Do all Catholics go to Hell?

My family has a deep heritage in the Catholic Church, including at least one Catholic Saint and many people devoted to the church and to Jesus. My grandmother at her funeral was recognized as one of the most faithful women in the entire state of Illinois for her devotion to Christ and her service in the Church.

Now I know that my Grandmother walked with Jesus, she had even supposedly gone to a priest for consolation over the fact that I became a protestant. Luckily for me, the Priest told her that Baptists weren't all that bad.

Now I know on this forum there is an anti-Catholic bias that is painful for me to even deal with... I chose to leave the Catholic Church because I knew that many of the teachings contradicted what the bible said... but I also know of many people who remain in the Catholic Church while maintaining a personal relationship with Jesus.

Historically we see these roles played out to their maxim by Martin Luther and St. Francis of Assisi. Martin Luther never wanted to leave the Church but was forced out. He in fact wanted to reform the Catholic Church from the inside, much like what St. Francis, St Dominic and many of the Monastic orders had done throughout the centuries. Instead he was forced out by the politicization of the reformer's message.

Martin Luther came to genuine faith in Christ in the Catholic Church and had every intention of staying part of the church... why do you think it's impossible to do the same today?

Hi Ian,

I know how you feel. My family is also very active in their catholic church. It caused a real stir when I told them I was a born again believer.

I personnally believe there are genuine believers in this church. We should look at the fruit of the tree and not in which vineyard the the tree is found.

Peace,
Martin

Much of Catholic doctrine is wrong, but I do see that many have faith in Jesus.

In my opinion, we will not see as many Protestants as we think we will in heaven and a whole lot more Catholics than we thought we would see.

Thanks Krispy, it is good to remember what exactly the Catholics 'believe'.

...but I do not believe that all Catholics will go to hell.

There is only one salvation. Honest, sincere belief in anything else is honest and sincere error.

Amen.

The RCC has a spirit behind it; all one has to do is walk into any RCC sanctuary and approach the narthex. Look up at the dead, wooden christ festooned to the wall. Look around at the carved figurines and watch people bow before them and cross themselves. Consider the bloody, tyrannical history of the RCC. Ascertain the RCC's current regard for men like Luther and Tyndale, Huss and Wycliffe - they are still counted as heretics. Witness the Knights of Columbus where Catholic men are blindfolded as part of their initiation ceremony.

Use this as a litmus test: Imagine the RCC is new religious movement, founded and organized within the last 50 or so years. All the trappings and trimmings are the same: the elaborate, priestly garb, teachings on purgatory, mariology, transubstantiation, confession booths, forbidding marriage, venial and mortal classifications of sin, the one, true, original "Mother" church assertion, the open condemnation of men like Spurgeon, Wesley, William Tyndale. The audacious claim that we wouldn't have the Bible as we know it had it not been preserved by God through their "Mother Church".

Would we label it a cult? A horrible, lying, wicked cult? If we knew this cult had tried 50 years ago to keep Bibles out of the hands of not only its laymen, but the secular world also?

There are so many things; I was raised RC, confirmed, and my mother was a eucharistic minister. I have just as much right to say what I am saying about the RCC as anyone in these forums, and I speak from years and years of experience. I have sat down with priests and deacons and jostled heated scripture volleys. One priest that I have a personal relationship with is a dear man from Malaysia. Such love the Lord has given me for him! We go out to lunch and talk after Catholic burials. I ask him questions and I listen; he asks me questions and then he listens. I have been blessed to share the gospel with him and he always bows his head and gets silent, his priestly garb forgotten. In the end, I can see that he is perplexed, doubting his own religious system, and he always asks me to pray.

When I am with him, I don't feel like a furious Elijah itching to show up the false priests of Baal; I feel compassion, love, concern, yearing. I want my dear priest friend to come to the glorious knowledge of the truth and be liberated from religious bondage. Surely, this is the spirit God imparts when we honestly come in contact with such people. They are not villians; they are blinded by a villian. I know from experience that when a RC adherent gets genuinely born-again, well, they tend to leave the system. They may tag along for a few months and continue going to mass, but the spell is at last broken, the chains fall off.

But I do not claim to have grasped anything save salvation through faith in Christ alone. Perhaps there is a way God [i]can[/i] keep certain saved brothers and sisters in the RCC system, though it defies my pathetic, earthly logic! Ah, then again, God has an interesting track record of operating in the realm of [i]il[/i]logic and humbling my intellect.

