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Utter dependence - the antidote to utter depravity!

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For a long time I've seen original sin as "I did it my way". Instead of depending on the Lord to tell him what to do, Adam chose to go his own way. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to decide for himself what was right and wrong, instead of having the Lord instruct and empower them through the Tree of life.

Ever since then we have been in rebellion against authority of any kind. Have you seen a very young child deliberately and knowingly disobeying his parents? Sometimes even before they can walk.

When a little older than that, my mother said that one of my favourite expressions was "Jeanie do it!" I wasn't willing to accept any help from my parents if I imagined I could manage. I remember pushing my pushchair. It started to go into the wall and my mother put her hand on it to guide it. I was furious, and immediately gave it a violent shove that did send it into the wall. I then blamed my mother for interfering, convinced that it would have been OK if she'd just kept her hands off!!!

"Why should anyone - least of all God - tell mwe how to run my life? It's MY life, MY responsibility! How dare you tell me what to do!"

How often have we heard that said, in different forms? How often has that been in our hearts also? I speak of myself - even now - the desire to do my own thing is often only curbed by a fear of displeasing people, or a sense of duty.

As said in another thread, the power of my will frightens me - if I didn't know that the Power of the Cross was far far greater!

Lord, make me more dependent on YOU!

in Him

Jeannettte

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UniqueWebRev

Yeah, a nice refrain for a song....'I did it myyyyyyyyyy way!' Except that we are all so good at it, and from the cradle too, that it gets us in trouble!

Great insight, Jeannette, for everything I do in my own strength is either too petty for God to deal with, which means He wants me to, or I can't do it at all, and He would like me to ask Him to do it for me!

Blessings,

Forrest

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LittleGift wrote:
For a long time I've seen original sin as "I did it my way". Instead of depending on the Lord to tell him what to do, Adam chose to go his own way. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to decide for himself what was right and wrong, instead of having the Lord instruct and empower them through the Tree of life.

Ever since then we have been in rebellion against authority of any kind. Have you seen a very young child deliberately and knowingly disobeying his parents? Sometimes even before they can walk.

When a little older than that, my mother said that one of my favourite expressions was "Jeanie do it!" I wasn't willing to accept any help from my parents if I imagined I could manage. I remember pushing my pushchair. It started to go into the wall and my mother put her hand on it to guide it. I was furious, and immediately gave it a violent shove that did send it into the wall. I then blamed my mother for interfering, convinced that it would have been OK if she'd just kept her hands off!!!

"Why should anyone - least of all God - tell mwe how to run my life? It's MY life, MY responsibility! How dare you tell me what to do!"

How often have we heard that said, in different forms? How often has that been in our hearts also? I speak of myself - even now - the desire to do my own thing is often only curbed by a fear of displeasing people, or a sense of duty.

As said in another thread, the power of my will frightens me - if I didn't know that the Power of the Cross was far far greater!

Lord, make me more dependent on YOU!

in Him

Jeannettte

But Adam did all that before he ate of the tree of knowledge. So how can you say eating of it "enabled" him in any way?

S
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But Adam did all that before he ate of the tree of knowledge. So how can you say eating of it "enabled" him in any way?
That's a thought! Probably because the act of rebellion [i]itself[/i], in eating the fruit, produced the result, knowing not only good and evil but that he'd done evil?

Thanks Ormley for having such a different angle on things. Makes one think and seek the Lord, and perhaps get rid of some preconceived ideas :-)

Jeannette

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LittleGift wrote:
But Adam did all that before he ate of the tree of knowledge. So how can you say eating of it "enabled" him in any way?
That's a thought! Probably because the act of rebellion [i]itself[/i], in eating the fruit, produced the result, knowing not only good and evil but that he'd done evil?

Thank you, Jeanette.

The thing that needs to be remembered in all this is that you and I are now what Adam was and are confronted with the same choices that confronted him and for the same reasons. Think about that heavy then ask what God was after in Adam and is He not after the same thing in us?

We can talk about that if you like. You will find it very exciting. Let me wet your whistle:

Romans 8:15-16 (KJV) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Also;
Galatians 4:5-7 (KJV)To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The above is what redemption is all about, it being only the doorway to it.

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Ormly wrote:

LittleGift wrote:
But Adam did all that before he ate of the tree of knowledge. So how can you say eating of it "enabled" him in any way?
That's a thought! Probably because the act of rebellion [i]itself[/i], in eating the fruit, produced the result, knowing not only good and evil but that he'd done evil?

Thank you, Jeanette.

The thing that needs to be remembered in all this is that you and I are now what Adam was and are confronted with the same choices that confronted him and for the same reasons. Think about that heavy then ask what God was after in Adam and is He not after the same thing in us?

He was after fellowship! He was after a part of His creation that would respond freely to His love, walk and talk with Him, share something of His glory that no other physical creature - made from mere dust - can.

The difference between Adam and us is that Adam was created innocent, while we are born in the aftermath of the Fall, into a world of many imperfections and evil of all kinds.

I'm not sure if we are born with an inbuilt [i]possibility[/i] of rebelling against God, (as Adam must have been or he wouldn't have done it), or if we are born without a real choice any more, (Adam before he sinned did have a choice), with the seed of rebellion already in our hearts.

This question has already been discussed at length recently, and I didn't comment. However, thinking about it afresh I think that we do have a disadvantage over Adam - except for the grace of God.

