Christian fiction

Francine Rivers writes (on her website):

["Are you going to be a “Christian writer” or a Christian who writes?
What’s the difference? A Christian who writes may weave Christian principles into the story, but the work can stand when those elements are removed. A Christian writer is called to present a story that is all about Jesus. The Lord is the foundation, the structure, and Scripture has everything to do with the creation and development of the characters in the story. Jesus is central to the theme. If you remove Jesus and Biblical principles from the novel, it collapses."]

Francine Rivers's trilogy "The Mark of the Lion" portrays Christians in First Century Rome as Christians were meant to be -- actually obeying God and following the truths Jesus left for all of us. A very encouraging and entertaining story that I would recommend to all who like fiction and who love God and honor those who actually do the will of God in action and sometimes to the death rather than just talk the talk. Francine Rivers is a Christian Writer, not just a Christian who writes.

One man who was both a Christian writer and a Christian who writes is George MacDonald (1828-1905). He is a man who understood that one walks with Christ, one lives for God and obeys God, and does not live life and the life more abundant through mere doctrines. George MacDonald once said that he would rather be with someone who walks in the light though he have the doctrines of demons than a man who can recite Scripture by heart but walks in the darkness.

George MacDonald's Christian novels, and there are many, are worth reading for the light that emanates from them and for the truth of authentic Christianity that plays out in the stories of men, women, and children who either live lives imbued with the Holy Spirit or who seek God as we often do or did, letting the self interfere at every step of the way.

There is much of the Christian life to be found in the fiction of George MacDonald. In my own Christian walk he has been and is still, stronger than ever, an inspiration and guide.

George MacDonalds "Discovering the character of God" and "Knowing the heart of God" are the books that led me and mentored me when I came to the point that I knew that there must be something I was missing. I searched, and read and I could not find, till God sent me these books to read. I suppose that I spent five years reading and praying for light. I read the early church fathers and so many things and could not find "The missing link" Till I found these books. I would recommend them to all who feel"there must be something more".

There is much of the Christian life to be found in the fiction of George MacDonald. In my own Christian walk he has been and is still, stronger than ever, an inspiration and guide.

I'd be careful with his books, he was a universalist. I don't know were the quotes are right now, but in an article John Piper showed that he was a universalist.

Jordan

HomeFree89 wrote:

There is much of the Christian life to be found in the fiction of George MacDonald. In my own Christian walk he has been and is still, stronger than ever, an inspiration and guide.

I'd be careful with his books, he was a universalist. I don't know were the quotes are right now, but in an article John Piper showed that he was a universalist.

Jordan

And John Piper is an extreme Calvinist who also is a little heavy on reformed theology. :-D

Ben,

I also started reading a biography about McDonald and it said that he was a universalist, so it's not just John Piper.

Obviously, we aren't going to agree with everyone on everything, I was just saying be careful.

Jordan

There are those people who discount the value of fiction. And if this is a matter of conscience, I suggest you listen to it. As for me, when I was a young girl I was heavily influenced by Bernard Palmers' Danny Orlis books. I also have heard of a person coming to the LORD by reading Grace Livingston Hill's books!

Presently, I no longer read fiction for lack of time because there are so many other works that beg to be read. But there should be great care exercised in the choice of fiction.

When my daughter was a teen I read some of the books she was bringing home. They were printed by Zondervan and when I was a teen, they published clean books. Well, I was shocked when I read these books and told her to quit, do not ever read any more from this series. (These books were love stories where the males treated the women roughly.....I told her a godly man will not treat a lady this way. Fortunately, she understood.)

My opinion....
ginnyrose

HomeFree89 wrote:
Ben,

I also started reading a biography about McDonald and it said that he was a universalist, so it's not just John Piper.

Obviously, we aren't going to agree with everyone on everything, I was just saying be careful.

Jordan

I wasn't disagreeing that McDonald is a Universalist. I was simply stating who John Piper is. ;-)

I am not a universalist and never was. What I like about George MacDonald is that he believed in utter surrender to God and complete obedience. His universalism was a result of his being raised in a Scotland that was at the time hyper-Calvinistic and all about Predestination of the "you can't do a thing about it but you are damned to hell no matter what" variety.

