Once Saved...Always Saved???

I am placing this on it's own thread, as I think the question must be explored.

staff wrote:
.... but below is just your own personal belief their is as much arguement for "once saved always saved "as to the arguement of you can lose your're salvation...I am not saying that sinning has no consequences,nor I am saying that you can't lose rewards but I am saying "where sin abounds grace abounds even more" and it takes alot to lose your're salvation if at all possible.
rgds staff

Dear Staff,

Once saved, always saved, is true for those that move forward in the Holy Spirit, growing in grace, and ripening into spiritual maturity.

But that Grace is very easily lost.

[color=993300]Romans 2
1. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
[u]5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;[/u]
6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/color]

Grace alone saves us through Jesus Christ, but alas, it is so easy to become complacent, and to stop walking in faith.

At that point, one become particularly vulnerable to the Evil One, who with lies and temptations, will seek to turn the complacent away from their first love of Jesus.

And one cannot stand still even in grace. Unless one walks forward, strengthening the faith walk, and growing in gifts of the Holy Spirit, and reaping the fruit there of, in patience, kindness, humility, endurance, joy and love, sowing into other lives what has been sown into yours, you become on the the foolish virgins, the unprofitable servent, cast into utter darkness, and judged and found wanting at the end of the Tribulation.

[color=993300]Matthew 25
1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4. But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
[/color]

It is not enough to be saved, and live under grace. Yes, there are only the laws of love to follow, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to obtain, and use, to the glory of God.

But once you stand still in Jesus, you are in grave danger.

Yes, it may be possible to still receive one's salvation and do nothing over and above what Christ has done, for all our righteousness is in Him.

But the moment one stops going forward, you become prey for the one that seeks to devour you.
The devil is wise in the way of decit, and confusion. And oh, how easy it is to be turned around in your path, and find yourself, convinced that grace will save you, as you walk farther and farther away from Jesus.

And if you turn your back on the Lord, not in the foolish innocence of the newly born in Christ, but of the self satisfied Laodicean Church, who believes they are forever safe, no matter that they only worship themselves and their desires, are they not at risk of grieving the Holy Spirit away completely, and having their consciences seared?

Even pastors and teachers can lead people astray, else the state of the Christian Church in America would not be crumbling. And those that do not seek their Bibles early and often, who do not pray, who do not seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the protection of God and His angels, can they not go beyond grace into depravity?

Do not speak from opinion only, but search the scriptures.

And believe me, I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

Blessings,

Forrest

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; [b]and I will not [i]blot out[/i] his name out of the book of life,[/b] but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

to me this meens you can have your name writen in the book of life.... and that it can be 'blot' out to.

blot according to Strongs

G1813
ἐξαλείφω
exaleiphō
ex-al-i'-fo
From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.

and here is Thayers...

G1813
ἐξαλείφω
exaleiphō
Thayer Definition:

1) to anoint or wash in every part

1a) to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster)

2) to wipe off, wipe away

2a) to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out
Part of Speech: verb

I don't have anymore to add to what has been said, or to the scriptures concerning this subject.

However, there are those who are mislead into thinking, once saved always saved.

It is prevalent and obvious within churches today.

On account of the fear of man rather than a fear of God.

To keep the numbers in the church up rather than to lose people.

And sadly, because of self-deception that is in the churches today.

Also, peoples feelings, we don't want to hurt them do we, because God loves them.

The love gospel if you like, and forgetting that on the other side of the coin is God's wrath.

What the word of God says it says. We either take it or leave it, but don't change it.

God bless.

Krispy,
Let's look at what scripture says and think about it.

2 Tim 4v10, 'for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world...

Demas was one of Paul's travelling companions in spreading the gospel.

Was he then not saved when he traveled with Paul?

Demas loved the world and 2 John 2v15 tells us not to love the world, because it means the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Tim 4v1 tells us, 'Now the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

In order to depart from the faith, they had to have a faith to begin with.

So while it might seem like they weren't saved, they can depart from God.

Rev 3v2, 'Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.

Also in verse 16 we read, 'So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Just a few thoughts.

God bless.

well krispys thoughts are intresting too... i think of

1Jn 2:19 [b]They went out from us[/b], but they were not of us: for [b]if[/b] they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

LOL Krispy!!!

i'll have to remember that!

So let's be obedient children, and not rebels (See old testament punishments on rebels as type and shadow of our day perhaps... just a thought, not theology!!) and let's let the hell out!!!

i appreciate your thoughts!!

with grins :-P
-nathan

hmmhmm wrote:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
to me this meens you can have your name writen in the book of life.... and that it can be 'blot' out to.

Take a look at this:

Psalm 69:28 (NASB), "May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous."

Who is the 'They'?

Verse 4: "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies; What I did not steal, I then have to restore."

Verse 12: "Those who sit in the gate talk about me, And I am the song of the drunkards."

Verse 18: "Oh draw near to my soul and redeem it; Ransom me because of my enemies!"

Verse 24: "Pour out Your indignation on them, And may Your burning anger overtake them."

Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm and the 'they' being referred to are enemies of the righteous. I find it very interesting that the Psalmist says to God 'blot them out of the book of life'.

Why were they there to begin with?

Doesn't Moses ask God to forgive the sin of Israel and if He would not to blot him out of the book which God has written? Exodus 32v32

God's reply was 'Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book'

Just more things to think about.

God bless.

Doesn't Moses ask God to forgive the sin of Israel and if He would not to blot him out of the book which God has written? Exodus 32v32

God's reply was 'Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book

It gives the impression that everyone's name is in the book of life until...

Revelation gives us some interesting insights into the 'Book of Life".

Rev. 20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judge out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Apparently, there are numerous books and ONE of them is the book of life. The word "Blot" would suggest something that was written there, but now is being erased, smeared over, as another poster pointed out.

The greatest danger I see in this OSAS discussion occurs when one would hold to this position and then say they can live however they "want" to, including sin and that God will not hold him responcible, contrary to scriptures which declare that those who habitually sin will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. It is this doctrine which, IMHO, has done more to promote apostasy in this USA then anything I know.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

The greatest danger I see in this OSAS discussion occurs when one would hold to this position and then say they can live however they "want" to, including sin and that God will not hold him responcible, contrary to scriptures which declare that those who habitually sin will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. It is this doctrine which, IMHO, has done more to promote apostasy in this USA then anything I know.

That is why I do not like to use the phrase 'Once Saved Always Saved'. It has been misunderstood in the modern church to mean: 'Say this prayer and you are right with God even if you show absolutely no fruit of regeneration.'

I prefer the phrase 'Perseverance of the Saints'. Those who are truly children of God will persevere to the end and show fruit of regeneration.

Krispy

I believe if someone "falls away", then they were never truly saved to begin with.

That still leaves a conflict with the 'blotting out' scripture in Revelations and the statements in Jeremiah where God clearly changes his mind on a nation's destiny based on their decisions.

I think God gives us the freedom of choice, but foresees the choices we will make. I can 'foresee' what my daughter will do with a piece of chocolate, but her destiny doesn't force her to eat it. :-)

PassingThru

That still leaves a conflict with the 'blotting out' scripture in Revelations and the statements in Jeremiah where God clearly changes his mind on a nation's destiny based on their decisions.

Based on my reading of the bible (see Psalm 69), I do not see a conflict.

Concerning Jeremiah, did God not know the nation would repent? God simply put forward a "do this and this will happen" and "do that and that will happen", but He knew the entire time what would happen.

Isaiah 46:9-10
"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Ok- once again... The bible teaches that when God saves a man- THAT MAN WILL BE SAVED in the last day- otherwise that man was never saved.

1 John 3:6 "Whoever (unrepentantly bathes in) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

1 Peter 1:4, 5 "4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

John 3:16 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life;"

John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[a] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 10:28-29 "28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."

Eph 1:13, 14 "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"

Phil 1:6 "6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;"

Romans 6:14 "14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Phil 2:13 "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

1 John 2:19 "19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Romans 8:38-39 "38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Let me explain...

Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" IT IS CHRIST WHO BEGAN.

Phil 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." IT IS GOD WHO WORKS.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." All who have ever fallen away(permanently) were never saved in the first place.

******If you are TRULY saved(justified) you will continue being saved(sanctified) and will finally be saved(glorified).

_______________________________________________
1 John Cpts 2 & 3

"3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"4 Whoever commits(pratices) sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
________________________________________________

God hates sin and somebody who loves sin consequently hates God and is lost. If you are saved you will strive to be holy.

1 Peter 1:16
"because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.""

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

A real conversion is when somebody REPENTS of all thier sin (by the power of God). Turns away from all of it and experiences a radicaly changed life in love for God. If they don't perservere they were not saints. If somebody lives in and practices sin, they are lost.

Its not that by your works you are saved but if you are saved you have works! Otherwise you have a dead faith!

James 2:20
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

James 2:26
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

"Once saved always saved" This phrase is devastating to people who twist things to thier own destruction. The question really is...

2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."

2 Peter 1:10
"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble"

WERE YOU SAVED? DID YOU REALLY CHANGE? ARE YOU LIVING IN SIN? DO YOU PRACTICE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?????

Repent, believe, have faith in God, trust Christ's sacrifice, be "Born Again" (or regenerated), follow Christ, obey God, love God, know God, seek God, fear God all the days of your life. Do all these things with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Salvation is by Grace, through faith, in Christ Alone. Be converted! (Provided by God)
________________________________________________
John 10:29
Romans 8:38-39
Ephesians 1:13-14

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." -Martin Luther

James 5:19-20(NASB)

19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

This says to me he WAS saved and strayed from the truth. Nobody took him…HE strayed. And his soul was in jeopardy of death.

He was – saved
He was – not saved
Turn him back – He will be saved

my 2 cents

James 5:19-20(NASB)

19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Who is the brethern he is talking to?

Jam 2:2 (ASV)\tFor if there come into your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, and there come in also a poor man in vile clothing;

I used the ASV because they translate the word '[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Jam&chapter=2&verse=2&strongs=4864&page=]sunagoge[/url]' as synagogue rather then assembly.

The only other time I see that the KJV translates that word to anything other than synagogue is in Acts 13:43. It was translated "congregation" but the context plainly shows it was in a synagogue.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:43\tNow when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

I'm fairly sure that James was writing to a synagogue that may have had unbelievers in it. There were probably those that had not converted to Christ "among them."

I don't really see how anyone can believe "once saved always saved" in respects to the common belief of the doctrine. While I do believe to some degree with what krispy said "they were never saved" I definately don't think its absolute. I also don't think that Jaysaved has a good argument on Christ's message to the Church in Sardis. It's a pretty clear statement. There is 7 different churches here and he specifically singles out this one. I'm not sure how anyone can argue what is meant by Christ constantly telling the churches to repent of their sins...or else. Let's keep in mind that this is addressed to "the church". Just look at what he tells Ephesus vs.4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because THOU hast left thy first love. vs5 Remember therefore from whence THOU art fallen, and repent, and do the first works: or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU repent. Question: Does God make false promises? If they did not repent..what was the consequences. If my memory serves me correct I believe it was 5 out of 7 he told to repent. Christ called them the "Church" would he not call them the "Church" if they were not His. Bottom line is Christ always gives His church time (space) to repent. But, if they don't repent they suffer the consequences. And Yes, losing your salvation is one of them.

Suffering: it was the way of the master, should not the servant tread it still. Leonard Ravenhill

Sometimes I think there are those here who see it as a sign of spirituality to challange and attempt to debunk orthodoxy (long accepted theology). While I am all for re-thinking everything, and making changes in personal theology where it is required... I really do sense a lot of pride in this constant, critical assault on doctrines that have been established thru scripture for eons of time.

I don't think that's being fair. This thread started out of another thread by Philogos where he raised a eternal security related question.

I don't claim to be completely free of pride, but I think most who have posted here have simply tried to expressed their genuine views in a respectful manner, as you have done.

On long accepted doctrine, conflicting views on 'contentious' topics like gifts of the Spirit, Eternal Security, etc have been around for a long time. RCC is a long accepted doctrine, but that doesn't make it right.

If I'm persistent in my views, it's because I haven't been convinced otherwise. I include scriptures to support my views in most of my posts. If I misinterpreted them, why not present a correct interpretation?

For example, give an alternative interpretation of the 'blotting out' scriptures in Revelations if you are convinced that it means something else.

PassingThru

Krispy

Thank you for clarifying.

Kinda like "I know this is what has always been accepted as doctrine, but I have been enlightened to the truth!"

I think I may often coming across this way. A lot of what I write is really thinking aloud, in the same way I would in an informal discussion. I try to be careful in preceding conjectures with "I think", etc. The remainder are areas where I am totally convinced of my viewpoint and disagree with respect.

I'm writing this because we often seem to be on opposite sides of the tennis court as far as theological discussions are concerned, and I want to ensure you I'm not trying to write a fifth gospel.

PassingThru

hmmhmm wrote:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Oddly, Christian brought up in his first sentence of what he quoted what I see as the eternal answer to OSAS.

hmmhmm wrote:
[u][i][b][color=0066FF]Rev 3:5 He that overcometh,[/u] the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.[/color][/b][/i]

To those brought up in the doctrine of OSAS, their complacency is frightening. I have friends, genuine, forward walking Christians, who still believe that OSAS is enough for those who turn their back on Jesus, and walk away.

I did it myself in my young years, but I knew next to nothing, and Jesus held on tightly to me, until I could have knowledge, and eventually decide to walk by that knowledge. That is not OSAS, but Christ's mercy and grace.

Do we enter in here to the concept of Prevenient Grace, where God knows who will be saved, and will interfere to a degree to make sure those He knows about are saved will stay saved? Or is it merely Jesus's mercy to take the ignorant and weak, and strengthen them, and hold them closely, even while they sin egregiously against Him?

It is plain that one can have faith, and give it up. That's in Jesus's parable of the sower and the seeds.

[color=993300]Matthew 13
1. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
---
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

But if we at SI who are all presumably walking forward in grace, seeking to persevere, to bring forth fruit for the kingdom, can have so many views, and none have come to a concensus even on the exact scriptures that prove one side or the other, I am not surprised to find many thousands who believe OSAS, and do nothing in their initial belief but that belief is enough, and they can rest on their laurels.

Can we even find and agree on the definitive, unquestionable, proof that OSAS is not true, because we must walk forward in grace, and persevere unto the end?

To revive our churches, we must know for sure, examining the scriptures until all are convinced.
And if all cannot be convinced, then something is dreadfully wrong, and I refuse to believe it is the Bible.

I thank you for all your opinions, but in this matter, proof is required, and acceptable proof.

Oh, I know there are some who will not accept even the scriptures as evidence, but I would like to see Krispy's statement, and other's, backed by the scriptures.

I am not a OSAS person, but many I know are, and I fear for them. And so should we all.

Blessings,

Forrest

Hi Forrest,
This thread has grown so quickly It nearly passed me by but the amount of replies does prove what I was saying.That opinion including expert opinion is divided on this issue.It is not cut and dried the arguement for "once saved always saved" against the "you can loose your salvation".If grace is so easily lost we have a very small hearted God which is not the case.It goes back to the works arguement,not by works least any man boast.
The other bogus debate is that if you believe you can't loose you're salvation you can do anything and get away with it.Not the case,my sin has consequences in this life and the next.The people who believes that you cant loose salvation are just as motivated as those who believe they can.
After saying all that I didnt say you couldnt loose you're salvation,I said the debate to or for is not as straight forward as was presented.If you listen to the preachers on salvation on sermonindex they are divided as well.
I dont believe in daisy christianity he loves me,he loves me not,he loves me,i'm saved,i'm not,i'm saved,i'm not.It has to be harder to loose it than that!
Rgds staff

Actually I agree - It cannot anything quirky...God is too stable.

And I know from experience how long Jesus sticks in with you.

What troubles me is not 'Grace saves you' alone, for I believe that. It's just that if you turn away from God, as I have seen many do, assuming they are still covered by grace, you could end up in hell.

