I want to die

Today, my husband and I went to our church. Our youth pastor is engaged to a girl who lives 4 hours away. She was there today. I asked her where she stays when she comes to town and she said she stays with him. I was speechless.

My husband and I had just scheduled a meeting with our pastor to discuss the fact that he and his wife are the only ones handling the money and how we think that isn't right and we aren't comfortable with that, then I'm bowled over by the realization that something is terribly wrong with the youth pastor spending the night with his girlfriend.

When I told my husband, he just threw up his hands and said, "I'm done!" He doesn't want to deal with all this stuff. He's a new beleiver and he isn't up to all this confrontation.

I'm so disappointed in institutional church. I don't want to live. Dian.

I am praying for you, my dear sister
That is very hard to hear, but it is true.

"I'm so disappointed in institutional church. I don't want to live"

Don't give up. God will hear your cry's. I think that is what God wants of us, to hate sin. Praise God He has made your heart sick at sin in the Body. Even so much that your husband threw up. God wants us to seek, Him and live Holy lives. In matthew 5 it say if you have a promble with a brother go and talk with him, if he doesn't listen then tell an elder. But I think it is right you go to him frist, and tell how it dishonoring to God.

Pray for him, Don't give up. Maybe he will trun and confess his sin. SO pray for him. May God have mercy on him.

In his love
charlene

He's a new beleiver and he isn't up to all this confrontation.

Oh my soul ... praying

Praying that the Lord would strengthen you and your husbands resolve even now.

Dian,

When I say that I know where you are, please don't take that as I am just trying to make you feel better. I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!! I have left church so many mornings in AGONY! My husband is also very, very new in the Lord and he probably has said the same exact words your husband has. Please, ask the Holy Spirit to give you "ears" to hear what I would like to share with you. I pray that you are encoraged and see the Lord at work...yes even in this horrible situation!!

On 9/11/01 the Lord spoke to my heart and said "this is a wake up call to my bride." I relized how lukewarm and backslidden I had become and the grave danger I was in!! I cried out to the Lord and just was so repentant for my sin and the country!! I went to church the following Sunday and expected to find the entire church on their face, repenting and crying out to God. But when I got there, it was business as ususal. I think we sang "God Bless America" or something, but there was hardly even a mention of it. I would go to bible study or "Mom's group" and try to tell people what the Lord was speaking to me, but they seemed so annoyed that I wanted to talk up such things as repenting and drawing closer to the Lord. I once told a close friend that my desire was to draw closer to the Lord, she looked at me like I just told her I was from Mars!!! The closer I drew to Him, the less and less I felt part of the church. It finally came to the point, where I would come to church and in my heart I would cry out "where have you taken my Lord???"

I thought I had totally lost my mind and most people around me would have agreed! But that all changed the day that I opened David Wilkerson's news lettter. It was like finding pure gold!!! Everyting that the Lord was speaking to me in my prayer closet, was confirmed from this pastor over 200 miles away in New York City! I hardly knew anything about David Wilkerson or Times Square Church then, but I knew I was receiving the truth for the first time in a very long time!!

Since 9/11/01, I have been on the never ending journey to find a good church. I have heard every thing from "well if you find the perfect church, it will stop being perfect once you visit" and "pastors are human beings too, they all make mistakes and say the wrong things" but it's kind of ironic that those same people will tell you to obey those very same pastors because they are in authority over you! I am relistic, I know that there is no such thing as the perfect church, but I just want to be in a place where the truth from the WORD OF GOD is preach and where people are living in victory!! Why do we make so many excuses for the Church?!?! Do we not serve a LIVIING GOD who DIED TO SAVE US FROM THE POWER OF SIN AN DEATH AND BRING US INTO NEW LIFE?!?!?

My heart has broke a million times over!! I have felt like an out-cast, weirdo and trouble maker. But when I get alone with God I hear "Precious child, friend of God, robed in My righteousness"

The last time that I had a good crying fit over the condition of the church the Lord comforted my heart and showed me that HE was not sitting up in heaven wrining HIS hands over the condition of the Church, but HE sees it all and HE has a time already set WHEN IT WILL ALL COME TO AN END!!! With the slightest breath from heaven, He will bring the whole things down. He also said that He has given me eyes to see what it happening to pray and interceed because MANY will be crushed when it all comes down. We are not to gossip or criticize, but PRAY for eyes to be open!! Remember Jonah...He wanted judgment to fall, but did not desire that they repent. But the Lord is so merciful and loving that HE was compassionate toward them because they were like cattle. Isn't that a picture of the sick Church?? They are like cattle following hirlings to hell!! Pray and interceed and never lose the compassion of God for lost people!!

In HIM,

Tina

For some odd reason practice what your Preaching comes to mind.

I'm so disappointed in institutional church. I don't want to live.

I am reminded of something I wrote in the back of my Bible a while back...

Look at people too much, you'll be upset.
Look around too much, you'll be distracted.
Look within too much, you'll be discouraged.
Keep looking to Jesus, you'll be confident and peaceful.

