Long hair on men

Krispy,

Greg posted an article on this subject a few months ago written by Watchman Nee.Here is the link: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15891&forum=34&26

Krispy wrote:
Is long hair on a man a stumbling block?

I say: "Yes". Because, for one thing, it blurs the line of gender distinction. God made us all either male or female and called it very good. So why on earth do we want to blur this line of distinction? I experience a very uncomfortable feeling when I look at someone and have to look too much to determine its gender! Now this is not natural.

For some reason this subject always evokes strong debates. Since this happens, one should consider what forces are at work that evokes such strong reactions. Seems to me there is a whole lot more to it then what we really realize. Some want to dismiss it but fail to take into account this has been the common practice of the Christian Church for over 1900 years and in some places up to this very day. And if it is irrelevant why did the writer spend so much time teaching it?

ginnyrose

Is this maybe a cultural thing? I know the 60’s in America was a big rebellious time, but have other countries had such a problem with long hair being seen as rebellious or un-manly?

I changed the way I looked when I got saved. I didn’t want to look like the world I had just left behind. Nobody told me or mentioned a thing…I just wanted it gone.

I shared these bits and pieces on an earlier version of 'heads and what we should do with them'. If you knew what I look like you would know that in many ways this topic is not one with which I struggle.;-)

The point I want to make is about the phrase 'long hair'. The words used are only used in this passage of scripture so it is impossible to compare them with other contexts. [color=0000ff]“Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has [b]long hair[/b], it is a dishonor to him? But if a woman has [b]long hair[/b], it is a glory to her; for her [b]hair[/b] is given to her for a covering.” (1Cor 11:14-15 NKJV)[/color] The Greek words used are both verbs and nouns. Thayers Lexicon has an interesting comment about this word. [color=0000ff]komE dieffers from thrix (the anatomical or physical term) by designating the hair as an ornament (the notion of length being only secondary and suggested)[/color] The significance of this is that the 'hair' is being regarded as an ornament rather than as a physiological fact. A more scholarly description with lots of Classical Greek quotations can be found [url=http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=%CE%BA%E1%BD%B9%CE%BC%CE%B7&root=%CE%BA%E1%BD%B9%CE%BC%CE%B7&number=682690]here[/url] There is a further expansion of the meaning of the word here too [color=0000ff]the hair of the head (locks, as ornamental, and thus differing from 2359; which properly denotes merely the scalp)[/color] This is viewing the hair by function rather than by length. This is not essentially 'long hair' but 'coiffeured hair' ie 'hair as an ornament'.

A Nazarite (Numbers 6) was required to leave his hair uncut and if he did this for a long period it would no doubt become 'long hair' in the English sense of the word but it would not become 'coiffeured hair'. A nazarite's hair would never become hair coiffeured ornament. The 'length' of the hair then is only significant as an aspect of the grooming rather than something which could be measured.

I have worked with Christians of many cultures and natures and have often asked the question 'is it a cause of shame in your culture for a man to have long hair'? Often the answer is 'no'. In many cultures long and unkempt hair was part of the uniform of the the warrior, so there was no hint of effeminacy. If you ask would it be cause of shame for a man to have elaborately styled hair; the answer, almost invariably, is 'yes'. Almost universally 'coiffeured hair' is a sign of effeminacy.

edit: 19:30
I have just done a search through the LXX (Septuagint) for the word komE and found the following references.
Leviticus 19:27;Numbers 6:5;Job 1:20;16:12;38:32;Ezekiel 24:23;44:20

It is interesting that there is always some connotation of 'tending the hair' in these references. Even the references to the Nazarite can be seen as a studied neglect of the hair during his period of special sanctification to God. These references are interesting simply because we can see how the word was usually used.

I lament the fact that my hair has become migratory, it has chosen to relocate in my ears, nose, and back, so I can't really claim that I have hair loss, maybe hair re-location :-)

Am almost positive there is another thread around here in this regards... Don't miss what Ron pointed out earlier it does bring a very needed distinction to all this. Krispy would well know of the "Hair Bands" of the 80's and I was once of that somewhat derogatory group, being a guitar player but would have distanced myself from the ... musicablility of it all. Rather, was more of a guitar players guitar player so ... I modeled the mop after Randy Rhoads which to my mind was much more 'cool'.

Now, here comes the part that will likely spoil it all for anybody coming to the conference in October ... I still do. Have had long-ish hair all my life, well at least from about 10 yrs old and onward. My Dad frowned, my Mom recognized it just was what 'fit my head' so to speak. So it is something of a mixed bag. To tell you the truth, it can be a real pain either way, if it's too short it is highly unruly, it curls and looks ... girly! Go figure...

Besides I draw all my power from it, not about to hack it off. ;-)

brethren
greetings in Christ's name by whose blood we are justified and reconciled to the Father. AMEN.

the scipture cited at the beginning of this discussion makes mention of nature showing that it is unseemly that a man/male have long hair and Paul is right. However if we observe the animal kingdom, there is one animal in which the male is recognized by his long hair, that being the lion. The lion is one of the 4 faces of the cherubim and is also associated with our Lord in the title "Lion of the Tribe of Judah"

this is not a defense but a testimony of why i have long hair. by the way i am black so it is in the form of dreadlocks. The first time i grew my hair out this way was at our Lord's instruction. in the time i would sit and twist each lock, HE would minister to me because i was always busy with one thing or another while in school. Then my parents complained because the didn't understand why i grew my hair out. at that time, our Lord had me cut my hair to honour them. for 2 years or so i had my hair short and then again i was instructed to grow it back. Most people assume that my hair is some sort of decoration or ornamentation (which i suppose to some degree it is) but it is something more than that. it is a part of what i am and who i am as much as any other attribute of me which God has made.

the tendancy i've noticed with people is to assume i am some sort of hooligan and so they are surprised when they see i am a child of God, husband and father, a working man etc. This flies in the face of men's wrong perceptions and it is a hard thing for men to reckon with being wrong i'm finding. a reason which God showed me not to cut my hair ws because of this very thing, if i did, then men could continue thinking wrongly rather than repent. This is a microcosm of something which is inherent in man, a spirit of "i'm right always" which is by defaul in opposition to God and needs to be confronted. When i consider my hair i see it in light of this and so it ceases to be an ornament but is a reminder of this battle and more than that also, it testifies to my being in the midst of it.

