You're Special - The Modern Gospel in a Nutshell

Saints,

My wife was handed a tract today in an elevator. She took it home, read it, smiled, and then handed it to me. I read it and decided to post it here. Those that read it and scratch their head as to why I posted it are encouraged to listen to "Ten Shekels and a Shirt". We got into a little disagreement over this tract. She thought it was "sweet"; I thought it grossly misrepresents God and produces two-fold children of hell. When you read this, imagine you're an unbeliever, an atheist, a person living a good life, and making good money. Take particular notice at the one sentence that mentions "sin" and see if you can make heads or tails of it.

[b]You're Special[/b]

Believe it nor not - no one else is just like you. Your physical appearance, your voice and personality traits, your habits, intelligence, personal traits - all these make you one of a kind. You are not the product of some cosmic assembly line; you are unique.

But the most important part of your identity is that God created you in His own image. The Bible reveals God's total interest in you as an individual. God knew you even before you were born. He has plans just for you, plans conceived in love.

As we appreciate God's constant concern for us, we really begin to grasp the awfulness of sin. He loves you and me so much; yet how often we go our own way, turning our backs on Him. God's designs for our lives are blocked; His mercies do not come to the unwilling.

But even here we are precious to God, for He continues to love us even when we pay Him no mind. He still sees us as individuals with great value. God is not an unfeeling, cold-hearted monarch of the heavens. He feels our pains; He shares our sorrows. He cares, and He considers each one of us important enough to love.

In fact, He loves us so much that He gave His only Son to die for our sins. Because you and I are special to God, He wants to forgive us and give us a full, meaningful life. When we trust in Jesus Christ and let Him put our lives together, the Bible says that we become "God's masterpieces created in Christ Jesus." Can anyone be more special than that?

You are valuable to God! If you have never trusted Jesus Christ for your salvation, you can pray something like this today:

* generic sinner's prayer, ending with: "Right now I ask You to be my Saviour so that I can live as the special creation that You intended me to be".

Any thoughts? ;-)

Brother Paul

Sounds like something pastor Rick Warren wrote. :-?

Blessings Greg

Sounds like something pastor Rick Warren wrote.

I think fundamental tracts like these are just as dangerous as evolutionary, JW and Mormon literature. Maybe even more so (though that is debatable). Once I began explaining the contention I found in it, my wife finally saw it. I told her, "Honey, you're saved, you [i]know[/i] the true gospel of holiness; tracts like these are targeting unbelievers." Then she saw the humanitarian gospel.

Most churches nowaday preach a man-centered message, so their tracts will be the same.

We have to wonder how God views all of this, of us toying with His message, as though it is a toy.

Yet another reason why we have no revival.

God bless.

Yes, this is a classic example of the 'man-centred' goespel.

I recently made the mistake of allowing a Christian drama group to come to my youth group and take the meeting. They did several dramas representing or rather misrepresenting the gospel and i was just sat there cringing in my seat, thinking 'what have i done?'.

The focus of their message waws on our valuable we are. The trail of thought goes a bit like this:

-Your Great- And God loves you - And He sent His Son to die for you -And He has a great plan for your life- now who wants to become a Christian?

The modern man centred gospel focuses on the worth and value of man- the proper old gospel focuses on the worth and value of God.

I was thinking about this last night as i read something i had printed out from SI. In this article the writer called himself a 'worm', as old Christians often did. That set my thinking, 'i wonder how many 'Christians' today who are a result of this modern gospel would say of themselves 'I am a worm'?. Then i thought about the old hymn, 'Amazing Grace' and i wondered how many of today's Christians- the products of the 'Your special' gospel could really sing 'Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved A WRETCH like me'?

