An illustration regarding Total Depravity

This week, I was speaking to a girl in my small-group about the issue of Total Depravity. We were trying to reconcile what the Bible said about Man's original design (e.g, Ps 139) vs the sinful nature.

I came up with the following analogy:

A major computer factory has designed a new model system. The hardware specifications are as follows:
2.5 Ghz Processor
256mb Ram
120Gb Hard Drive
2.0Mb/sec Wi-Fi receiver
10x DVD-Burner

So far, so good.

However, technicians discover that via the internet, the system received a virus attacking the Operating System, specifically targeting the drivers for the hardware. As a result, the computer now operates as follows:
90Mhz Processor
16Mb Ram
500mb Hard Drive
Dial-up speed wi-fi
4x CD-Rom

Obviously, the infected computers are not going to meet the requirements of their respective users and hence will not run the desired program applications.

Now, is it correct for me to describe the computers on the basis of the default hardware and what it can do as such? Yes, as it is a factual statement.

However, am I as just in rejecting the system on the grounds that when activated, it will no longer function in the way that it is supposed to, making it fully unusable? Of course.

intrcssr83~
I would only change it to say that the virus completely rendered the computer useless and "dead" to what it was meant for. Thus it does not need a technician to fix it, or a virus removal program, but a whole new computer, brand new and with the old "corrupted" things done away with. Even better, there would be a 24/7 omniscient "firewall" protecting and removing any further threats. :-P

Unfortunately, I have just opened a can of worms I am sure, so this may be the only post I put on this thread.

roaringlamb wrote:

Unfortunately, I have just opened a can of worms I am sure, so this may be the only post I put on this thread.

I don't think so, though, to be frank, relating grace to a firewall makes my head hurt. I'm just not computer ready all the time.

Blessings,

Forrest

Let me clarify: The illustration was intended to be in simple everday language a tangible explanation of a concept that a younger believer was having difficulty in comprehending; it was not to be an end to itself to build a whole paradigm around.

Intrcssr83, please review what you have up to what Fromke says..... and is it not a sword that needs to be put to the root of the tree?

Of course.

Any theological explanation of the gospel that tries to assert that man on his own has any form of merit and as such should be exhorted for such is not just unbiblical, but blasphemous in the sense that it carves an idol from the worst source possible: the self.

Sadly, so much of the world has become so entranced with humanism that it is slowly started to creep into the church to the extent that there seems to be very little difference between what you would otherwise find in a self-help section of a major bookstore.

And yet is this not one of the things that gives the cross it's offence? While the world tries to assert positivity, self-esteem, saavy lifestyles and any other form of man-centredness, God's word in essense stands by contrast by saying that apart from divine intervention, man is essentially a dead creature (Ephesians 2:1)

To say that we are under the undeserved favour of God and cannot be made right by our works is to at once suggest at full volume that your own natural skills, talents and abilities that you may have worked so hard to train and refine mean absolutely nothing when it comes to serving God as we simply cannot meet his standard by ourselves. Instead, through grace, he must always give a helping hand because left to our own without divine intervention, man is nothing more than a monster of iniquity enslaved to his own depravity, debauchery, deceitfulness and open hostility towards anything to do with the true and living God.

For God to be gracious, man must be fully dependant and totally ineffectual by himself. Everything that must be done for Him is by the dispensation of grace, no one can truly say with regards to ministry, worship, fellowship and devotion that "it was me who did it!" Sadly, the truth of the matter is that there are a lot of "Christians" out there who while they will say and exhort with knowledge and understanding that God's grace is sufficient, they are still burdened with the fruits of Works such as stress, exhaustion, burnout and performance anxiety. At the core of performance anxiety is the belief that one's own natural skills, talents and abilities are not going to get a person through what they have to hence they start to worry and push themselves even more.

Yet the truth is that the root cause of such thinking is really pride in the form of a desire for self-exaltation which is a complete insult to the grace that is freely available from God via Jesus Christ.

I don't see how what Intercessor has said is askew of the Gospel. Depravity is Biblical, and he has provided an illustration of it using computer hard drives.

I don't see the argument

Adam's transgression introduced a condition into himself he could not extricate himself from its penalty and was in need of something/someone outside himself to accomplish reconcilation.

For the next few verses it constantly refers to the impact of Adam's sin on others as well as on Adam.
“...For if through the offence of [u]one[/u] many be dead...” (Rom 5:15 KJVS)

“...for the judgment was by [u]one[/u] to condemnation...” (Rom 5:16 KJVS)

“...For if by [u]one[/u] man’s offence death reigned by one...” (Rom 5:17 KJVS)

“...So then as through [u]one[/u] trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation...” (Rom 5:18 ASV)

“...For as through the [u]one[/u] man’s disobedience the many were made sinners...” (Rom 5:19 ASV) Theologies which ignore these verses are bound to go astray.

God would not command us to do what we are notable to do.
[b]Act 3:19[/b] [color=990000]Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out[/color]

philologos wrote:

Adam's transgression introduced a condition into himself he could not extricate himself from its penalty and was in need of something/someone outside himself to accomplish reconcilation.

The scripture says that Adam's transgression introduced a condition, not only into himself, but into the world. (Rom 5:12)

Furthermore, it is irresonsible to quote 1/2 a verse.
[b]Rom 5:19[/b] [color=990000]For as through the one man's disobedience the many[/color][in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]were appointed sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many[/color][in like manner of obedience] [color=990000] shall be appointed righteous.[/color]

It needs to be seen this way, other wise it would be seen as:
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were appointed sinners without choice, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be appointed righteous without choice.

I agree.
furthermore, I don't like the theory of Total Depravity as you do.

God would not command us to do what we are notable to do.

Really what about the Ten Commandments? Is it not the condemnation of man that he cannot keep them? Yet God has said that the Law is just, and good, and spiritual.

You are correct to a point, in that God grants grace to perform what He demands, as in the gift of faith to believe the Gospel.

Ormly wrote:
Since man was entirely capable of living righteously before the cross, the bondage of corruption per Rom.8. 20,21 must have to do with his inability to extricate himself from the penalty of death. ..Which is what I have tried to get across elseware.

5The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5

46"If they sin against you--for there is no one who does not sin--and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near, 47yet if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors, saying, 'We have sinned and have acted perversely and wickedly,' 48if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray to you toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city that you have chosen, and the house that I have built for your name, 49then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause 50and forgive your people who have sinned against you, and all their transgressions that they have committed against you, and grant them compassion in the sight of those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them 51(for they are your people, and your heritage, which you brought out of Egypt, from the midst of the iron furnace).
1 Kings 8:46-51

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 51:5

20Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.
Ecclesiastes 7:20

6We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isaiah 64:6

23Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard his spots?
Then also you can do good
who are accustomed to do evil.
Jeremiah 13:23

9The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Jeremiah 17:9

10as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known." 18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Romans 3:10-18

7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Romans 8:7-9

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Romans 7:18

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:1-3

8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

How can you say that man is "entirely capable of living righteously before the cross" when it seems evident that in light of scripture, this is not reflective of God own view of sinfulness? If man was able to live in such a way that he can be seen as righteous by his own merit, then why send Jesus to die in order that through him we may attain the righteousness to pass from death into life? :-?

It immediately suggests that the cross on it's own was completely unnecessary and pointless.

Faith is not a gift. All men have faith.

You and I have been through this before, you are mis-applying the verse from Romans
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, [b]according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.[/b]

Firstly notice who Paul is writing to- Christians, as he begins this chapter, "I beseech you therefore brethren..."

Secondly notice what he says about the faith they have- God has dealt it to them, thus implying they did not have it of themselves as you propose.

Lastly notice what is does not say- it does not say anything dealing with salvation, anything about the unsaved. Thus you are interpreting one passage, and misusing it to fit your own theology, and thus you have created a god of your own invention, but not the God of Scripture.

I believe that Brother Ormly is referring to outward righteousness prior to the cross, and faith in God in place of outward righteousness prior to the cross.

Abel, Seth, Enoch, Methusaleh, Noah, Job, all were at least outwardly righteous according to the covenents they were in. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob called Israel, Joseph, and many others salted throughout the Old Testaments were either righteous in deed, or had faith accounted as righteousness according to their specific covenents.

Even under the Law, there were those that kept the Law perfectly. The Rich Man is an excellant example of keeping the 613 laws of the Law. Jesus didn't dispute that the Rich Man was righteous as far as the Law.

Jesus wanted him to go farther, into the righteousness of the heart.

Paul was faultless in keeping the Law, but many who kept all the laws hadn't an ounce of love in them, such as the Pharisees.

But once Jesus was risen, the New Covenant came into effect, and the Law was not enough. Nor can man come into the righteousness of Jesus without the aid of God.

[color=993300]John 6:43. Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[/color]

Ormly appears to be trying to engage you in a debate you can't win, since he is speaking from what man can do on his own prior to the cross, while we Christians think automatically of how impossible it is to be holy after the cross.

As to utter depravity, as in being incapable of being good in deeds, some people managed it, so it wasn't impossible. Just very hard, which is why when the Law came in, Moses and company designed ways to build a fence around the Torah, the Law, to keep one from breaking it.

If you were well trained, and well behaved after you reached the age of twelve, (eleven for girls) you were most likely keeping the Law. And if you did stumble here or there, you could make a sin offering and get out of it. And every year there was the Day of Atonement, for anything you might have missed.

Holiness was not a quality enjoined on anyone under the Old Covenents.

We don't think much of them in general, because our burden under Christ is to be righteous on the inside, as well as to walk in the Law, and that is impossible for anyone to do perfectly, unless they were Jesus, which we are not.

Holiness, in thought, word and deed, in absolute perfection, on the other hand, is impossible on this planet while you are alive.

Blessings,

Forrest

Actually, Ormly, I was speaking to outward righteousness as opposed to inward righteousness.

Outward rightousness was all that was required under the Old Covenents, and once you added faith, as Noah, Japeth, Job, Abraham, and at least Joseph did, even that alone was enough.
And it's prbably what saved David, regardless of all his faults.

Blessings,

Forrest

Ormly wrote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Actually, Ormly, I was speaking to outward righteousness as opposed to inward righteousness.

But God rewarded those who had inward righteousness so any blanket statement to the contrary where man can't do this and can't that is simply because he won't/wouldn't do it, not because he couldn't.

Very true. But God wasn't demanding inward righteousness at the time. Now He is.

But since perfection left us with Adam's fall, I don't thing God was expecting it any longer. After all, we had been made unable to be perfect any longer.

Blessings,

Forrest

If man could be jsutified by law, then Paul's words here are negated, [b]"for what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh"[/b]

Then also Paul said, " by the law comes knowledge of sin", and also "no flesh shall be justified by the law" or, "the law worketh wrath"

The people who were justified in the OT had a faith in the one exemplified in the sacrifices according to the promise of Genesis 3:16. The Seed to come was the promise and hope of Israel.

We are "perfect" because He is, and He is before the Throne pleading His finished work for His people. The Spirit strives and sanctifies us producing Christlikeness in us, thus removing the idea of antinomianism. Justification has been by faith, and continues by faith.

roaringlamb wrote:

God would not command us to do what we are notable to do.

Really what about the Ten Commandments? Is it not the condemnation of man that he cannot keep them? Yet God has said that the Law is just, and good, and spiritual.

How doe we keep them as being saved?
Because we want to keep them because we love him.
[b]John 14:15[/b] [color=990000]If you love Me, keep My commandments.[/color]
Impyeing that we can.

[b]1John 5:3[/b] [color=990000]For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome [or, difficult to obey].[/color]

Salvation is a new direction of focus, from self to God, not a new ability.

as in the gift of faith to believe the Gospel.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

In this vers Paul tells people not to be high minded over others.
in context, the word "faith" is used as the ability from faith; or what faith gave him in being useful to the Church of God; and the measure or the degree of knowledge and experience which each member had.

In other words:
don't think to high of yourself, even as God divided a measure of faith/[b]ability[/b] to each.
For even as we have many members in one body, but all members do not have the same [b]function[/b]...

You see the relation of faith and function?

Ormly,

What hours are you on the web, usually?

Blessings,

Forrest.

[i]Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
\tlet me hide myself in thee;
\tlet the water and the blood,
\tfrom thy wounded side which flowed,
\tbe of sin the double cure;
\tsave from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labors of my hands
\tcan fulfill thy law's commands;
\tcould my zeal no respite know,
\tcould my tears forever flow,
\tall for sin could not atone;
\tthou must save, and thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
\tsimply to the cross I cling;
\tnaked, come to thee for dress;
\thelpless, look to thee for grace;
\tfoul, I to the fountain fly;
\twash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
\twhen mine eyes shall close in death,
\twhen I soar to worlds unknown,
\tsee thee on thy judgment throne,
\tRock of Ages, cleft for me,
\tlet me hide myself in thee.[/i]

Just some food for thought. :-)

Does anybody out their thank themselves for making a decsion and putting THEIR faith in Christ?
When some of you pray and you thank God for his grace and love, do you also thank yourselves for your faith in Christ?
really , because if your choice and faith in God , makes you right with God then you should thank yourselves, ..becuase the faith came from you..
am i wrong?, you would just be giving credit where credit is do.. and that is to yourselves..
think about it
love
andy

andres wrote:
Does anybody out their thank themselves for making a decsion and putting THEIR faith in Christ?