It seems from scripture that Adam and Eve probably had no children until after the Fall. I believe that there is evidence of spiritual inheritance as well as physical; that is that sin of the fathers does affect the children spiritually. (For example, occult practices by a close relative can spiritually damage their children, nieces, nephews etc).

So I think it likely that we are all permanently affected in some way or another, by Adam's rebellion, without even having the choice to [i]not[/i] rebel. Like a child born with an inherited disease, or a drug addict like its mother. Not through its own choice but by the choice of its forebears. Except for the grace of God this is the lot of all of us.

Maybe the [i]first[/i] thing that the Holy Spirit does in our lives on the verge of being saved is to set us free to choose, as Adam was free to choose. As it says "I set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life" (Deut 19:13)
These are just a few thoughts at the moment, as I haven't considered this matter very much up until now.

Enouigh to be going on with maybe!

We can talk about that if you like. You will find it very exciting. Let me wet your whistle:

Romans 8:15-16 (KJV) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Also;
Galatians 4:5-7 (KJV)To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The above is what redemption is all about, it being only the doorway to it.

Indeed it is! The first thing I learned as a new-born child of God was to cry "Daddy!" No-one had to tell me, I just knew. Before, my prayers began with "O God..." Now it was "FATHER!!!"

That was 40 yers ago today, and still "Abba, Father" is in my heart!

Anyone going to wish me Happy Birthday? :-D

In Him

Jeannette

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UniqueWebRev

Why, Jeannette!

You got another year younger when we weren't looking?

Very sneaky of you.

Blow out one candle less, please. And eat my piece of cake for me.

Blessings,

Forrest

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He was after fellowship! He was after a part of His creation that would respond freely to His love, walk and talk with Him, share something of His glory that no other physical creature - made from mere dust - can.

He was after what Jesus became, a divine-human family with Christ, the Word become flesh, as the head of it. That plan has never been altered in anyway way except man, because of Adam's trangression, needed to be redeemed for it to continue and come to fruition.....That is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ..

....few there will be who enter.

U
UniqueWebRev

I rather think that God would have been perfectly happy if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of Life.

And then He could have told them how to procreate. Little else would be needed after that, and God would have His family.

Blessings,

Forrest

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UniqueWebRev wrote:
I rather think that God would have been perfectly happy if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of Life.

And then He could have told them how to procreate. Little else would be needed after that, and God would have His family.

Blessings,

Forrest

Not hardly since Adam was to be groomed for divinity and come to his own Mt Transfiguration experience; his own graduation day as Jesus did.

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UniqueWebRev wrote:
I rather think that God would have been perfectly happy if Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of Life.

And then He could have told them how to procreate. Little else would be needed after that, and God would have His family.

Blessings,

Forrest

Hi Forrest

Not quite sure what you mean by "And then He could have told them how to procreate"?

Maybe they already knew, but there wasn't yet a child conceived.

But all that is speculation, sadly, because they ate from the wrong tree.

Blessings

jeannette

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UniqueWebRev wrote:
Why, Jeannette!

You got another year younger when we weren't looking?

Very sneaky of you.

Blow out one candle less, please. And eat my piece of cake for me.

Blessings,

Forrest

Lol! I wont tell you how old I was when I finally yielded to the Lord...

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Ormly wrote:
He was after fellowship! He was after a part of His creation that would respond freely to His love, walk and talk with Him, share something of His glory that no other physical creature - made from mere dust - can.

He was after what Jesus became, a divine-human family with Christ, the Word become flesh, as the head of it. That plan has never been altered in anyway way except man, because of Adam's trangression, needed to be redeemed for it to continue and come to fruition.....That is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ..

....few there will be who enter.

Mmmmm Isn't that a sort of logical extension of what I said? A created being somehow brought into the fellowship of the Godhead itself...And then multiplied and ruling over all the rest of earthly creation...

But in Christ, as the hymn says:
[i][color=000099]"In Him the tribes of Adam boast
[b]More[/b] blessings than their father lost"[/color][/i]

Wow!!!

In Him

Jeannette

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LittleGift wrote:

Ormly wrote:
He was after fellowship! He was after a part of His creation that would respond freely to His love, walk and talk with Him, share something of His glory that no other physical creature - made from mere dust - can.

He was after what Jesus became, a divine-human family with Christ, the Word become flesh, as the head of it. That plan has never been altered in anyway way except man, because of Adam's trangression, needed to be redeemed for it to continue and come to fruition.....That is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ..

....few there will be who enter.

Mmmmm Isn't that a sort of logical extension of what I said? A created being somehow brought into the fellowship of the Godhead itself...And then multiplied and ruling over all the rest of earthly creation...

But in Christ, as the hymn says:
[i][color=000099]"In Him the tribes of Adam boast
[b]More[/b] blessings than their father lost"[/color][/i]

Wow!!!

In Him

Jeannette

Yes it is, Jeanette, My point is that it is more than fellowship and more to being equal with God Himself, if such a notion has even entered our thinking, and what all we will be a part of in eternity in the univeral picture..
This puts the question out there as to the value of the notion that all one has to do is "accept Jesus into your heart and it is all yours". Sorry but my Bible say such a thing.
Now this can be followed with the next question having to do with redemption and "what next" after we are? How can that single message be a sustaining one for any who hear week it after week while struggling in an evil world?