Just take a look at Savonarola or Martin Boos at Galneukirchen!

Brother Paul

Krispy, I understand your concerns. You and I are very alike on this topic. I was appalled when I first got into reading church history and the terrible injustices done by Catholics in the name of Christ.

I am not Catholic, I do not want to be Catholic, I know that their concept of Mary is very dangerous, the Eucharist is abominable and God will judge their false teaching in the end.

I also lean towards the historicist viewpoint and see the office of pope as the fulfillment of antichrist/man of sin spoken of in the bible.

Having said all that. I cannot in good faith pronounce that all Catholics are doomed. Hear me out, I believe that apart from Christ there is no salvation, salvation is by grace through faith, not of works so that no man may boast. I believe that Jews are going to hell without Christ, Muslims are going to hell without Christ, Hindu's are going to hell without Christ, Catholics are going to hell without Christ and Protestants are going to hell without Christ.

I just cannot say that all Catholics are without Christ.

Notice that is not really what I am saying either. There are those in the Catholic Church who have put their faith in Christ alone. They are "Catholic" by name alone.

My point tho is they can not believe and trust in Catholic doctrine and be saved at the same time. They are not compatible.

Well said Krispy. We agree on this issue. Now, if I could just convince you to become Reformed and read the ESV. 8-)

When men like AW Tozer and Leonard Ravenhill predict that not even 2% of professing Protestant Christians in America are genuinely saved, should we really spend our time throwing stones at the Catholic Church?

KrispyKrittr said

A lot of folks on here probably think I bash Catholics. Not so... it might interest everyone to know that our next door neighbors are very very close friends of ours... and they are Catholic. Hard core mass 3 times a week Catholics.

I love Catholics... which is why I feel so strongly about this issue. If I didnt love Catholics I wouldnt give a rip.

Krispy

Veeeeeerrrryyyy gooooood Mr. Krittr. Now that we have this on record, one of our inquisition agents will contact you shortly.

He will ask, "Wonderful day.... are you a friend of Calvin's or Armin's?"

You will answer, "I speak Latin, not Greek."

I have not said this. I am not here.

God has an interesting track record of operating in the realm of illogic and humbling my intellect.

Amen Brother!

JaySaved wrote:

Notice that is not really what I am saying either. There are those in the Catholic Church who have put their faith in Christ alone. They are "Catholic" by name alone.

My point tho is they can not believe and trust in Catholic doctrine and be saved at the same time. They are not compatible.

Well said Krispy. We agree on this issue. Now, if I could just convince you to become Reformed and read the ESV. 8-)

Site, please, Jay, or how can we even take a look? And what is the ESV, and where do I find it?

Blessings,

Forrest

The ESV is the English Standard Version of the Bible

http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/

It is also on biblegateway.com and crosswalk.com

I enjoy it.

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Who are we to say what God has done with anybody.
Be they Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, or Jew.
In Christ Jesus, none of these or any other make a difference to God. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

"Even to those that believe on His name."

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Or: "not to the Catholic only, but also the Baptists."

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

Ro 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Ro 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Or: "not of the Catholic or Baptist, etc."
;my own addition: but all He hath called.

Those that are called in Christ Jesus are Christians, what ever or who ever they may be when called. Matthew 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Catholic Christians? Yes, but they are no longer Catholic, even though they go to a Catholic Church. They are Christ Ones, Christians, "whom they were first called Christian in Antioch." Whom were Jew and Gentile.

In Christ: Phillip

I go to a Baptist Church, but I am not a Baptist, I am a Christ Person, with His last Name as all Brides have the last name of their Husband. Much more than just a Bride, but a son of God, and a member the only Begotten Son of His Body and His Bride the Church.

"Christ in you the Hope of Glory"

Question for all????? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, and He has saved you from death, hell and damnation, unto eternal life in Him?

iansmith wrote:
My family has a deep heritage in the Catholic Church, including at least one Catholic Saint and many people devoted to the church and to Jesus....Now I know on this forum there is an anti-Catholic bias that is painful for me to even deal with... I chose to leave the Catholic Church because I knew that many of the teachings contradicted what the bible said... but I also know of many people who remain in the Catholic Church while maintaining a personal relationship with Jesus.

From another who has family ties to Catholism (Both grandmothers and my mother, married to Presbyterians) there is a culture issue here that many outside the Catholic Church don't see.

