MUST READ: We Must Be Holy - J.C. Ryle....it's very worth the read

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We Must Be Holy

by

J. C. Ryle
(1816-1900)
__________________________

First published as a "Helmingham Series" Tract in Helmingham, Suffolk

We must he holy on earth before we die, if we desire to go to heaven after death. If we hope to dwell with God for ever in the life to come, we must endeavour to be like Him in the life that now is. We must not only admire holiness, and wish for holiness: we must be holy.

Holiness cannot justify and save us: holiness cannot cover our iniquities, make satisfaction for transgressions, pay our debts to God. Our best works are no better than filthy rags, when tried by the light of God's law. The righteousness which Jesus Christ brought in must be our only confidence,—the blood of atonement our only hope. All this is perfectly true, and yet we must be holy.

We must be holy, because God in the Bible plainly commands it. "As He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Peter i. 15, 16).

We must be holy, because this is one great end for which Christ came into the world. "He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again" (2 Cor. v. 15).

We must be holy, because this is the only sound evidence that we have a saving faith in Christ. "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James ii. 17, 26).

We must be holy, because this is the only proof that we love the Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. What can be more plain than our Lord's own words? "If ye love Me, keep my commandments." "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me." (John xiv. 15, 21).

We must be holy, because this is the only sound evidence that we are God's children. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" (Rom. viii. 14; I John iii. 10).

Lastly, we must be holy, because without holiness on earth we should never be prepared and meet for heaven. It is written of the heavenly glory, "There shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie" (Rev. xxi. 27). St. Paul says expressly, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. xii. 14).

Ah, reader, the last text I have just quoted is very solemn. It ought to make you think. It was written by the hand of inspired man: it is not my private fancy. Its words are the words of the Bible: not of my own invention. God has said it, and God will stand to it: "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord."

What tremendous words these are! What thoughts come across my mind as I write them down! I look at the world, and see the greater part of it lying in wickedness; I look at professing Christians, and see the vast majority having nothing of Christianity but the name; I turn to the Bible, and I hear the Spirit saying, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord."

Surely it is a text that ought to make you consider your ways, and search your hearts. Surely it should raise within you solemn thoughts, and send you to prayer.

You may try to put me off by saying you feel much, and think much about these things,—far more than many suppose. I answer, This is not the point. The poor lost souls in hell do as much as this. The great question is, not what you think and what you feel, but what you DO. Are you holy?

You may say, It was never meant that all Christians should be holy, and that holiness such as I have described is only for great saints, and people of uncommon gifts. I answer, I cannot see this in Scripture. I read that "every man who hath hope in Christ purifieth himself" (1 John iii. 3). "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord."

You may say, It is impossible to be so holy and to do our duty in this life at the same time: the thing cannot be done. I answer, You are mistaken: it can be done. With God on your side, nothing is impossible. It has been done by many: Moses, and Obadiah, and Daniel, and the servants of Nero's household, are all examples that go to prove it.

You may say, If you were so holy, you would be unlike other people. I answer, I know it well: it is just what I want you to be. Christ's true servants always were unlike the world around them,—a separate nation, a peculiar people; and you must be so too, if you would be saved.

You may say, At this rate very few will be saved. I answer, I know it: Jesus said so eighteen hundred years ago. Few will be saved, because few will take the trouble to seek salvation. Men will not deny themselves the pleasures of sin and their own way for a season; for this they turn their backs on an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away. "Ye will not come to Me," says Jesus, "that ye might have life" (John v. 40).

You may say, These are hard sayings: the way is very narrow. I answer, I know it: Jesus said so eighteen hundred years ago. He always said that men must take up the cross daily, that they must be ready to cut off hand or foot, if they would be His disciples. It is in religion as it is in other things, "There are no gains without pains." That which costs nothing is worth nothing.

Reader, whatever you may think fit to say, you must be holy if you would see the Lord. Where is your Christianity if you are not? Show it to me without holiness, if you can. You must not merely have a Christian name and Christian knowledge, you must have a Christian character also: you must be a saint on earth, if ever you mean to be a saint in heaven. God has said it, and He will not go back,—"Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." "The Pope's calendar," says Jenken, "only makes saints of the dead, but Scripture requires sanctity in the living." "Let not men deceive themselves," says Owen, "sanctification is a qualification indispensably necessary—unto those who will be under the conduct of the Lord Jesus unto salvation: He leads none to heaven but whom He sanctifies on the earth. This living Head will not admit of dead members."

Surely you will not wonder that Scripture says, "Ye must be born again" (John iii. 7). Surely it is clear as noon-day that many of you need a complete change, —new hearts, new natures,—if ever you are to be saved. Old things must pass away, you must become new creatures. Without holiness, no man, be he who he may,—no man shall see the Lord.

Reader, consider well what I have said. Do you feel any desire to be holy? Does your conscience whisper, "I am not holy yet, but I should like to become so"? Listen to the advice I am going to give you. The Lord grant you may take it and act upon it!

Would you be holy? Would you become a new creature? Then begin with Christ. You will do just nothing till you feel your sin and weakness, and flee to Him: He is the beginning of all holiness. He is not wisdom and righteousness only to His people, but sanctification also. Men sometimes try to make themselves holy first of all, and sad work they make of it: they toil, and labour, and turn over many new leaves, and make many changes, and yet, like the woman with the issue of blood before she came to Christ, they feel nothing bettered, but rather worse. They run in vain, and labour in vain: and little wonder, for they are beginning at the wrong end. They are building up a wall of sand: their work runs down as fast as they throw it up. They are baling water out of a leaky vessel; the leak gains on them; not they on the leak. Other foundation of holiness can no man lay than that which Paul laid, even Christ Jesus. Without Christ we can do nothing. It is a strong but true saying of Traill's, "Wisdom out of Christ is damning folly; righteousness out of Christ is guilt and condemnation; sanctification out of Christ is filth and sin; redemption out of Christ is bondage and slavery."