Hi Mike...

Interesting post. My wife's brother has a very similar "problem" with his hair. It is so thick that he either must cut it every five days -- or run the risk of looking unkept. For a while, he kept it a little long (not shoulder length or anything) -- just so the weight of the hair would flatten his "puff."

I think that the real issue is NOT the hair or hair length. The issue is the desire within the man or woman's heart. What is their motivation -- and to which system are they displaying their supposed "allegiance?" There are some individuals who develop a hair style to:

A.) Rebel
or
B.) Fit in

Long hair is hardly considered "rebellion" by unbelievers in the West -- at least nowadays. However, one may argue that some do it to "fit in" with the established patterns of this world. Is their hair style an attempt to gain acceptance by the people of this world? Then again, one might argue that "religious" haircuts are sometimes done to "fit in" or become "accepted" by the established patterns of the religious folk.

I've never worn long hair, except for a period of time in which I portrayed the role of "Jesus" in a large Passion Play. It's not that I necessarily believe that Jesus had long hair when he walked this earthly sod. On the contrary, I doubt he concentrated much on the issue. However, I made it long so that the people in the play wouldn't see "Chris" -- they would perceive "Christ." I also grew a beard -- which took me about six months to grow. Needless to say, this was quite a warm sacrifice in sunny south Texas. In the end, people thought that I looked like the "Jesus" from the film "[i]Jesus of Nazareth[/i]." A few individuals were quite offended by my long hair. Even after explaining the rationale, I was still ostricized by a few well-meaning believers. In fact, a couple of them seem to have never forgiven my "blasphemy."

The point of the matter is that we are not supposed to parade either our "piety" or our "worldliness" on the outside. I often wonder what individuals from the year "0" looked like? What did a guy look like who typically used a knife to cut his hair? Did he cut his hair every two weeks (like I do) or did he cut his hair every two months? In my opinion, this is one of those Romans 1-16 issues that cannot be fully understood or resolved by I Corinthians 11.

:-)

Context is at the very heart of gospel truth and errancy. If you want to burden your congregation with new laws, created by Paul's suggestions to a church deep in the Roman Empire... you might as well burden them with the 600+ laws from the Old Testament, too.

What Paul wrote to the Corinthians is God's word to all the churches.“But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.” (1Corinthians 7:17 KJVS)

I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying we ought to do what Jesus taught us and preach the gospel, not the epistles.

The significance of this is that the 'hair' is being regarded as an ornament rather than as a physiological fact.

I heard it preached once that Absalom's long hair was the 'symbol' of [i]his[/i] rebellion. Not all men are in rebellion. Personally I am indifferent to hair length. But as with other topic's such as tattoos' piercings, etc. I think it is important to discern 'why' we may do these things. If it is strictly out of preference- I think we are OK. But if the thing is really a symbol of some rebellion we have we need to deal with the rebellion and the rest will fall in place.

The writers of the epistles preached the gospels. When the churches fell out of line, the apostles wrote thoughtful suggestions to help those churches along. Those "suggestions" are not laws nor should they be considered the same level as the Gospel - being the opinions of men, not the commandments of God.

2 Tim 3:16-17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.(KJV)

The whole of the scripture from Genesis to Revelation is God breathed. It is all equally inspired. The author is the Holy Spirit in all cases. The epistles were not the opinions of men- they were writings that carried the same weight as the rest of the scriptures.

dit: it's not "God's word to all the churches" - that was spoken on Mount Sinai and again when Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount.

Are you sure you don't want to rethink this view? :-?

I say: "Yes". Because, for one thing, it blurs the line of gender distinction. God made us all either male or female and called it very good. So why on earth do we want to blur this line of distinction? I experience a very uncomfortable feeling when I look at someone and have to look too much to determine its gender! Now this is not natural.

I'm not meaning to pick on anyone, but what about men like Guy Penrod of the Gaither Vocal Band? He has long hair, but he is masculine, he even has a beard which kind of tones down the long hair. I wouldn't consider him girly, but it does seem that he's kind of pushing the line. :-(

Jordan

hi everyone ,Im new to the site ,and its late and Im tired so just saying hello and looking forward to some fellowship ,so bfn

Krispy,

I am shocked at you! You are using opinions, logic in discerning whether a Biblical statement is applicable for today! You are talking out of character!

ginnyrose

It is noteworthy to consider that whatever hair styles the world is promoting, so-called Christians want to imitate it. And woe on you if you ever challenge it! Something is dreadfully wrong with this picture! People want to follow the dictates of ungodly people unchallenged; why do they not want to follow what the church says? Why the difference?

ginnyrose

Are you sure? Because Paul seems to state in I COR that he's voicing his opinion...

"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord... (I COR 7:12)

"I 'suppose' therefore that this is good for the 'present distress'... (I COR 7:26)

"But she is happier if she so abide, after 'my judgement'... and 'I think also' that I have the Spirit of God." (I COR 7:40)

I think we can easily see that Paul here makes a distinction between what he views as his own Holy Spirit influenced opinion and that which is [i]inspired[/i] by the Holy Spirit (God breathed). Otherwise why stop and make a 'footnote' as it were. Surely to this point and afterward he considered what he stated to them to be authoritative. But even at that he reminds the reader that it was not merely some opinion he conjered in his own mind; but that which is given while under the guidance of the Holy Spirit- though not, perhaps, expressly commanded.

I think it a great error to take this passage and discount the whole of the epistles as a matter of opinion. If the epistles be not inspired then we have no real direction as to the operations and edifying of the Church. We can't afford to have even one epistle missing from the book. Not Jude and not Philemon. If we take out Romans we have no real means of understanding much of the Old Testament and salvation from God's perspective.