Yes, there is great danger to the souls of all those who follow the straight Catholic line. After all, the RCC changed the Ten commandments, allows worship of idols, and declared Mary to be equal to Jesus, and may have meant, equal to God when they proclaimed Mary the 'Queen of Heaven'.

Well, Mary, a good Jewish girl, would be appalled at the idea. The highest honor was hers, to be the physical human mother of the Messiah.

But when you are raised in a cult, even if you read the Bible (which is generally disouraged in the RCC), you have a lot of trouble breaking free. Yet, reading the Bible, and finding out the truth about Jesus, about all the rules of God that the RCC breaks routinely, from calling a brother Christian Father, to venerating and praying to designated saints do not take away the power of your family ties to that cult over you. And then, to place the Pope above Christ, and any Priest also, to forgive sins? That's blasphemy. But how do you undo a lifetime's teaching?

You can, however, stay in the RCC, and shine your light about Jesus, walking out the Fruits of the Spirit, and do a great service to the cult members, which are only a hair's breadth away from the truth. Yes, it's hard to be a born again, charismatic Christian, and stay in the RCC. I think it's dangerous to the soul, to lend credence to a cult, which, the RCC is, more's the pity.

My Mom left the church because she couldn't handle it. Then she lived in fear and guilt all her life, and copying the method's of the RCC, became a controlling, manipulative person, paranoid, narcissistic, all qualities that I have recongnized in the RCC proper, the Curia, for I have studied this religion that I have never followed.

I've been to Mass with friends at Christmas, I've taken communion there, and to me, Jesus was there. But Jesus is in me, so He was there. And my friends were Born Again Catholics, with one foot in each camp, unable to break the occasional habit of going at Midnight Mass, because it held wonderful memories for them.

I place the blame on those who inculcate the beliefs that keep Catholics imprisoned in their minds to a culture they can't break free from without disowning their family. The teachers of the RCC, such as the Jesuits, subtly discourage reading the Bible, and without the Holy SPirit, how can a Catholic even understand what the RCC says is wrong? And God will hold the teachers to blame more than the followers, who have been brainwashed from birth.

And though I know seperation from any cult is necessary for the safety of the soul, instead of even one condeming thought, let us pray that many will be set free before the RCC becomes the agent of the Anti-Christ in full, instead of in part as is now.

Blessings,

Forrest

Quote:

Who has the right understanding of scripture?

Only One, God the Father conveyed by the Holy Spirit through the Life of Christ in the believer.

I know many X Catholic's who have embraced Christ and no longer attend the apostate Catholic organized religious man operated Church, which is not the Body of Christ His Church. I also know many who are in the Catholic Religion and are evangelizing Catholics with the good news of "Christ in them the Hope of Glory".

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Phl 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

Phl 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

Most of all even in this apostasy, Jesus Christ is preached. How many of us go to the Catholics and give them the truth of the Gospel of Paul instead of standing back and throwing rocks and condemning them to Hell.

Philippians 1:17-21 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

Philippians 1:17-21 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

"Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, "

Who is the supply of the believers in Christ? It is not the Catholic or any other organized religion, it's by the "supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ".

Let us praise God for the Catholic Church, for even in their apostasy Jesus Christ is Glorified by God through the Holy Spirit of bringing forth out of religion true believers, which He has been doing for a long time, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.

Let us be ready when they come. We have the truth of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" and it needs to be given to them that are without that God has sent to within the Body of Christ His Church.

In Christ: Phillip

Hello...

As an individual living in a predominantly Roman Catholic area, I can say with much certainty that many Catholics that I know do not understand (let alone practice) much of what is part of the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. Sure, they attend services, funerals, weddings, etc... But most of them do not know WHAT they believe -- or WHY they practice as they do.

I know many ex-Catholics who became believers while still attending the Roman Catholic Church. Quite a few of them continued to attend the Church for a while -- until prayer and study (over time) allowed them to comprehend the heresy of the Church. More times than not, they simply "figured out" that much of the customs and practices are extra-Biblical. This made them feel uncomfortable, and led them on a search for truth. Of course, this ultimately led them OUT of the Roman Church.

The initial question is puzzling:
[i]Do all Catholics go to Hell[/i]?

The answer is quite simple:
[u]ALL PEOPLE GO TO HELL[/u] -- except those who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ!

This includes Catholics, athiests, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses -- but also Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, etc... A person with a relationship with Christ will eventually realize and discern between the truth and error within the faith. I am not talking about debated doctrines (eternal security, tongues, the rapture, hair coverings, etc...), but the undeniable truths of the Body of Christ (repentance, faith, charity, baptism, etc... as is included in Hebrews 6:1-2).

