other than from a few posts I have read today. If you are willing, would you share (in a new post) what you have gone through.

I would like to know.

By the way, if you have already shared, just please direct me to that.

God Bless.

Never mind, I just noticed your website. :-)

Jay, there's not much about what happened to me, and the lover's triangle I entered into. Jesus was first, so I was safe, the evill one wanted me bad.

It's an immensely long story. For me, tribulation starte before I was out of diapers.

Do you really want to read pages and pages?

My life has been very complicated...made to order to witness about almost any subject.

I'm an extreme case of a lot of things.

You really want me to open Pandora's box? Does anyone else?

I have to write it all down still, and that's a lot of work unless people really want to read it it.

Forrest

Share only what you are led to share by God. Share only what you feel would be beneficial to your brothers and sisters in Christ and might be used by God to touch someone who doesn't know Christ.

There are several people here that have looked into preterism, I for one have. To me Partial Preterism, like the Pre and Post Tribulation teachings has too many problems with it, it creates too many questions, whereas Full Preterism does not. I am currently studying parttime the Full Preterist viewpoint straight from the word, let the bible interpret the bible,and throw away the commentaries. IMHO

Yes, partial-preterism does raise a lot of questions. I used to be the typical pre-trib futurist, but then I stumbled upon partial-preterism. The more I looked into it, the more I agreed with it. I was fairly convinced it was right until recently when, having dug deeper into the word, I'm seeing all sorts of troubling passages for partial-preterists. In light of this, I've gone back to the standard, "I don't know" position!!!

Concerning full preterism, I believe it is very bad...how much have you looked into it? Do you know that they deny any future resurrection or coming of Christ?

btw, -[url=http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/index.html]this[/url]- is the best site I have found that discusses preterism.

Also, -[url=http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/simmons-kurt_p_07_01.html]this[/url]- is one of the articles that showed me the problems with full preterism.

And you are very right about letting the Bible interpret the Bible! :-)

May God be with us and lead us into truth,
Nile

UniqueWebRev:

Forest, you have a responsibility to give to the body of Christ what The Holy Spirit has given you. Take notes, write, write, write, and as line upon line and precept upon precept bring truth and understanding for the Body, we can all be blessed by the different ways each of us is used in the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit and the Gifted One Jesus Christ in us, to build up His Body. These gifts are distributed as the Holy Spirit wishes, don't wait start now. Thank you for your truths and hard work searching the mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit that is in us.

In Christ: Phillip

So be it - but I'll have to pray over this, so it may take a few days, then I'll post it in Miracles that follow the Plow, since that is where testimonies seem to go.

Thak you for the encouragement. I'm not reluctant, just flummoxed on what to talk about.
I've accumulated so much experience that is used by the Holy spirit in the strangest ways, and I've never hesitated to speak of myself, so you know I'm not shy.

The Holy Spirit has told me where to start, and how, even as I write this, so I'll follow those directions, and let the Spirit lead me.

Being short on sleep, and needing to write an article tommorrow for my site, I will have to let you all know when I post, but it will be early next week.

Who knows...it may start with my article for Sunday?

Thanks again,

Blessings,

Forrest

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
May I also recommend the following series on the Book of Revelation, by [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]David Pawson[/url]? Pawson is one of those rare men of God, who offers well balanced data, and while giving his conclusions, also gives clear "permission" to disagree. Overall, a well rounded dealing with many of the issues and controversies of the Book.

Aaron, downloading #2 tonight....

Didn't want you to think I forgot, or was neglectful of your advice!

Blessings,

Forrest

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Aaron, downloading #2 tonight....

Didn't want you to think I forgot, or was neglectful of your advice!

Blessings,

Forrest

Hey, all's good. It was just a recommendation, your loss if you ignore it. :-P

By the way, I had downloaded over 5Gb from this place before I switched over to ADSL. So, you get no sympathy from me. Downloading sermons is that thing your computer does really well while you sleep. ;-)

Regarding Pawson, if you'd rather read, then maybe get a hold of [url=http://www.amazon.com/When-Jesus-Returns-David-Pawson/dp/0340612118]When Jesus Returns[/url], which is the book form of the recommended preaching series.

