The World in the Church

Contemprary christian music has played a large part in the major downfall of the modern church.

It’s very sad that so many people believe that if it has a “Christian” label…it’s Christian. This is not a Biblical way to think at all. “Family safe” is the other one that really gets me.

I personally do not have cable or satellite, but when I visit my parents I will see some of the most shocking things ever, and this is just while walking past the TV room…and they have Sky Angel!

)Sky Angel is “Family Safe/Christian” satellite)

You are very right Greg. This type of activity so troubles me, many are terribly deceived.

I wonder what type of devotion or sermon followed.

I agree so much with both of you. I read two very nice articles by Tozer about it. In one he compared this to the golden calf...

"It is now common practice in most evangelical churches to offer the people, especially the young people, a maximum of entertainment and a minimum of serious instruction. It is scarcely possible in most places to get anyone to attend a meeting where the only attraction is God. One can only conclude that God's professed children are bored with Him, for they must be wooed to meeting with a stick of striped candy in the form of religious movies, games and refreshments.

This has influenced the whole pattern of church life, and even brought into being a new type of church architecture, designed to house the golden calf.

So we have the strange anomaly of orthodoxy in creed and heterodoxy in practice. The striped-candy technique has been so fully integrated into our present religious thinking that it is simply taken for granted. Its victims never dream that it is not a part of the teachings of Christ and His apostles.

Any objection to the carryings on of our present golden-calf Christianity is met with the triumphant reply, "But we are winning them!" And winning them to what? To true discipleship? To cross-carrying? To self-denial? To separation from the world? To crucifixion of the flesh? To holy living? To nobility of character? To a despising of the world's treasures? To hard self-discipline? To love for God? To total committal to Christ? Of course the answer to all these questions is no." -Religious Boredom by Tozer

This was the other article which is even cooler.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=161

Those articles by tozer really say it all. I have often struggled with "this mess" in my mind and prayers. We have a large youth group at our church and some think that this contempory thing is the only thing that will attract the kids. I have come to disagree but as of now am just a lone voice in the wilderness. I feel/know what really attracts people is the Holy spirit. To often though churches seem to major in the minors and minor in the majors (confession,repentance,holiness) Sadly I'm afraid that it is more about the "form of Godliness" without the content! These are serious times and I fear lest a whole generation(s) of young people lose thier soul in false easy believeism. In prayer.

Hello,

i watched the video, and i perfectly understand your concerns.
But...i don't know.
You know, i have been to brazil for the last 3 months and have experienced church life here.
One could say that there is a little "revival" going on here.
At least, the church I am visiting is growing every day and the Pastor(s) are preaching holiness and radical living.
It is not counterfeit, even though I do have some little concerns with some teachings, but these are minor things.

So, I have come to realize that the people here are different. They listen to different music, have different pasttimes and have a different style of clothing.

They do not sing hymns, they don't even know hymns. Often the worship is loud and people are jumping like in that video.
I was asking god about this...and on my way to being judgmental I believe he showed me that I cannot judge according to STYLE.
I cannot judge according to outward appereance.

As i said, i perfectly understand your concerns and with most things I agree, but if i would show you a video from the church here in brazil, you would propably think the same.
But I can assure you that people here are being won for true discipleship, cross carrying holy living and truly loving god.....even though their outward way of worshipping god, their mentality and their style may offend our perception of "holiness".

I hope I was able to put my thoughts into right english :)

just my 2 cents..

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16783&forum=34]Be Ye Separate - J.C. Ryle[/url]

This may bring a bit of understanding to why some are so discouraged by what was shown in that video

"If you try and win the world by being like the world, the world will win you!" - Keith Daniel

I scanned godtube.com, much of the stuff on there is grievous

Hey -daniel

In the Middle and South Americas, you guys do have a very party-like, loud atmosphere. In Africa, they have dances in their worship.

There is probably a place for this. Even Jewish music gets pretty bouncy and has a dance that goes with it. And baptists sometimes do clap, hehe.

However, it seems that worship is being made a time to have fun, apart from the joy that God gives you Himself. Those people hopping aren't hopping because of God, they are hopping because of the drums and because thats what secular people do when they listen to this music. It isn't impossible to want to hop for God, but if we are honest with ourselves we know that isn't what is happening here.

No matter what culture you're in, there should be something like hymns, I think. In America, everybody hates hymns. I love hymns. Why do I love hymns? Because the barely adorned music leads me to contemplate my Savior only, and I am not distracted by a bunch of other clamoring instruments and voices. The lyrics are God-centered and much more edifying than the CCM that the rest of America listens to. And the reason I love hymns, are the reason they don't.