At issue is [u]authority[/u]. If the 66 books that comprise the scriptures are not the final authority, who or what is? Every man is left to do that which is right in their own eyes. These are foundational things and are not up for grabs. Sola Scriptura- 'Only the scriptures' was one of the motto's of the Reformers. God has gone to amazing lengths to make sure that we have the scriptures. All of them.

Thought I would take another stab at this ...

Long hair is hardly considered "rebellion" by unbelievers in the West -- at least nowadays. However, one may argue that some do it to "fit in" with the established patterns of this world. Is their hair style an attempt to gain acceptance by the people of this world?

For all the years I have been dealing with this would say that it has been different. It has come in an out of 'style' so many times I could hardly count. Have been ridiculed and harassed and even ... some girls liked it, enough said. The whole point is that this is before many things, where I would find myself now. To clarify something just a bit, it is not as long as used to be, I do have a job in an office these days and with the summer coming up will have it hacked again and likely will be disappointed as I always am :-(

The whole thing does get rather strange to discuss so much about. Bringing Krispy's original back up again;

I'm not really sure where I stand on this.

To tell you the truth, me neither!

My goal is not to run around and tell other Christian men to go get a hair cut. But if there is an obedience factor involved here, then I want to teach the truth of scripture (the whole councel) to those who may sit under my teaching. You know what I mean?

Yes, [i]obedience factor[/i]

Besides, there is nothing more relaxing than hanging out in the barber shop on a Saturday morning talking sports... lol. Especially in the Andy Griffith town I live in.

Someday ... would love to hang out there brother. So removed it sounds from the Silicon Valley ...

Is long hair on a man a stumbling block? Is it a pride issue? Is it a "hanging on to the world" issue?

In today's rock-n-roll entertainment church, long hair and tattoo's are becoming the norm. Not juding anyone's heart, just wondering if we're ignoring something in scripture. Are we not ignoring seperation from the world, perhaps?

What do you all think?

Hoping to just look at this in two different ways. The first is and hopefully always is, what was meant? What did Paul mean and why. This is where Ron's bringing in the tense and definition of meaning, the Greek and Hebrew ... Can I mention something of an aside, not as accusatory but I wonder sometimes if there isn't a retracting from this sometimes, almost a decided idea that it is not important, that everything can be taken at 'face value' and then applied however we may wish? It's subtle and not overt here but ... reading through the various commentaries on this verse seem to point to much of the same thing, that the point of the matter has to do with an over fussiness and primping and so forth. Some of it is tied to the idea that it is not normally natural for a mans hair to grow that long anyway ... what I am deriving is something that seems to require effort and perhaps 'effect', a drawing attention to one's self. But again even that may need to be set aside for the moment. There is still the whole context of what Paul is speaking about regarding head coverings, the order of things by Gods proscription, this last part that we are discussing is just the finishing part of a much longer discussion and actually leads into a even more distinct ...

1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Now that could very well mean not what we might suppose or if I was to be a defender here of longish hair the opposite;

[b]1Co 11:16 -
But if any man seem to be contentious[/b] - The sense of this passage is probably this: “If any man, any teacher, or others, “is disposed” to be strenuous about this, or to make it a matter of difficulty; if he is disposed to call in question my reasoning, and to dispute my premises and the considerations which I have advanced, and to maintain still that it is proper for women to appear unveiled in public, I would add that in Judea we have no such custom, neither does it prevail among any of the churches. This, therefore, would be a sufficient reason why it should not be done in Corinth, even if the abstract reasoning should not convince them of the impropriety. It would be singular; would be contrary to the usual custom; would offend the prejudices of many and should, therefore, be avoided.”

[b]We have no such custom[/b] - We the apostles in the churches which we have elsewhere founded; or we have no such custom in Judea. The sense is, that it is contrary to custom there for women to appear in public unveiled. This custom, the apostle argues, ought to be allowed to have some influence on the church of Corinth, even though they should not be convinced by his reasoning.

[b]Neither the churches of God[/b] - The churches elsewhere. It is customary there for the woman to appear veiled. If at Corinth this custom is not observed, it will be a departure from what has elsewhere been regarded as proper; and will offend these churches. Even, therefore, if the reasoning is not sufficient to silence all cavils and doubts, yet the propriety of uniformity in the habits of the churches, the fear of giving offence should lead you to discountenance and disapprove the custom of your females appearing in public without their veil.

Albert Barnes

He continues;

1Co 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

I actually do not believe what he means is to disregard everything he just previously stated, but that the divisions were being caused in part by [i]not for the better, but for the worse.[/i]

If you aren't as confused as I am by now ... I think I am trying to show two different things. That what was meant and appealed to at the time and where we would draw inference by way of application to our day, times, culture.

To state that 'it may be by way of drawing attention to ourselves' is an application, but is it what was meant? I think we can confuse matters by doing this sometimes as it becomes a sort of 'best fit', a "I think". And unfortunately I do not have a real good answer, would rather appeal to the word definitions and try and understand those before going into present day extrapolations.

It does bring this back full circle to Krispys original questions;

Are we not ignoring seperation from the world, perhaps?

There is a real good article here about all of this sort of thing regarding how we go out of our way to be different in out ward shows, quite different than what is often thought;

[i]d) When St. Paul said, “Come out and be separate,” he did not mean that Christians should be singular, eccentric, and peculiar in their
dress, manners, demeanour and voice. Anything which attracts notice in these matters is most objectionable, and ought to be carefully
avoided. To wear clothes of such a colour, or made in such a fashion, that when you go into company every eye is fixed on you, and you are the object of general observation, is an enormous mistake. It gives occasion to the wicked to ridicule religion, and looks self-
righteous and affected. There is not the slightest proof that our Lord and His apostles, and Priscilla, and Persis, and their companions,
did not dress and behave just like others in their own ranks of life. On the other hand, one of the many charges our Lord brings against
the Pharisees was that of making broad their phylacteries, and enlarging the borders of their garments, so as to be “seen of men” (Matt.
xxiii. 5). True sanctity and sanctimoniousness are entirely different things. Those who try to show their unworldliness by wearing
conspicuously ugly clothes, or by speaking in a whining, snuffling voice, or by affecting an unnatural slavishness, humility, and gravity of
manner, miss their mark altogether, and only give occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme.[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16783&forum=34&0]Be Ye Separate - J.C. Ryle [/url]

There are four gospels. So no, the epistles are not included when one uses the word "gospel". edit: Nor did the apostles have use of any other literary works other than the Gospel and the Old Testament.