I wish people would talk OSAS on this point alone.

Blessings,

Forrest

...A bit of personal testimony here. I have come through times in my walk with God when it was a matter of life and death to lean hard on the truth that He had chosen me before the foundation of the world, that He had started a good work in me, and would be faithful to complete it, for I was one of His elect, chosen unto salvation (2 Thes. 2.13). But Lord, I've blown it... No, He said: I am faithful: I will chasten you, I will work all things together for good, and I will have the desire of My heart. My Salvation will be glorified in your life.

Then again, I've been in times when I heard the clear admonition of the Spirit warning me about my complacency: "Give diligence to make your calling and election sure" (2 Pt. 1.10).

Now what would I do? Talk back to the Spirit and say, Don't you remember telling me awhile ago, Lord, that nothing was ever going to pluck me from your hand? So what's the big deal?

...So I have learned to quit trying to line up truth against truth. You mean I'm a compromiser? No. I frankly confess this whole matter is bigger than my own understanding. Honestly, yes, it is. And so I humble myself before my Lord, and seek to walk in the Living Truth as I hear His Voice. He's the one with His hand on the handle, not me. He knows what I need in my seasons, and is faithful to minister it to me according to His own wisdom and intent foresight.

...I remember years ago reading something Tozer wrote: that truth is a two-winged bird. It needs both wings to fly. Otherwise it just spirals around and down to the ground. And that's what this issue is: not two sides, one true, the other false; but two sides of One Truth before which we need to bow and worship, not try to figure out.

AD

Who is the brethern he is talking to?

I'm fairly sure that James was writing to a synagogue that may have had unbelievers in it. There were probably those that had not converted to Christ "among them."

I don't see how that effects what I posted, or what I said about it...would you explain?

Thank you.

tjservant wrote:

Who is the brethern he is talking to?

I'm fairly sure that James was writing to a synagogue that may have had unbelievers in it. There were probably those that had not converted to Christ "among them."

I don't see how that effects what I posted, or what I said about it...would you explain?

Thank you.

Frankly TJ, I don't know who answered your original post about James 5:19-20, but the whole of the matter is laid out here:

[color=993300]James 5:10. Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
12. But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
13. Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20. Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.[/color]

The quote is to the brethern at the Temple in Jerusalem, where James almost always was, and was about bringing a Jew from the side of the Law into the belief of Grace.

The reason that James survived at all in Jerusalem is that he did not abate one iota from the Law in practice, but taught that the works of the law should flow from Faith in Salvation through Grace, for after all, the Law was not a failsafe situation, and Jesus is.

Hope I explained enough, considering I looked only at the scriptures.

Blessings,

Forrest

Hope I explained enough

Thanks...you did.

hi, if one is born from aboveand beengiven zoe life then he is gods child; chosen by God and gifted by God and saved by God. if one enters by any other gate then Jesus and His finished work;prompted by the Holy Spirit(chosen)he has no salvation. many are called and few are chosen. jimp

UniqueWebRev wrote:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh....

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

we must overcome the world...

how do we do that?

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that [b]overcometh[/b] will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

here is also something to overcome....

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast labored, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, [b]because thou hast left thy first love[/b].
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, [b]and repent[/b], and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

seems to me we must [b]overcome[/b] lukewarmnes...

and here also it speaks of overcoming...
false doctrines and prophets and holding fast and no matter what stick to the faith

Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:20 [b]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee[/b], because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that [b]overcometh[/b], and [b]keepeth my works unto the end[/b], to him will I give power over the nations:

so in my own words , we must overcome.... overcome the world the flesh the devil....

lets be overcomer's :-) i know Zac Poonen had a excellent teaching on this overcoming... just cant remember what it was called?

EDIT:
here is another verse i found that is just wonderful and full of glory and hope!

1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

anyway this is just my thoughts

God bless you all

Christian

tjservant wrote:

Who is the brethern he is talking to?

I'm fairly sure that James was writing to a synagogue that may have had unbelievers in it. There were probably those that had not converted to Christ "among them."

I don't see how that effects what I posted, or what I said about it...would you explain?

Thank you.

Sure. He was writing to a synagogue, rather than a church. The synagogue would have some Jews that were converted and possibly some that were not. Those that were "among them" that may err from the truth, were not converted. At least that is what I see. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where you can be converted, unconverted, converted unconverted, ect.

By the way, so you know where I'm coming from, I believe you can be an apostate, so I do not believe in "once saved, always saved."

Thanks PreachParsly

I thought it was talking about falling away from the truth...as in saved...then turning from it (apostate)

Thanks for explaining

The reason that James survived at all in Jerusalem is that he did not abate one iota from the Law in practice, but taught that the works of the law should flow from Faith in Salvation through Grace, for after all, the Law was not a failsafe situation, and Jesus is.

I'll point out, just to save anyone from confusion that James never taught that to [i]Gentiles[/i]. I'm sure you know that, but I'll point it out for anyone else.
Act 15:5 \tBut there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, [b]That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.[/b]
Act 15:6 \tAnd the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:13 \t And after they had held their peace, [b]James[/b] answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 \tSimeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 \tAnd to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 \tAfter this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 \tThat the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 \tKnown unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 \t[b]Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:[/b]
Act 15:20 \tBut that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
Act 15:21 \tFor Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

tjservant wrote:
Thanks PreachParsly

I thought it was talking about falling away from the truth...as in saved...then turning from it (apostate)

Thanks for explaining

:-D I believed that way at one time also, until someone pointed it out to me.

JaySaved said:

Psalm 69:28 (NASB), "May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous."

A look at the Hebrew word for "life" in this verse:

חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

It seems that it is saying the book of the "record of those alive on the earth"... not that they are in the book of life refered to in Revelation: see the emphasis on "flesh" in the defenition.

Also, remember that the NASB is based off of the "questionable" W&H manuscripts if i'm not mistaken... i'm not trying to open up another can of worms, but just something to consider...

It would seem (as was discussed in other comments) that God may have everyone in the book of life when they are born (hence if a child dies under the "age of accountability" they are not sent to hell), but when they make the choice to walk in their in-bread sin, they need the blood of Christ... i'm not sure on that one, but it's an interesting thought!!! :-(

God bless,
-nathan

It seems that it is saying the book of the "record of those alive on the earth"... not that they are in the book of life refered to in Revelation: see the emphasis on "flesh" in the defenition.

I see what you are saying, but they are both books of the 'living'. 'Book of Life' and 'Book of the living' are synonymous.

Also, remember that the NASB is based off of the "questionable" W&H manuscripts if i'm not mistaken... i'm not trying to open up another can of worms, but just something to consider...

If I am not mistaken, our discussion is focused on Psalm 69 of the Old Testament. For the OT, the NASB is based on the Masoretic Text. Westcott & Hort is a New Testament edition of the Greek, not an OT. W&H has no bearing in this discussion.

It would seem (as was discussed in other comments) that God may have everyone in the book of life when they are born (hence if a child dies under the "age of accountability" they are not sent to hell), but when they make the choice to walk in their in-bread sin, they need the blood of Christ... i'm not sure on that one, but it's an interesting thought!!!

It is an interesting thought. I have also though about the timing of the 'blotting out of the book'. (This is my opinion...I know that is dangerous) but it is possible the names of the unredeemed are blotted out of the book of life at death. What I mean is that once someone has died and they do not have the 'life of Christ' in them, they are completely dead and are taken out of the book of the living 'book of life'.

Just some thoughts.

I guess you can say its just a little sad that this is an ongoing debate. I've posted this before and really opened up for questions to 1 john 3:6 but nobody says a response yet they continue debating. I guess I'd just like to give a little scriptural support for everyone who is confused.

I do understand that some discussion are different but they wouldn't be taking place if there was a clarification of the basis of the opinions. I guess I just wanted to post some verses for those who were interested :)

3 John 3:11
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.

God bless!

dorcas wrote:

GraceAlone,

I see you have posted exactly the same in another discussion. This is confusing and makes it look as if you haven't read the other discussion, which is about something slightly [i]different[/i].

I guess you can say its just a little sad that this is an ongoing debate. I've posted this before and really opened up for questions to 1 john 3:6 but nobody says a response yet they continue debating. I guess I'd just like to give a little scriptural support for everyone who is confused.

I do understand that some discussion are different but they wouldn't be taking place if there was a clarification of the basis of the opinions. I guess I just wanted to post some verses for those who were interested :)

Having a secondary post on the same matter does confuse things and is unecessary. A lot of things don't get a response and don't forget that you are also debating just by contributing. Furthermore a search here would reveal some very long previous postings on just this same issue.

Sometimes you just want to offer some help. Anyways, thers a different post so that it can stay out of the other blogs!

God Bless ya'll

Hey JaySaved

i just read your reply to my post earlier on in the discussion.

Thanks for the info on the W&H stuff. i was unaware of the other manuscripts involved there. Thanks!

i'm still a little unsure of what you ment here:

I see what you are saying, but they are both books of the 'living'. 'Book of Life' and 'Book of the living' are synonymous.

Do you think you could explain a little more what you ment there?? and which hebrew words you are refering to?

Thanks so much for being gracious brother!

-nathan :-o

Is everyone in agreement then, that all those living (and above the age of accountability) who are in an active relationship with Christ, known as 'saved', must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith, or lose that salvation?

[color=993300]Matthew 13;18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

Blessings,

Forrest

Mahoney wrote:
...what does "continuous walk forward" mean? What does that look like?

Hebrews 10:19-39

19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And [b]if he shrinks back,[/b]
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back [b]and are destroyed,[/b] but of those who believe and are saved. {bold Mine}

In the context of this whle chapter it seems that salvation is what he is talking about. If paul encourages us not to shrink back it must surely leave the door open for the thinking that salvation can be lost.

he speaks of judgement, but only to those who turn to anything other than the perfect sacrifice of Christ.

;-)

Mahoney

I think the misunderstandings from both sides of the discussion are :-

Those that believe salvation cannot be lost, are not saying it's a frivolous "set and forget" doctrine. If a 'saved' person is lost then he was never really saved to start with.

Those that are saying that salvation can be lost are not saying it's a man-powered "salvation by works" doctrine. They are saying that a decision was required by man's free will to come to Christ, and that a similar free-willed decision allows a man to walk away from Christ.

Neither of the two views seems to provide an easy, effortless salvation. To me the practical consequences of the first view are [color=442200]"Fight hard to make sure you are saved - If you backslide you were never saved."[/color], while the consequences of the second view are [color=442200]"Fight hard to make sure you remain saved - if you backslide you are no longer saved"[/color].
[color=000099]
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[/color]
Please correct me if I've misrepresented anyone's views here.

PassingThru

* Edited grammar.

PassingThru wrote:

Neither of the two views seems to provide an easy, effortless salvation. To me the practical consequences of the first view are [color=442200]"Fight hard to make sure you are saved - If you backslide you were never saved."[/color], while the consequences of the second view are [color=442200]"Fight hard to make sure you remain saved - if you backslide you are no longer saved"[/color].
[color=000099]
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[/color]
Please correct me if I've misrepresented anyone's views here.

"Fight hard to make sure you remain saved - if you take on and start believing another Gosple you are no longer saved"
It's all about departing from the truth(1Timothy 4:1), not about how much one sins.

UniqueWebRev wrote:

Is everyone in agreement then, that all those living (and above the age of accountability) who are in an active relationship with Christ, known as 'saved', must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith, or lose that salvation?

Mahoney wrote:
Forrest,

I absolutely disagree! I disagree because your statement is entirely too subjective...what does "continuous walk forward" mean? What does that look like?

I will re-quote myself with emphasis on the particular words that you all might see that what I said was not subjective at all, but under a specific condition.

[color=0000ff]Is everyone in agreement then, that [b][u]all those living[/b][/u] (and above the age of accountability) [b][u]who are in an active relationship with Christ[/b][/u], known as 'saved', [b][u]must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith[/b][/u], or lose that salvation?[/color]

Is not faith enjoined on us as a continuous condition of salvation, the breach of which, is unbelief, and therefore, non-relationship with Christ?

Blessings,

Forrest

Here it is.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

"Not justified by the works of the law" Not justified by anything or anyone except Jesus Christ. God has made this Christ In us our justification and righteousness, for justified is;
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1344. dikaioo
Search for G1344 in KJVSL
dikaiow dikaioo dik-ah-yo'-o
from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous.
Christ is our justifier, that is the Christ that is birthed in us by Incorruptable Seed, regenerating, sanctifing, the believer from the nature of Satan to the nature of God by the Christ in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus , who of God is made unto us wisdom , and righteousness , and sanctification , and redemption :

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

Sanctification, this is our new nature by the Christ in us: Strong's Greek Dictionary
38. hagiasmos
Search for G38 in KJVSL
agiasmoV hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos'
from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

Satan out, Christ In, old nature, Satan's, New Nature, God's in Christ Jesus.

Not a people of God but of Satan.
But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is our mercy. "Created in Christ Jesus", "His workmanship" "Grace and Faith" and that not of ourselves, "it is the Gift of God"

What is "it"? Strong's Greek Dictionary
1435. doron
Search for G1435 in KJVSL
dwron doron do'-ron
a present; specially, a sacrifice:--gift, offering.

It is all Christ our all in all that we are in Christ Jesus our Glory. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

His working, not ours, and His works work in us "mightily". We have now been given the irreversible Gift, for God is not an Indian Giver, is He?

In Christ: Phillip

I care nothing about works.

I care nothing about how one gets saved.

I am asking, if you stop believing, after you have believed, are you still saved. Does grace extend that far?

For that is what once saved, always saved is stating.

And telling me that if someone stops believing, they were never saved in the first place is not to the point.

OSAS says once saved, always saved. If it not's true in and of itself, please, just say so!

Blessings,

Forrest

Quote:

"""
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

There aren't any qualifers as to who can call upon the name of the Lord and who can't, nope, it's "WHOSOEVER"!!"""

There is a qualifier, it is God that must call before any man can call on Him. Just like Love of God, we cannot love unless He loves us first.
"and in the remnant whom the LORD shallcall."

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

No love unless He loves us. We cannot be saved unless He saves us. Just like Jesus said He has not lost any that the Father gives Him except the son of perdition to fulfill the scriptures.

God will not give any to Christ then takes them back because of their puny attempt to get away from God. Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The saved of the Lord are not those that draw back, neither can they.

Once saved, always saved, for it is not up to man to be saved and those saved will not be lost. John 17:15-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

They are kept by the Word of God, that is Jesus Christ Himself and He will loose none.

John 17:12-14 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Was the lost one saved or even believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

No love unless He loves us. We cannot be saved unless He saves us. Just like Jesus said He has not lost any that the Father gives Him except the son of perdition to fulfill the scriptures.

God has already loved us in sending His Son... *EDIT* His Love is to all. (John 3:15-17) And as for the "limitation" of Him having to call people before they come to Him, i fully believe it, except for this one thing- mainly- that He calls ALL men:

Joh 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

So we see that not only is it the Father that draws men, but the Son does to. And herein lies a promise to all, that God has opened the door of salvation for all men to be saved, for He is not willing that any should perish, but accourding to His foreknowledge, He has predestined us to be conformed to His will in obedience...

Now, after we are born again, are we good till death no matter what? i cannot bring myself to believe that. We can give up that gift of God, just as we could take it...

Here is a GOOD sermon by John Wesly that i would reccomend to all:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=6211]On Grieving the Holy Sprit[/url]

God bless you all.
-nathan

*EDIT*= i remvoved a strong statement after considering it, and finding it more offensive than nessesary to the conversation... my appologies to anyone who read it! God bless!

OSAS says once saved, always saved. If it not's true in and of itself, please, just say so!

If those who will be saved were foreknown from the foundation of the earth, then, by necessity, they were from God's vantage always saved by His grace.

I believe it is summed up well to say that [b]the method which God has chosen to preserve His saints is [i]persevearance[/i][/b], and that being sustained by Himself and cooperated with by His saints.

