Andrew Wommack

Hi folks,
Do any of you guys know of Andrew Wommmack?
If so what do you think?

Hi Simon. I know of Andrew Wommack. I have dozens of his messages on video. What do I think? Well, he is someone who would be classified as a health & wealth or prosperity gospel kind of guy. But...let me say that I've never seen anyone who believes what he's saying as much as Andrew Wommack and he definitely has made me think long and hard about who I am in Christ.

I often meditate on that scripture which says, "if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you could say to this mountain 'move', and it would be cast into the sea. Nothing would be impossible to you." I tell you, that line, "nothing would be impossible to you", really gets me. I feel so defeated most of the time, but there have been a few times that I just got mad at the devil and unloaded on him and, man! Did I ever see some mountains move!

I don't think we've even scratched the surface of believing. I think alot about this planet called Earth that we live on and how God created it for us. Have you ever thought that there is never any more wealth available to anyone than there was at the beginning of time? It just changes hands down through the ages. God provided us with every good thing we could possibly need for life and godliness and he is never at a loss for resources. He knows where every hidden treasure lies. Just think, Peter got a coin out of a fish's mouth! 2+2 does not equal 4 with God. And Jesus never asked the question, "do we have enough money for that!?" He walked through this earth, as Art Katz would say, "like water off a duck's back." I love to think about that. I want to be like Him. Love, Dian.

I didn't know the name so I looked up his website. I am not impressed. I read his article on 'Faith for Healing is based on knowledge' and disagree with him on most of it. It includes sections entitled... God has already placed His healing power within us, and it is now under our authority. It isn’t up to God to determine who receives healing; it’s up to us!

It's never God's will for us to be sick; He wants every person healed every time.

These verses reveal that physical healing is a part of the atonement of Christ.
I think people who propogate this kind of stuff are dangerous and I steer clear of them.

Yeah, I agree with philologos. I used to go to the church he attends and have actually listened to some of his radio programs and thought they were good. He does have some good messages. I got word of him being a health and wealth guy when I was looking into possibly going to the bible college he heads up, and that turned me off right away. He does have some questionable theology and thoughts on Scripture.

AAAAAHHHHH!!!!

If so what do you think?

I try not to think about that. ;-)

Man, I'm sure the guy loves God, but a lot of people are falling for this health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. This is definitely dangerous stuff.

Spitfire wrote:
I often meditate on that scripture which says, "if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you could say to this mountain 'move', and it would be cast into the sea. Nothing would be impossible to you."

Mike

Just remind me, how many mountains was it that Jesus cast into the sea?

I can't believe you asked this question! Are you kidding? His whole ministry was moving mountains, man! Would you not consider death a mountain? This guy conquered death, hell, and the grave! You can't be serious! What do you mean by such a question? I really want to know what you mean by that. Thanks, Dian.

Just remind me, how many mountains was it that Jesus cast into the sea?

This right here! This is the very thing which makes me despair of life, folks! This guys attitude.

There is such a mixture of dung, (watching my tongue for the sake of Enid), in the church that I can hardly take it.

I'm beginning to wonder if there is anyone we can trust. I've begun to ask the Lord if there is anyone who knows him that lives near me, cause I want to meet them.

Everywhere I go I find a little bit of truth and a whole lot of dung. It makes me despair! It makes me groan like an animal.

I'm quite certain I don't know God, but I'd like to. I know when I hear something that is [i]not[/i] from God and it's making me ill. Thanks, Dian.

Matt. 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into [u]an high mountain[/u] apart,

Matt. 17:9 And as they came down from [u]the mountain[/u], Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matt. 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto [u]this mountain[/u], Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. ...was not a metaphorical mountain.
This was not a metaphorical mountain. The most likely candidate is [url=http://www.gemsinisrael.com/e_article000096511.htm]Tabor.[/url]

Hi Ron. What is your point about Jesus talking about a literal mountain? Were you meaning that he wasn't trying to relate the mountain to other, seemingly impossible, situations?

I see his reference to the mountain in this verse as being the best example he could find of an age old reality that seems impossible to change. Mountains are age old realities and as far as I know, no one has ever spoken to a literal mountain and moved it. I've always believed that Jesus was making a point that, with faith in God, there's nothing that's impossible, and he was trying to get his disciples to think outside the box, to think with their faith rather than their reasoning. Dian.

For more than 20 years that I have been a Christian, I have received the most spiritual growth from gifted Bible teachers. Andrew Wommack is one of them. He is not the only one I have received from, but certainly one of the best in my opinion. For a reference point I can list some of the others that are on the top of my list: C.J. Mahaney; Joe Focht; Mylon LeFevre; Steve Fry; Bob Yandian; Bob Sorge. You are welcome to look these names up on a search engine to find out more about them. And, it is by no means a complete list of those who have provided solid growth in my life. But since the topic here is Andrew Wommack, I'll explain.

Without counting, I probably have 300 of his teaching tapes, and I have found him to be a well balanced teacher. I understand that some of the comments posted on this thread state that he is a health/wealth preacher. I have seen some extremes of that in others on television or in print, but I would not apply that to Andrew Wommack. I have perceived others to give that kind of message for reasons of personal gain, but again, my discernment is Andrew is teaching for the benefit of the growth of the body of Christ.

For those that state health/wealth teaching is dangerous, are you referring to any teaching at all on the topic, or are you applying your comments to an extreme example? If wealth is dangerous, why did God prosper Abraham, David, Solomon, and the nation of Israel when they came in to the promised land, just to name a few? If teaching health is dangerous, why did Jesus heal the multitudes?

The example shown in scripture is God has blessed us with a body that has the capacity for health as being the normal state. Symptoms of illness tell us something is wrong with the body and it is in a state of dis-ease.

God has also blessed us with the capacity to be a steward of finances and earthly goods. The Bible tells us that if we are faithful with little, He will make us ruler over much. God has also told us that we shall have no other gods before Him. Health and wealth are blessings from God, not idols.

There is obviously much more that can be said, but I will leave this response with the conclusion that Andrew Wommack teaches on much more than health and prosperity, all of which I have found to be a blessing for my life.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Hi Ron. What is your point about Jesus talking about a literal mountain? Were you meaning that he wasn't trying to relate the mountain to other, seemingly impossible, situations?

The fact that he had just come down from the mountain and was in the locality made it possible to actually 'point' to 'this mountain'. He was not, in my view, talking about 'mountaneous problems' but simply revealing the extraordinary power of genuine faith.

For those that state health/wealth teaching is dangerous, are you referring to any teaching at all on the topic, or are you applying your comments to an extreme example? If wealth is dangerous, why did God prosper Abraham,

In most prosperity preachers this goes hand in hand with the declaration that the only reason that people are poor or sick it because they don't have enough faith. I have recently returned from Malawi where this teaching is making some headway. In the West this teaching is foolish, in Malawi it is obscene.

as far as I know, no one has ever spoken to a literal mountain and moved it

Hi Ron. What is your point about Jesus talking about a literal mountain? Were you meaning that he wasn't trying to relate the mountain to other, seemingly impossible, situations?

My point was taking up your suggestion that the mountains that Christ moved were figurative. 'moving mountains' may have become a figurative way of talking about dealing with impossible situations but Christ's point was not about 'figurative mountains'. He was actually saying that real mountains could be moved by those with genuine faith.

The fact that he had just come down from the mountain and was in the locality made it possible to actually 'point' to 'this mountain'. He was not, in my view, talking about 'mountaneous problems' but simply revealing the extraordinary power of genuine faith.