In the early years of the 2nd century when the NT writings were collected together the 4 accounts were called 'the gospel' and the writings of Paul were usually called 'the apostle' but this is a description of literary genre not a definition of the word 'gospel'.

No, this letter is written "to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:” (I COR 1:2)

it's not "God's word to all the churches" - that was spoken on Mount Sinai and again when Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount.

Are you sure? Because Paul seems to state in I COR that he's voicing his opinion...

"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord... (I COR 7:12)

"I 'suppose' therefore that this is good for the 'present distress'... (I COR 7:26)

"But she is happier if she so abide, after 'my judgement'... and 'I think also' that I have the Spirit of God." (I COR 7:40)

What I am saying is that here in the forums and out in the churches I hear more about Paul than I do about Jesus. I can't remember the last time I argued with any Christians about Christ's words in the gospels, I really can't. But I see nothing but bickering and strife when it comes to Paul's epistles; no one can agree on gifts, on whether Jews are still the more-chosen race or not, on the role of women, etc.

The apostles were promised that the Spirit would lead them into all truth. Paul's epistles expound the truths of the gospel accounts. The whole book is the revelation not just the parts that are in red print.

Hi ginnyrose...

It is noteworthy to consider that whatever hair styles the world is promoting, so-called Christians want to imitate it.

To take a definitive position on this issue is, at best, speculative. This would equate to basing a doctrinal position upon a single passage of Scripture. While this is certainly an interesting issue to discuss, there is a danger in developing an exclusive understanding of the issue -- whether it involves long hair on men or women without man-made coverings. It's not that a person should not interpret the Scripture and follow it accordingly. But the danger is when we question the "understanding," "spirituality," or "maturity" (or even the "salvation") of others who profess to follow Christ. Remember, there are many other singular passages that groups can develop doctrines from (like "baptism for the dead," "taking up serpents," etc...).

I suppose that the only fear that I have for the Revival Conference in Ohio is the "doctrinal issues" that we might bring with us. What if someone thinks that MY haircut or tie is too "worldly?" What if someone passes judgment on me for drinking a Diet Coke that contains that "devilish" caffeine? What if the head-covering people do not accept the non-covering people? What if the "tongue talkers" are rejected by the "non-tongue talkers?" What if the Calvinists are ultimately rejected by the Arminists? I have been in deep prayer that believers would lay aside their petty doctrinal differences -- at least for the conference -- and see one another (and of course, SEEK CHRIST) with purity of heart and mind. We can be unified with the "same mind" (of Christ) without being of the "same doctrinal persuasions."

As with all issues, we need to develop an understanding and a maturity that allows us to understand our fellow believers. There are some well meaning believers who [u]really[/u] seek God that might not live up to all of the "mature standards" that we think are obvious.

:-)

* I'm fairly confident that GinnyRose did not desire to question the spiritual condition of those men who wear "long hair." It was simply a comment that I felt needed to be addressed. I know that our sister is a compassionate individual with a deep love for Christ and those who belong to Him.

Chris wrote:

I suppose that the only fear that I have for the Revival Conference in Ohio is the "doctrinal issues" that we might bring with us. What if someone thinks that MY haircut or tie is too "worldly?" What if someone passes judgment on me for drinking a Diet Coke that contains that "devilish" caffeine? What if the head-covering people do not accept the non-covering people? What if the "tongue talkers" are rejected by the "non-tongue talkers?" What if the Calvinists are ultimately rejected by the Arminists? I have been in deep prayer that believers would lay aside their petty doctrinal differences -- at least for the conference --

Come on now, Chris, you are not a worry-wort are you??? :-( You do not think everyone on this forum is aware of the doctrinal differences that exist among the posters? Actually, if you read my posts you will note I seldom get involved in doctrinal discussions because too many times I think people are splitting hairs and to me it is not worth the energy, time and has little value. However, not all agree with me so I say let them have their fun! :-D

Now about working, fellowship with people who share different doctrinal positions, would you know my mentor at CPC was a Catholic who I deeply appreciate as an individual? And I have a precious email friend who is a Catholic? another friend I value is a Missionary Baptist? or a Presbyterian? all affliated with a different church then mine. How can that be? I have not compromised my beliefs.....

To take a definitive position on this issue is, at best, speculative. This would equate to basing a doctrinal position upon a single passage of Scripture. While this is certainly an interesting issue to discuss, there is a danger in developing an exclusive understanding of the issue -- whether it involves long hair on men or women without man-made coverings. It's not that a person should not interpret the Scripture and follow it accordingly. But the danger is when we question the "understanding," "spirituality," or "maturity" (or even the "salvation") of others who profess to follow Christ. Remember, there are many other singular passages that groups can develop doctrines from (like "baptism for the dead," "taking up serpents," etc...).

Brother, I suggest you (EDIT) study the entire passage in order to develope an position on this issue. The heart issue is: "Who is the head of the church?"

I will admit to determine what is "long hair" on males is relative. TJ had an interesting testimony on this question and I think we all do well to take note. So, brother, if the LORD has been convicting you, you do well to listen to Him! Right? Would you know, growing in our relationship with Jesus mean crucifyiing our opinions, wants, desires and let HIM impact these opinions, wants and desires...and it is a painful process....means a crucifying of the ego, and yes, females have one, too. I battle it, too. You never get too old where the battle is won once and for all time.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

greetings in Christ's name sis Jeannette!

i bless God and thank Him that this humble testimony which God gave me blessed you in some way.

