Old and New Testament saints: Any difference?

This came up recently in a local Bible study, although not a completely new concept to me:

Some teach that the men and women of God in the Old Testament were not truly born again because the Holy Spirit hadn't yet come to dwell permanently in the hearts of believers.

They say that no-one was actually born again until the Day of Pentecost.

What do you think? I used to believe it simply because of hearing this teaching from men of God who I couldn't imagine ever being wrong about anything!

Maybe I've grown up a little since then :-D

jeannette

LittleGift wrote:
This came up recently in a local Bible study, although not a completely new concept to me:

Some teach that the men and women of God in the Old Testament were not truly born again because the Holy Spirit hadn't yet come to dwell permanently in the hearts of believers.

They say that no-one was actually born again until the Day of Pentecost.

What do you think? I used to believe it simply because of hearing this teaching from men of God who I couldn't imagine ever being wrong about anything!

Maybe I've grown up a little since then :-D

jeannette

The first born again believers are found in John 20.22, the indwelling. Therefore, Pentecost was not the born again experience. Pentecost was the receiving of the Promise of the Father; the coming upon of the Holy Spirit to be able/to learn to function in the things of God as Jesus, the man did.

philologos wrote:

Some teach that the men and women of God in the Old Testament were not truly born again because the Holy Spirit hadn't yet come to dwell permanently in the hearts of believers.

They say that no-one was actually born again until the Day of Pentecost.

This would be my perspective too.

In light of John 20.22, how can it be an accurate perspective inasmuch as eveyone would have to speak in tongues as evidence of being born again. That is "Oneness Pentecostal" speak.

FWIW, I am a Pentecostal ... but not of the "oneness" sort.

Jeff wrote: How many "born again believers" do you know today that have the testimony of writer of Psalm 119?

hulsey wrote:
I would say that the difference is one of perspective. OT saints looking foward in faith to Christ; NT saints looking back in faith to Christ.

Jeannette

rookie wrote:
Brother Jeremy wrote:

I would say that the difference is one of perspective. OT saints looking foward in faith to Christ; NT saints looking back in faith to Christ.

Actually, aren't we all still looking foward for the redemption that has been promised to us. Aren't we all waiting for the day that we will truly see Christ as He is?

Just some thoughts

In Christ
Jeff

J

Edited out. Quoted the wrong answer, was trying to respond to Philologos' comment on the covenant aspect!

Ormly wrote:

The first born again believers are found in John 20.22, the indwelling. Therefore, Pentecost was not the born again experience. Pentecost was the receiving of the Promise of the Father; the coming upon of the Holy Spirit to be able/to learn to function in the things of God as Jesus, the man did.

Mmm again! John 20:22, never thought of that in this particular context. Jesus breathed on them and said "Receive the Holy Spirit". But was it an actual imparting of the Spirit at that moment, or a [i]sign[/i] that He was giving them the Spirit, without specifying when?

You could be right, although I was thinking more of John 14:15f in this context:
[i][color=000099]“If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and tHe will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, vwhom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells [b][i]with[/i][/b] you and will be [b][i]in[/i][/b] you." [/color][/i]

jeannette

Ormly wrote:

philologos wrote:

Some teach that the men and women of God in the Old Testament were not truly born again because the Holy Spirit hadn't yet come to dwell permanently in the hearts of believers.

They say that no-one was actually born again until the Day of Pentecost.

This would be my perspective too.

In light of John 20.22, how can it be an accurate perspective inasmuch as eveyone would have to speak in tongues as evidence of being born again. That is "Oneness Pentecostal" speak.

FWIW, I am a Pentecostal ... but not of the "oneness" sort.

I've never accepted that you have to speak in tongues to be born again, or even that it's the "initial evidence" of the Baptism in hte Spirit. My own experience (I was born again several years before receiving - very reluctantly! - tongues)and the experience of others I've met, shows its not true, besides it not really being borne out by Scripture.

This is really interesting and informative to get so many "takes" on the subject

Thanks everyone

Jeannette

philologos wrote:

Some teach that the men and women of God in the Old Testament were not truly born again because the Holy Spirit hadn't yet come to dwell permanently in the hearts of believers.

They say that no-one was actually born again until the Day of Pentecost.

This would be my perspective too. Suppose we begin in a different area by asking questions about Covenants. Are there differences in Covenants? Are the conditions different and the blessings different? What does God mean when he says, through Jeremiah...“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [u]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers[/u] in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt...” (Jer 31:31-32 KJVS)If the New Covenant was not going to be like the Old Covenant, how would it be different? and if it is different how would that difference affect those who were part of these different covenants?

