No Denominations In Heaven!

Someone gave an illustration of scaffolding on a building in progress. It isn't part of the building but is needed as a temporary support until the building is finished.

The problem with denominations is the reluctance to let the scaffolding go. Or folk may even start worshipping the scaffolding, long after the building has fallen down for lack of repair!

But the true Building will last for ever. JESUS is building His Church, and it isn't in organisations, denominations, disagreements over creeds and doctrines, church government, or what to call the leaders. Still less is it in bricks and morter, who does the flowers or where to put the organ!

Jeannette

KingJimmy said

...God's ultimate intent for the church is that all those who are saved be in perfect unity. I believe one day we will see this fulfilled here on the earth. What it will take to bring such a thing about, God only knows.

Judging from what Wurmbrand states in his books and sermons, I imagine the best thing that can happen to a splintered church divided over jots and tittles is... persecution. And lots of it.

Catholics, orthodox, baptists, charasmatics, calvinists, and armenians won't have the luxury of debating the finer points of theology when they're stripped, beaten, starved, and worked to death in concentration camps and finally lined up in a row and shot (or worse).

Whatever denomination he or she once "belonged to", at the end it comes down to him/her and God - which in my humble opinion is true religion.

davidt said

I would though however Corey be careful about that "Catholic" comment.

And you ought to careful if you think there aren't true brethren that were, and perhaps even now are, members of the Roman Catholic Church... because...

enid said

Corey mentioned the Catholics because Wurmbrand does mention them in his books.

He mentions being in prison with them.

They were there.

... Wurmbrand witnessed Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox priests who were martyred for refusing to deny Christ even after horrendous physical and mental torture and horrific spiritual abuse.

Evangelicals don't have the corner on Jesus.

I think it is possible for a Catholic to accept the blood of the Lamb be saved, even if they do erroneously pray to Mary.

You do not understand Catholicism.

Krispy

Enid & Preach... it is so refreshing to see that I am no longer one of the few voices of truth concerning the RCC on this forum. I'm glad to see that folks will speak the truth, no matter how unpopular it is.

Maybe my job here is done?? lol...

Krispy

No one really know where the heart of each Catholic really stands with the Lord, or how effective the RCC doctrine has been in polluting the heart of each individual.

I agree with this statement. Our job is not to judge peoples hearts or standing with the Lord.

But someone who calls themselves a Catholic, and holds to and practices the Catholic faith... trusting in these practices to save them... can not be saved. And if they have put their faith in Christ alone, then they can not be true Catholics.

Krispy

Mat 10:32 Whosoever, therefore shall confess, me before men, him will I confess also, before my Father which is in heaven.

In the context of this verse... how would you respond to a JW or Mormon who confesses Jesus before men? (as they do every day)

My question would be... which Jesus are they confessing?

See, you have to take every verse in context of scripture as whole. Scripture interprets scripture. If you take this verse alone, out of context, then anyone who says "I believe in Jesus!" is saved... and you know as well as I do... it ain't so.

Krispy

enid said

As it is there are too few with backbone like yourself.

They are so compromising, man pleasing and spineless...oops, should I say that? Not nice is it?

Well, considering Christ is our heavenly defense eagerly pleading with the Father for our cause... and Satan is our diabolical persecutor who searches out the world for every fault...

...who's are you to level an accusation? Who's child does that make you?

KrispyKrittr said

I agree with this statement. Our job is not to judge peoples hearts or standing with the Lord.

But someone who calls themselves a Catholic, and holds to and practices the Catholic faith... trusting in these practices to save them... can not be saved. And if they have put their faith in Christ alone, then they can not be true Catholics.

Are you forgetting the poor old woman who threw her last two pennies into the Treasury of the "apostate" Temple?

As corrupt as the institution is, the Word of God will not return void. I imagine that goes for (gasp!) catholics, too.

KrispyKrittr said

I agree with this statement. Our job is not to judge peoples hearts or standing with the Lord.

But someone who calls themselves a Catholic, and holds to and practices the Catholic faith... trusting in these practices to save them... can not be saved. And if they have put their faith in Christ alone, then they can not be true Catholics.