Isaiah 26:3
Hebrews 12:1-2

In Christ,

Ron

Hold fast Dian. You and your husband's testimony of God's faithfulness is still being written. We are praying for you both.

MC

I'm so disappointed in institutional church. I don't want to live. Dian.

Be encouraged!! We are all here! Are you going to allow the actions of a few people to get you down? There is a remnant church that is out there on the front lines for God. I would encourage you to download and read this pdf file of some current events with the church in [url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/details.php?file=438]Smyrna. [/url] It is one of the most sobering documents I have ever read. Since I read this- I've been having some pretty good days. Been very thankful for my life.

God Bless,

-Robert

Are you going to allow the actions of a few people to get you down?

Amen. It is good that we diligently test all things but when the test results tempt us to dispair we also remember to hold fast that which is good.(Thessalonians 5:21). Having heard firsthand just some of your own remarkable testimony it is clear there are many awesome works of God to hold on to...even now they are still unfolding! Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men. (Psalm 107)

Maybe there is some appropriate encouragement in this quote from J.C. Ryle.

Let us see that we each lay hold upon Jesus Christ for ourselves by our own personal faith. Let us see to it that we each flee for refuge and lay hold upon the hope set before us in His glorious Gospel. Let us do this, and all shall be well with us, whatever else may go ill. Let us do this, and then all things are ours. The Church may fail. The State may go to ruin. The foundations of all establishments may be shaken. The enemies of truth may for a season prevail; but as for us, all shall be well. We shall have in this world peace, and in the world which is to come life everlasting, for we shall have Christ.

And let's also patiently pray that in God's grace these brothers/leaders become convicted of the way their conduct affects the congegation they are watching over.

Blessings sister,

MC

Dear Diane,

I am praying, how much that is worth I know not--but I am.

Upon providence I came upon this post, and by reason of studies I don't have leisure to spend days in editing it before I submit a reply (not as if that would make it the more profitable). Upon reading your experiences, my only thoughts are perservence.

Today, my husband and I went to our church. Our youth pastor is engaged to a girl who lives 4 hours away. She was there today. I asked her where she stays when she comes to town and she said she stays with him. I was speechless.

Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

I am all but sure you have just cause to presuppose the unthinkable, but don't. I could go on a loong rant about the worldliness of a recent youth pastor I met, but let this not hinder our judgment. Talk to the man and woman, get it straight from their lips that they sin--and then answer the matter.

My husband and I had just scheduled a meeting with our pastor to discuss the fact that he and his wife are the only ones handling the money and how we think that isn't right and we aren't comfortable with that,

I confess ignorance towards this situation, but I will say this: walk into this meeting praying and fasting, because money brings out the worst in Christians.

When I told my husband, he just threw up his hands and said, "I'm done!" He doesn't want to deal with all this stuff. He's a new beleiver and he isn't up to all this confrontation.

I understand your husband (seeing he is but a babe in Christ) stumbling at this, but I trust your maturity will not falter. Really Diane, if you drive with me across inner city Cleveland you will see 4 churches to a corner. Because we don't expect the sinful natures in our fellow Christians to manifest themselves towards us, we get hurt, and in bitterness erect a new building--only to repeat the cycle.

Please don't give up or run away from this Diane, Christ’s glory is at stake. The outward world watches o,n and their is victory even over these things in Christ. I trust he shall guide thy paths.

Encourage thy husbands heart
;-)

Thank you all for your words of encouragement and your prayers. Later in the afternoon, my husband called to me to come into where he was and told me he was sorry he had said he wanted to quit. He spoke with the pastor a bit later and clarified his position concerning financial accountability to our satisfaction.

As for the matter concerning the youth pastor, my husband asked me to hold my tongue, for now. He suggested that we pray on it for a while and then see where things stand. I am willing to do what he asks.

Seriously, thanks for praying and for caring. Love, Dian.

What's wrong with her staying with him while she's in town? Their engaged, after all!

I mean, seriously, I don't see a problem at all. Their adults, not teenagers. If they choose to sin they will be held accountable to God and He may bring it out in the open for them to repent in one way or another if He chooses to.

I mean, is she supposed to stay at a motel?... : )

Them handling the money shouldn't bother you unless they've done something to bring reproach to their testimony-- otherwise...? God's in control-- they'll only steal it with God's oversight (i.e., him allowing it), and if they do steal it-- God may very well bring it out in the open, if not: God is still in control. Just be kind and gentle-hearted to them in all things and let God work through you to them!

Jordan

Be encouraged!! We are all here! Are you going to allow the actions of a few people to get you down? There is a remnant church that is out there on the front lines for God. I would encourage you to download and read this pdf file of some current events with the church in [url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/details.php?file=438]Smyrna. [/url] It is one of the most sobering documents I have ever read. Since I read this- I've been having some pretty good days. Been very thankful for my life.

Dear Robert,

It is difficult to form words, I just pray this gets widely read and prayed for ...

Note: Click on the arrow to the right next to "Downloads"

That's great to hear Dian.

Jordan,

I appreciate the grace you have here bro, still the questions Dian and her husband asked were valid ones.

It was ill-advised for the young lady to bed over at her fiancee's house. He is in leadership afterall.