Do you thank yourself for choosing to eat a great tasting steak for free, or do you thank the guy who bought it for you?

Do you thank yourself for choosing to walking out of prison because the person who loves you bailed you out? or are you thankful for His Love?

put it took you walking out of prison to make you free, your choice to leave. and then a person could still say i had the right mind to leave that place but some people dont have that right mind to leave, why do you think are prisons are so full?
but if someone made me free, and then carried me out and erased my guilt, how can i thank myself , that takes away all boasting on my self and leaves room only for me to boast on Christ who did the work from start to finish..
love andy

andres wrote:
put it took you walking out of prison to make you free, your choice to leave.

andres wrote:
but if someone made me free, and then carried me out and erased my guilt,

that takes away all boasting on my self and leaves room only for me to boast on Christ who did the work from start to finish..

You are confusing works of the law with faith.
[b]Rom 4:2[/b] [color=990000]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.[/color]
Did Abraham choose to believe?

[b]Rom 4:3[/b] [color=990000]For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."[/color](Gen. 15:6)
If Abraham didn't choose, but God did it for him, Abraham would not be rightoeus.
Abraham would not be rightoeus because he didn't choose.
In a way, our choice makes us righteous.

All we do is chhose to believe, and Christ does all the reast.

if a person can choose God because, he can make a rational decsion, for God, then its not what Christ did but what the man does, so if you were to follow this logic, it would lead you to this:
that it would be possiable that no one would choose Christ, because it would be left to man .and if mankind did not want Christ then they would have a chance not to choose Him.. Then Christ's death could have been in vain.. and really useless .. for it could have saved none..
so lets keep going with this thinking, why should we pray then for God to save sinners?, if God could not save a man unless the man allows God to save him.. so then your prayers to God would come to naught, for man has the power over GOD.. instead we would need to wait on man to choose God and not on God to save man. follow your logic out..who has the power over one another GOD or man?
love
andy
p.s. sorry for misspelled words and bad grammer, forgive me..

I'd hate to throw a "wet blacket", but:

60When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6:60-65

15No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
John 15:15-17

Obviously, Jesus was talking to his disciples in both cases. But was he - in principle - referring to them exclusively, or [i]all[/i] who would come to follow him?

andres wrote:
so lets keep going with this thinking, why should we pray then for God to save sinners?, if God could not save a man unless the man allows God to save him.. so then your prayers to God would come to naught, for man has the power over GOD.. instead we would need to wait on man to choose God and not on God to save man. follow your logic out..who has the power over one another GOD or man?
love
andy
p.s. sorry for misspelled words and bad grammer, forgive me..

Simple answer: Because Christ told told us to pray! :-P

Seriously though, our prayers [i]do not[/i] change the will of God by us tring to impose our own will upon him; such would be sorcery to say the least. As such, when we pray and intercede for others, we are [i]declaring[/i] that God is omnipotent and in charge of everything, that his will is perfect, and as such we seek to humble ourselves before this saying "not my will, but yours in this area." Ever noticed that the prayers that seem to be answered the easiest tend to be the ones where you know with certainty that what you're praying for is in line with God's will even before you say the words?

andres wrote:
if a person can choose God because, he can make a rational decsion, for God, then its not what Christ did but what the man does, so if you were to follow this logic, it would lead you to this:
that it would be possiable that no one would choose Christ, because it would be left to man.

The Gosple is true and all what God says is true.

and if mankind did not want Christ then they would have a chance not to choose Him

Then Christ's death could have been in vain.. and really useless .. for it could have saved none..

In your view, if one doesn't believe it, is because God didn't give them that belief, therefore, it would be God's fault for them going to hell.

Face the fact of Scripture.
Did Abraham freely choose to believed God on his own, or did God do it for him?
If God did it for him, why, then did God test him offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

Ormly, you are correct, those are to fine points that do demand a well thought out answer..
but just not right now..., sorry I could not answer sooner, i am a teacher so from about 630 Am-500 pm I am either on my way to school or coming back from school, but i will answer
thank you for your patience
love
andy

Logic wrote:
In your view, if one doesn't believe it, is because God didn't give them that belief, therefore, it would be God's fault for them going to hell.

No, it is not God's fault at all, man is at fault because every human is full of sin from the moment of birth. The problem is not with God at all, His demands are the same to every man. Just because He has created something does not mean that He must indiscriminately pour out His love upon them.

Take this example. If I am walking down the street and come upon five homelss men who all ask for money, yet I give money to only one or two of them, am I evil? Or can I not give as I see fit? I do not owe money to any, so itis of mercy, and grace that I give it to a few. In this same fashion, God does not have to give anything to anyone, yet He does because of mercy and grace.

Face the fact of Scripture.
Did Abraham freely choose to believed God on his own, or did God do it for him?
If God did it for him, why, then did God test him offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

This is a wonderful point, but look at all that God had done to test Abraham up to this point, therefore it was decision based upon God's revelation to Abraham. Which is what happens in conversion, the Holy Spirit works in conjunction with the Word or God's revelation of Christ, and in this manner a new birth or birth from above (as the Greek says) takes place resulting in faith to believe. This is why Jesus tells Nicodemas, "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God", and He goes on to say, "that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit". Later, Jesus would say that the flesh is profitable for nothing.

Now we must also take into consideration that 1 Corinthians 1 tells us that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit and that they are foolishness to him, and Paul also makes the point that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing, i.e. the natural man. So if a natural man cannot understand spiritual things how can he understand the Gospel except there be a spiritual birth first? Sadly in our Humanistic pragmatic Church of today we have turned from the Historic view of the New Birth, and thus changed the "ordo salutis" or order of salvation into something it never was.

Ormly wrote:
I find the easiest prayers answered to be the ones where God isn't needed to answer them.

So in essence, God helps us when we help ourselves? :-? That in of itself is a full oxymoron.

roaringlamb wrote:

Logic wrote:
In your view, if one doesn't believe it, is because God didn't give them that belief, therefore, it would be God's fault for them going to hell.

No, it is not God's fault at all, man is at fault because every human is full of sin from the moment of birth. The problem is not with God at all, His demands are the same to every man. Just because He has created something does not mean that He must indiscriminately pour out His love upon them.

Take this example. If I am walking down the street and come upon five homelss men who all ask for money, yet I give money to only one or two of them, am I evil? Or can I not give as I see fit? I do not owe money to any, so itis of mercy, and grace that I give it to a few. In this same fashion, God does not have to give anything to anyone, yet He does because of mercy and grace.

Face the fact of Scripture.
Did Abraham freely choose to believed God on his own, or did God do it for him?
If God did it for him, why, then did God test him offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

This is a wonderful point, but look at all that God had done to test Abraham up to this point, therefore it was decision based upon God's revelation to Abraham. Which is what happens in conversion, the Holy Spirit works in conjunction with the Word or God's revelation of Christ, and in this manner a new birth or birth from above (as the Greek says) takes place resulting in faith to believe. This is why Jesus tells Nicodemas, "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God", and He goes on to say, "that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit". Later, Jesus would say that the flesh is profitable for nothing.

Now we must also take into consideration that 1 Corinthians 1 tells us that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit and that they are foolishness to him, and Paul also makes the point that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing, i.e. the natural man. So if a natural man cannot understand spiritual things how can he understand the Gospel except there be a spiritual birth first? Sadly in our Humanistic pragmatic Church of today we have turned from the Historic view of the New Birth, and thus changed the "ordo salutis" or order of salvation into something it never was.

Amen!

(It's funny, in the past month, just about everywhere I go to do something that involves my Bible - sermon podcasts, pastoral care, evangelism, preparing a small-group discussion or just simple fellowship - 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:5 is always popping up! Coincidence? Obsession? Or maybe something new that God wants me to grow and mature in?)

John MacArthur's latest video podcast from his church actually covers this issue of exactly who initiates faith in the area of belief and tries to answer the question of why Christians "get it" while unbelievers don't:

[b]"Why We Believe While Others Reject"[/b]
[url=http://boss.streamos.com/download/swn/lightsource/ministries/gt/mp4/gt_whywebelieve_20070429.mp4?siteid=podcast]mp4 video[/url]
[url=http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=transcripts&aid=90-322_T]Written Transcript[/url]

I personally don't agree with everything "Johnny Mac" says theologically (specifically his strong cessationist stance), but this one gave me a lot to think about nonetheless.

It is interesting to see just how effacing the Gospel really is to man. Man can do nothing to initiate the wondrous gift of faith unto salvation, and perhaps this is the biggest slap in the face to man who believes he somehow warrants it just by being born.

I agree with on Bro MacArthur, I don't agree with all he says, but much of it is very good:-)
and to think at one time I would go nowhere near him because he was the dreaded "C" word.(Calvinist for those wondering :-D )

Same here! :-P

(Though it should be noted that both Calvinism and historical Arminianism both share a common view of human depravity. The difference being in the Who/What/Where/When and How it is overcome.)

“Face the fact of Scripture.”
1.”Did Abraham freely choose to believed God on his own, or did God do it for him?”
A) To believe in GOD you need the Spirit of GOD.
If Abraham had believed God out of his own natural mind he would have considered the Promise of God Foolishness. BECAUSE THE SCRIPTURE SAYS THIS” But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned
“But he that is Spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is not judged” 1Corth 2: 14-15
The Spirit of God let Abraham judge the promise of God as true, hence Abraham believed and he was counted right with God.
A natural man does not understand the promises nor cares for them, but a spiritual man will.
This is why Abraham could
“Against hope believe in hope”
“Be not weak in the faith”
“Staggered not at the promise of God “
And “be fully persuaded what HE (God) had promised”
Romans 4;17-21

2.If God did it for him, why, then did God test him offering up his son Isaac on the altar?
REFINMENT of his chosen vessel

roaringlamb wrote:

Logic wrote:
In your view, if one doesn't believe it, is because God didn't give them that belief, therefore, it would be God's fault for them going to hell.

No, it is not God's fault at all, man is at fault because every human is full of sin from the moment of birth. The problem is not with God at all, His demands are the same to every man. Just because He has created something does not mean that He must indiscriminately pour out His love upon them.

100 people are born in prison with life sentances, the man who has the get out of jail cards only gives 20 away.

Whoes fault is it that the rest are still in prison?
Remember, Man is born in prison, so they did not do anything to be there to start with.

and in this manner a new birth or birth from above takes place resulting in faith to believe.

roaringlamb wrote:
Man can do nothing to initiate the wondrous gift of faith unto salvation, and perhaps this is the biggest slap in the face to man who believes he somehow warrants it just by being born.

That is funny because I beleived in truth before I was saved, with out God.

Then I heard the truth about my sin and how Jesus payed the price for my sin.

I chose to belive that truth and acted upon it, then I was saved.

I didn't initiate the wondrous gift of salvation, but I had the opportunity to hear about it(faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.Rom 10:17).
After I heard the truth, I chose to believe it.

Please, proove with Scriture that every human is full of sin from the moment of birth.

If you do, I will proove frome Scripture the opposite.

Logic wrote:
Please, proove with Scriture that every human is full of sin from the moment of birth.

If you do, I will proove frome Scripture the opposite.

Understand the ramifications of that: You would in effect by trying to disprove scripture with scripture and at one suggest that there are indeed contradictions within it, hence denying that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:17-17).

Logic wrote:
Please, proove with Scriture that every human is full of sin from the moment of birth.

If you do, I will proove frome Scripture the opposite.

Then what would be the point? The Scriptures tell us to avoid foolish disputes, and this would be one.

Since you "chose" to believe, then what made you so special that you are able to freely choose though many around you remain in darkness?

If you chose God, how do you reconcile this with the Scripture that says, "we love Him, because He first loved us"? Or, "no man can come to me except the Father draw him"?

How did you understand the Gospel while yet being a natural man, and dead in sin(Ephesians 2), also how did your nature change from being a child of wrath(Ephesian 2) to a child of God without the Spirit? Who convicted you of your sin, the preacher, yourself, or was it as Scripture suggests by the Holy Spirit?

Does it not concern you that the view you are speaking(Pelagianism, or Semi-Pelagianism) has been declared heresy by many godly men, and councils that debated these issues according to the Scriptures prior to our generation?

intrcssr83 wrote:

Logic wrote:
Please, proove with Scriture that every human is full of sin from the moment of birth.

If you do, I will proove frome Scripture the opposite.

Understand the ramifications of that: You would in effect by trying to disprove scripture with scripture and at one suggest that there are indeed contradictions within it, hence denying that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:17-17).

My point is, that we hold to these ideas so strongly not consirdering that the opposing view has very good reason to oppose.
I see both sides of the conversation.

However, When this is the case, how would one understand which view to hold?

Isay that we must use reason & the scriptures in context.