Jeannette

rookie wrote:
Brother Jeremy wrote:

I would say that the difference is one of perspective. OT saints looking foward in faith to Christ; NT saints looking back in faith to Christ.

Actually, aren't we all still looking foward for the redemption that has been promised to us. Aren't we all waiting for the day that we will truly see Christ as He is?

Just some thoughts

In Christ
Jeff

Ormly wrote:
rookie wrote:
Brother Jeremy wrote:

Quote:

I would say that the difference is one of perspective. OT saints looking foward in faith to Christ; NT saints looking back in faith to Christ.

Actually, aren't we all still looking foward for the redemption that has been promised to us. Aren't we all waiting for the day that we will truly see Christ as He is?

Just some thoughts

In Christ
Jeff

[b]I am not. I am already redeemed. Heaven is no longer my goal.[/b]Do you mean heaven doesn't exist, or it's in your heart? I wold fully agree with the latter!

What about the redemption of the body, and the new heaven and new earth? Don't you look forward to that?

jeannette

LittleGift wrote:

Ormly wrote:
rookie wrote:
Brother Jeremy wrote:

Quote:

I would say that the difference is one of perspective. OT saints looking foward in faith to Christ; NT saints looking back in faith to Christ.

Actually, aren't we all still looking foward for the redemption that has been promised to us. Aren't we all waiting for the day that we will truly see Christ as He is?

Just some thoughts

In Christ
Jeff

[b]I am not. I am already redeemed. Heaven is no longer my goal.[/b]

Do you mean heaven doesn't exist, or it's in your heart? I wold fully agree with the latter!

What about the redemption of the body, and the new heaven and new earth? Don't you look forward to that?

I never wrote that I didn't look forward to it, I just wrote it is no longer my goal. Nor should it be yours, if in Christ. Eph.1.1

The body being redeemed? That's the resurrection, is it not?

Ormly wrote:

[b]I am not. I am already redeemed. Heaven is no longer my goal.[/b]

Do you mean heaven doesn't exist, or it's in your heart? I would fully agree with the latter!

What about the redemption of the body, and the new heaven and new earth? Don't you look forward to that?

I never wrote that I didn't look forward to it, I just wrote it is no longer my goal. Nor should it be yours, if in Christ. Eph.1.1

The body being redeemed? That's the resurrection, is it not?

True, heaven, as a place, (or at least a spiritual place) isn't the goal because in spirit we're there. And even more, because our goal should be GOD Himself - as the hymn says.

jeannette

Read these three from Oswald Chambers and see how apply to John 17:

May 28th

Unquestioned revelation

And in that day ye shall ask Me nothing. John 16:23.

When is “that day”? When the Ascended Lord makes you one with the Father. In that day you will be one with the Father as Jesus is, and “in that day,” Jesus says, “ye shall ask Me nothing.” Until the resurrection life of Jesus is manifested in you, you want to ask this and that; then after a while you find all questions gone, you do not seem to have any left to ask. You have come to the place of entire reliance on the resurrection life of Jesus which brings you into perfect contact with the purpose of God. Are you living that life now? If not, why shouldn’t you?
There may be any number of things dark to your understanding, but they do not come in between your heart and God. “And in that day ye shall ask Me no question”—you do not need to, you are so certain that God will bring things out in accordance with His will. John 14:1 has become the real state of your heart, and there are no more questions to be asked. If anything is a mystery to you and it is coming in between you and God, never look for the explanation in your intellect, look for it in your disposition, it is that which is wrong. When once your disposition is willing to submit to the life of Jesus, the understanding will be perfectly clear, and you will get to the place where there is no distance between the Father and His child because the Lord has made you one, and “in that day ye shall ask Me no question.”
------------------------------------------
May 29th

Undisturbed relationship

At that day ye shall ask in My name . . . . The Father Himself loveth you. John 16:26, 27.