We should be careful about approaching Catholics (or even individuals within other "pseudo-Christian" cults) with verbal animosity. We should rejoice with those who rejoice and comfortably share with those who claim to know and have a relationship with Christ. Yes, they may still "practice" customs that are part of the Roman cult. However, allow the Lord to guide your mouth -- and let it always be full of God's love and compassion. God himself will lead them to the right "watering hole" (Psalm 23).

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hello...

As an individual living in a predominantly Roman Catholic area, I can say with much certainty that many Catholics that I know do not understand (let alone practice) much of what is part of the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. Sure, they attend services, funerals, weddings, etc... But most of them do not know WHAT they believe -- or WHY they practice as they do....

We should be careful about approaching Catholics (or even individuals within other "pseudo-Christian" cults) with verbal animosity. We should rejoice with those who rejoice and comfortably share with those who claim to know and have a relationship with Christ. Yes, they may still "practice" customs that are part of the Roman cult. However, allow the Lord to guide your mouth -- and let it always be full of God's love and compassion. God himself will lead them to the right "watering hole" (Psalm 23).

:-)

Amen and Amen!!! If I can talk about Jesus to anyone, regardless of their titular denomination, and we can agree on the really crucial doctrines that put us in Jesus and Jesus in us, I refuse to make my dislike of their personal religious culture a barrier between us.

Yes, I know that often a simple word like grace or faith can be seen differently, but until I ask and discuss the basic salvation issues, Jesus as the Son of God, fully divine, fully human, begotten of Mary by the Holy Spirit, and my only means of redemption and salvation, how can I even tell? The label means nothing to me, except to be careful in making sure we are talking the same language.

I will respect their culture, having none of my own, and even enjoy it in their presence, knowing that their light and mine shine just as brightly to God.

And if their culture keeps them ensnared, I know whom to talk to about it - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Forrest

Now I know on this forum there is an anti-Catholic bias that is painful for me to even deal with...

Think that may be just a perception brother, it does come up and a search through the forum archives would show a variety of discussions.

I think it is painful as well at times in manner over ... mandate, or perhaps both. It is one thing to 'know' what is taught by the construct that places everyone Catholic into it's fold, but I have made mentioned of this here before, I do not believe even the vast majority know just exactly what the Church construct actually holds to.

I didn't realize it until far down the road, well after being raised and brought up in this environment.

It really is a manifold subject and problem. One of the things I have picked up along the way is that to many a Catholic they would prefer to hold on to what is now an age old tradition that (needs it's own defining, but here I mean ... longevity)'we' as the 'other' persuasion have failed to convince them of being any better or having a better corner on the truth. Why? Because we are so diminished and divided amongst 'our' many denomination\\abominations they would gladly 'take it for granted' and hold to what is now historical, 'traditional', why should they take our word for it? With so much confusion out there in Christendom it is not that difficult to see why there is a preference to hear it from the Pope, as a solitary, lone 'voice' than to the thousands of conflicting sentiments, arguments, strife and contention that [i]we[/i] show forth as the alternative. That doesn't make anything 'right', just factual, if my facts hold any weight.

The great problem with all this is to again [i]assume[/i] too much here, usually the cry will come forth that this necessitates an agreement or a compromise or similar sentiments. That doesn't have to be nor would I hold to it either. There is far too much that doesn't add up and is just flatly against scripture.

At the same time it is very, very difficult to start pronouncing sentence or even frame the question in such a fashion .... perhaps I might get off track here. To the question heading this post ...

No.

To even go back here a couple of posts and read through A.W. Pinks article on [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15689&forum=34]Another Gospel[/url] would find our own Protestant Churches in a great delusion not any different, perhaps even in worse shape than the Catholic Church. Now saying this much also brings in the 'tit-for-tat' ideal that can be yet another assumption, it seemingly attempts to 'even the score' by way of comparison. Maybe what I want to draw off of it is that faith in the Lord Jesus has to be other than cerebral ascension (I know the majority of us already know this) and that fact is lost on the whole swath of denominations in far too large a great part. It is almost more peculiar that some of the other denominations aren't waylaid as much as the Catholic Church is ... not defending here.