Hi Ron,

I'm not quite following the conversation yet, but I want to. Let me share my situation on the matter and then you respond. I struggled for years with the idea of moving mountains and what Christ was trying to say and that I have never moved a literal mountain as my Lord was saying, until the thought that has already been stated occurred to me: how many mountains did Christ move? That is not the main focus, since Christ did say we would do greater works than he does, but the question I still have is: was Christ concerned with moving mountains or uprooting trees and planting them in the sea? Elsewhere, Jesus said, "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." Yes, he was not referring to a theoretical, unseen mountain as you say. As he often did, he was pointing to "this mountain" to use in his object lesson, but I still do not conclude he was motivating his disciples to move literal mountains. It seems to me he is making spiritual statements here. If so, Christ and his disciples moved many mountains, otherwise they have failed in this respect.

Thank you for your patience and any response, if desired. :-)

He was not, in my view, talking about 'mountaneous problems' but simply revealing the extraordinary power of genuine faith.

I suppose I don't understand how anyone could interpret that scripture to say that he was not talking about mountainous problems when he follows up with the line, "nothing shall be impossible to you." By that, it seems to me that he was talking about anything, any problem you might have. Nothing in the Greek means nothing. Which in this case would include everything from mountains to molehills. :-) Dian.

Is the problem that this interpretation limits that passage to mountainous problems, as opposed to making a general statement about the power of unwaivering faith (that goes beyond just fixing our problems).

This whole thing started because I was answering a guy's question on what I thought about Andrew Wommack's ministry. I simply reflected on a that verse of scripture where Jesus said if we had faith the size of a mustard seed, we could move "this mountain" and then he follows it with "nothing shall be impossible to you." My point was that I don't believe we have even scratched the surface of "believing", which to me is what real faith is.

Of course, faith isn't just about fixing our problems in life, it really comes down to an acknowledgement that, without God, we have no hope. But Jesus did come to save us in every sense of the word.

I believe some people in life are living on a different level of grace than others because they believe what Jesus said.

Andrew Wommack's testimony includes a story of one of his son's who was killed (already had a toe tag on), and when Andrew got to the hospital and spoke to him, he was raised from the dead.

I honestly feel like there's a general air here on SI of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I wonder how many of the regulars here would speak to their dead son to get up or would we just feel that it was God's will that he stay dead?

It seems to me that we should be careful of missing the truth in this verse of scripture, which challeges me everyday to think outside the bounds of my own human logic.

Here is a link to a video about a woman who carried her dead husband around for days until God raised him to life again. She literally went and picked him up at the morgue! Maybe some will think this isn't true, but, if it is true, it makes me wonder if I would have the faith to do such a thing as this woman supposedly did.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2575536377261580026&q=gradman

I don't want to be unbalanced in what I believe. I simply want to think like God thinks and if he says I can do anything, then I want to [i]do[/i] it! It's really about taking the limits off of God. If he's the kind of God who would raise a man who had been dead for 3 days and whose wife carried him around in a coffin, then, I want to be sure that I believe! Love, Dian.

I just want to say one more thing to follow up my last post. There is a scripture which says "my people perish for lack of knowledge." I wonder how many people would have lived during the black plague if they had simply known that it was the rats that were carrying the disease. People don't die from the plague anymore because, now we know. Perhaps there is more that we don't know...

Also, I want to say a word about personal promises. The woman in that video had a personal promise from God which was compelling her to believe that her husband should not die at that time. I believe that, not near enough credence is being given to personal promises. It was a personal promise to Abraham which gave him the faith to believe that he would have a son and the Bible is full of examples of God giving people personal promises which inspire them to faith.

I have personal promises from God which cause me to defy the facts of my life and press on in faith for the fulfillment of my personal promises.

God spoke to me audibly and told me that I would live to be 80 something and that I would do everything that he has put in my heart to do. I'm 49 years old, so now, when I feel like I can't go on, I know it's a lie, because God said I am going to live to be 80 something. And when I grow weary in pursuing some of my heart's passions, I remember that God said I'm going to do everything that he has put in my heart to do, and I press on in faith...Dian.

Yes, he was not referring to a theoretical, unseen mountain as you say. As he often did, he was pointing to "this mountain" to use in his object lesson, but I still do not conclude he was motivating his disciples to move literal mountains.

Christ is not trying to get us into the methodology of 'moving mountains' but is speaking to the need of genuine faith, which although tiny in its beginnings is a greater power than we can imagine.

Paul speaks of 'faith unfeigned' (1Tim 1:5) ie faith without hypocrisy, and as the Greek word for actor is hypocrit we might translate it 'faith without pretence'; the genuine article. There would never have been any need to add the adjective 'unfeigned' if it were not for the existence of 'fake faith'.

Webster's has two definitions of a mountain. The second is: "2 a : a great mass b : a vast number or quantity". As in a mountain of chips, a mountain of candy, a mountain of problems. The EU had a butter mountain at one time. You could travel the length and breadth of the EU and never find it. It was a good way of representing a serious problem with over production, but wasn't real. The butter was stored in cold storage all over the EU. It also had a wine lake, but it wasn't open for swimming. :-)

The first meaning in Websters is "1 a : a landmass that projects conspicuously above its surroundings and is higher than a hill b : an elongated ridge." This is a real mountain that people might want to climb and is the meaning of the word in Greek.

The message is clearer from the related teaching in Luke:

[color=009900]Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.[/color]

We do not say a sycamine tree of chips, problems, etc. This was a real tree.

So, if we now agree Jesus was referring to real things, when giving this teaching, and that He did not move any real mountains, or sycamine trees. My next question is:

Did the Lord have faith to move mountains or sycamine trees during His earthly ministry?

Mike

Ron B "philologos"

Thank you for clarifying what is dangerous about health and wealth teaching. I can wholeheartedly agree with your statement. The basis of being poor or sick because of a lack of God's favor only puts condemnation upon those in that situation. Even King David asked of God why the heathen prosper. It certainly isn't because of their great faith.

I also want to thank you for stating "In most prosperity preachers..." instead of All prosperity preachers. Again, I can say that what I have heard from Andrew Wommack, that kind of extreme teaching is not what he communicates, nor do I hear it from any of the other teachers I mentioned in my first reply on May 3.

Since I am new to this web-site posting question and answer, I am not familiar with the regulations of what is acceptable in terms of taking a question in other directions. I would find it interesting to continue with the topic of health and wealth as it relates to the Bible, but I will conclude by keeping the original question as the basis of this reply. "Simonb" was asking if anyone was familiar with Andrew Wommack. I read the responses of others stating they didn't care for him. I have not been sent here by Andrew Wommack Ministries to defend him; I am simply stating my observation that he, along with the other names mentioned in my first reply, has made a remarkable difference in my spiritual growth. So download a message or two from his web-site and decide for yourself.

Thanks again.

Dian wrote:

I wonder how many of the regulars here would speak to their dead son to get up or would we just feel that it was God's will that he stay dead?

OK, you can count me as a regular....so do I qualify to answer this question? Whether I do or not here goes: On April 9 we buried my 80 YO father; on Jan. 18, 1996 we buried our 25 YO daughter. The bodies were dead when they were buried and are still dead. Now the saying "The young can die but the old must die" may enter in here for our discussion, so we must consider this, OK?

Did I have the faith God could heal Regina? Yes, I did, but He said "NO." As a child of the King I took his word gracefully and went on with my life. In the meantime, I was comforted supernaturally, the likes of which I have never before nor since experienced. And not only that, I believe she AND my dad are with the LORD, so why on earth would you want them back here to live in this sin cursed world, anyhow? Lady, we had five cxildren and our goals were to teach these children so when life ends they can live with the LORD in all eternity. So what if one gets there before I do? An American parent does not expect to bury their child: a child expects to bury the parent. But God sometimes says "No" and it is in our best interest to accept His answer and continue to look to Him because you can righfully know He has a better plan then what you think you do.