“At that day ye shall ask in My name,” i.e., in My nature. Not— ‘You shall use My name as a magic word,’ but—‘You will be so intimate with Me that you will be one with Me.’ “That day” is not a day hereafter, but a day meant for here and now. “The Father Himself loveth you”—the union is so complete and absolute. Our Lord does not mean that life will be free from external perplexities but that just as He knew the Father’s heart and mind, so by the baptism of the Holy Ghost He can lift us into the heavenly places where He can reveal the counsels of God to us.
“Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in My name . . . .” “That day” is a day of undisturbed relationship between God and the saint. Just as Jesus stood unsullied in the presence of His Father, so by the mighty efficacy of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, we can be lifted into that relationship—“that they may be one, even as We are one.”
“He will give it you.” Jesus says that God will recognize our prayers. What a challenge! By the Resurrection and Ascension power of Jesus, by the sent-down Holy Ghost, we can be lifted into such a relationship with the Father that we are at one with the perfect sovereign will of God by our free choice even as Jesus was. In that wonderful position, placed there by Jesus Christ, we can pray to God in His name, in His nature, which is gifted to us by the Holy Ghost, and Jesus says—“Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in My name, He will give it you.” The sovereign character of Jesus Christ is tested by His own statements.
------------------------------------
July 28th

After obedience—what?

And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side. . . . Mark 6:45-52.

We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God’s purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end.
What is my dream of God’s purpose? His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.
God’s training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.
God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present; but if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. July 27

Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. May 29

Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. May 28

UniqueWebRev wrote:
What a lovely way of looking at things, to be so at one with the Father that one asks only for what the Father wants, and knows what that is.

Yes

But for us, being so untuned to Jesus, even though we have the Spirit in us, and Jesus in us, and we in Jesus, and Jesus in the Father, and the Father in Jesus, and therefore in us, and yet we cannot do this!

But that is what The message of the good news is all about, the enablement to become as He was.... that we become...NOW, as purposed in the Father through Jesus Christ.

Is this not why we need the glorified body, that we may commune so freely?

No. Not if it is for now that Jesus spoke of it..

For in my own skin, and the weight of me dragging me down, out and away from Jesus and the Spirit, I cannot know in that way.

Crucify it.

rowdy2 wrote:

Even though Peter was called and had followed Jesus, Peter had not been converted at the time of the events of Matthew 16. Peter was both spiritual minded and carnal minded until his conversion and I will defer too you as to time and place.
Eddie

That's right. A doubleminded man is what the word means when referring to purifying the heart.

FWIW Purifying the heart is spoken of as it being in need of being made single in Christ after the born again experience.

Colossians 3:22 (KJV) 3: Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

Again, this is what the gospel is all about after one is born again.

philologos wrote:

The first born again believers are found in John 20.22, the indwelling. Therefore, Pentecost was not the born again experience. Pentecost was the receiving of the Promise of the Father; the coming upon of the Holy Spirit to be able/to learn to function in the things of God as Jesus, the man did.

I believe the exact opposite.

well, you have the scripture discribing what happened, what else can be said?

philologos wrote:

That's right. A doubleminded man is what the word means when referring to purifying the heart.

Do you just make these up on the spur of the moment?

No.... Its called insight. Forntuately not too much is required for that passage.

I guess by that comment you believe God gives a new one when you get saved?

UniqueWebRev wrote:

Dear Ormly, I do. And more and more do I hear, and know a little, but knowing in full?

Only Jesus could do that as a Human.

Blessings,

Forrest

Who said you know in full?? Jesus, the man, didn't know in full either.

Maybe you haven't read that portion of it?

philologos wrote:

Read these three from Oswald Chambers and see how apply to John 17:

Oswald Chambers certainly did not believe what you believe.

Indeed he did. He persuaded me after I learned to read his style of writing.... then I never looked back. The Bible now reads like a new book.

If I was on a desert island with only 2 books granted me, one would my Thompson chain KJV amd the other would the complete works of Chambers sold on Amazon for under 30US.

You must speak of where it is you believe I am askew in my thinking. It is much too easy to say the right thing wrong on these forums.

philologos wrote:

Gen. 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

God said that before he had entered into any covenant with Abraham.

That is truth. Not only that but God did enter into convenant with Abraham with Him doing all the covenanting. I'm sure you remember that part when God walked through the pieces of meat sacrifice.

philologos wrote:

I guess by that comment you believe God gives a new one when you get saved?

I believe that the essence of regeneration is a new heart as part of the fulfillment of God's New Covenant.“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
(Ezek 36:26-27 KJVS)

I find it as a whole new nature and not a new heart that is given to the born again. But you check it out.

The gifted new heart can't be found in scripture except in Ezekiel as it pertains to Israel..

I know i have never seen any scripture in the OT that says:
Repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Yet this is said in Acts, to repent and receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Wasn't the Gift of the Holy Spirit promised with the New Covenant?
Hebrews 11 also states tht all those in the OT died without having received the Promise. It certainly doesn't mean the promise of salvation, but it means the promise of the Holy Spirit indwelling. If OT Saints were indwelt with the Holy Spirit which comes with regeneration, they why would Jesus need to died on a cross for salvation.