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Ormly wrote:
...My point is that it is more than fellowship and [b][i]more to being equal with God Himself[/i][/b], if such a notion has even entered our thinking, and what all we will be a part of in eternity in the univeral picture..
I have heard this teaching, that we can become one with the Godhead, and there is truth in it. The only thing is that it is perilously close to the first temptation, "You shall be as God..."

It is vital to discern between the two - especially in view of what some popular false teachers are saying; which is the temptation, not the Truth, of the matter.

The most subtle errors are the nearest to the Truth.

How would you go about distinguishing between them in practice?

This puts the question out there as to the value of the notion that all one has to do is "accept Jesus into your heart and it is all yours". Sorry but my Bible say such a thing.
The potential is there, "all things are yours...and you are Christs, and Christ is God's" (1Cor 3:21-23), but we have to grow into it.
Now this can be followed with the next question having to do with redemption and "what next" after we are? [i][b]How can that single message be a sustaining one for any who hear week it after week while struggling in an evil world?[/b][/i]
Not sure what you mean by asking this. Of course it can't! The practical answer to "what next?" is to simply get on with the business of living in Jesus. There is more to it than that of course, but this is where we all begin.

When a child is born it breathes, cries, moves, feeds and begins to grow. Not by conscious decision but by virtue of the life that is within it. It's when we get older that we begin to get complicated and lose something of that childlike trust and natural moving in Him.

It took me a very long time to eventually begin to learn that "becoming as a little child includes not worrying about how to "breathe and grow", but just [i]doing[/i] it!

Like this comic poem - (I can very much identify with the poor creature!)

[b][color=000099]A centipede was happy quite,
Until a frog in fun
Said, "Pray which leg comes after which?"
This raised her mind to such a pitch
She lay distracted in the ditch
Considering how to run![/color][/b]

In Him who is our Life, our righteousness, our all.

Jeannette

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Psalm73

Hi, there are many ways to look at the gospel of Christ and ways to tell of falsehood. In any minister look for coevtousnes in his words, remember they having eyes full of advoutry and cannot cease from sin, beguiling unstable souls. For false prophets are simply wolves in sheep's clothing.
All of you would take Paul for a sinner, for he said we are as decievers and yet true, for I as Paul will show you that I have not shunned to declare unto you the full counsail of God, and that I've turned from preaching of men's precepts in praise of idols, with ignorance of covetousness, with all our wantoness, uncleanness, and fornications which we have repented not of?

Acts 17:29-32 (1526 Tyndale N.T) Forasmuch then as we are the generation of God, we ought not to think that the godhead is like unto gold, silver, or stone, graven by craft and imagination of man.
30 And the time of this ignorance God regarded not: but now he biddeth all men everywhere repent,
31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world according to righteousness, by that man, whom he hath appointed, and hath given faith to all men, after that he had raised him from death.
32 ¶ When they heard of the resurrection from death, some mocked, and other said: we will hear thee again of this matter.


Now, the health of God is a revalacion, not revealed through any one bloated pharisee dead men's bones, graves that appear not.

2 Corin Co 7:10 For ye sorrowed godly: so that in nothing were ye hurt by us. For godly sorrow causeth repentance unto health, not to be repented of: when worldly sorrow causeth death

Php 1:28 and in nothing fearing your adversaries: which is to them a token of perdition, and to you a sign of health, and that of God

Now, to sum this up, he which is born carnally persecuteth he that is born spiritually, even so it is now. For all that live godly in CHrist Iesu, must suffer persecutions.

Here is the proof of the gospel is given to men of God only be revalation Galations 1:12 neither received I it of man, neither was I taught it: but received it by the revelation of Iesus Christ.
Ga 2:2 Yea, and I went up by revelation, and commended with them of the gospell, which I preach among the gentiles: but apart with them that are counted chief, lest it should have been thought that I should run, or had run in vain.
Eph 3:3 For by revelation shewed he this mystery unto me, as I wrote above in few words,

FOr by grace ye are saved, and it is a gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I know the consequences when Esau and Ismael (Agar's son who preaceth circumsion) My praise is not of men, only of God.
When you realize it is not the servant of God's job to please men, you realize he always chooses the lowly and not the rich.
God also has a way of changing a persecutor's heart against the idoltary and witchcraft of this world. Now the works of the flesh are manifest;but do you truly have love and meekness together?
Love one another, and this is the love, that we should keep his commandments? Proof of the gospel of the grace of Iesus Christ, and how you understand not that I as Paul bear his cross daily? People throw stones at you when you carry it, they look at you funny, they watch yourfootsteps, they bear FALSE WITNESS and rob thee, and would especially love the murther of thee. If thou wast a true evangelist, and actually had the love of God abiding in the.

Tarry Merritt
Website coming soon, printer of the 1526 Tyndale N.T and Modern Matthew's O.T coupled.
By faith Moses forsook Egypt, thorow faith Sara had strength to conceive and what about those that wandered wilderenesses and deserts? Spurgeon and his broad phylacteries would get no where when it;'s time to fly into the mountains at the time of abominable desolation. (understand Daniel the prophet) For he will persecute the saints of the most high and overcome them, and may think to change times and laws. Daniel 7:24-26,
these are obstinate, their eyes they have closed, there ears they have shut, lest at any time they should believe and the Lord should heal them.
The gospel is tough and narrow, and the least to greatest of them are given to their covetousness.