There is nowhere in Scripture that alludes to a "stain" of sin, but rather..
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, [b]who were dead in trespasses and sins;[/b]
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein [b]in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:[/b]
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also [b]we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/b]

No commenatry here orm, just the Scripture.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and [b]so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:[/b]

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto [b]the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:[/b]
Colossians 1:13 [b]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,[/b] and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Sounds pretty reprobate to me

Let's line up what these verses have shown us thus far
-Man is dead in tresspasses and sins
-Man walks according the will of the prince of the power of the air(Satan)
-Man by nature(first birth) is a child of wrath
-Death, both spiritual and physical has passed upon all men
-We are under the dominion of the kingdom of darkness until delivered out of it

Here is another passage for you
2Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; [b]if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;[/b]
Notice who gives repentance to acknowledge th truth. And now what follows
2Timothy 2:26 [b]And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/b]

Plainly you can see that man outside of Christ is enslaved to satan and sin, until he is renewed and set free.

David was justified by faith, thus he wrote what Paul quotes in Romans,
"Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

But to use an OT person to put forth an argument against the NT is rather confusing? David had no benefit of the Cross, he surely believed in the coming Messiah, and was justified by that faith, but he did not go to Heaven per se, but into Abraham's bosom until CHrist descended and led those who died in faith to Heaven. Prior to this, there is no mention of any entering. Perhaps Zion could be an allusion to Heaven, but even then there is no clear cut Doctrine of any OT saint going to Heaven aside from Elijah, and Enoch. But it is dangerous to make a doctrine out of a couple lines of Scripture and not weigh the totality of Scripture in coming to a decision.

The Covenant which we are now partakers of is as the writer of Hebrews says, "better", thus there was a change after the Cross and ressurection which was not previously.

And again, you resort to attacks saying I have an agenda, but I am not the one who starts these threads bringing up things which are questionable to say the least, and then lead everyone on a goose chase, while you ignore many points made by others, and only focus on the things you want to answer, and to top it off, you ask for Scripture from everyone else without providing any yourself.

I knew I should not have gotten into this, as we are right back where we were when you left.

I have a question
1.whose will is more powerful in the area of salvation, God or man?

Quote:

"God knew Abraham's heart before Abraham knew it. God chose him because He knew Abraham would perform that which needed to be done. Simple as that."

God chose Abraham not because he was good, but because God needed a man to give something to the world, the knowledge of Faith. Abraham would not perform any better than any other man.
Just like Noah, he found favor in the eyes of the Lord. God gave Abraham the Faith to believe.
God gave Noah the faith to believe and the plans for a boat. Without them, no one would have survived the flood. Just like the faith we believers have now, it is not of ourselves, it is of the Faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. Without the Faith of Jesus Christ and His Sanctification in us, we would be no different than all the rest of the world that is lost and headed for perditions hell. So being justified by Christ, we are not found to be sinners before God or His Son would be the minister of sin. That is why we are perfect in Christ and He is the only one that can make us that way. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Christ is birthed in us only because we believe and that is because "God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved", so Christ in you is truly the "Hope of Glory", for there is certainly no Glory in man without Christ birthed in him.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's working is it? "His working, which workfare in me mightily". He is our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Just like was for Abraham, with nothing on Abraham's part to give him any glory, "but any man glory, let him glory in the Lord".

How is it that Paul would present every man Perfect in Christ? Because of the revelation Paul has of Christ in Him, revealed direct to Paul by Christ Himself.

Galatians 1:10-12 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Why was it revealed to the chiefest of sinners?

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Just like we are all called by His Grace:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The outcome of God dealing with man, not man seeking God, the outcome is:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Plan of God before the foundation of the world. No man can claim it. Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

Our righteousness? I think not, for no man is righteous, unless he is born again and Christ is in him and he in Christ which is our only "Hope of Glory".

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

God is the One that has done it all, man will never find any glory in himself, The only Glory we have is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Finally without Christ we never will be anything.

John 3:20-21 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

All are evil, without God and Christ in them.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

We all fail, will fail and have failed, there is none righteous, unless He is in Christ Jesus and Christ is birthed in Him.

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice [told], yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

"The One Place", without Christ the grave and Judgement. In Christ?

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Again:::::::::Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

"In Christ Jesus": Phillip

Ormly wrote:

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

"God knew Abraham's heart before Abraham knew it. God chose him because He knew Abraham would perform that which needed to be done. Simple as that."

God chose Abraham not because he was good, but because God needed a man to give something to the world, the knowledge of Faith.

That's not Bible....It's commentary.

Faith is listed as a gift of the Holy Ghost given after Pentecost. It is not a gift for anyone for their initial salvation.

IF YOU DON'T GET IT, YOU DON'T GET. PLEASE DON'T ADDRESS ME ANYLONGER ON THE SUBJECT. GRACE IS THE GIFT....BELIEVE OR NOT. EVERYONE HAS THE CREATED ABILITY TO DO SO.

The rest of your post I have to consider Satanic simply because it is fatalistic.

But to be generous, if you can show from scripture where man never had the ability to turn to God for his salvation I will apologize.

Ormly wrote:

andres wrote:
I have a question
1.whose will is more powerful in the area of salvation, God or man?

Man's

Think about that: by [b][i]your own confession[/i][/b] you have asserted openly that the human will is superior in power to that of God. As such you have stated that while God is indeed creator, he [i]is not[/i] all-knowing, he [i]is not[/i] infallible and of course he [i]is not[/i] all-powerful for if he truly did have these quality it would be [i]He, the Creator[/i], not the [i]creation[/i] that would have the monopoloy as to who deserves to be called Lord of Lords.

I think you should be more careful about who and what you label as satanic because throughout this thread you have, as now revealed to your intent or not, been following a man-centred theology that in effect puts the saving grace of God under your own thumb.

As a brother in Christ I wish no ill towards you personally, but out of love, I think you take some time out to turn off the computer for a moment, pray, and think things through as there's a lot at stake and you don't want to incriminate yourself unfairly.

But I didn't ask, Andres did...

Indeed I did.

It is not my intention to accuse negatively and my apologies if I come across as harsh, however I just aim to point out the logical outcomes of what you suggest.

I do not wish any feud beyond the subject matter(s) discussed, but should it indeed steer that way, I'll gladly to step out on the grounds of not wishing to stumble anyone in any way unnecessary.

Have a good weekend,

How about when God apparently deludes the foes of Israel and they turn and attack each other?

God constantly overrides the will of the believer. If not then there is a problem. The life of the Christian is that of being molded into the image of Christ which is completely contrary to our nature, and unless God changed our heart to start the process, and continued to override our will by conviction, and chastening we would never get there.

God uses the wicked desires of the reprobate for His purpose though. Look at pharaoh, and many of the kings in the book of Judges whom God raised to chasten His people. Also remember that God sends wicked spirits upon people like He did to Saul.

Orm by stating that man's will is greater than God's, you have opened a door into a very dangerous place. If it is true that God cannot sovereignly override a man's will, then the inerrancy of Scripture can be doubted, for how do we know that the writer did not add his own opinion, or thoughts? Also, if God is at the whim of man, and bases His decisions upon man's eventual decision, man is now deified and God serves the creature, which I hope you see as blasphemous, and unbiblical.

What you are espousing is nothing more than open-theism which is completely contrary to the God of the Bible who is sovereignly and meticulously ruling everything He has created. If you do not know what open-theism is, here is a link for some info
[url=http://www.theopedia.com/Open_theism]Open Theism[/url]

Orm if I say that God is sovereign over all things, that is not hyper-Calvinism, nor is it Calvinism, it is Biblical. From the very beginning, God set in order a plan, He is sovereignly bringing all things to His pre-ordained plan.

I do not think you understand what hyper-Calvinism is, nor do I think you have disproved anything I wrote with Scripture as you so often want others to do.

Man cannot respond to God in any way shape or form without God intervening. Jesus' own words,"no man can come to me unless the Father draws him" and again you have failed to, or do not wish to acknowledge the other Scriptures I have presented from Ephesians 2 which speaks of our being "children of wrath", John also wrote in his gospel that those who do not believe on Christ are under God's wrath(John 3:36).

I do not negate man's responsibilty to God's commands in light of His sovereignty. Man is dead and unable to respond to God. Adam had free-will and as our representative when he sinned, we sinned, and thus death has spread upon all. This only glorifies the righteousness transferred to us in Christ when we are born-again.

First,

Ormly, you asked for scripture example where God overrules the will of man. It was given to you. If the free will of man is inviolate as you seem to have suggested in so many posts then you have your example to the contrary. All it takes is one as you promised. Second, you question whether God gives man a new heart. Look at Ezekial 36:22 and following. God states an unconditional promise to give new hearts and put His Spirit in men and to "cause" men to obey His commands. The statements of God in this covenant are without mention and I would argue without regard to man's will. Finally, you are very familiar with Paul's statement to work out your salvation in fear and trembling for it is God who will do it according to His good pleasure. Finally, and I know how much you hate commentary, but, if you were insane and committing suicide, would you really care if I stopped you against your insane will and gave you something that healed your insanity so you wouldn't want to commit suicide anymore?

Ormly, the Ezekial quote was indeed spoken to the Israel ( I don't think it mentions the nation of Israel though ) That does not mean the promise does not apply to all saved men. Remember, as Paul makes clear, we as saved men are also part of Israel. I will accept your apparent explanation that this is a corporate promise more readily if you can explain how Israel, in a corporate sense, receives a new heart and His Spirit. Further, if God causes Israel to walk in obedience, wouldn't that include necessarily causing at least some individuals to do so? That is a rhetorical question because the answer is obvious.

Finally, I respectfully suggest that any man who disobeys God is insane. The act is suicide and the metaphor you object to is accordingly raw but not invalid. Further, Romans 8:1-8, especially, Romans 8:7 sets out pretty clearly what carnal, fleshly, unspiritual sinful man "can't" do and that is obey God. Turning to God is obedience to the command of God to repent and believe. Look at the conversion reports in Acts and please find me one example where the report is that any of those converted used their free will to be converted. In fact, as far as I've found, the only reference to free will in the Bible is in Philemon when Paul is asking the brother who is a slave to be accepted back. IF free will is so critical that God would subvert His perfect and Holy will to it, then why isn't the term or the concept used more than this one occasion in all the Bible. ( Choosing, believing and accepting are not the equivalent of free will. They are the resultant acts from the exercise of the will. You still must assess the "free" issue.) Let me save you some time and say there isn't one example in the Acts conversion accounts that report even remotely that the conversion was due to free will. The best you can do is say it is implicit but there are so many explicit scriptural references to the election and predestination of the saints and no scriptural references to man's free will in salvation. I am at a loss to understand why you always claim no scriptural support for total depravity and yet free will is your battle cry with no support whatsoever. Look at Paul's conversion, the conversion account of Lydia, and the conversion account of the entire multitude that heard Peter's sermon and you should conclude as the Bible does that as many as were appointed to believe did believe.

Even the most ardent defenders of Weslyian prevenient grace and the Arminian position confess they can't reconcile John 6 wherein Jesus is asked why some people believe Him and other's don't. I will leave Jesus' answer as the most definitive explanation I've heard.

It is not accurate to assume that sovereign individual election is inconsistent with human responsibility. It isn't. I agee with you completely that if one is damned he will not complain in the least at judgement that it wasn't his own fault.

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed(considerd) nothing and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay (restrain) his hand or say unto Him What doest thou? Daniel 4:35

"For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of HIS good pleasure" Phiippians 2:13

I know what some of you may think, How can God allow some men to go to Hell and save others to go to heaven? and i have wrestled with that question for a long time, but these words from the bible flow gently into my mind "Shall not the judge of the earth do right?" and "What shall we say then Is there unrighteousness with GOD?" "GOD forbid."
and I stopped trying to make God fit into what i think being right is and just trust that God is Righteousness, in his thinking and Actions
Just like Abraham looked over toward sodom and saw "smoke like a furnace" rising into the morning sky, .. God's will was done that day, not Abrahams and Abraham needed to trust that God is in Control. and we should do the same.
love andy
sorry about the length

The issue is not one of comfort.

I'll confess: I am [u]naturally[/u] uncomfortable of the idea of the concept of total inability, and I really would like to believe that I, to some degree, do have something [i]of my own, independant of divine intervention[/i] that can contribute to my standing with God, but in light of what has already been said, I honestly can't bring my head around to it 100%. :-?

Now, in answer to your request,

Ormly wrote:
If you can show where God, aside from Balaam and his donkey, ever overrides man's will I will apologetically stand corrected. However, you must admit that for man to be seen by God to be rebelious it is will that makes him so.

You've probably received this one so many times in response that you would be just in saying that I'm prooftexting. But let's take a thorough look:

[size=medium][b][i]14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [u]16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.[/u] 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? [i]
Romans 9:14-24[/b][/size] (emphasis added)

Lets go through it:

[i][b]v14[/b]: 14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means![/i]
Notice that whenever Paul says in Romans "what shall we say", he is responding to an argument. Given the chronological order of Romans within the epistles, Paul knows that in light of his preaching, there's going to be common objections, especially in context of the greco-Roman philosophies that were plentiful with regards to arguments of free-will versus divine authority (though in light of 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:5, Paul's opponents must have felt very disappointed when he chose to answer their objections with the gospel message rather than a logical counter-argument which he could have easily had given yet chose not to for the sake of demonstrating the power of the holy Spirit rather than natural human intelligence).