Compliments wrote:

Concerning full preterism,...how much have you looked into it? Do you know that they deny any future resurrection or coming of Christ?

Hmmm...you could have something on that, afterall perfection comes at the resurrection and then and only then are we complete in Him.

Thats food for thought.

I've got two words for anyone who embraces preterism, "wailing wall" ;-)

[b]1[/b] And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings [i]are here[/i]!
[b]2[/b] And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? [u]there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.[/u]
[b]Mark 13:1-2[/b]

Ooops...!

bubbaguy wrote:
PS. the important point of the Bible is that Love, through the sacrifice of Christ, will endure and win in the end. why does anybody need more than this???

More to the point, bub, why would Christ, who exhorted us against speaking idle words, give us "more than this" in his Revelation, if it was void of relevance?

WE are complete in Him now.

Colossians 2:4-14 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (((((For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him,))))) which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 2:11 ¶ In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

We don't need to wait until the rapture and our new bodies to be complete in Him. For it is the Christ in you that makes us perfect, which happened at re-birth, giving us Life in the Nature of God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. NOW! We are complete, we are being completed, we will be complete.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

In Christ NOW: Phillip

why do you need more Revelations that this????!

This idea would qualify as a "canon within a canon," and is heresy. All of God's word is inspired, and all of God's word is profitable. These things were not written for mere fancy, but for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages have come.

if humankind is to survive, then Christian love is needed worldwide. This is the whole point, isn't it?

The commandment given to love our enemies is not meant for human survival, rather, it is meant for righteousness. In fact, the commandment to love our enemies might cost us our very lives! Indeed, it did cost Christ His!

bubbaguy wrote:
Christ's exhortations such as "love your enemies" profoundly changed the calculus of human relations and if humankind is to survive, then Christian love is needed worldwide. This is the whole point, isn't it?

why do you need more Revelations that this????!

Firstly, the Book of Revelation starts off by claiming to be Christ's own revelation to the church. If it's contents are accurate, then it would be the only book of the Bible that it actually written by Jesus, as dictated by John. If this is the case, then it is not a matter of why I require there to be a "Book of Revelation", but why did Christ reveal something to us?

Regarding "loving your enemies" (which would probably be better put as "loving your neighbour", as this would include enemies and friends, but that would be mere semantics) the Revelation unveils the final proof that, apart from Him, we are totally unfitted to love to this capacity. Not only that, but there is a final unveiling of the fact that humanity will logically choose selfishness over God, regardless of circumstances. It dispels the myth that people will tend to turn to God in a crisis, but will curse God for causing them to suffer. And this is only scratching the surface...

Ultimately bubbaguy, with all due respect, who do you think you are to set yourself over the Word of God, to decide what to, and not to include into his statements, especially based upon human logic? The proverb says that you are to "trust in the Lord always, lean not on your understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths." Sadly, it would seem that you don't feel that you need your paths directed by Him.

Delete - server error

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jhn 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

I don't believe Jesus is going to start now, loosing those the Father gives Him.

How can someone loose what is not theirs in the first place. A new life in Christ. Salvation most sure. Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

If salvation was able to be obtained by what we do then we could loose our salvation. Since salvation is not obtained by self works, either is it lost by self sin, for Christ is now our righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:24-31 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Can God call and not be responded to? God's choosing is perfect and all will respond.
Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

No person will ever choose God, without God's intervention and He draw and drag us to Christ.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

In Christ, Who not loose any that are given Him.
How can God give birth and then abort His precious Seed, Christ. The child cannot abort itself. That is why abortion is murder.

Loosing ones salvation would be killing Jesus Christ again. God has said that will not happen.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Just as we live in Christ, we live unto God.