Falling away altogether would be a demonstration that one had not been cooperative with the Spirit of grace, and would therefore have never received a regenerated nature that is in the sight of God both child, heir, and bride to Him.

The best I can see it, the saved are saved at all times from eternity, while in linear time the "unrevealed saved" are brought out from destruction by the calling to repentance. They are proven by perseverance and declared at the judgment.

How all of this works in federation with human responsibility, I don't know, but I can say this much: no one who abandons faith altogether is called "saved" in scripture; no one who was predestined can ever be lost.

I feel I've added nothing to this discussion. :-(

Hello...

I typically try to avoid such discussions about doctrinal issues that are so hotly debated. There are scriptures on both sides that seem to indicate the validity of each point. We must remember that pure "truth" does not contridict itself.

Have you ever met a person who walked wholeheartedly with the Lord and then fell into a life of sin? Have [u]YOU[/u] ever been tempted to fall into a life of certain sin?

What is the end result for an individual who departs the faith and enters back into the world?
Was that person ever truly saved?
What is the spiritual condition of such an individual?

To claim that a person can live in sin while walking [u]with[/u] Christ is dishonest to the faith. They CANNOT walk together if this person is living in sin. I don't believe that an individual can even HONESTLY PRAY while living in blatant, unrepentent sin. An individual (including a pastor) may pretend that all is well, while they are actually dying on the inside.

Regardless of whether we want to use/justify the term "once saved/always saved" or "once justified/always justified", the Word of God is expressly clear about the end of an individual living in sin. If you are living in blatant, unrepentent sin -- you shall [u]not[/u] inherit the Kingdom of God. To say otherwise is to insult the Spirit of Grace (Hebrews 10:29). The Word of God is also clear that it is indeed possible to depart the faith and run ahead of the Lord (II John 1:8-9).

What is the bottom line in such a discussion?
- Don't die in sin.

:-)

Hi,
In Response to below,we all die in sin but whether that sin is atoned for that is the question.
[color=000099]What is the bottom line in such a discussion?[/color]
Don't die in sin
rgds staff[

Hi staff...

It is indeed possible to live in continual sin. What is the end of a person who has left Christ, departed the faith and returned to a life of sin?

That is the "die in sin" that I am referring to. Some individuals argue that a person who has come to Christ can never walk away. That simply isn't true. We are all being tempted to walk away daily. Do we remain -- even after a failure -- with a desire to know and fellowship with Christ? Or do we walk away and abandon our relationship for the love of this world? I know some individuals who have done the latter. Yes, they live in misery. Yet they continue to be bound in their sin.

What is the end of such an individual? Were they EVER saved?

The bottom line, in my opinion, is DO NOT DIE IN SIN.

:-)

Thanks to those of you that took a stand, even if I don't agree with it.

To me, Once Saved, Always Saved, is a foolish reassurance given to those that want to do as they choose from time to time, but generally want to have Jesus.

It's a bit like having your cake and eating it too. Not possible.

Listen and hear what Jesus said on the matter to John:

[color=993300]Rev. 3:7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Jesus speaks of several things here, and although this passage is primarily used to interpret escatology, and to delineate the conditions of who will be kept from the wrath of the Day of Jacob's Trouble (The Tribulation), it is very specific about what Jesus wants from those He will save from wrath, whether on earth or at a day of judgement to come.

Most of all, He speaks of not giving in to the temptation to stay safe when persecuted; to not deny His Name, and above all, keep on keepin' on.

He warns us to hold onto what we have, that little faith in Him by which we are saved.

Salvation is conditional. We have to believe. And despite all the troubles of this life, we must continue to beat up our flagging belief in Him, and struggle onwards.

We are not talking about the broad and easy path, but one that get's harder to follow the longer you press into it. For as we persevere in our miniscule faith in Jesus, the Holy Spirit does work in us, 'growing' us up into Jesus. And when we don't persevere, the Holy Spirit waits to see what we will do. We can grieve the Spirit away by ignoring Him, and doing as we please.

It matters nothing to those on a timeline what God knew or knows outside that timeline. None of us will know for sure whether we were 'chosen', of those that were guaranteed to Jesus as His Bride until we are with Jesus. And consequently, I always wonder a little at those that are so darned sure they know what God knows.

On this topic one can quote scripture until the Rapture, and never win, because it isn't a contest of whose doctrine is right or wrong, but what Jesus wants of us.

He wants our obedience as proof of our love for Him, and for us to love one another as we love ourselves. But He knew we could never do it well, or He would not have had to come to rescue us in return for the simple belief that He is who He said He was.

And if we did have faith enough as a mustard seed, which is not much, we could move mountains. But despite my very real confidence in Jesus and His promises, and the promises throughout the Word, I haven't yet been able to move a mountain. Or kill a tree. Or heal someone.

Jesus doesn't require very much. A little belief, and the showing of some love, for His sake. But He does require that, and a great deal of day in, day out perserverance in our tiny bit of faith.

We have to walk in our faith, and act on it, as if it were something we could hold in our hands, see, and touch, when we cannot do anything of the kind. We have to act in belief that He will keep His promises, and we have to do so in a measure of confidence, that He will neither leave us or forsake us, because He said He wouldn't.

Our faith is our gift to Him. Salvation is His to us. If we take our gift back, He takes His back. If we give our faith again, He'll give us our Salvation again. But if we keep taking it away, He gets tired of our childishness, and turns us over to ourselves.

It isn't a matter of how big our faith is or how well we faithe it.

We do not start in love in our walk with Jesus. We start in faith, and even that is a gift from Him to us, to be able to believe, based on the hearing of the Word.

What we have to do with that faith is unique. We have to fall in love with the One Who gave us our tiny measure of faith.

Faith does waver and flicker in the winds and trials of this life. You can lose and gain your faith twenty times a day in the beginning. Faith is a notoriusly fickle thing. But once in love with the God who loved us enough to take our sins and die for us, that we might have His Righteousness, we can get from one day to the next, which is what He requires.

He Himself told us not to worry. Our relationship with Jesus, and our extent of life, is a one day at a time affair. We have now, and no more. Stop fussing over the details, and love Him. Just love Him. He will do all the rest.

Blessings,

Forrest

It seems to me salvation is the end of our faith, And that true faith will lead us there. We are told that salvation is through sanctification of the spirit, by believing.. By obeying...

Just what is it that we are saved from? From hell, or are we saved from sin? If the salvation of God is salvation from sin, if the liberty we are given is liberty to obey unto righteousness
then as we have free will and choose to sin or by the power of a new life to overcome and obey the one we call Lord it seems to me we can walk away from salvation. In 1 Peter sanctification of the spirit is before obedience and only as a person obeys is the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus...

You know there are scriptures that can be used both ways and so one day I finally said " If you are, you will" and settled all the contentions with myself. But we can recieve the grace of God in vain... It becomes of no effect if we do not do as He says.. Why do you call me Lord, Lord?

2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; [By obedience to His truth]

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Perhaps the root of the issue is the answer to the question of what the words "born again", "new creature", "new nature", "son of God", and "alive in Christ" mean. If those words are applied to the converted believer, then are they real concepts or merely figurative, potential and terminable either by God or man? And if terminable are the meaning of these words such that you can move in and out of the application of them to yourself on a recurring basis dependent upon your faith level? I believe that scripture provides that my salvation is dependent on my continuing in belief in Jesus which belief is founded exclusively on faith. I believe the scriptures say that faith is a gift of God. I believe that God has made clear He will not let me fall away nor will He let anyone else or anything else snatch me from Himself. Unbelief is a lack of faith and God has given me faith and promised not to take it away. Unbelief appears to be the only way to fall away because Christ has already forgiven all other sins past, present and future. If God won't take away my faith once given then I will always believe. I don't think I've ever heard of one person who has said yes I believe that Christ died on the Cross for me and I receive Him but I reject His salvation and prefer to go to Hell.

Hi,
Just on below by UniqueWebRev You can have you can have you're cake and eat it; its called "grace".The message to the church at Philadelphia was to a corporate body and not to an individual.Salvation is not conditional because saving grace is not conditional other than accepting Jesus.
This below is a myth by those who cant understand why people habitually sin and by those who dont understand why people work for Christ in the first place.I have been saved,I am being saved,ultimately I will be saved.I have been saved by the death of Jesus,I am being saved by the ongoing work in my life, I will be saved ultimately when I die or am raptured.

[color=0000FF]To me, Once Saved, Always Saved, is a foolish reassurance given to those that want to do as they choose from time to time, but generally want to have Jesus.[/color]

We didnt get saved in the first place because we suddenly realised that we loved Christ but we got saved for selfish reasons;we realised by the spirit where we were headed.
Again I'm not saying that you cant loose your salvation just that the arguement for and against is quite equal.
rgds Staff
p.s My understanding of the mustard seed and moving mountains is that he was talking about a mountain of unbelief .

staff wrote:
Hi,
Just on below by UniqueWebRev: You can have, you can have your cake and eat it; its called "grace".

[b][color=660000]Sorry, Staff, you cannot deliberately keep on sinning without grieving away the Holy Spirit. Those that claim the OSAS doctrine want to be able to never trouble themselves as to their behavior, because they are always safe. But it is not true.[/color][/b]

[color=993300] Romans 1:17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;[/color]

The message to the church at Philadelphia was to a corporate body and not to an individual.

[b][color=660000]The message of the entire Bible is to the entire Corporate Church, for the edification of each member. Yes, in the message to the church at Philadelphia, Jesus was praising a few for their very little strength, and as such, is an example to us all of what He wants![/b][/color]

Salvation is not conditional because saving grace is not conditional other than accepting Jesus.

[b][color=660000]Staff, this is the condition I was talking about! Accepting Jesus means believing on Him, because of the testimony of others. And you don't stop believing without consequences.[/b][/color]

[color=993300]Romans 10: 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 17: 20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Romans 6:12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[/color]

[b][color=660000]We hear the Word, and by the hearing of it, receive sufficient faith to decide to believe that Christ died for our sins, and that through Him we too can be saved.

But if we stop believing, and turn away from Jesus, and act deliberately in unrighteousness, can we expect grace to cover us forever?

Those that believe that OSAS expect that any amount of sin be covered, simply because they believe in Jesus.

I am not saying that grace does not cover our sins as the Holy Spirit works within us to become perfect and holy in thought. I am saying that you cannot have a lot of deliberate sin going on, and still be working towards holiness.

Careless sin, the habitual sins of our dead bodies that we learn to 'die to', of course are covered by grace, but to sin deliberately, repeatedly, in full knowledge that what you do is sin means you are in un-belief and the covenent is broken.

And this is the position of many who believe that once they have tossed their sins on Jesus, they can continue to sin perpetually, and Jesus will still cover it. Walking in deliberate sin is un-belief, and breaks the covenent.

How many times has God said "Return to me, and I will return to you!"[/b][/color]

This below is a myth by those who can't understand why people habitually sin and by those who don't understand why people work for Christ in the first place. I have been saved,I am being saved, ultimately I will be saved.I have been saved by the death of Jesus,I am being saved by the ongoing work in my life, I will be saved ultimately when I die or am raptured.

[b][color=660000]And you work with the Holy Spirit to overcome your sins as well, do you not? You know you cannot be perfect until your body is glorified, and you strive for holiness as you walk the straight and narrow path. You were/are/am/will be saved because you still walk that path, and have not turned away to the broad and easy pathway to destruction.[/b][/color]

We didnt get saved in the first place because we suddenly realised that we loved Christ but we got saved for selfish reasons;we realised by the spirit where we were headed.

[b][color=660000]Yes, quite true, and I'm very relieved that I was called, heard the gospel, and decided to believe so I would get the good package, not the bad package of eternity. And I'm glad you did too.[/b][/color]

Again I'm not saying that you can't lose your salvation just that the argument for and against is quite equal.

[b][color=660000]No, the cases are not equal...they are opposites. You can believe and continue believing and be saved and continue being saved. And continued belief keeps the Holy Spirit working with you to the last day on earth, towards holiness in our hearts and minds, not in our bodies. Or you can change your heart and mind, sin in your heart and mind, and your ultimate destiny is changed as well.

Once Saved, Always saved, no matter what you do, is a lie. You cannot have both righteousness through belief and unrighteousness through unbelief at the same time. Or you are having your cake and eating it too.

Blessings,

Forrest[/b][/color]

p.s My understanding of the mustard seed and moving mountains is that he was talking about a mountain of unbelief.

[b][color=660000]Sorry, I read the Bible quite literally, for Jesus promised a great deal in that discussion.[/color][/b]

[color=993300]Matthew 17:14. And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15. Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.[/color]

hi,at what point in the process does man become the center of his salvation? it confuses this old man when we preach salvation through the blood of Jesus applied by the Holy Spirit and then talk of being saved by our own abilities to maintain some form of perfection lest we loose this loan or gift.be sure your sins will find you out.many christians are in jail and in hospitals because of sins.this is sewing and reaping. butif Jesus is the savior then He alone can save and keep and glorify(when i see the blood i will passover you) He( the Father does not even look at you ,He looks at the blood of the Lamb...the jews at the first passover could have had egyptian first born in their houses and the blood would have saved them. we have esteemed ourselves to highly to think we can do anything that is more important than the blood of Christ that was shed for us.the tree adam ate was the tree of the knowlege of GOOD and evil only trusting in the finished work of the cross will save and keep and deliver and anything else is another gospel.jimp

Hi Again,
In regards to below this is again part of the myth about sin in the church and its affects.I am not claiming osas but that both sides of the debate have their merit and that "grace" knowing you are saved despite ongoing sin is an encouragement rather than you're veiw that grace is a license to sin.
The Holy Spirit is indwelt and it takes alot for that to change.The holy spirit can be grieved but not away.When Jesus died for me all my sins were in the future,he knew my sins before I did and still saved me.You can have unrighteousness and believe.
[color=000099]Sorry, Staff, you cannot deliberately keep on sinning without grieving away the Holy Spirit. Those that claim the OSAS doctrine want to be able to never trouble themselves as to their behavior, because they are always safe. But it is not true.[/color]
rgds staff

Salvation is not a [b]thing[/b] that we must maintain, it is a relationsip!

Ech person in a marriage must [b]do[/b] there part to [b]maintain[/b] the relationsip.

If one member of a marriage moves awy from the other and never writes or calls or anything for that matter of marriage, the relationsip ends ond only become a peace of paper called a marriage license.
However, this is the merriage between God and man, that they may know Jesus, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom God has sent.[b]John 17:3[/b]
If one is not continualy getting to know Jesus, what do you think?

One can not denie that they were once saved, because the merriage license prooves that, however, if one dies in the state of that marriage relationsip being broken, what do you think?

jimp wrote:
hi,at what point in the process does man become the center of his salvation? it confuses this old man when we preach salvation through the blood of Jesus applied by the Holy Spirit and then talk of being saved by our own abilities to maintain some form of perfection lest we loose this loan or gift.be sure your sins will find you out.many christians are in jail and in hospitals because of sins.this is sewing and reaping. butif Jesus is the savior then He alone can save and keep and glorify(when i see the blood i will passover you) He( the Father does not even look at you ,He looks at the blood of the Lamb...the jews at the first passover could have had egyptian first born in their houses and the blood would have saved them. we have esteemed ourselves to highly to think we can do anything that is more important than the blood of Christ that was shed for us.the tree adam ate was the tree of the knowlege of GOOD and evil only trusting in the finished work of the cross will save and keep and deliver and anything else is another gospel.jimp

Jimp, all I am saying is that you must believe, and go on believing, love and go on loving, or you break your end of the covenent that Jesus died to give us.

Those that believe in the Once Saved, Always Saved position are attempting to say that a one time decision for Christ cannot be unmade by future beliefs and actions.

And you are not old!