The old and proper gospel is so much more wonderful than this suger coated version. The truth is:

'you are worse than you thought yourself to be, much worse. You are an offense to God, you have lived your whole life despising His goodness, not valuing His Greatness, and not matching up to His holiness. Your sin is against God, so Great a God, so good a God, your sin is infinetly great because "The God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified" (Dan 5:23). You must one day stand before this God and give an account of your life. Standing before the perfect and holy God who dwells in unaproachable light He will search you life and soul and everything you have done will be brought to light. Compared to such a God you and I are filthy, wretches, lost sinners, and God would be right to throw us into hell forever. But as bad as we are, as unworthy as we are, God has made a way of salvation, a way for us to be clean, a way for us to be made right, and that was at the cost of the blood of His dear and holy Son Jesus, See the love and grace of God when while we were still sinners Christ died for us, the just for the unjust. God now offers a full and complete pardon to sinners on the grounds of the death of His Son who died for sinners. He promises that anyone who turns from their sins and comes to Him through His Son will be saved. So come to Christ, as bad as you are, call upon His Name, throw youself at His mercy, He is willing and mighty to save and He will not cast you out. He is wanting to save you not only from hell but from all your sins, to come and live inside you,to be your God, and to make you a new person. So repent and believe in Jesus Christ'

'you are worse than you thought yourself to be, much worse. You are an offense to God, you have lived your whole life despising His goodness, not valuing His Greatness, and not matching up to His holiness. Your sin is against God, so Great a God, so good a God, your sin is infinetly great because "The God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified" (Dan 5:23). You must one day stand before this God and give an account of your life. Standing before the perfect and holy God who dwells in unaproachable light He will search you life and soul and everything you have done will be brought to light. Compared to such a God you and I are filthy, wretches, lost sinners, and God would be right to throw us into hell forever. But as bad as we are, as unworthy as we are, God has made a way of salvation, a way for us to be clean, a way for us to be made right, and that was at the cost of the blood of His dear and holy Son Jesus, See the love and grace of God when while we were still sinners Christ died for us, the just for the unjust. God now offers a full and complete pardon to sinners on the grounds of the death of His Son who died for sinners. He promises that anyone who turns from their sins and comes to Him through His Son will be saved. So come to Christ, as bad as you are, call upon His Name, throw youself at His mercy, He is willing and mighty to save and He will not cast you out. He is wanting to save you not only from hell but from all your sins, to come and live inside you,to be your God, and to make you a new person. So repent and believe in Jesus Christ'

Hey! I want that on a tract! :-D
I have never ever found one in public...

The modern gospel ignores the utter falleness of man, something the great evangelists of the past did not ignore.

Modern theology has man being "good" and "able" to come to Christ based on a physcological manipulation and agreeing with certain doctrines which appeal to men. The heart is not the goal of the modern gospel, and thus preachers do not strive with God first for Him to change hearts.

Let us be found faithful brethren.

You start handing tracts out like that, and you'll walk alone. You start preaching like that and you'll preach alone. I remember last year inviting some Chi Alpha college kids to go downtown with me on a Friday night to do some ministry and tell people about God. They were all gung-ho and ready to hand out their tracts...until I stood up on a stone monument and began preaching true, old-fashioned repentanace, using Hebrews 9:27 as my springboard. Man, you should have seen their faces! Totally mortified. It was as though they were hearing the true gospel for the first time. That was the first and last time we've gone out together.

You put a [i]true[/i] gospel message on a bumper sticker and your car can get vandalized, firebombed. You wear a [i]true[/i] gospel message on a shirt and you can get assaulted. No one objects to the harmless shirts that say: 1 cross + 3 nails = 4-given.

Brother Paul

PaulWest wrote:
Man, you should have seen their faces! Totally mortified. It was as though they were hearing the true gospel for the first time. That was the first and last time we've gone out together.

forgive me brother but i couldn't help myself, i just started laughing so hard, just imagined the scene.

i recently was at an older brothers house, his son is a drug addict just came out from prison. He has been raised in a Christian home , hes heard the true gospel, we where talking and his sister said the classic God loves the sinner but hates the sin,

and i said no, God hates sinners. Every face in the room turned and looked at me, i said to him, God absolutely hates sinners, he hates you to, in fact i believe you as being raised in a Christian home and heard the gospel for 25 years, you are going to be much much worse of them many other 'greater' sinners because you knew the truth and rejected it.

He never comes around anymore.

edit: but i go to him still :-)

i was just sat there cringing in my seat, thinking 'what have i done?'.