Are you forgetting the poor old woman who threw her last two pennies into the Treasury of the "apostate" Temple?

As corrupt as the institution is, the Word of God will not return void. I imagine that goes for (gasp!) catholics, too.

Btw, doesn't "catholic" just mean "universal"?

No Corey, there is no comparison to the widow in the parable.

The temple was not apostate... the leadership was.

They were not teaching false doctrine in the temple. What they were teaching was truth, but there hearts were far from God.

Apples to oranges.

Anyone who is truly saved according to scripture will leave the Catholic Church in time. God has never called anyone to stay within a false religion. Scripture commands that we [b]seperate[/b] from such. We are to mark and [b]avoid[/b] them.

My personal opinion is it doesnt matter what church you go to... when they veer off course you should make an attempt to show them their error, but if they refuse... you [b]leave[/b]. You dont hang around hoping to "make a difference". What will happen is they "make a difference" on you.

God calls us to seperate from that [i]for our own protection[/i]... and we better heed His Word.

It may take time for someone to leave due to ignorance of scripture, but if they are growing as believers it wont take long for them to see that they need to come out.

Doesnt matter if they are JW's, Mormons or Catholics who get saved, they are commanded to come out. You would think it impossible for a Muslim to get saved, and then continue to practice Islam... why would you think it ok for someone who gets saved thats part of any other false religion... like Catholocism?

Makes no sense...

Krispy

How many have heard people say something to this effect, "Well, when the 'Tribulation' comes, I won't take the mark, I'll die for Christ." While at the moment they are in utter sin and know they are not a Christian at the moment.

Oh! What horror! What if someone actually did something like that? Could you imagine? Being killed for the "cause of Christ" yet not even knowing him and wake up in Hell?

But Lord, I....

There's a sin that's worse than a lie in the world: hypocrisy.

If I had a God's eye view of PreachParsly's near-present thoughts and actions, would I find sin?

I don't know if someone or other will or won't take the mark, and I don't know their standing with God. I am called to be a "doer of the law", not a judge.

And when we start labeling a man who is willing to die for Christ - whatever his sins - WE are more in danger of judgement and hellfire than them.

If the Archangel Michael refuses to rail an accusation against Satan, who are we to accuse one another?

Is everyone in a bad mood today or something?

(By the way, I understood and agreed with Preach's words)

Krispy

I believe there might be "bad Catholics" out there who are actually good Christians. But I don't believe there are any good Catholics out there who are good Christians. For a good Catholic is trusting in their works to save them. And Galatians makes clear that those who are attempting to be justified by works are fallen from grace and cut off from Christ.

Amen KJ... I have to question someone's understanding of Catholicism if they think otherwise.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr said

No Corey, there is no comparison to the widow in the parable.

The temple was not apostate... the leadership was.

They were not teaching false doctrine in the temple. What they were teaching was truth, but there hearts were far from God.

Where the head turns the body surely follows.

Are you prepared to say there isn't a poor catholic widow that's going to heaven? Not one good thing can come out of the catholic church?

My personal opinion is it doesnt matter what church you go to... when they veer off course you should make an attempt to show them their error, but if they refuse... you leave. You dont hang around hoping to "make a difference". What will happen is they "make a difference" on you.

God calls us to seperate from that for our own protection... and we better heed His Word.

It may take time for someone to leave due to ignorance of scripture, but if they are growing as believers it wont take long for them to see that they need to come out.

Doesnt matter if they are JW's, Mormons or Catholics who get saved, they are commanded to come out. You would think it impossible for a Muslim to get saved, and then continue to practice Islam... why would you think it ok for someone who gets saved thats part of any other false religion... like Catholocism?

Makes no sense...

I positively agree that we are called to "come out of her". I am a "come outer" myself.

I am positing the possibility, no, the probability, that somewhere in the deep, dark recesses of "religious establishment" there are believing, prayerful, charitable poor old widows and unloved, but contrite, fatherless bastards that "tremble at God's Word"...

Not every "saved" soul will be as luminous as Savonarola or Luther.

Are you prepared to say there isn't a poor catholic widow that's going to heaven? Not one good thing can come out of the catholic church?