Blessings,

Forrest

staff wrote:
Hi Again,
In regards to below this is again part of the myth about sin in the church and its affects.I am not claiming osas but that both sides of the debate have their merit and that "grace" knowing you are saved despite ongoing sin is an encouragement rather than you're veiw that grace is a license to sin.
The Holy Spirit is indwelt and it takes alot for that to change.The holy spirit can be grieved but not away.When Jesus died for me all my sins were in the future,he knew my sins before I did and still saved me.You can have unrighteousness and believe.
[color=000099]Sorry, Staff, you cannot deliberately keep on sinning without grieving away the Holy Spirit. Those that claim the OSAS doctrine want to be able to never trouble themselves as to their behavior, because they are always safe. But it is not true.[/color]
rgds staff

Staff, I am not talking about the normal, unable to keep sinning problem that we have as part of our human condition. That is covered by grace, or we would none of us be saved at all.

I am speaking about an assumption that Once Saved, Always Saved promotes, is the idea that a single decision cannot be undone by future actions of deliberate sin being done in the mistaken belief that the Holy Spirit will hang on forever.

He wants to, but under certain circumstances He can't.

I know the passage you speak of:

[color=993300]17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27. Neither give place to the devil.
28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.[/color]

Unfortunately, we can turn away from God, and end up grieving the Holy Spirit away, not because He wants to leave, but because of our actions:

[color=993300]16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.[/color]

One can take the devils's mark after taking grace from Christ, and you need not be in the Tribulation to fall that far. Alas, people are doing it even as we speak, starting out in the faith, then turning away from God.

No, the Holy Spirit will not leave us of His choice...but we can leave Him, and consequently force Him away.

Blessings,

Forrest

Logic wrote:
Salvation is not a [b]thing[/b] that we must maintain, it is a relationsip!

Ech person in a marriage must [b]do[/b] there part to [b]maintain[/b] the relationsip.

If one member of a marriage moves awy from the other and never writes or calls or anything for that matter of marriage, the relationsip ends ond only become a peace of paper called a marriage license.
However, this is the merriage between God and man, that they may know Jesus, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom God has sent.[b]John 17:3[/b]
If one is not continualy getting to know Jesus, what do you think?

One can not denie that they were once saved, because the merriage license prooves that, however, if one dies in the state of that marriage relationsip being broken, what do you think?

This is the difficulty with the Once Saved, Always Saved position. It assumes that WE cannot sin so much, so badly, so deliberately, with such malice and viciousness that the Holy Spirit is forced away from us.

To me, telling anyone that Once Saved, Always Saved is giving them permission to sin, instead of saying, God will never leave you if you do not leave Him, and leave Him, and leave Him, until God himself is so sickened by your behavior that He sadly turns you over to yourself, and lets you go.

Yes, our tendency to sin, our sin nature, is covered. But there is still that straight and narrow path to be walked, and if you don't go forward on it, you may find that you have turned around and gone back too far.

Having been such a scandalous sinner in my day, I wonder that Jesus hung on as long as He did, except that somehow, He managed to sneak enough word into me when I wasn't looking, that I would get up, dust myself off, and try again to stay on the path. And then I'd fall, and we would start over again, though much of the time I didn't even know it was going on.

I went dangerously far from God. I don't recommend it...The devil was a hair's breadth away from winning in my life.

Yes, Jesus kept trying as long as I kept on responding. I don't want to think of what might have happened if I had said 'no' one too many times.

Blessings,

Forrest

Loosing our salvation makes God a looser and not able to keep that which He has birthed as son's. A Father who cannot keep son's, whose fault is it, the son or the father. God wanted to be a Father before the foundation of the world ever began because Christ was already chosen to be in those the Father gives birth to.

Much more it makes the Cross conditional to man's sin and not on the greatest single Godly act that ever has been, that being to kill His only begotten Son to purchase the life of God's son's He gives birth to, that is born again children of God destined for the Father's house.

It is impossible for man to believe that God is in control of all that man is or will be, that is in Christ and keep him in Christ because the Cross was so important to Him and us who are saved by it.

God won't abort any of His children. Why would a child of God want to walk away from love himself, once he understands by the Holy Spirit that is in him forever, not just until a man says, ok now I am going to walk away from God.
The Holy Spirit is in man who believes and the Spirit of Christ birthed in him forever, how can he be lost.

In Christ forever: Phillip

Can you lose your salvation? Or do you have to walk away? One man's opinion

God's love is a MORAL love and a conditional love. "Relationship love" is NOT unconditional!
Many have taught that the love of God is an "unconditional" love in relationships: That we are to "love" those who have violated us without seeking justice or protection from that violation. "Unconditional love" as currently taught by the church imprisons people in bad marriages.

By: Stephen Gola

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Is God’s Love “Conditional” or “Unconditional”?

Is the “love” of God conditional or unconditional? It is both, depending upon relationship:

“Non-relationship love” is unconditional.
“Relationship love” is conditional.

1. God’s “non-relationship love” is what unconditionally draws us as “sinners” to a holy God to receive the conditions of salvation— the new birth.

For God SO LOVED THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16.)

2. God’s “relationship love” is what conditionally offers us as “His children” an intimate relationship with God through continual obedience to His voice and commandments.

He who HAS MY COMMANDMENTS AND KEEPS THEM, it is he who loves Me. And HE WHO LOVES ME will be loved by my father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. (John 14:21.

For the most part in this teaching, we will deal with “relationship love” which is a “conditional love.” Not understanding the difference between the two has caused great hardship and many lives to be hurt. The Lord has revealed this to heal His people.

Love: It's Moral, It's Conditional

Four Kinds of Love

There are four kinds of "love" needed to make a marriage relationship complete. They are AGAPE, PHILEO, STORGE, and EROS. All are essential in a marriage. The highest form of these types of love is agape. Agape love is an unselfish committed love. It loves when all other types of love quit, and cares when there is no apparent reason to care. Agape is not an unconditional love but a conditional committed love.

Phileo love is the kind of love that makes agape love enjoyable. Phileo love is having tender affection toward your mate. Most friendships are built on phileo love. Phileo love is that "something" that you see in another person that draws you to be their friend. It's one thing to unselfishly commit yourself to love (agape) someone who you do not like to be around because they irritate you. It's quite another thing to unselfishly commit yourself to love someone who is tenderly affectionate (phileo) toward you.

Another kind of love needed in a marriage is storge. Storge is a physical show of affection that results from a pure motive. It may be a hug, a kiss, or another expression of genuine affection. Because males are different than females, the wife usually needs this affectionate kind of love more from her husband than her husband needs from her.

Eros love is needed to make a marriage. Eros is the fulfillment of the physical sexual desire that a husband and wife show toward each other. The sex act has its greatest fulfillment when all the emotions of love and affection are its driving force. It's when "...the two ...become ONE FLESH" (Matthew 19:5).

Unconditional Love, Defined

In Christiandom in general, we have been taught to "unconditionally" love—in this case, your spouse. The teaching of "unconditional" love implies that no matter how your spouse treats you, abuses you or corrupts you and your family, whether by legal or illegal means, you are to "love" them. Essentially, we have been taught that "unconditional" love is a love without moral boundaries.

The Meaning Of Love

To understand the meaning of love we must first understand the fundamental character of love—the basis on which love is defined. Can love be unconditional? And is love able (or should it be able) to cover all actions and or behaviors without any corrective actions?

The universal definition of love is from Love Himself—God. We will see that love is moral if it is to be love at all. Within a wider sense of community, every human right (legal and social) is founded on the concept that love must be moral. Love, to be love, inherently has boundaries and standards. To love our fellow-man, morality obligates us to provide them with social and legal respect: protection from our immoral actions.

The Basis For Knowing We Are Loved

Therefore, to be LOVED by others logically implies that we are being respectfully treated with the same moral obligations by those who claim to love us. This is what Jesus meant when He said to "...love your enemies..." (Matthew 5:44): extend to those who mistreat you the same moral obligations as you would extend to someone you deeply love or respect. In other words, be just, be true and do righteous acts without respect of persons. To teach that love is unconditional destroys this truth.

When we understand that love is conditional it has liberating implications regarding the nature of Justice Himself, the nature of a just government and the nature of justice within the family. The Biblical definition of love is found in the understanding of who God is and knowing Him personally. Teaching that love is unconditional denies the truth that Love Himself is moral.

God, Love And Morality

"If you love (agape) Me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15). The part of the Scripture that states "If you love Me" is the conditional part of us keeping God's covenant. Keeping the commandments—the conditions of the covenant, is our direct response back to God which displays that we do indeed love Him. Without the "keeping of the commandments" of the covenant, there is NO display of love back to God. Because "love" is the display of morality, justice and truth it is our gauge to recognize whether others love us and whether we love others.

Even though covenants and relationships are conditional, God commands for us to always extend love—to be moral, just and true to those who are not fulfilling their part of the covenant. The Scripture that states for us to "love your enemies" is NOT a command to "unconditionally" love our enemies, but rather, to morally love them unconditionally.

This means God's love relationship with us is based upon moral absolutes. Therefore, we have those same moral absolutes in our relationships with others. Let's take a look at these moral absolutes within the Ten Commandments.

The Duties Of The Ten Commandments Give Us Protection

Let us review some of these Commandments to establish our right to be protected.

1. You shall not have other gods before Me: The commitment to put God first in any relationship means that God will never tell you that you are bound to a relationship where you cannot enjoy a moral lifestyle.

2. You shall not take the Lord's name in vain: The commitment not to have a loose mouth but to guard the relationship. It is the obligation to have self control and the duty to control what comes out of our mouth.

3. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy: The commitment to pull away from the week's work and rest. It is a need and duty to enjoy rest and peace from the other six days of work. It is a time of togetherness.

4. Honor your father and mother: The commitment to honor our parents for God's sake, not ours. It is the promise in keeping this duty that gives us a longer happier life on this earth.

5. You shall not murder: Commitment to control anger and to take proper moral action for restitution instead of taking matters into our own hands. It is the duty of the law to protect us, and our duty to protect others (See Romans 13).

6. You shall not commit adultery: The commitment not to violate marriage. It is our duty to remain faithful: emotionally and physically connected to our spouse.

7. You shall not steal: The commitment to work and save in order to purchase what we desire. It is the privilege to own and the protection from theft.

8. You shall not bear false witness: The commitment not to lie to get ahead or to look better than you actually are. It is our privilege to know the truth and to take action upon that truth known.

9. You shall not covet your neighbors stuff, wife, house, etc: A commitment to be content with where you are until you work your plan to get to where you want to be. You have a promise to prosper in all things.

In these commandments are the very promises to enjoy a fruitful life. The greatest commandment that God has given us is for us to walk in "love" (Matt 22:36-40). LOVE IS OUR MORAL FOUNDATION; not even God varies from it.

The Right OF Protection Is Founded In Knowing Who God Is

Psalm 89:14 states: "Righteousness (righteous acts) and justice are the foundation of Your throne; mercy and truth go before Your face."

Word Picture:

God is love (1John 4:8), God is moral, God is just, and God does only righteous acts.

Love Himself sits upon a throne of authority.

His throne is positioned upon a foundation built of justice and righteousness.

This is WHO love is! He cannot vary in any way from being just, true and doing what is righteous.

This is WHY God cannot just "let things go—sweep them under the proverbial rug"—it is a legal thing. Because He is love, He is moral. Because He is moral, He is just. Because He is just, He always does righteous acts. Because this is who He is and we are made in His image, He gives us these same moral obligations through His commandments to guide our lives. This is the basis of a great relationship: whether that relationship is between man and man or God and man.

God loves everyone—sinner and saint alike! God who is Love: "demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Even though God is love, He is just, righteous and true. Because He is just, righteous and true, it becomes a legal matter which demands a right response. If we do not respond to God's legal demands of justice we will not be legally "justified by His blood... (and)...saved from wrath..." (Romans 5:9). Therefore, we will endure the punishment of wrath because we have rejected righteousness, justice and truth.

Because God is love, He requires people to love, to be just, moral and true. Those who order their lives in the realm of hate, injustice, immorality with deceptions and lies will reap the penalty (or fruit) thereof. Those who order their lives in the realm of love, justice, morality and truth will reap the blessings (or fruit) thereof. Everybody is treated fairly—you reap exactly what you sow—no more, no less! Living a "holy" life is living out love, justice, righteousness and truth, simultaneously. This is what the Scriptures mean in 1 Peter 1:14-16: Be "as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts (strong pressures of the flesh)...but... be holy for I am holy."

Love without morals is to live under tyranny—which is an abuse of authority.

Love has boundaries, love has morals, and love is conditional!

Committed Love, Defined

“Committed love” is vastly different than “unconditional love.” A person of committed love does not take things personally even though they have been personally attacked; rather, they purpose to understand the heart of the person of whom is their focus. A person of committed love has made the decision to develop their self in the character of Who they are: patience, joy, self control, kindness, goodness, endurance, gentleness, faithfulness and meekness. They use all means available to accomplish this: through self-discipline, prayer, the media, studying, reading the Bible and personal experience. A person of committed love has chosen to take the roll of helper rather than accuser in order to develop and to move toward maturity those of whom it is committed to. Through their very character they tenderheartedly and purposely provoke those who should be showing love but are not. In essence, “unconditional love,” a love without conditions, is a lazy love. It overlooks rather than understands. It allows rather than safeguards. (See article on The Extreme Significance of The Fruit of The Spirit.)

Application To Marriage And Relationships

Marriage IS a lifetime commitment; however, it is not a lifetime commitment without conditions.

When we are wrongly taught or erroneously told to be submissive to the immoralities of a spouse we are submitting to slavery and violating the First Commandment to not have any other gods before us. Because God is moral, He has commanded us to rule our lives by that same standard. These are our duties whereby we enjoy life; and have been commanded to extend those same duties to others. We are commanded to live within those freedoms in all situations of life.

When a man or woman attempts to live under the assumptive teaching that he or she must love their spouse unconditionally, they have no moral basis on which to request divorce for abandonment or continued adultery; they have no basis whereby they may leave a relationship because of physical and or psychological abuse. A marriage with no conditions is not a marriage.

This concept of "unconditional love" imprisons a person. It denies that a person has any human worth. When a spouse, parent, sister or brother is taught that they must love unconditionally, they have lost the Biblically-stated privilege to remove themselves from an evil environment or reject any behavior that is not consistent with Biblical teachings.

Because God's love has been wrongly taught as being "unconditional," it has stripped away justice for those who have had crimes done against them. For those seeking justice, many have been labeled as "unmerciful" and "vengeful." The implication is that they cannot be genuinely walking the Christian walk if they will not "forgive" the criminal unconditionally—meaning not to pursue justice. To pursue justice is a God-ordained thing (see Romans 13). Remember, each time a person is told that God loves unconditionally, it implies (and is taught) that all are required to love unconditionally.

God loves because He is love. Because women are more emotional then men, some men say, "She is only acting that way because she is a woman." A woman acts the way she is because she is a woman. Men act the way men act because they are men. Love acts the way He is because He is love. Though God is love, even in His mercy He never just "sweeps our sins and misgivings under the proverbial rug." God forgives when we ask. However, He still requires that we always make the situation right. Forgiving someone does not mean they then continue as nothing happened. Rather, it gives them an open door to make things right.

See also Living A Sinless Life (Not A Sin-proof Life) and
What Does "For Better or for Worse" Mean in a Marriage?

All Rights Reserved, © Copyright 2006 by Stephen Gola

(All Scriptures taken from the King James Version Bible or the New King James version.)

******ALL TEACHINGS MAY BE USED WITHOUT PERMISSION TO TEACH AND TRAIN GOD'S PEOPLE. PLEASE KEEP THE COPYRIGHT INTACT.******

Eternal Security is not up to us. Just like a baby being born is not up to the baby. When God planned before the foundation of the world to have son's that are in Christ Jesus, he did not ask if the son's wanted to be born again. His birthing of His only begotten son in Mary was His choice not hers, all she did was agree with God. I think that is enough, if the Holy Spirit appeared to us and said God is going to birth the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ His Son in you all we can do is agree.