[i][b]v15-17[/b]: 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[/i]
Here Paul is referring to Exodus 9:16:
[i]But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.[/i]
and Exodus 33:19:
[i]19And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.[/i]
By citing these two examples, Paul demonstrates that God is under absolutely no obligation to give grace and mercy to anyone, he does so purely out of his own choice and pleasure. It is not something we can attain by means of human will, exertion, or works (v16) as Paul says throughout Romans 1:18-3:20 that such efforts are indeed forfeit, since those born into the Adamic nature carry the burden of original sin:
[i]12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.[/i] [b]Romans 5:12-14[/b]
Due to man's sinful nature of which death is the penalty, God is by no means indebted to extend any form of provision and hence would would be without reproach is he so chooses to refuse.

[i][b]v18[/b]: 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.[/i]
Since due to the Adamic nature man is [i]by default[/i] already corrupted, the hardening of the heart is not when God adds fresh evil to what is already there, but rather he removes that which would otherwise restrain it, allowing the sinful nature to simply "cut loose."
Listen to what Jonathan Edwards said of this in "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God":
[b]There are in the souls of wicked men those hellish principles reigning, that would presently kindle and flame out into hell fire, if it were not for God's restraints. There is laid in the very nature of carnal men, a foundation for the torments of hell. There are those corrupt principles, in reigning power in them, and in full possession of them, that are seeds of hell fire. These principles are active and powerful, exceeding violent in their nature, and if it were not for the restraining hand of God upon them, they would soon break out, they would flame out after the same manner as the same corruptions, the same enmity does in the hearts of damned souls, and would beget the same torments as they do in them. The souls of the wicked are in scripture compared to the troubled sea, Isa. lvii. 20. For the present, God restrains their wickedness by his mighty power, as he does the raging waves of the troubled sea, saying, "Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further;" but if God should withdraw that restraining power, it would soon carry all before it. Sin is the ruin and misery of the soul; it is destructive in its nature; and if God should leave it without restraint, there would need nothing else to make the soul perfectly miserable. The corruption of the heart of man is immoderate and boundless in its fury; and while wicked men live here, it is like fire pent up by God's restraints, whereas if it were let loose, it would set on fire the course of nature; and as the heart is now a sink of sin, so if sin was not restrained, it would immediately turn the soul into a fiery oven, or a furnace of fire and brimstone. [/b]

God does not need to use a miraculous means to ensure the demise of those that deserve his justice, as the sinful nature is sufficintly self-destructive for it to be accomplished. The heart of sinful man is already hard against God, so with this in mind, for God to be merciful and allow people to have their sins overcome via Christ, he must therefore [i]soften[/i] the heart so that the work of regeneration can be done by the Holy Spirit to hence fully enable saving faith within those that will believe.

So in answer to the question of does God have the power to change and overcome the human will, the answer is [i][b]Yes, for without such, no one would ever be able to know him at all.[/b][/i]

[i][b]v19-24[/b]: 19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?[/i]
Knowing intuitively what the next response would be, Paul counters the question of "By what right does God have in blaming people for their sins if He is the one that hardens the heart?" by saying that since God is the creator, he has every right of ownership and control over his creation, that to challenge such authority is to at one demonstrate an unreasonable and irreverent attitude towards the Lordship of God. He can make it, change it, destroy it, rebuild it; all because he is the one that has the first and final say into how it is to be molded. It he wants to create a masterpiece that would reflect his own glory and pefection, bravo, he has that choice, but at that same time, if he wanted to create something that would be completely imperfect, evil, destructive to others and went against everything good hence making it expendable, God has that choice too in addition to the right to change either into something else for own pleasure.
But even so, the medium that he molds is not worthy of use as it comes from the same stock: Adam's, hence making it for all intents and purposes of unworthy quality to craft a masterpiece for all actively sin before God either hardens or softens them:
[i]18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. [/i][/b]
That God should show any form of compassion to man in light of the above by moulding the unclean essence into a vessel of honor worthy of his love when He has absolutely no obligation to is in of itself a testimony of grace.
[i]3When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,
4what is man that you are mindful of him,
and the son of man that you care for him?[/i][b]Psalm 8:3-4[/b]

Salvation occurs when the Holy Spirit, took us despite being [i]"dead in transgressions and sins"[/i] (Ephesians 2:1), and [i]"not able to understand the spiritual things of God because they are spiritually discerned"[/i] (1 Corinthians 2:14), began working on our hearts, removing falsehoods, bondages and strongholds; molding us into being Born Again so that at just the right moment, we would no longer be hostile and resistant to our Heavenly Father and the Work of his Son, but rather we find your eyes being opened wide, our conscience no longer justifying itself but is instead convicted of [i]"sin, righteousness and judgement"[/i] (John 16:8) to the point that we all cry out "what must I do to be saved?" after which we receive the message of Christ and him crucified, prompting us not by human willpower, but the direction of the Holy Spirit, to make to the declaration that Jesus Christ is Lord, leading to the creation of a new creature, whose attitudes, affections, and priorities have been forever changed once and for all so that idolatry becomes worship, obligation becomes privilege,
hostility becomes love and anguish becomes joy.

[size=medium]b] [i]24Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen![/i][/size]

I think these verse tie in as well.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 [b]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

Did you see the statement about those who received Christ? How were they born, by man's will? by the will of the flesh? or by God?

Please stop trying to make God the one who must answer to man's idea of fairness, and let us stoop and answer Him in dust and ashes for our sin, and unthankfulness towards His gracious provision of life even when we were dead in sin, and children of wrath.

Brother andres, excellent points as well as yours too brother intrcsr.

“So in answer to the question of does God have the power to change and overcome the human will, the answer is Yes, for without such, no one would ever be able to know him at all”.-intrcsr

“Please stop trying to make God the one who must answer to man's idea of fairness, and let us stoop and answer Him in dust and ashes for our sin, and unthankfulness towards His gracious provision of life even when we were dead in sin, and children of wrath”- roaring lamb

amen.

Roaring Lamb, thanks for taking the time to lay the position out. I know that took a lot of time. Given the way you write and think, you would probably love to read the book Still Sovereign which is a compendium of great writers on the subject each taking on a segment of the doctrines involved. Their approach is more in line with teaching. A more generalized treatment is done by a group of men headed by Charles Spurgeon and they do an equally terrific job in more of a preaching style. The work is called Expositions of the Doctrine of Grace. It's on line for free. "Roaring Lamb" is a great turn of phrase too btw. Our King is a the lamb, but he reigns in power. The lion of Judah is coming. Amen.

roaringlamb wrote:
If it is true that God cannot sovereignly override a man's will, then the inerrancy of Scripture can be doubted, for how do we know that the writer did not add his own opinion, or thoughts?

Paul gave his own opinion, or thoughts.

[b]1Corinth 7:25[/b] [color=990000]Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.[/color]
[b]1Corinth 7:40[/b] [color=990000]But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.[/color]
[b]2Corinth 8:10[/b] [color=990000]And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.[/color]

Scripture is like Christ:
it was writen 100% by man, but is 100% God
Christ is 100% man, but is 100% God.

Scripture has the personality of the writer himself, withalso his mind on the things writen, however, it is still 100% God.

roaringlamb
and bases His decisions upon man's eventual decision, man is now deified and God serves the creature, which I hope you see as blasphemous, and unbiblical.

roaringlamb
Orm if I say that God is sovereign over all things, that is not hyper-Calvinism, nor is it Calvinism, it is Biblical.

roaringlamb
Man cannot respond to God in any way shape or form without God intervening....Man is dead and unable to respond to God

What makes the relaitionship between God and man any difrent than any other?
If man can respond to truth while unsaved without divine intervention, why must we need divine intervention to respond to truth of the gosple?

roaringlamb
Adam had free-will and as our representative when he sinned, we sinned,

whyme
If the free will of man is inviolate as you seem to have suggested in so many posts then you have your example to the contrary. All it takes is one as you promised.

intrcssr83
Now, in answer to your request,
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?[i]
Romans 9:14-24 (emphasis added)

[b]2Tim 2:20-21[/b] [color=990000]But in a great house not only are there vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
:21 Then if anyone purifies himself from these, he will be a vessel to honor, having been sanctified and made useful to the Master, having been prepared to every good work.[/color]
It come to your own responcibility

roaringlamb
Did you see the statement about those who received Christ? How were they born, by man's will? by the will of the flesh? or by God?

Romans 9:13 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau.This is talking about two nations

If this is indeed true, then why would the Holy Spirit have Paul write
Romans 9:11 (For [b]the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)[/b]
Notice they had not done anything good or bad, and even if you say this is about a nation, you still uphold God's election, because God is stil electing Jacob, and passing over Esau.

An interesting thing about the Greek word used for "elect". It is eklektos, which not surprisingly is from the same roots where we get the Greek word used for church "ekklesia". They are showing a "called out, chosen people".

Now another thing that you must address if this is about nations, is why does the Holy Spirit have Paul address the issue of people in verses 6,7,&8?
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 [b]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[/b]

Verse 8 wonderfully sums up the point, and it also goes with what Jesus said to Nicodemas about that which is born of the flesh is flesh.(John3)

Then we must address the point being made in verses 14-16
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[i]Why would the Holy Spirit have Paul write this, unless He knew people would try to say, "that's not fair!" Or those who would accuse the Creator of ill treatment of His creation. Then Paul goes on...[/i]
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[i]Why would Paul write this if this was about nations? Again how would this negate election? God is just whether He saves anyone, or damns everyone, because He is God. He has created us, we have not created Him.[/i]
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[i]To top it all off, God shows man just how little he has to do with His election. God does not look down the corridor of time, and see those who will have faith, and then elect them. If this were true, then man is elected because of some good work, and he has something to boast of before his fellow man, and before God. Rather God has elected certain ones to salvation, and others He will pass by. This is all over the Old Testament, and since God says, "I am God I change not" it would be safe to say He is the same.[/i]

Paul goes on with an Old Testament illustration of Pharaoh being hardened, and chosen for the very purpose of being Pharaoh, and oppressing God's people. God uses the wicked and their base desires to further His work, much like He uses Satan at times to chasten His children. Again, even Satan is created, and thus is under God's authority. Now back to the point.

Here is what the conclusion of all this is, and the human rejection of it is addressed as well.
Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[i]Remember God does not have to save any, but that He would save any should cause all to worship Him for His great mercy towards the monster that is man.[/i]
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[i]Here is the argument, "but if all are acting according to how they were made, how can God find fault?" Watch how this is answered...[/i]
Rom 9:20 Nay but, [b]O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/b]
[i]The point is brought back to how He is God, and we are not. He has made us, and thus He is sovereign to do whatsoever He will with whom He will, when He will. Of course this would be terrible if God were a monster such as us, but He is not at all, for He gives life, and mercy to all, even those who will ultimately perish.[/i]
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[i]Again, if this is speaking of nations, why this illustration? The lump of course would be man. Does not the Creator have absolute power, and right to do what He will? Shall not the King of all the Earth do right? Of course He will!!! But we always jump to conclusions about who will be saved, how many will be saved etc. without trusting that not one of those whom Christ died for will be lost, and not one drop of His blood that was shed will wasted, for He saves to the uttermost them that come to Him.[/i]

I know this long, but I want to say, I am not here to defend what is known as Calvinism, but rahter the Biblical perspective of man and God. I do not care for names, for I am a Christian as are any others who are washed in His blood. So let us go on in a Christian manner, God bless you all.

Galatians 2:4-6 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person: for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

"God accepteth no man's person:" No man can reach God by what he is or what he does.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This faith is God Faith in Christ and the only Faith that will save to the utmost.

Galatians 3:21-29 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham's seed, yes, Abraham's faith, no. The seed of Abraham only brought Christ and His Faith unto salvation. Abraham's faith only brought counted faith, Christ Faith brings Salvation unto Children of God in Christ Jesus. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." That faith is come. Col 1:3 ¶ We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:

Abraham's faith was reckoned, after the Cross, faith came by Grace unto salvation in Christ Jesus, being baptized into His death and seated in Heavenly places in Christ with Him.

If you study very carefully, you will see that Jesus Christ is come in Flesh, and is also in our flesh which the Holy Spirit has quickened to be the temple of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ in us.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Show me where man has anything to do with this Christ in you.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not my works, but His. Not my faith, but His.
Not my life, but His. Not my anything, but all His.

His Life in US. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Most of all: Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

And in context: Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

If you want more, there are 224 such scriptures of Christ Life, that is the Statement; "In Christ" and all other ways of making it truth.

The words in Christ occur in 224 verses, including 77 exact phrase matches shown first:

------------------------------------------------
Check it out. Just a sample.