No reduncy only the "I hold you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men"
For I have kept nothing back: but have shewed you all the counsel of God.

Trueth is, hate it is not, but brotherly love. Wherin it is writte, thou shalt love thine neighbor as thyself and thou shalt love thy Lord God with all thy herte, with all thy soul and with all thy mind. On these 2 commandments hang all the law and prophets.

Not the flesh, but the powerful and mighty Holy Spirit of God, that doesnot preach through covetous witches who preach wanton against Christ.


Amen to the Lord Christ Iesu the son of the living God and to the brethren in all lands of elect Israel, be grace, mercy and peace from the Lord Christ Jesus and God the father.
Whom we sit in heavenly thines

We understand that this is your intelectual property, and if I had not this poor man surrondings, you'd hear this voice with ghostly minded power preaching the Lord's cross.

Amen

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Hi Psalm 73,

Sorry, I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say!

You seem to be saying that we are all wrong, and that Spurgeon is wrong and some other people, but why you think that (if you do) I can't make out at all :-?

Maybe I'm just getting tired - it's nearly midnight here!

Thanks

Jeannette

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Jeannette


LittleGift wrote:
Hi Psalm 73,

Sorry, I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say!

You seem to be saying that we are all wrong, and that Spurgeon is wrong and some other people, but why you think that (if you do) I can't make out at all :-?

Maybe I'm just getting tired - it's nearly midnight here!

Just bumping up the thread because I really would like to understand what you are saying! Maybe the problem is with the version of the Bible you use, which is harder to read than the KJV.

Can you put what you mean in plain English please? Maybe in your own words? Bible quotes alone can be confusing unless you explain what point you are trying to illustrate by them.

Sorry to go on about it, but it would be good to know where you're coming from, and any truths the Lord has shown you.


Blessings


Jeannette

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LittleGift wrote:

Ormly wrote:
...My point is that it is more than fellowship and [b][i]more to being equal with God Himself[/i][/b], if such a notion has even entered our thinking, and what all we will be a part of in eternity in the univeral picture..
I have heard this teaching, that we can become one with the Godhead, and there is truth in it. The only thing is that it is perilously close to the first temptation, "You shall be as God..."


It is vital to discern between the two - especially in view of what some popular false teachers are saying; which is the temptation, not the Truth, of the matter.

Indeed, I have also. The rest of "their story" has much to do with my accepting what they preach. Buyer beware.

The most subtle errors are the nearest to the Truth.

How would you go about distinguishing between them in practice?

I wrote this to myself awhile back:

01-2006 The Lord Jesus Christ is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. We were in Him at the first, from the foundation of the worlds, and will be in Him at the last. Between the first and the last we are in this world to become [a son]. The first and the last, the responsibility is His.. The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh. Without a vision of the last, we will not become that which is purposed in us by our Father. The vision of the last is imparted in us from the first. A revelation of the first, the Christ of Glory, will bring the vision of the last that will sustain "the in-between"... in which we presently function.

[08-16-06]The revelation of the Promise OF the faith OF Christ is that part of the vision that will sustain us to becoming the “full ear of grain”….Union with the Father in our flesh. [Gal.2.20 KJV only]

[O8-30-06] ** “God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now” ....... that I become that “a ear of grain”.

** Oswald Chambers


This puts the question out there as to the value of the notion that all one has to do is "accept Jesus into your heart and it is all yours". Sorry but my Bible say such a thing.
The potential is there, "all things are yours...and you are Christs, and Christ is God's" (1Cor 3:21-23), but we have to grow into it.

I would question if anything is achieved by such an "acceptance" but rather a revelation of Christ that brings on the needed contriteness of heart that God will not despise; a heart that would respond to the "Come unto Me", from the Lord.

Now this can be followed with the next question having to do with redemption and "what next" after we are? [i][b]How can that single message be a sustaining one for any who hear week it after week while struggling in an evil world?[/b][/i]
Not sure what you mean by asking this. Of course it can't!

But that is exactly what I mean and yet that is the most preached every Sunday to the same people. Have you ever listened to Dr. Charles Stanley? Great example of this.

The practical answer to "what next?" is to simply get on with the business of living in Jesus. There is more to it than that of course, but this is where we all begin.

From Chambers:


July 28th

After obedience—what?

And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side. . . . Mark 6:45-52.
We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God’s purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end.
What is my dream of God’s purpose? His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.
God’s training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.
God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present; but if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. July 28

When a child is born it breathes, cries, moves, feeds and begins to grow. Not by conscious decision but by virtue of the life that is within it. It's when we get older that we begin to get complicated and lose something of that childlike trust and natural moving in Him.

It took me a very long time to eventually begin to learn that "becoming as a little child includes not worrying about how to "breathe and grow", but just [i]doing[/i] it!

Ah, but there is a character to be learned; to be instilled in the child that is to become a son unto the Father who has begotten us through Christ Jesus. It is the saddest of days when the Church lost its way in the understanding of this, the result of which has left us with so many unnecessary arguments and bastard sons..

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Ormly wrote:
[Jeannette]The practical answer to "what next?" is to simply get on with the business of living in Jesus. There is more to it than that of course, but this is where we all begin.