Ironman, what a great testimony! there's a young man in the church where I am who has dreadlocks. He's white though, and looks like someone from "Pirates of the Carribean". At first glance he may seem a bit "way out" but you only have to look into his eyes to see Christ there.

Now you made mention here of how ar first glance our dear brother may seem a bit way out and this hit home. as i mentioned in the first post about men's wrong assumptions, we have this bad tendancy to assume. i struggle with it myself daily and i bless God for giving me grace enough to not assume as much as i used to. i find it a blessed thing nowadays when i can say "i thought this and assumed that but was wrong" and being greatful for correction. it reminds me in small ways, powerful ways of God's love for me and how He chastens as many as He Loves. i then consider that if He takes the time to correct us in these small things, He will surely correct us in the bigger things, teaching us faithfulness in least that we may show faithfulness in much. This whole matter also brings to light how we tend to consider how others ought to be in our eyes, whether it be long(er) hair, shaved faces (on men i feel the beard is God's adornment on our faces for those who have it, shave it if you like)and we don't consider God in it all. What would He have us look like and do. If we can't acknowledge God's exclusive rights to us in these small matters, how then shall we consider His feelinsg/desires and sovereingty in the matters of eternal weight?

it seems to me that our refusal to be corrected in small matters as these, counting them to be of no consequence by default will render us unable to be corrected in larger matters which carry eternal weight. If we can't see that we are wrong in our thinking and assumptions in the small things, we are not going to be willing to see that we are wrong in bigger issues such as the coming of Christ and rapture, predestination and election and so on.

in this time, God has been imparting so much to me i am overwhelmed. the blessed thing is, He is using small things to make known to me the depths of His Knowledge and Wisdom and the Riches thereof. In the simple things, like the moth, the wind and the trees swaying in the wind and so on. God is so Good.

Did you think of yourself as a "Nazarite" when you first felt the Lord showing you to grow your hair?

i didn't consider myself a Nazirite in the sense of having had my hair from birth and not ever having cut it. However i did begin to feel that because God had indeed dedicated my life to His service. As such i am at His mercy to do whatever He asks since my life isn't my own any more but it is His now. in looking back, i was a bit hurt when i cut my hair but in that episode, God showed me something of His Sovereignty. i grew my hair to His Honour and then He required me to cut it to honour my parents. of course i wanted to honour Him more and wasn't keen on the idea. However, if i couldn't honour my parents whom i could see, how then could i honour HIm? It is interesting how God can require such with little and sometimes no explanation whatsoever. it's a coming to know God as He is and as we ought which is such a heavy thing, such an eternally heavy and blessed thing which i praise Him for daily!

even when my hair was cut, i remained as Nazirite because it is more an inward consecration or circumcision which is the key. God is indeed Good!

Of course, with Afro hair, unlesss you let it become dreadlocks, it has to be kept short or straightened. So women who have little time or money for fashion often have their heads cropped close or shaved. In that case it's, I suppose, more a sign of modesty, or lack of vanity, for a woman to have short hair. Except for dreadlocks, long Afro hair means hours at the hairdresser's having it straightened, styled and braided.

indeed hair as kinky (or nappy) as mine (it is especially kinky and thick)is more easily kept short. For our women, it is more expensive to maintain natural hair so the tendancy is to perm it or straighten it. Part of that though is be myth that beautiful hair must be straight like with every other race. We are all wonderfully and fearfully made (nappy hair and all!) and so we ought not think of ourselves as any less [beautiful] because our hair isn't straight. it is as though we don't appreciate the workmanship of God.

i remember when my wife cut her hair short and it was natural, i loved it! then she permed it and as soon as she did, she got all sorts of compliments...i should have let her know more often i preferred the natural hair...all the same she is growing out her natural hair and i make sure to let her know i can't wait for her to debut that look! she may not get many compliments from people around her but she'll get them from me for sure!

wow, all this from considering one's hair? God's wisdom is in the small things we overlook and take for granted. i am finding more of His wisdom in the simple observation of the trees, the waves of the ocean and so on.

boy Krispy you messed up when you brought this up! :-P i bless God for it though because He brought forth some things which had been gestating in me for some time.

God bless you all

If the bible says men are to have short hair then let us obey and have short hair. Next, people will want to argue "what is short hair, how long can I grow it before it's considered long?". How about instead of trying to figure out where the line is just keep it short enough that it would never be a question to anyone...but they would know you have short hair.

I do think, without being blinded by appearances, that the outer is often a sign of the inner. Personally, before I was delivered from the whole problem;-), I was indifferent to my hair. Its is interesting that although I have never seen them I knew that Krispy had a marine haircut and that Ironman had dreadlocks. :-D

bro Ron
greetings in Christ's name! i wanted to thank you for that post in which you brought out the word in the Greek and what it means to clear things up. it blessed me so because my hair was never really an ornament to me, there was always a greater gravity to it.

Personally, before I was delivered from the whole problem, I was indifferent to my hair. Its is interesting that although I have never seen them I knew that Krispy had a marine haircut and that Ironman had dreadlocks.

i went picture hunting and found one of you and indeed you've been delivered of this problem! :-P interestingly enough, before i knew what Krispy did for a living (from asking him) i knew he was a civil engineer...

God bless you bro

Right. I'm the "author of confusion" because I ask that we keep Paul's words in context by remembering who he was and who the Corinthians were - and why he might have though looking like the Romans was a good idea (caeser-cut). You know, "When in Corinth..." Or maybe I "confused" ya'll because I suggested Paul was commissioned to 'preach the gospel', not add to it by inventing new laws (Thou Shalt Keep Thine Hair Short) for believers everywhere to adhere to. Please consider the following scripture and tell me what's the difference between snipping your nether region to snipping your hair?