Act 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

ETC: ETC:

Christ Life, In Christ and Christ in you:

Phillip

Brother Philip I always look forward to reading you posts, as they are full of Scripture, and exalt the person of Christ. Praise the Lord for all Christ has done, is doing, and will do!!!

Blessings to you Brother.

roaringlamb wrote:

Romans 9:13 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau.This is talking about two nations

If this is indeed true,

God is stil electing Jacob, and passing over Esau.

roaringlamb wrote:
Now another thing that you must address if this is about nations, is why does the Holy Spirit have Paul address the issue of people in verses 6,7,&8?
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Why would the Holy Spirit have Paul write this, unless He knew people would try to say, "that's not fair!" Or those who would accuse the Creator of ill treatment of His creation.

Why would Paul write this if this was about nations?

Again how would this negate election?

God is just whether He saves anyone, or damns everyone, because He is God.

Your view has Him "damming people", because it is God giving people the faith to choose; they cant' choose Him to save them if HE doesn't give them the faith.
I say all men have the ability to choose, therefore, they forefit salvation when they choose not God.

To top it all off, God shows man just how little he has to do with His election. God does not look down the corridor of time, and see those who will have faith, and then elect them. If this were true, then man is elected because of some good work, and he has something to boast of before his fellow man, and before God.

Rather God has elected certain ones to salvation, and others He will pass by.

He would not pass by any.

Remember God does not have to save any, but that He would save any should cause all to worship Him for His great mercy towards the monster that is man.
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Brother Philip I always look forward to reading you posts, as they are full of Scripture, and exalt the person of Christ. Praise the Lord for all Christ has done, is doing, and will do!!!

2Peter 3:9b ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This Scripture is not about all people coming to repentance. Who are the books of First and Second Peter written to? Christians of course, prior to this portion, Peter says, "beloved be assured of this very thing..." Who are the beloved Peter is adressing? Again Christians.

So who are the ones that God is not willing to let perish? Well, let us see who the Epistles are addressed to.
1Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Then
2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
Just so we know that Peter is writing to fellow Christians.

Now Peter is not saying that God is willing that "all" meaning every person ever born would be brought to repentance, as if this was the case then how could Paul say in Romans 9, "but who hath resisited His will?"

So if Almighty God was willing that all would be saved, yet one perished, God's power is then limited, and again man is deified, because the ultimate choice of salvation is up to man. Of course it is illogical to look at the world around us, and not see plainly that not all are saved. So now according to your view, it is because man has not chosen God, and thus man perishes. Yet according to Scripture, God hardens whom He will, and grants mercy to whom He will.

So we can clearly and logically deduce that Peter is telling them that in the midst of the persecutions they're in, not one of them shall perish, as not one of God's elect(1 Peter 1) will perish, because God is not willing that they should, but rather that they will come to repentance.

If we are justified in saying that from all eternity God has intended to display His mercy in pardoning a vast multitiude of sinners, why do some people object so strenuously when we say that from all eternity God has intended to display His justice in punishing other sinners?
-Lorraine Boettner

Again, salvation is not a birthright to man, but rather reprobation.

Once more, even with your view of Romans 9 God is still passing over people to bless His elect only. Don't you find this unfair if everyman has the ability to choose, but some nations are not elected to salvation? What of all the nations surrounding Israel in the OT that perished without knowledge of the God of Israel? Did God choose Israel to bless, and reveal Himself to while allowing the other nations around them to perish?

If God favours nations now, then His word is not true, for He says He is not a respector of men, and that there is no more national superiority.

Romans 9:13 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau.This is talking about two nations

Rom 9:11 (For [b]the children[/b] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Why then doesn't the Holy Spirit say this, but instead emphasises people in this chapter as in those who are not Israel because they of the flesh, and not of the true Israel which Paul tells us of in Galatians
Galatains 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the [b]Israel of God.[/b]

roaringlamb wrote:

2Peter 3:9b ...not willing that any should perish, but that [u][b]all[/b] should come to [b]repentance[/b][/u].

This Scripture is not about all people coming to repentance. Who are the books of First and Second Peter written to? Christians of course, prior to this portion, Peter says, "beloved be assured of this very thing..." Who are the beloved Peter is adressing? Again Christians.

roaringlamb wrote:
Now Peter is not saying that God is willing that "all" meaning every person ever born would be brought to repentance, as if this was the case then how could Paul say in Romans 9, "but who hath resisited His will?"

Do you not agree that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance?

So if Almighty God was willing that all would be saved, yet one perished, God's power is then limited,

and again man is deified, because the ultimate choice of salvation is up to man.

If God does not put it in man to believe, then how is there justice to be directed to hell? For man did not reject the truth to have Gods wrath upon him.

Once more, even with your view of Romans 9 God is still passing over people to bless His elect only. Don't you find this unfair if everyman has the ability to choose, but some nations are not elected to salvation?

What of all the nations surrounding Israel in the OT that perished without knowledge of the God of Israel?

If God favours nations now, then His word is not true, for He says He is not a respector of men, and that there is no more national superiority.

Why then doesn't the Holy Spirit say this,

The whole chapter of Romans 9 is about Jacob(Israel) & Esau.
Paul starts out the chapter saying something about Israel:
[b]Rom 9:3-4[/b] [color=990000]For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[b]:4[/b] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;[/color]
They are the [color=990000]Children of Promise[/color](V.8)
He was talking about the two nations that came out of Abraham.
Esau is of the flesh.
Not of the "Seed".
Not of the Promise.

and not of the true Israel which Paul tells us of in Galatians

All in all, Man has his own free will to reject the Truth of the Gosple and not let God save them;
or, man may use his own free will to aknowlege the Truth of the Gosple and act upon it and have God save them.

Logic wrote:
Do we have a choice to go to hell?
Do we have a choice to reject the Truth?
Do we have a choice to reject Christ?
If not, then how does man go to hell with out a choice?
If God puts it in man to believe, what Glory is that to God? For there was no test of love.

If God does not put it in man to believe, then how is there justice to be directed to hell? For man did not reject the truth to have Gods wrath upon him.

RoaringLamb wrote:

Once more, even with your view of Romans 9 God is still passing over people to bless His elect only. Don't you find this unfair if everyman has the ability to choose, but some nations are not elected to salvation?

They had choice:
Think of the harlot, Rahab.
Think of Ruth.
[b]Lev 19:33-34[/b] [color=990000]And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
[b]:34[/b] But the stranger that dwelles with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God[/color]
I am sure there were many others who had a chance for God's mercy.

What of all the nations surrounding Israel in the OT that perished without knowledge of the God of Israel?

Israel was feared, famous for what God did for them with Egypt, even after Jericho.
That is why Rahab did what she did.
I am sure many had the chance to do as she.

Yet oddly, history shows that very few people do turn to Israel, presumably not wanting to take on Israel's burden of the Law.

As to those before Christ, they were not given the option to choose their fate, as those after Christ may be, but will be judged according to their works under their own covenents.

And despite Christians being at great pains to get the word out about Christ for centuries, there are more that refuse to hear even the words, than those that listen, and still less are those that actually choose Christ.

Yes, God would have all come to Him through Christ that will listen. And yet many never hear about Christ sufficiently to choose Him, because their ears are stopped up, and their eyes blinded by the world, and by the pride of life, and by the will of God.

[color=993300]Matthew 13

1. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.[/color]

When Jesus Himself taught, He did not want everyone to understand Him.

The only thing that God offers us is the chance to say yes or no, after we have heard and understood the gospel. Yet very few do hear and understand the gospel, and not all say yes.

God is sovereign, and He can close the ears and eyes of whomever He wants, and He can open the ears and eyes of whomever He wants. Yes, God wants a willing heart, or He would not offer the choice at all. But there seem to be a lot of hearts out there that God doesn't want, and that is not a point of pride for us, but a 'there, but for the grace of God, go I'.

Which is the whole point.

Blessings,

Quote:
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Roaringlamb:
"So if Almighty God was willing that all would be saved, yet one perished, God's power is then limited,"
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Logic:
"Did God will that Adam eat of that tree?" Yes.
If not Adam would have not eaten, Believing his wife and Satan instead of God was his disobedience. Sin.
"Adam did, though." And we all die.

"Did that make God's power limited?" Absolutely not. It made His power ultimate.

"God realy didn't want Adam to eat of it." He did and brought forth Jesus Christ and put the elect in Christ before it ever happened.

Did Adam make God less sovren? No. Even showing us that God is totally sovereign in all he has done in Christ.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roaringlamb:
"and again man is deified, because the ultimate choice of salvation is up to man."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Logic:
Think of the converse.
"Do we have a choice to go to hell?" No, that was in Adam's unbelief.

"Do we have a choice to reject the Truth?"
We can do nothing less without Christ and the Holy Spirit.

"Do we have a choice to reject Christ?" No. No one would choose Christ with out God's Choice in us, Jer 8:6 I hearkened and heard, [but] they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.

"If not, then how does man go to hell with out a choice?" Man has no choice, he is bound for hell. Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

"If God puts it in man to believe, what Glory is that to God? For there was no test of love."
That was God's Plan before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

"If God does not put it in man to believe, then how is there justice to be directed to hell? For man did not reject the truth to have Gods wrath upon him."

No man will see God without Christ. No justice needed, just plain truth.

Job 14:1 Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble.
Job 15:14 What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

Limited Atonement is against the character of God, and goes against His teaching.

Would God pass by a man who was beaten and left for dead?
The "Good Samaritan" is Christ and the man who went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves is all mankind.
Limited Atonement is haveing Christ pass by some and haveing compassion on some.
Christ would never pass by.
He gives all man the ability to believe, but most choose not to.

Unlimited Atonement is against God's teaching also, or there would be no hell or Judgement or condemnation and Christ would not have had to go to the Cross for the world, so the Father could bring son's into His House, as it pleases Him.

Romans 8:1-16 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Directed atonement by the Father through Christ Jesus by the Gospel of Paul. Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Unlimited Atonement is against God's teaching also, or there would be no hell or Judgement or condemnation and Christ would not have had to go to the Cross for the world, so the Father could bring son's into His House, as it pleases Him.

[b]1Johnn 2:2[/b] [color=990000]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also [b]for the sins of the whole world[/b].[/color]
This us Unlimited Atonement!
Please, get your facts straight.

"Directed atonement" along with limited Atonement is partiality, which God has not.

Quote:
"Show me where it states sinful man could not ever turn to God on his own and I will believe you. Simple as that."

Ecc 1:8 All things [are] full of labour; man cannot utter [it]: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

Ecc 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek [it] out, yet he shall not find [it]; yea further; though a wise [man] think to know [it], yet shall he not be able to find [it].

Ecc 10:14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Who is the One that Gives birth after already being born of flesh. What is born of flesh is flesh. What is born of Spirit is Spirit.
It must be birth of the Spirit of Christ and no man can birth himself in Christ Jesus. It is God who chose Mary to birth Christ through. It is God who chooses to birth His Seed, "Christ" in who He has chosen. 1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Who is the Word? Of Course it is Christ.
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

If man cannot comprehend Christ who is life, How could they possible choose God. The Holy Spirit had to come to teach man who Christ is, by Judgement and and conviction of sin.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Then the Holy Spirit give us the ability to choose Christ as the Son of The Living God, and then when we believe, we are saved. It is nothing that man has done or can do, but God who calls those that are chosen. They will be saved, it is God's Choice not man's.

Jesus had to pray for this: Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Without the Comforter, none could be saved, that is why Christ had to go away. Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Man has no chance to choose God and see spiritual things or even the Kingdom of God unless He is Born from above by the Father through the Incorruptable Seed of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

John 3:1-13 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Nicodemus was a master of Israel and he did not know how to get to God, even though he was standing before Him.

In Christ: Phillip

Wonderfully stated Phillip, thank you again.

roaringlamb wrote:
Wonderfully stated Phillip, thank you again.

Christinyou,
Ecc 1:8,17, 10:14 are irrelivent to the subject.
John 3:3 has nothing to do whith the "truth", but only the "kingdom of God"

Christinyou wrote:
If man cannot comprehend Christ who is life, How could they possible choose God.

Prove to me that unregenerate man can not choose to acknowledge truth.

You can not prove it when reality proves that man chooses to acknowledge truth already.

The legal system relies on truth of fact to present charges against the guilty and set the innocent free.

Man is presented the truth of the LAW to convict of sin and man repents.

Your cultish definition of faith hinders you from understanding a lot of this reality.

Christinyou wrote:
Then the Holy Spirit give us the ability to choose Christ

Do not twist reality and say that man is so totaly depraved that he can not choose truth.

If man was "Totaly Depraved" There would be no mathamatics, because man would reject logic.

There would be no leagal system, because man would reject justice.

There would be no history, because man would erase it.

There would be no civilisation, because Anarchy would rule.

You must not twist reality with your cultish view and decieve the Brethren.

"Prove to me that unregenerate man can not choose to acknowledge truth."