Would you be holy: Would you be partakers of the Divine nature? Then go to Christ. Wait for nothing: wait for nobody: linger not. Think not to make you yourself ready: go, and say to Him, in the words of that beautiful hymn,—

"Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling;
Naked, flee to Thee for dress;
Helpless, look to Thee for grace."

There is not a brick nor a stone laid in the work of our sanctification till we go to Christ. Holiness is His special gift to His believing people; holiness is the work He carries on in their hearts, by the Spirit whom He puts within them. He is appointed a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance as well as remission of sins: to as many as receive Him He gives power to become sons of God. Holiness comes not of blood,—parents cannot give it to their children; nor yet of the will of the flesh,—man cannot produce it in himself; nor yet of the will of man, —ministers cannot give it you by baptism. Holiness comes from Christ. It is the result of vital union with Him: it is the fruit of being a living branch of the true vine. Go then to Christ, and say, "Lord, not only save me from the guilt of sin, but send the Spirit, whom Thou didst promise, and save me from its power. Make me holy. Teach me to do Thy will."

Would you continue holy, when you have once been made so? Then abide in Christ. He says Himself, "Abide in Me, and I in you. He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit" (John xv. 4, 5).

He is the Physician to whom You must daily go, if you would keep well; He is the Manna which you must daily eat, and the Rock of which you must daily drink. His arm is the arm on which you must daily lean, as you come up out of the wilderness of this world. You must not only be rooted, you must also be built up in Him.

Reader, may you and I know these things by experience, and not by hearsay only! May we all feel the importance of holiness, far more than we have ever done yet! May our years he holy years with our souls, and then I know they will be happy ones! But this I say once more, "We must be holy."

It ought to make you think.

You may try to put me off by saying you feel much, and think much about these things,—far more than many suppose. I answer, This is not the point. The poor lost souls in hell do as much as this. The great question is, not what you think and what you feel, but what you DO. Are you holy?

You must not merely have a Christian name and Christian knowledge, you must have a Christian character also:

It is a strong but true saying of Traill's, "Wisdom out of Christ is damning folly; righteousness out of Christ is guilt and condemnation; sanctification out of Christ is filth and sin; redemption out of Christ is bondage and slavery."

Go then to Christ, and say, "Lord, not only save me from the guilt of sin, but send the Spirit, whom Thou didst promise, and save me from its power. Make me holy. Teach me to do Thy will."

Dear James,

Am praying no disservice from even extracting a few small potions from this. This is a tremendous whole, could but pray it goes well beyond just reading. What a important and incredibly searching monument here.

Thx tjservant for sharing this article of bishop Ryle it is very powerful messsage.I wrote on the first page of a book of Tozer's life and sermons that powerfull truth of Triall :

"Wisdom out of Christ is damning folly; righteousness out of Christ is guilt and condemnation; sanctification out of Christ is filth and sin; redemption out of Christ is bondage and slavery."

Christ is our all and out of Him we are totally 'dead' in the spirit and nothing good can come out of a spiritually 'dead' person. All we can do is come to him just as we are with our sins and burdens and accept the t free gift of salvation and then as children of God live holy lives by the enabling of the Holy Spirit for the glory of the Father.

But this I say once more, "We must be holy."

Amen.

How does one abide in Christ? I have searched the scriptures and still do not know how to do this. Could someone explain it please.

excellent article brother. thank you so much for posting it.

How does one abide in Christ?

So if I'm in Christ, I can't be in the world at the same time. So as I as earnestly seek after Jesus, the Holy Spirit will show me where I'm not really abiding in Jesus but abiding in my own self-sufficiency.

That's just an example of one area the Holy Spirit is dealing with me on to the root.

Ask the Lord to show you where you're not abiding in Him and He will begin to show you... I can testify that Jesus loves this type of prayer...

Thank you for your answer. I will indeed take it to the Lord in prayer. :-)

Brother Keith Daniels has some excellent messages on abiding in Christ. "the Word of God", "Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit..." and "The quiet time" all are on this subject. I trust you will find these messages very helpfull and inspiring.

For His glory
Aaron

Being holy is is the basis of a christian's defence and strength.

A christian who is not holy is naked and vulnerable to attack.it is not a mere commandment to be fulfilled, for it is our shield and at thesame time our weapon.

when a man is holy,his supplications are granted speedily by the spiritual realm,his commands are obeyed without delay by the powers of darkness.

Be ye holy!!!! for this is our defence and weapon in the warfare we are in.
The man who knows this and has made himself holy is a warrior in the frontline of the battlefield.

BE YE HOLY!

Quote:

""""Be ye holy!!!! for this is our defence and weapon in the warfare we are in.
The man who knows this and has made himself holy is a warrior in the frontline of the battlefield.""""

How does one do this?

In Christ: Phillip

It is in religion as it is in other things, "There are no gains without pains." That which costs nothing is worth nothing.

phil

in Matt. 5:8 we have a simular principle-- blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. The heart is the seat of all spiritual activity and all operations of the human heart. If the Hply Spirit is Holy and he dwells in us. as in Ex. 30:28-29 if the things sanctified are holy and whatsoever touch them shall be made holy. how much more if he God's Spirit touches us will we be made holy. Jn. 14:17 shall be in you.

Psalms 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

That which costs nothing is worth nothing.

Proverbs 20:21
An inheritance may be gotten hastily at the beginning; but the end thereof shall not be blessed.