Corey, you need to be more careful with how you go about things here for one. Keep in mind where you are and that there are some here that have many, many years of experience beyond you. You stated as much in another post;

I'm actually one of the most argumentative folks on this board - Jesus is new to me, I've got billions of questions, zero patience, and less than zero tact. So I wholeheartedly forgive you.

Being that it is recognizable to you means you out to be able to also make it correctable. Slow down brother ...

As to the simplicity of newer believers mentioned earlier, that is all well and good and also highly dangerous if we are going to 'simply' take matters at face value, transpose them into our times and culture and make that the standard for following. The cults are riddled with this very logic.

There is every good reason for [i]studying to show yourself approved[/i] and the nobility of the Bereans testing all things amongst other admonishens. The attempt here ought to be deriving the meaning first and foremost no matter what the subject, issue what have you. It is not a competition nor a duel, it is to sharpen our thinking and further growth for the Body, whose Head is Christ.

I was indifferent to my hair.

I've had the same haircut since I was 4 years old ...bangs. :-D I can't claim humility though...my hair is too thin to do anythng but just lay on my skull. I did however succumb to a vanity of sorts while in my 30's...I agreed to have my tow colored hair tipped with a lighter color once.

I never did it again after a brother in my church yelled out and pointed at me as he was driving his car out of the church parking lot one Sunday morning, "Hey look, it's Billy Idol!" 8-)

MC

By nature men are more inclined to have short hair and women are more inclined to have long hair.

The point Paul is making is this: "Live in a way that doesn't make anyone else stumble and live in such a manner that the heathen have nothing to condemn you for."

MOST of the rebellious, wicked heathen guys I know in the world have short hair. Actually probably all of them.

How would us having short hair seperate us from the world?

I think I have an ulcer the size of a pancake

If you do, I'm sure you didn't get it from this thread, Corey! Ulcers are actually caused by bacterial infections, not stress.

Just havin a bit of fun here, nevermind! :-P

Brother Paul

hey sis Jeannette
greetings in Christ's name!

I used to long to have curly hair instead of boring straight hair. As a child I used to put curlers in my Dad's hair - in front where he had just a little strand remaining on his bald patch!

that must have been an experience for your dad! :-P

When I went to Uganda first (as a teacher) I loved the natural Afro hair, all springy like sheep's wool. I used to tease the schoolgirls because they were for ever twisting their hair into little knots to straighten it - "If only I had curly hair like you!"

i remember my little sister had a lot of hair and she would oft have it platted. As she got to high school she straigntened it but now it is natural again. She said she wants to grow locks now.

Later I realised that if it grew long it would be impossible to comb because of being too curly.

boy does it become impossible to comb...i'd have to comb it while it was still wet or else i'd be miserable...

I also realised this last time (helping in a children's home) that a black child who has soft, silky hair with little curl in it is probably suffering from malnutrition. (I suppose adults could get like this too, but children suffer more because they are growing.) A sign of really extreme malnutrition is if the hair goes a strange sort of ginger colour - the body can't even spare enough protein to make the black hair colour.

this is true too. the ends of my locks are turning ginger because i run outside quite a bit. i like it though.

Why are we just never content with how we look! Moses even had to point out that someone who was bald was ritually "clean", and to be treated as such!

i suppose it is a function of our vanity which we must contend with daily...well bro Daryl said he has "hair relocation issues" :-P which saves him the drama!

God bless you all

I don't know Russell Daniel, but is he sinning against God with his long hair? And if so, does Keith rebuke him for it?
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=937]Russell Daniel[/url]

I am just asking. I respect Keith Daniel and his ministry and for those who are opposed to long hair on men, is Russell doing something wrong?

The discussion is on long hair and Russell has long hair. If anyone sees a biblical problem with long hair and respects Keith Daniel, I was wanting their opinion.

Hi everyone, this is Russell Burnett, the handsome young man with the long hair in the picture with Keith. Keith did not rebuke me for it, he didn't even seem to be bothered by it. I just saw and felt the Love of Christ radiating and eminating from Keith to me. He is one of the most kindest, gentelest men of God there are. He treated me with respect and treated me as a saint of Jesus Christ. My hair is no longer long, I was asked to cut it by a few brothers and sisters in Christ. I am very ammused by this whole thing! Thanks for the laugh! You all are very beautiful saints and may Abba Yahwey bless you all. One scripture came to my mind in all this- It's good to be zealous in a good thing always.
A suggestion and word of caution in handling such a case as mine,- be careful not to throw away the baby with the bath water. Jesus told the scribes and pharisees- 'Woe to you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! You strain at a nat but you swallow a camel! Nat's were considered the smallest of ritually unclean animals, so when a nat would get in a cup of water, a devout Jew would cleanse the cup because it had made it unclean. A camel, although, was considered the largest of unclean animals. So even though they were maticulous in all the tiny, minute details of the Law, they totally missed the whole Spirit of the Law. Jesus told them-'If you would have judged rightly, you would not have condemned the innocent' He also said, 'You have neglected the weightier matters of the Law- Justice, compassion, Mercy, Faith, Love.
I just think it absurd to be arguing with another as the Body of Christ and as His Church about such miniscule things while untold millions of souls are plumeting into hell as we speak! Let's not miss out on what God is doing now and what His focus is on and what He is calling us attention to. The Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, it is not outward things, it is much, much more my dear saints. So I hope we all will desire and choose not to be like those religious hot shots and experts in Jesus' day and miss the Big Picture and miss the Spirit in the Letter.
Dear Lord Jesus, please teach me, and help me. I'm blind, deaf, lame, weak and afflicted. My foolishness is ever before You and my iniquity has gone over my head. Have mercy on me Jesus, hear my prayer Yahwey for I am poor and needy. Behold, I am like a senless beast before Thee, yet You are ever with me and You hold my right hand. Help us all to walk humbly with you, sinners You will teach in the Way and the meek will You guide in justice, mercy and judgment. Unite our hearts to fear Thy Holy name and grant us all brokeness, contrition and repentance. Grant us Godly sorrow and trembling at Your Holy Word which You have exalted above Your own name. In Jesus Christ's name, blood, virtue and righteousness alone- Amen.