.."But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: For they are foolishness unto him:Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 corth 2:14
.." There is none that understandeth , There is none that seeketh after God." Rom 3:11

love
andy

partiality:
1. the state or character of being partial.
2. a favorable bias or prejudice.
3. an inclination to favor.

Your god is partial, even if he chooses to give his faith to one, for no reason of who the recipient is.
Your god still has a favorable bias toward those he gives his faith to and a prejudice against those that he chooses not to give his faith to.

Your god will pass by those who are bleeding and left for dead as the man who went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves(Luke 10:30-35.

I called Christinyou cultish for this reason:

occult:
[b]1.[/b] [i]beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious[/i]
Man can not know with out this special gift of faith.
[b]2.[/b] [i]secret; disclosed or communicated only to the [b]initiated[/b].[/i]
Man can not know axept he be chosen.
[b]3.[/b] [i]to block or shut off (an object) from view; hide.[/i]
See Psalm 19:1-3v for the contrary
[b]4.[/b] [i]not apprehended by the mind, beyond the range of understanding"
&
having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence; beyond ordinary understanding;[/i]
"If man cannot comprehend Christ who is life, How could they possible choose God."

andres wrote:
"Prove to me that unregenerate man can not choose to acknowledge truth."

.."But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: For they are foolishness unto him: Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 corth 2:14
.." There is none that understandeth , There is none that seeketh after God." Rom 3:11

Love
andy

we are not talking about knowing there is a God , but about a man's salvation in Christ Jesus. please explain what 1 corth 2:14 means?

Logic ,1. Do you believe that you could see yourself , by yourself , a sinful man?

2.Do you also believe that you , by yourself could see and choose Christ as your Lord and salvation?

3.a. do you also believe that you could make God wait till you are ready to accept HIM.?
b.That if God wanted you to be saved , that God could not do anything in your unconverted heart untill you allowed Him to come into your unconverted Heart?
c. that your human unconverted will would be stonger then God's supreme, Holy, Just, righteous will?

d. do you believe that man can overthrow God, in any area?

love andy

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Who has given us the Mind of Christ? Certainly not natural man's ability. We are also to renew our old mind to the New Mind of Christ. Who helps us renew the old man mind? The Holy Spirit . Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This is the only way. Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

What is "in Christ" Mean? What does Christ in you mean?

If we don't know, then it is up to man, but not salvation.

Right on Andres, In Christ: Phillip

I would like to put forth a question to my "free-will" brethren, actually two questions to start with.

1) God has said the following
"Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand"
and again
"Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?"
And again
"Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it"

These are a few of many many verses that declare that what God purposes He accomplishes.

Now when you say that man by his own free will can thwart God's purpose, you erect an idol upon which you hang free will and deify man. For now your god is at the mercy of man's decision.

So of course allow me to state what I mean by man not having a free will. Man of course can and will make decisions in his everyday life, and thus it appears he has free will to do as he wills. But the Scripture declares that though seemingly free he is bound to sin and under a harsh taskmaster, namely Satan and his deeds he will do. So though free man is bound to his nature of the old man.

All of mankind from birth on is doomed and damned and this justly for mens' hearts only conceive evil constantly. The destiny of the majority of man is unfortunately hell because man is a monster unable to do any Spiritual good. So now how would one come to Christ apart from God working first? How can the heart that hates God suddenly on its own volition change when Scripture asks, "can a leopard chage its spots, or the Ethiopian his skin?"

2) Since we hopefully have seen that God's purposes will always come to pass, we must look at this wonderful verse.
"Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

There can be no doubt that all those whom God has predestined will come to faith. God will fulfill His great purpose in bringing many Brethren to Christ.

So now on to your ideas of all men having a chance to be saved. If this were true, would it not make God a liar? For He has said
"Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 [b]Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[/b]

Of course Ephesians echoes the phrase "pleasure"
"Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, [b]according to the good pleasure of his will,[/b]
"Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, [b]according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:[/b]
And then there is this
"Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [b]his good pleasure."[/b]

If indeed all men were to be saved, and one was lost God would be a liar, or He would have relinquished His Sovereignty to man's free will. Why preach the Gospel to any as they have sufficient light to believe on their own, why go to other countries with the glad tidings if man can bring himself to God at any time? Brethren be careful what corner you paint God into.

Lastly, the free-will men have asked for Scripture, we have given Scripture, as well as the logical, and Historical deductions and interpretations of them.
What was the result?
We have been called "occultic"? Please note who has resorted to unChristian behaviour and who has not and let that man's Theology be looked into more deeply.

I am honoured to be in a "cult" that contains a great cloud of witnesses and the whole counsel of Scripture, and which gives God alone glory!
Sola Gratia
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Solo Dei Gloria

andres wrote:
we are not talking about knowing there is a God , but about a man's salvation in Christ Jesus. please explain what 1 corth 2:14 means?

One does not need to know Who God is to come to repentance, but to know what God's law says.

Paul preached Jesus Christ, and him crucified.(1Co 2:2) Does man need the "gift of faith" to know that it is a fact that Christ was crucified and rose from the dead?
No, because it is evident; for this thing was not done in a corner(Act 26:26. see also Act 26:23).

Logic ,1. Do you believe that you could see yourself , by yourself , a sinful man?

2.Do you also believe that you , by yourself could see and choose Christ as your Lord and salvation?

Why couldn't one choose God to forgive him?

3.a. do you also believe that you could make God wait till you are ready to accept HIM.?

b.That if God wanted you to be saved , that God could not do anything in your unconverted heart untill you allowed Him to come into your unconverted Heart?

God's wisdom is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be easy To deal with, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.Jas 3:17

God would not force any one to come to Him. He knows that man needs to know that he not being sold a "bill of goods" so to speak.
In other words, God will wait for a man to intelligently understand what he is doing.
I wanted to make sure that I wasn't getting into something that wasn't real.
I sought the facts that are evident for all man to see, then I weighed the evidence and found that God is real, He did create the world and me, I knew that I was accountable to him.
All that does not need a "special kind of faith" to accept.

That which is evident does not need faith to believe. Why would one need faith for which is evident.
God wants man to make an intelligent decision based on fact, not a "snap decision" based on compulsion and emotion.

Salvation should be understood which is an intelligent concept.
[b]Matthew 13:23[/b] [color=990000]But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and [b]understands it[/b]; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

[b]Coming[/b] to salvation is not [b]yet[/b] about Who God is, but what He has said and done.
What Gos has said and done is evident in history.
It is also about coming to the truth of what we have done against His Law, which we have broken and is clearly evident that we do.

c. that your human unconverted will would be stonger then God's supreme, Holy, Just, righteous will?
d. do you believe that man can overthrow God, in any area?

Man is able to come to God by acknowledgment of the truth, however, some [b]will not.[/b]

roaringlamb wrote:

Now when you say that man by his own free will can thwart God's purpose, you erect an idol upon which you hang free will and deify man. For now your god is at the mercy of man's decision.

If it is all God and none of man, there is no relationship.
You never answered my question:
Did Adam thwart God's purpose by eating of that tree?
Furthermore, did God force Adam to repent?
If God did, why didn't He do the same for Cain?

roaringlamb wrote:
So of course allow me to state what I mean by man not having a free will. Man of course can and will make decisions in his everyday life, and thus it appears he has free will to do as he wills. But the Scripture declares that though seemingly free he is bound to sin and under a harsh taskmaster, namely Satan and his deeds he will do. So though free man is bound to his nature of the old man.

roaringlamb wrote:
All of mankind from birth on is doomed and damned and this justly for mens' hearts only conceive evil constantly. The destiny of the majority of man is unfortunately hell because man is a monster unable to do any Spiritual good.

roaringlamb wrote:
2) Since we hopefully have seen that God's purposes will always come to pass, we must look at this wonderful verse.

roaringlamb wrote:
We have been called "occultic"? Please note who has resorted to unChristian behaviour and who has not and let that man's Theology be looked into more deeply.

Furthermore, if you are honoured to be in a "cult"
You [b]TOTALY[/b] did not understand my post and you don't really read what I have to say, otherwise you would answer my questions and explain my error.

[b]Ephesians 1:4-5[/b] [color=990000]According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[b]5:[/b] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,[/color]

ALl this mean is that He selected us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love And this was predetermined before the world, we are not the main object here, but being "holy and without blemish before Him in love" is the main subject.
And whoever Comes to God has a predesignated position as a son.
It does not mean that God had a partiality for some to be in Him and some not to be in Him.

[b]Romans 8:29[/b] [color=990000]because whom He [b]foreknew[/b], He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
[b]:30[/b] But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.[/color]
We must not skip what this word "foreknew" means!

It means to know beforehand.
That is He knew that we would come to Him beforehand, therefore He predestind us to be conformed to the image of His Son.

This has Ephesians 1:4-5 to make more sense for God not being a god of partiality.

Is there any other explanation for the word "foreknawlage"?

I noticed that you did not put this verse in with your scripture quote. Why, was there a reason for that?

If it is all God and none of man, there is no relationship.

We are not talking about the after, but the way a man is saved. A man cannot "will" himself to be saved. Atonement was made for Adam thus the animal skins they now wore rather than the fig leaves, and also the promise of the Messiah was given to him.

How does sin stop man from acknowleging the truth?

Sin stops a man because he is dead spiritually which leads to death physically. Thus Adam was told, "in the day you eat the fruit of the tree you shall surely die." Obviously he did not drop dead on the spot, and the Hebrew phrase means "dying you shal die" referring to the spiritual to physical progression of death.

Men are not sick in their sins and tresspasses, but rather dead, and they need a ressurection which only God can do.

If we were unable(could not) to to good, we would be unaccountable because God wouldn't be so cruel to command one what he couldn't do. The truth is that Man will not, therefore it is in his power to do good.

Man cannot do the ultimate good, which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, strength. Man cannot come to God on his own supposed free-will as Christ said, "no man can come to me unless the Father draws him"

How is showing bad doctrin to be occultic "unChristian behaviour"

I beleive you should look back at the History of Chrsitian beliefs and see who has bad doctrine, and which one has consistently been declared as unbiblical at best, and heresy at worst.

So, God purposed Cain to kill Able. If God is Sovereign, in your definition, every thing that happens is His will.

Yes it is as He rules everything, and uses even the wicked deeds of the unregenerate to fulfil His purposes, Proverbs 16:4 [b]The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.[/b] However God is not the author of sin or evil, He uses wicked men the same as He would use redeemed men. One has a desire to do wickedness, the other godliness. Thus God remains perfectly just in not forcing His will upon men.

It means to know beforehand.

Yes, the Greek word is "proginosko" meaning to know before. However ginosko means an intimate knowing, or even one setting their love upon another. You could say "foreloved", which mathces up with the words of God when He says, "I have drawn you with cords of lovingkindness."

First tell me, are you actualy reading what I say, or skimming through it?

Don't I make any sence to you?

roaringlamb wrote:
A man cannot "will" himself to be saved.

roaringlamb wrote:

How does sin stop man from acknowledging the truth?

Sin stops a man because he is dead spiritually which leads to death physically.

roaringlamb wrote:

If we were unable(could not) to to good, we would be unaccountable because God wouldn't be so cruel to command one what he couldn't do. The truth is that Man will not, therefore it is in his power to do good.

Man cannot do the ultimate good, which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, strength.

roaringlamb wrote:
Man cannot come to God on his own supposed free-will as Christ said, "no man can come to me unless the Father draws him"

roaringlamb wrote:

So, God purposed Cain to kill Able.

Yes it is as He rules everything,

Please explain why GOD would pass by the one not to save and choose another to save?
Is that not partiality?

I came to know God after He by His Spirit regenerated my heart and gave me faith, until that time, I was an enemy of God, and God was an enemy of me.

He sovereignly orchestrated events, to the point that I received(as a new phone #) the old phone # for a Church. A gentleman called one evening, asked if it was the Church, and began to ask me what was wrong. He began to share Scripture with me, and as the Scriptures went out, the Spirit used them and He gave me a new heart to believe in Christ. I was not seeking God, He was the last person I really wanted anyhting to do with. I was an anarchist, and in bands that openly and frequently blashemed God.

My new birth was no work of my own, but solely of God.

Please explain why GOD would pass by the one not to save and choose another to save?

God does not owe salvation to any, you must see this to understand how God can and does pass over some. He is the Creator, not us. He may do as He wills, and I would thank Him for it seems good in His sight.

You make God the debtor owing grace to all, when in reality He is no man's debtor, and the mere fact that any are saved should cause us to celebrate the grace of God in Christ.

P.S. I was not referring to your post when speaking of the "occultic" comment, but rather ormly's.

If man was "Totaly Depraved" There would be no mathamatics, because man would reject logic.
There would be no leagal system, because man would reject justice.
There would be no history, because man would erase it.
There would be no civilisation, because Anarchy would rule.
You must not twist reality with your cultish view and decieve the Brethren.

By "Total Depravity" what is meant is total inability to do any Spiritual good, or the highest good which is choose God, and as Isaiah says, "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

It does not mean that man is as wicked as he could be, it simply means that every "good" work man does outside of Christ is unable to justify him, because man alone cannot come apart form a work of the Holy Spirit.