Phillip

LittleGift wrote:

Compliments wrote:
Oh, who am I kidding. The Old Testament is not fulfilled. Some are certainly, but we are living in the last days. Gods chosen people, the children of Israel will be the main focus in the future and God will visit her again and rule in Jerusalem. The anti Christ will arise and sign a peace treaty with Israel for 7 years thus fulfilling Daniel 9:27. But we won't be here for we are awaiting the rapture that will catch us away. Oh that day will be great, and it almost upon us. I can hardly wait to get our new body in that resurrection. The Kingdom of God is awaiting us in Heaven, and our Mansion which is bright and beautiful will be on the hilltop next door to Jesus. We'll all be perfect and complete in Him on that day. Oh but I see, New Jerusalem coming down from the sky landing on top of Old Jerusalem, in that day old things will have passed away, behold all things will have become new. It will be the dawn of a new Day, the Day Star will arise in our hearts.

What a day that will be.

I'm not at all convinced that the Bible teaches we won't be here when the Antichrist comes. If we will be here, that teaching is highly dangerous because we might even mistake him for the real Christ...

That's the way things seem to be going in the Christian world. Its possible for even the elect to be deceived...

Now you HAVE convinced me you're not a full Preterist :-P

...Or were you being sarcastic in what you wrote? It does sound as if you might be....?????

That's the problem with communicating withou tone of voice or expression being known!

In Him

Jeannette

Other than the blessing attached to reading Revelation, and the plan it seems to lay out for the end days, which seem very close to us now, what with all the countries in the right treaty groups, the Roman Catholic Church gaining ground politically in Italy, and religiously with the Anglicans; China Actually large enough to have the right size army, and other details that are true now, I would delighted to skip the Trib and even the Rapture, if it were possible. Nor do I mind dying for Jesus if it will get me out of this body, and Home!

I looked at the Preterist nonsense, and was surprised that anyone takes this as more than entertainment of the most foolish kind.

Why does anyone bother with this? Do you want to be misled?

Search and read every seperate viewpoint that fits the scriptures in full, and with complete understanding as to it's biblical correctness before moving on to the next. Else, what is the point of having a Bible?

There is so much bull---- in our world today, so many followers of the Evil One trying to lead people astray, that I'm growing less and less interested in being right about what I can know nothing of for sure. It's interesting for speculation, but I caught some major boners in the simplest definition of words on the preterist sites.

But, if there is something in Scripture that can be read plainly, and it makes sense to a plain reading, with no twisting everything to fit, why not keep it?

I believe wholeheartedly in the rapture because Paul taught on it, and he was an Apostle of God.
And I believe the rest of the Bible, because God wrote it.

If the rapture doesn't come at or before the Tribulation, that is also plainly set forth in scripture, well, I'll be disappointed, but I will wait for it, or my death, or get to Petra, and then wait things out.

Now, if neither the Rapture nor the Trib happen, I will be stunned, but only that we mistook one set of events for another.

But I don't think we have.

In any case, I'm happy to be growing older all the time. It shortens my time to Jesus in the worst scenario, and in the best, it won't matter.

Do, please, stop wasting your time with these views that are meant to lead you astray!

Blessings,

Forrest

P.S. My testimony is on the Miracle that follows the Plow.

Compliments wrote:
The full preterist view has many boners that stick out indeed, but the partial preterist view has more truth to it than the pre or post tribulation rapture theories. What the Partial Preterist believe is that all things are fulfilled accept for the Second Coming, Resurrection, and the Judgement. While Full Preterist believe that all has been fulfilled and we are living in the Kingdom Age to which Christ rules and riegns in the hearts of men.

I wonder if you have listened to either the Parkyns or Pawson series that were recommended? Pawson is good, because he faithfully deals with each stance (Idealist, Preterist, Historicist, Pre, Post and Amillenial). I have to admit that I don't fully agree with his conclusions, but then, at the same time, I do (this probably sounds weird, but you'd have to hear the series to get why I say this).

Parkyns' way of interpreting historical events, in the light of Revelation's imagery makes some sound points. His way of saying, "What would you expect to read, considering this happened in history?" approach is certainly very convincing.