My hair is no longer long, I was asked to cut it by a few brothers and sisters in Christ.

BTW so far as I am aware the scripture nowhere commands a man to have short hair nor a woman to have long hair. My conviction is that it does instruct the woman to cover her head in the assembly but there is no specific instruction. Paul is observing not commanding. His point, whether we receive or not, is not that Paul or the scripture is teaching us something about the length of a man's hair but that 'nature' teaches us. The teacher is not Paul but nature.

I just think it absurd to be arguing with another as the Body of Christ and as His Church about such miniscule things while untold millions of souls are plumeting into hell as we speak!

This is a true story. I have a friend whose daughter even as a child was very outgoing. On one occasion while waiting to collect her daughter from the school gate she heard her say to one of her new friends..."but your daddy has long hair, doesn't he know that the Bible says it is a shame for a man to have long hair?" She was about 6 at the time. Her mother, somewhat pink cheeked, hustled her away as quickly as possible from her unique form of evangelistic endeavour. :-D

Kids!! They do say that loosing your hair and going grey is a family trait... you get it from your children!! ;-)

As for these comments about Russel, i'd say that just as Jesus did, so did our brother Keith. We should not turn someone off because of their looks, for our Lord didn't do that. Hey, He even went and ministered to adulterers, and publicans. But let's be careful not be be seeker freindly like the "American" church, where we do not encourage the new believers to a more pure, and less worldly walk of life. To grow in the Word of God, and obedience to it. i fully belive that what Russel felt was true love from God. No doubt. Russel, keep seeking Jesus, and He will direct you, IF you have your heart in the place of submission to Him. He askes that we be willing, and if we are, then He will lead us in the path of righteousness.

Long hair: for a Christian to dismiss all what we have in God's Holy Word about it as "suggestions" "Paul's opinion" etc., etc., is doing disgrace to God's word. i'm sorry, but i can't see it any other way. If there is one thing that i want to be dogmatic on, it's God's word.

Just as with the headcovering, modest clothing, etc., this subject should not be overlooked and passed by with a flick of the wrist, and a sigh implying "oh, its a small issue". Hey, if it's in God's word, i think it's worth spending some time on, because God made the point of preserving it for us throughout these past 2000 or so years.

Hear me out, i'm not saying that we should focus on docrine, and not Christ and His work, but as the "preacher" said, "...There is a time for everything..."

What sort-of signal are we giving the world if we have long hair? Is it an "appearance of evil"? or a show of righteousness?? In our neck of the woods in IA, it seems to me that the ones that have long hair are the rebels. Is that the kind of representation that Christ deserves here on this earth? Come now, let us reason together, you seasoned Christians, and let's not beat around the bush on issues that DO have LOTS of relevance today, because of the testimony of Christ.

God bless you all.

Please don't be turned off by my strong words... i say it because i love Jesus, and don't want His testimony to be tainted.

In Christ,
-nathan

We simply can not "cut & paste" scripture. We can not ignore passages that we deem unimportant.

Well said. With the word of Almighty God it's all or none with what you accept. I think anyone completely honest with themselves knows that it is unnatural for a man to have long hair and unnatural for a woman to have short hair. If someone has to come up with a defense for it then it obviously causes a check in their concience (sorry, don't know if I spelled that right.) And if that's the case then the problem is deeper than long hair. It's a matter of how deep their christian sincerity is and how much they want to hold on to their own desires rather than adopt God's desires as their own. Someone like that is not going to make history for God. We should want to be the best that we can be for God even though it may mean giving up some things that we like. Well this is kinda long but I want to say one more thing. God bless you Russell! I am really blessed by the way you have looked at this whole thing. I can see the depth of your christianity in your attitude about the whole thing. What a blessing. And about Keith, the worst sinner would not feel condemned by him. He is the most Christ like man that I've ever seen and is largely the reason that I'm a christian today. Praise God for what he can do in a person's life!!!!

Let me go on the record and say that I have no problem with Russell having long hair. I do not judge Russell for that, I do not judge Keith for that. I would rather someone have long hair, tattoo's and love the Lord with all their heart, mind soul and strength than a person who is lukewarm for God, but has short hair and dresses in suits all the time.

I am reminded of the LORD's words to Samuel in 1 Samuel 16:6-7, "When they came, he looked on Eliab and thought, "Surely the LORD's anointed is before him." But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."

Krispy wrote:

What you're asking is for people here to pass judgement on Keith Daniels heart, as well as Russell's. Why would you ask people to do that, other than to trap people in their words?

Forgive me for not taking the time to make my intentions more clear. This is a discussion on men having long hair. We have some who believe men should not have long hair and some who believe it is ok for men to have long hair.

Now, my point is this...to those who love and respect Keith Daniels ministry, what is your opinion of Russell's long hair

Specifically, I asked:

I don't know Russell Daniel, but is he sinning against God with his long hair? And if so, does Keith rebuke him for it?

Here is where I am getting at...in a very poor manner so far...

I do not know Russell, but from what I can tell of him (especially now since he has commented) he has a desire to be like Christ. I am confident that he is a valuable asset to Keith and his ministry. Would it not be absurd for Keith to rebuke Russell simply because of his outward appearance?

This is all I am saying, please do not read into this that I am judging Keith and Russell in this situation.

Well said Nathan. You said that alot better than I could. You can't dismiss things in God's word but at the same time we are not to be "holy policemen". God takes care of those who are sincere. His sheep know His voice and they follow it.

What you're asking is for people here to pass judgement on Keith Daniels heart, as well as Russell's. Why would you ask people to do that, other than to trap people in their words?

Brother, I do not think that is the case at all. There is usually a better perspective given by those under the watch if I could put it that way.

My hair is no longer long, I was asked to cut it by a few brothers and sisters in Christ. I am very ammused by this whole thing!