Yes, brother. I know what you mean. I've been there, done that. I remember once we took the youth from our church to another church that was hosting a "Power Evangelism" team of body-builders that rip-up phone books and bend frying pans on their foreheads to prep kids for the "me" centered gospel. Then they had a pyrotechnique show with great explosions and smoke. I was young in the faith when I agreed to chaperone the youth for this event. Half-way through the show, it finally dawned on me:. It was all such a joke. I imagined Peter and Andrew coming from the upper room after Pentecost and smashing clay jugs on their head to attract the Jews to hear the gospel. I imagined Bartholomew tearing huge scrolls in half. It all seemed so asinine, so lame, so man-contrived.

When the altar call was given, the kids flocked to the front, chewing gum, grinning, looking around. After they prayed, they walked back, still grinning, chewing gum, punching each other in the arm, etc. Mind you, this was [i]after[/i] they had been told by these muscle-bound buffoons that they were now [i]saved[/i]!

Do you remember those weird pictures with multicolored patterns, that if you stared at them long enough - zone your eyes just right - a 3-D image was supposed to suddenly appear? Well, that's what it was like when I discovered the modern gospel - it suddenly jumped out at me in 3-D intensity! On all the Chrstian TV stations, radio stations, tracts, etc. It was ubiquitous like bacteria. How shocking it is to view a supposedly harmless tract under the God-given microscope of gospel discernment. Unhygienic doctrine sudddenly appeared on laboratory slides once thought to be spiritually aseptic.

Brother Paul

Every face in the room turned and looked at me

This is the dear price we pay, brother. By and large we will be ostracized like every faithful and obedient servant of God has been throughout the ages. Everything about gospel is diametrically opposed to how unregenerate man thinks. This is why I always cringe the moment before I open my mouth to field preach. Some preachers will lie to you and tell you it is a pleasure to street preach, but I agree with John Wesley - to me it is a cross. But, unfortunately, there is no other way. I know that as soon as I open my mouth, the "modern gospel" delusion will rise up in the minds of my hearers and stir up great anger and disdain for what I am doing. I really don't like this feeling; I would much rather be accepted and praised and find unity and and peace. Any preacher who tells you they actually [i]enjoy[/i] and look forward to open air repentance preaching is not right and is probably doing it for the wrong reason.

But, like you already know, this is counting the cost of coming to (and obeying) Christ's call on our lives. Not everyone is called to street preach like this, but everyone is called to serve in some self-denying, uncomfortable capacity.

We sail a bloody sea to heaven's shore. The modern gospel is like the wind that instead of filling our sails, incites the waves.

Brother Paul

i posted this for itself in the articles section, but ill "slide" it in here to, it is short but so true

Where, O where?

(J. R. Anderson, "A Warning to Ministers" 1851)

At the end of the seven days, the Lord gave me a message.
He said, "Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman
for Israel. Whenever you receive a message from Me, pass
it on to the people immediately. If I warn the wicked, saying,
'You will surely die,' but you fail to deliver the warning, they
will die in their sins. And I will hold you responsible, demanding
your blood for theirs." Ezekiel 3:16-18

Where are the ministers who will rouse this sleeping generation to . . .
the solemn realities of the eternal world,
the shortness of time, and
the certainties of judgment?

Where are the preachers who are weighed down with . . .
the interests of immortal souls,
the difficulties of dealing faithfully with them, and
the solemn account that is to be rendered for them?

Where, O where?

At the risk of being labeled "modern" and "man-centered", I must disagree with much of what is being said here.

First off, I think most everyone can agree with this statement:

The modern gospel ignores the utter falleness of man, something the great evangelists of the past did not ignore.

Compared to such a God you and I are filthy, wretches, lost sinners, and God would be right to throw us into hell forever. But as bad as we are, as unworthy as we are, God has made a way of salvation, a way for us to be clean, a way for us to be made right, and that was at the cost of the blood of His dear and holy Son Jesus,

"God hates you, you evil, worthless, stupid, lost, filthy, sinning, dirty, worm dog. In fact, He will take great delight in punishing you endlessly for your vileness."

"However, since He is so loving and gracious, God sacrificed His own son so you can escape the torture He would love to lay on you and, instead, continue to worship Him forever as a worthless servant redeemed by grace. Don’t forget, though, you killed God’s son!"