Am hesitating somewhat here and usually do when this subject comes about. It is pretty personal here as well. I love and understand our brother Krispy very much and here it is where I have some problem with particular points that he (you brother, sorry, not talking around you here) would be so adamant about. It is just not that simple to pronounce judgment upon Catholics... I have to get a bit personal here so please bear with me in the right light and understanding. Fortunately am not emotionally charged in any way and knowing the tendencies of how things often get misconstrued here thought it worth pointing out, negating any assumptions or presumptions. My folks are\\were life long Catholics. My father more so I would say in his dedication to what he believes and we haven't really had that many discussions about it ... 60 some odd years of being in this frame, think our sister Forrest touched on this well enough. My mother died just this past February and many a thought up to her death and through her death brought a lot of this matter to the fore. It is part of my testimony that it was my mother who I had found out after my new found life in the Lord that had been praying for me for who knows how long, it was a very striking 'revelation' of sorts, not so much that she was praying, but praying I would ... come back to the 'Church'? Well, it certainly didn't seem so, in fact it appeared to me she was just happy I came 'back' period... This is difficult to unravel adequately. The thing with my folks is they always thought we kids should make up our own minds about matters. And they honored that. At the same time even recent events would have me believe my father would much prefer me to be a Catholic, it's very much unsaid. so here is where the real punch comes in. My mother died as a "Catholic" ... Where is she presently? It is not a drawing question but a truthful asking outloud. I did ask it, wonder of it ... of course. In prayer up to and throughout her illness. Life doesn't always dish out things according to schedule, the Lord doesn't rather ... By the time there was any indication that she didn't have much time left here on this earth things picked up a very quick pace. Anything from 9 months to speculations of through the spring, before we knew it she had descended quite rapidly. All that to just say ... The same way she prayed me back to the Lord I prayed her into His hands, that the Lord Jesus Himself would save her (if there was any doubt) all of His own doing, just as He tracked me down on His own (not without seeds planted along the way). It wasn't a church, a preacher or even a 'witness' that brought me to my ultimate knees but He Himself. I have no doubt whatsoever He honored my request and saved my dear Ma whatever all the theological constructs and they are important! Somehow I wish to convey something far deeper and penetrating that is not compromised in any such fashion, is not giving way because of a special case or any such thing. I am speaking of a knowing past even my own understanding and not a wishful thinking to side step a very painful reality. I would have to face it regardless if it were so.

Maybe here I need to step through this a bit more quickly and mention just some random thoughts that have either been recent or mused on for some time. I sat through a 'Rosary Service' for my Ma. It was somewhat painful in a spiritual fashion. Sitting up front felt like a fish out of water and very much like every eye was peering through me. Here my mother is lying a few feet away in an open casket and the voices around me are repeating in repetition the Mother Mary's and it was all I could do to just silently pray both 'Forgive them for they know not what they do' as well as 'Forgive them for vain repetition' amongst other ... sighings and just ... 'Lord Jesus'. Here it began to dawn on me any number of things. I could humble myself and be silent, pray quietly and not feel some impulse to have to set everyone straight. Similar it was in the church itself. They afforded me the opportunity to speak and honor my mother and give the Lord glory, mentioning even the dangers of praying mothers ;-) Bit's of my testimony and ... one thing that has taken me quite a long time to process; Things that are caught rather than taught. Whatever the mistaken notions from our perspective one of the most subtle and profound is recalling my father going to 'mass' on all the special occasions, whatever they were as part of the Catholic calendar(?). He never forced or cajoled any of us on these, usually following on some week day, but went alone. That grew on me in latter years as I returned\\and was truly converted to the Lord. It is the principle of the matter more than anything, the way he handled himself in this seemingly insignificant way, he bore no grudge and said little, it was his conviction. I found the old church I was raised in now setup quite differently than it used to be. Now the chairs are arranged in a circle with a much smaller 'altar' in the center and .... a small baptismal pool of sorts, something it appeared one could kneel in ... perhaps a 'half-dunk'? Even the priest was powerful in his delivery bringing forth scriptures I would never had thought of bringing forth for a funeral. From the handout; Isa 25:6,-7-9. Romans 8:31 35, 37-39 John 14:1-6 and a very good message on Lazarus, recall his point being that Jesus raised him from the dead for our sake as especially poignant in the way he preached it. A couple of my co-workers attended, both who I know not very well at all. One of Iranian descent that by his mere presence brought forth a quiet dignity that was difficult to ... explain away. They invited everyone to the communion and those not partaking they asked to fold their arms for a 'blessing' which he did (What are his beliefs? I do not know, but his manner was humbling). Real wine. If all this doesn't leave some squirming I would be surprised, it's still not all that easy to put it out here and not wonder at the misconceptions. What I did recognize again was that I could hold without wavering to the truths as I know and understand them and still humble myself in this situation, recognize some rather 'unpleasant facts' of those around me, not that they were unpleasant but that they put the question mark into what is too often too easy to come to conclusions about. In the foyer they had poster boards describing the martyrs in foreign countries, explaining the situations, asking for prayer. I will again go and sit next to my father at mass again in days ahead because I love him. So much for the picking up the pace...