Modern "easy believe-ism" disturbs me.

read john 8 31 and 32 jesus said "to abide(stay) in My word, then you are truly disciples of mine: and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".
First and foremost know what the word of God says. Prayer, worship, fasting are all important parts of abiding in Christ. But knowing the word, and doing what the word says, is first. Read the word and let it transform you. be careful to not let it be the other way around.

I believe that in john 8v31-32 Jesus was as was his way drawing a clear distinction between those born of faith (spirit) and those born of the flesh.some received his words others did not,faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God yet some did not believe they could not receive his word because their pride disqaulified them from grace, "By grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves lest any one should boast." they were all dead in transgressions and sins so how will the dead hear! unless they are quickened by the spirit(grace) of God.God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble, you cannot know the word and certainly cannot do it,nor will it avail in any way to do its full work in you lest you first humble yourself before God recognizing your utter dependance upon him to do the work that only he can do, jesus said that he could do nothing of himself. v47 "he who is of God hears Gods word." Gods word is spirit and cannot be received by those who have not been spiritually quickened, yes it can be mentally received but it will not produce faith, since it is impossible to please God without faith the one born of the flesh who has not been spiritully awakened is caught in a dilemna that cannot be resolved until he recognises his condition and humbles himself, "therefore examine yourselves as to wether you are of the faith." we have been chosen by God as a holy nation but we must have grace by which we may serve him acceptably otherwise it is flesh and is an offence to God, he "has given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness", That scripture tells me that His provision to us through His word, son and spirit are all we need to be holy and to walk in fellowship with him.Gods word is full of power and He has sent it forth to produce in us whatever pleases Him, and we know that it is faith that pleases Him.His spirit shall guide us into all truth and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.We have the son, O! I could go on forever speaking of the mighty works that he did and continues to do on our behalf but I fear I have already over egged the pudding, hope this is helpfull to someone.

Great article! I was reading 'A New Birth' by Ryle, but got waylaid. I got through about half of this article and then remembered this passage, from Titus 2:11-15

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

I've been busy with a study in the Gospel according to John, and got to the part where Jesus clears the temple. The word zeal, or zealous seems to give the same idea as boiling, gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, 'on FIRE for JESUS!'

Sincerely,
Eric.

We Must Be Holy

Brenda, did you quote this from another source?

Amazed asked how we abide in Christ. Definitive answer found in John 15:10 and 1John2:3

Jhn 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 1Jo 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jo 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 1Jo 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

TJ,
Thank you for posting this very excellent article, and thank you also for your excellent and encouraging signature.

I love this forum.

Krautfrau: "I think that Ryles book is one of the most dangerous that has been written as it leads men away from the light though having gained for itself great praise and Ryle is thought of as a holy man yet he was saying he could not stop sinning in this life and that the power of God was not stronger than sin."

Krautfrau, Can you cite the source for your statement? I could find no evidence of it.

Thank you,
JonMarie

What and Who is holiness?

What? The life of Christ.

Who? Jesus Christ Himself.

How are we holy? Because He is Holy we are Holy.

Christ in us is the only holiness we have. Our Spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, our old father Satan is banished from those that are given to Christ by the Father. Satan no longer has any hold over us, unless we give Satan a mind to. That is why we are to renew our minds, because by the Spirit of Christ we have the mind of Christ and that is why we are to study to renew our minds and become the righteous of God in Christ Jesus, and only in Christ Jesus are we holy. What is our glory? Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; (((((((((which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:)))))))) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Christ is our only hope of Glory. He is our only holiness, because He lives in me and my Spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, this is the only holiness I have. "Be ye holy for I am Holy. This is Christ in us that makes us Holy.

I now live to God, by the Christ that lives in me. Without the Spirit of Christ I am none of His.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

By the Spirit of Christ in me, He is the One that has control over my life, it is no longer Satan who has control. Paul says it is no longer Paul who sins, that is the real Paul to God, for that is Christ in Paul that the Father now sees. Paul says it is his flesh that sins, funny the flesh is the only thing that has to die still.
Our spirit can never die, our soul mind is being renewed to the Mind of Christ and that is where the Holy Spirit dwells, so the soul will never die, for the Holy Spirit is in us forever as is the Spirit of Christ. Then even the Father dwells with us also for that is where Christ and His Father make their abode with us. So the only thing left to die is the flesh, praise God we can get this body of flesh that still sins gone and dead. Which by faith we already have it in the Spirit of Christ we died with.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The only life which I now live is by the Spirit of Christ, the Faith of Christ, the Love of Christ and His completed work of the Cross. "It is finished"

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness (Holiness) come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Alive unto God by the Christ in me, my all and in all that I am or ever will be: Phillip

THIS IS THE ONLY AND TRUE FREEDOM WE HAVE.

If one wants to be holy then one should read of the men who said they had gained freedom from the presence of sin and there are men who could do that without contradiction.

Brenda - Wondering who you would recommend?

Krautfrau: "Ryle was a Calvinist and therefore...."

So do I understand correctly that because you say Ryle was a Calvinist, his teaching automatically should be discounted as being Holy Spirit inspired? And that it was not any specific thing that Ryle taught? And all Calvinists are not led of the Holy Spirit? Forgive me if I sound accusatory, I am not, but want to make sure that I understand you correctly. Please do not assume that I am a Calvinist.

Thank you,
JonMarie

Krautfrau: "..many devout Calvinists but they follow Augustine and there lies the problem."

??? All Calvinists follow Augustine? Does that include the Calvinists that don't know of Augustine?

The ones that just follow the bible? Or does such a one not exist?