A few weeks ago I ran into a man who about 15 years ago had confronted me over the very same issue. One night, very tired from work I decided that there would be no harm in just couch-camping over at my future wife's apartment. (She also had a roommate so we weren't alone.) The next morning this older brother saw me as I was walking to my car and confronted me gently but with a clear eye. Years later, when I ran into him I fondly reminded him of his diligence towards me. He tried to shrugged it off but I told him I was thankful for his protecting the honor of my wife and because he was the only one at our church who ever cared enough to say something to me. I told him it was much better then kisses from a decietful flattering person. Dian's pastor will feel the same way...her concern should be his concern.

Regarding the money management, it seems that the matter is resolved. For the record, any time a single man has unilateral autocratic control over public or community assets, corruption is sure to follow without exception. Knowing this, no sensible man would want to be placed in such a dubious position. A sensible man would desire transparency. ...taking precaution so that no one will discredit us in our administration of this generous gift. 2 Cor. 8:20

It seems that Dian's pastor is a sensible man afterall.

Blessings,

MC

What's wrong with her staying with him while she's in town? Their engaged, after all!

I mean, seriously, I don't see a problem at all. Their adults, not teenagers. If they choose to sin they will be held accountable to God and He may bring it out in the open for them to repent in one way or another if He chooses to.

I mean, is she supposed to stay at a motel?... : )

you are right they are adults, not teens. This is a youth pastor, he is a example to the youth.
Although he is not a teen, if one of teens saw them they might think this is ok thing for them to do.

You are also right they are held accountable to God if they sin. But the question is do we think we can play around with temptation? Who to stay they will be strong to say no? Do we get as close to sinning, or do we try keep as far away from it? It might be a little prideful for someone to stay they are stronger then other people. It just a safe thing to do.

But the biggest thing I see is what it looks like. Even if they never did anything. People will think different. It looks wrong. and it dishonors God.

I mean, is she supposed to stay at a motel?...

well I would say yes, Christ name must be honored. she doesn’t have to stay motel, what about friend or family at the Church?

in his love
charlene

What's wrong with her staying with him while she's in town? Their engaged, after all!

Just because they are adults doesn't mean that they aren't tempted. I think a very important thing to consider is that the bible says to FLEE FROM TEMPTATION. Obviously, 2 people who are engaged are probably going to be tempted on some sort of level, ESPECIALLY IF they are are sleeping in the same house on a frequent basis. God is not going to give us the strength to disobey Him! He tells us flee from temptation, not try to be strong enough to resist it.

Overall, I think it is just WISE to avoid this situation. It's not really a matter of whether or not she'd have to get a hotel, the important thing is what does God think about it? Nothing else matters.

Jordan, here is what's wrong with that man permitting his fiance to sleep over at his house. She [i]did[/i] say to me that she slept on the couch, but that doesn't help anything as far as I'm concerned.

The scripture says that someone in leadership should be above reproach, meaning no one can find an area of indiscretion. Second, it says we, as believers, should avoid all appearances of evil. That means, it mustn't even [i]look[/i] like you're doing something wrong. Third, this young man sat across the table from me when he first arrived and told me that, before he came to Christ, his big area of sin was sex. The Bible says we should flee temptation, and make no provision for the flesh. This young man is being very unwise in his decision to do this. Fouthly, even if you just look at it from a worldly perspective, he isn't setting a good example for those whom he is supposed to be leading.

It is [i]wrong[/i] for this man to allow his fiance to sleep over at his house, period. He lives alone, and I, for one, don't believe for one second that he isn't sleeping with her. Maybe he [i]wishes[/i] he wasn't sleeping with her, but I'm not convinced.

Yes, he should either put her up somewhere else, or give her his apartment and go sleep on someone's floor for the night. Dian.

Spitfire wrote:
As for the matter concerning the youth pastor, my husband asked me to hold my tongue, for now. He suggested that we pray on it for a while and then see where things stand. I am willing to do what he asks.

Wise words your husband speaks....mmm (sounds like Yoda:-)).

Having just had my first open conversation with my ex-pastor on Sunday (we left the church due to some serious issues that affected our family, but not necessarily someone else's...long story). Even after four or so months, he was throwing back my words at me, which were badly chosen when I said it. I had referred to something that the church was doing as "toxic", meaning that it was potentially harmful, however he heard that I was saying that "he was toxic", as if I was saying that he had the "coo-tees" or something.

I had always said, of my ex-pastor, that it perplexed me how someone who "lived it so right", could "preach it so wrong". Our issues were not so much "theological" as "functional", but my badly chosen phrasing (the guy who invents the verbal equivalent to a "backspace key" will deserve a Nobel prize, for every category, especially "peace", in my opinion) painted the picture that I thought my old church was the "spawn of Satan".

There is something to be said of holding ones tongue until the right moment comes. And there is also something to be said for recognising when obeying Him means choosing an apparent "wrong choice". I seem to remember "someone" voting against their conscience in the last presidential election (I wonder who that was:roll:). Have you ever considered that confronting this issue, out of a "utilitarian motive", could result in this brother going "underground" with his compromise, while the kind of fallout that could come from being "totally exposed" could lead to his whole hearted repentance? It's easy to excuse away "questionable behaviour", when you haven't fallen flat on your face into blatant sin.