Dian, I sense, you have greater problems then whether one has the faith to raise the dead to life. The question that dogs me is why on earth do you want to raise someone who loved the LORD???? Do you really believe in heaven? or an eternal abiding place for the saiints of God that is absolutely wonderful? I wonder....I do not understand the motivation of your question...

ginnyrose

....I do not understand the motivation of your question

The motivation of my question is the glory of God. Also, I [i]did[/i] follow my first post with a second that I hoped would clarify that our faith is directed by our personal promises from God. We shouldn't just be deciding for ourselves what we want and speaking to things just for the sake of having them, like some magic trick. Faith is not magic, but I do believe Hebrews makes it clear that people are in danger of not receiving what God wants them to receive because of their own unbelief.

Dian, I sense, you have greater problems then whether one has the faith to raise the dead to life.

I am definitely not impressed with people who think they've got everything all figured out.

I've said the things I've said here because I want to believe God for all that he has for me and I think we will find out, when it's all said and done, that we missed out on many blessings because we didn't believe. We'll find that things could have been different if we would have believed what God said, so I'm striving to believe. Oh God, help my unbelief! Dian.

Ginnyrose, I'm sorry for your painful losses. I truly am. What a severe trial! Bless you, Sister.

The question that dogs me is why on earth do you want to raise someone who loved the LORD????

Did Lazarus love the Lord? Jesus raised him from the dead for the glory of God. It wasn't time for Lazarus to stay in the grave. I'm sure he did eventually go to the grave and stay there.

Do you really believe in heaven? or an eternal abiding place for the saiints of God that is absolutely wonderful?

Oh yes, Sister, I do believe, but I believe many will miss it because they are simply religious but don't really believe, and I'm striving to be certain I'm not one of those. Love, Dian.

Oh yes, Sister, I do believe, but I believe many will miss it because they are simply religious but don't really believe, and I'm striving to be certain I'm not one of those. Love, Dian.

As to those who are regulars on this board I haven't seen any yet who hasn't at one time or another repented and or apologized, and I don't believe any of us believes we have all the answers.

Could you clarify what you mean by simply religious?

Could you clarify what you mean by simply religious?

These types of people are almost always in the church or they have been at one time or another. They know of God, they have knowledge but they don't have relationship. They're security is in a bunch of stuff they've heard someone else say or half-truths. They're legalistic and demanding of others, jockeying for position among their Christian circles like they're playing some kind of sport. "Look at me, I'm somebody." In their hearts they think they are better than most people and you can tell by the way they so quickly write people off. They don't love and they don't suffer long and they maintain their secret sins while they walk around with their spiritual noses stuck in the air, just waiting on an opportunity to "score".

Jesus called them a brood of vipers, whitewashed sepulchers, who would think they were doing God a favor by killing you, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men. They don't love God and they are not jealous for the glory of God and they do not love righteousness. Instead, they are looking for some way to exalt themselves and establish themselves as the authority and appear as God's "chosen". These are the very one's who cried "crucify him!" and they are the one's who don't like it now when the Holy Spirit does something they don't endorse cause they think they know God better than he knows himself. Dian.

Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Are menpleasers who do things in the church with eyeservice saved? or just religious?

Dian,

Interesting reply...

Dian, do you not think the greatest problem humans have with God and the blessings we can reasonably expect from him are simply we are too self-centered? we want to satisfy our own 'lusts' instead of making ourselves available to God and then lettting him do as he wills? As I study the scriptures the blessings God bestowed upon his children came as a by-product of them walking with Him in obedience. And not always were his children so wonderfully blessed: some even died not having seen the promises fulfilled in their liftime.(Read Hebrews 11.) Seems to me if we focus our attention on blessings we will miss it entirely because we are focusing on our own self-interests rather then God.

BTW, it has been through the many afflictions that I have come to know God in a deeper way. Do you not know that when all goes well we experience no need for Him? I am by nature a very independant person and God has had to work to make me dependant! Now this process is an ongoing one which I suspect will pursue me until I die.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Do you not know that when all goes well we experience no need for Him?

No, I didn't know that. I guess I've never experienced pain like you have. Thanks for sharing. Dian.

Philologos

The fact that he had just come down from the mountain and was in the locality made it possible to actually 'point' to 'this mountain'. He was not, in my view, talking about 'mountaneous problems' but simply revealing the extraordinary power of genuine faith.

Spitfire

I believe some people in life are living on a different level of grace than others because they believe what Jesus said.

I don't want to be unbalanced in what I believe. I simply want to think like God thinks and if he says I can do anything, then I want to do it! It's really about taking the limits off of God.

Also, I want to say a word about personal promises. The woman in that video had a personal promise from God which was compelling her to believe that her husband should not die at that time. I believe that, not near enough credence is being given to personal promises. It was a personal promise to Abraham which gave him the faith to believe that he would have a son and the Bible is full of examples of God giving people personal promises which inspire them to faith.

Philologos

He was emphasising the dynamic power of genuine faith.

Christ is not trying to get us into the methodology of 'moving mountains' but is speaking to the need of genuine faith, which although tiny in its beginnings is a greater power than we can imagine.

MikeH

Did the Lord have faith to move mountains or sycamine trees during His earthly ministry?

Spitfire

I honestly feel like there's a general air here on SI of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Out of all of these, thought I would take this last one first. Dian, I hope this is more perception than anything. It happens but as a general sentiment ... I don't know sister. Perhaps it is just normal for me to want to defend this ... cause here and when it is attributed to SI as a whole, maybe I want to say, there is too many 'parts'? But with that out of the way and a nod towards understanding certainly ... I am with you dear sister! Just reading and dwelling on the simple mentions from Ron, from yourself ... [i]genuine faith[/i], the [i]power[/i] of this [i]kind[/i] of faith. When Zac Poonen was here recently he was talking about George Mueller and just flatly stated that he didn't have that [i]kind[/i] of faith. Not to categorize 'kind' as a lone, secret substance, just being honest, being honest as you have and asking the question, why do I not have this kind of faith? Without bogging down into the reasons that many of likely have gone to the opposite end of the spectrum because of the abuse of ... speculative faith? Or maybe presumptuous faith, think that is closer to what a lot of the aforementioned styles we are aware of, of the 'health and wealth' variety and so forth.

What I wanted to interject was how there was a sense of excitement in just coming back to the reality of what Jesus meant when He said it. I think both you and Ron agree completely in what is available, there is that seemingly little word that the Lord often used;

[i]If[/i]

Indeed, what [i]if[/i]? What if we truly believed to that fullest possibility? Wouldn't it really just make a great deal of the things that might boggle the natural mind ... well, commonplace? Not in common as in occurrence, but common as in ... He already stated that it would be so and if we had that kind of faith and believed Him then the outcomes would be only a matter of course. It seems the further I go on the dynamics change in perception. To hear the account you brought forth for instance, about the woman carrying around her dead husband, a couple of years ago would have dismissed it before or with perhaps only a little bit of ... '[i]well of course it's possible[/i]" and with the brain musing "not likely, but possible". The difference now is not in the validity ... but in the possibility and the "of course" is reversed. It just naturally follows. Hope that makes sense, it is not to get bogged down into semantics and trying to unravel everything nor to just accept everything without question ... these things begin to grow old and weary when usually, if they are not local, the person unknown, all the things telling of character and integrity, etc. etc. there is no way of knowing. It's just beyond that.