[Ormley] From Chambers:

July 28th

After obedience—what?

And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side. . . . Mark 6:45-52.
We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God’s purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end.
What is my dream of God’s purpose? [b]His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now.[/b] If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; [b]His end is the process—that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.[/b]
God’s training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.
God’s end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present; but if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. July 28

[Jeannette]: When a child is born it breathes, cries, moves, feeds and begins to grow. Not by conscious decision but by virtue of the life that is within it. It's when we get older that we begin to get complicated and lose something of that childlike trust and natural moving in Him.

It took me a very long time to eventually begin to learn that "becoming as a little child includes not worrying about how to "breathe and grow", but just doing it!

Ah, but there is a character to be learned; to be instilled in the child that is to become a son unto the Father who has begotten us through Christ Jesus. It is the saddest of days when the Church lost its way in the understanding of this, the result of which has left us with so many unnecessary arguments and bastard sons..
Hi again Ormley

What I think are the best bits of the Oswald Chambers quote (above) are underlined!

Your comment about growing into "sonship" takes more thought...

I think the "growing up" is paradoxical, "a little child shall lead them"; "the last shall be first and the first last". That's how its been with me anyway. I had to [i]learn[/i] to become as a little child in the way Jesus meant. When I began to learn it, (still at kindergarten stage now, after 40 years!!) THAT was the beginning of growing up. Dependence is the start of maturity, not its end. [i][b]Maturity in Christ is the place of the greatest, most childlike dependence on the Father[/b][/i]. The world has it the other way around, and the world is wrong!

Remember when Nicodemus came to Jesus... This theologian, a Bible teacher, a leader and elder, couldn't understand the simplest things of the Kingdom of God, that he should have understood from his own knowledge of the Scriptures.

Why couldn't he understand? Because he was too complicated, too grown up, too intellectual.

A friend who wrote things very much in the Spirit, used to send copies of the Bible Studies she did. One day I read it, and said aloud, "It's so SIMPLE! ...And I don't understand a word of it!!!" It was something that was written, and could only be received, in the Holy Spirit. It was too simple, too [i]childlike[/i], for anyone not in the Spirit.

This is Christian maturity. This is where we begin to grow up!

Do you know, I'm not sure if we agree or not on this. The last post did get a bit complicated to remember who was saying what when! :-?


In Him

Jeannette

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rookie

Sister Jeannette wrote:

For a long time I've seen original sin as "I did it my way". Instead of depending on the Lord to tell him what to do, Adam chose to go his own way. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil enabled man to decide for himself what was right and wrong, instead of having the Lord instruct and empower them through the Tree of life.

We are given an example in the lives of Abel and Cain. Abel was the first prophet of God.

Luke 11:

’ 50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

So by Scripture we know that God spoke to Abel. This is the proof of the "knowledge of good" that was available to man after the fall.

We also know that God gave revelation to both Abel and Cain in regards to their relationship with the Lord...

Genesis 4:

4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

Scripture tells us that God was pleased with Abel but not so with Cain. This tells us that God had given both Abel and Cain knowledge of how one is to please God.

We also know that God spoke to Cain these words...

Gen. 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

Here we see that God instructed Cain and exhorted him to repent and seek Him. We also see in this Scripture the warning God gives to Cain about the intents of his heart. God gives him a choice.

We know from Scripture that Cain chose to follow Satan, this in Scripture is the "knowledge of evil."

What does Scripture teach us about Cain's choice?

1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

Cain chose to follow Satan and rejected God.

We also know that in the Garden this is what God said to Satan...

Gen. 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
\t“Because you have done this,
\tYou are cursed more than all cattle,
\tAnd more than every beast of the field;
\tOn your belly you shall go,
\tAnd you shall eat dust
\tAll the days of your life.
15 \tAnd I will put enmity
\tBetween you and the woman,
\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;
\tHe shall bruise your head,
\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.”

In verse 15 we learn that there are children who are the seed of Satan and children who are of the Seed of the woman. In this Scripture we find that this covenant with Satan is in the spiritual domain, and that as Christ said to His disciples that the world hated him, so would the world hate all those who followed Him.

We also know from Scripture that Satan speaks and teaches men to do his will...

John 8

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

So all men are given the choice because we are given both the knowledge of good and evil. Whoever we choose to follow that is who we become the seed of; the seed of the devil or the Seed of the woman.

In Christ
Jeff

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Rookie wrote:

We know from Scripture that Cain chose to follow Satan, this in Scripture is the "knowledge of evil."

Permit my "slight" adjustment in this, Jeff.

[b]Cain chose to follow his own way. Satan could have cared less because it wasn't God's way. Anyway man chooses is ok with Satan as long as it is not God's way.

The principle of the cross was no different in this as it was with his father Adam. Both father and son gave into the lust of the flesh and not Love to God. Lust means: "I must have it now"!

Two things should now strike you in this: When Adam gave in, his nature was sinless. When Cain gave in, his nature was sinful. Both men had no "inner influence" to help them aside from their own consciences. Though there was outside influence to affect him, as temptation from Satan and the drawing of God, there was no outside influence that could interfere with the will of either man. Man was created that he always had to make a choice between the two influences either from a sinless state of being,Adam, or a sinful state of being, Cain and Abel. God was always looking for him to make the right choice. Man's fallen condition never altered that requirement.