Sure there is a place for bringing a word of warning, but just make sure you aren't working against the purposes of God in doing so. I know that you personally are very particular about such things. Don't go changing on us now.;-)

Hi, Tina:

Firstly, I want to say I appreciate your response of encouragement to Dian to love and pray for the Church, as God does look to and fro for those who will stand in the gap and intercede. Prophetically-natured people can sometimes mishandle the revelations received as they discern things gone awry; it does us well to hope for the best, bear all things...and guard our own hearts.

Secondly, I was interested to see noted what you received spiritually at the time of the 9/11 event. David Wilkerson's newsletter with the account of another pastor who likewise had an alarm go off in his spirit calling for true national repentance was a definite confirmation for me, too! I relate to your experience: "Everything that the Lord was speaking to me in my prayer closet, was confirmed from this pastor over 200 miles away in New York City! I hardly knew anything about David Wilkerson or Times Square Church then, but I knew I was receiving the truth for the first time in a very long time!!"
(For me it was over 2000 miles away.) The Lord has since used Wilkerson's material periodically to confirm things again and again.

When I start to feel like "maybe I'm wrong; just really missing it... I don't want to be negative... how come I can't think and feel about things the same way others around me do, and ignore sin issues, or enjoy things without prayer burdens,..."'; then the Lord will send confirmation one way or another to let me know that others are hearing and bearing the same things in the Spirit.
May we who take to heart things so heavily, always find our peace and joy in communing with our Father in heaven. The precious, gracious love of Jesus is all we need to find rest for our soul. May we war in the Spirit, contending not with men, but the Enemy; and may we refresh near the fountain of life each and every day.

(May Dian and her husband take heart that God loves them and they love Him. We mustn't let the joy of our salvation be stolen by the sinful condition of men.

Dian, you may be a "watchman on the wall" advisor/counselor to the team. Just do your part before God; let not the "blood be on your hands" but be prayerful, and may the wisdom of God come to you in knowing what to say to whom and when, IF at all. Be encouraged, you're not alone in the vexing of your soul over the state of things. Just keep on keeping on, being the best representative of Christ you can be.)

With love and blessings,
Katherine

Spitfire,

I think you are in error to say that you know that this youth pastor and his fiance are sleeping together. 1 Cor 13 says that love hopes all things, and that we should therefore give people the benefit of the doubt. However, I agree the youth pastor should not have his fiance sleeping at his own home, for reasons of staying above reproach.

Hi Spitfire...

I will certainly be praying for you concerning your situation with your local church. You should certainly be both loving and transparent with your pastor. He might explain something that you were not totally aware of. On the other hand, he may not be aware of the concerns of members of the congregation. Regardless, I feel that it is never good to bottle up your concerns.

As for the youth pastor...

I would remind you to not "jump to conclusions." You might even talk with them and remind them about how dangerous such a situation can be -- or appear to be -- for young believers. The Word prompts us to avoid even the very appearance of evil. While the definition of idea of what constitutes "evil" will vary from individual to individual (or even doctrinal belief to doctrinal belief), the idea of a young pastor sleeping in the same house alone with his girlfriend can appear unwise.

I wonder why no one else offered the young lady a place to stay?

:-)

Dear Dian,

Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

God values obedience more than sacrifice. In the Kingdom of God, Christ establishes a certain order of authority. As disciples of Christ, we are to heed the authority Christ places over us.

In this verse, Christ told His people plainly to obey those in authority above them. They sit in the seat of Moses, in the seat of authority. As such, they must be obeyed. Christ said this, even though He knew the Pharisees were blind guides. They were sinful. We should also heed these words.

As followers of Christ, we should seek to submit just as Christ submitted unto the authorities of His day. Indeed, we should not sin. However, if someone above us is sinning or is in error, that is not our concern. God is the judge of His leaders. Those above you will answer to God for their actions. You also will answer to God. When you answer to God for your actions, He will ask about your obedience. Did you submit, or did you stir contention among your family?

Do not worry about the sin of your leaders. Worry about the log in your own eye first. Are you following Christ? That is all that matters.

It is wrong for this man to allow his fiance to sleep over at his house, period. He lives alone, and I, for one, don't believe for one second that he isn't sleeping with her.

Whether it is wrong or not, it is not in your hands. This must be surrendered to Christ. Our aim is to encourage one another in faith, not judge one another's actions.