What about this Augustine fellow anyway, what did he do that was so bad? What is the problem he seems to have caused to so many, low these many centuries later?

Thank you in advance, if you choose to respond.

PS Does devout Calvinist mean devoted to Calvin? or to God?

Brenda,
Thank you for your response. If what I recently read was true, my five minutes of reading about Augustine and Pelagius indicates that according to the bible, Augustine was right and Pelagius was not only wrong, he was a heretic. Is the following your understanding?

"The controversy began when the British monk, Pelagius, opposed at Rome Augustine's famous prayer: "Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." Pelagius recoiled in horror at the idea that a divine gift (grace) is necessary to perform what God commands. For Pelagius and his followers responsibility always implies ability. If man has the moral responsibility to obey the law of God, he must also have the moral ability to do it." R.C. Sproul

Krautfrau: "What Pelagius did say was that if God gives commands then man must be able to obey them. He did not leave Christ out of the equation at all."

Can you explain how Christ does fit into this equation, according to Pelagius?

Krautfrau: "No it was Augustine who was the heretic and a pretty nasty one at that,"

I found no evidence indicating that Augustine was a heretic.
Could you site your reference?
Thank you,
JonMarie

A truthful article. What it all boils down to is the we must be holy- in heart and in life. But only Christ can accomplish this in our lives. It is by His grace alone, and thank God for it.

Krautfrau,
I do not know how much you have studied either Pelagius or Augustine, but from all I have read recently, it seems that the general consensus regarding the main issue, is that Augustine believed that man was born with a sin nature as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve, and that a work of God "Divine Grace" would be required to enable one to become holy.
Pelagius on the other hand denied "original sin" and believed that human effort was adequate in and of itself to make one holy or sinless, that man has a moral capacity to choose, and to live a holy life apart from "Divine Grace".

Is this your understanding of the generally accepted ideas of these two individuals or in your view is the main point something else?

Answers.com:
"Does grace license freedom TO sin, or does grace free you FROM sin?"

Obviously this question must be answered FIRST, before the proper understanding of the preceding argument could be could be viewed.

Thank you,
JonMarie

Krautfrau: "Augustine interpreted Romans 7 to say that man cannot stop sinning which contradicts Jesus and John."

Paul IS saying that man cannot stop sinning in Romans 7 APART from Jesus Christ (which concurs with Jesus and John), and ends chap 7 this way...24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body (AC) of death? (AD) 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! (AE) [j] So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin. (HCSB)

Then Paul goes on in chapter 8 of Romans to declare the freedom from the power of sin THROUGH Christ alone(a view that Pelagius disagrees with) 1 Therefore, no condemnation (A) now exists for those in (B) Christ Jesus, (C) [a] 2 because the Spirit's law of life (D) in Christ Jesus has set you [b] free from the law of sin and of death. (E) 3 What the law could not do (F) since it was limited [c] by the flesh, (G) God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours (H) under sin's domain, [d] and as a sin offering, (I) 4 in order that the law's requirement would be accomplished (J) in us who do not walk according to the flesh (K) but according to the Spirit. 5 For those whose lives are [e] according to the flesh think about the things of the flesh, (L) but those whose lives are [f] according to the Spirit, about the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind-set of the flesh (M) is death, (N) but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind-set of the flesh is hostile (O) to God because it does not submit itself to God's law, for it is unable to do so. 8 Those whose lives are [g] in the flesh (P) are unable to please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, since [h] the Spirit of God lives in you. (HCSB)

Please view the following youtube clip
Rom. 7 vs 8 by Leonard Ravenhill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZhPb7VQ6VI

This video gives a good understanding of Paul's viewpoint.

JB1968,

Then I understand you to say that you believe Augustine was correct.

I do not believe that Augustine was fully correct and I do believe that Pelagius was more of an heretic. We cannot stop sinning by our own power, but only by God's grace and help. But God has also given us the ability to say no to sin and yes to Him. But it is by His grace this can be accomplished. Ausgustine was wrong when he taught that sin is in our body. It is not a part of our body, but our nature is depraved and corrupted by the Fall and sins committed. But thank God we can be free from sin. Jesus said "Go and sin no more." John said, "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world."
Regardless of who teaches truth, truth is still truth. We must be holy. Heb. 12:14 says "without holiness, no man shall see the Lord" God said, "Be ye holy, for I am holy."

JB1968,

I am in agreement with your comments.

Krautfrau: "Augustine believed in imputed righteousness which means that we can do whatever we want and we will still be saved as we will sin till we die."

I do not see that as evidenced by the outward 180 degree change in Augustine's behavior. Furthermore why do you assume that when Augustine said we will sin till we die, that he was talking about sins of commission, rather than sins of omission? Do you believe that as one grows in holiness so likewise does ones sin consciousness?

Krautfrau: "Pelagius believed that man is born innocent, there is a very weak scriptural case for original sin,..."

??? Consider the following;

Romans 5:18-20
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:44-46
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Romans 5:11-13
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Krautfrau: "...but from what I understand, he believed that every man will fall when they reach the age of accountability and then need saving from sin."

There is no scriptural evidence to substantiate that point.

Krautfrau:" Furthermore, it is the only possible explanation for Augstine having a doctrinal debate with another theologian....I repeat why would Augustine do this with a man who believed that man on his own can be right with God through his own efforts. What do you call a man who says this? Not a Christian."

Perhaps that offers insight as to why most of Pelagius' work was destroyed.

Krautfrau: "I do not believe the consensus on this issue."

We are all entitled to our own opinions and to believe as we wish to.

Krautfrau: "I do not believe what Augustine wanted the world to believe hence his destruction of Pelagiuses work so that we could decide for ourselves."