Salvation is up to God not man or He would not have had to kill His only begotten Son to accomplish the act. Who are we to judge God in what He is doing and what He is going to accomplish in the life of the son's He gives birth to. Eternal security is up to Him, If He makes a mistake in birthing a son into His kingdom, which I don't believe He can or would do, then it is still up to Him to apply His perfect justice and He has, that is Jesus Christ is our justification and righteousness, not what we do. He has set us free in Christ Jesus to be son's while we are here or in His House. That is up to Him when they are trained to be His son's. Some here and some there, but they are still His son's if Christ is birthed in them.

Religion puts it upon man and what he does to make son's. God has made sure man cannot do anything to be a son of God. It is up to Him. All we can do is believe what God has done. This is not an ism, it is the truth of the scriptures. God never makes a mistake, even from the beginning of time as we know it, He is still in charge and making decisions from His will, not ours.

Dan 11:16 But he that cometh against Him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before Him: and He shall stand in the glorious land, which by His hand shall be consumed.

1Cr 7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

God will keep the Bride of Christ and decreed it in His Heart.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?

Jam 1:18 Of His own will begat He us with the Word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

"Once saved always saved" is a stupid saying of man. But Eternal Security must come from God by His choice. John 5:37-44 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

This is eternal security: Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Forget the argument and seek life eternal, which is surly Eternal Security, and life eternal is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, birthed by the Father and not the choice of man.

Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Do we know Jesus Christ and the Father? Jhn 7:29 But I know him: for I am from Him, and He hath sent me.

John knew Him, and I know Him. I want to know Him more, throughout all eternal time and in that security I stand.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I know Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His saying.

Jhn 14:7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

I have seen Jesus Christ in my brothers and sisters and henceforth I know Jesus Christ and His Father.

Do we know the Holy Spirit? Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Before by new birth the Holy Spirit was with me, and now He is In me. The all in all is now nature and all I want is to know Him and to be pleasing to Him by the birthing of His Son in me.

Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death;

In God, In Christ, In the Holy Spirit and They in me: Phillip

hi, david cut a covenant with jonathan and when david was established as king, he remembered this and asked if there was any in the house of saul that he could honor because of this covenant.mephiboseth was injured in his feet(lame)while escaping davids army and grew up being told that david had usurped his authority as the heir to the throne. he was poisened with hate and fear of david and had nothing to do with him.david found mephibosheth hiding in the wilderness and had him brought to the kings table to enjoy the fruit of the covenant david made with jonathan.david did not care about the heirs actions or feelings toward him,but he honored the covenant. Jesus is the covenant maker and the cutter (SHEDDER OF BLOOD)and our advocate (attorney) and He said I will NEVER leave you... He said nothing shall seperate... He said that no man shall pluck you out of my hand...my faith is in what Jesus did on the cross for me giving me zoe life (His life)not in my ability to be perfect(without sin).for more than 40 years i have wept over the fact that He loves me not for who i am but for who He is. jimp

Just wanted to ask a question. Are we speaking of justification, or salvation? They are differing things after all.

What I mean is this
I was saved-justification
I am being saved-sanctification
I shall be saved-glorification

All this talk of losing salvation is really hinged upon who you believe started the work in the first place. I suppose those of the Arminian persuasion think that because they "chose" God, they are saved and must work to maintain that.

Yet Scripture tells us a different thing
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover [b]whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

Notice these words are in the past tense, as if they were done already. Now as one who believes in the Sovereign grace of God, I have no problem whatsoever saying that what He begins, He will finish, and not one person Christ purchased shall be lost, not a one. Thus God is glorified in that He takes the foolish, weak, things and puts His Spirit within and makes them perservere.
Why?
Because anyone genuinely converted is not converted by their choosing God, but rather by God's choosing them in eternity past.

Now if you must worry and fuss over losing or gaining your entry into Heaven, perhaps it has not been granted to you I do not know, but this I do know, I have been saved by a great and mighty Saviour who will raise me up at the last day because He has purchased my soul, and because He has fulfilled the requirements of the Law perfectly on my behalf. His Spirit lives within me producing holiness, and hatred for sin in such ways that I am even amazed at how I think now as it has all been grace.

You can trust the man who died for you, but I guess depending on ones' theological persuasion that is a question as well as Arminians do not believe that Christ did for anyones' sins, but rather as an example of God's hatred for sin, but not to purchase or redeem any from satan, sin, and death. Sorry if any are offneded by the Arminian talk, but Historical Arminianism does not believe that Christ died for anyone, they do not beleive in the substitutionary atonement of Christ for His people.

Many do not know this, so many Arminian pastors will tell people, "Jesus died for your sins" while that is a Calvinist/Biblical view, it is not traditional Arminianism, and because the lines are so blurred, we have a mess of confusion and unstable souls who will never have assurance of their rest in Christ in His great work because they are being hammered by those who are much like the "Judaizers" who say, "you must do thus and such to be a Christian" and if you do not maintain the work you will lose your salvation which brings us back to the idea of Roman Catholicism and works righteousness.

So here is the real question, can a person lose their justification? Can the crimes that were against me that were blotted out the day God's Spirit regenerated me and granted me faith to believe my sinfulness and Christ's greatness, to convict me of sin and bring me to repentance of my sins be brought back up against me?

Can a criminal be tried for the crimes another paid for? or is God unjust in requiring Christ to die for sin, and for the sinner to be punished also?

"What I mean is this
I was saved-justification
I am being saved-sanctification
I shall be saved-glorification"

Conformation;

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Delivered, justified. Doth deliver, sanctification. Will yet deliver, glorification.

Notice this is not a question but a statement of fact.

For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
"What I mean is this
I was saved-justification
I am being saved-sanctification
I shall be saved-glorification"

Conformation;

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Delivered, justified. Doth deliver, sanctification. Will yet deliver, glorification.

Notice this is not a question but a statement of fact.

For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip, my dear one,

I am worried about the Laodiceans, who are so lukewarm about Jesus that He says he will vomit them out of His mouth.

Jesus talks about going back to their first love of Him, their initial belief not withstanding.

[color=993300]Rev. 3: 14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Jesus talks about overcoming, not about initial belief. This is about the straight and narrow path, and walking in it, working with the Holy Spirit, every day until death or the Rapture. Jesus speaks of repentence, not initial belief.

It says nothing about how the Laodiceans will be saved because they once believed. The problem is, they no longer believe enough to repent, or even acknowledge their sins! And hence, Jesus is nauseous at the very idea of them.

I am not talking about works of any kind but what Jesus tells us to do. He wants us to believe on Him, and love Him enough to walk the straight and narrow path with the help of the Holy Spirit. And if we love Him, and fall, He'll even pick us up and carry us for a time.

All of this relates to holiness of the mind and heart, and the consistant striving to get to Jesus. And if you don't keep going toward Him, you are going away from Him. And you can go too far away, just like the Laodiceans.

Yes, we can only repent because of His work in us, stay on the straight and narrow path by His living in us. But if we no longer believe, and will not repent, the original covenent is broken.

Blessings,

Forrest

Christinyou wrote:
Loosing our salvation makes God a looser and not able to keep that which He has birthed as son's.

When we forfit our right to ba called sons of God(John 1:12) we no longer have faith and it is only through faith that we aer saved by grace.

We no longer know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He hast sent(John 17:3)

And to put the burden on a father that has a son the fell away is cruel.
Once the sone goes on his own, he is no longer under his father. As for the man stray from the faith, he is no longer under the Father.

Christinyou wrote
Much more it makes the Cross conditional to man's sin...

Christinyou wrote
the Cross was so important to Him and us who are saved by it.

Christinyou wrote
God won't abort any of His children. Why would a child of God want to walk away from love himself,

Christinyou wrote
Eternal Security is not up to us.

Christinyou wrote
When God planned before the foundation of the world to have son's that are in Christ Jesus, he did not ask if the son's wanted to be born again.

Christinyou wrote
Salvation is up to God not man or He would not have had to kill His only begotten Son to accomplish the act.

Christinyou wrote
God has made sure man cannot do anything to be a son of God.

Christinyou wrote
It is up to Him. All we can do is believe what God has done.

Christinyou wrote
God never makes a mistake

chiefosiners wrote:
Give me one verse in the bible that says we can loose our salvation.

[b]2Peter 3:16[/b] [color=990000]as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
[b]:17[/b] Then beloved, you knowing beforehand, watch lest being led away by the error of the lawless you fall from your own steadfastne[/color]

And

[b]2Peter 2:1[/b] [color=990000]But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and [b]denying the Master who has bought[/b] them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.[/color]

Hello...

I think that a much more appropriate set of questions are:

Can a person who walks with God ever depart the faith?

If a person can depart the faith, what is the end of that person?

:-(

Some individuals believe that it is impossible for a true believer to ever "depart the faith." I believe that it is very much possible and very much a part of the Church. We are each being tempted daily to abandon our faith in Christ. What would happen if we were to give in to temptation and return to a life our vomit -- preferring a life of "vomit" above our relationship with Christ? I know several individuals who have done so. They are living in a sad state of being -- miserable in their sins and miserable at the height from which they have fallen. Most of all, they are miserable about the loss of the relationship that they had with Christ.

Sadly, I also know a couple of individuals who go about boasting of their salvation -- yet are willfully involved in gross fornicative lifestyles. Yet someone had the audacity to tell they that they are still "on their way to heaven." I fear for those individuals concerning their "day in court."

Verses to chew on:

[size=xx-small][b]Hebrews 10:26-30[/b]

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

[b]2 John 1:8-9[/b]

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[b]Romans 11:22-23[/b]

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

[b]I Corinthians 11:11-22[/b]

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?[/size]

If a person comes to Christ, walks with Him for years, even leading others to Him, yet sins -- I feel that God's grace is present to call this man back unto Christ. But what if this person IGNORES the call? What if a person is so entrapped in sin that they literally abandon the faith? What is the end for such a person?

Perhaps we need to distinguish between someone trapped in a sin but hating it while trying to overcome -- and those who willingly choose to live within the temptation?

:-(

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hello...

I think that a much more appropriate set of questions are:

Can a person who walks with God ever depart the faith?

If a person can depart the faith, what is the end of that person?

Say, one gets saved truly and all he has is TBN.
Knowing their doctin, how long will that one stay on the narrow path before he is so far off that he is in the cult of Kenneth Copland.

This seems to fit with the discussion here, enjoy as this is the marrow of what we are getting at.

[i]The bent of the needle

(Thomas Brooks, "London's Lamentations" 1670)

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one
who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:6

A trade, a course of sin--is inconsistent with a state of grace. The best saints have sadly miscarried as to particular actions; but he who shall judge of a man's spiritual state by particular acts, though notorious bad, will certainly condemn, where God acquits. We must always distinguish between some single evil actions, and a serious course of evil actions. It is not this or that particular evil action--but a continued course of evil actions--which denominates a man wicked. Just so, it is not this or that particular holy act--but a continued course of holy actions--which denominates a man holy.

[b]Every man is--as his course is. If his course is holy--the man is holy. If his course is wicked--the man is wicked.

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular good actions--that his spiritual state is good.

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular sinful actions--that his spiritual state is bad.[/b]

A course of sinning is not consistent with a course of godliness. Though the needle of the seaman's compass may jog this way and that way--yet the bent of the needle will still be northward. Just so, though a Christian
may have his particular sinful joggings this way or that way--yet the bent of his heart will still be . . .
God-wards,
Christ-wards,
heaven-wards,
holiness-wards. [/i]

lightwalker wrote:
Can you lose your salvation? Or do you have to walk away? One man's opinion

God's love is a MORAL love and a conditional love. "Relationship love" is NOT unconditional!
Many have taught that the love of God is an "unconditional" love in relationships: That we are to "love" those who have violated us without seeking justice or protection from that violation. "Unconditional love" as currently taught by the church imprisons people in bad marriages.

By: Stephen Gola

By Stephen Gola - Excerpt from the article on Love.
Word Picture:

God is love (1John 4:8), God is moral, God is just, and God does only righteous acts.

Love Himself sits upon a throne of authority.

His throne is positioned upon a foundation built of justice and righteousness.

This is WHO love is! He cannot vary in any way from being just, true and doing what is righteous.

This is WHY God cannot just "let things go—sweep them under the proverbial rug"—it is a legal thing. Because He is love, He is moral. Because He is moral, He is just. Because He is just, He always does righteous acts. Because this is who He is and we are made in His image, He gives us these same moral obligations through His commandments to guide our lives. This is the basis of a great relationship: whether that relationship is between man and man or God and man.

God loves everyone—sinner and saint alike! God who is Love: "demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Even though God is love, He is just, righteous and true. Because He is just, righteous and true, it becomes a legal matter which demands a right response. If we do not respond to God's legal demands of justice we will not be legally "justified by His blood... (and)...saved from wrath..." (Romans 5:9). Therefore, we will endure the punishment of wrath because we have rejected righteousness, justice and truth.

Because God is love, He requires people to love, to be just, moral and true. Those who order their lives in the realm of hate, injustice, immorality with deceptions and lies will reap the penalty (or fruit) thereof. Those who order their lives in the realm of love, justice, morality and truth will reap the blessings (or fruit) thereof. Everybody is treated fairly—you reap exactly what you sow—no more, no less! Living a "holy" life is living out love, justice, righteousness and truth, simultaneously. This is what the Scriptures mean in 1 Peter 1:14-16: Be "as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts (strong pressures of the flesh)...but... be holy for I am holy."

Love without morals is to live under tyranny—which is an abuse of authority.

Love has boundaries, love has morals, and love is conditional!

All Rights Reserved, © Copyright 2006 by Stephen Gola

(All Scriptures taken from the King James Version Bible or the New King James version.)

******ALL TEACHINGS MAY BE USED WITHOUT PERMISSION TO TEACH AND TRAIN GOD'S PEOPLE. PLEASE KEEP THE COPYRIGHT INTACT.******

This is why I can love my ex-husband enough to pray for him, and his current wife, but I could not overlook the continung verbal abuse from his anger over my crippling accident, his subsequent desertion and adultery.

If he had repented while my other kinds of love were still active towards him, I might, and I say might, have been able to continue those types of love, but I would have needed a lot of repentance, change of behavior, and it would take a lot of time to re-establish trust.

God can tell if we mean something in our hearts, and still He asks for obedience as proof of our love. God still wants the fruits of the spirit to be made plain to Him. He doesn't want works, He wants proof of love.

God believed Abraham loved Him, but still God wanted the proof of Him giving up Isaac in full trust in Him to still make Abraham the father of nations through Isaac.

Works are always done for our own sake and pleasure. Obedience is done only to please God, not because it is our first desire. The longer we love God, the more this obedience is ingrained in us, and a habit, which is why God then sends very nasty trials to test if that love is still inviolate, still passionate towards Him. And if we are not loving enough to please Him, He has the Holy Spirit convict us of that lapse, that we might redouble our efforts to love Him on purpose, in agape, phileo, storge, and eros.

Blessings,

Forrest

Christinyou wrote:
Eternal Security is not up to us. Just like a baby being born is not up to the baby. When God planned before the foundation of the world to have son's that are in Christ Jesus, he did not ask if the son's wanted to be born again. His birthing of His only begotten son in Mary was His choice not hers, all she did was agree with God. I think that is enough, if the Holy Spirit appeared to us and said God is going to birth the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ His Son in you all we can do is agree...Before by new birth the Holy Spirit was with me, and now He is In me. The all in all is now nature and all I want is to know Him and to be pleasing to Him by the birthing of His Son in me.

In God, In Christ, In the Holy Spirit and They in me: Phillip

My dear brother, I fully ackowledge our eternal debt to God for sending us Jesus.

But Jesus Himself asks for obedience...as a proof of love, not as works, nor to do works for works sake.

If all we do is fasten our eyes on Christ, and love Him in obedience, that is all we need do.