Exaggerated? Perhaps, but I suspect this hard-nosed, “turn or burn” approach is usually more fleshly than godly. Yes, people need to hear that their sins have plunged them into darkness, are contrary to a holy God and have aligned them with God’s enemies. Yes, all will be judged and the enemies of God punished. This fact needs to be established. What makes me furious is that many only seem to know how to preach condemnation. Many pastors harp year after year on their converted congregations about their worthlessness and sinfulness. Does anyone else see the deception in this!? Believers are holy sons and daughters of God meant to walk in kingdom authority and victory! Pastors who continue to flog believers about their unworthiness have set aside grace for works, don’t understand the authority of believers and are a mouthpiece of condemnation. Furthermore, those who always resort to verbally beating believers and unbelievers most certainly lack discernment and probably love. Many unbelievers already know they are guilty, their conscience condemns them.

God wishes that none should perish.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only son.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

Jesus didn’t come to condemn the world but to save it.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

They were all gung-ho and ready to hand out their tracts...until I stood up on a stone monument and began preaching true, old-fashioned repentanace, using Hebrews 9:27 as my springboard. Man, you should have seen their faces! Totally mortified. It was as though they were hearing the true gospel for the first time. That was the first and last time we've gone out together.

But... sniff... I am special.

I will not be quick to despise unbelievers and will attempt to preach love and grace, using a hard word only when it is needed to clarify God’s holiness or man’s transgression.

I'd wager your greatest achievements that evening were: hardening unbelievers; creating division in the Body; discouraging nervous believers who were taking a step of courage/faith; swelling your pride; and "earning" some holiness/acceptance with God.

This is out of line, friend. You don't know me, or how I preached, or the tears that were in my eyes that evening. How can you leap to such judgmental and pessimistic conclusions from reading one post? The "pride" you accuse me of is actually reflected back on you; commenting in such a way to a brother whom you've never met displays a [i]mountian[/i] of pride and an overall immaturity in the faith.

I'll ask you (and everyone else in these gracious forums) to please [i]pray[/i] before repsonding in anger or frustration. Let's get to know each other before bringing the hatchet down.

Brother Paul :-)

'you are worse than you thought yourself to be, much worse. You are an offense to God, you have lived your whole life despising His goodness, not valuing His Greatness, and not matching up to His holiness. Your sin is against God, so Great a God, so good a God, your sin is infinetly great because "The God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified" (Dan 5:23). You must one day stand before this God and give an account of your life. Standing before the perfect and holy God who dwells in unaproachable light He will search you life and soul and everything you have done will be brought to light. Compared to such a God you and I are filthy, wretches, lost sinners, and God would be right to throw us into hell forever. But as bad as we are, as unworthy as we are, God has made a way of salvation, a way for us to be clean, a way for us to be made right, and that was at the cost of the blood of His dear and holy Son Jesus, See the love and grace of God when while we were still sinners Christ died for us, the just for the unjust. God now offers a full and complete pardon to sinners on the grounds of the death of His Son who died for sinners. He promises that anyone who turns from their sins and comes to Him through His Son will be saved. So come to Christ, as bad as you are, call upon His Name, throw youself at His mercy, He is willing and mighty to save and He will not cast you out. He is wanting to save you not only from hell but from all your sins, to come and live inside you,to be your God, and to make you a new person. So repent and believe in Jesus Christ'

GLORY!!!

Get it in print!!
:-) :-D ;-) 8-)

That's the kind of preaching that shook the nations during Wesley's day... Do it again Lord!

Blessings,
-nathan

My apologies for being judgmental, you are correct, such assumptions were not fair and I honestly ask for your forgiveness.

That said, the intention of the post wasn't to slam you guys or defend a tract, but to point out the peril of constantly preaching a harsh, condemning word.

If some of the criticisms seemed personal and are not true, please translate them to general trends in certain realms of the church - not yourselves. I stand by my points and warn against street preaching driven by competition, works or ego.