God has ensured that His Word will be preserved for us. The only important issue regarding any doctrinal teachings of Pelagius or Augustine is whether they line up with the truth of scripture. Since the volume of manuscripts that exist to substantiate the teachings of Pelagius are nominal it does not seem worthwhile to focus on Pelagius or his teachings, in that God gave us the Bible. Or Augustine for that matter. Why should we be concerning ourselves with what Pelagius or Augustine said, rather than with what Jesus, Paul, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, James, and others have declared, that has been preserved over the centuries in the Bible and substantiated by thousands of manuscripts? In other words, why should we choose to speculate when the facts are before us?

Thank you Brenda for your responses.
JonMarie

Original sin is taught in the Bible. Consider also when David said, "In sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5.
Job 14:1 "Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble."
Because of original sin, this does not give us an excuse to sin. This Bible says that the "soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20
The Bible does teach imputed righteousness and also imparted righteousness. We are made righteous because of what Christ has done for us and then His righteousness is imparted to us experientually. Romans 4:11 and following. Also James 2:23. 2 Peter 1:4.

JB1968: "Original sin is taught in the Bible. Consider also when David said, "In sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5."

What did David mean by "In sin did my mother conceive me."
Did he have a different mother from his brothers?

JB1968: "Because of original sin, this does not give us an excuse to sin. This Bible says that the "soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20"

Romans 6:22-23
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

An excuse to sin. If one is looking for that, it reveals that the desire for sin is greater than one's love for God, and that the heart desires sin more than it desires relationship with God. To love God, is to hate sin.

JB1968: "The Bible does teach imputed righteousness and also imparted righteousness."

?

im·pute
–verb (used with object),-put·ed, -put·ing.
1.
to attribute or ascribe: The children imputed magical powers to the old woman.
2.
to attribute or ascribe (something discreditable), as to a person.
3.
Law. to ascribe to or charge (a person) with an act or quality because of the conduct of another over whom one has control or for whose acts or conduct one is responsible.
4.
Theology. to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.
5.
Obsolete. to charge (a person) with fault.

vi·car·i·ous
   /vaɪˈkɛəriəs, vɪ-/ Show Spelled[vahy-kair-ee-uhs, vi-] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
performed, exercised, received, or suffered in place of another: vicarious punishment.
2.
taking the place of another person or thing; acting or serving as a substitute.
3.
felt or enjoyed through imagined participation in the experience of others: a vicarious thrill.

JB1968: " We are made righteous because of what Christ has done for us and then His righteousness is imparted to us experientually. Romans 4:11 and following. Also James 2:23. 2 Peter 1:4."

Rom 4: 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22And THEREFORE it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Psalms 51:5

David's sin, Of course, the idea here is not to cast reflections on the character of his mother, or to refer to her feelings in regard to his conception and birth, but the design is to express his deep sense of his own depravity; a depravity so deep as to demonstrate that it must have had its origin in the very beginning of his existence. The word rendered "I was shapen" - חוללתי cholaletiy - is from a word - חול chul - which means properly, "to turn around, to twist, to whirl;" and then it comes to mean "to twist oneself with pain, to writhe;" and then it is used especially with reference to the pains of childbirth. Isa 13:8; 23:4; 26:18; 66:7-8; Mic 4:10. That is the meaning here. The idea is simply that he was "born" in iniquity; or that he was a sinner when he was born; or that his sin could be traced back to his very birth - as one might say that he was born with a love of music, or with a love of nature, or with a sanguine, a phlegmatic, or a melancholy temperament.

There is not in the Hebrew word any idea corresponding to the word ""shapen,"" as if he had been "formed" or "moulded" in that manner by divine power; but the entire meaning of the word is exhausted by saying that his sin could be traced back to his "very birth;" that it was so deep and aggravated, that it could be accounted for - or that he could express his sense of it - in no other way, than by saying that he was "born a sinner." How that occurred, or how it was connected with the first apostasy in Adam, or how the fact that he was thus born could be vindicated, is not intimated, nor is it alluded to. There is no statement that the sin of another was "imputed" to him; or that he was "responsible" for the sin of Adam; or that he was guilty "on account of" Adam's sin, for on these points the psalmist makes no assertion. It is worthy of remark, further, that the psalmist did not endeavor to "excuse" his guilt on the ground that he was ""born"" in iniquity; nor did he allude to that fact with any purpose of "exculpating" himself. The fact that he was thus born only deepened his sense of his own guilt, or showed the enormity of the offence which was the regular result or outbreak of that carly depravity. The points, therefore, which are established by this expression of the psalmist, so far as the language is designed to illustrate how human nature is conceived, are

(1) that people are born with a propensity to sin; and

(2) that this fact does not excuse us in sin, but rather tends to aggravate and deepen our guilt.

The language goes no further than this in regard to the question of original sin or native depravity. The Septuagint agrees with this interpretation - ιδου γαρ εν ανομιαις συνεληφθην idou gar en anomias sunelefthen. So the Vulgate: in iniquitatibus conceptus sum.

And in sin did my mother conceive me - Margin, as in Hebrew, "warm me." This language simply traces his sin back to the time when he began to exist. The previous expression traced it to "his birth;" this expression goes back to the very beginning of "life;" when there were the first indications of life. The idea is, "as soon as I began to exist I was a sinner; or, I had then a propensity to sin - a propensity, the sad proof and result of which is that enormous act of guilt which I have committed."

Christinyou,

Thank you for your response, it was clear and understandable, and I can accept it as true.

Krautfrau: "This verse which is the only one which can be used for proponents of original sin is not clear,..."