I am merely saying that some choose not to obey, and literally stop on the path to glory, turn around, refuse to obey for a long enough time that God want's a divorce, not because He does not love us, but because that person did not love Him back, nor show it in any way.

[color=993300] Phillipians 2:5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15. That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 Peter 1: 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[/color]

Our salvation is a forever done thing if, and only if, we believe, and keep on believing.

In the scriptures it allows for our perpetual safety only if we set out faces like flint toward the Lord, and act on it.

The Once Saved, Always Saved position says we do not have to do anything past our initial committment, and indeed, are covered against all that we do in our body, mind and spirit.

I say that if our body does one thing, out of it's sin nature, while our mind, heart, soul and spirit still reach out for God, we are saved forever.

I also say if we stop reaching out for God, our mind, heart, soul and spirit will stop on the path to holiness, turn around, and join the body again, going back to death away from the Life of Jesus.

The Once Saved, Always Saved position promotes a belief that our soul is forever safe, even if we turn around, and walk away from Christ to the point where God can no longer handle it, and turns us over to our desires and our self, instead of His Self and His Desires. And this is why I am against this position being taught.

Blessings,

Forrest

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hello...

I think that a much more appropriate set of questions are:

Can a person who walks with God ever depart the faith?

If a person can depart the faith, what is the end of that person?

:-(

Some individuals believe that it is impossible for a true believer to ever "depart the faith." I believe that it is very much possible and very much a part of the Church. We are each being tempted daily to abandon our faith in Christ. What would happen if we were to give in to temptation and return to a life our vomit -- preferring a life of "vomit" above our relationship with Christ? I know several individuals who have done so. They are living in a sad state of being -- miserable in their sins and miserable at the height from which they have fallen. Most of all, they are miserable about the loss of the relationship that they had with Christ.

Sadly, I also know a couple of individuals who go about boasting of their salvation -- yet are willfully involved in gross fornicative lifestyles. Yet someone had the audacity to tell they that they are still "on their way to heaven." I fear for those individuals concerning their "day in court."....I think that the key to this topic is found in I Corinthians 11:12-13. When you are faced with temptation, what do you do? Do you resist it? Do you give in the the "escape" that the Lord provides? Or do you give up all resistance and partake into the lifestyle -- forsaking all that you hold dear from Christ? I know individuals who believe that it is possible to live a life of sin while still walking with Christ. We cannot hold both cups! While we will always be confined to a sinful body, we do not give in completely to our sinful nature. Those who do -- loving this present world OVER the life of Christ enough to have forsaken all that they have gained -- are in danger of "falling away."

If a person comes to Christ, walks with Him for years, even leading others to Him, yet sins -- I feel that God's grace is present to call this man back unto Christ. But what if this person IGNORES the call? What if a person is so entrapped in sin that they literally abandon the faith? What is the end for such a person?

Perhaps we need to distinguish between someone trapped in a sin but hating it while trying to overcome -- and those who willingly choose to live within the temptation?

:-(

Now you know why I worry, not for myself, nor for those on SI, who are so plainly ever-seeking, but those babes in Christ that are taught wrongly, and believe they are still safe if they desert God.

Blessings,

Forrest

GrannieAnnie wrote:
I love when this topic comes up and turns into a meeting of two minds.

I don't believe in UNconditional eternal security, as it's taught by some ... but the neat thing is that ... "the elect" will not lose their Salvation.

This is neat ~ Who are the elect ?

Those who GOD Foreknew from before the beginning - so to speak - that wouldn't 'fall away'.

He knows those which are His and who will "endure unto the end."

Whenever you see Him speak of the Elect in The Word - you find them "not being deceived" and in the verses where that title for them is mentioned, they are nothing but 'overcomers'.

There are tons of verses, like the parables of the sower and ground types and so on, that tell of those who make a profession of faith but as Charles Stanley said yesterday .... even believing in Christ, etc. does not make one "saved".

If you look in the N.T. Concordance under verses with "if you" alone, there are many-many "if's".

Our only difference in these two ways of thinking is that those who hold to OSAS say - that if a person has no sign of fruit or holiness
"they were never saved in the first place" and us others say .... they presently cannot be saved by their lifestyles ... but that's where we can agree .... that they "presently" are not saved.

Why argue if both argree on that ?....Most all of our Classic Authors we love so much believed Reformed Theology or Calvinism and I love those Authors best, but with that one point - God's foreknowledge of who the Elect are. He Knows those that are His - those who will remain faithful even unto the end.

Oooohhhh, GO Grannie GO!!!!

Blessings,

Forrest

roaringlamb wrote:
This seems to fit with the discussion here, enjoy as this is the marrow of what we are getting at.

[i]The bent of the needle

(Thomas Brooks, "London's Lamentations" 1670)

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one
who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:6

A trade, a course of sin--is inconsistent with a state of grace. The best saints have sadly miscarried as to particular actions; but he who shall judge of a man's spiritual state by particular acts, though notorious bad, will certainly condemn, where God acquits. We must always distinguish between some single evil actions, and a serious course of evil actions. It is not this or that particular evil action--but a continued course of evil actions--which denominates a man wicked. Just so, it is not this or that particular holy act--but a continued course of holy actions--which denominates a man holy.

[b]Every man is--as his course is. If his course is holy--the man is holy. If his course is wicked--the man is wicked.

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular good actions--that his spiritual state is good.

No man ought to conclude, because of some particular sinful actions--that his spiritual state is bad.[/b]

A course of sinning is not consistent with a course of godliness. Though the needle of the seaman's compass may jog this way and that way--yet the bent of the needle will still be northward. Just so, though a Christian
may have his particular sinful joggings this way or that way--yet the bent of his heart will still be . . .
God-wards,
Christ-wards,
heaven-wards,
holiness-wards. [/i]

Oooooh, GO PATRICK!!!!

And to think I had you confused with a lady for a while, without checking. For some reason confused you with someone else - but blame my memory, please, not my heart. The heart works fine, even though the short term memory just won't put everything into longterm! My programming is good now, but my hardware needs Glorification!

Let it come soon!

Blessings,

Forrest

GrannieAnnie wrote:
I love when this topic comes up and turns into a meeting of two minds.

I don't believe in UNconditional eternal security, as it's taught by some ... but the neat thing is that ... "the elect" will not lose their Salvation.

This is neat ~ Who are the elect ?

Those who GOD Foreknew from before the beginning - so to speak - that wouldn't 'fall away'.

He knows those which are His and who will "endure unto the end."

God does know who overcomes...He is all knowing, and He stands outside our timeline, knowing the end from the beginning.

But WE do not know, and dare not assume too much.

I know I speak with the Holy Spirit, or hear Jesus because what is said matches with the Bible. I also know enough to check what I hear against the Bible, and to watch for the Evil One, who would so much like to fool me. And he's good at it. I still fall into His traps for bits of time. I am in fear lest it lead me the wrong way. I do not fear that Jesus doesn't guard me...He keeps allowing me in His permissive will to fall into these little traps from time to time to perfect me. Then He convicts me through the Holy Spirit, I get back up on the path, and WE keep on going.

The Devil, however, is really good at twisting things, just a little, like this Once Saved, Always Saved idea.

Very sneaky of Lucifer. He tricks the unwary into delight in sin.

Yes, there are many who are wary, and there are many who are babes in Christ, and need careful teaching, lest they stray from the path while they know nothing.

And babes are forever perfected in Jesus...they don't know enough to stray, and Jesus' holiness is in them, shining brightly, and the Holy Spirit is in them, working.

I just don't want any of them taught that they can do bad stuff, and it's still okay, because Jesus loves us.

He does, and He hangs on a long, long time, far longer than one would think. But I don't want anyone taking chances.

Guarding your salvation faith with obedience is rather more to the point.

Blessings,

Forrest

Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? Who's sound wisdom Logic?

Is this the word of God? 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Did you really have a choice to be born? Did your parents ask you for your permission?
Did God ask your permission to rebirth you? All He ask is that you believe it. Then He did it.
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on His name:

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"Not my will but yours", God.

Did not even Jesus learn obedience by this saying?

Jhn 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?

Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Finally: Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Who's work is it. Not ours, if you believe scripture. We are kept by the power of God that is in us, the is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is the word "Kept": Strong's Greek Dictionary
5432. phroureo
Search for G5432 in KJVSL
jrourew phroureo froo-reh'-o
from a compound of 4253 and 3708; to be a watcher in advance, i.e. to mount guard as a sentinel (post spies at gates); figuratively, to hem in, protect:--keep (with a garrison). Compare 5083.

The same as Job, the only way anything can come against us is by the permission of God to bring us to complete obedience and trust and rest and peace in Christ Jesus. Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

To obey Him we must be His, Spirit=Christ in you, Soul=The Holy Spirit teacher, body, dead or alive, exchanged for a spiritual body Like Jesus Christ by God the Father who raises the dead and changes the living.

In Christ: Phillip

chiefosiners wrote:

Me:
What, don't my reasoning in the scripture persuade you? Or do you not hold to sound wisdom.

Are you trying to tell me that your wise? Why do you think you have to persuade me? Gal.1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God?

I'll tell you this, you sir are a heretic.

I don't "have to persuade" you.

All I was asking was, didn't the things that were posed make sense. Weren't they logical? In what way did they not show that one could be deceived and fall away?

You asked a question that surprised me, I responded in wonder that, in light of the things posted, did not prove to you enough that you needed one more verse in the bible that says we can loose our salvation.

You have not even proved that one can [b]not[/b] be deceived and fall away.

Further more, you call me a heretic for wanting to persuade you, would you call the Apostle Paul a heretic also for doing so?
[b]Act 17:2[/b] [color=993300]And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days, [b]reasoned with them out of the scriptures[/b][/color]
[b]Act 18: 4[/b] [color=993300]And [b]he reasoned[/b] in the synagogue every sabbath, [b]and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks[/b].[/color]
[b]Act 18:19[/b] [color=993300]And he came to Ephesus, and he left those there. But he going into the synagogue, [b]he reasoned with the Jews[/b].[/color]
[b]Act 19:8[/b] [color=993300]And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, having [b]reasoned with them, and persuading[/b] concerning the things of the kingdom of God.[/color]
[b]Act 28:23[/b] [color=993300]And having appointed him a day, more came to him in the lodging, to whom he expounded, earnestly testifying the kingdom of God [b]and persuading them[/b] the things concerning Jesus, both from the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning until evening.[/color]

I could call you a heretic also for denying the plane truth that I presented along with the Scriptures that clearly show men denying the Master who has bought them.
Isn't it true that whosoever shall deny Jesus(the Master) before men, him will He also deny before His Father which is in heaven.Mat 10:33

hi sin is what separates God and man... the first sin... if you gripe about any situation,such as traffic, health, brother moneygrubber, brother baddoctrine,being homeless, hungry,taxes you are in sin... whatsoever is not of faith is sin. the jews griped in the wilderness and did not enter because of their unbelief. if you call a brother a fool,heretic,etc you are saying that you do not approve of how God is working with this person and you are better.pride shall we continue or shall we rest in the finished work of the cross. jimp why do we keep eating of the same tree adam ate of? eat of the tree of life... Jesus

GrannieAnnie wrote:
HI Forrest and Katy-Did,

Right on. We are secure "as we abide in Him".

The misuse of the name "Elect" is the 'abuse' of the verses that speak of the security of the Elect.

The Elect are again, those who God, through Foreknowledge knows, will be faithful unto the end.

They will endure and by their desire to press on and love Him by pleasing Him only, that will set them apart as those who loved not their lives to the death - Etc.

The abuse of the OSAS belief is what has caused many that I've seen where I live to live self-centered lives instead of Christocentric.

Thank you for both of your posts. I enjoyed them.

Phil 3:7-14

Thank you. I am so relieved that there are others that see my point, not that the elect are not perfect in Christ, but that WE don't know if WE are the elect, and must keep believing, and acting in belief; loving God and one another, until the last day, ever pressing on in holiness of mind and heart and spirit.

Our sin nature is always a burden to us, and can pull us temporarily off the path, but as long as we keep our eyes on Jesus, and walk in the Holy Spirit, we will overcome, and find, that after all is said and done, that we are the 'Elect' of God.

It hurts to see new Christians led astray into thinking that their salvation is secure if they do nothing but what they have always done, and continue delighting in sin, when every mature Christian knows that we must walk out our faith in fear and trembling, always hopeful, always counting on the grace promised us, but not counting on ourselves to stay in righteousness in the heart, mind and spirit without a little effort!

But I will not know I am of the Elect until that final day, and I will not presume to think so, so I'm going to press on, and overcome, with Jesus' help.

Blessings,

Forrest

Is this not assurance of election?

1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Who are the Elect?

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Ti 5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Tts 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Christ the chief corner stone, elect, precious, He is the first Elect and being Elect making us elect by the birthing of Jesus Christ in us from our born again experience and regeneration to the Mind of Christ and His Life in us. That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

Katy-did wrote:
Hi GrannyAnnie: The Gospel that so many miss in scripture is that we are called to the fellowship of His sufferings. It seems those who are anchored in "these" truths are the ones that know it takes that fellowship to be conformed in the first place. Once we are resolved to this truth, knowing our life now belongs to the Lord, we don't fight it. We know we are no longer a part of this world system, and what the world has to offer...The fact is, when one TOTALLY SURRENDERS their life to the Lord, they have given it completely over to the Lord. It belongs to Him now. What we lose in this world, we have a million times over in the Riches that are in Christ Jesus.
God Bless! With Love in Christ
Katy-Did! :-)

Oh, Katy,

How much I wish that this were the case.

Yet Paul in Hebrews 6 speaks specifically to this:[color=993300]Hebrews 6

1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permit.
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/color]

Paul is stating that if one falls away, and by falling away, it is not the mere habits of the dead body that is still a part of us that is a falling away, but a going away from Christ. And to ask Christ to forgive it again is to crucify Him again.

Judas Iscariot was a true follower of Jesus, and it was only at the end that he fell away. His lust for money, and whatever disappointments he had in Jesus for not being the King in Glory Messiah, were overwhelmed by the knowledge of his injustice to Christ. Judas killed himself rather than risk asking Jesus for forgiveness for helping to put Him on that cross.

Would Jesus have forgiven the man whom Satan entered into? He was only a tool of the devil's after all. I cannot believe that Jesus would, for He said, [color=99300]Matt.26:24. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.[/color]

Once Saved, Always Saved says that no matter what we do, Jesus will always take us back, no matter how far we stray.

Under this theory, one could take the mark of the Beast during the tribulation in sincere belief that one would be forgiven.

But as Hebrews shows, there is a point of no return, where if Jesus were to forgive such a betrayal, that He would have to suffer the crucifiction again.

I know that Jesus bends over backwards to keep us saved, because I have tested Him very far, yet in a way, I never entirely let go of Jesus' hand, nor He of mine, even when I was doing my worst sinning.

I sinned in ignorance, in foolishness, in fear, and because the devil tricked me well. And to a point, I enjoyed my sins. Who hasn't?

But I didn't knowingly or unknowingly turn my back on Jesus and walk away, diving into a life of sin, and deliberately and lasciviously luxuriate in sin, and teach it to others.

And there are those that were in the Church that have turned their back on Jesus, and have taught the Devil's lies, and Jesus will not take them back.

And to tell a babe in Christ that he is always safe, no matter what he does, is only going to encourage this kind of behavior.

How many souls have you told that all will be well, that are dancing with the devil, and can never come back? Will they blame you for false teaching? Will Christ?

I will not take that risk as a teacher, nor will I encourage anyone to believe that there is NOT a point for every person when Christ will become so sickened at their behavior that they are vomited out of the Church Corporate.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a lie.

The burden of teaching it be on the heads that do so.

In Christ,

Forrest

Judas Iscariot was a true follower of Jesus, and it was only at the end that he fell away.

Dear Forrest you have much insight into spiritual things and I am blessed by many things you have posted but I must ask you where in the Bible does it say Judas was a true follower of Christ?