My all time favorite still is just this example and where I would draw in MikeH's quote from above;

[i]And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched. And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me. And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately. And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.[/i] Luk 8:43-48

It is not that the Lord 'has faith' or needs faith to do anything (sorry MikeH, I am not inferring anything here). He knew full well Who He was ... Trying to stay on track here ... It is just this kind of faith that always pleased the Lord and goes way beyond the cerebral. The woman who touched Him, touched Him with her faith and we have likely all heard a variety of messages that stem off of that, the ones I recall (not here particularly) just seem to glide past that though. She most certainly made physical contact with Jesus as that was her faith that was driving her "[i]If only ...[/i]"
Which comes from Mark's telling of it (Interesting how these two accounts have blended together through the years, even subconsciously). The perception I would gather from this is if she would have been half-hearted in her desire (faith) to touch Jesus and be healed, the disciples would have been right in their reasoning [i]"the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?[/i]" and the Lord would never had even taken any notice, she being any different than anyone else pressing against him as he moved through the crowds.

But then the greatest part is that profound and faith provoking statement;

[i]Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.[/i]

Could it be said here that it also just ... naturally follows? It is quite profound and incredible and begs for better adjectives. This is faith at it's purest, deepest ... [i]spiritual[/i] level. He did not see her, but He felt her, not her physical grab, but her tremendous faith, faith that would not give up until it reached it's objective. On the flip side, she felt that she had to ... [i]feel[/i], truly touch Him physically and was obviously convinced so, how she had no idea that it wasn't' that holding on, laying her physically touch that drew out from the Lord .... Beautiful paradox! It just gets to words unspeakable to dwell on how she afterwards [i]came trembling[/i] ... What must have been going through her mind ... This is a very humbling and beautiful thing to look at and dwell on, how far from where many would take this incredible incident and make ... I cannot go there with it.

All the instances that pleased the Lord, "Great faith", the centurion got it, in other words recognized who Jesus was. There is so much that is behind His words, the things that show forth, it is something I have been giving a great deal of thought towards. Last night I was musing on how all His recorded words were by others and how incredibly impossible it would be for these mere men to ... "build a character" if I could put it that way. Jesus 'spoke with authority' and even His silence spoke with authority, it is so far past us and I often marvel at how the distilling of His words can just exceed ... what is back of them all. To put it another way, for the redeemed, that truly know the Lord He could walk through a similar thronging crowd now and many would have not the faintest idea if they did not know Him or know that he was there in their midst, but for the redeemed we would know instantly .. even if we couldn't see Him for the crowd. We would surely know it.

A little diversion there, but this matter of faith needs a whole lot more investigation on our part I believe. Not the abuses and all the rest, but like Dian, like Ron mentioned ... there is a great deal here we have hardly begun to tap into.

Indeed, what if? What if we truly believed to that fullest possibility? Wouldn't it really just make a great deal of the things that might boggle the natural mind ... well, commonplace?

This is all I've been trying to say. I believe. I want to believe more. I want to have the kind of faith when I [u][i][b]KNOW[/b][/i][/u] that God has spoken something to my heart, that, I refuse to give up, but I press through the throng until I've touched Him. I don't want to be moved by the way things look in the natural or by human logic or reasoning, but I want to be moved by one thing..."God said".

I believe we've come to accept things the way they are just a little too good. We are created in God's image and as those who have been accepted into God's family, then we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ. He raised people from the dead.

Heck, Paul raised a man from the dead who simply fell asleep and fell out of a window. Paul just didn't want that to be the gossip going around about his meetings..."Oh, don't go hear Paul speak cause he's so boring someone fell asleep and fell out of a window and died." ;-)

I've tried to raise a dead dog. We loved him and didn't want him to die. He died anyway. So, ok, I'm still gonna try to raise things from the dead. Maybe someday...

this matter of faith needs a whole lot more investigation on our part I believe.

That's all I've been trying to say. Someone asked the question, "What do you think about Andrew Wommack?", and I said, "he believes what he's saying more than anyone I've ever heard and he has made me think long and hard about who I am in Christ." I respect the man for that. He may be wrong about alot of things, but I respect the fact that a good thing (for me) has come out of listening to his messages.

Mikey, bless you. What you said..."what he said". Love, Dian.

Peter just didn't want that to be the gossip going around about his meetings..."Oh, don't go hear Peter speak cause he's so boring someone fell asleep and fell out of a window and died."

Only that was Paul sister :-)

but I want to be moved by one thing..."God said".

Yes! Absolutely, had gone off on a ramble recently on just these two words. This is our great dilemma and problem. It's not ten thousand other things and perhaps it's the unfortunate part of so much poor, exaggerated preaching and teaching, presumption upon the Lord that makes for new homes and cars and shiny objects that we are compelled to have a great disclaimer over everything, a preface to dislodge ... [i]pure faith[/i] from all the shenanigans. It is to set all that aside, or perhaps get it out of the way and state; where does this leave us now?

Unbelief is a great killer. Putting all kinds of presupposings into the rational aspect ... Ah, how to grapple with this out-loud? There may be much more to your mention of throwing the baby out with the bath water than I know. We may unconsciously be dumbing down or making things more manageable as either a buttress against the modern days penchant for faith as a means to a selfish end, for trinkets ultimately that rust and perish ... it is not to wholesale dismiss all these things completely either, [i]the Father knows that you have need of these things[/i] just as making them central... faith as utility, God as utilitarian (Paris Reidhead).

You mentioned your dog, likewise my mothers recent death. Siting on her death bed I prayed that simple prayer, "Lord, you could raise her right back to life again". In that clear moment, the thoughts weren't towards doubt's and confusion or systematically dissecting everything ... it was just left as an unfinished thought and utterance. It repeated itself in a variety of ways even after she had been embalmed! Recall thinking ... wouldn't that be something!

It is here where the great proscription and warning against presumption comes into play;

[i]Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. [/i] Jas 4:13-15

This isn't a matter of doubting. What strikes me is how much ... that strikes us never disheveled the apostles after the Lord had risen and they ha both seen the Lord risen again and were filled with His Holy Spirit. In a sense it is to say "We have seen everything there is to be seen" And they didn't need to presume one way or the other ... [i]it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us[/i]. It was a settled matter. If it was the Lords will, very well, if not, very well, just as well! I think this is where the whole grievous idea of smiting the sheep for their unbelief and lack of faith goes off the rails, especially in the 'name and claim it', prosperity realms. To guilt people into fault and invert doubts ... it's purely manipulation and highly diabolical. See, even here the disclaimers seem to have to come in, this low level of Christendom has just integrated itself into the fabric

Recall talking with my dad shortly after my Ma departed her wracked physical confines and telling him I had prayed that the Lord would take her from her misery and he said, 'I prayed that He would heal her'. and I quickly added 'Oh, but of course Pa, I did as well, absolutely ... but I also had to pray that it be the Lords will, that if He would not heal her than to take her to Himself." This wasn't a 'covering the bases' ... I just had the thought somewhere in the background of ..[i]The Lord has need of her[/i]"... I don't know particularly why, but that was the thought. The thing about it was ... it was beautiful. Peaceful. This peculiar, sweet, settled confidence, even if it was to be later mingled with some sadness and mourning. It came up at the grave site... "Even now Lord ... you could ..." and again a month later visiting the location and attending my co-workers young son's funeral ... "Both of them Father ...". Maybe all I am trying to express here is ... it's a settled matter. Hanging around, praying, gazing out on the vast field of departed people. Dead people, this stark reality ... the saints buried there ... [i]the day[/i], that incredible and indescribable day. How it might play out ... pondered the idea of dirt and lawn just exploding and flying everywhere, caskets being flung open ... fantastical? absurd? [i]Possible?[/i] There is that account ...

[i]And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.[/i] Mat 27:51

Yeah, surely we 'know all these things" and in certain circumstances it is far easier to believe and have 'great faith' than others. And it is here where the rubber truly meets the road. In everyday common circumstances why am I unable to have this same [i]kind[/i] of faith? I despise 'blame' as a cop out, as an excuse and surely there are factors that make things more difficult. I know it has been touched on here in the past, the idea that because we are much more comfortable and by and large 'well off' by way of comparison ... "Great faith" is not always ... 'needed' if I can put that the right way, with the right intention. Those that are under persecution, that have little to nothing, are in all kinds of dire circumstances ... I do believe it is true that the reason we don't hear of the truly 'miraculous' in the Western world is because we haven't been put to the test of true, utter dependence and just as well, why the reports that often come from our realm have that tinge of "manufacturing" attached to it, along with all the associated baggage that the pundits world shout loudly as "proof", as Ron mentioned a bit earlier here.