I would not associate this verse with original sin. The verses that did speak of original sin were mentioned in a previous post.

"There is no denying that all sin, we all fall, and that day we die spiritually and need a Saviour."

That day happened before we were born, see the previous verses. The whole of nature demonstrates to us that law of reproduction, that every living thing is made up of cells derived from previously existing cells, which were originally created by our Creator. The bible is very emphatic this point, especially concerning people and generations. Consider verse

Heb 7: 9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Krautfrau: "Scriptures teaches that each man is accountable for his own sin, not that of another."

Exodus 20: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 9: 1 As He was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples questioned Him: " Rabbi, (A) who sinned, this man (B) or his parents, (C) that he was born blind?" 3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," Jesus answered. "[This came about] so that God's works (D) might be displayed in him. (HCSB)

Krautfrau: The sin of Adam is passed down because through him it entered the world"

True.

Krautfrau:"(Eve was deceived and did not sin deliberately but Adam did.)" ??? Nonsense. Gen 3:2And THE WOMAN SAID unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, GOD HATH SAID YE SHALL NOT eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Krautfrau:"If the holiness of Christ is imparted to us then we will be holy as He is holy. This means that we will walk without sin."

1 John 2:3-5 (King James Version)
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

sin separates us from Him.

Krautfrau:"Yes it is imputed to us but must be imparted too"

to be imputed IS to be imparted, intrinsically, actually, in reality.

Krautfrau:" but most walk as though it has not been imparted. Can you explain why?" because to "most" it has not been. 1 John 2:4

Thanks for your comments Brenda.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; For His Seed remaineth in Him: and He cannot sin, Because He is born of God.

This is the spirit of a man which is Christ. This is the remaining Seed that that is born of God. This is how we separate the sins of a man that Christ died for and must be confessed, and the eternal Spirit of Christ that makes us sons of God. The earthly, which still must die and the heavenly which has already died with Christ. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Earthly man sins; 1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. ((((((And if any man sin,))))) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: "If any man sin" We can still sin in the flesh.

We cannot sin in the Spirit for that is the "Spirit of Christ". 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; For His Seed (Christ) remaineth in him: and He (Christ) cannot sin, Because He (Christ) is born of God.

We dear brothers and sisters are born of God even as Christ is the first born, because His Seed remaineth in us.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

This is how we are saved eternally and that we may still sin, but you must separate the body, (flesh) soul, still fleshly and learning the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit Parakleet, (fleshly) and spirit which is now eternal by the Spirit of Christ that "remaineth in him".

In Christ: Phillip

"Therefore sin is not imputed to the infant whom you will consign to the fires of hell even before he sins himself. Any other interpretation is inconsistent."

Are infants consigned to hell? I do not think so. Jesus said that they are ever before before the Father (Matt. 18:10). There is an age of innocence that God only knows. Children become guilty because they cannot help committing sins.
If people are born without a depraved nature, why do children sin? We become accountable because we have sinned. If a baby's soul is pure at birth, how come religious "utopia" experiences have always failed?
People are sinners because they are sinful. Jeremiah 17:9 talks about the depraved heart.
But that is why Jesus came. He brings deliverance and sets us free. Our freedom is because we are connected to the Vine. It is all of Him. Praise God!

If you are genuinely saved, then you no longer desire to do wrong all the time.
That is the beginning point on the highway of holiness.

"He gets a new heart, a new spirit, new desires, new hopes, new longings....."
"...it is His to lead me there....He knoweth how I should best reach the mark..." "...one thing I know, I cannot say Him nay..." L. Ravenhill

Fellowship with God

1 John 1:
5 Now this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light, and there is absolutely no darkness in Him. (HCSB)

Prov 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

1 John 1: 6 If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," and walk in darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth. (HCSB)

Psalm 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.(HCSB)

Col 1: 10That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

1 John 1:8 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (HCSB)

Philippians 3:13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

1 John 1:10 If we say, "We have not sinned," we make Him a liar, and His word (Q) is not in us. (HCSB)

Col 1: 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard,....

Is the Spirit of Christ born again in the believer?

Did Christ give us the Holy Spirit to live in us forever?

In Christ: Phillip

If we don't have the Spirit of Christ, who's are we?

Whose are we?

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

If we are not His; We are; John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

"In Christ", Paul says it in his epistles over 200 times, it must be that important.

1 Corinthians 1:24-31 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. (((((But of him are ye in Christ Jesus,))))) who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

There is no other name under or in Heaven that can make us righteous, sanctified, redeemed, and wise.

The Holy Spirit Comforter also in us to teach us the things of the Christ that is birthed by the Father in us.

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:23-27 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, (((((he shall teach you all things,)))))) and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

We cannot know the Christ that is in us unless the Holy Spirit teach us of His Word and Who Christ is and what Greatness His Cross and resurrection is to the believer.

No salvation unless Christ is in you, "The hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:21-29 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ, by His might works in me: Phillip

Krautfrau:
"As I have already dealt with 1John I will not agan show that the verses you quote are taking out of context and contradict many other verses which say that he who sins is not in Christ."

Sorry, I do not understand your comment. Verses do not contradict each other, only our lack of understanding does.
Nonetheless, I do not understand what you are saying, or the point you are trying to make?

"Philippians 3:13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."

Krautfrau: "Here is another classic portion taken out of context where people say that Paul has not attained perfection but he is not speaking about THAT perfection but another one if you read the preceeding verses."

Your comment leads me to suspect you may have misunderstood my intent in referencing that verse.

Phil 3:3 For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God, boast in Christ Jesus, and do not put confidence in the flesh— 4 although I once had confidence in the flesh too. (HCSB)

Krautfrau:"It is his course of which he speaks, and the martyrs crown. He shows in verse 15 that he is speaking to others who have been perfected."