Reading through "Tortured for Christ" once again in recent days brought even more difficulties into all this, depending on ones perspective. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16110&forum=40&27]Amazing Testimony Of Richard Wurmbrand (Interview)[/url] Had me pick this up once again and read it through to it's conclusion. Would recommend it for all reasons that it was written for, but for this issue here to point out just what he had to say about Bishops and Catholics who had great faith, gifts and even those he felt [i]unworthy to untie there shoes[/i]. A different perspective to be gained for certain when persecution is at hand, suddenly a whole host of things begin to get down right serious and sincere.

Yesterday brought up [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16716&forum=48&0] Northern Ireland enters new power-sharing era[/url] that apparently just fell off the page as many an item does, but coming from the firey Ian Paisley ... Again, yet another perspective. Lastly, there are those saints that creep in here almost unaware that are of a Catholic persuasion at various points in that churches history that if they hadn't been marked out as so it would be impossible to attribute their denominational holding to them. There is far too much to consider to ... just not to do it. Perhaps that is all I really want to address.

Just a few thoughts on the original question. I was thinking about Elijah back in 1Kings 19. He was a prophet to a dead kingdom. Israel had broken off from the other two tribes and were really an illegitimate kingdom, who never had a godly ruler. They had rejected the authority of God (a descendant of David would be upon the throne), and as a nation were utterly corrupt. At a point of discouragement, Elijah, a true prophet, basically tells the Lord that they're totally wicked, and that he is the only one left who really loves Him. The Lord responds to him by saying that there are still seven thousand that do love Him and have not bowed down to Baal.
I'm sure you see the parallels. The Roman Catholic institution is heretical, their doctrine is contradictory to the Word of God. The institution is dead and the leadership (who fully know these doctrines) are not to be excused, just as the Kings of the Northern tribes knew that they were going against the will of God. Likewise, those who follow them are heading toward judgment. As most of you know, Israel headed off into captivity hundreds of years earlier for their rebellion (My people will perish for lack of knowledge).
However, God's prophet was convinced that there was not a faithful person among the entire nation. Then God blew his mind by telling him that there were seven thousand. Now to be sure seven thousand seems like a large number, but I'm sure that it was a minuscule percentage of the population of the ten tribes. But there were at least some people who were not following the leading of the present king and his godless wife to worship Baal. Likewise there are people today who live within the outwardly perceivable borders of the Catholic Church, but inwardly are not serving the Catholic church, or it's leadership, but are serving the Living God.
My answer to the question based on these Scriptures? All inward Catholics, whose devotion is to that institution rather than Jesus, are going to hell. But not all outward Catholics are. The Judge of all the earth shall judge rightly, and He sees the heart and intent of man.
Incidentally, I would never send a baby Christian to the Catholic church to be fed and grow in the faith. They will be fed poison. But I know those who have been saved while in the Catholic faith, and even some who have tried to remain within the visible RCC to be a witness to those in darkness. Rarely do they meet with success...but Jeremiah didn't have alot either!

love in Jesus

I know what I am going to say will raise some eyebrows, but I do not think having the right doctrines saves anyone. I believe that when that day comes there will be many suprises. Catholics and mormons and jehovah witnessness will be in the kingdom of God and many who held the ["right doctrines"] will be outside. It does not matter what a persons church holds to but what they do with what they know. I have known those who are in what we call cults and they shine with the love of Christ.What matters for salvation is a persons obedience to the revealed word of God. God says it and I believe it. And they turn to God for help in time of need. Holding the doctrines of demons they are the children of God. While others holding the doctrines of the "church" do nothing but outward forms and are the children of the devil. If you love me obey my commands... if we love Him we will seek to do his will, and in so doing will see our utter inability to do so and crying out to God will recieve His strength.. in humility and brokeness... and many have and someday we will be shocked to see some that we have condemnded enter the kingdom of heaven ahead of us.. I judge them by their fruits and those fruits are not ideas they hold to but the power of a new life..love, joy, peace, patience....