Started to mention this elsewhere, atmosphere. My work environment for instance. It's pleasant, absurd and ridiculous the sheer amount of things that need to be done, but pleasant enough. Everyone is busy. The people are 'good' in the right sense, morally outwardly, by conduct and all that ... yes, I realize they are predominantly evil, sinners and heathens at heart. Little gossip for the most part, at least that that I am aware of. It's a great place, I love it, love the people, love working there a whole cross section of cultures and backgrounds, people from all over the world, all kinds of personalities. But for all that the atmosphere is one that is still [i]opposed[/i] to having God in it's midst. It's a business. It is a great struggle to ... have put it this way before ...[i]bring my faith to work[/i] not the notion that has it the other way around, that of 'evangelizing the work place' and all that. What I mean is, from here. from fellowship with the saints, from the prayer closet and then out that door into 'the world' ... well it's [i]their world[/i] (again a redundant thought expressed elsewhere). In some ways and very carefully will I put it, it can be more difficult for us to fight against these forces, this atmosphere that ... doesn't 'need God', doesn't acknowledge Him ... back of everything. It's enough to want to flee to become a monk at times, just to get away from the atmosphere, to concentrate fully on the Lord, to have that certainty of doing something [i]for[/i] Him rather than seemingly going through the motions ... But, I also know far better than all that. There is good reason for all this, I may not be able to articulate it adequately or even have the foggiest idea what it is all leading to but there are hints along the way. A great deal of it is character aspects, I can tell much more by all the failures and reminders on a day to day basis. A lot of crafting and chiseling and testing, how the responding goes in challenging circumstances, in being patronized and belittled at times ... even how the challenge of perception of those things, my [i]own presumptions[/i] of those things, of others. I work with some very, very intelligent people, far beyond me in their areas of expertise. It makes for a whole lot of holding the tongue or rather, [i]ought to[/i], some progress I pray along these lines. At the least, to dispel the thoughts of assuming as soon as they begin to rear heir ugly head ... it is possible to hold two seemingly contradictory thoughts in tension without coming to a fixed and complete conclusion. Well this is quite the ramble again. But to have faith out there in everyday practical circumstances I am finding very difficult indeed ... there is still too much 'I can't' that intrudes into the daily life, too little faith in practical matters...

Dian,

I understand your concern...you want a faith that is vibrant, that gets things done. And what child of God does NOT want this? However, it seems to me you may be a tad bit too concerned about raising the dead as a check point in determining whether a person has faith. Now in this I would be so very cautious. I have heard of people who had near death experiences and had to battle depression [later] because they came back. They could not understand why the LORD would not allow them to stay. Dian, I would not for anything want to impose this upon anyone. Death is here to stay: this we must accept.

After Regina died I had two deams about her: that she had returned. Now this was as real as could be. I saw her walking towards me. I said:"Gina! You're back!" She replied, "No, Mom, I am not coming back!" And I respond with deep sobs. Life is too difficult here. So when one goes on to be with the LORD, don't try to bring them back here! Dian, if I were to die and someone would resurrect me, I would not be all that happy, I am sure! I want to stay with my LORD! I have lived, worked for him and please do not deny me my wages when it is due!

But to have faith to remove mountains: I have never had this kind. Yet when we study the WORD we can see where the impetus to do a miracle came when the worker was walking close with God. We also read in 1Corinthians 12:10 that miracle-working is a gift. If you ain't got it, don't sweat it. On the other hand, I read where mircles are common in third world countries. If we study the context, the entire scriptures, miracles are done with only one purpose: to honor and glorify God. How many modern miracle-workers in the western world will go on TV to promote themselves, the miracle after something spectaular occurs? Americans are too proud, work too hard to be in the limelight, displacing God as the sole authority for life: have substituted logic, reasoning for his clear teachings/directives.

Somehow I get the feeling that once we are so close in walking with God our focus will not be on miracles but to be with HIM in service. In being close to him I get the mental picture of a child who is walking with his/her daddy, arms around each other and the child matching his stride with his fathers'. Are we doing the same? I suspect if this were the case, the importance of miracles would diminish but would be replaced by love as described in 1 Cor. 13.

Good thread, Dian.

Blessings,

ginnyrose

Hello this is my first time writing on anything on the web, but I'm desperately wanting to converse about deep spiritual things of Our Lord. On Nov 4th 2005 I surrendered my whole life to Jesus Christ and I am so gratefull to the Father for sending Him to earth to atone for our sins. These past two years have been dificult because I knew something awsome had happened to me, I had no one who really undrestood, what a miricle it was for me to have God change my heart the way He did, I even had someone at church tell me that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, mind you that I told no one that I had seen an angel. I am so in love with Jesus and everything about Him that His unconditional love for me made me love others even the ones that I used to hate before. Someone that has had a regenerated heart from God please write me.

I had been listening to Andrew Wommack off and on for about 5 months and I used to fall asleep so good listening to him, because the natural man cannot persive spiritual truths, but I was searching for God with all of my heart and He knows this, that on Nov 4, 2005 Andrew was preaching, just sitting on a chair and not shouting like some other preachers. He said that Jesus said we had to be born again to see the kingdom of God, and I knew that I had not been born again, let's not be stupid and ignorant that we should know when we haven't been born again. So I prayed to God in my own living room and prayed the most selfish prayer a human being can pray. God if you change my Husband, kids and so and so I'll be happy, I was serious. And I heard a voice deep within me that was not mine and it was not audible say "Child you should change" I asked "What" then I heard it again, that's when I raised up my arms and said "Lord Jesus change me", and imediatelly I was in the Lords presence, and being in His presence and HOLYNESS, because that is what He is. I felt my shame and rotteness that you have to ask for forgiveness and the rest is history. So don't knock some evangelists on tv they are not all bad.

Hello Dian,
I agree with you I just became a born again beliver and I have been meeting professing Christians that say they have a relationship with Christ and they are so mean and negative all they do is complain instead of praising God for being so good to us that enables us to love with perfect love.

i have been listening to andrew wommack for almost a year. He has changed my life. He revolutionized my walk with the Lord. I am healed of depression, discouragement, and doubt. Praise God someone is willing to stand up and tell it like it is. He is the ONLY one who does not charge for the Gospel. A first!! in my 20 year walk.

vico wrote:
AAAAAHHHHH!!!!

but a lot of people are falling for this health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. This is definitely dangerous stuff.

Yea your right! this is definitely dangerous stuff I would rather attend a Church that teaches we should be Sick, Poor and also teaches the good old Downtrodden or Oppression Gospel, now that is what Jesus taught right? :-(

Read this thread with interest and have not heard the man mentioned in the beginning of the thread so I have no comment upon someone whom I have never read, however since the discussion has moved beyond him to faith in general:
Having been on both sides of this aisle, a grandson that got cancer at age 8 and died shortly before his 13th birthday, two children dying with Huntington's, a wife that died with it, presently in the hospital with a child with CP who has pnuemonia, and being on hand many times when others that I have loved had left the temporary and entered into ETERNITY it is very easy to feel like there must be something terribly wrong with your faith to not be able to raise these dead bodies or command this cancer to leave, or cure this hereditary disease and blah, blah, blah... all of which has to do with the hear and now and none of which has to do with eternity which is our next step. It is wonderful and good for there to be healing, and I have been instantly healed before, and seen others instantly healed, others progressively healed, certainly have seen the dead in trespasses and sins, brought to life, but...
the whole Gospel... regardless of how many miracles the Lord did, what was the point of His miracles? The man who had been crippled, let down from the roof? He forgave the sin first, and healed afterwards so that they would know that the Son of Man had power to forgive sins.