Was the entire post out of line? Does anyone see any validity to my concerns?

i like this chapter, it hit me recently when reading it.... we need to warn people much more then what we do...its an awful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
Isa 13:2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
Isa 13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
Isa 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 [b]Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.[/b]
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 [b]And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.[/b]
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isa 13:14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Isa 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
Isa 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
Isa 13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
Isa 13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

now i think this chapter clearly shows what God thinks of sinners, what is going to happened to them, but i clearly believe they who "experienced" and are going to experience his red hot hatred through out eternity, i believe they want to be warned..... maybe they will not listen.....

but if i love them i must be honest with them

Hmmmmm said:

i clearly believe they who "experienced" and are going to experience his red hot hatred through out eternity, i believe they want to be warned..... maybe they will not listen.....

but if i love them i must be honest with them

Amen brother, we must.

Mister Cheez there is a lot i could say in objection to your comments, but one thing i will say is thank you for at least urging our caution that we dont misrepresent God.

I personally find this one of the most awesome and fearful things about preaching- the chance that we will do God an injustice. If we represent God only as angry, righteous, holy we do Him an injustice, it is half the truth, but half the truth is not enough, it is error. But also if we represent God as only Love and grace and mercy and compassion we do Him an injustice also. The truth is He is all of these things in infinite proportions all at once, if we present any other God we present an idol and then say 'This is your God!'. The truth is God is more righteous, holy and angry with sinners than we can imagine and yet there is a very real sense in which He loves, and pities and desires their well-being more than we can imagaine.

MisterCheez you said:

I will not be quick to despise unbelievers and will attempt to preach love and grace, using a hard word only when it is needed to clarify God’s holiness or man’s transgression.

But the point is to our generation the 'hard word' is very often needed, in fact it is crucial, for the reasons that you yourself give because of God's holiness and man's transgression.

Also when we are preaching the gospel, our aim must not just be to see as many 'respond' as possible, but firstly to honour God who has been dishonoured, to show people plainly the greatness, the glory, the holiness, the goodness and love of God that sinners may see the enormity of their sins against such a God. This must be the start of true repentance. It is not just enough that someone admits they are 'bad' like everyone else, and that they need saving- they must come to the place where they feel terrible not just because they have lied, stolen, cheated etc, but that they have sinned against God.

To our generation a harsh message is very often needed, because they are very wicked and loving their wickedness, they have everything they could possibly want and are not searching for God in the main, but are happlily and defiantly going against Him not knowing that the righteous punishment will be an eternal hell.

And Mr Cheez, my friend, we must come to the place where we see hell as a right, deserving punishment for sinners. I know i deserve it, because i am a wretched sinner and i make no apologies for saying it like that. Also God has shown me something of the seriousness of sin because it is against Him. Sin is infinitely serious because it is against an infinietly glorious and good God.

A great part of the preachers job is to show people their sins and to preach against them. God told Ezekiel to tell the people their transgressions. The prophets would then follow this sin preaching up with warnings of judgment and the wrath of God that would sweep them away if they did not repent. Then quite beautifuly as always with God's messengers those hard words are followed with an offering of mercy, with God outstretched hand to a rebllious and sinful people saying 'Yet return to me and i will have mercy on you'. God always follows up His warnings with the offer of mercy, and an invitation or pleading of love to the sinner on the basis that he repents and leaves his sin and old ways and turns to God.

I encourage you to read Ezekiel.

I think that the end of gospel preaching is to get people to this place:

"you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have dealt with you for My name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel,” says the Lord GOD.’” Ez 20:43-44

MisterCheez the love, mercy and grace of God is all the more wonderful when you know yourself to be a wretch, to be desoerately wicked and hopelessly depraved and deserving of God's wrath and eternal punishment in the misery of hell. When you come to that place and yet you hear of God's offer of mercy through the gospel of His dear Son, you are broken, overwhelmed because of your sin, and yet God's love and gracious provision even at the cost of the crushing of His own beloved Son.

Yes, when you come to understand this Jesus will become exceedingly precious, sin exceedingly sinful, God exceedingly kind and gracious. In a word this is repentance of heart, this is the change of heart that the Holy Spirit induces, but the preacher, the human instrument must not work against but with the Holy Spirit to this end, and what a glorious end it is when a sinner realises the seriousness of His crimes against God, that God was not constrained by the sinners worth to save Him, because God was already infinetly happy with His Son, and could have thrown rebellious man into hell and still be complete. And yet because of the overflow of God's goodness and love and grace, He took it upon Himself to be mans Saviour and in the Person of Christ, God died for His rebellious creatures as a creature by hanging upon a cross of shame bearing our sin and being crushed under the weight of His own wrath and righteous judgment. So God invites man to believe and repent and he shall be saved!