I can't stand the kind of universalism that is an excuse for debauchery and sin, and that is NOT the kind of universalism MacDonald preached.
Anyway, George MacDonald appeals to all Christians, liberals and conservatives, baby Christians and mature Christians.

It was his personal life, dedicated to actually living the spirit rather than the letter. If anything, MacDonald is harder, harsher on anyone who slacks off in their Christian walk. He is a man who gave it all to God. And he was one of the few who bemoaned the fact that the Victorians had feminized Christ, made a bearded lady out of Jesus Christ. He scorned the effeminization of Jesus as the meek and mild Breck girl of the modern world.

I can't stand the kind of universalism that is an excuse for debauchery and sin, and that is NOT the kind of universalism MacDonald preached.

What kind of universalism is Biblical? Or what kind can you "stand?"

Maybe you are defining universalism differently than I do, but the Bible doesn't teach that everyone will be "saved."

EDIT: I do understand you are not a universalist, but I'm just wondering your thoughts.

I am not a universalist and never was.

Universalism is not biblical. This has always been a sticking point with me and George MacDonald. But, George MacDonald will tell you that not only do you have to be a slave of God but that you will pay to the last farthing for your sins. I conjecture that MacDonald and others like him were "reactionaries" to the doctrinal crunch that excluded so many people from coming to Christ by forcing the "doctrines of men" on people and by teaching nought but the letter of the law and not the spirit.

I am not defending, nor will ever defend universalism and I have the forum battle scars to prove it, scars gained from a George MacDonald forum I used to belong to, where I made a complete ass of myself many times over and where I spilled so much vitriol that you could have etched an entire new president on Mount Rushmore from the spittle I frothed forth.

I will say that God's ways are not our ways and that we do "see through a glass darkly," and therefore we are not apprised of all the facts of the here and now nor of the hereafter. The Bible, as an orthodox monk-theologian once said "is sufficient for all things." God gave us the Bible as a guide, a sufficient guide to live out our lives walking in the light. If the purpose of the Christian life is to walk in the light, then I will state, uncategorically, that the writings (the fiction and the unspoken sermons) of George MacDonald certainly and absolutely help me walk in the light, to see a bit more clearly through that dark glass, to understand what it truly is to be guided by the Holy Spirit in a completely experiential (physical/mental) way and to go farther on the straight and narrow path of killing the Self. As George MacDonald, throughout his writings, says, in so many words, the Church's man-made doctrines build up the Self, make us less than God wants us to be -- in effect, putting a damper on the Holy Spirit in our lives.

If William Law is, as I assume, one of George MacDonald's chief influences, then it cannot be that George MacDonald's universalism is that kind of universalism which is despicable, which is an excuse for sin, which is an excuse for not evangelizing, which is the road to death in death. I apologize for spewing forth such a large amount of bilgewater but I am sometimes aware that the time is short, that men's appetites are for the "old wine" rather than the New, and that I myself am so far from killing all that is in me of the flesh and the world and the devil that I realize...suddenly...that it is not "I" who can do a damn thing about all this but only God, through His Son, Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

I assure you that that all of George MacDonald's Christian romance novels are fit for any Christian, no matter what age. There are two novels MacDonald wrote, one at the beginning of his writing career - Phantastes - and one near the end - Lillith. These I would not recommend to the baby Christian, for they are more fantasies than openly Christian novels.

I also assure you that George MacDonald does not sneak in postmodernist or relativistic hobgoblins into his fiction. MacDonald's fiction speaks to the Christian heart.

I am seeing alot of criticsm about George MacDonald that I think is probably from people that have never read him. What a shame that people who call themselves christians would jump on the defiling bandwagon! How many of us hold thoughts of God that are wrong and dishonoring to God and do not even know it. We should remember that we are all but dust and maybe look into things before we speak.
Lately I have seen a trend in the christian community to condemn out of hand based on someones opinion. Now we all hold different thoughts and doctrines, and as the scripture tells us God is able to make our brother or sister stand. In the works of the flesh listed in Gal 5 arguements and divisions are listed. has anyone ever thought that the things we divide over might be overlooked and that love might cover our differences?
Look around you and see, all the different denominations and mourn the lost unity of christians. If we were one the world would be able to see Christ, if we would look up at Him we would be humble and on the straight way. Paul said that when we compare ourselves among ourselves we are not wise. Now why would he say that? It is because when we look sideways we can build ourselves up in pride, after all "I". We become proud when we look at others and do not compare ourselves to Christ.
Now George MacDonald probably held to some things that you do not agree with, But have you ever read anything he wrote? and if not are you not ashamed to defile a child of God?