Far, far too much emphasis on the here and now, whereas in just a little while these healed bodies, or raised bodies, or whatever will be somewhere in ETERNITY.

Second point and I'm done, or rather second question: the faith chapter in the Bible, Hebrews 11, tell me what kind of faith dominates that chapter? Does it not take far more faith to "not accept deliverance", far more faith to say, "though he slay me", far more faith to keep going on when there are nothing but clouds and darkness surrounding you, knowing full well that He has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you" when from all that you "see" He has.

Faith that is seen is not faith, neither hope that is seen according to Paul. Seeing the "invisible" takes far more faith than seeing and seeking the "signs and wonders". And as far as the "downtrodden and oppression", try Paul's faith:
2 Corinthians 4:7 - 12 (ESV) 7But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 8We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. 11For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12So death is at work in us, but life in you... edited to add:
2 Corinthians 4:16 - 18 (ESV) 16So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed day by day. 17For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

Thank God for miracles, but thank God for the Amy Carmichael's, the Hudson Taylor's, the C. T. Studd's, and so many, many more, whose faith made them glorify God while the world, the flesh, and the devil, was saying, curse God and die.

Clint

Ron said: I think people who propagate this kind of stuff are dangerous and I steer clear of them.

Ginnyrose said: If we study the context, the entire scriptures, miracles are done with only one purpose: to honor and glorify God. How many modern miracle-workers in the western world will go on TV to promote themselves, the miracle after something spectaular occurs? Americans are too proud, work too hard to be in the limelight, displacing God as the sole authority for life: have substituted logic, reasoning for his clear teachings/directives.

Dian’s signature says: "The greatest failure of the church is to prepare God's people for suffering." Basilea Schlink

Amen to that!

I apologize if I pounced a little too quickly onto this subject, but I have seen all too many through the years that have been pushed farther down into despair by the kind of preaching/teaching that is just like what came out of the mouths of those who were Job’s comforters. If you read the comments of Job’s comforters you find them using the very same kind of reasoning that is used repeatedly today with those who proclaim all sorts of super faith and that are trying to bring the rest of us “up” to their exalted level. The line to Job was “if you were” or “if you would”. And their assessment of Job was “you are not, because…”

But what was God’s testimony of Job? That is the important question. The devil’s line of reasoning with the very Son of God was, “if you are the son of God command…” He commanded and healed and raised the dead on His own terms and for the one purpose of glorifying the Father and verifying the Word that He spoke.

There is far too much of this measurement of faith by miracles and far too little upon what faith indeed is, and that is[i]perfect trust [/i] regardless, which is precisely the kind of faith that Abraham displayed. Jesus said, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe”.

What a trail of faith found through all these centuries of those who during the course of their ministering to the lost, lost all and counted it but dung for the sake of Jesus Christ, and their contribution to the kingdom cannot be measured from the Fanny Crosby’s, the David Brainerd’s, David Livingstone’s, Corrie ten Boon’s, the martyrs around the world, and on and on… those are the kinds of lives that put us on our knees seeking for far more than seeing physical bodies healed to die again.

What a vast difference in being intimidated by the sheer holiness of lives rather than intimidated by comparing whether “I have the faith to raise the dead or to heal the sick”.

I apologize if I have offended anyone by the interruption of this thread, and I certainly do not mean to compare and compete in suffering, with this tip of the iceberg that I have mentioned… it is all a part of being in this fallen world. I believe it we look at the miracles of Jesus and those that occurred in the lives of the apostles, in the context of the whole of scripture, we will find a far different emphasis than is found in those who claim to glorify Jesus Christ, but whose names are wowed because of their great faith, rather than Jesus Christ truly glorified because of His greatness and His holiness.

One more thought that I believe that needs to be articulated, and that is knowing God in His righteous judgments… the degree of suffering, such as was witnessed during the holocaust, and no doubt will be witnessed again… What will happen to “faith” during those scenes when instead of healing and deliverance and raising the dead, the dead are stacked like so much cord-wood and the mourning has passed beyond the point of tears? Will the kind of preaching/teaching that emphasizes raising the dead and healing the sick and faith from that [i]very narrow perspective[/i] of faith help during those times of crisis that are so frequently referred to in the Psalms where God seems to be silent and the heavens seem to be brass, because of the abounding sin… ??

I love you folks here on this site… even those who need an extra cup of coffee and those who ‘did’ it all, and even the crunchy ones… I want us all to be, as was stated on another thread by Mike B. to be ready and “faithful” for and [b]through[/b] “whatever”. :-)

Clint

Clint, you make the perfect point and illustration by way of Hebrews. Seems a hinge is presented right at 11:36

[i]And others had[/i] ...

... trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

Some delivered others tormented. Who decides? Who determines these things?

Yea your right! this is definitely dangerous stuff I would rather attend a Church that teaches we should be Sick, Poor and also teaches the good old Downtrodden or Oppression Gospel, now that is what Jesus taught right?

Mr. Bill ...

You have been with us a long time. Brother, your barbs are getting weary and are highly unnecessary. The ideal of 'nobodies perfect' is often bandied about and yet you have turned to sarcasm as a posture and a defense. Can you strike a balance without the baby and the bathwater approach? It is redundant to keep repeating that there are very valid concerns expressed by those who have experienced the very worst of these things and you would make light of it ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A thought to the matter here ...

[i]In fact, even CHRISTIAN AMERICANS love the Almighty dollar so much that they are willing to make up ENTIRE DOCTRINES to prove that God loves money just as much as they do. It is a new kind of gospel - never seen in the history of the world before. The Americans invented it and spread it around the earth. And now, even in REVIVAL COUNTRIES, this gospel of greed is taking over. Carter Conlon says that he was in a poor African nation recently where there are 700,000 little children living without parents on the streets - and yet the PASTORS ARE DRIVING BMW's and preaching SELFISH PROSPERITY. Where did they get such sickness? -They got it from America. We beam it to them live by satellite.[/i]

[i]Has there ever been an American generation whose preachers go on satellite television and teach other leaders in 'Revival' countries how to "milk" the sheep for money, and grow rich at the expense of the poor? No, I tell you, America has NEVER done this before. Our TV preachers are now actually being used by the devil to corrupt true moves of God all over the globe. (Go to Nigeria, Ghana, Brazil and see what I mean. American "Prosperity" is everywhere - and still spreading).[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21884&forum=35&9]Andrew Strom [/url]

There is a word that codifies all this, one word;

Invention.

crsschk wrote:

Mr. Bill ...

You have been with us a long time. Brother, your barbs are getting weary and are highly unnecessary. The ideal of 'nobodies perfect' is often bandied about and yet you have turned to sarcasm as a posture and a defense. Can you strike a balance without the baby and the bathwater approach? It is redundant to keep repeating that there are very valid concerns expressed by those who have experienced the very worst of these things and you would make light of it ...

Personally I feel with this response that I don't fit in here, why? because I don't go along to get along my responses in my opinion are not nearly as bad as some I have personally witnessed here by far especially lately some I have read have been down right rude and I am really shocked they were not deleted.

If you feel that I am out of place with my personal opinions are as you said "sarcasm" please let me know, I would not want to be anywhere were I am not welcomed, I have never in my "Christian" non perfect life ever went along to get along with any majority, and I have received many PM's from other Brothers and Sisters that this would be happening to me soon if I did not stop, because I do not go along to get along but everyone that did PM me said to hold my ground that they liked the way I presented things I was honest and to the point. Please let me know if I am not wanted here and I will be happy to take my "sarcasm" as you put it somewhere else.