How you see man will affect your view on justification. I believe this is why we may go round and round ad nauseum and not agree as I see man dead in sin, and you see man as having a spark of ability within. Man's will is not neutral, and able to be swayed one way or the other on a whim, but rather man's will(natural) is hostile toward God and the things of God.

well put roaring lamb,
and thank you Logic for answering my questions.., I hope i did not offend you(Logic) or ormly, by my questions, and if i did i am truly sorry.I ask for your forgiveness..
i have learned much and have much to learn, thank you for your time all who responed in this thread.. May Christ be glorified in our lives,,
Love your brother
andy

A sermon by Paul Washer (best known for his "Shocking Youth Message" sermon) where he addresses all of these issues (in the context of Missions and fulfilling the Great Commission):
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=14823]Paul Washer - Particular Redemption and Missions[/url]

It's a bit more "chunky" than some of his other messages, but the undeniable passion he is known for is there nonetheless.

roaringlamb wrote:
He sovereignly orchestrated events, to the point that I received(as a new phone #) the old phone # for a Church. A gentleman called one evening, asked if it was the Church, and began to ask me what was wrong. He began to share Scripture with me, and as the Scriptures went out, the Spirit used them and He gave me a new heart to believe in Christ. I was not seeking God, He was the last person I really wanted anyhting to do with.

roaringlamb wrote:

Please explain why GOD would pass by the one not to save and choose another to save?

God does not owe salvation to any, you must see this to understand how God can and does pass over some. He is the Creator, not us. He may do as He wills, and I would thank Him for it seems good in His sight.

roaringlamb wrote:

By "Total Depravity" what is meant is total inability to do any Spiritual good, or the highest good which is choose God, and as Isaiah says, "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

It is not [b]Inability[/b] as in incapable, but rebelion as in capable and will not.

roaringlamb wrote:
It does not mean that man is as wicked as he could be, it simply means that every "good" work man does outside of Christ is unable to justify him, because man alone cannot come apart form a work of the Holy Spirit.

Chooseing the truth of a fact & the truth of God are the same thing.
Why could man choose the truth of God if he can choose the truth of anything else?

roaringlamb wrote:
How you see man will affect your view on justification....Man's will is not neutral, and able to be swayed one way or the other on a whim, but rather man's will(natural) is hostile toward God and the things of God.

If the things of God are true, why would man reject that truth and not any other truth?

Do not denie that you had an opption to reject His offer of salvation.

Actually, I did not because everything became crystal clear to a degree of course. Christ was revealed as the one I had to deal with, but also the one who would save me. i could do no other thing, because I saw Him as the pearl of great price and was willing to part with all to have Him. There was something, or should I say someone who almost would not let me deny Christ any longer, and to this day when I feel as if I cannot go on being a Christian there remains that Someone who fans the flames of devotion, and encourages me not to quuit, but to persevere.

I am not saying that He owes salvation but that He told us a story of the good Samaritan for us to be like him and you are saying that God is not like that good Samaritan.
Why would God tell us to do something that He does not do?

Yes but that was speaking of mercy, which is different than forgiveness. God has mercy upon the just and the unjust alike. He gives them life, and food, He makes His sun to shine upon both. This is because of His mercy, and yes we should be merciful to men as our Heavenly Father is merciful. But forgiveness is based upon repentance, and sorrow over the rebellion against the very God who has been so merciful. All men receive mercy here in this world, but not all receive forgiveness.

Would you punish one for not being able to do something, or refusing to do something?
It is not Inability as in incapable, but rebelion as in capable and will not.

Again, God punished many in the OT for not keeping His Laws. Their inability was not an excuse. This is the very point Paul is addressing in Romans 9 as the argument would come up, but that's not fair that God would choose one and not the other, to this he replies-
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Of course a potter does not sit down and consult the clay as to what he should make from it. Rather the potter sovereignly exercises his will over the clay making what he desires for his purpose. The same with God.

I agree, however, chooseing the truth is not a "good work"
Chooseing the truth of a fact & the truth of God are the same thing.
Why could man choose the truth of God if he can choose the truth of anything else?

But man supresses the truth, and fights against it. Look at John's words in the opening of John-
John 1:4 In him(Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And [b]the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.[/b]
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, [b]and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/b]
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Men are not naturally inclined to want light, worse yet they are blind spiritually and live in darkness. Unless God changes their heart they will not desire light.

Then John goes on-
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

Have you ever considered the words used to describe the Christian "birth"? Birth of course is one word as is creation. My question to you is what part does man play in his birth? What can man create apart from God, can he create a whole new heart, and being? Did you will yourself to be born to your parents, in the year you were born, in the city you were born into? Or rather was it sovereingly ordained to pass in such a way?

Man will not choose God's level of good because man is evil through and through.

Show me were mans will is hostile toward God and the things of God.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, [b]and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.[/b]

Romans 8:7 Because [b]the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[/b]

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

If the things of God are true, why would man reject that truth and not any other truth?

Because man wants himself to exalted and to make god in mans' image rather than the other way around. Unregenrate man knows that God exists, sees benefits of worship etc, but uses religion to hold up as a form of righteousness to be accepted by God, look at the Pharisees they are a perfect picture of knowing God's word, holding it to be true, but not wanting God's ways. Look at what Jesus says to them in John 10-
John 10:26 [b]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,[/b] as I said unto you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Did you notice what Jesus says, and how He says it? He does not say,"because you do not believe you are not my sheep" but rather, "ye believe not [b]because ye are not my sheep"[/b] Then He goes on to show that His sheep hear His voice. Does this not tie in with what Paul says in Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, [b]them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

Also, when Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17 look at a key phrase
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to [b]as many as thou hast given him.[/b]
John 17:6 [b]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:[/b] thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, [b]but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.[/b]
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, [b]keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,[/b] that they may be one, as we are.

There are a certain number(unknown to man, probably more than we know :-) ) who will be brought to Christ, but not all. Thus when Christ spoke of the Covenant at the last supper notice what is said
Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, [b]which is shed for many for the remission of sins.[/b]

Mark 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, [b]This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many [/b]

Thus fulfilling what was written in Isaiah 53-
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall [b]my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Christ has fully paid for the sins of His sheep, and they will be saved. The whole world are not His sheep, but praise God His sheep are scattered throughout every tribe, and tongue!!!

One last thing, if you bear with me :-D
Look at what Christ says in John 6-
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And [b]this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[/b]
Remember John 17

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Of course not everyone who visibly saw Christ was saved, so this "seeth" is of a Spiritual nature. But notice the promise, all those given to Christ by the father will be raised up at the last day!! Thus Jesus could cry from the cross, "it is finished" the price had been payed for His sheep.

Notice the reaction
John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

And then finally Christ's words to them
John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
John 6:44 [b]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. [b]Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[/b]

Thank you brother for your questions, and for the wonderful dialogue.
Blessings to you

roaringlamb wrote:

Do not denie that you had an opption to reject His offer of salvation.

Actually, I did not because everything became crystal clear to a degree of course.

Christ was revealed as the one I had to deal with, but also the one who would save me.

i could do no other thing, because I saw Him as the pearl of great price and was willing to part with all to have Him.

There was something, or should I say someone who almost would not let me deny Christ any longer,

roaringlamb wrote:

I am not saying that He owes salvation but that He told us a story of the good Samaritan for us to be like him and you are saying that God is not like that good Samaritan.

Yes but that was speaking of mercy, which is different than forgiveness.

roaringlamb wrote:
not all receive forgiveness.

roaringlamb wrote:
Again, God punished many in the OT for not keeping His Laws. Their inability was not an excuse. This is the very point Paul is addressing in Romans 9 as the argument would come up, but that's not fair that God would choose one and not the other, to this he replies-

roaringlamb wrote:

Why could man choose the truth of God if he can choose the truth of anything else?

But man supresses the truth, and fights against it. Look at John's words in the opening of John-

The Will is:
[b]1.[/b] the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions:
[b]2.[/b] the act or process of using or asserting one's choice;
[b]3.[/b] wish or desire.

I said:
Show me were mans will is hostile toward God and the things of God.

[b]Romans 8:7[/b] [color=990000]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[/color]
This is about the mindset of the flesh.

[b]John 8:43-44[/b] [color=990000]Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
[b]:44[/b] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.[/color]
How would this be about desire, asserting one's choice, or the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action?

[b]Romans 5:10[/b] [color=990000]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.[/color]

[b]Colossians 1:21[/b] [color=990000]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled[/color]
These are about being an enemy or hatred.
You still have note shown me me were mans [b]will[/b] is hostile toward God and the things of God.

roaringlamb wrote:

If the things of God are true, why would man reject that truth and not any other truth?

Because man wants himself to exalted and to make god in mans' image rather than the other way around. Unregenrate man knows that God exists, sees benefits of worship etc, but uses religion to hold up as a form of righteousness to be accepted by God, look at the Pharisees they are a perfect picture of knowing God's word, holding it to be true, but not wanting God's ways.

[b]2Thes 2:10[/b] [color=993300]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; [b]because they received not the love of the truth[/b], that they might be saved.[/color]

[b]Matthew 13:23[/b] [color=993300]But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it...[/color]

when one loves truth and understands what God says and what He has done, man will naturaly choose to let Him save.

I also ask you not to use Romans 8:30 without V:29, because that word "foreknew" explains the whole thing.
He foreknew that we would accept love of the truth, to be saved(2Thes 2:10).

When ever you see the "elect" "predestination"
Remember God's foreknowlege

[b]1 Peter 1:2[/b] [color=993300]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God...[/color]

I also ask you not to use Romans 8:30 without V:29, because that word "foreknew" explains the whole thing.
He foreknew that we would accept love of the truth, to be saved(2Thes 2:10).
When ever you see the "elect" "predestination"
Remember God's foreknowledge
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God...

Brother this only confirms what we have been getting at.
Foreknowledge shows that God knew those whom He predestined. Now of course God knows every single human as He has created them, but He has not predestined every man to be conformed to the image of Christ else all would be for God's purposes are not thwarted ever.

Consider some quotes on this
[i]Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago. The Arminian doctrine, in rejecting foreordination, rejects the theistic basis for foreknowledge. Common sense tells us that no event can be foreknown unless by some means, either physical or mental, it has been predetermined. Our choice as to what determines the certainty of future events narrows down to two alternatives—the foreordination of the wise and merciful heavenly Father, or the working of blind, physical fate.
-Loraine Boetner

No one with proper ideas of God supposes that He suddenly does something which He had not thought of before. Since His is an eternal purpose, what He does in time is what He purposed from eternity to do. Those whom He saves are those whom He purposed from eternity to save, and those whom He leaves to perish are those whom He purposed from eternity to leave. If it is just for God to do a certain thing in time, it is, by parity of argument, just for Him to resolve upon and decree it from eternity, for the principle of the action is the same in either case. And if we are justified in saying that from all eternity God has intended to display His mercy in pardoning a vast multitude of sinners why do some people object so strenuously when we say that from all eternity God has intended to display His justice in punishing other sinners?

As a matter of fact the Arminians do not escape any real difficulty here. For since they admit that God has foreknowledge of all things they must explain why He creates those who He foresees will lead sinful lives, reject the Gospel, die impenitent, and suffer eternally in hell. The Arminians really have a more difficult problem here than do the Calvinists; for the Calvinists maintain that the ones whom God thus creates, knowing that they will be lost, are the non-elect who voluntarily choose sin and in whose merited punishment God designs to manifest His justice, while the Arminians must say that God deliberately creates those who He foresees will be such poor, miserable creatures that without serving any good purpose they will bring destruction upon themselves and will spend eternity in hell in spite of the fact that God Himself earnestly wishes to bring them to heaven, and that God shall be forever grieved in seeing them where He wishes they were not. Does not this represent God as acting most foolishly in bringing upon Himself such dissatisfaction and upon some of His creatures such misery when He could at least have refrained from creating those who, He foresaw, would be lost?[/i]

To say that God elected us because of a foreseen faith is to say that man is elected because of some righteousness within Him. And again if this were the case, there are still those who are saved, and others who are not which then limits Christ's work on the cross an its effects to those who believe.

Also, if a man is chosen because of foreseen faith, he has something to boast of amongst those who have not been chosen. He has some condition by which God must choose him out of the rest. This does not follow the thought and effect of original sin at all.

Consider these quotes from The Council of Trent

Canon 4. If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.

Canon 5. If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing only in name, indeed a name without a reality, a fiction introduced into the Church by Satan, let him be anathema.

I post these simply to show you the ones who promoted arguments similar to the ones you are making. The Council of Trent was Roman Catholic, and was designed to undo the changes brought about in the Reformation. Consider the fact that after these two Canons came the following from the same group

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,117 which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
Canon 13. If anyone says that in order to obtain the remission of sins it is necessary for every man to believe with certainty and without any hesitation arising from his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him, let him be anathema.
Canon 15. If anyone says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined, let him be anathema.
Canon 29. If anyone says that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again, or that he can indeed recover again the lost justice but by faith alone without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and Universal Church, instructed by Christ the Lord and His Apostles, has hitherto professed, observed and taught, let him be anathema.