Consider this scripture:

Romans 14:1-12 (NIV)
1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

In love and in Christ,

Blake

I haven't had time to read through the other posts, so if I repeat what someone else has posted Let me say sorry. I think that you and your husband have a very good oppurtunity here and how you two and especially you handle this situation will forever define the both of you and to what extent you'll be of use to Jesus and eternal things. You really have two choices, either cut and run or learn to seek Jesus and become more Christlike. The choice is yours.
If I was to advise it would go something like this, You two (hear my wording very carefully), you two can become one here if you'll get the emotion out of the thing and start spending time in prayer and learning the principles of God, be careful not to enter into judgement and thereby sin. Learn the patience of a farmer who sows prayer and actions of love and the Encouraging Word of God. I feel a sense of frustration as I'm writting this so you have probably made up your mind on the matter, but know this that your actions and influence, Sis, will either destroy your husbands faith or build his faith up and draw him closer to the Lord.Joh 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

You wanted to be used by God and when the opportunity comes you run from it. So you need to make up your mind and decide if you'll follow Jesus with the cross or not. Complaining won't help, it's really an issue of the heart here.
When things keep coming up like this it's easy to say it's the devil, it's someone elses sin, etc.... but really the truth of the matter is it's probably God answering our prayers in a way we didn't expect Him to. We pray use me Lord for your glory, than we miss the opportunity because we don't properly discern the moment. I'm talikin to myself here! So what have you been praying for? I think if the two of you become one, and spend the proper time in prayer together and God's Word, no matter what happens, you'll have a foundation to not only handle the situations life throws at you but also make an eternal difference.

I've noticed that whenever we discuss bringing a concern to a pastor or elder, we seem to polarize along two extremes; either the leadership is dastardly Pharisees, or they are spiritual olympians untouchable in their realm of authority. (No wonder pastors seem to feel so isolated from the rest of us.) I think they are also brothers. What's the big deal about advising this young youth pastor to use more discretion? (And yes...to offer him a place to sleep if needed!) And why can't we ask our pastors, respectfully, about how the finances are handled?

Though I certainly agree with Darly's comments, which seem to sum up everyon'es concern, to not fall into sin over this situation. In fact, making a big deal over this is exactly the wrong reaction...speak your piece respectfully, privately, affirmingly, and then move on without a grudge. I see no need for angonizing over whether or not to approach these men over the topics or moral conduct and money...but certainly we should be loving in how we approach them. "Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers...

This thread makes me a wee bit paranoid. Is someone holding back some wise counsel from me because they thing I'm too prideful or insecure to hear it? We should think our leaders are bigger men then to be so fragile as to crumble because we bring up a concern about something we see in their conduct.

Perhaps the issue here is the motive of the heart of the person bringing the concern. I'm thinking of Genesis 9.20-27, the account of Noah's drunkenness and exposure. (I'm not comparing sins here...only a principle.) We do not run and tell the other brothers about our fathers exposure...but we also don't ignore the situation and let the exposure continue and then murmur about it as well. Instead we approach humbly and help cover up the exposure...in this case by a private, humble and supportive conversation.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think this is a rather routine situation and no cause whatsoever for alarm. To treat this as if the leadership is a brood of hypocrites is terribly wrong, but to treat this as some kind of unstable nuclear reactor also seems uncalled for. We are talking about decent sincere men who are our brothers as well. Just honor the irreplaceable relationship that you have with them and watch their back.

And whatever you do, don't gossip about these men in the church. This is a too common besetting sin among frustrated church members...a much, much greater harm then the original indescretions. A gossip betrays confidence...Such a self-serving response would almost certainly hurt your pastor deeply, and erode precious trust he has in not only you but the whole congregation. A pastor's honor, his public trust, is a vital tool of his calling, and if you steal that you are guilty of a terrible offense in God's eyes (A false witness will not go unpunished...) with ramifications that effect the whole body. In short, gossip can cripple a pastor's or elder's ministry, and this is an awful and eternal loss, since they were appointed to ably serve and oversee their congregation.

Blessings,

MC

That knowledge places a responsibility on the however lowly and insignificant believer.

I am sorry my dear sister, but it does not. The Lord sent Nathan to confront David. The only responsibility a believer has is to the Lord. We should not take responsibility into our own hands. If the Lord tells us to confront the authorities, then we should. However, this should come after much prayer. The Lord values obedience above all. We should seek to submit, not rebel. Rebellion is the nature of sin, not of God.

In addition, Nathan was a prophet who spoke on behalf of the Lord. David was also a prophet while being King. In the situation of Dian, the pastor and elders should be the one to confront the youth pastor. Whatever the leaders decide, so they should respect.

It is ironic you should mention David. He also knew of the importance of submission. When David was under the Kingship of Saul, David submitted. He obeyed, even when Saul had fallen away from the Lord. David was given three opportunities to kill Saul, but David would not. David knew that he did not have the authority to do so. Even when David became King, he had the Amalekite struck down for killing God's anointed. (2 Samuel 1:11-16)

God values obedience. Christ never disobeyed any authority. He even paid His taxes.

In love,
Blake

Jordan, here is what's wrong with that man permitting his fiance to sleep over at his house. She did say to me that she slept on the couch, but that doesn't help anything as far as I'm concerned.

The scripture says that someone in leadership should be above reproach, meaning no one can find an area of indiscretion. Second, it says we, as believers, should avoid all appearances of evil. That means, it mustn't even look like you're doing something wrong. Third, this young man sat across the table from me when he first arrived and told me that, before he came to Christ, his big area of sin was sex. The Bible says we should flee temptation, and make no provision for the flesh. This young man is being very unwise in his decision to do this. Fouthly, even if you just look at it from a worldly perspective, he isn't setting a good example for those whom he is supposed to be leading.