We do have the right to discern and we do have the command to study to show ourselves approved unto God. But we also have the command to bear each others burdens, to love, for love covers a multitude of sins. So if you disapprove of what you have heard of someone, maybe you should look into it... If you wish to give your brother George a fair hearing I will give you a title of a book that is fiction and a really good read.Try "The Curates Awakening" It is a really good story about a man who had been a pastor for years without really knowing Christ at all and his coming to a knowledge of God. A saving knowledge that changes his whole life.

In all his books he shines forth true life in Christ. He shows through the lives of the characters true integrity, purity and the walk we will all come to if we are truly born again.

Please remember that we are to do unto others as we would be done by. So if you would like to be judged without a fair hearing then do not give this lovely christian man one. But if you desire mercy then show it to your brother, at least read before you condemn.

Lightwalker,

I have read lots of MacDonald's fiction and some of his sermons and have seen some problems with his books.

It has been a while so I can't tell you the issues right now, but there are some problems with his theology.

Jordan

There was a man, a true Christian man, born in the Year of Our Lord 1824 and meeting his Maker in the year 1905. He was a Scottish preacher and writer whose words, whose "theology," shocked and disappointed those who were (and are to this day still) mired in the doctrines of men. George MacDonald was this man and he gifted the world with his life and his writing. He proposed and described, in his writing, an authentic obedient Christianity, one in which the Christian actually does what the words of God in Scripture tell him to do. He believed in complete obedience to God and God's Commandments and understood that God wants us to strive with all our being for perfection, knowing that we cannot become perfect in God without the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, yet always wanting us to move towards holiness with every fiber of our being.

George MacDonald can be likened to the Good Samaritan. Did the Good Samaritan do right in the eyes of the Lord. Yes. Did the Good Samaritan have problems with his theoloy? To the Jews, of course he did. To Christians of today the theology of the Good Samaritan is unacceptable and a stench in their doctrinal nostrils.

George MacDonald is the man who will immediately come to the aid of the beaten, robbed victim. MacDonald is the man who does not have to think whether or not it is "useful" or "problematic" or "theologically correct" to help the victim. He just obeys God and does what any man or woman of God is expected to do. George MacDonald is the Good Samaritan writ large.

I know that many would like to "correct" George MacDonald's theology. Now, this would be a useless task, a waste of time, for the person seeking to "fix" MacDonald's religion would end up astounded (astonied?) to find himself finally not only knowing God but also knowing the character and heart of God as much as humanly possible. That man or woman who sought to clean up George MacDonald's theology would find, actually, that there is no theology to clean up. At the core of George MacDonald is no theology, only a burning desire and zeal to do the things of God, to obey God, to give all to God.

Do we prefer a man or woman who mouths Scripture perfectly, who has the "correct" theology, who has a said faith, an outward show of faith, but that does evil at every turn through lies, gossip, haughtiness, coarse jesting, a completely unearned sense of superiority, and an endless tearing of the sacred? I think we often do. I am guilty of all of the above. Yet, if I wanted to I could hammer out a "perfect theology," one that would tickle the hearts and minds of Christian men and women, and then still continue to do evil things, still be mired in sin in my actions and thoughts while at the same time presenting to the world a perfect theology. It is easy to construct a theology, a biblically sound theology, and then go about in one's life being a little demon. It is terribly difficult to live the perfect holy life that God demands we live. Of course, it is actually impossible for us to live that perfect holy life without Jesus as Lord and the Holy Spirit within in complete control. Our Self, our "I," can do nothing. Only God can work on us, in us, and through us.

George MacDonald did not have a perfect theology, did not care to have one, did not care for the doctrines of men. But, he did lead a life guided and controlled by the Holy Spirit. He exemplified what it means to say "The letter killeth but the Spirit lives."