Enter Jesus Christ, who by His sacrifice ON the cross we can now have a new birth, a new divine life within us, a new creation, whereby can have a divine power man has never had, within him. Isn't that something to shout about??!!

That is THE principle reason for redemption and THE gospel of the Good News![/b]


L
Logic

Ormly wrote:
[b]Cain chose to follow his own way. Satan could have cared less because it wasn't God's way. Anyway man chooses is ok with Satan as long as it is not God's way.

Amen!

How do you come against this logic?

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rookie

Brother Ormly wrote:

Cain chose to follow his own way. Satan could have cared less because it wasn't God's way. Anyway man chooses is ok with Satan as long as it is not God's way.

This is not according to Scripture...

1 John 3:

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,
12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.


Satan teaches man about evil, he was a murder from the begining and he speaks from his own resources. Those who follow Satan will want to kill those who follow God. This precept is taught in Genesis 3:15.



Both men had no "inner influence" to help them aside from their own consciences. Though there was outside influence to affect him, as temptation from Satan and the drawing of God, there was no outside influence that could interfere with the will of either man.

Why then was Abel the first prophet of God? How did Abel know what pleased God? Why did Cain hate Abel?

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly wrote:

Why then was Abel the first prophet of God? How did Abel know what pleased God? Why did Cain hate Abel?

In Christ
Jeff

Abel had regard for God, He had only one thing to offer Him to demonstrate his regard, his best. That is what pleased God.

Cain had no such regard. The lack of regard for God that ruled his life, cost Abel his life.

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rookie

Brother Ormly wrote:

Abel had regard for God, He had only one thing to offer Him to demonstrate his regard, his best. That is what pleased God.

Abel and Cain both heard God speak to them. Both were taught by God how to (using your word)have "regard" for God.

How did God speak to Abel and Cain? By what means?

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly wrote:

Abel had regard for God, He had only one thing to offer Him to demonstrate his regard, his best. That is what pleased God.

Abel and Cain both heard God speak to them. Both were taught by God how to (using your word)have "regard" for God.

How did God speak to Abel and Cain? By what means?

In Christ
Jeff

I don't know how much they needed to be taught by God since Adam no doubt did the teaching necessary as an earthly father was purposed to do. However, there must have been some point in time when worship to God was offered that God verbally responded to, much like the record states in regards to God accepting and rejecting the their offering. The issue here has to do with the independed hearts of each of the boys.

When Adam disobeyed it had nothing to do with resentment to God. Adam just chose to do his own thing without regard to God's instruction. Cain, on the other hand and now that his nature was fallen, knew what resentment was because the tree of knowledge of good and evil was his "college education". He knew all about evil thoughts and feelings his father never dreamed of before the fall. It was such that he entertained such thoughts that sin, always crouched at his door, he let it in. Adam didn't know what resentment was. He had no knowledge of such evil thoughts to overcome as we all now must do.

Cain may have resented Abel's relationship to God; the regard for which God had for Abel that was of a reciprocal nature Cain was not willing to enter into. I can see Cain's pride in this; him thinking more highly of himself than he should where Abel was humble and eager to be in God's presence.

If you think about it, all of this can easily relate to Esau and Jacob and why God hated Esau and loved Jacob; how the older would eventually serve the younger..... and how the younger in both instances had to die first, one physically, the other spiritually. All in God's timing and purposes.

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rookie

Brother Ormly wrote:

The issue here has to do with the independed hearts of each of the boys.

Actually according to the nature of this thread, the question is not one of independence but of dependence. Scripture teaches that Abel was dependent on God. And Scripture also teaches that Cain chose to be dependent on Satan.



Cain may have resented Abel's relationship to God; the regard for which God had for Abel that was of a reciprocal nature Cain was not willing to enter into.

15 \tAnd I will put enmity
\tBetween you and the woman,
\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;
\tHe shall bruise your head,
\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.”

Don't we see the first example of this emnity between the seed of Satan (the child of Satan) and the Seed of the woman, (the children of God).

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly wrote:

The issue here has to do with the independed hearts of each of the boys.

Actually according to the nature of this thread, the question is not one of independence but of dependence. Scripture teaches that Abel was dependent on God. And Scripture also teaches that Cain chose to be dependent on Satan.

Jeff

oh? Where is that in the OT scripture? No spam from the NT please.

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rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly wrote:

Cain may have resented Abel's relationship to God; the regard for which God had for Abel that was of a reciprocal nature Cain was not willing to enter into.

15 \tAnd I will put enmity
\tBetween you and the woman,
\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;
\tHe shall bruise your head,
\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.”

Don't we see the first example of this emnity between the seed of Satan (the child of Satan) and the Seed of the woman, (the children of God).

In Christ
Jeff

Sorry, It has no Bearing on it whatsoever.

P
PreachParsly

oh? Where is that in the OT scripture? No spam from the NT please.

WHAT? Spam from the NT? :-?

Should we burn the NT because it's not of God or something?

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PreachParsly wrote:
oh? Where is that in the OT scripture? No spam from the NT please.

WHAT? Spam from the NT? :-?

Should we burn the NT because it's not of God or something?

Of course not. I just asked not to spam verses from it. You know, scads of proof text verses that are irrelevant to OT spiritual conditions and the subject at hand..
That shouldn't be hard for anyone here who knows their Bible.