Not if she is relying on baptism or the other sacraments to save her. As much good as Mother Teresa did in her life, if her faith was in the sacraments of the "Church"... which is what she claimed, then she is not in heaven right now.

Pope John Paul II was a better man than me, by the world's standards. But is his salvation was in the sacraments of the "Church"... then he is not in heaven either.

Has anything good come out of the Church? Yes... absoltely. The true believers who realized the wretched, hellish doctrines of demons taught by the Catholic Church for what they were... trusted in the Lord Jesus' Blood alone, and came out of the RCC. Thats the good that has come out of the Catholic Church.

Oh... and one more thing good came out of the Catholic Church... BINGO!

B - 12!

Krispy

Quote:

Corey said:

And when we start labeling a man who is willing to die for Christ - whatever his sins - WE are more in danger of judgment and hellfire than them.

PreachParsly said:

Do you believe that saying "Lord" and dying because of that profession means you are right with God? In other words, does your own blood being shed make you justified? I'll refuse to believe you do, unless you inform me otherwise.

I believe that God sees all, knows all, and judges all - not us.

I believe that any professing "Christian" who denigrates ANYONE who died for refusing to deny Jesus... who hasn't faced the trial him/herself... is in immediate danger of hellfire and judgement. If we're right with our judgements, good for us. We've proved ourselves great judges of character, now haven't we? Being three thousand miles away... In you comfy chair, flavored coffee, and Windows Vista, with the SUV and white picket fence just outside the window.

Come on, people! We're alive! None of us on this board... NONE OF US HAVE FACED THAT TRIAL. How can we condemn a martyr to hell for being a catholic? Because he's a sinner?

So am I. Condemn me, too.

We don't know any man's relationship with God. And to judge a man's heart by his denomination is, in my humble opinion, is sheer foolishness and utterly dangerous.

Have all the problems with a denomination you want. Judge a man who died in Christ's name at your own peril.

Corey... unfortunately your beliefs seem to be based more on emotion, feelings and your opinions of right and wrong. I would recommend you check and see if they line up with scripture. From what you've said, they dont.

God judges by His Word... not by our human mind's opinion of constitutes justice.

I say this in love because I am concerned... you need to get your beliefs in line with scripture because I believe your skating on thin ice. Thats not a put down, or a judgement (because I hope I'm wrong)... it's just a concern for you.

Krispy

Come on, people! We're alive! None of us on this board... NONE OF US HAVE FACED THAT TRIAL. How can we condemn a martyr to hell for being a catholic? Because he's a sinner?

First off... how do you know no one here has never faced that trial? Do have any inclination how many people visit this site from around the world? Do you know any of us personally? You dont even know my real name. For all you know, I could be Billy Graham.

Secondly, none of us are condemning anyone to hell. They are condemning themselves.

You're saying being a martyr gets you to heaven. So in other words we can earn our salvation by being martyred? You know who else believes that? Suicide bombers in Iraq.

Krispy

We don't know any man's relationship with God. And to judge a man's heart by his denomination is, in my humble opinion, is sheer foolishness and utterly dangerous.

I must have missed something... I dont recall seeing where anyone in this conversation did that. Catholics can certainly be saved. I know many. But once they begin to grow and mature in the Lord, they dont stay in the RCC for very long. They get out.

I know I never said Catholics go to hell. I said anyone who puts their faith in the sacraments of the Church in order to be saved will find themselves in hell.

Scripture is clear... there is only one salvation. That is faith in the complete work of Christ done at the cross for the remission of sins. Anything less or added to that is not salvation.

Period.

Dont like it? Talk to God... those arent my words, they're His.

Krispy

First off... how do you know no one here has never faced that trial? Do have any inclination how many people visit this site from around the world? Do you know any of us personally? You dont even know my real name. For all you know, I could be Billy Graham.

Logic. Everyone currently posting here is alive. A living person cannot be a martyr. Therefore, no one on this board is or has been a martyr (hence, none here can justifiably judge any martyr who died for Christ's name).

If you told me the truth earlier about starting up a small prayer group, and then a home church, I can induce you are not Billy Graham - if you are Billy Graham, why are you so wealthy and why do you run with worldy presidents and politicians?