But should Brazil and Africa have the very same hymns we do? I don't think so at all. Different cultures have different reactions to beats. I read in a research paper that when missionaries first went to Africa they thought the music was offbeat, but it turned out it was just a complex pattern. Different cultures will want different instruments. And every culture has a way to do the baptist "clap".

But the point is, a time of worship should always have a solemn, contemplative, edifying (we should hear every word!), beautiful section. And when you go to rejoice, and more upbeat music, there must still be humility humility humility. So thats really what we're getting at here. It isn't about style, its about attitude. And it may be strange to the culture you're in but it honors God.

Those are my thoughts... :-)

Hey hopepurifies,

I completely agree with what you have said.
The church here has its "beautiful sections". It is just not the hymns you know.
Anyway, I for myself am glad that I will be back to Europe, soon :)

Again, I understand and agree with most of your concerns!

My whole point was:
You cannot judge about the condition of a people because you saw a 20-second clip of something that may not fit into your perception of holiness.
Do I make sense?

daniel

the reason I love hymns, are the reason they don't.

But the point is, a time of worship should always have a solemn, contemplative, edifying (we should hear every word!), beautiful section. And when you go to rejoice, and more upbeat music, there must still be humility humility humility. So thats really what we're getting at here. It isn't about style, its about attitude. And it may be strange to the culture you're in but it honors God.

Indeed! I believe humility is the thing that is lacking with most modern worship songs.

the only thing i can say I'm so so so so tired and just so utterly grieved at the state of most churches, the video there is to me the "heart" of the Swedish church at large, no different in any other western country i can imagine, i need to be weeping more for his church,

right now I'm just broken, I'm broken because so many people are going to burn in hell, even thou the went to "church" whole their life's. I don't remember who said it but....the largest misssionfield are in our churches....

GOD HELP US, we are so utterly lost i don't think we even realize how far far of the edge we have gone. and the sad thing no one seems to be alarmed,

Speaking about Africa, mid and South America and their 'beats'. I would like to throw more light on this.

Being a missionary in South Africa, we have found that when true repentance and salvation takes place the cultural ties are broken completely. One must therefore understand the root of those traditions.

How far should one go regarding this music thing. I would say as far as possible. One can test the fruit and then plainly see the motive.

Regards,

Revived

Ah reckon, I must be living in the boonies! I am mortified with this video! To think people called THAT worship??!! Worship of what?

Now, I responded emotionally. But is that not what music engages - your emotions? To me it is similar to cooking spoiled meat to feed to your guests: it stinks and does not smell edible at all although with thorough cooking it might NOT kill you but it sure would not be appetizing.

Lord, have mercy!

ginnyrose

Being a missionary in South Africa, we have found that when true repentance and salvation takes place the cultural ties are broken completely. One must therefore understand the root of those traditions.

To tell you the truth, this very thing did disrupt my peace a bit. I only stopped listening to my thrash heavy metal a month or a month and a half ago? From there I pretty much ended up getting rid of a ton of music. And now I pretty much listen to the godly music section on here and things that would fit well on there. But then my friends who listen to any music put on a Spanish worship CD that wasn't much different than the stuff I had gotten rid of, just with a few different instruments. And so it stung my conscience a little bit. But I didn't want to judge a "culture". ?
Maybe some of you have heard of Urbana? It is a big conference for missionaries or people thinking about becoming missionaries. At one time I was wondering if missions was for me, and so I went. They seemed pretty ecumenical because they had Rick Warren and female pastors as speakers, and when I confronted the book selling guy about the Emerging Church section in their bookstore, I was told to be open-minded. Not withstanding, Urbana07's central interest was to get us to respect all cultural expressions of Christianity. Indians did a rain dance to Jesus. A girl from Hawaii did the dance thing for God. A drama team did dramas. I'm just not sure about all of it you know? I don't want, like my friends said, to convert the entire world into American Baptists or Presbyterians or whatever. But at the same time... what is holiness? You know?
When Paul says we become all things to all peoples, what does that mean? Does that mean we do rain dances for Indians? I used to use it to justify being a goth (to reach the goths ya know?). But I don't think its right. What does it mean?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%209:19-23;&version=49;

"oh... you're uncaring, Krispy, because you say we should just walk away from people who reject the gospel!"

I enjoyed your post Krispy

A lot of people think we should chase them down and get them in the church at any cost but the examples found in the Bible do not contain this method.

What about the rich young ruler?

Jesus just let him walk away.

Nobody loved him more than Jesus.

In fact, he'd be much better off if he never learned to be like an American Christian.