L
Logic

rookie wrote:

Actually according to the nature of this thread, the question is not one of independence but of dependence. Scripture teaches that Abel was dependent on God. [b]And Scripture also teaches that Cain chose to be [u]dependent on Satan[/u][/b].


Cain had know desire to be dependent on anybody but himself.

God did not accept his sacrifice because there was no blood.
Cain was jelous of his brother and killed him.


The Seed of the woman is Jesus.

The Woman is Israel.

R
rookie

Brother Ormly wrote:

Of course not. I just asked not to spam verses from it. You know, scads of proof text verses that are irrelevant to OT spiritual conditions and the subject at hand..

Is not all creation subject to the spiritual world? Here is an OT example of the spiritual in control of the world we see...

Job 1:

13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the [fn3] Sabeans raided them and took them away--indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from [fn4] across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"


Here we see that both the Sabeans and Chaldeans did the will of Satan, were these people dependent on their father the devil?

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie

Brother Logic wrote:

God did not accept his sacrifice because there was no blood.

Why did God then speak to Cain and encourage him to repent?

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie

Brother Logic wrote:

The Woman is Israel.

Is this the same woman that Paul teaches about in Galatians 4:


Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The woman that is from above Jerusalem, is this the mother of the Seed?

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie

Brother Ormly wrote:

Sorry, It has no Bearing on it whatsoever.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In this Scripture, who is "thy seed" refering to?

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie, I believe you have a serious spiritual problem.

L
Logic

rookie wrote:
Brother Logic wrote:
God did not accept his sacrifice because there was no blood.
Why did God then speak to Cain and encourage him to repent?

In Christ
Jeff

Because God loved Him.
Cain knew what to do, for he was taught by his father Adam as Adam was taught by God when God made coats of skin from the first sacrifice(Gen 3:21).
The sacrifice clothed them, as Christ's does us.


rookie wrote:
Brother Logic wrote:
The Woman is Israel.
Is this the same woman that Paul teaches about in Galatians 4:?
In Christ
Jeff
Most likly, as the woman in Rev 12:1 is.

P
PreachParsly


Ormly wrote:
rookie, I believe you have a serious spiritual problem.

I hope you have examined yourself to make sure that the problem isn't just in your eye or because he disagrees with you.

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sermonindex

Ormly wrote:

rookie, I believe you have a serious spiritual problem.

Folks,

Why are we continuing to debate with this individual? What's the point?

If you use scripture, he calls it "spam" (?)
If you share something you received from the Word, he accuses you of not knowing your bible?

And now he is attacking the character of people he does not even know.

I tell my oldest daughter to ignore my 4 year old son when he is trying to bother her or tease her. If she does that then he will just stop and go away.

I think we should try the same in this situation. Just a thought...

L
Logic

If you use scripture, he calls it "spam" (?)
If you share something you received from the Word, he accuses you of not knowing your bible?
I think I know what he means about calling scripture spam.
It is useing scripture that is irrelevant to the subject at hand, or without comments of how the scripture applies.

I see whole posts that are all scripture with no commentary, and I have no idea what is being meant by it, not to mention how it applies.

Furthermore, people say that they ''received from the Word'' and they realy are in error about it and will not recieve the correct teaching from the passage of Scripture that they recieved.

However, there is a polite way of conversation that should be held in all respects.

I apologize for seeming rude. I realy think this forum is the most family like, and iFeal as if i know all you as family.
I say, ''hay I haven't seen him/her for a while, what does he/she hqve to say.''

Lastly, I realy do hope thqt some are adtuely learning from me of all that I have to way.

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rookie

Brother Logic wrote:

Because God loved Him.
Cain knew what to do, for he was taught by his father Adam as Adam was taught by God when God made coats of skin from the first sacrifice(Gen 3:21).
The sacrifice clothed them, as Christ's does us.

I am sure Adam taught his sons. Yet there is still more. If Scripture says that Abel was a prophet of God then that means that God spoke to Abel. In the same manner we find that God also spoke to Cain. Now according to OT Scripture,

Ezekiel 18:

4 \t“Behold, all souls are Mine;
\tThe soul of the father
\tAs well as the soul of the son is Mine;
\tThe soul who sins shall die.
5 \tBut if a man is just
\tAnd does what is lawful and right;
6 \tIf he has not eaten on the mountains,
\tNor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
\tNor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
\tNor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 \tIf he has not oppressed anyone,
\tBut has restored to the debtor his pledge;
\tHas robbed no one by violence,
\tBut has given his bread to the hungry
\tAnd covered the naked with clothing;
8 \tIf he has not exacted usury
\tNor taken any increase,
\tBut has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
\tAnd executed true judgment between man and man;
9 \tIf he has walked in My statutes
\tAnd kept My judgments faithfully—
\tHe is just;
\tHe shall surely live!”
\tSays the Lord GOD.

In verse 9 we find that Scripture states that this man is 'just" and that "he shall surely live!"

Ezek. 18:21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

This was also God's heart for Cain "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? say the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?"

Now we know that man is unable to understand the ways of God. We know that man left to himself does not know how to please God. So therefore it is necesary that God enable man to repent and live. The example given to us of Cain and Abel are a clear statement of how God speaks through His Holy Spirit to men.