Secondly, none of us are condemning anyone to hell. They are condemning themselves.

We will be judged for every idle word we speak. Therefore, when you come before that Sapphire Throne surrounded by fire and seraphims, and the Ancient of the Ages gazes piercingly through your life with eyes flaming with a brilliance ten thousand times brighter than the Sun... and He asks you why you told others a martyr who died in Jesus' name was going to hell... what will you say?

Even if you don't know the fate of that man, what will you say?

You're saying being a martyr gets you to heaven. So in other words we can earn our salvation by being martyred? You know who else believes that? Suicide bombers in Iraq.

I'll let Jesus answer that one:

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven... And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." (MATT 10:32-40)

why are you so wealthy

Uhmmm... if you knew anything about Billy Graham, you would know he is not wealthy.

I live 20 miles from where he lives. I've been by his house. It's very modest. He has purposely lived on a fixed salary since the 1950's in order to avoid the temptation of money, and so that he could not be accused of being wealthy because of the Gospel.

Dont be so judgemental.

We will be judged for every idle word we speak. Therefore, when you come before that Sapphire Throne surrounded by fire and seraphims, and the Ancient of the Ages gazes piercingly through your life with eyes flaming with a brilliance ten thousand times brighter than the Sun... and He asks you why you told others a martyr who died in Jesus' name was going to hell... what will you say?

Well, first off... you're misrepresenting my words. Thats convenient. But to play your game, my response would be:

"Because You said 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.'" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

...but then, God knows His Word much better than I do. He already knows He said that.

Dont you get it, man? Salvation is not based on what we do or what we go thru... it's based on our trusting in the shed blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin! Many people have claimed to believe in Jesus (Matthew 7:22-23), and yet He will say to them "depart from me, I never knew you". There even have been people who were killed for not denying the name of Christ, yet they themselves were trusting in the sacraments of the Catholic Church for their salvation... and not the blood of Christ alone. They died believing in their own works to save them.

And it's a shame, and I take no pleasure in that.

This is not a "holier than thou" thing, and I dont say what I say to make myself feel superior to anyone. This is truth that I speak, and it's truth that you need to hear. Why? Because if what you are saying on this thread is truly what you believe about your own salvation... then I dont know that you are truly saved. I'm [b]not[/b] judging your heart, I am judging your words. Only you know for sure what you believe... but your words betray you, I think.

I really care about you, my friend... and to quote Keith Green "I only just want to see you there..."

Krispy

Back to the original thread...

There is one true church who are united in the blood of Christ and walk in the light of fellowship with God. Everyone who is truly born again is a member of this Church. This Church does not have a name or a building, it is a living body. The membership list is not recorded in any database and resides only in the lambs book of life. Blessed are those who find their names written there.

Beware of the false unity movement among the babylonian harlot that we call North American Evangelical Christianity (and beware of the RCC too).

In Christ - Jim

There is one true church who are united in the blood of Christ and walk in the light of fellowship with God. Everyone who is truly born again is a member of this Church. This Church does not have a name or a building, it is a living body. The membership list is not recorded in any database and resides only in the lambs book of life. Blessed are those who find their names written there.

Beware of the false unity movement among the babylonian harlot that we call North American Evangelical Christianity (and beware of the RCC too).

I shout amen at your first paragraph. Well stated, and I believe you are quite correct.

As to your second paragraph... I agree, but I think I would refrain from throwing the "babylonian harlot" blanket over ALL of the evangelical church. There are certainly problems, but you cant really generalize it the way you did. I think that is irresponsible.

Thats akin to me saying "anyone who reads the NIV is an unsaved hell bound heathen". Thats not a true statement at all.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr said

"Because You said 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.'" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

I agree. However,

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him...? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the alter? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the Friend of God. Yes see then how that by works a man is justified, and [b]not by faith only[/b]. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by her works, when she had recieved the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so [b]faith without works is dead also[/b]." (JAMES 2:14-26)

"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but [b]he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven[/b]. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, [b]and doeth them[/b], I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock..." (MATT 7:19-24)

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW. AND A MAN'S FOES SHALL BE THEY OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD. He that loveth father and mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [b]He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it[/b]." (MATT 10:32-39)

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were [b]slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held[/b]: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not avenge our on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, [b]until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled[/b]." (REV 6:9-11)

This is not a "holier than thou" thing, and I dont say what I say to make myself feel superior to anyone. This is truth that I speak, and it's truth that you need to hear. Why? Because if what you are saying on this thread is truly what you believe about your own salvation... then I dont know that you are truly saved. I'm not judging your heart, I am judging your words. Only you know for sure what you believe... but your words betray you, I think.