We read these words of Christ
John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: [b]and ye are clean, but not all.
John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.[/b]

If we suppose Christ is speaking of regenration i.e. washing of the whole as the Greek word used for the first "wash" would indicate, Jesus is making the point that not all of them were. Thus we could conclude that Judas was not a true follower of Christ.

And again
John 13:18 [b]I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen:[/b] but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Notice Christ differentiates between His chosen, and the betrayer that would fulfill prophecy.

Here's another
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil

Of course we must assume that "chosen" here does not mean "unto salvation" as a devil cannot be saved. Yet Christ states clearly that Judas was out to do the deeds of the devil. Judas may have been a false professor, but never a true follower.

roaringlamb wrote:

Judas Iscariot was a true follower of Jesus, and it was only at the end that he fell away.

Dear Forrest you have much insight into spiritual things and I am blessed by many things you have posted but I must ask you where in the Bible does it say Judas was a true follower of Christ?

We read these words of Christ
John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: [b]and ye are clean, but not all.
John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.[/b]

Patrick, you got me! I used a bad example to present a truly good point.

I don't usually study Judas, as he is so obviously damned.

I'll rewrite the post.

Thank you for pointing this out!!!

Blessings,

Forrest

Katy-did wrote:
Hi GrannyAnnie: The Gospel that so many miss in scripture is that we are called to the fellowship of His sufferings. It seems those who are anchored in "these" truths are the ones that know it takes that fellowship to be conformed in the first place. Once we are resolved to this truth, knowing our life now belongs to the Lord, we don't fight it. We know we are no longer a part of this world system, and what the world has to offer...The fact is, when one TOTALLY SURRENDERS their life to the Lord, they have given it completely over to the Lord. It belongs to Him now. What we lose in this world, we have a million times over in the Riches that are in Christ Jesus.
God Bless! With Love in Christ
Katy-Did! :-)

Oh, Katy,

How much I wish that this were the case.

Yet Paul in Hebrews 6 speaks specifically to this:[color=993300]Hebrews 6

1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permit.
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/color]

Paul is stating that if one falls away, and by falling away, it is not the mere habits of the dead body that is still a part of us that is a falling away, but a going away from Christ. And to ask Christ to forgive it again is to crucify Him again.

[color=993300]Luke 9:57. And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58. And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
59. And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
61. And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
62. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.[/color]

Once Saved, Always Saved says that no matter what we do, Jesus will always take us back, no matter how far we stray.

Under this theory, one could take the mark of the Beast during the tribulation in sincere belief that one would be forgiven.

But as Hebrews shows, there is a point of no return, where if Jesus were to forgive such a betrayal, that He would have to suffer the crucifiction again.

I know that Jesus bends over backwards to keep us saved, because I have tested Him very far, yet in a way, I never entirely let go of Jesus' hand, nor He of mine, even when I was doing my worst sinning.

I sinned in ignorance, in foolishness, in fear, and because the devil tricked me well. And to a point, I enjoyed my sins. Who hasn't?

But I didn't knowingly or unknowingly turn my back on Jesus and walk away, diving into a life of sin, and deliberately and lasciviously luxuriate in sin, and teach it to others.

And there are those that were in the Church that have turned their back on Jesus, and have taught the Devil's lies, and Jesus will not take them back.

And to tell a babe in Christ that he is always safe, no matter what he does, is only going to encourage this kind of behavior.

How many souls have you told that all will be well, that are dancing with the devil, and can never come back? Will they blame you for false teaching? Will Christ?

I will not take that risk as a teacher, nor will I encourage anyone to believe that there is NOT a point for every person when Christ will become so sickened at their behavior that they are vomited out of the Church Corporate.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a lie.

The burden of teaching it be on the heads that do so.

In Christ,

Forrest

hi, there is no OSAS doctrine;it is the eternal security of the believer.It is called osas in ignorance.anyone who says that this doctrine says that you can live any way you want is also in error. what happens is your sins will find you out... if you are dead to this world and alive in Christ you still pay for the sins done in the flesh...in the flesh. i have seen this so often where a christian who is living a good life makes some bad choices(sin)and days later they are jobless,in jail,homeless,lose their family,you name it i have seen the results of sin and sometimes death.still His grace is new every morning.jimp

Hi Katy!

As you requested:

[color=993300]Hebrews 7:15. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16. Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21. (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22. By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24. But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27. Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.[/color]

Christ is indeed OUR surety...He will never leave us, so long as we believe on Him. It is a conditional committment. We have to trust in Him. And we have to show it, by yielding to the Holy Spirit's teaching, and in due time, show fruit of that teaching.

But WE can leave Him.

WE can stop believing, stop walking the walk, turn in our tracks, go back down the narrow path, out the strait gate, and play slip and slide with all the others going to hell on the broad and easy way.

And telling a new believer that once he has believed on Jesus, he can never lose Jesus is perfectly true. Jesus will stick to us closer than a brother, but He's not going to drag us kicking and screaming the entire way to His father's throne.

That would invalidate our free will to say yes or no to the offer God makes us in Jesus.

Yes, like any adult with a baby, He's going to keep nudging us back on the the narrow path as we wander off of it, coax us along with favors and blessings, then as we grow in Him, He will begin to train us up in the way we should go. Trials will begin to come, to test the validity of our committment. And I'm sure you have noticed, the further you are along on the path, the more you get tested, because Jesus wants His Bride as perfect as possible when they enter their Glorified bodies.

But not everyone passes the trials. Some do look back, and go back, and the ones that do most easily are those that are assured that Jesus will love them no matter what!

Well, He will. But He'll love them all the way into Hell, sorrowing for the necessity of judgement, because someone, with good intentions, told them, Once Saved, Always Saved!

But we have to warn people not to betray Jesus.

How many of the people in America's churches believe the Once Saved, Always Saved Doctrine, and have Lucifer sitting in the front row, clapping and singing, and laughing at our gullibility?!!!

As I said in a post on another thread about divorce, God has divorced two nations already for faithlessness, Ephaim and Judah, and BETROTHED a third group, the Christian Church, by salvation through faith. But you know, we're not glorified yet, and we're not married yet, and God can still put us away, divorce us, for unfaithfulness.

God was perfectly willing to toss the entire 12 Tribes of Israel out, and start over again in the Mosaic Covenant with Moses, simply because God couldn't stand their whining, complaining, and ultimately, their treachery. And they only had to obey the outer Laws. They could sin all day long in their hearts and minds, and if they kept the Law, by making the proper offerings for any failures, would be considered righteous.

The above surety in Christ as our one time Passover Lamb satisfies the Law forever, and gives us OUR surety in Him as our Priest and Husband forever.

But it does so conditionally. We have to believe on Him, and act like we do!

It doesn't give us our surety in Him except by faith, to enter into the covenant, and even then, Jesus requires two things of us. We are to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, and our brothers as ourselves.

That is our walk. That is the fruit Christ wants in return for His surety of our souls. He's done His part, now He wants us to do ours.

The New Covenant is a Blood Covenant, but a covenant is a contract, and can be broken.

[color=0000FF]Elwells Theological Dictionary
Topics: Covenant.

Text: A compact or agreement between two parties binding them mutually to undertakings on each other's behalf. Theologically (used of relations between God and man) it denotes a gracious undertaking entered into by God for the benefit and blessing of man, and specifically of those men who by faith receive the promises and commit themselves to the obligations which this undertakes involves.

In the OT. *txUniformly the word used to express the covenant concept is the Hebrew berit. The original meaning of this word was probably "fetter" or "obligation," coming from a root bara, "to bind." This root does not occur as a verb in Hebrew, but it does occur in Akkadian as baru, "to bind," and appears as a noun in the Akkadian biritu, which means "bond" or "fetter." Thus a berit would originally signify a relationship between two parties wherein each bound himself to perform a certain service or duty for the other. But some scholars prefer to derive this noun from the verb bara "to eat," which occurs in II Sam. 13:6; 12:17; etc., and thus interpret it as "a meal" or "food," with reference to the sacrificial meal which the contracting parties often ate together when ratifying their agreement before the diety who was invoked as protector and guarantor of the covenant. Still others trace it from a bara meaning "to perceive" or "to determine"; hence berit would involve the basic idea of "vision.
" But neither of these explanations commends itself as being so fitting or appropriate to the basic character of a covenant as the idea of "bond" preferred by the majority of scholars.

A general characteristic of the OT berit is its unalterable and permanently binding character. The parties to a covenant obligated themselves to carry out their respective commitments under the penalty of divine retribution should they later attempt to avoid them. Usually, although not necessarily, the promise of each was supported by some sort of legal consideration or quid pro quo. But where the one party to the agreement was greatly superior to the other in power or authority, the situation was a bit different: the ruler or man of authority would in the enactment of the berit simply announce his governmental decree or constitution which he thought best to impose upon those under him, and they for their part expressed their acceptance and readiness to conform to what he had ordained. Doubtless it was true even in this type of covenant that the ruler implicitly committed himself to rule for the best interests of his people and to contrive for their protection against their foes.

But in the case of the promulgation of a covenant by God with his chosen people, this one-sided aspect of the transaction was even more apparent, since the contracting parties stood upon entirely different levels. In this case the covenant constituted a divine announcement of God's holy will to extend the benefits of his unmerited grace to men who were willing by faith to receive them, and who by entering into a personal commitment to God bound themselves to him by ties of absolute obligation. The characteristic statement of this relationship occurs in the formula "I will be their God and they shall be my people" (cf. Jer. 11:4; 24:7; 30:22; 32:38; Ezek. 11:20; 14:11; 36:28; 37:23; Zech. 8:8; etc.). This signifies that God unreservedly gives himself to his people and that they in turn give themselves to him and belong to him. Thus they are his "peculiar treasure" (segulla, Exod. 19:5; Deut. 7:6; 14:2; 26:18; Ps. 135:4; Mal. 3:17).
His motive in adopting them as his own covenant children is stated to be "lovingkindness" or "covenant-love" (hesed), a term with which berit is often associated (cf. Deut. 7:9; I Kings 8:23; Dan. 9:4). (Compare also I Sam. 20:8, where Jonathan is said to exercise hesed when he enters into his covenant relationship with David.) This presents a remarkable contrast to the motivation attributed by the heathen Semites to their gods, who were uniformly depicted as entering into covenant relations with their devotees for the purpose of extracting service and nourishment from their altars, more or less like the feudal lords of human society who extract their support from the labor of their vassals.

One very important element in God's covenant relations with Israel lay in the dual aspect of conditionality and unconditionality. Were his solemn promises, which partook of the nature of a binding oath (cf. Deut. 7:8), to be understood as capable of nonfulfillment, in case of the failure of man to live up to his obligations toward God? Or was there a sense in which God's covenant undertakings were absolutely sure of fulfillment, regardless of the unfaithfulness of man? The answer to this much-debated question seems to be: (1) that the promises made by Jehovah in the covenant of grace represent decrees which he will surely bring to pass, when conditions are ripe for their fulfillment; (2) that the personal benefit, and especially the spiritual and eternal benefit, of the divine promise will accrue only to those individuals of the covenant people of God who manifest a true and living faith (demonstrated by a godly life).
Thus the first aspect is brought out by the initial form of the covenant with Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3; there is no shadow of doubt but what God will truly make of Abram a great nation, and make his name great, and shall bless all the nations of earth through him and his posterity (cf. Gal. 3:8). This is set forth as God's plan from the very beginning; nothing shall frustrate it. On the other hand, the individual children of Abraham are to receive personal benefit only as they manifest the faith and obedience of Abraham; thus Exod. 19:5 ("Now therefore if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me....And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation"). In other words, God will see to it that his plan of redemption will be carried out in history, but he will also see to it that none partake of the eternal benefits of the covenant in violation of the demands of holiness.
No child of the covenant who presents to him a faithless and insincere heart shall be included in its blessings.

This triumphantly enduring quality of the covenant of grace is especially set forth by the prophets in the form of the "new covenant." In the classic passage on this theme (Jer. 31:31-37) the earliest phase of the covenant (that was effected at Sinai) is shown to have been temporary and provisional because of the flagrant violation of it by the Israelite nation as a whole, and because of their failure to know or acknowledge God as their personal Lord and Savior. But there is a time coming, says Jehovah, when he will put his holy law into their very hearts, so that their cordial inclination and desire will be to live according to his holy standard. Moreover he shall beget within them a sense of sonship toward himself, so that they shall have a personal knowledge and love of him that will not require artificial human teaching. Furthermore the carrying out of this redeeming purpose is stated to be as sure as the continued existence of sun, moon, and stars, or even of the foundations of heaven itself.

In the NT. The term for covenant employed in the NT is diatheke, the word used constantly in the LXX for berit. Since the ordinary Greek word for "contract" or "compact" (syntheke) implied equality on the part of the contracting parties, the Greek-speaking Jews preferred diatheke (coming from diatithemai, "to make a disposition of one's own property") in the sense of a unilateral enactment. In secular Greek this word usually meant "will" or "testament," but even classical authors like Aristophanes (Birds 439) occasionally used it of a covenant wherein one of the two parties had an overwhelming superiority over the other and could dictate his own terms. Hence the biblical diatheke signified (in a way much more specific than did berit) an arrangement made by one party with plenary power, which the other party may accept or reject but cannot alter. Johannes Behm (TDNT, II, 137) defines it as "the decree (Verfuegung) of God,
the powerful disclosure of the sovereign will of God in history whereby he constitutes the relationship, the authoritative divine ordinance (institution), which introduces a corresponding order of affairs." There is just one passage in which the more usual secular significance of "will" or "testament" appears along with the covenantal idea: Heb. 9:15-17. A legal analogy is drawn from the fact that a testator must die before his will can take effect; so also in the enactment of the Mosaic covenant there was slain a sacrificial animal, representing the atonement of Christ, and it was the blood of that victim which was sprinkled upon the people and the covenantal document itself. But even here the predominant notion in diatheke is "covenant" rather than "testament." G. L. ARCHER, JR.

See also COVENANT, THE NEW.

Bibliography. G. R. Berry, ISBE, II, 727-29; A. B. Davidson, The Theology of the OT; G. E. Mendenhall, Law and Covenant in Israel and the Ancient Near East; G. Oehler, Theology of the OT; W. Oesterly and T. H. Robinson, Hebrew Religion; G. Vos, Biblical Theology; J. Behm and G. Quell, TDNT,II, 106ff.; G. Gurt, NIDNTT, I,365ff.; W. Eichrodt, Theology of the OT, 2 vols.; D. J. McCarthy, OT Covenant; K. Baltzer, The Covenant Formulary; D. R. Hillers, Covenant: History of a Biblical Idea; M. G. Kline, Treaty of the Great King. [/color]

The above passage in Hebrews 7:15-28 merely states that Christ will never be the one to
break that blood covenant.

It is always we who can do that. Sure, we pay the price of damnation for it, but we don't have to stay betrothed to Christ, walk the walk, and produce fruit in patience, kindness, joy, humility, and love. We can change our minds, or be tricked into doing so by the devil who perverts our teaching!

I do not want any newborn in Christ ever told that Christ will leave him.

I do want every newborn, toddler, youngster, adolescent and adult Christian taught frequently that they must walk forward, as a toddler toward his Daddy. They can pause on the path. I daresay they can literally sit down on the path, facing the throne of God in the distance, playing patty cakes with the dirt on the path, go no further than their first step to Christ, and Christ will honor them as they deserve...as babies. Saved, but just barely.

But having seen the Holy Spirit working in my newly saved Dad, no one really does stay completely still on the path. My Dad may never listen to a sermon, or read the Bible, but the Holy Spirit is in Him, and it shows. But I will never tell my Dad that he can sin and go on sinning, and still be saved, no matter what he does, because it is a lie. A lie of the Devil.

I have no objection at all to telling those newborns in Christ that they are going to break every law ever made, in their heart, and in their body, and Christ will not care, so long as they repent of it, and go forward on their walk, trying to get a little better at their walk in Christ every day of their life. I've seen my Dad do that with no other teaching than that of the Holy Spirit.