Is not such a realisation a wonderful realistaion! This is the beauty of the true gospel!

My apologies for being judgmental, you are correct, such assumptions were not fair and I honestly ask for your forgiveness.

Apologies most graciously accepted, dear brother! I understand these topics can be grossly misconstrued. You have all the right to be apprehensive when it comes to stuff like this! I guarantee that I am even more critical than you when when it comes to people misrepresenting the gospel through the unctionless preaching of "God hates you" without tears. Zealous and without-knowledge brethren have the tendency to grab a single Ravenhill quote (out of context) and a verse of God-hates-sinners scripture and team it up with a cloudy, loveless perception of John Wesley's or Finney's ministry and hit the college campuses and streets with a vengeance. I agree with you: such do great harm to the Kingdom of God.

That said, I suppose I could have worded my post differently. I apologize for that. Those Chi Alpha guys are still my friends; one of them teaches youth group in my church on Wednesday nights...and has been greatly impacted by street evangelism. He's actually gone out (all by himself!) to the "Quad" - the area for public speaking - on the Texas State University campus to read scripture and answer hecklers' objections.

I think it is also important to note that I totally disagree with the notion that one can preach a hard gospel word while at the same time neglecting the poor, fatherless, widows, orphans.

Brother Paul

(edit) I apologise for the abysmal errors in the original. I typed it in a hurry and didn't get a chance to proofread. We're extremely busy here at the funeral home!

when a sinner realises the seriousness of His crimes against God, that God was not constrained by the sinners worth to save Him, because God was already infinetly happy with His Son, and could have thrown rebellious man into hell and still be complete. And yet because of the overflow of God's goodness and love and grace, He took it upon Himself to be mans Saviour and in the Person of Christ, God died for His rebellious creatures as a creature by hanging upon a cross of shame bearing our sin and being crushed under the weight of His own wrath and righteous judgment.

Saying that God was not constrained by the sinner;s worth to save him is too vague. Certainly, we do not have the "worth" gained by good behavior, cleverness or any of our own inventions. We can't earn grace.

However, many preachers stop here and fail to point out the "worth" God gives us by virtue of his behavior towards us. We do have worth because God made us, loves us, wishes that we wouldn't perish and desires that we all come to repentance. Furthermore, He was willing to bear His own wrath in our stead.

Saying, "because of the overflow of God's goodness and love and grace, He took it upon Himself to be mans Saviour" doesn't seem to do justice (in my mind) to the worth God gives us. We often preach His love and sacrifice like an afterthought or grudging concession. Of course this is not intentional, but often we are so concerned about trying to play the Holy Spirit and convict people into true conversion that we clobber them with their worthlessness and ignore the value God gives all of us.

God is love.

"The reason the mass of men fear God, and at bottom dislike Him, is because they rather distrust His heart, and fancy Him all brain like a watch." - Herman Melville

Melville's observation is telling, some of us are so theological that we miss the emotion of God and fit Him into systematic boxes of holiness, love, justice, etc. Yet, all throughout the Bible, God is very emotional. His behavior in the OT certainly portrays a jealous God, a jilted lover. Song of Songs doesn't make too much sense to the crusty theologian we views God like a machine.

Primarily painting overpowering, terrifying, systematic images of God in the minds of people may actually cause them to despise Him because such a god doesn't seem good.

Who wants to serve a god who gleefully anticipates tearing away the slippery bridge out from under the feet of sinners and plunging them into Hell?

Yes, we need to explain the consequence and trespass of rebelling against a holy God - especially to the stiff-necked. But there seems to be a much larger dynamic going on.

When God created Adam, Eve and creation, He was well pleased. He fellowshipped with them and walked with them in the garden. In the beginning, there is little evidence of a nonchalant, self-sufficiency in God - nothing to emphasis man as inconsequential. On the contrary, man was the crown of creation.

Saying that God is self-satisfied and needs nothing isn't really saying much. Yes, God existed without man and was perfectly fine. But, for some reason, He created mankind and seemed thoroughly pleased with the initial setup - fellowship. Man was given dominion/stewardship over the earth and allowed to enjoy God and creation.