It is wrong for this man to allow his fiance to sleep over at his house, period. He lives alone, and I, for one, don't believe for one second that he isn't sleeping with her. Maybe he wishes he wasn't sleeping with her, but I'm not convinced.

Yes, he should either put her up somewhere else, or give her his apartment and go sleep on someone's floor for the night. Dian.

wouldn't it be great if all the bible were true?
like Matt 6:25
or Luke 11:9-13
or John 17:23 - read this one over and over :)
or John 7:24
I can see you're troubled - 'I want to die' as the title of the thread.
but just because the world around you may be in a mess, salvation, which you have, can't be that bad. We're spending eternity with Jesus!!
think of it this way, if the temporary world around you can make you compromise eternity (I don't know if suicides go to heaven) then something is not quite right. We need to stand upon the rock - Christ. Christ, the rock doesn't move. Our life on earth is not to be content with it and what happens in it.
matthew 19:16-30
matthew 28:18-20
see the tone of what is said?
how can we let our faith be blown about so easily? God knows what he is doing, he knows how to glorify his son and he doesn't need anyone's help doing it. that wouldn't be any fun though, he actually doesn't want to leave us out of anything, that's why we have church, that's why the bible says things like what i quoted above and others like matthew 10:6-8

moving on, as controversial as it sounds, sleeping together doesn't kill anyone, as bad as it may be. it is sounding like a fairly heavy life or death issue to you.

I have a best friend who is a deacon in my church who was in a similar situation, his south african girl friend was staying at his house a few time for about a month at a time - probably 3 times. sure i wasn't spying on them 24/7 but I know my friend very well, he's been a major pillar in my walk with Christ. He's flown out today to south africa to marry her in september. both of them are totally sold out to Christ and would not compromise their purity.

now even if you're youth pastor has 'sinned', chances are he has asked for forgiveness. forgiving is forgetting, why remember something God choses not to?
If he is sinning, he doesn't need anyone to be pointing out how wrong it is because he knows it. and it's between him and God and his fiancee.

Now it does say that if your brother sins, talk to him and if that doesn't work take it up with the church etc (corinthinans). You don't know for certain if he's sinning or not.

forgive the crudeness, but if he had raped someone would you take your life? Our rock is Jesus and not the church. remember eternity with Jesus. Everyone who has been to heaven and come back has not wanted to come back if you know what i mean. Eternity with Jesus (aka heaven) can't be all that bad, it's our inheritance. so let's not be troubled by these short times that we get to prove our faith in Jesus. There won't be any faith in heaven after all.

God values obedience.

Blake brother,

I completely agree with the principle of obedience you are bringing up. However, I'm not sure we are all talking about the same issue here. Is Spitfire disobeying on some level? I do not see how...though we might caution her to measure her response and to seek wisdom on how to voice her questions. (Which I believe was part of her reason for expressing her frustration in this thread.)

In matters of scripture we can all readily agree that the pastors, teachers, and prophets are called proclaim the Word of God without fear of man's opinion. In this area, and related areas, there is no 'dialogue' or 'conversation" as modern man understands these things.

Yet this unilateral authority does not extend into every area of Church business. A pastor may not decide one day to himself that he is going to spend the church treasury on a new building and not expect a lack of public trust or a controversy. I think this is a common misunderstanding in the church today. Remember that even the apostles asked their congregation to appoint men of respect to adminster the general funds...they did this in order to be free to do their divine calling more faithfully.

These apostles arrived at this most practical solution after recieving complaints from the people. They did not rebuke those who were complaining but recognized the validity of their concerns. This is what seperates Christ's church from a leadership cult built around a single personality.

So I think that questioning conduct (respectfully and privately) is not at all the same as being in rebellion to authority.

Blessings,

MC

While the possibility of sexual sin is a justifiable concern, there are other issues at stake. When a leader thoughtlessly puts his own reputation in jeopardy, he destroys trust within the congregation. He builds walls. According to scripture, our choices must reflect an awareness of others. We are not to do that which may weaken the body. It isn’t even a case of whether our choice is “permissible” or not. (See Rom. 14) We are interrelated and our choices DO affect others.

"Love always protects" - including the honor of a wife-to-be.

Onlookers also have a responsibility in how they respond to such situations, as has been pointed out. If there really is sin and cover-up, then in time it will come to the surface - in some way or other. A hardened heart is not magically cured on the wedding night.

my husband asked me to hold my tongue, for now. He suggested that we pray on it for a while and then see where things stand.

I believe that the following two scriptures cannot be used to indict this pastor:

I think you may be referring to 2 Timothy 2:22 - 'Flee from youthful lusts.' ? Interesting to note the contrast of that verse from 1 Corinthians 10:13, which says that God provides a way out so that you can 'stand up' under temptation. But we are told to flee from youthful lusts.