Truly a sad sight. This is the kind of sensual excited climate that leads me to conclude that most of our youth groups are really just worldy culture ghettos in even our more healthy churches. The divide between youth groups and descipleship sets these kids up for a fall. Statistically speaking (Barnum) a huge majority of the children in this video won't be in church in 5-10 years.

There aren't enough tears to express the abuse of God's house that is taking place here. It felt like there was an abominable golden calf in that room that the children of God were dancing around.

Lord, clean our hearts. Teach us to pray with a pure heart for our churches.

MC

Compton wrote:
There aren't enough tears to express the abuse of God's house that is taking place here. It felt like there was an abominable golden calf in that room that the children of God were dancing around.
Lord, clean our hearts. Teach us to pray with a pure heart for our churches.

Many people (including myself) are grieving over the abominations taking place in the Church these days.

I, too, had a look at that video clip. Okay, to jump and shout and praise is beautiful. When done in the Spirit. But what about the music here? Just because you attach the word "Christian" to a thing doesn't sanctify it. Or maybe there is even a "Christian" antichrist?

But what about that guy they are passing around overhead? And do they do that with the women, too?

"Holiness becometh thine house, O LORD, for ever" (Ps. 93.5). Not carnal things borrowed straight from the world, but holiness.

AD

The world in the church....this is a weary theme in our conversations, isn't it? What a thin avenue prayer is, walking between not caring and becoming dispairing.

In discussion tonight with my wife over this sad video, I began to once again become painfully aware how slow I am to confer first with the Lord over these things. Then, after I try to carry this without help I feel dispair untill it would seem better not to care at all without the avenue of prayer to walk down. (I have to learn some of the most basic lessons multiple times.) And I suppose it would seem a great insult to some of the people from that video that we would even assume they need our prayers.

Yet, my own convictions about this sillyness do not come from a misunderstanding or a cultural gap...I was there and I know the long unlearning that must take place because youth are given a teen Gospel, instead of the real deal. In my experience as a parent, it is the spirit of the age to treat children as if they will be children forever, complete with a seperate gospel message based on "passion" instead of conversion. While realizing they are more tender and inexperienced now, we should point them towards spiritual maturity that expresses Christ's character which is more then enthusiasm or desire. Needful patterns of Christian manhood and womanhood are strangely missing from the youth groups I have known.

Like all Christian parents, who are essentially pastors of a little flock, we are all too aware of how constantly we must swim against the current of our age. Among the popular culture, the government, the education systems, the social care systems there is little sympathy for Godly parenting which is mistrusted as "patriarchial". Well Christians parents are patriarchal indeed! Genesis 18:19, “For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.”.

Instead the world follows a different 'principle'....

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly aging.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.
(Bob Dylan)

That is the spirit of the world and we do well to have our eyes open wide if we bring children into it's everpresent miasma. Yet, what we Christian parents are not prepared for...at least not initially, is that this rebellous spirit has seeped noxiously into our churches and is bring promoted as the driving genius behind cultural relevance or teen ministry. So, when we bring a concern about music or behavior to the leadership, we are apt to be given a smart lesson that we parents are out of step with the youth of today.

In the end, I feel this worldy leakage is beyond human repair. We could evacuate the building, but it will just follow us wherever we go unless...

...churches are turned back to prayer.

In my heart I am seeing that if God is visiting our churches we will know it when first the Church begins to pray according to her ancient Pentecostal heritage. The greatest danger I fear is not that revival won't come...but that a form of revival will come without tarrying prayer. This would be a final delusion...an apostacy of the worst kind, cementing our Churches in their self-sufficient state.

So, in the midst of the loud hooplah the true remant in these churches can be safely recognized not by their prophesying or their preaching...but by the power and perseverance of their prayers. I feel unworthy to even speak confidently about the callings of others, but I am confident in the Spirit of this; those whose ministries have in some manner the effect or outcome of turning the beloved Church back to broken guileless prayer, are the truest ministers doing God's work for this age. On that 'day', some of the remant will pray for repentance, some for intercession, and some for ministry...but all will pray the entire farm for Jesus to visit...because He is the revival. (You've heard the expression "bet the farm"...it means throw everything you are worth into the gamble. Yet with God prayer is no gamble, so we can safely say "Pray the farm" dear saints!)

Yet you have not called upon me, O Jacob, you have not wearied yourselves for me, O Israel.

Blessings brethren,

MC

GOD HELP US, we are so utterly lost i don't think we even realize how far far of the edge we have gone. and the sad thing no one seems to be alarmed,

this is so so true!!So few see it!!
May God open our eyes, and weep NOW!!
In HIs love
charlene