Thanks brother, I think just right here is the crux of the whole matter and something I had earlier thought to include in one of these long ramblings and strangely omitted ... I am just as amused and usually am when the opinions come in the "I think" categories over [i]what was meant[/i]. Originally Krispy's attempt here was an honest inquiry if one was to go back and read it. It is a big deal, it is not a big deal, it's simple, it's not so simple ... What does the scripture say, what does it mean, what did it mean when it was stated? Isn't this the most important factor? Would much sooner appeal to the reasonings of a seasoned Bible scholar and by that I mean someone who has studied to show himself approved just by means of years of application and teaching than some of our opinions that won't even bow to such efforts. Philologos has that folks for those of you who do not know, our dear friend and brother having well over forty years in ministry. That does not make him perfect, but it ought to make us think, and appeal some consideration over the musings and skimming of scripture bereft of it's context, setting, culture etc.

I think in some ways Russel is correct in that we can be straining at gnats and at the same time Krispy would be just as correct as that never was the set intention.

But to go back to the appealing to Keith Daniel. I can relate to this and understand where JaySaved was going with this. Keith Daniel in many minds is very much respected in these parts and I think the point was to wonder at the contrast. Let me interject what I mean here.

When Art Katz first came to my area, I went alone to a unknown church, unsure of their background, denominational affiliation, what have you. I am sure Russel could relate having the lock's that there can often be a subtle wonder of perception in the back of the mind, not as a 'worry' but people and far too often Christians especially seem quite ready to do that very thing we are instructed not to do, [i]judge[/i] just by appearance. To be completely honest I think I was more concerned (if that is really what it was) with what Art Katz [i]may[/i] have thought of the 'longish hair' than any one. This isn't about 'men pleasing' and really it was more of a fleeting thought than anything, I didn't even have the expectation that Art would be any different than what I could gather from listening to his messages, reading his works. And I was not only exact in that estimation but was surprised by his treating me like I was his own son, putting his arm around me as we walked and chatted for a few minutes. And like Russel, I was also dressed as appropriately and nicely as I was able, I would take this all back to the link I posted earlier about these kinds of things ...

Do take note of the humbling aspect of his whole matter,

I was asked to cut it by a few brothers and sisters in Christ

And he did so.

Please saints, can we cease from accusing and supposing too much and ask more questions? These types of threads often reveal much more than the topic at hand if we are willing to just look at those things they do reveal.

[i]Edit: I had not seen the replies that came in while I was busy writing all this, thanks for the clarifications JaySaved[/i]

Russell Burnett, I ask you to please forgive me for bringing your name into this discussion. I should have exercised more caution and not just 'thrown out a name'.

I pray that my actions do not give you a negative opinion of us here on SI.

Well said Mike.

What sort-of signal are we giving the world if we have long hair? Is it an "appearance of evil"? or a show of righteousness?? In our neck of the woods in IA, it seems to me that the ones that have long hair are the rebels.

We are back to the question of how long is long? In the Mediterranean area of the early Christians I think it was the norm for women to have long hair in the proper sense and some braided it with golden threads which may be the context for “Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;” (1Peter 3:3 KJVS)I think the real point is probably the 'long/tended' hair of the women contrasted with the shorn hair of the men. So it is a comparative term. The problem is identifying the bench mark.

Well said Krispy.

There is a lot of good points going on in this discussion from many people.

We need to talk about long hair more often. :-)

Hey Ron B,

Thanks for your balance on what i said about cultureal bad and good signs n stuff. i'm usually really careful not to say stuff about realitivity and culturalization of the scriptures, but i didn't make myself clear i guess! Thanks again!

But just one caution about cultural correctness (Which i'm sure you are aware of, but for the sake of others reading who may not be aware of it): there IS ultimate truth in God's word, and no, it's not based on culture, but rather, God's Holy will. The verses about giving the appearance of evil may be open to cultural correct impressions, but remember: God's word always balances itself. So, seeing all that, let's take it with a grain of salt, and some Holy Ghost decernement. Let's go for Jesus all the way, and seek His will.

One thing's for sure, brothers, about this long hair thing: if those of you who think it's okay are wrong, God will bring you to a place where you see it as wrong- IF you are willing to follow and obey.

And if I AM WRONG, God will bring me to the place where i see long hair on men as alright... IF i keep my heart willing to follow and obey also!!!

Just keep seeking His heart.

i think i've expressed myself enough and my convictions on this forum :-D

Let's go for God, preach the truth, and the gates of Hell will not pravail- if we rely fully on God.

-nathan ;-)

Don't sweat it bro. The bible does have something to say about it. Jesus also said to the pharisees, 'These things you have ought to have done without neglecting the others.' He said, 'Do what they say, because they sit on the seat of Moses, but do not do as they do.'
The apostle Paul is definately sitting upon a God given seat of authority for the Church but the only difference is that Jesus says to us to do as he does because this man really follows me. I hope I didn't come off too prideful or arrogant to any one here. I apologize for causing anyone to stumble. The truth be told, while I was in Keith Daniels presence I became aware and consciious of my long hair without anyone saying anything to me. Keith may have prayed to God to make me aware of it, I remenber reflecting back upon the scripture that Apostle Paul gave us concerning this. Then when I got back home, some brethren and sistren(ha!) kindly made a suggestion to me to shave my face moss off(Ha!) and have my hare cut as a sign of newness of life, inward renewal and putting off the old man. So I felt confirmation and my conscience agreed and I readily and happily submitted and complied.
But seriously, may we all seek what God is calling every individual here attention to, all of us. Maybe there is someone reading this who hasn't been spending enough time in prayer and in communion with God in His Word. Maybe there is someone here who has need of deliverance and overcoming in an area of their life or thought life. May we all be honest with God and with one another and allow the Holy Spirit to work in our lives. I hope that we all will have streams of tears running down our eyes when we behold men who brake God's Law as David did. I hope that we will all be readily willing to die and suffer for the Sake of Christ and His Glory and for the lost who are ever present with us. Amen.