I really care about you, my friend... and to quote Keith Green "I only just want to see you there..."

We are being "holier than thou". We've passed judgement on men and women we don't know because of their affiliations with the catholic church. Now "we're" off to heaven and "they're" off to hell. Because we "know" sola fide's right... even when a sola scriptura Jesus reads "DO WHAT I'VE TOLD YOU TO DO" (see above).

Just like the Catholic Church, the Evangelical Churches have grasped and intellectualised to death revelations that come in through the fringes - and make them central doctrines. Eventually, one ends up at a place far from the intended meaning... "faith is the only way..." or "...works is the only way..." or "...manifesting tongues and prophecy is the only evidence..." or "...sanctification by sacraments..." and the steep slide into apostacy and hypocrisy occurs.

I believe wherever the scripture is preached, the odds are good there's someone saved around somewhere. Catholic or Evangelical, Pygmy or Chinese. It's God's word, after all.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (MATT 7:1-2)

"By their fruits (works) ye shall know them." (MATT 7:20)

You don't need to know if I'm truly saved. That's not your business. He saves me, not you. He judges me, not you.

You don't need to know if I'm truly saved. That's not your business. He saves me, not you. He judges me, not you.

Well... like I said, I was judging your words, not your heart. Why do I say this? Because perhaps I'm not understanding fully what you're saying.

Based on your words I think you're understanding of salvation is not scriptural.

You're words that I've quoted above say quite a bit about your attitude as well. I express concern, you tell me it's none of my business.

OK... shaking dust off the shoes. (Luke 9:5)

Krispy

This thread troubles me, but I don't know why.

If it's my last post... I dont harbor any ill feelings toward Corey. In fact, I'm very concerned for him. But scripture tells us in for different passages (all words of Christ) that if we share the gospel and it is rejected, walk away.

I'm not trying to be mean to Corey... just trying to be obedient to God. I'll continue to pray for him, but I will not get involved in a back and forth with him more than it has already been.

I'm holding out hope that he is just a bad communicator, or I am a bad understander... and that there is a miscommunication going on.

Krispy

PassingThru... excellent post. :-)

Krispy

Krispy said

Well... like I said, I was judging your words, not your heart. Why do I say this? Because perhaps I'm not understanding fully what you're saying.

I was judging your words, as well. And I hope this is just a misunderstanding as well.

Based on your words I think you're understanding of salvation is not scriptural.

Not my words only. Look again at the [b]scripture[/b] quoted in my last post. Jesus says those who cry "Lord, Lord" and don't do what He commands are turned away from the kingdom. Those who take up their cross and die are saved. James says "faith without works is dead". John the Divine says the souls under the alter died for the testimony (refusing to deny Jesus).

I understand the futility of trying to enter in to the kingdom on our own merits. I understand that faith comes before works - but not "sola fide"; not without works.

You're words that I've quoted above say quite a bit about your attitude as well. I express concern, you tell me it's none of my business.

OK... shaking dust off the shoes. (Luke 9:5)

I admit I may appear crass and unrefined, but that's only because I want the truth. I'm tired of pleasing people by telling them what they want to hear - that's why I'm trying to leave the world as far as possible. I looked to the churches for a place of sanctuary and have found as many, if not more, sycophants there as well.

I suppose I could hand-to-mouth when the preacher says we'll go floating off into the sky before tribulation comes... but then there's all those souls under the alter waiting for the rest of their brethren to be slain.

And I could smile and nod when he says "born again" Bush is doing a great job for Jesus by fighting gay marriage... and yet hundreds of thousands have died in the Middle East due to the "Decider's" misinformed invasion.

Or maybe I ought to throw up my hands, smiling, with tears running down my face when he blathers on in tongues and prophecies wealth, houses, new cars and fun for the congregation.