I'll also put forward the following article [url="https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5497&forum=36#39895"]Future History of the Church[/url] and sermon [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11893]Midrash[/url] by [url="www.moriel.org"]J Jacob Prasch[/url], for some understanding of Jewish Hermeneutics, particularly in the area of eschatology? Pawson does touch on this "light to heavy" theme in his series, but if you are unaware of it, it may be easily missed. This principle, in effect can tie the Historicist and Premillenial views together into a logical statement (in fact, it can also include Preterism and Idealism).

At the end of the day, it is very tempting to try to fit everything into nice neat little boxes, for easy digestion. This was the mistake that the Pharisees made when interpreting the Messianic prophecies, leading to them missing Meshiach when he came.

You know, I'm not sure I believe anyone's explanation of anything.

Still, that doesn't give me the right to snap at you. My apologies, my brother. I was very tired when I wrote that.

As for the Partial Preterist view, of everything being done, and pretty much waiting to happen, I could see a lot of sense there. It's really just a statement that we're all waiting for the final curtain, which we are.

But it was the Preterist's sites I objected to, because, if you don't know all the other end time positions, those sites are just ready to pull you in the wrong direction.

Imagine telling people that Jesus already came before 70 a.d. without mentioning who it was He came to! Well, Jesus showed himself to a lot of people, John being the last known, and that was in the 90's.

I don't recall a rapture to the sky or the heavens of any kind mentioned in the New Testament, except for Revelation, and that was only in the spirit, yet I don't want to doubt Paul's word, or Jesus', or the littering of referances throughout the Bible that a rapture will happen. Would I like it to come before the Trib? Of course, I'd be insane not to.

I was interested in the pre-wrath view for a time because it at least provided for people not to get their hopes up that all the Christians on earth will get out without a scratch, when people are dying daily for Christ, somewhere.

And yet the Preterist site's are a mess of confused statements, explanations, and generalized claims that would easily lead a casual visitor to these pages to believe such a thing could be true.

The one thing I like about an imminent Rapture is the view one takes towards the future. One stays fired up, watching and waiting, trying never to let your guard down.

As to the date, I leave that pretty much to God. He is the only one who knows, but Jesus did say we were to take notice of the signs of the times.

Well, I've lived with the signs for a long time, and while it's pleasant to see things going as supposedly scheduled, it's horrifying to see the world grow ever darker.

It is this I hate, and those deliberately misleading websites, not your questing spirit. For mine quests as well.

Again, forgive me, my brother.

Blessings

Forrest

UniqueWebRev wrote:
The one thing I like about an imminent Rapture is the view one takes towards the future. One stays fired up, watching and waiting, trying never to let your guard down.

Forrest,

I've highlighted this statement because it illustrates a great, albeit subtle concern I have when observing the means in which many people interpret Scripture. Whenever peoples logic or a utilitarian logic is the basis of our interpretation of Biblical statements, our alarm bells should go off.

To quote Dietrich Bonhoeffer:

"Wherever man attacks the concrete Word of God with the weapon of a principle or idea of God there he has become lord over God."

Either God is revealed in Scripture or He isn't. If He is, then we need to be vigilant at "allowing" God to be offensive to our intellect, especially in the areas of justice and mercy. Consider Jürgen Moltmann's comment on the cross of Christ:

"The true faith begins where the atheist thinks it should end. In the mind boggling contradiction of all that we thought to be true about God."

The problem that I have with the secret rapture theory is that when Christ's return is spoken of it is clear that every eye will see. One must deduce that there are two "second comings", in order to maintain this logic. Another possibility is that the "thief in the night" and "observation of signs" points us to two different perspectives of viewing the rapture. One by the lost/deceived/apathetic (as those "in the days of Noah") and the other of the redeemed who await his coming (as "Noah" himself).

Regarding us "meeting him in the clouds", perhaps we ascend, in order to descend with him, as he returns for his Millennial Reign. Considering that it is said that we will rule and reign with him, this would make sense, and still be in keeping with the plain reading of Scripture.

Regarding the statements of being kept from tribulation, perhaps this more a perceived thing, where the saints will, as Paul, consider their sufferings as "momentary and light", and thereby be kept from the suffering element, through rejoicing in the midst of their trials. I only raise these in order to challenge your view.