This is not company I would want to be joined with.

God's decrees are immutable are they not? or does the Scripture vainly say-
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [b]I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[/b]

How could God promise a Messiah thousands of years before He came if His decrees were not fixed in eternity yet worked out through time?

Good point, If God knows the begining and the end then why would he create a being if he knew he was not going to accept His Son? why bring a being into exsitence just so he could suffer?
Either God knows everthing
or God only Knows somethings which in case would not make him God..
I think we would all agree in these 2 sayings
1. If God created all people and just choose some to accept salvation, God would still be Righteous
2. If God created all men and knowing that most people would not choose his Son , God would still be Righteous..
i think we would agree with either one..

roaringlamb wrote:
For since Arminians admit that God has foreknowledge of all things they must explain why He creates those who He foresees will lead sinful lives, reject the Gospel, die impenitent, and suffer eternally in hell.

for the Calvinists maintain that the ones whom God thus creates, knowing that they will be lost, are the non-elect who voluntarily choose sin and in whose merited punishment God designs to manifest His justice

My view says that they choose to sin because they [b]will not[/b](able but not willing) to do anything else in favor with God.

while the Arminians must say that God deliberately creates those who He foresees will be such poor, miserable creatures that without serving any good purpose they will bring destruction upon themselves and will spend eternity in hell in spite of the fact that God Himself earnestly wishes to bring them to heaven, and that God shall be forever grieved in seeing them where He wishes they were not.

And since man didn't repent when chances were given, they would see their sin even worse in hell.
Calvinist don't even give those in hell a chance because they were not elected. Threfor, they would not see their sin as bad.

roaringlamb wrote:
Does not this represent God as acting most foolishly in bringing upon Himself such dissatisfaction and upon some of His creatures such misery when He could at least have refrained from creating those who, He foresaw, would be lost?

roaringlamb wrote:
Those whom He saves are those whom He purposed from eternity to save, and those whom He leaves to perish are those whom He purposed from eternity to leave.

there are still those who are saved, and others who are not which then limits Christ's work on the cross.

Christ's work on the cross is for all, you are limiting Christ's work on the cross for only the elect.

roaringlamb wrote:
if a man is chosen because of foreseen faith, he has something to boast

roaringlamb wrote:
He has some condition by which God must choose him out of the rest.

roaringlamb wrote:
To say that God elected us because of a foreseen faith is to say that man is elected because of some righteousness within Him.

roaringlamb wrote:
Consider these quotes from The Council of Trent

roaringlamb wrote:
How could God promise a Messiah thousands of years before He came if His decrees were not fixed in eternity yet worked out through time?

I say that He made decrees because He foreknew.

Matthew 16:15-18 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: Galatians 3:24-26 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Even Peter had to have it revealed to him by the Father who is in heaven. That revelation from God the Father is what Jesus would build His Church upon. "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

The soldier and the leper had the same revelation. It was from the Father of all truth and revelation.

The soldier had revelation from the Father which Jesus Says only can come from the Father. Then His Faith was revealed in the soldier and Jesus recognized it and made the comment, "I have not seen so great faith in Israel".

Galatians 3:24-26 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Having been revealed by the Father. "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

In Christ: Phillip

[size=medium]"If I [b]ought[/b], I [i]can[/i]."
- Pelagius

"Lord, give what [i]Thou[/i] commandest, and command what [i]Thou[/i] wilt."
- Augustine [/size]

Orm, Logic:

I remain unconvinced.

I am not a Calvinist. I am not an Arminianist. I may be considering Prevenient Grace.

I only know what I have experienced.

I did not seek God. I was not brought up in any faith or denomination.

God, for some purpose of His own, sought me out. He went to a great deal of trouble over many years to prepare me for a time when He would say, are you willing to come to me? He asked me that question for years. And one day, I weighed the pros and cons of the situation, and decided that Jesus was the better of two options offered me.

This thread was about the preparation of the soul for salvation, a deed done of God, by His choice, for His ends, and to His pleasure.

It is not can I or will I, but will God even have me, since God hardens the hearts of whomever He wills, and prepares the hearts of those He is seeking.

You have made your arguments in circles, about the nature of man in under the Old Covenents, as quoted wherever support for your view is found.

RoaringLamb, Christinyou, and others (apologies for my broken memory) have been talking about God's nature, and how, in His perfect will, God does whatever He wants to gain His ends, in the Old and New Covenents, which is His right as our Creator.

God has used the death of His Son to atone for all sin, yet blinded most from seeing Christ at all. This has nothing to do with man's ability, but God's choice.

After reading this entire thread in two sittings, I have revised a statement made prior to all the work everyone has put into this.

I do not know that man can seek God on his own, or do anything of pure motive by his own will. No scripture has been completely persuasive.

Yes, there have been many people who have walked with God, but the Bible doesn't always tell us who sought whom first. But God spoke to Adam, and to Cain. Enoch walked with God. Noah obeyed Him. Then Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And Joseph, Moses, the Judges, the Prophets, and some of the Kings.

It is not proven that man can seek God without God first seeking him in some way, even if it is but to place the wonder of the cosmos before man, and let man wonder and speculate.

It is proven, however, that whomever God seeks, He enables to answer yes or no. And being God, He already knows who will do what.

At this point, I even wonder if God even bothers to ask those that He knows will say no to Him and to Christ.

But I do know one thing, and only one thing. God sought me, not I Him. He touched my life over and over, gently, persuasively, and then with gradually more firmness until I seriously considered what was being offered, and after due consideration for the effect on my life this would have, chose to say yes.

In this thread I have been struck by the sense that neither side has heard the other, because you are not talking about the same thing.

Logic, Ormly - You speak of man's nature and abilities under God. Yes, you quote scriptures about God, but they are about how God allows man to derive being or salvation from Him or not.

The rest speak of God's nature, and how He deals with man, who He wants, and who He doesn't, and why He does what He does, and if He has to explain anything He does at all.

I do not care what this scripture says as opposed to what that scripture says.

The Bible in it's entirety says that God has gone to a great deal of trouble to save a comparatively few rotten men and women.

The Bible doesn't say, in it's entirety, how God has enabled man to save himself.

You can make the argument for man abilities forever.

I'm choosing God's abilities, His rights, and His eternal Godship.

But I maintain my right to say yes or no every day of the week, and every hour of the day. Because when it comes down to it, we all have to do that. I'd like to know how to say yes all the time, but I don't know how yet. But God is teaching me that as well.

God has made us able to be saved through Christ, and we say yes or no to God with every action we take.

Thank you for all the hard work. In the process, you made me change my mind. Because your oft repeated scriptures have made me see the whole of the Bible more clearly.

God made man, and I don't see that man can do anything of worth without God, or ever has, before or after the fall of Adam.

Blessings to all,

Forrest

Ormly wrote:

[b]Both are true statements.. Ever think of that??[/b]

What would be the point?
Check church history and the place of these two in it.

Who eventually won the debate?
Who was declared the heretic and was deservingly charged with [i]anathema[/i] once the councils did as the bereans did and "examined the scriptures to see if such things were true"?

The testimony of history is too harsh a judge...

Class dismissed.

Ormly wrote:
All had the Christ of Heaven in bodily form and you say righteous man needed more? This is not to say they all understood but only to say no special revelation was needed. What you fail to point out in Peter's case was own Peter's "full of love" disposition to Jesus that opened God's revelation to him more so than to the others. In this it is no different for us. We need the revelation of Jesus Christ that brings the cry from us, "Abba, Father" that salvation be made secure as a son. This is the new birth experience. Anything less, I would question. Anything less has no sustaining power.

Righteous man? What insanity is this?

[color=993300] 4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6. God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7. For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8. And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.[/color]

Is there anything you will not say to make a point, to win the argument, to beat everyone into exhaustion and disgust, just to get away from your inquisition like tactics?

There seems to be no fear of God before your eyes, either.

How many websites in your boredom have you assaulted this way? You are so willing to aim and shoot down anyone who doesn't agree with you, yet you ignore a lot of honest questions, dodging and weaving with a great deal of debating expertise.

You accuse, insult, label, and decry anyone who does not give in to you, and continue debates into arguments that cannot be proven. If you listen to anyone, it is only because you see a new scripture to use as a battering ram.

You know your Bible well, and beat us all over the head with it. You are beyond spiritual pride. I know that you suffer from this imperfection because I do myself. But you far surpass me, having a good deal of this argument already prepared and ready for warfare. Yet you speak of spamming scripture!

Philologos was right. You don't want a discussion. You want only complete submission to your viewpoint, and you will beat this site to death with your views until you get bored, and move on to the next set of targets on the web.

I pray that the members of SI will survive your advent upon it's pages.

And I will pray for the man called Ormly, that the abusive critical spirit that is oppressing you will leave you in peace.

In Christ,

Forrest Anderson

Forrest in your previous post, you made some wonderful points, and I wanted to thank you for your contribution.

I think we need to realize as well that what intrcsr, christinyou, andres, and I are aiming at is the means by which a man is justified i.e. by grace alone, and not that we earned or merited it in any way shape or form. It was a completely monergistic(God alone) working.

The others, logic and ormly are speaking and using Scriptures that would speak primarily about after regeneration, and justification. Now we move into a synergistic(working together) realm as the Scriptures say, "work out your own salvation." Of course we take this to mean justification which it is not, as salvation is a process-
I have been saved-justification
I am being saved-sanctification
I shall be saved-glorification

Yet in back of this all we must remember that it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do His good pleasure, and of course we can buck and kick against His workings, but eventually we will be changed by His grace to do the very things He has asked us.

Blessings to you.

amen.

Orm, you seriously crack me up. You throw out all of Church History, all of the men God has raised up to defend the faith(not that they are the standard, but more like one oar for the journey whle Scripture is the other. In order to go straight, both oars must be used or one will only go in circles), and say, "make way for ormlyian theology"

In the words of Paul, I lovingly beseech you
If any man thinks he stands let him take heed lest he fall.

P.S. I am not equating the words of man with Scripture, but if you come up with a view that is either new, or has already been declared heresy by those who have gone before, there's good reason to question what you believe.

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Orm, Logic:
I only know what I have experienced.

UniqueWebRev wrote:
I did not seek God.

UniqueWebRev wrote:
The rest speak of God's nature, and how He deals with man, who He wants, and who He doesn't, and why He does what He does, and if He has to explain anything He does at all.

They make it out to be some mystical force of grace that moves into ones heart when God uses reason to persuade peoples heart to him.

Some one asked me,"Do you have solid and absolute proof that God did not move your will or heart towards Himself?" I answered, "Yes by persuation of the truth"
That is How God works.

UniqueWebRev wrote:
It is proven, however, that whomever God seeks, He enables to answer yes or no.

By the time the creeds were written all mention of the kingdom of God had been dropped except for its mention in the Lords prayer. The reason for this, if you will check history that you believe I know litle of or am ignoring, will testify that the church set itself of as the kingdom. Think about it. In order now for one to get into the kingdom one had to be in church, rather than the other way around. The church set itself to hold the "Keys" to the Kingdom of God. Mother usurped Father's authority and began writing herself permission slips. Redemption was the only message propagated and excommunication was the "hammer" held over everyone's head who did not obey..

I'm not talking about Roman Catholic beliefs, or traditions. Have you ever read through the Heidelberg Catechism, Westminster Confession, the Synod of Dordt, or the Council of Orange? I believe you will find much exaltation of the Kingdom of God, as these were Protestant Councils and Documents rather than the Roman Councils who sought for Earthly power and glory in the name of Christ.

Ormly wrote:

Quote;

"All had the Christ of Heaven in bodily form and you say righteous man needed more? This is not to say they all understood but only to say no special revelation was needed. What you fail to point out in Peter's case was own Peter's "full of love" disposition to Jesus that opened God's revelation to him more so than to the others. In this it is no different for us. We need the revelation of Jesus Christ that brings the cry from us, "Abba, Father" that salvation be made secure as a son. This is the new birth experience. Anything less, I would question. Anything less has no sustaining"

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Isa 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, [He is] righteous? yea, [there is] none that sheweth, yea, [there is] none that declareth, yea, [there is] none that heareth your words.

1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

This says there is only one that is righteous, that is Him, and those that are born of Him.
"Ye must be born again", there is only one way to be born again and that is to receive, after His resurrection and Assention by His return in the believer's in, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 1 Peter 1:23-24 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

No one could be born again before Christ and the Cross, even the Master of Israel, Nicodemus, not even knowing what it meant. Colossians 1:25-26 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

No man could have this righteousness, unless it is in Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ are we made righteous, no other way is possible. Again: Romans 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

And again: Psalms 14:1-3 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

And again: Psalms 53:1-3 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The testimony of our and Israel's own Scriptures is, that they were and we are universally wicked, without the mystery of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

Matthew 9:12-13 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

None are whole and all need a physician, none are righteous and need righteousness made unto them, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

I have dealt with it, you are the one who needs the knowing when to hold them and when to fold them. Your deal.

In Christ: Phillip