Krispy, I have no alternative. I either read my Bible, pray to the LORD and ask questions when I discern something doesn't jibe... or I agree with people who tell me this leaking ship isn't sinking.

Did you know people continued drinking and dancing after the Titanic hit the iceberg?

I want to be in the Lifeboat Christ's in. It's a small one. Few are in there.

But scripture tells us in for different passages (all words of Christ) that if we share the gospel and it is rejected, walk away.

He also said take up your cross and die.

I'm holding out hope that he is just a bad communicator, or I am a bad understander... and that there is a miscommunication going on.

Probably both, or neither... maybe we're just on different wavelengths.

I simply stated way back in this thread that under persecution, Wurmbrand noted, Catholics, Orthodox, Methodists, etc, worshipped together, refused to deny Christ equally, and died for their faith.

Someone said that Catholics were still doomed.

I said we can't judge their standing with God simply by the denomination they belong to.

I never said anyone's going to heaven or hell. I don't know. But neither do you. It's up to God.

You said something about sola fide, that faith in Jesus was the only way into the kingdom.

I countered with scripture that points out that faith without works is dead, that Christ commands us to be "doers of the law", not simply believers. I also quoted the scripture about the souls under the alter waiting for their brethren to be slain.

Krispy, I appreciate your posts and have agreed with many things you've said on other threads. No hard feelings here either.

OK... I understand better now.

Let's ignore the politics you've brought up, only because Bush has nothing to do with this conversation. Not saying I agree or disagree... just that it's not relevent.

Someone said that Catholics were still doomed.

As far as I know, no one here said that. I didnt. I said if they are putting their faith in the sacraments of the church... then they are not saved. Thats scriptural.

I said we can't judge their standing with God simply by the denomination they belong to.

I agree... amen. Keep in mind, however, that the Catholic Church is a false religion just like Mormonism or Islam. It's not a denomination. Ask a Catholic priest if the RCC is a denomination. He will tell you under no uncertain terms that it is not... it is the "true church", and non Catholic Christians are apostate.

You said something about sola fide, that faith in Jesus was the only way into the kingdom.

Thats right... and I'll stand by that.

I countered with scripture that points out that faith without works is dead, that Christ commands us to be "doers of the law", not simply believers. I also quoted the scripture about the souls under the alter waiting for their brethren to be slain.

Amen... I agree. Here's the thing, if one is truly saved the [b]fruit[/b] will be good works. I think thats where the confusion is. We can not bear good fruit until we are first saved. We are saved by by faith, not of works lest any man should boast. [b]Out of that faith[/b] will come good works. It happens because there has been a change in us, and the Holy Spirit is at work in us... and the result is good works. We now have a desire to please God, and we do this by being doers of the word, and not just hearers.

If we claim we've been saved, and there is no evidence of this... via good works, then we arent saved. Not because we didnt do good works, but because we were never truly saved by faith to begin with, and therefore [b]couldnt[/b] bear good fruit.

Krispy

Krispy,

I don't disagree with a thing you just posted. Yay!

-Corey

I thought it was a bit strange that all of a sudden we werent coming together on some as basic as this.... it's been a wierd couple of days on this forum!

Krispy

I thought it was a bit strange that all of a sudden we werent coming together on some as basic as this.... it's been a wierd couple of days on this forum!

Agreed. Do you really think Mormonism's a false religion?

...joking

... just a little bit!

Krispy

KingJimmy said

Indeed, ecumenism is not the solution. The one thing I want to place emphasis on here is the fact that the unity that is to be brought about, and the maturity that is to be brought about, must be the doing of the Lord. It is His work that He will do. The ecumenical movement is nothing more than an Ishamel-- attempting to help fulfill the promise of God by helping God out. Unless this unity and maturity happen through the work of the Spirit, then peace cannot ever happen.

Beautifully put. I wasn't trying to bring all religions under the banner of "Religion Mart" - but I think you know this.

I do believe in "one holy, catholic, apostolic church"... only we're spread out across the earth, one in this denomination, four in that one, like a multitude of stars in the vast blackness of space, we're seperated by miles of secular and religious infidels.