Phil 3:15 Therefore, all who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, GOD WILL reveal this to you also. (HCSB)

Paul is saying that those who serve by the Spirit are led and perfected BY THE SPIRIT.

Heb 12: 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Phil 1: 6Being confident of this very thing, that HE which hath begun a good work IN YOU WILL PERFORM IT until the day of Jesus Christ:

Christinyou: "There is no other name under or in Heaven that can make us righteous, sanctified, redeemed, and wise.

The Holy Spirit Comforter also in us to teach us the things of the Christ that is birthed by the Father in us."

AMEN!

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

We are a new creation race of people, Christ ones.
This must be our mind set, in Christ. The knowledge of Christ in you "the hope of glory" must come by revelation of the Holy Spirit. Then our wisdom becomes what God intended wisdom to be, "made in Christ Jesus".

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
2 Corinthians 5:17
      17. Therefore--connected with the words in 2Co 5:16, "We know Christ no more after the flesh." As Christ has entered on His new heavenly life by His resurrection and ascension, so also we who are "in Christ" (that is, united to Him by faith and the Spirit of Christ in us, as the branch is In the vine) also are new creatures (Ro 6:9-11). "New" in the Greek implies a new nature quite different from anything previously existing, not merely recent, which is expressed by a different Greek word (Ga 6:15).
      creature--literally, "creation," and so the creature resulting from the creation (compare Joh 3:3,5). As we are "in Christ," so "God was in Christ" (2Co 5:19): hence He is Mediator between God and us.
      old things--selfish, carnal views (compare 2Co 5:16) of ourselves, of other men, and of Christ.
      passed away--spontaneously, like the snow of early spring [BENGEL] before the advancing sun.
      behold--implying an allusion to Isa 43:19; 65:17.

This is the Great Mystery Paul reveals to usward.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Phillip

Christinyou: "The knowledge of Christ in you "the hope of glory" must come by revelation of the Holy Spirit. Then our wisdom becomes what God intended wisdom to be, "made in Christ Jesus".

Amen.

Krautfrau:
"It is difficult to discuss verses with someone who does not use the AV."

The KJV IS primarily the version I use, and unless otherwise noted, it is the version I use. The Holman Christian Standard Bible is good and also Young's Literal translation and on rare occasion the Amplified version. I am not to keen on other modern translations and rarely if ever use them.

Krautfrau: "Mature does not describe the concept of perfection according to my version which is the main issue I take with modern versions. What do you understand by mature?"

complete; wholehearted; and the like
Brenda, what is your understanding of perfect?

Krautfrau:"I do not deny that sanctification is an ongoing work but only in the sense that it is a witholding of it so that we do not fall as in Jude 24, not as something to get us there. The growth involved is a growth in knowledge and wisdom not a growth by way of turning something into something else."

I do not understand what you are saying when you stated "...it is a witholding of it so that we do not fall..."
A witholding of what?

Thank you,
JonMarie

Phillip wrote:

This is how we are saved eternally and that we may still sin, but you must separate the body, (flesh) soul, still fleshly and learning the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit Parakleet, (fleshly) and spirit which is now eternal by the Spirit of Christ that "remaineth in him".

Hi brother, i sincerely disagree with your theology. The flesh in the new testament is used it two senses. the first meaning of the flesh as a physical body(flesh) is not necessary a bad thing. Jesus came here in the flesh(body) and that flesh was holy and without any stain of sin. We all agree on that as sound christians.

The second meaning of the flesh we find it in the letters of Paul. Here flesh in the ethical sense is bad, if we walk in the flesh as christians we know that we are carnal and not spiritual. But the body of the redeemed christian in the NT theology is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that means that for those who have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them they are being sanctified daily and set apart as holy vessels of honor in the House of God.

Christ died on the cross to redeem the whole of our being, spirit, soul and body and he has shed his blood on the cross to cleanse us of sins of the spirit as well as sins of the flesh(body) and he sanctifies his chosen people, in spirit, soul and body. Thats the holistic view of full salvation, the transformation of our whole being to the likeness of Jesus Christ.Paul agonized and prayed for those he had lead to the Lord that Christ may be formed in them. We are called to be partakers of the divine nature.

The glorification of our mortal body we know will be in heaven (its a future experience), when we will have a spiritual body like that of Christ, but that does not mean our body will be subject to sin, he is subject to death because of the consequences of adams sin entering the world.

Maybe someone with some knowledge in greek can shed more light into the meaning of the word flesh as used in the NT.

Blessings,

Redi

***edited***

A witholding of what?

Krautfrau: "A retention of the state of sinlessness."

Brenda, I am not sure what you are saying here.
To withhold, is to not give.

to retain, is to not take away.

Are you saying that God witholds the ability for us to retain holiness?

Or are you saying that God witholds sin in order that we might retain holiness?

Elected, just what do you think my theology is?

I see it the same as yours.

In Christ: Phillip

Krautfrau: "I meant that in the state of holiness which God gives, He enables us to remain through His holding of us to prevent us from falling unless it is our deliberate move away from Him. It is through His power alone that it is possible."

Amen

Heb 12: 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29For our God is a consuming fire.

Hi Philip,

Each one of us have there personal convictions about non-essentials. i very much agree with you christocentric focus.

i believe that the normal christian should have victory oveer sin and over indwelling sin too. There are 3 wellknown viwes about sanctification. The first one is:

- Reformed calvinictic view that holds to progressive sanctification only and to gradual mortification of sin.There is no crises of sanctification after convertion, only a gradual growth of sanctification believed to be biblical

- The weslyan view sanctification as eradication of sin. There is a definite crises of sanctification after regeneration necessary for cleansing from inbred sin. the weslyans call this experience, as the second work of grace or entire sanctification.