Could you please explain what you mean by my ideals of nobody's perfect, I only know of one perfect person and thats Jesus Christ, are you saying there is someone else thats perfect? or just what are you saying you lost me here, sorry I don't understand.

Mike, I am sorry but I do feel like you are picking on me because I have seen a lot worse sarcasm and as I said down right rude remarks that I have never seen you scold anyone like this, and also I feel a PM would have been more Christian like instead of letting the whole world know that you feel I am acting stupid here. I personally also feel it's not just you alone that caused me to get ripped here, but all I can say is I am sorry and please forgive me thats all I have to offer.

My remarks were not at all to make light of anyone or anything it's ok to slam a Pastor here and talk down right trashy about him but it not ok to offer up a little joke in response, if you decide to let me stay I will try my best to do better, but as I said I am sort of the rebel for Christ like person
or maybe someone that takes up for the folks that are not here to defend themselves, that some slam . I really feel it's wrong to slam Pastors or etc. if that Pastor is not here to defend Himself or Herself but it's your place so we have to go by your rules, and I don't mind going by your rules I wished everyone would.

Mike we all promote our own agendas here and our own beliefs some more than others and I have known you long enough to kind of know yours. I know you don't like my Pastor Joel Osteen, you have even started threads about him and I let that go with some minimal responses even thought it hurt my feelings I did not say much because I did not want getting you all excited at me I just tried to keep the peace, I have said it many times here "UNTIL " we stop all the Pastor bashing because thats all it is, more of us will have to go through what I am having to deal with right now.
It's sad that it seems like the only righteous Pastors are the ones that there sermons are listed here or the ones promoted here and we had better not say a word about them or we will be in trouble. I have seen this stuff in action and I know this is true. If standing up for what I believe and saying whats on my mind makes you mad at me and you ban me well at least I got it all out but I will say we "all" here have some growing to do.

Under Construction,
Mr. Bill

Brother ...

For a rebel you sure are sensitive ;-)

Could you please explain what you mean by my ideals of nobody's perfect, I only know of one perfect person and thats Jesus Christ, are you saying there is someone else thats perfect? or just what are you saying you lost me here, sorry I don't understand.

Just something that you keep repeating when others are pointing out problems with what is being taught by certain ministries. Even here Bill the matter of defending is curious. It is unfortunate that PM's are being used in this fashion as it just fosters a sectarian spirit and creates even more confusion, but that you would appeal to them for justification ... Aren't we in the realm of [i]comparing ourselves by ourselves[/i]?

No brother, none of this has anything to do with your being wanted here or not or going along to get along or any other foolish notion that might be insinuated by whomever.

There is nothing to hide and this need not be taken so much to heart as personal effrontery.

Well I am basically done with all I have to say, regardless of what you might believe or what you want to call it, talking about anyone rather it be a Pastor or whoever if they are not here to defend themselves in my opinion is not very Christian like period. Trust me if I were on another forum and someone was talking about you, I would take up for you and tell them the same that's it rude to talk about Mike because he is not here to defend himself it's wrong and not very Christian like. It's almost like being in court and the defendant not even being able to tell their side of the story and the jury just says guilty. Also I do not ask nor condone nor promote folks to PM me I would hope you would not find me to blame for that, and I sure don't use others personal opinions to justify anything I believe, I do a good enough job of it myself if not you and I would not even be having this discussion, anyway I will try my best to do better but it's just the way God built me it's my personality and if you really knew me personally you would have never called me out in front of the world. :-)

oh brother ... brother!

The things that are being discussed are those things being taught and we are to test them. The things we discuss here are likewise 'testable' why should we go behind closed doors to address that which is done publicly? That isn't a dig or a barb or an accusation, in fact, that it is thought so is where we get thrust into these confusions in the first place. It's just not [i]that[/i] personal and it doesn't need to be made that way.

Mike we all promote our own agendas here and our own beliefs some more than others and I have known you long enough to kind of know yours. I know you don't like my Pastor Joel Osteen, you have even started threads about him and I let that go with some minimal responses even thought it hurt my feelings I did not say much because I did not want getting you all excited at me I just tried to keep the peace, I have said it many times here "UNTIL " we stop all the Pastor bashing because thats all it is, more of us will have to go through what I am having to deal with right now.
It's sad that it seems like the only righteous Pastors are the ones that there sermons are listed here or the ones promoted here and we had better not say a word about them or we will be in trouble. I have seen this stuff in action and I know this is true. If standing up for what I believe and saying whats on my mind makes you mad at me and you ban me well at least I got it all out but I will say we "all" here have some growing to do.

Did you add this in? I must have missed it ... Bill, please, I am not coming down on you as you suppose ... I don't recall starting any such threads or postings but have certainly made comments in them. Again, your posture is to defend the man and disregard the teaching. I am probably more weary of hearing yet another post in his regard than you are, it's gotten old an tediously tired. But that doesn't change the matter of what is being taught, nor does the idea of pushing everything off to 'pastor bashing' or 'nobodies perfect' resolve anything either. You are making the point for me that I tried to make earlier. Sarcasm or personal effrontery, defending a man over what he is teaching ... Even here, in this thread, what is at issue? Is it not what is being taught that is the issue? I think the majority get your point when things start getting out of hand. I also must wonder if you are getting the point however.

dear clint. I would like to recommend an exegesis of the book of Job by the 17th C mystic Mme Guyon. The Bible can, of course be taken on many levels, and while accurate and historic, it is after all, a spiritual journey.

Changing our dyslexic state of spiritual misunderstanding is of the utmost importance, if we are to truly grasp the power of the gospel message that Jesus left for us. There must be a paradigm shift . The trouble of course is, one does not know that one is suffering from the condition until one has been redeemed from it.

changed4ever

changed4ever:

Can you tell me what it is I should be looking for in Mme J. Guyon's teaching on Job? And could you elaborate just a little on "our dyslexic state of spiritual misunderstanding". Not at all disputing the dyslexia :-) , just need some clarification to see where you are coming from or where you are going.

Thanks...

Mike B.

I reread your comments on this thread as well as all the others... I believe some of the very valid points brought up here (especially the dialouge between you and Dian) regarding faith could be explored as a stand alone thread minus any reference to a particular ministry, and I believe it might be quite profitable for all especially if our pastor and Greek scholar in residence Brother Ron would give us a little more input that does not have to referenced to someone's ministry but strictly to the Biblical subject... I don't know if there has already been a thread of this sort...

Certainly not looking for debate and argument but clarity, especially in view of the fact that "faith" has been so redefined in so many areas.

Clint

One more thought that I believe that needs to be articulated, and that is knowing God in His righteous judgments… the degree of suffering, such as was witnessed during the holocaust, and no doubt will be witnessed again… What will happen to “faith” during those scenes when instead of healing and deliverance and raising the dead, the dead are stacked like so much cord-wood and the mourning has passed beyond the point of tears? Will the kind of preaching/teaching that emphasizes raising the dead and healing the sick and faith from that very narrow perspective of faith help during those times of crisis that are so frequently referred to in the Psalms where God seems to be silent and the heavens seem to be brass, because of the abounding sin… ??

Clint. This is good. Have you ever listened to any of Art Katz' teachings? Art wrote a book called, [u]The Holocaust: Where Was God?[/u] It really made me think. I do want to have the kind of faith that can endure the suffering to come, because I do believe there are dark times ahead. I also believe that God worked miracles to spare the lives of some during the Holocaust. There's so much to think about. I just want to be certain that I believe God in [i]every[/i] situation. It's faith which pleases God and it's faith which glorifies God. Bless you, Brother. Your posts are sweet. Love, Dian.

Have you ever listened to any of Art Katz' teachings? Art wrote a book called, The Holocaust: Where Was God?