1.MANY RELIGIOUS TEACHERS have not taught Christ, but taught about Christ. More eager after credible theory than after doing the truth, they have speculated in a condition of heart in which it was impossible they could understand. They have presumed to explain a Christ whom years and years of obedience could alone have made them able to comprehend.

2.TO FOLLOW JESUS is to be learning of him, to think his thoughts, to use his judgments, to see things as he sees them, to feel things as he feels them, to be of the same heart, soul, and mind, as he is.

3.TO UNDERSTAND the words of our Lord is the business of life. For it is the main road to the understanding of the Word himself.

4.THE LORD KNOWS what men need; they know only what they want. They want happiness without the cost. They want ease. He knows they need purity.

5.WHEN A MAN OR WOMAN truly and perfectly says with Jesus, and as Jesus said it, "Thy will be done," he closes the everlasting life-circle. The life of the Father and the Son flow through him; he is part of the divine organism. Then is the prayer of the Lord in him fulfilled.

5.EVERYWHERE IS GOD. The earth underneath us is his hand upholding us; the waters are in the hollow of it. Every spring-fountain of gladness about us is his making and his delight. He tends us and cares for us; he is close to us, breathing into our nostrils the breath of life, and breathing into our spirit thoughts that make us look up and recognize the love and care around us.

6.FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST is to learn his ways by going and doing them, not trying to understand them first, or doing anything else whatever with them first than obeying them.

7.THE FAITH REQUIRED OF US is faith in a person, and not in the truest of statements concerning anything, even concerning him.

8.IF ANYONE is desirous of spreading the truth, let him apply himself to the doing of it. Not obeying the truth, he is doubly a liar who pretends to preach it.

9.FAITH, in its simplest, truest, mightiest form, is-to do God's will in the one thing revealing itself at the moment as duty. The faith that works miracles is an inferior faith to this-and not what the old theologians call a saving faith.

10.IT WAS NOT for our understanding, but our will, that Christ came.

11.HE WHO DOES that which he sees, shall understand. He who is set upon understanding rather than doing, shall go on stumbling and mistaking and speaking foolishness.

12.OUR BUSINESS is not to think correctly, but to live truly. Then first will there be a possibility of our thinking correctly.

More quotes from George MacDonald:

1.HE WHO DOES that which he sees, shall understand. He who is set upon understanding rather than doing, shall go on stumbling and mistaking and speaking foolishness.

2.THOSE WHO LIVE as Jesus lived-by obedience to the Father- have a share in their own making.

3.OUR BUSINESS is not to think correctly, but to live truly. Then first will there be a possibility of our thinking correctly.

4.FAITH IS OBEDIENCE; theory, I know not what.

5.TO PUT OFF OBEYING him until we find a credible theory concerning him is to set aside the medicine we know it our duty to drink for the study of the various schools of therapy.

6.THE TRUE DISCIPLE shall always know what he ought to do, though not necessarily what another ought to do.

7.NO TEACHER should strive to make others think as he thinks, but to lead them to the living Truth, to the Master himself,of whom alone they can learn anything, who will make them in themselves know what is true by the very seeing of it.

8.TO HIM WHO OBEYS, and thus opens the doors of his heart to receive the eternal gift, God gives the Spirit of his Son, the Spirit of himself.

9.IN PROPORTION TO OUR CARE about our own well-being is our capacity diminished to understand and welcome the care of the Father.

10.DISTRUST IS ATHEISM and the barrier to all growth.

11.YEARS ARE CHRIST'S NAPKINS to wipe off the sin.

12.THEORY MAY SPRING FROM LIFE, but never life from theory.

13.THERE IS NO SALVATION in correct opinions, neither is there damnation in wrong opinions.

14.THE PATH ACROSS THE GULF that divides right from wrong is not the fire, but repentance.

There are so many more....May they be a blessing to those with eyes to see...

Fact: MacDonald was a universalist.
Fact: Universalism is heresy.

Posters said "MacDonald was a universalist". Posters warned that universalism is heresy. If you don't believe universalism is heresy- that is where the problem lies- not their comment on MacDonald.

In your zeal for this man's writings, do not try and destroy your brothers and sisters. Give them the same courtesy you wanted them to give MacDonald.

If you look closely, no defiling, judging, or slandering took place here. Facts were stated.

May God help us to be loving to one another, and react to one another as becomes the gospel.