When Adam and Eve fell, we've misinterpreted God's act of banning them from the Garden as anger when it was really love. Nothing could be worse than if they ate from the Tree of Life and were able to live forever in such a fallen condition.

We have this notion that a holy God and sin are so contrary (which they are), but fail to recognize that God still met with Adam and Eve in person after they fell. Furthermore, when Cain killed Able, God met with Cain in person asking where Able was and He eventually put a mark on Cain promising to avenge Him if anyone hurt him. So Cain committed murder in the OT and God didn't strike Him down, but the first person to screw up under the Law was put to death for collecting sticks on the Sabbath. He was merciful from the very beginning and has made a type of “restoration” possible in which men can be born again and will one day inhabit a new heaven and new earth.

There is a much larger dynamic than a holy God who hates sin. Bible history confirms God’s love for man, not as an afterthought but as a primary thought. His just punishment of sin and wickedness was not the initial goal, but a heartbreaking consequences to man’s rebellion.

We need to be careful to portray God's love as well as His holiness and justice. He pictures Himself as a loving father, not just a king.

Sorry for the rambler, but I wanted to shed a little light on considering a larger picture of God.

Curious to know your thoughts…

these are just my thoughts on how vile and wicked we as sinners are... and i believe its very important that we understand this, when we do the love of God becomes so much bigger.

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, [b]which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar[/b]:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

its quite interesting to see that the sin is so great that it takes a coal so hot an angel need a tong to grab it????? to purge the prophet....

people say ohh God loved us so much he send his only son..... this is true....but this was the only thing that could do it because we are so so so infinite wicked and vile, and if we do not understand this,

how can we appreciate rightly what it is God has done for us? when we See ourselves the way God sees us.

Mister Cheez, i wonder if you read what i said. Let me remind you:

If we represent God only as angry, righteous, holy we do Him an injustice, it is half the truth, but half the truth is not enough, it is error. But also if we represent God as only Love and grace and mercy and compassion we do Him an injustice also. The truth is He is all of these things in infinite proportions all at once, if we present any other God we present an idol and then say 'This is your God!'. The truth is God is more righteous, holy and angry with sinners than we can imagine and yet there is a very real sense in which He loves, and pities and desires their well-being more than we can imagaine.

I agreed with you that w emust be careful not to present God as only an angry judge. There is a tenderness, compassiona and love in God for His creatures that is beyond comprehension- this is why He pleads with sinners to repent. Again i echo what has already been said that even God's firey warnings about wrath and judgment are given in love because if He didnt love He would not warn but would just pour out the wrath. If we love like our Master we as His messengers will speak all the truth we know about all thos hard subjects of divine wrath and righteous judgment and hell, otherwise we are not loving the people, not honouring God and are not sent from God.

And my friend, the gospel becomes all the more wonderful when you realise that God didnt need us, but has done all that He has done for man in Christ because of the overflow of His goodness and grace and love. I agree with you - God's love is the cause but it is certainly not our worth or value that is the cause. The fact that God did put such a high value on us to sacrifice His beloved Son for us, speaks more about His great love than our own value and worth.

Maybe we are starting to split hairs now. But i do think it is very important that we are God centred in our gospel preaching and not man centred. I am scared at how easy i can slip into a man-centred message. The kindest thing we can do for the people is to show them the awfulness of their sin and then show them the all-sufficiency and merit of our Saviour Jesus Christ and point them to Him. But in so doing lets be careful to preach a message that exalts God and humbles man, for this is the intention of the gospel. Man is seen to be vile, and unworthy and full of sin, God is seen to be great in mercy and love and grace, man is humbled, God is exalted, man is saved and happy and God is glorfied!

PW,

My opinion on tracts and the like with these statements is that they do tell some truth, but it is what they are not saying that is the problem. So I rejoice that they preach Christ, but I just stay committed to preach sin, the cross, law, righteousness, judgment, and hell, as well as God's love.

I used to study these falicies of modern preaching, but it made me angry and I ended up talking about it all the time. Now I am just focused on presenting the whole truth, and making sure my message is a close to the truth as is possible.

There will always be false preachers, true preachers, and everything in between, we just have to make sure we stay in the Word and preach the same.