Thank you Dian.

Yes I have listened to a few of Art Katz' teachings over the course of the last 6 months or so, and was pleasantly surprised to find perfect agreement in regard to what I believe Jesus taught regarding tribulation, and to be challenged by his call for authenticity among those who aspire to be "full gospel". I have not read the book you referred to, but I will try to get it.

I just listened to a message by Brother Keith Daniels: "Every Branch in Me That Beareth Fruit" [http://downloads1.revivalgodsway.com/1/SID1544.mp3] that was such a blessing to me, particularly at this time, and it articulates so much regarding this walk of faith without being on "faith" per se, and in fact addresses so many of the things being discussed in a couple of other threads regarding "holiness".

I still would love to see a thread on this subject of "faith" explored for the edification of all.

I thank God for finding this site, not just for all the godly messages, but also for so many on these forums that seem to have a sincere hunger and thirst for truth and righteousness.

Clint

I had A HUGE MOUNTAIN of sin.

I have heard of Andrew Wommack, and would like to give my opinion of the man and his ministry. I do not often join in any kind of discussion that involves a particular individual, but I will make an exception in this case.

About 15 years ago someone gave my wife and I a couple of teaching tapes from Andrew Wommack. At that time I rejected them, not because of what they contained as I had not heard them yet, but rather because he was not someone who was "one of us" if you know what I mean. I did not know him and had never heard of him, so I automatically assumed there must be something not right about him and cautioned my wife against listening. At the time he was not on TV and ran his Bible College out of one room in an old police station building near Manitou Springs, CO.

Eventually as my wife began to listen I overheard the tapes and realized that this man was a very anointed teacher who was teaching a very Biblical doctrine. I began listening as well, and the result was one of the greatest periods of spiritual growth I have ever experienced. We met a couple who worked for Andrew's ministry and spend a few days with them several times on trips to CO. We toured the ministry and met Andrew and Jamie. We have supported his ministry since that time financially because we have seen the fruit and know it is good ground in which to sow.

As to the carte blanche statement that he is "one of those health, wealth, prosperity preachers", I can say this is not an accurate statement. You may not know this, but when he started out in the ministry God told him to give teaching materials away for free. We have shoe boxes full of old cassette tapes that we listened to and we were never charged for one of them. He does charge for teaching sets in fancy boxes with colorful labels, but he would send anyone three free cassettes a week who would call in and request them. His teachings on money and giving are well balanced and Biblical.

The statement was made that healing is not in the atonement. I would encourage anyone to study the atonement in depth. Healing is definitely there. I would encourage an in depth study of Isaiah chapter 53 along with the commentary on this chapter by the writers of the NT including Jesus Himself. It is powerful.

Is Andrew Wommack perfect? Does he have all of his doctrine figured out so that he will never be in error? Rhetorical questions. Of course not. But then again, neither do I nor any one else for that matter.

But I would strongly recommend Andrew's ministry to anyone who asks.

John 8:31

it is the truth that sets free not our opinion of it.

I listened to AW for years. He came across as humble and a great teacher. But as i grew in christ i realised that his work is very Word Of Faith. WOF is a brand of religion i have unsubscribed to as i find it to be very erroneous and misleading, and possibly damanble. I had a former manupulative bible study teacher who loved his work and when we opened the bible examine his doctrine i got the usually hostility you get when one who is blind is confronted with the truth (i must admit i was the most zealous defenders of this heresy when i was blinded myself). I was told dont "throw out the baby with the bath water", "dont spit out the meat with the bone". The defense was we all have errors. But i believe we may be mistaken for a little while but if we have the spirit of truth we will eventually end up with right doctrine. Jesus warned about the leaven of the pharasis i personally think once error has been identified by scripture we would me wise to mark and avoid the proponents of such fallacy. We can the be in a position to pray for AW. False teaching is false teaching. AW seems a nice kinda guy but even the devil can transform himself into an angel of light. covenant theology is the central focus point of most of what he teaches.

A shadow is formed when light is obscured by darkness. A select few were chosen to live under that shadow,but the light of men has come and the invitation is to all to live in the light.

AW is intent on subtly bringing people back into bondange of the law.

So personally while i really like him as a person. I cant trust a word he says so i dont listen to him.

i agree with you brother, Andrew Wommack is a very anointed teacher of the Word, and like you since listening to him, i have grown spirtually like no other time.
I too would strongly recommend Andrew Wommack's minstry to anyone who asks, and also i would say the same, is he perfect? is any minister? but i believe as AW would say himself, he has left but hasn't arrived yet.( but one of the best teachers of the Word of God i have heard.)
ellie from england

I have been a Christian for 44 years, if my subtraction is correct and have received insight and good Bible teaching from many, many different teachers who are brothers and sisters in Christ. A few of the male teachers/preachers were starting with Billy Graham (since as a young Christian he was the most widely heard), Charles Stanley, Andrian Rogers, Lloyd Ogilvie, Chuck Swindol, many other well known teacher/preachers and many unknown to most, but good teachers and preachers on a local level. I have also been blessed by teaching about who we are in Christ from Norman Grubb, Bill Volkman, Watchman Nee, Torrey, now Joseph Prince and also Andrew Wommack. Andrew has no marks of a cult leader, is not centering the ministry about himself but trying to get the rest of the body of Christ to recognize who we are in Christ and who we are not just in our human flesh selves. He offers all of his teachings free of charge on the internet and free of charge if you get one on CD and send it back for another, in case you are unable to contribute. That is VERY rare. Also he is very down to earth and doesn't put on spiritual airs. You know right up front what he is teaching because all of it is right on the internet for anyone to listen to. He came from a Baptist upbringing and his father was a deacon. He has been raised in the same kind of background as I have. I believe that our denomination has been excellent it presenting the gospel of Christ in how to be saved but has left off much of what was paid for by Christ on the Cross. This gap has partially been filled in by Andrew Wommack's teaching (for me at least). I have come to the conclusion that if anyone can point to any time that Christ told anyone who came to Him for healing that He would not heal them because He belived God could use them better sick, then I would agree that God wants some believers to be sick. Since there is no place that Christ did that, then I agree that salvation includes healing.

Paul's thorn in the flesh does not specify illness. He was a completely unique person as well. No one that I know of had the abundance of revelation given them to the church since Paul.

I think the ones who have a tendency to lump Andrew in by saying "oh he is a health and wealth preacher" because they may have watched him once or twice and taken a few statements out of context, doesn't mean that he spends most of his time on health and wealth. I believe he has a more balanced teaching and does not teach condemnation for those in Christ Jesus but rightly teaches that we are actually new creatures and that we are now vessels of the Spirit of God.
Do I agree with every single word out of his mouth. Probably not, but then I can't say I agree with everything I have heard Billy Graham say or any other teacher since all teachers are human beings. Scripture is the final authority.
I think we place too much emphasis on things like who we accept teaching from and who we don't. We need to study ourselves and ask the Holy Spirit who is indwelling believers to teach us and make sure we are on track. If you are looking for a perfect human teacher, you will never find one. We can pick and pick, if we are so inclined and find fault or imperfection in anyone, and I do mean anyone who is human.

I believe that imperfection is to remind us to put our trust in Christ, not in men and that we are not perfect outwardly but we have been imputed righteousness and we believe by faith that God is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Just as my Christian life has had its pitfalls and its learning through failure, every other Christian will go through the same thing, if they are honest about it. That is why we need Grace. From that grace we can grow and learn and be forgiven and forgive and give grace to others.

I have been greatly encouraged by Andrew's biblically based teaching. The main things, the core things are in complete agreement with scripture, some other things I may not be in complete agreement with. However, he is my brother in Christ and I appreciate how the Lord is using him, to touch many lives for Christ and to encourage others to walk in faith.
Annie920