I believe the only doctrines taught by the early church were the birth, life, death resurection of Christ, baptism, laying on of hands, eternal judgement.
Heresy is defined by Paul as divisions that people use to show who are approved. 1 cor 11:18-19[ OUR DOCTRINES are right, theirs are wrong]
"For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be manifest among you."
Now it seems to me that you are saying that if anyone reads this mans work they shall be damned. Maybe I am reading this wrong? George MacDonald believed in hell and the lake of fire with all of his heart. His message was that all men need to repent and come to a oneness with God.[Through obedience] That the end of their creation was a oneness, conformity to our Lord. If anything his teaching is harder than the teaching of todays church, which leaves room for the flesh and makes excuse for sin.However George MacDonald does not need defence from me or anyone. I know that the univeraslism of today is a teaching that all will be saved regardless of their actions, that is not the teaching of George. If you had read what he taught you would know this.But I want you to know that I would never approve anyone who would make Gods true children stumble. George belived that God would not be defeated in the end. That if a man did not believe to the saving of the soul, that he or she would burn in the fire of God. That eons of time might pass till they would be purified from sin. But that in the end they would be clean. That the charater of God is such that He could not create beings that He could not save. That for very love He would burn them for eternity if necessary, that His mercy endures forever. That the gospel is an everlasting gospel. However you would have to dig very deep to find any of this at all in his writings. George never pushes his ideas or teaches doctrines. I would never hesitate to point others to him as he is the most godly man I have read.{ my opinion} He knew the character of God and loved him with all of his life. Anyway I will quit here, I just thought that what you wrote deserved an answer... And by the way I do not believe that the kind of universalism that George MacDonald believed is heresy at all. We all have opinions and we will all stand or fall before God. He is our judge and I can't think of anyones hands I would rather be in, for only God knows the heart and none is as loving or as mericful as he... As David said;
"And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies [are] great: and let me not fall into the hand of man."

I was thinking about this thread yesaterday and so desired to share about this discussion I had with myself! Now I am not senile.....yet! :-P

I got to thinking about the fiction I enjoyed 25+ years ago. These books are more for entertainment then anything else. Here are a few authors I loved:

Lloyd C. Douglas. I read most, if not all of his books. He has two I call my favorites: "The Robe" and "Home for Christmas". "The Home for Christmas" is a fun book to read, not very long. I did not like this book "Magnificent Obsession" when I read it 30 years ago...do not know what I would think of it now if I would read it.

Lew Wallace: "Ben Hur" is a good read.

Thomas B. Costain: similar to L.C. Douglas, he also wrote historical fiction. I would guess these historical fiction books took liberties with facts to fit the story, but they are a fun to read.

Some like Harold Bell Wright. For the most part they are a good read but I do not like it when the main character plays fast and loose with a life: the villian will be killed with no conscience and the body disposed of discretly. And the hero goes on to live happily ever after! And to think HBW was a preacher!

Today these books can be purchased on ebay at rock bottom prices except for Harold Bell Wrights - some fetch high prices.

Have fun!

ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:
I was thinking about this thread yesaterday and so desired to share about this discussion I had with myself! Now I am not senile.....yet! :-P

I got to thinking about the fiction I enjoyed 25+ years ago. These books are more for entertainment then anything else. Here are a few authors I loved:

Lloyd C. Douglas. I read most, if not all of his books. He has two I call my favorites: "The Robe" and "Home for Christmas". "The Home for Christmas" is a fun book to read, not very long. I did not like this book "Magnificent Obsession" when I read it 30 years ago...do not know what I would think of it now if I would read it.

Lew Wallace: "Ben Hur" is a good read.

Thomas B. Costain: similar to L.C. Douglas, he also wrote historical fiction. I would guess these historical fiction books took liberties with facts to fit the story, but they are a fun to read.

Some like Harold Bell Wright. For the most part they are a good read but I do not like it when the main character plays fast and loose with a life: the villian will be killed with no conscience and the body disposed of discretly. And the hero goes on to live happily ever after! And to think HBW was a preacher!

Today these books can be purchased on ebay at rock bottom prices except for Harold Bell Wrights - some fetch high prices.

Have fun!

ginnyrose

Ben-Hur is awesome! I'm reading it right now for the first time and I'm really enjoying it.