Most likly, as the woman in Rev 12:1 is.

Likewise is this also representative of the woman's birthing...

Proverbs 3:

11 \tMy son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
\tNor detest His correction;
12 \tFor whom the LORD loves He corrects,
\tJust as a father the son in whom he delights.
13 \tHappy is the man who finds wisdom,
\tAnd the man who gains understanding;
14 \tFor her proceeds are better than the profits of silver,
\tAnd her gain than fine gold.
15 \tShe is more precious than rubies,
\tAnd all the things you may desire cannot compare with her.
16 \tLength of days is in her right hand,
\tIn her left hand riches and honor.
17 \tHer ways are ways of pleasantness,
\tAnd all her paths are peace.
18 \tShe is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
\tAnd happy are all who retain her.

According to Scripture how does God dispense His wisdom?

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie

Brother Mahoney wrote:

Why are we continuing to debate with this individual? What's the point?

To love as the Lord loves us demands patience and longsuffering. We all are imperfect in our understanding of Scripture. It is through the patient dialogue that we all learn from one another.

God Bless
Jeff

R
rookie

Brother Ormly:

Is there a difference between these two people according to the working of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

John 13:

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,

What do you think about how the devil influences the decision's men make?

In Christ
Jeff

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PreachParsly wrote:

Ormly wrote:
rookie, I believe you have a serious spiritual problem.

I hope you have examined yourself to make sure that the problem isn't just in your eye or because he disagrees with you.

Indeed, I have. My comment is based solely upon his obstinance or what can be perceived by rational thinkers as "willful inability" to understand scriptures that work together to complement the issues..

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rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly:

Is there a difference between these two people according to the working of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

John 13:

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,

What do you think about how the devil influences the decision's men make?

In Christ
Jeff

The devil is an outside influence. Your "self" is your [inside] soul with it's lust and cravings. The former needs to be resisted and the latter needs to be purified. The new birth experience coupled with the Pentecostal experience gives one the new nature; Life of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit to succeed in what the Father purposed in Adam, from the beginning.

That is scriptural and unarguable and I am sorry if Mr. Mahoney doesn't see it that way.

R
rookie

Brother Ormly;

James 1:

12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


In both examples given to us in Judas and Ananias, we find that Scripture teaches that the devil was working to bring about sin in the lives of these individuals.

In this section of Scripture above, it is said of the individual, blessed is he who endureth temptation. Then Scripture states that God does not tempt, nor can He be TEMPTED with EVIL.

What is the source of all evil?

Then Scritpure states that man is DRAWN away OF HIS OWN lust, and enticed.

And now there is this verse...
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Here our own flesh conceives, or gives birth to a path in which sin is established in us. This birth brings forth death.

If we look to the lives of Cain and Abel, the first children of Adam, we are given examples of one who was warned by God not to pursue the sin that was waiting for him. We are also given an example in Abel who pleased God.

Have you ever considered how the devil plants his seed in man?

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly;

Have you ever considered how the devil plants his seed in man?

In Christ
Jeff

How did he plant it in Adam?

R
rookie

Brother Ormly wrote:

How did he plant it in Adam?

Satan got to Adam through his wife Eve...

Gen. 3:17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, “You shall not eat of it’:
\t
Adam chose to heed the voice of his wife instead of the voice of God. We find this is one of the ways Satan works don't we?

Jesus taught...

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Jesus is speaking of the choice one will have to make if their family does not heed the voice of God.


Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.


Satan is the source of all these situations where man is caused to stumble...in Adam's case, the cares and pleasures of life were used against Adam.

In Christ
Jeff

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rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly wrote:
How did he plant it in Adam?

Satan got to Adam through his wife Eve...

Lets see something here: Adam did NOT have a fallen nature when he was given the choice to make. What then was of him that he would choose to go the wrong way? Mind you, what I am after here is simply to point out man's freewill in his choosing[s] that never changed, even after the fall. I believe Adam began to make his excuses for his giving to Eve even before he partook. I can see him saying to himself: "Well, God gave her to me and what He gave can't be bad if she offers it to me...therefore". And then, of course we see him blame her and then God. I had kids like that.

Adam chose to heed the voice of his wife instead of the voice of God. We find this is one of the ways Satan works don't we?

Yes and he hasn't changed is ways. Now he uses things like new cars and boats and all manner of materialism along with fantasies and lustful thoughts easily pulled from our past behavior.

He was after in Adam what Jesus became, a divine-human family with Christ as its Head, the Word become flesh. He is now after the same thing in Born Again ones. That plan has never been altered in anyway way except man, because of Adam's transgression, needed now to be redeemed for it to continue and come to fruition.....That is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ..Jesus was "full of Grace and Truth". No one since has been so filled...and not without reason....the absence of hunger and consequently revelation.

The revelation of Jesus Christ is the key to our understanding and that not by books and programs of learning. Though necessary to a large degree, the deposit of the bible to our spiritual bank account is most profitable when the Holy Spirit seeks to have something to draw from, when our hunger for Christ brings us into union with Him; when we begin to see things from His perspective. "It is written" is given life. In this is to be found the speaking to our hearts concerning the things of the Father. In this is the still small voice discovered....and groomed.

Only this understanding will cut his legs out from under Satan who seeks to undermine and discourage those who would be Joint-heirs with Christ.


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