My fear is that pre-trib orientated Premillenialism is a "point of least resistance" doctrine, that caters for our Western yearning for comfort and ease. Leonard Ravenhill cited a story of how Western missionaries lost all credibility in China after teaching pretrib rapture only to have every statement about future persecution be right, except the fact that they would escape it. Tragically I feel that there will be a great wave of disappointment as persecution intensifies, and spills over in great measure into the Western nations, that will rival the Great Day of Disappointment of 1844.

I insert that last point, simply to challenge the logic that you presented. The Second Adventist Revival, of 1844, saw many "turn to Christ" in anticipation of "Christ's imminent return" on October 22 of that year. Sadly, October 23rd saw many of them fall away, in disillusionment. This is what happened in history, when a false idea was spread with the right motives, and justified by utilitarian results.

My fear is that pre-trib orientated Premillenialism is a "point of least resistance" doctrine, that caters for our Western yearning for comfort and ease. Leonard Ravenhill cited a story of how Western missionaries lost all credibility in China after teaching pretrib rapture only to have every statement about future persecution be right, except the fact that they would escape it. Tragically I feel that there will be a great wave of disappointment as persecution intensifies, and spills over in great measure into the Western nations, that will rival the Great Day of Disappointment of 1844.

I wonder if this isn't a bit of utilitarian logic of your own. I can't help but think your point denies the power of the Holy Spirit to keep those in whom He dwells even in the face of great disappointment.

In Christ,

Ron

I wonder if this isn't a bit of utilitarian logic of your own. I can't help but think your point denies the power of the Holy Spirit to keep those in whom He dwells even in the face of great disappointment.

No one denies the power of the Holy Spirit to keep those whom He dwells even in the face of great disappointment. What we deny is that the Holy Spirit will keep us from trouble and tribulation in this world.

The fact is that the more someone is 'filled with the Spirit' the more likely they will be hated and persecuted. Let's take a look at Stephen, he was filled with the Spirit and all it got him on this earth was a stoning.

I believe CJaKfOrEsT makes a valid point in that (whether or not we intend to do so) us Christians in America believe that no trouble or persecution will come to us because we are Christians. When in truth, American Christianity is not the norm, it is the exception.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
The one thing I like about an imminent Rapture is the view one takes towards the future. One stays fired up, watching and waiting, trying never to let your guard down.

Forrest,

I've highlighted this statement because it illustrates a great, albeit subtle concern I have when observing the means in which many people interpret Scripture. Whenever peoples logic or a utilitarian logic is the basis of our interpretation of Biblical statements, our alarm bells should go off.

To quote Dietrich Bonhoeffer:

"Wherever man attacks the concrete Word of God with the weapon of a principle or idea of God there he has become lord over God."

Either God is revealed in Scripture or He isn't. If He is, then we need to be vigilant at "allowing" God to be offensive to our intellect, especially in the areas of justice and mercy. Consider Jürgen Moltmann's comment on the cross of Christ:

"The true faith begins where the atheist thinks it should end. In the mind boggling contradiction of all that we thought to be true about God."

The problem that I have with the secret rapture theory is that when Christ's return is spoken of it is clear that every eye will see. One must deduce that there are two "second comings", in order to maintain this logic....Regarding us "meeting him in the clouds", perhaps we ascend, in order to descend with him, as he returns for his Millennial Reign. Considering that it is said that we will rule and reign with him, this would make sense, and still be in keeping with the plain reading of Scripture.

Regarding the statements of being kept from tribulation, perhaps this more a perceived thing...My fear is that pre-trib orientated Premillenialism is a "point of least resistance" doctrine, that caters for our Western yearning for comfort and ease....Tragically I feel that there will be a great wave of disappointment as persecution intensifies, and spills over in great measure into the Western nations, that will rival the Great Day of Disappointment of 1844.

Aaron,

I don't believe that the Rapture will be either secret or quiet.

I do know that it cannot be timed.

If the Rapture does occur prior to the Tribulation, I hope it is to turn the Laodicean Church around.

