How to tell who is a witch?

I don't know if I agree on David Prince's sermon on witchcraft. He said that any woman who did not submit to her husband was to be considered evil and a witch. Now, my father is mildly retarded. He has a 90% blockage in his brain that caused several ministrokes and one major stroke. He would be lost without my mother there to make all the decisions. What do you think of her? Would she be considered a witch?

Ridiculous, immature-- laughable at best-- this statement from this minister.

It would be like calling a non-submitting wife an adulterer, or thief.

Please. Seriously. I know what he was possibly, though not solely, trying to get at-- "all sin is the same in God's eyes!" but this in effect is not that. This guy seems to have been reading too much into the Puritans (who were infamous for their paranoia of witches and would actually consider you a witch-- if i recally correct-- if if you had had an affair or stole or whatever, i.e., that you were basically de facto possessed in one way or another.)

Sad, that this is being preached. Hope people are more discerning than this and able to see through it for what it is: weightless.

Would need to listen to full context of the sermon of course for a full analysis but what you said seems enough.

To your latter statements: No, she would not, although your statements are somewhat confusing-- you say your father is somewhat... paralyzed psychologically yet you say "would his wife be considered a witch"-- when in context wouldn't you be referring to your father? You didn't say she was "unsubmissive"-- but I'm sure your father may be due to his illness. Of course though they are not witches, evil, or whatever. Illness is not a stamp of evil.

Jordan

Would need to listen to full context of the sermon of course for a full analysis [b]but what you said seems enough.[/b]

I doubt it. Derek Prince was a diligent teacher of God's word, even if some may disagree with his conclusions and viewpoints on some subjects. His teachings are very well thought out and very compact. You need to listen to them various times through to catch everything he is actually saying.

I haven't listened to this paticular teaching recently, but from what I remember from his tapes, Derek Prince defines witchcraft as any attempt of a human spirit to control another. That can be a manipulative pastor, husband, wife, etc. In this context his statement makes sense.

PassingThru

Would need to listen to full context of the sermon of course

Which would be prefrerable than to make poor comments before doing so.

Ridiculous, immature-- laughable at best-- this statement from this minister.

It would be like calling a non-submitting wife an adulterer, or thief.

I don't know anything about this guy and I'm not necessarily promoting what he said, but I would think this is the verse he had in mind.

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.

I agree with him, if that is what Derek prince says. Any women Who is rebelling agaist her husband is a witch (rebellious).

The example you use with your dad and mom doesn't show any rebellion. Your saying your mom is helping your dad because his stroke. How is that being rebellious?

This is interesting. This happend before I read in the bible that rebellion is witchcraft.

A while back when my husband and I had a little spif and I would not submit on his decision, thinking my way was best. That night I went to bed and had a dream and saw a witch right across from me. She was toying with something in her hand like she was performing a spell. I woke up and did not understand what that means until later on I read in the bible about rebellion is witchcraft. Then I understood that I allowed myself to be influence by the spirit of rebellion because I did not submit to my husband. OUCH! Though at first I did not see myself that way because I thought my way was right, it doesn't matter. This is how the Lord saw me! And the bible said it so I'm in the wrong and the bible is right!

We must becareful in being lead by feelings and not the word.

God bless, Lisa

I myself had to submit to my husband just this morning...He thinks I talk to much about God and he thinks I listen to too much christian music...We had a huge fight about the Lord and how I will not give up my God for him or even place God second in my life...instead I bought a cd player and now I can listen to my music anytime and all the time if I want...it is not rebellion it is not moving God aside it is respecting my husbands wishes...He does not have to hear about The Lord in any way for it is his choice...therefore I submitted to him but without giving up God period.
My husband told me how worthless he feels with me placing God first in my life and much more...now I have to re-arrange everything where my God and my husband are seperated in my life...
But where God always comes first.

Now as for your mother...no she is not a witch...your father cannot make decisions fully on his own therefore out of love your mother has taken on the responsibility of both roles...this must be hard for her...but it does not make her a witch it shows how much she loves her husband and her family.

Krispy, I would encourage you to be with the Lord first before posting on this forum. You have PRIDE in your heart and a self righteos attitude. Lets do more practicing of the word rather than teaching. There are many teachers already who think they are teachers, but have no clue of KNOWING HIM.

There are many teachers who can expound on the word, but the word is not at all rooted in them. Do you know you can expound on the word and still be a slumbering christian? There are many teachers who uses human authority to share the word because they have no spiritual authority.

rebellion is comparable to witchraft so it is the same as witchcraft. why do we fight over words, straining out knats? Because many are prideful and have to be right about everything. Just plain knit pickers. Lets just really get right into the heart of the matter.

May I enter this discussion for a moment.

Krispy, you were extremely truthful and extremely blunt (frank and straightforward and showing little delicacy or consideration).

(I say this as your brother who is guilty of this far too often)

I believe this is what myfirstlove was reacting to.

myfirstlove, you were also very blunt in your response. Now, since I am not without sin I will not cast a single stone at either one of you.

myfirstlove and Krispy, you are both right that rebellion is as bad in God's eyes as witchcraft, however, Krispy has a good point when he says that rebellion is not witchcraft.

God Bless you both and I hope we can steer this conversation in the right spirit of love.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

This is interesting. This happend before I read in the bible that rebellion is witchcraft.

First off... the Bible does [b]not[/b] say that rebellion [b]is[/b] witchcraft. It says it is [b]as[/b] witchcraft.

[b]1 Samuel 15:23[/b] [i]For rebellion is [b]as[/b] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is [b]as[/b] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.[/i]

I dont hear Christians calling stubborn people "idol worshippers"... so why would we call a rebel a witch? Yet, I hear preachers all the time telling people who they perceive as being rebellious that they are practicing a form of witchcraft.

This is not what this verse is saying at all.

It saying that in God's eyes, a rebellious heart is as ugly and sinful as witchcraft is. And a stubborn heart is as ugly and sinful as idol worshipping.

It's just amazing to me how people who supposedly can read simple English can take this verse and completely misunderstand it. I'm not referring to Derrik Prince because I havent heard for myself what he said. I am referring to some of the responses on this thread.

A rebellious person is not a witch. God is saying to Saul thru the prophet "Since you're so rebellious and stubborn... you might as well go all the way and be a witch or an idol worshipper because you're just as damned as they are."

C'mon folks... let's [b]read[/b] our Bibles more. A little more Bible reading and lot less dependence on people telling us what the Bible says will go a long ways to helping each of us understand scripture better.

As for the comments about Prince... if you havent actually heard the sermon, dont throw stones... and I'm not a big Derrik Prince fan.

Krispy

I agree with Krispy.

Krispy, I still encourage you to go and seek God.

Your heart is not right.

A lot of people can expound on the word and sound so intellectly right, but if only they KNOW God and see sin as he sees it and not as they see it.

Being blunt and honest does not mean you are spiritually forth right. There is a difference. Blunt is cockiness.

There are too many teachers on this forum. The sheep does not need more teachers, but more preachers who know their God. There is a big difference. So many who think they know doctrine and who may know a lot of doctrine, but do not know God and you can tell by their teachings that they do not know God. Just like you can listen to someone preach and can tell if they KNOW God. if they have walked in what they have taught and preached.

teachers won't be helping the sheep if all they know is doctrine.

I just thank God that He showed me how my sin looked like. How my rebellion to my husband was like witchcraft to Him.

I just wish there were more men who can show the sheep how wicked sin is. We got many who can share the greek meaning, but not many who can open people's eyes and help them see their wicked state, there need to repent right now before its too late. Instead, many men are just leading sheep into more debate or more doctrine and never getting deep down and exposing the motives behind the questions and helping them see their rebellion, there filthy heart!

We surely don't need more teachers. we got a lot here. We need Prophets!

I've just listened to a short portion of Derek Prince's teaching on witchcraft, although I'm not sure it's the same recording.

He is not equating rebellion with witchcraft, but rather inappropriate control/dominion over another person.

In my own words, here are some of the points he raised in the portion where he refers to cases of pentecostal/charismatic women who he classes as "witches" :-

* They are normally well intentioned.
* They seek to dominate the pastor/church/prayer group.
* They dominate their husbands. He is not the head of the family.
* Their children grow up rebellious as a [b]fruit[/b].

I think it would be appropriate for the verbatim quote (with surrounding context) that started this thread to be posted if it can be found.

PassingThru

If I might add something here...

Derek Prince defines witchcraft as any attempt of a human spirit to control another. That can be a manipulative pastor, husband, wife, etc.

It is one of my great wishes that people would halt on re-defining words with clear-cut meanings. The word Derek seems to be missing is "manipulator". He serves to confuse and mislead his congregation in stating this as he does. Some of those weaker-minded women with soft consciences will leave church believing they must not be true believers because they have at some time had conflicts with their husbands and are so "witches".

To the best of my understanding rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft in two ways:

1.)Practiced to its extent, rebellion is equally repugnant in the sight of God as witchcraft.

2.)Both witchcraft and rebellion have a common tie. Each are attempts to take control and power out of its natural place for ones own gain.

But, so long as we speak English, rebellion and witchcraft are [i]distinct words[/i]. If they weren't, our language would have discarded one of them by now.

I imagine Derek was trying to emphasize the evil nature of rebellion but it seems he did it clumsily.

But, of course, I am myself tended towards poor communication.

I happen to respect Derek Prince very much.

In his sermon, "Expelling Demons" he mentioned his regrets about men of God teaching people about demons (with good intentions) with knowledge and knowledge alone. In other words they taught on a topic they had no experience with. Which can lead people astray.

Before we begin refuting or supporting Prince's statement, I think it may be extremely beneficial to know what scripture he teaches this off of (knowledge) and what EXPERIENCE he is teaching from.

He may know a little more than just us "readers" of the Word...

DO
I Pet 4:2

It should be noted that in 1 Sam 15:23 where Samuel says "rebellion is as witchcraft" that the prophet is using a literary device known as a simile. To go back to 7th grade English class, a simile is a form of speech/writing where a person compares two distinct things using "like" or "as."

Thus, Samuel does not call rebellion witchcraft per say, but he does liken the two as belonging to the same family. So, with this in mind, to label somebody who is rebelling (and I don't mean simply disagreeing) a witch, such as an out-of-control, unsubmissive wife, is a very strong, but appropriate description.

myfirstLove wrote:
We surely don't need more teachers. we got a lot here. We need Prophets!

While your filling out the menu for our needs here could you also stick on the menu a tossed Grace salad with some good old forgiveness dressing? :-P

The single greatest problem with this thread is that the message in question has not been listened to other than by the original poster.

To extrapolate off of what amounts to possibilities and speculations is a very poor way to engage a discussion.

myfirstlove, it is not your place to decide what is needed or not needed here.

Original poster:

I don't know if I agree on [b]David Prince's [/b] sermon on witchcraft.

following posters:

I doubt it. Derek Prince was a diligent teacher of God's word

and I'm not a big Derrik Prince fan.

I happen to respect Derek Prince very much.

I've just listened to a short portion of Derek Prince's teaching on witchcraft, although I'm not sure it's the same recording.

myfirstlove, it is not your place to decide what is needed or not needed here.

It's O.k. to share like everybody else. What I've shared is very true.

I'm amazed how many let such arrogant, self-assertive, ill humor attitudes slip pass by so freely. But, then again many are rooted in the same sin.

Krispy, I believe I made righteous judgements. You are the one thats been making carnal judgements with your smart alec remarks and cutting people down with your self righteos attitude about the word. But no one really notice when carnal judgements are pass, mostly everybody is doing it, but when righteos judgement takes place, it awaken the souls and many will come agaist you for waking them up.

Yes, lets call Derek Prince clumsy and other names. I would ask those of you who share such name calling on Prince, where are you at? Are you perfect in all doctrine? God surely does not send us to hell for not having perfect doctrine, but surely we will go to hell if we do not bear our cross and lay it all down. Tell me something you who think you know doctrine, do you know Jesus? Are you one with Him thru the cross? That is more important than wrangling over words.

So many who think and want to be teachers, but surely do not have an understanding of the cross in their life! How can you even teach anyone if the cross is not in your life?!

My warning for teachers here is rom. 2

I would not have gotten off topic, but krispy's first post was a much distraction and has many times post publicly in the attitude he has shown. Belittling everybody because they do not cross there t's and dot their i's, because their doctrine was not perfect and the right words were not used.

Do you know that the devil uses head knowledge teachers to distract God's word from going into people's hearts? Yes, the devil uses many intellectual, knowledgable, dead teachers to deaden the heart and make alive the head.

If, I was like so many bringing about truth that does not hit the heart then I would be loved by so many, but I have become an enemy to some because truth was hit in the heart.

Oh, but if I was filled with ill humor and all sorts of jokes, flattering people with false mercy and grace, I would be so accepted because I am like the world. But, I am called unmerciful and ungracious because I do not put up with false knowledge, ill humor, and the likes.

Surely, if John the Baptist was on this forum he would surely get stoned by the religous. Those who know there doctrine, who look so outwardly clean by their knowledge, but are filled with wickedness and lust within.

Will continue to pray for this group. Thanks Greg for the many treasures on this site.

I will rest from posting, but will surely continue to read the texts sermons and take in the many godly preaching.

I am not taking my rest because of this incident, but have felt called a while ago to lay down from posting on the net, that I may spend more time in taking up in prayer.

Lisa

Everything he saids is within God's word in the bible, it really depends how you interpret it.

The Lord always emphasis the importance of submission to authority, the opposite of submission is rebellion, and rebellion is a form of witchcraft. They are all quoted in the scriptures.

Submission also applies to secular work and church order etc.

The word saids that the Husband is the head of the home. even he is not a christian.

But there is also " submit to one and other" too, so if the wife could be more knowledgable in an area then the Husband, the husband should not have so much male pride not to listen to the wife's knowledge in order to make the best decsion too.

It really how you look at it in balance, there are husbands that asking the wife to sin eg joining sex club or stealing and lying, then a christian woman should explain to the unsaved husband that it is against what she believes in love, it is still up to the husband to make the final decsion.

There has to be an order in the home to keep the peace. We cannot give way to one's decision is pride. Which is also within the bound of witchcraft.

In Stancy situation, I think she is very honorable to make decision for the husband as he is not capable. She is not rebellious, she is just stepping in for the husband while he is not capable at the time. She need to keep the order of the home.

We need to look at the word in balance, not to interpret it out of context, still Derek's teaching is completely correct.

Vivian :-)

If, I was like so many bringing about truth that does not hit the heart then I would be loved by so many, but I have become an enemy to some because truth was hit in the heart.

You are mistaken.

Surely, if John the Baptist was on this forum he would surely get stoned by the religous. Those who know there doctrine, who look so outwardly clean by their knowledge, but are filled with wickedness and lust within.

Do you overlook the sheer weight of that accusation? Do you recognize the requirement of proof to level such a charge? Do you also not realize that you yourself are culpable by way of extrapolating off the same original posting having not heard the very context that the message was given in?

Be very careful at whitewashing this forum that allows you free expression because you perceive an offense. There is no room for attacking members here and far too often there is a great reading into others lives by a fraction of their thoughts. That is a generalization but is implicit enough by way of others here either defending or detracting from a speculative standpoint. To repeat what was earlier well noted;

Original poster:

I don't know if I agree on [b]David Prince's [/b] sermon on witchcraft.

following posters:

I doubt it. Derek Prince was a diligent teacher of God's word

and I'm not a big Derrik Prince fan.

I happen to respect Derek Prince very much.

I've just listened to a short portion of Derek Prince's teaching on witchcraft, although I'm not sure it's the same recording.

[i]I am afraid that I may come and somehow find you not as I want to find you, and that you may find me not as you want to find me. Perhaps there will be quarreling, jealousy, angry feelings, selfishness, slander, gossip, arrogance, and disorderly conduct.[/i] 2Co 12:20 (RV)

There is a great lesson being brought forth through all this, hope we don't miss it.

myfirstLove, I have never since I have been here seen "anyone" post words like you have on your last post, you sounded as if you were just venting rather than really speaking words out of a sincere heart to get your point across.

I read your whole "last" post twice just to see if I was reading it wrong or more into it than I should, and it read the same both times but this statement below you wrote was the best part of that whole statement, and that might be good advise for more of us here, thanks for that last statement below.

myfirstLove write:
I am not taking my rest because of this incident, but have felt called a while ago to lay down from posting on the net, that I may spend more time in taking up in prayer.

Lisa

The other night my mother gave my wife a large box of some old drawings and writings from my early childhood. My 13 year old son looked at the box filled with pile of drawings, notebooks, and binders filled with my handiwork and exclaimed "Dad, you were like a little monk!" (What can I say...we didn't have a television untill I was in high school.) We spent a little time looking through the collection...drawings of dinosaurs, birds, UFO's, futuristic aircraft conceptions, bubble-cities on the moon, and binders of yellowed notebook paper filled with the cosmic thoughts of a schoolboy. My son just kept chuckling the whole time, while I on the other hand was wincing with light-hearted little embarrasment. In the end, I concluded that my son is much more sensible at expressing himself then I was at his age...

Now decades later I am still learning to express myself sensibly...often in this forum. Because in a forum we are forced to express ideas in tandem monologues, we can appear to be trying to 'teach' each other. This is of course not really the case...most people here, including myself, do not see themselves as teachers. Yet our ready assumptions can provoke us into offense.

I think I speak for most people here when I point out that we like to write not so much because we want to dictate our understanding to others, but because we are exploring and developing our own understanding. I believe we should first recognize this in ourselves, and then extend this friendly grace to others without judging one anothers motives for wirting. IN the end, our judgements of others invisible motives may reveal more autobiographical insight then we care to admit. And as a matter of practicality, let's not burden each other with the need for constant self-effacing disclaimers such as "This is only my opinion" or "I don't really know anything but..."

Writing, and dialogue is a very helpful exercise for the Christian. We are in good company when it comes to viewing each others' writing in this patient manner. Towards the end of his life, Augustine wrote a book called The Retractions, in which he listed his own...retractions. In it he summed up what what many of us are experiencing here daily at SI.

If God permit me, I shall gather and point out, in a work specially devoted to this purpose, all the things which justly displease me in my books: then men will see that I am far from being a biased judge in my own case. . . .

For I am the sort of man who writes because he has made progress, and who makes progress -- by writing."

God permits indeed...and we should permit one another as well.

Blessings saints,

MC

Well said MC and a grand quote as well.

Still holding out hope that the larger lesson here is not missed, the snowball effect that gained momentum ... The root of gossip ...

When someone says to me all that you've had to say... I would be a fool not to listen and [b]examine[/b] my heart. If you were someone who I felt wasnt in tune w/scripture, was out of step with the Lord, it would be easy to ignore. However, that is not the impression I've had of you.

I will prayerfully consider what you've said.

In the meantime, I have nothing more to say about this publicly. If you feel you have something to proove to everyone by continuing this on a public forum, I will have no comment and no response.

Few hours later...

Let's all lay off our sister, Lisa. Who knows what going on in her life that has led to this unfortunate incident. I dont understand how I struck a nerve w/ her, but I did... and I sense that there is something totally unrelated to me, this topic, and this board going on. Whatever it is, I think we should all hold her up in prayer to our sweet Lord. Only He knows whats going on.

Brother Krispy, this is nonsense, and totally not in the spirit on what you have just said in the previous quotes.

I read quite a bit of this post. I've seen some of Derek Prince's books through the years, but don't know him as a person, or his believes. I haven't read of his books and have not listened to this sermon...

...but here's some thoughts from my side...

For human nature, these are harsh words, but was the Bible ever written to please our affections?

I read of Christ calling people "Serpents! Offspring of vipers!"
Now that's going too far! To call someone that is rude, or not?

John even goes as far as calling some "dogs" (Revelations 22:15), now what has dogs got to do with sorcerers, fornicators and liars?

Well, if we look at Proverbs 26:11, it is quite clear that it is someone who goes back to his folly or sin!
"As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool returns to his folly."

Maybe this man, Derek Prince, was shown the utter darkness of this specific sin. Maybe that's why he can speak like that. When in the presence of the living God, three times Holy! Our sin becomes the force behind the hammer that drove the nails!

Just cautious not to throw the baby out with the bath water...

In His love
Joseph

I am entering back into this thread so that Krispy and I can leave this in peace.

I admit I did write my last post in much frustration. So I do apologize to all and Krispy for writing much in flesh and not allowing God to deal with me then.

Krispy, I'm sorry.

Krispy, I did not bring any problems out of my life to this forum. I was frustrated with you, in the way you wrote.

I know a lot of people say you can't really tell behind the writing. I disagree. It is the same as talking. Our speech and action do expose alot of our heart, our motives.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Just like my husband can read my post from his work and could tell if I wrote it out of flesh or the Spirit.

Krispy, I disagree with the way you shared about the verse on witchcraft though I understand what you are saying, but I couldn't continue in conversing with you on that because you belittle me and made certain comments that shut the door for me to say anything.

It just seems some here argue/debate a lot over doctrine because its birth out of just knowing about Him.

If we know Him, His word would be life to us and not mere words to use to fight each other with. We would see it as living, that He is speaking to us!

I do still encourage you (krispy) to allow God to examine your heart. I do say this in love and concern for your soul.

I am still going to take a break for awhile. Like I said before, God is leading me to this. We have a jelouse God ya know. Nothing should be above Him. He wants my whole heart and I want so much to give Him everything. I see I must! or else I become a dog again and go back to my own vomit. I surely do need more and more of Him, who keeps me from turning back to a dog

Oh, if we truly see how wretched and blind we are, how poor and sick we are without Him,we would be more dependent on Him seeing we truly can do NOTHING without abiding in Him!

What I learn about my experience on this thread is that I (self) am still alive. My heart is even stirred more to be completely DEAD that He would be so alive in me!!! Oh the SELF!!! Consume it in your fire, Lord!

Bless you all S.iers and leaving you all with the 1st commandment.

Mark 12:30
And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.

Joe, just read your post, brother.

I agree. Thanks for sharing.

Lisa

What a blessing Myfirstlove...this is what I love about the Church.

Our unity is not in seeing eye to eye...but in seeing Jesus himself exalted in our company, dwelling richly with us...his peace shared generously among a congregation of hearts that despite disagreements, are ultimately grateful for one another. The world defines unity in fleshly terms as conformity or consensus (to an idea) but we lay all of that down and put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. (In doing so we affirm that the 'conformity' we desire is towards the image of Christ.)

Amen.

 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.

 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.

MC

Well done brother, thank you for helping clear things... Am glad I had shelved an earlier response, you stated much of what I might have said.

How we engage each other is as important if not more so than [i]what[/i] it is we are engaging over. There is no doubt that the single, greatest contributor to strife and contention in these parts is assumption, or presumption of one another. How we frame our words and how we respond is where special care and considerations ought to come into play. It would be far better that we ask questions before assuming and ask our own selves whether what we have to say is in fact truly necessary, helpful or corrective unto edification if we perceive an error. That shouldn't make us paranoid, just considerate. Sometimes it is far better to just hold our peace.

Another thing is to keep in mind a broader picture. How these things are seen amongst a greater body of believers. It is a matter of perception again but I think it is helpful to take notice that there are any number of others peering into our conversations, hopefully even those 'outside' the faith. Do we give them only that much more fodder for the ideal that Christians are always fighting and arguing when we are in fact doing so? The question it begs is ... [i]Is this really worth it[/i]? Will it unbeknownest to us bring reproach upon that worthy Name that we hold to, the Lord who is all things and everything?

There is quite a difference between;

"[i]Is this what you are saying?[/i]"
As a question and ...

"[i][u]This[/u] is what you are saying"[/i]
By inference.

To go beyond that and after ones character is dangerous ground without hard facts. Sometimes they are evident in the reverse, by presumption, sometimes just at face value, we have to know the difference and if we don't we are better to keep our peace, keep it to ourself.

Am not wishing to beat a dead horse here, it turned out quite well by these admissions and praise God for that. It is a peculiar thing, this forum ... sometimes it is to let the battling go on, sometimes to intervene, sometimes it resolves itself. Just wanted to attempt to break down the process some and perhaps give ourselves some things to consider.

We cannot forget the spiritual context of where we are and what we are discussing, whatever the topic. We will strike some nerves no matter how careful we might be, it's inevitable. As Lisa well pointed out, the [i]self[/i] gains the ascendancy, has the upper hand, we forget our Lord is present, others are present. If we must assume anything, assume we are mistaken, assume we have misunderstood, assume all along that we may still be wrong as a backdrop, as a [i]possibility[/i]. It doesn't mean that it is so or should fill us with doubts or paranoia, just that not everything needs to be vocalized and not everything needs to be made or thought personal. [i]Play the ball not the man[/i].

Just food for thought, but how differently might this all have progressed with just a slight change in the way the first couple of replies had been couched? Or in the way those were perceived? Does the original post bear any resemblance to where we are now? Did the original not beg for some clarification and context at the outset? What about others who jumped into the fray ... Necessary? Helpful? Shooting from the hip? Just some questions to ask ourselves.

I tell ya, you guys have shaped and molded this fool in ways you may never truly know. It can be a very difficult thing to be a 'moderator' here and depending on how I might choose to look at it, it can be quite grievous at times or a great challenge. It forces one to [i]think[/i] and a lot of that is 'out-loud' and still quite loquacious (some day will get this distilled into fewer words hopefully). Could imagine it would be much easier if it was in a different setting, where conduct and rules of engagement were the primary attributes, say if we were discussing auto parts ... But there are great emotions tied to our strongly held beliefs and it is proven so by the challenges brought to bear on them.

[i] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.[/i]
Joh 13:35

Remember it's a [i]commandment[/i] not a suggestion. Would hope it would keep us mindful, sober and humble in our opinions and comments. I think that as Krispy pointed out, discussing doctrine and the scriptures need not always be seen as argument and debate, it can be and often is. To interject Lisa's thought again here; that of self concern and self preservation. But it is also a great misnomer and one of perception and that of an end in mind. Are we teachable and willing? That often comes to mind here. Have we distilled the great spiritual thinkers that are also brought up in other areas in this setting?

We are often befuddled that a great deal of things that ought to rivet our attention are seemingly pushed aside because of an impulse to forward only that which is already fit into our comfortable framework. That is a broad generalization again but keep well in mind the various places the Brethren may be. We have some quite young and young in the faith and some well traveled and quite worthy of all our respect and any number of those in-between. Let me leave this with an old out take from one of those 'elders' that frequents our surroundings;

Having been in positions of authority in many Christian contexts it is always difficult to know what to do when some effectively says 'if you don't do it my way I will leave' but ultimately if God has trusted you with something you have to do as your heart directs while all the time remaining open to what God might be saying through the objector.

I have often been tempted to withdraw from SI. Perhaps that might surprise some. But, contrary to public opinion, bible-teachers do not have hides like rhinoceros. Spurgeon once commented 'a kick which would scarce move a donkey will often kill a preacher'. This philosophy of Anthony Norris Groves has been my gentle rebuke again and again.

[i]what a blessing it is that the Lord's heart is so large, that He can help whenever He sees some good thing; whereas man withdraws, because he sees some evil thing, which is generally found to mean something that wounds his own self-love in the little scheme he had set up as perfection.[/i]

So often my temptation to abandon this group or that has been because they would not conform to the little scheme my self love had set up as perfection. What I was being tempted to do was to say 'if I can't be god here, I'm leaving' Most people with strong opinions will be tempted along this line sooner or later.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4046&forum=35]Where is Iwpray?[/url]

P.S. This also references one very looming objective not to be forgotten amidst those that may be a bit newer to these confines; There is a great deal of history and previous fellowship, a lot of tears and prayers and great love poured out from it's members. It is not to be accusatory in the least and I think there is some validity to tenure in these parts. Take note of longevity by the dates of initiation if you will. Take note that this is far more than a mere 'message board' that one has entered into. One post does not make a forum and the searching through the history made and past history being brought forth from all these great men of God being expressed in a variety of manner is rich and just waiting to be explored. There is a lot to plug into our frame of reference and a lot to ponder on, pray over, give ourselves to, I could but pray that we might avail ourselves of it.

Since I can't seem to still the thoughts here ...
Do take note of how much repetition there is in misunderstanding, the out take above a perfect example. It will continue as long as we forget that it is inevitable. What a curious statement! ;-) I think what I mean is, in this setting it is a given. How we wrestle with that will make all the difference.

Peace Brothers and Sisters and may the #24 car win another championship just for Krispy. :-? :-P
O I am in trouble now. :-P
Do you still have an excellent word for Mr Bill also?

I must enter in again because I think their is a confusion here and want to make clear.

I do truly apologize for sharing out of frustration. I apologize to krispy and all at s.i.

Please hear me and I might get stoned for this, but I must make clear that the words I spoken and shared on this thread are true and not a lie or made up. I believe that the Lord has shown me theses things concerning many on here, about the way we use His word and many teachers use it carelessly today. This much is a grievance to God!

I made the mistake of moses when he hit the rock with HIS ANGER and I truly apologize for that. For I could not even enter unto God in prayer until I have publicly confess my sin.

Please know, I say this in love and concern for the souls here. Yes, the young ones should take this warning so they may not follow after the sins of the older ones.

God bless, Lisa

Yes, my question was answered.