Jordan

If I go up the steps of the Capitol Building in Washington, DC, to the podium where presidents are sworn in every 4 years and place my hand on a Bible and say that "I will perform all the offices of the president of the United States, so help me GOD" -- does that mean I am the President of the United States? Because I have mouthed the words and have the correct "doctrine" am I now the president of the United States? This is what Christians do when they verbally assent to Jesus' Lordship over their lives yet continue to lie like dogs, dissemble like it's going out of style, go off the deep end in unrighteous anger, crap all over their neighbor, and puff themselves up with the pride of life, the lust of the eyes, and the spirit of the world.

If I, like that indolent lad in a certain parable, SAY that I am going to go out into the field and work yet lay on my lazy buttocks and do nothing, am I a "saved" lad? Meaning: If I say something such as "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior" and then go on to believe what the world says, do nothing to obey what God tells us in the Scriptures, and resume my previous sinful life, am I saved? I am only "saved" in my own mind, have fooled myself and am lying to myself, because I have spouted out a doctrine of the church and am not doing what God tells me to do - Obey Him.

If I mouth the correct doctrines yet live the life of a devil, will I be accepted by many Christians. Certainly!

On the contrary, if I subscribe to wrong doctrines, such as universalism, hyper-Calvinist predestination, annihilationism, liberation theology, snake handling, or engage in the antics of the liberal or emergent church, yet do the will of God, actually obey God's commandments and really truly "work out my salvation" am I saved? Many Christians sit in their churches and "assent" to the false doctines of their church yet they are holy despite those doctrines (never because of those doctrines).

According to many Christians, I am not saved because I "hold the wrong doctrines or do not subscribe to the particular local doctrines of their specific church."

Preachers and pastors in England, Scotland, Wales, America, and Italy saw a certain man, a man named George MacDonald, and realized they were in the presence of holiness. They saw a man that actually LIVED the life of a slave of God, a servant of God, a Child and Man of God. They, no matter how much they disagreed with MacDonald's universalism, saw something in him that they themselves did not have - a love of God and a zeal for God that very few people have. In other words, George MacDonald was a man filled with the Holy Spirit. True, he lectured in a Unitarian church once or twice, but he made it an absolute condition that if he lectured in a Unitarian church he would propound the Holy Trinity, would speak of the truth and reality of the Holy Trinity.

Condemning men and women such as C.S. Lewis, Sigrid Undset, J.R.R. Tolkien, Evelyn Waugh, Dorothy Sayers, G.K. Chesterton, Walker Percy, and other Christian writers because they hold views antithetical to one's doctrinal beliefs is something that is up to each individual. I myself have condemned, in the past, such "Christian writers" as Madeleine L'Engle, Charles Williams, William Lawhead, and Walker Percy. So, I am guilty of yelling "Heretic!" at times and do not judge harshly anyone that does. Often, it was from ignorance that I condemned people to hell for their heresies. At other times, it was the evil still within me that made me rail and rant against various Christians. Still, today, I cannot stomach Madeleine L'Engle because she seems, to me, to be espousing syncretism and an infected form of ecumenicalism. I used to get angry at George MacDonald for his "universalism" until I recently understood more about it and then realized that for George MacDonald there is no hell hot enough for sinners and that every last sinner will be scorched and pay the last farthing for his sins.

My question to you is this: If I subscribe to a statement that says "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior" and yet I do nothing that God says, do not obey the commandments, do not become a slave, a servant, a child of God in all my actions and deeds, in all aspects of my life, and do not take up the Cross that Jesus' says we must take up, am I a True Christian?
But, if I do the will of God, obey God completely, follow His commandments, have nothing but a perfect zeal for God, yet do not subscibe to a certain doctrine or, worse yet, subscribe to a hincty doctrine such as "universalism" am I a heretic?

Let me finish this blabbocratic speech by asking forgiveness of all and sundry (who is this Sundry? Not so sure I like Sundry but I do love you "all" in Christ) for any offense given -- none intended. I, like George MacDonald, seek the truth and my utmost desire and conviction in life is to follow Jesus Christ, my Savior, my Lord, and my Judge into Eternity. Thanks for lending me your eyes, fellow Christians.