Having read the entire thread you posted last year by Prasch, I was quite taken by the way he sees certain things that I sense, but cannot explain. (And bless you for posting the article, and the recent link.) Fortunately for me, I've already been studying Judaica for years.

I do tend to look on the Rapture as the Hope for the believing church, not just as a life boat to get out of the way of the Great Tribulation, (2nd half of the Trib for those that don't know the basics of escatology), but to wake up some of those that are so half hearted about being Christian.

And think of the effect it would have in the places of persecution, where the church has gone underground, or at least very quiet, if millions of known, converted muslims and atheists, flat out disappear in front of people, after just preaching the coming of Christ! Ooh, that would be terrific!

But I am concerned about the need for appropriate caution. I fully investigated the view of a pre-wrath Rapture, and took warning then. And those I know that were brought up with the Pre-Trib Rapture Theory, I warned myself of the danger of expecting too much.

Prasch said he was convinced that the Rapture would happen between the 6th and 7th seal being broken. I tend to believe it will happen during the fifth seal, much as I would like to get out sooner. Like the first 300+ years of saints after Jesus died, I will continue to daily expect the Rapture until it happens or I die.

I don't plan to go anywhere. Where can you go to escape persecution as a Born Again Christian? And worse, as an evangelist?

In my view, America will protect us the longest, at least from death. I well know I could land in jail for just what is already on my website, and as for possessions, well, they come and go as the breeze, and always have.

I have been worried for a long time about a lot that Prasch brought up in the article you posted. Why does no one expect demons to descend on us, but that we merely deal with a smoothtalking politician?

I've watched UFO's dancing minuets in the evening sky with my friends to the point of boredom - pretty, designed to be noticed, to prepare a mindset for all sorts of lies and explanations, when to my mind, demons and angels are both 'aliens' to our world.

I hear about cloning, and instantly think of Chimera's, those poor mixtures of beasts, probably demon powered, that show up in Classical Literature, and could only be from a time prior to Noah. Flying horses and unicorns and such sound pretty in all the fairy tales, but from what I've read, they were really quite nasty articles of somebody's invention that could not create on his own.

But worse, I think of all those 'stars' falling, and possessing the unsaved, and using them to set up the the Great Trib. The first three and 1/2 years are not going to be a cakewalk for anyone.

[color=993300]Rev. 6: 9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[u] 11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/u]
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[u]13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.[/u]
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?[/color]

The fifth seal contains the cry of the martyred spirits to God, and the putting on of white clothing, denoting righteousness,(the Judgement of the Lamb?) and an implicit warning that a huge harvest of saints is coming. But oddly, the fifth seal contains no other action. Isn't that a nifty mind boggler?

The sixth seal contains four seperate events - a big earthquake that I'd like to miss; the 'star's fall, which in my mind, equals demons; a nuclear exchange or Godly equivalent, and the 144,000 Jewish witnesses that are sealed unto the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, I agree with you to a point. I believe in a rapture because it's in the Bible. I don't believe any Christian is guaranteed anything except salvation, and reward in the Judgement of the Lamb for whatever works were done on earth that were done with right motive, if one can have a right motive, or do any kind of works in that frame of mind except with the Holy Spirit moving you to.

And I consider the doctrine of imminency to be crucial to the right frame of mind of a Christian, as long as you don't try to set a date for the Rapture, and frequently warn against doing so, as I believe you were doing.

Yes, we could go up to come right back down, but that serves no practical purpose, and God is nothing if not practical.

But I'm still at a loss to figure out how to escape the Anti-Christ during the Great Trib with demons running around everywhere, and Lucifer having a signed warrant from God to catch us all if he can. Besides, I'm too old and broken to run.

So, I rest in the Hope of the Rapture, and refuse to worry. The situation is out of my control, except for staying fired up about Jesus, and doing my best to snag a stray soul, water a seed, or plant one for later. And if I perish, well, I just hope it won't hurt too much.

Death doesn't trouble me - I found that out in the accident. To me, death would be a relief right now, except that I have too much to do.

Jail I can survive, so long as some kind, unsaved soul, like my brother, feeds my dogs.

Blessings,

Forrest