2 Tim. 2:22 is often used for fighting off sexual temptations. But here Paul is writing to Timothy who is facing the problem of false teachers within the leadership of the church at Ephesus. The previous verses (2:14-19) make it clear that Timothy must resist false teachers and cleanse himself from the ignoble (gangrenous teachings, godless chatter, etc) “so that he can be made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.” (See 1 Tim. 2 ) There is no mention of sexual sin.

it says we, as believers, should avoid all appearances of evil.
I believe that this is archaic KJV wording. Note other renderings,
“Avoid every form of evil.’ NASV
“Avoid every kind of evil” NIV
“Abstain from every kind of evil” NKJV
In other words, this verse does not say: ‘Avoid what might look like evil but is not necessarily’ (Remember, that’s why we weren’t supposed to go to ANY movies. Impression was everything)

Dian, I remember once when God revealed a pastor’s sin to me in a dream. But he did not want me to say anything about it. I remember wishing that God had not done that, however, soon realized that God was really pointing his finger at ME. He wanted ME to surrender my false ideals about church, and also ungodly dependencies on religious leaders. God wanted me to accept the fact that people can fall - even wonderful spiritual leaders, and that can even be part of his divine plan. (God humbles the proud)

Tina, God pointed this out to me too:

he last time that I had a good crying fit over the condition of the church the Lord comforted my heart and showed me that HE was not sitting up in heaven wrining HIS hands over the condition of the Church,but HE sees it all and HE has a time already set WHEN IT WILL ALL COME TO AN END!!!

Ron, I keep on needing to hear these words:

Look at people too much, you'll be upset.
Look around too much, you'll be distracted.
Look within too much, you'll be discouraged.
Keep looking to Jesus, you'll be confident and peaceful.

Robert, I think Jeremiah received this same challenge from God when he got overwhelmed: (see Jer. 12:5)

Are you going to allow the actions of a few people to get you down?

Many thanks to all who posted here. This thread is a blessing – to see so many who care.
Diane

Dian,

I did not read the entire thread, so pardon me if what I am saying is redundant.....

As a person who has worked at a CPC for many years, I will have to tell you this type of behavior is not unusual at all...and yes they do sin. Actually, it is not the sleeping where the sin occurs but what happens before and after.

This will not help you, I am sure. But what we have seen is there is a lot of lip service given to moral purity, but where the rubber meets the road, very few will want to make an effort to take a stand against it and make it their lifestyle. Too many church leaders have thrown up their hands and are allowing this lifestyle permeate their brotherhood. It used to be a shame to engage in sexual sin, now it only evokes a sigh...(Actually, I used to have a great respect for ministers of all kinds of evangelical churches, but after serving at CPC for many years, this respect has been destroyed...but ones' salvation is NOT dependant on another's behavior. Do not forget that.)

Perhaps, your DH is looking to the wrong place for his security? You will need to make this a matter of prayer to see what the LORD would have you do. And do not act out of your anger, frustration because if you do you will become church hoppers and eventually disassociate yourself from any brotherhood because the humanness of people can cause irritations in others. You need a brotherhood to help you grow and refine your character, as well.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Hi roadsign, having read and re-read the verse from 2 Timothy 2:22, I don't really understand what you mean when you say it isn't about temptation. Not that I think I'm right in what I think or you're wrong or whatever, but it seems to me to be referring to youthful lusts as we would understand them, the greek being 'neoterikos epithumia' I think this does literally mean, as in fleeing from the young evil desires (lust included).

Please help me! Woulnd't be surprised if I'm wrong, I know nothing! But praise God that He can even teach someone like me. If you could explain your point a bit more I would appreciate it!

Thank you, Richard for checking up on me. I certainly could be wrong. I merely wish to read into the scriptures what it actually refers to.

when you say it isn't about temptation.

There are other references about “fleeing”: Paul told the Corinthian believers to “Flee from sexual immorality” .. 1 Cor. 6:18 and “flee from idolatry…” because these temptations were very real for the Corinthians. These were commonly accepted practises in the culture, highly valued and sacred.

But Timothy was not like the immature Corinthian believers. Other temptations concerned him, as a young evangelist. In 1 Tim. 6:11 we read “But you, man of God, flee from all this…” Looking back , we see that “all this” is about the temptation to get rich, which was leading people to go after all kinds of “ harmful desires that plunge men into ruin” (Do you ever wonder why there is little preaching on THIS temptation?)

About Paul’s exhortation to Timothy “ flee the evil desires of youth” you said, …

it seems to me to be referring to youthful lusts as we would understand them

Anyway, a different temptation concerned Timothy:
In Paul’s day traveling philosophers would go into lecture halls and spout the latest philosophy of the day – essentially, false teachings. We see Paul addressing this in 2 Tim. The people loved debating… godless chatter, teachings that spread like gangrene, … those things that made one “ignoble vessels”, unholy. This is the setting where we read “flee youthful desires”...

Paul continued: "Have nothing to do with foolish and stupid arguments because you know they produce quarrels and the Lord's servant must not quarrel. ...
Those who oppose him he (the Lord's servant) must GENTLY instruct...."
2 Tim. 2:23-25

That meaning would apply today, wouldn't it?