- The keswickian teaching view sanctification as counteracting sin. Progressive sanctification is proceeded by a crises. After conversion you need a definite work of sanctifying grace or infilling with the Spirit.

The best view on sanctification i think (according to me)has been expounded by A.B.Simpsom and A.W.Tozer. They put above the experiences of sanctification, the person of Jesus Christ as the sanctifier. Their theology was very christocentric.The emphases was in Christ not on the blessing or experience of sanctification. Christ is the spring and the source of our sanctification. He's indwelling in us sets us free from indwelling sin.

Brother may be i have not understood your point of view on sanctification but i believe that Christ receive as Lord and Savior is able to make us pure by being a Source of the sanctifying grace in us. I believe to the salvation of the soul in this life. A normal and mature christian in the NT was not only set apart (objective sanctification) as a vessel of honor but was in the process of being transformed from one degree of glory to another degree of glory by the Spirit. This process of transformation include, the whole being and makes the christian spiritual.

The spiritual man has no carnal attitude in him, his motives are pure, he knows by experience the fruits of holiness. He has victory over besetting sin because he has found the secret in him (Christ) not ourside him. The branch bears fruit only as long as is vitaly connected to the Vine.

Philip im sure that our emphases is Christ in us the hope of glory, may be our distinction is about indwelling sin and the power of Christ in the transforming and purifying of the soul (i believe by the grace of God a christian can be free from a soulish attitude).

Shalom,

Redi

Thank you Redi,

I believe in the triune God and the tricodomy of man. Body, soul(mind) and spirit. This being what I believe scripture teaches, Then we don't need any sanctification or teaching in our spirit for that is now the Spirit of Christ, new birth.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So where do we need understanding (sanctification), we can only learn through our mind, which is the soul of man, (mind, will, and emotions). This is where the Holy Spirit does His work, given Him by the Son of Gods prayer and what Christ brings by the Holy Spirit to remembrance of what Christ had said and says to the believer.

This is where I believe that this comes into play, By Christ in the Father and Christ in us, making us in Christ and the Father also, New Birth, in Spirit;

John 14:10-16 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

This another Comforter is our Teacher (Parakleet), who teaches us in our Mind (soul), He is the One that brings what Christ says and is to our new mind, which is the Mind of Christ we have in our Spirit, which our minds must learn, line upon line and precept upon precept unto damnation or through the sanctifying Grace unto salvation in making every man perfect that is in Christ.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

We teach by revelation of the Holy Spirit, what Christ wants His brothers and sisters to know for their lives in Him, Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Holy Spirit is the Teacher of the Christ that is in us, this is where we learn, in our soul-minds.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is He whom the Father will send to comfort us in our soul-mind, ever learning the rest God promises we will enter, by His Son who is rebirthed in us.

Christ will not leave us comfortless either, for by this comfort we know He is in the Father and He and the Father are in us. "We will make our abode with you".

John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

These are the hard saying Peter says Paul speaks and preaches. "Christ in us and us in Christ." New creatures.

Even unto the thing we don't understand, the Holy Spirit will reveal even these to us.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Praise God Jesus has sent the Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher to us;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Holy Spirit is the One that guides us into sanctification which is of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John clearly shows the Three spheres of The Trinity and how we being in the image of God, Three in One, how we are three in one also, Spirit, Soul-Mind and body, especially in John 14,15,16,and 17.

Paul makes it clear that we are being delivered from even physical death and spiritual death also, to be sanctified in the work of God.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Delivered in Spirit completely, being delivered in our soul-mind, and even will be yet delivered in bodies, unto a glorious body like His.

Sorry for the length but this is a very deep subject.

In Christ: Phillip

I would like to make this very simple.

We become partakers of His Divine Nature through His precious promises. 2 Peter 1.

One thing I have learned most precious. As we are being conformed to His Image, we actually are being conformed to His Death. Paul tells us in Philippians 3, that I may KNOW HIM and the fellowship of His Suffering, and the power of HIS Resurrection, being made conformable to His death ....

We are also told in Philippians 2, just before this verse, having this mine in us that was also in Christ Jesus, who became obedient unto death, even death of a cross.

I do believe we so often overlook the journey we are to walk with Christ that leads to maturity also known in scripture as being perfect. Perfect does not mean Holy, but Mature, and through Maturity we being conformed to His Image is the very Holiness God is looking for. As we go through trials and tribulations, all we have are HIS PROMISES that we hold dearly by faith. This very faith that saves us is the very faith that sanctifies us.

ALL to His Glory.

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

Quote: " This very faith that saves us is the very faith that sanctifies us."

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the (((faith of Jesus Christ,))) even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be (((justified by the faith of Christ,))) and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by (((the faith of the Son of God,))) who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

His Faith, His death, His resurrection life, working in me: Phillip

Quote: His Faith, His death, His resurrection life, working in me: Phillip.

Thank you Phillip for the scripture you posted here.

I felt compelled to address this issue. I find so often a self-righteous approach and attitude when the subject of Holiness is discussed among so many who have by-passed the power of the Cross. Yet, I have found in my own life, it is only through the Cross on the resurrection side of Calvary I can taste His life in me, at work in me.

Our Identification with Christ in death can only bring one to a resurrection experience completely in Christ as Christ works and lives in me/us.

It's that continuing death blow to our old Adam, the New Man is who is raising up out of the ashes with Christ, and the New Creature created in Christ Growing in the Grace and Knowledge of Him.

2 Corinthians 4:10
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin