What is a lie?

Christians in Germany during WWII who were hiding Jews lied to the authorities. As enid pointed out, there seems to be a presidence set in scripture where this type of "dishonesty" is acceptable.

The question comes in... where do we draw the line?

When I was in the Marines I remember interrogating Iraqi soldiers who had surrendered to our unit, and being deceitful in our questioning in order to get them to give us information. Now, I wasnt saved at the time, but we did what we did in order to save lives, not destroy them. (depending on your perspective)

Of course, there are those here who think it a sin to even be in the military... but I think you can see what the point is I'm trying to get to here.

I think in regards to this question, one must seek out the Holy Spirit and be convinced in his/her own heart what is the right thing to do. When faced with a situation where deceit may be a viable option, the Holy Spirit will let the child of God know what to do.

I do know one thing for sure... deceit used for selfish gain is never right.

Krispy

Good point, Mike. You're on a roll this morning.

Krispy

are we here trying to comprimise a sin?

No, we're not at all.

Let me ask you, Suddenly... if you were hiding Jews in your attic in Nazi Germany, and the SS troops came to your door and asked you, "Yes or no... are you hiding Jews anywhere on your property?" ...what would you do?

Would you consider it a sin to say "no"?

Krispy

Suddenly... I'm confused by your post. Who is George Platt? And who are you responding to?

Krispy

But if you are covering up a youth pastor who has a double life. You all love his day life as a sweet loving pastor, and the other side of his life is a serial sexual predator.

I dont think anyone here is suggesting that this would be ok. I'd like to think we're all rational thinkers here. :-)

Krispy

Krispy said

Let me ask you, Suddenly... if you were hiding Jews in your attic in Nazi Germany, and the SS troops came to your door and asked you, "Yes or no... are you hiding Jews anywhere on your property?" ...what would you do?

Would you consider it a sin to say "no"?

Sorry to do this Krispy...

If Martial Law were declared in the U.S. and all "subsersives" that could be linked to terrorism (ie, fundamentalist Muslims, fundamentalist Christians) were rounded up... would you deny you were a Christian?

What if they were shooting everyone who were remotely religious. Would you deny Christ to save your life?

Would Jesus forgive us for this "little white lie" to save our life?

No I would not. I've been in life and death situations, so I do know what it's like to be in situations similar to that.

But my denying Him or not denying Him is not what makes me a saved man. A Catholic may die for his faith, but he is not saved because of that any more than a Muslim would be saved for dying for Allah. We are saved by faith alone, and not works, lest any man should boast.

God doesnt make exceptions to the rule based on bravery at the end of a gun.

If He did, shoot me now and lets get this over with.

Krispy

I've read this thread now, and the link Mike Balog put to the older thread, because since a week past Saturday, I have been unable to escape the same question because of a dream I had that night.

Further, today, I found myself wondering how can we be sooo hazy about what 'a lie' is, if we are to keep the Church truly pure both from being defiled, or from falling for true lies, ourselves?

That Saturday, I was at a wedding during the day. To my surprise, the leader of the church in that village which I had attended for a year, and had parted from because of the unwillingness of that leader to allow the Spirit to move amongst its members (There is a much longer story here - twenty five years long - what happened to me had happened to others previously.) approached me with surprise that I was still in touch with the groom's family. He then went on to bring up the topic of Replacement Theology. (I will revive the thread of that name to post a few comments there.) I shared my perspective, countering some of what he was saying, mainly with New Testament scripture. Eventually, he slid away into the gathering on the church lawn.

So, that night, he was in the dream as a small character who was putting a large, very fat wrinkly black slug onto a huge half of a slice of bread. The other half of the slice was then used to conceal the slug, and the thing was cut up into narrow strips, partly to make them small enough to eat, but partly to conceal the content of the sandwich. I woke up not having been able to bring myself to eat the first strip which was offered to me. I was nauseated. Which, incidentally, is how I felt latterly at that man's church, before I finally stopped going to the trouble of driving to it only to find I couldn't bring myself to go in.

It may be important for you to understand that I was one of a number of adults who had to stop going to that church, all of whom were receiving warning of different kinds, from the Spirit. One person not directly connected, had had a vision of a large reptile hovering above it. It seemed nothing we could do as individuals could break this hold, and unity in the form of an alternative local gathering of saints was also difficult to obtain, through a certain amount of confusion in people's minds, as to the 'spiritual' way forward.

It is only now, as I've begun to understand how many different gospels there are out there, that I've begun to understand the patterns I now see.

So, ten days since the dream, I am asking myself 'What is the lie represented by the slug?

Is it a whole doctrine?

Is it a system such as Cessationism?

Is it doubt of the written word of God?

Is it the commercialisation of faith in the writing of books and the offering of various 'aids' to 'enrich' one's Christian 'life', offered at a [u]monetory price[/u]?'

Maybe the 'lies' that distress God can all be rolled up under the title of 'religion', which is not as purely practised as James defines it.

Krispy, I would hope that if you did this, Jesus would turn to look at you and that you would have the humility to go out and weep!

I dont know how you misunderstood me on this, but obviously you did. Probably more so than anything else I've ever written on here that you may have misunderstood.

It's kinda distressing how I can be on this website for as long as I have... written as much as I have... expressed my beliefs as boldly as I have... and yet be so completely misunderstood on such a simple thing as this.

Baffles my mind. I'm not even going to offer a clarification for what I said.

If you read it in the context of everything else I said on this thread... perhaps you'll grasp what I was saying.

Krispy

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, [b]or maketh a lie[/b]: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I have some thoughts. But I find that I kill threads with my thoughts, and this is an interesting thread, I'll refrain.

You all have great ideas, keep it up!!

Compliments said

I have some thoughts.

As part of my search to understand 'what is the gospel?' this 'what is [u]the[/u] lie?' remains a matter for serious consideration.

There is a great deal on SI which describes the lie, by way of complaints about dead churches. These take many forms, from complaints about a humanistic 'gospel', to descriptions of Christians who are deceived by aspirations of riches through the prosperity movement, or, who don't recognise their role in distributing either spiritual or material wealth to the poor.

I think it would be useful if we could re-interpret what we are seeing, into terms of [i]Is it a lie?[/i] - so that we can remind ourselves of the corresponding truth in the Bible, or as it applies to us in Christ.

This morning, I realised I [i]do[/i] know the foundation of 'the lie'. It is here:

[color=006699]Romans 1:17 - 25 (Young)
For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written,

`And the righteous one by faith shall live,'

for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest [i]it[/i] to them, for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable; because, having known God they did not glorify [i]Him[/i] as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened, [u]professing to be wise, they were made fools[/u], and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.

Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves; who did change the [u]truth[/u] of God into a [u]falsehood[/u], and did honour [u]and serve the creature rather than the Creator[/u], who is blessed to the ages. Amen. [/color]

And

[color=006699]Psalm 14:1
A fool hath said in his heart, `God is not';[/color]

Thus, one of the biggest 'lies' in our time, is the Theory of Evolution.

It is far easier to attribute scientific findings of similarities and differences to [i]the Fall[/i], or, to the possibilty that God has continued creating new things despite the Fall. Having said that, I see the Hebrew word for 'rested' is used only 11 times in that sense, and 47 times as 'ceased', so maybe He hasn't [i]made[/i] anything new except [i]in Christ[/i].

This would be in line with Paul's comment in

[color=006699]Romans 8:18 - 23
For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [i]are[/i] not worthy [i]to be compared[/i] with the glory about to be revealed in us; for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [i]it[/i] --in hope, that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. And not only [i]so[/i], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting--the redemption of our body; [/color]

But in Hebrews 4:4, where the sabbath rest of believers is likened to God's resting in Genesis, there are four English options for the word in Greek: restrain 1, rest 1, give rest 1, cease 1.

There are other verses which state He is always involved with His creation, holding it together, notably

[color=006699]Colossians 1:14 - 19
...in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins, who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. And himself is the head of the body--the assembly--who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [i]things[/i] --himself--first, because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, [/color]

I concede He may not be 'making', but rather [i]holding[/i].

The other [u]big lie[/u] of which Jesus warned us many different ways, was 'the cares of this world'. Where do we find these warnings?

How could we define (if at all) a [u]legitimate[/u] 'care' for a Christian?

: Linn (Dorcas) suggested I put this here. This is part of a dialogue that we have been having in PM, and she thought that this would be beneficial in this thread to which I agreed. Below is one of my replies to Linn. I have edited it for clarity.

Compliments wrote:
Thanks Linn for your reply.

Quote: "We are struggling with victory over sin, and yet this was basic in their thinking"

We have the victory today in Christ Jesus when we recognize that we are dead. As Paul said, "Reckon yourselves to be dead unto sin and alive unto God"

The problem with NOT having victory over sin is the fact that we are struggling to overcome sin via our input of obeying the law or any law that we put to ourselves in thinking that 'this' or 'that' will help us overcome sin.

The only remedy for sin is placing our complete faith and trust in what Jesus did on the cross. Once we begin to add or take away from this equation, sin lieth at the door.

I need to drive this home, because it's becoming a reality in my own life. It's important that we hang unto this liberty that we have in Christ Jesus lest at anytime these things will slip.

I am tempted. Temptations comes in many forms and they change from one level to another level, but when you recognize that your dead, sin will not have dominion over you. You got to want to walk in the Spirit. And you can't do that by means of the law or laws and rules that you have established or your Church has established for you in your life to make you righteous before God. You are made righteous before God by the act of trusting that the report of Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross is true and by placing your faith exclusively in Jesus Christ and what He has finished on the cross.

You and I are dead because we have been crucified with Jesus Christ. We are DEAD and our life is hid in Christ. We are now living out of a new life, a totally different aspect of what we knew before. We are walking in the Spirit when we place our total faith in Christ.

Let me share more on this subject of death. There are many lies in the Church. No where in the bible does it say that "we are sinners saved by grace". Thats a lie. You and I are not sinners, we have been called to be saints and are saints. We have been called to be perfect even as He is perfect.

A sinner is one who continues in sin, but we, who are dead to sin, no longer sin; because His SEED remaineth in us.

However, those of us who do continue in sin after we have believed, are sinners, because a sinner is someone who continues in sin. But if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the Righteous.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

He is talking about believers that have erred from the truth. If we err from the truth, it means that we have received lies, which means that we cannot properly love God or do His will nor are we free.

God is not willing that any of us should perish but all would come to the knowledge of the truth. This verse is for our benefit.

We must realize that we are dead, the victory is in the cross.

"Near the cross, Near the cross, be my glory ever, when my raptured soul shall find, rest beyond the river."

I agree with the first portion of that chorus, however, our rest is not beyond the river, our rest is in Jesus Christ today. Come unto me and I will give you rest. That rest is what we must enter into today. The Kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent take it by force. Every day believers are pressing into the Kingdom of God. And no can get in there unless he hath clean hands and a pure heart, neither anyone who loveth and maketh a lie.

Victory over sin is standing on the fact that we are dead. When temptation comes, we must count it all joy that this tempation doesn't come because of the devil but that God has willed that the devil would try us. We must know the word of God so that we might rebuke the devil. We must stand our ground.

When someone says that we are sinners saved by grace, we must nip that in the butt immediately.

Oh yes, Paul said that he was the chief of sinners. I am going to give you something that I believe the holy Spirit just showed me as I was reading that.

Paul wasn't saying that he was the chief of sinners because he thought of himself as a sinner. Rather, he was ordained to be the Chief of sinners, Chief of the gentiles. The 12 apostles were made to be a witness to the Jews, Paul was to be made a witness for the Gentiles in whom he was ordained to be the Apostle over them.

I never saw that until this very moment. Thank you Jesus

The struggle ends when we stop struggling to overcome sin. The deeds of the law shall no man be justified, so why try to overcome sin when we have been made MORE than a conquerer. "More than a conquerer" is someone who didn't have to do anything to conquer. It's like the wife who gets her husbands paycheck. She didn't do the work, he did.

A good example of this is found in Gideon, tho the men who were left behind because there was too many of them, God wanted only 300 men to go and fight this massive army, yet when they came back with the spoils, those men that didn't go got a share of the booty. They were more than a conquerer.

In legalistic churches, even though they have a form of godliness on the outside, sin is rampant in that church, problems like you've never seen before. When we try to place our works against the cross of Christ and we think that by our works we are made righteous, we are living in sin, in fact we are enemies of the cross.

Thats why our faith is looked down with scorn, because ALL religions in the world DO something to obtain their righteousness. Ours is simply faith and what Christ has done, not by works...lest any man should boast.

A believer may say in himself, praying will make me righteous towards God, but I tell you it's a law, and it must be rejected. Faith and faith alone is to be received. We must pray yes, pray pray pray, with a right motive.

God be with you

Hi Compliments, and thank you for posting this.

The problem with NOT having victory over sin is the fact that we are struggling to overcome sin via our input of obeying the law or any law that we put to ourselves in thinking that 'this' or 'that' will help us overcome sin.

[b]The only remedy for sin is placing our complete faith and trust in what Jesus did on the cross.[/b] Once we begin to add or take away from this equation, sin lieth at the door.

John 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Isaiah 30:15
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Let us not be those who 'would not'. :-(

[b]Victory over sin is standing on the fact that we are dead[/b]. When temptation comes, we must count it all joy that this tempation doesn't come because of the devil but that God has willed that the devil would try us. We must know the word of God so that we might rebuke the devil. [b]We must stand our ground[/b].

When someone says that we are sinners saved by grace, we must nip that in the butt immediately.

Let me share more on this subject of death. There are many lies in the Church. [b]No where in the bible does it say that "we are sinners saved by grace". Thats a lie.[/b] You and I are not sinners, we have been called to be saints and are saints. We have been called to be perfect even as He is perfect.

From Finneys "Breaking up the Fallow Ground":

7. Lying. Understand now what lying is. Any species of designed deception for a selfish reason is lying. If the deception is not a design it is not lying. But if you design to make an impression contrary to the naked truth, you lie. Put down all those cases you can recollect. Don't call them by any soft name. God calls them LIES, and charges you with LYING, and you had better charge yourself correctly.

How innumerable are the falsehoods perpetrated every day in business, and in social intercourse, by words, and looks, and actions--designed to make an impression on others contrary to the truth for selfish reasons.

Bother, I hope you don't mind my mentioning this, and don't know if 'butt' was a typo, but the proverbial phrase is 'nip' it 'in the bud'.... meaning, that the leaf or flower will not appear thereafter.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Hi Psalm73,
You've put an interesting slant on this topic, which ties in with what RobertW said in an earlier post in this thread. He pointed out that God's definition of 'lie' in scripture, is associated with issues to do with the kingdom of God.

It was not till today I found myself reading John (below), connecting with Robert's observation, and sparking a new train of thoughts.

1 John 2 Young
21 I did not write to you because ye have not known the truth, but because ye have known it, and because [u]no lie is of the truth[/u].
22 Who is [u]the liar[/u], except he who [u]is denying that Jesus is the Christ[/u]? this one is the antichrist who [u]is denying the Father and the Son[/u];
23 every one who is denying the Son, neither hath he the Father, [he who is confessing the Son hath the Father also.]

Compliments said

Though the name of this thread is "What is a lie"? The question in regards to "doeth truth" is, "What is truth?". Interesting topic Linn.

Reading from 1 John also made me take in what a shift of emphasis and meaning there is in scripture from 'We be Abraham's seed' (John 8:33) to 'your Father' (John 20:17).

It is not only Paul who re-interprets the Old Covenant terms of engagement, which once were the [i]raison d'etre[/i] of His people, making them sound [i]old[/i], but here John.

And of course, the gospel writers report that Jesus tried to explain things to them, but even He had to stop, saying 'I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.'
John 16:12

Preceded by 7 'Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;' Jesus continues 13 '[b]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself[/b]; but whatsoever he shall hear, [i]that[/i] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 [b]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [i]it[/i] unto you[/b]. 15 [b]All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [i]it[/i] unto you[/b].

For myself, I am finding that 'truth' is not what I thought it was - something about facts and information - but more an acknowlegement of the utter reality, purity and invincibility of God's [i]being[/i]. As John (again) puts it, in this context

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that [u]God is light, and in him is [b]no darkness at all[/b][/u].
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and [yet] [u]walk in darkness, [b]we lie[/b], and do not the truth[/u]:

The theme of darkness comes up again in 1 John 2:
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

I note there is a vital (or should I say fatal) discrepancy in what the man walking in darkness is [i]saying[/i] about his walk.

I also note that an observer will be able to tell whether he is telling the truth or lying, by whether they see him loving or hating.

Perhaps this is why these verses have been seized upon by some.

John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me [u]through [b]their word[/b][/u];
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [i]art[/i] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: [u]that the world [b]may believe[/b] that thou hast sent me.

It is difficult to read the ecumenical movement into the sort of unity Jesus was describing here, in which both He and Father would be in us as evidence (to us) of our [i]being[/i] what we claim.

Linn said: To be honest, we have Jesus bold statement 'I am the Truth' to believe into. This ought to work in us to make us doers of truth, wouldn't you say?

We all know that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, but what is it exactly and can lies proceed from the Almighty?

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I speak as a man!!