Diane

Actually, it is not the sleeping where the sin occurs but what happens before and after.

Ginnyrose, this made me laugh out loud. Thanks, I needed that.

And do not act out of your anger, frustration because if you do you will become church hoppers and eventually disassociate yourself from any brotherhood because the humanness of people can cause irritations in others.

Been nair. Done nat. Got the T-shirt. Burned it. Excellent advice. Thank you. Dian.

so that's it huh? You're gonna give up?
Almighty God who loves you with all his heart, same God who created the universe can't help you?
throwing a pitty part isn't going to help.
what did paul and silas do when they were thrown in prison? they sang praises. because no matter what is happrning around you, GOD IS STILL GOOD!

please go ask the youth pastor if he did something wrong, if he says yes, rejoice with him in his repentance. after all if we never sinned, CHRIST DIED FOR NOTHING!. if he says no then he's either telling the truth or lieing. if he's telling the truth, rejoice in his victory! if he's not, it's up to him and God to sort it out, and not for you to point out. remember though sins like this are forgiven.
we are all running our race here on earth and we don't allways follow the right path, but because we believe in CHRIST the HOPE OF GLORY we all end up at the right destination.

a side note here; let's live for the next life, like Jesus said. "whoever shall try to keep their life will lose it, and whoever looses their life for my sake shall find it"

I hope this helps you. i'm not trying to condemn you. you're bro in Christ. -stan

so that's it huh? You're gonna give up?

Nah. I ain't giving up. I will speak to the youth pastor when the time is right. Meanwhile, I've been praying that God will grant me the grace to speak to him in love and from the mind of Christ. I like your style, Stan. :-D Love, Dian.

I believe it's what the Lord has laid on my heart.

well, first of all who expects us to abstain from fornication? people or God? God expects us all, because everyone he created is everyone he has created (as weird as that sounds) and he loves his creation and he wants the best for us.
More than anything else Christ desires us to believe in him, love him, and let him live in us so that his kingdom may be advanced through us.

in the eyes if the law, If we break one rule, we're guilty of breaking all. if i'm comitting fornicantion, and you're not, than you're no better than me because we always stumble. we conciously do our best as Christians because we love Jesus but we will stumble.

James 10:8
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[b] also said, "Do not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

hebrews 10:8
8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Through the blood of Jesus we are God's righteousness through Christ. and that's grace.

ok, if we're talking about God expecting us to abstain from fornication, then the simple answer is 'because he said not to do it'. Because we are 'in Christ', we desire to do what he said.

I believe it's important not to push condemnation onto people who are 'in Christ' - romans 8

Dorcas wrote:

Why are Christians expected to abstain from fornication?

Whether we understand the reasons for God's commands does not cancel our obligation to obey them. Too many moderns wrangle a lot about the meanings of God's word and never get off their seats and obey. Actually, this is where faith comes in. Read Heb. 11. The OT (or NT) saints did not ask God for a detailed explanation for his commands: they just did it. One does not have to understand.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Why are Christians expected to abstain from fornication?

Here is a very good question! I fear that if we cannot answer it, then we cannot help those who either don’t care, or who are plagued with guilt over their besetting sins. In fact, we can’t help even ourselves overcome sins. “Just because…” is not a strong enough motivator for the conscience. Satan can easily tempt through such suggestions as: “Hath God really said…?” The power of reason can easily distort God’s word if someone is not rooted in truth and understanding.

and apply thine heart to understanding;

I am learning from Ephesians that each believer must be deeply grounded in the fundamental truth of who he/she is in Christ. Otherwise tempting influences will overrule their weak consciences. I think that all of us who are trying to lose ten pounds understand this.

I see the answer to Dorcas’ question in Paul's letter to the Ephesians. He first presented a description of who they were in Christ. (Why not mediate on the first two chapters for several days! It is awesome! It’s the answer! Try different translations!) The rest of the epistle, that is, the practical outworking hinges on these truths.

Paul prayed that the believers would KNOW this reality. In Ch. 3 he prays that they would be deeply rooted in God’s love – ie KNOW God’s love. Never once does he pray concerning their behavior. I believe that is because right behavior flows from right knowledge – that is, knowing (deeply) one’s identity in Christ. That includes knowing who he is NOT (anymore) - among those who are “SEPARATED from God”.

When one is deeply aware of his identity in Christ and a member of the Body (One New Person) then his one and only desire is to preserve that unity, and not cause harm or threat to it by making selfish or foolish choices.

“Instead, speaking the truth (about Christ and our relationship with him) in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament (including the various leadership roles), grows and builds itself up in love, as EACH PART DOES ITS WORK.” Eph. 4:14,15

How might we help fellow believers KNOW more deeply who they are in Christ?

Diane

Another question that has popped into my mind:

How might Dian encourage this young pastor and his girlfriend and help strengthen their faith - stirring them to become more and more Christ-centered?

(Is that not what all of us are called to do for each other?)

Diane

"The Practice of the Presence of God "

It's always good to learn the lessons of the farmer who knows how to plant for a future character in the body of Christ.