But we have a sin nature still attached to our newly made heart, and it will sin whether we want it to or not. But if we stop repenting, and join in with the sin nature, and start reveling in it, and then worse, teach it to others as being just fine with Jesus, as we see is being done in our churches today, the result is going to be very different.

The WHOLE truth must be taught to the newly born in Christ.

If anyone teaches a child he can get away with complete and total disobedience all their lives, flaunting their breaking of the covenent in Jesus's face, and still be saved, I tremble at the fate of the child, and the one who told them that foolish thing.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a doctrine of the devil, ment to lull people into disobedience.

Once Saved, Always saved is a lie of the devil, and should be seen as such, not fought as if I am trying to take people's salvation from them.

I want people to be saved, and stay saved, not just because Jesus loves them. Jesus loves everyone. It's His nature, because He is God.

But those that love Him back are those that will be in the kingdom, no matter how slight their obedience, no matter how mixed up their walk, no matter how limited their love, as long as they are headed toward Jesus.

It is the child of God who must be wary against the wiles of the devil, and the drag of that always sinning dead body that we lug around everywhere.

So I repeat, on the head of those that teach this false doctrine made up by the devil to be snare for the feet of the unwary, be the result of their teachings.

And yes, those that have taught this in error need only repent, and they will be forgiven. But they need to contact all they have ever taught the doctrine to, and say, Oh, by the way, that Once Saved, Always Saved business...it only works if you keep believing in God, and prove it with your obedience, because obedience is the only way to prove our love to God.

Blessings,

Forrest

jimp wrote:
hi, there is no OSAS doctrine;

Oh, Jimp I wish this were true in the sense that no such teaching was ever taught to anyone. No, there is no doctrine that says Once Saved, Always Saved, but despite that fact, there are a lot of people who teach it, have been teaching it, and we are seeing the result in the churches even as we speak.

it is the eternal security of the believer.It is called osas in ignorance.anyone who says that this doctrine says that you can live any way you want is also in error.

Oh, indeed, I agree! But again, the error is taught consistantly, people believe it, go back to their dead bodies, put them back on, and think they are going to be just fine come Judgement Day.

what happens is your sins will find you out... if you are dead to this world and alive in Christ you still pay for the sins done in the flesh...in the flesh. i have seen this so often where a christian who is living a good life makes some bad choices(sin)and days later they are jobless,in jail,homeless,lose their family,you name it i have seen the results of sin and sometimes death.

This has happened in my live as well. I did a lot of sinning, and even though I kept coming back to Jesus, and He kept forgiving me, and giving me a fresh start spiritually, my life was forever changed by everything that I did that was wrong, and some of it is irrevocable.

I sorrow for the sins, and for the result they brought me, but the result is just. And I am saved, and closer to Jesus than ever before. But my life will never be the same, and frankly, it is a good reminder, as well as a testimony to what we can do to ourselves when we turn away from Jesus.

still His grace is new every morning.jimp

Yes, and for all of us, without that, we would never be able to go on.

But because Once Saved, Always Saved is taught as a Doctrine, (Although it should be called Lucifer's Doctrine), people are being led astray. But it is not because Jesus will leave us, nor even let us go due to the sins of the old man that we drag around with us. That is why I am still saved, like many another.

But we can leave Jesus, although it takes the devil a lot of hard work and desception to pull it off, and you have to turn around and walk away from Jesus. Alas, you can see by one look at our churches that Lucifer's been using this one a lot.

Blessings,

Forrest

Would this Scripture not also fall into the this same context that OSAS is untrue?

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Hebrews 10:26-31 (NIV)

*edited*

Tell me, if you get of into some bad doctrine that messes with the Godhead and the way of salvation, is there still security?

Do you know the subtelty of false apostles, deceitful workers who transform themselves into the apostles of Christ to mislead by a falsly by appearing to be of church sheapards; they preach that which twist God's Word so very subtly. Don't marvel, because Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.(2Corinth 11:13-14)

Such people are not servants of the Lord Christ but to their own empty cavity that is in there chest. By smooth speaking and flattering words they deceive the hearts of those of the innocent.(Rom 16:18)
And by fraudulency, with false doctrines, they will use the church for gain.(2Peter 2:3)

I fear lest by any means, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so the minds should be corrupted from the purity which is in Christ.(2Corinth 11:3-4)

I wonder that the Church can be so quickly turned back from Christ who called them by the grace of Christ to another gospel which is not even the same one as the Bible preasents, These false prophets in the Church to day are determined to pervert the gospel of Christ.(Gal 1:7)

I desire zealously Christs body with a fervent mind of God(2Corinth 11:2).
It was because of those false prophets sneaking in in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, so that they should enslave those in the church.(Gal 2:4)

I pray that we watch those causing divisions and putting stumbling blocks contrary to the doctrine which was first taught from the Apostles.(Rom 16:17)

You sat that they cant be cut off from Christ?

As the branch cannot bear fruit from itself, except it abide in the vine; niether can you, except if you abide in Christ also. The one abiding in Christ, and He in him, is one bears much fruit, because apart from Christ you are not able to do anything. Unless one remains in Christ, he is cast out as the branch and is dried up; and they gather and throw them into a fire, and they are burned. If you remain in Christ, He will listent to and answer.(John 15:4-7)

However, some of ypou say that one can not be cut out and forfeit eternal life, of which in reality, eternal life is actualy knowing Christ(John 17:3)

Don't you know that they are broken off by unfaithfulness, which is in contrast to you that stand by faithfulness. Don't be arrogant, but you'd better fear also.(Rom 11:20)
You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and tremble.(James 2:19)
And those demons believed in the preasence of Christ, how much more could one of us fall.

Jesus even said, "those false Christs, and false prophets shall deceive the very elect."(Mark 13:22)
The Elect?!

You must know that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins with us, what shall the end be of them that continue to obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous are saved with much effort, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Therefore, let them that suffer according to the will of God must be committing the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.(1Peter 4:17-19)

Jesus even said, "those false Christs, and false prophets shall deceive the very elect."(Mark 13:22)
The Elect?!

Jesus didn't say that, but He did say this
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, [b]to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[/b]

Sorry, but the elect will not be deceived. If they are, then Jesus does not know what He is talking about here
John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and [b]the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.[/b]

And here
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Since I used this verse, let's ponder this in light of the thread topic. Jesus says that all that come to Him will not be cast out, but some of you have said that other Scriptures say that genuine believers can be lost? The Bible never contradicts itself, so we need to see if there other verses that would substantiate this truth that Christ has redeemed those whom He died for, and that they will not be lost.

John 6:39 And [b]this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[/b]

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto [b]the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;[/b] and they have kept thy word.
John 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
John 17:9 [b]I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. [/b]

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: [b]those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.[/b]

Now let's jump back in to Chapter 6
John 6:44 [b]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [/b]
Remember verse 39

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets,[b] And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. [/b]

This is the reason we can have full assurance that what God has begun, He will complete. We do not initiate the work, we do not create or manufacture faith on our own. It is impossible without the working of the Holy Spirit first.

So as we move on, let us look at this verse

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Could the "foreknown" here be those the Father gave to Christ? and also those who Christ said would not be cast out, but would be raised up at the last day? Could these be His sheep for whom He died?

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This verse says nothing about a child of God "losing" his salvation, but rather guarantees that thos who are called, will be justified, and they will be glorified. Of course again comparing Scripture with Scripture, we see this only carries out the idea Christ was putting forth in John. Those sheep the Father gave Him will not perish, as He is the Good Shepherd who gives His life for them.

But now look at John 6 again

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Notice how Christ contrasts these with those given to Him by the Father. These do not believe, yet He tells them all that the Father gives me will come(believe).

Now look at John 10
John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Look at Christ's answer, it is similar to what He says in John 6
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, [b]I told you, and ye believed not:[/b] the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Why didn't they believe?
John 10:26 [b]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/b]

Notice Christ does not say, "because you don't believe you are not my sheep", but rather, "you do not believe because you are not of my sheep"

Of course we see that the Good Shepherd will not let one of His sheep perish. His death and resurrection has secured their glorification.

Have fun all :-D

Quote:

""Notice Christ does not say, "because you don't believe you are not my sheep", but rather, "you do not believe because you are not of my sheep""

I love this, Thank you for another apologetic for the eternal security of His sheep, and our Lambship in Christ.

I love it.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

""Notice Christ does not say, "because you don't believe you are not my sheep", but rather, "you do not believe because you are not of my sheep""

I love this, Thank you for another apologetic for the eternal security of His sheep, and our Lambship in Christ.

I love it.

In Christ: Phillip

Wow!

When you see the next newborn lamb of God, are you going to tell him it's safe to play with the big bad Wolf?

Or that because he's a nice little lamb of God that the Wolf won't eat him?

Or that hanging around with the big bad Wolf will do him no harm, because of his eternal lambship?

Because that is what Once Saved, Always Saved is saying.

Or are you going to tell that nice little lamb to stay in the middle of the herd, where the Shepherd can protect him?

That is Once Justified, Always Justified.

They are not the same thing, yet so many think so that little lambkins are being preached to by the Wolf!

Blessings,

Forrest

We have a higher calling than Adam and Eve ever did. They were of the dust of the earth, earthly, We are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh, Co Heirs, seated with Christ in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, we are His Body.

This is not according to Scripture...

1 Corinthians 15

47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

In the ressurection, we will be made perfect.

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:

We have a higher calling than Adam and Eve ever did. They were of the dust of the earth, earthly, We are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh, Co Heirs, seated with Christ in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, we are His Body.

This is not according to Scripture...

1 Corinthians 15

47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

In the ressurection, we will be made perfect.

In Christ
Jeff

Thank you, Jeff! You put that point very clearly.

I said in a previous post along these lines that we are BETROTHED to Jesus, not Glorified and Married to Him.

It is only then that we will be safe from ourselves, which is my whole point.

Blessings,

Forrest

pastorfrin wrote on another post, and I've borrowed it:

If ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

What things? 2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:

Through the scripture we have been given these promises. Why?

That by these ye might be partakers of the divine
nature. How? By faith; ”faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.”
Now to faith is added virtue, and to virtue knowledge ect...2 Peter 1:5,6,7

Vs 8 For if these things be in you, and abound,
they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor
unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick {alive)
and powerful (active), and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing
asunder of soul and spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2 Pe 1:9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and
cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he
was purged from his old sins.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not
hears only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in
a glass:24 For he beholdeth himself, and straight
way forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But
whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty,
(see John 8:31-32) and continueth therin, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Why? Because the scripture cannot be broken. John 10:35

Thus, if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
because the word of God says so.

For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.
Ps. 119:89

In His Love

pastorfrin

Pastorfrin,

Hope you don't mind me using your very nice post to other ends, particularly if you don't see a similar application here.

Do you?

Blessings,

Forrest

Alas, I'm stealing quotes from others...please forgive me, HmmmHmmm...it's too good to resist, and I didn't think of it in this application:

2 Pe 1:3-10

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: {to: or, by} 4 Whereby are given [i]unto us[/i] exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 [i]For if these things be in you, and abound[/i], they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. {barren: Gr. idle} 9[u] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.[/u] 10[b] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:[/b]

Which falling states there is a place to fall from, which I merely want people to teach against, instead of encouraging them to think you can never fall!

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED IS A LIE!

Blessings,

Forrest

Those genuinely born of the Spirit will perservere until the end. I am not saying, nor would anyone who reads the Bible, that we should not examine ourselves to see whether we be in the faith, or that grace is a license to sin.

If the Spirit truly indwells a person, they may sin, but there will be a sorrow that leads to repentance. The problem is when people dictate how that repentance should look, or how long it should last etc. Thus producing a "self" centered life wherein all assurance or hope in Christ is determined by the weak, feeble saint who can barely read their Bible at times.

We must be brutally honest brethren, just because many have claimed to be Christians and have fallen does not mean they were, nor that we can now disregard what is taught in Scripture. Our day has seen so much poor theology, and we have invented pragmatic approaches to increase numbers. However this does not mean we judge God or His book by what we see around us. Of course decisional regeneration is a lie, and then if you combine it with telling people that they are "saved" because they prayed a prayer, or walked an aisle, you are asking for disaster both in the Church, and in the life of the person. BUT, this does not negate the true working of God within a person. What He births, He will sustain, and will cause to perservere.

Remember brethren there are tares among the wheat.

Hi roaringlamb...

Those genuinely born of the Spirit will perservere until the end. I am not saying, nor would anyone who reads the Bible, that we should not examine ourselves to see whether we be in the faith, or that grace is a license to sin.

I am not saying that God will condemn anyone to Hell that has suddenly committed a sin. I am saying that if a person CHOOSES to continue in that sin, rather than except the escape that the LORD provides, then that person has abandoned the faith. It seems rather clear to me that an individual who has truly had a born again experience can still possibly abandon the faith. Why? Sin is still enticing for a believer's flesh (we can ALL testify to that). But what is the end for a believer who still believes -- yet is caught up into a continual lifestyle of gross sin?

The Word is clear that someone can run ahead and abandon the faith. The Word is clear that such a person does NOT HAVE GOD (2 John 1:8-9). Can we simply dismiss such individuals as having never been saved? Perhaps "salvation" is relative in our definition. From God's eternal standpoint -- knowing the end from the beginning -- a person who perseveres to the end is saved eternally. From our limited immediate perspective, we are all saved.

I believe that it is the grace of God that draws us back to God when we fall. A person who clings to Christ after such a fall still belongs to God. I also believe that a person who willfully and knowingly walks away has squandered their inheritance. God's grace will continually work in them to repentence. However, there is a point in which they choose the gratification of their sinful nature over their relationship with God. Unless such a person returns to Him, I believe that they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

:-)

Hi Katy-did...

To stand surety for someone means that what has been bought cannot be repossessed. For whatever short fall there is, the surety pays. To be a surety of the better covenant which is the new covenant, means this. Jesus ensures that the promises in the covenant are made effective. Where there is no doubt that God will always keep his side of the covenant. It is our side of the covenant that needs a surety. An illustration of this would be when one enters into a covenant with a bank. The bank always works on the basis of surety. Either you must have collateral or someone must stand surety for you. That way the amount loaned cannot fail to be repaid and re posses ion can't take place. The only time it can be repossessed is when the surety fails. Christ however cannot fail. He is a sure surety.

Is it possible for someone who has once walked with God to abandon God? I would say that it is possible -- no matter how much we can not understand that. I know individuals who have knowingly forsaken their relationship with God -- that they once held so dear -- for the pleasures of sin. It is my view that the Word is extremely clear that an individual who departs the faith, runs ahead, and returns to a life of sin with not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Hebrews 10:26-30
2 John 1:8-9

:-(

Does anybody know what deception is?
Do you think that you can not be decived?

Deceived by thinking that those whom Jesus died for will not be lost? Deceived in believing that Christ the Good Shepherd will keep His sheep?

I'll take it any day over thinking that I somehow warranted or "chose" to be saved.

EDIT: I like how noone has tried to reason away the words of our Lord from John 6. You cannot misapply verse from Hebrews to somehow erase the words of Christ, of the testimony of God's dealings with Israel throughout the OT.

Again, you cannot explain away these promises
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 [b]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

It is a faulty view of what Christ accomplished on the Cross that leads to a misunderstanding of perserverance of the saints, as well as a faulty view of soteriology that would place all the "choosing" in man's hands, but this is not Scriptural.

RoaringLamb...

Do you believe that it is possible for a person who has met Christ, surrendered their life to Him and known Him in intimacy -- to ever fall into sin and abandon the faith?

If this is possible, do you believe that such an individual will go to Heaven while still abandoned from the faith?

:-(

It matters little what I believe, the Scriptures are clear that those who are truly born from above and justified, will be glorified.

Peter denied Christ, yet Jesus did not cast him away. Israel denied Almighty God, yet He does not cast them off. A bruised reed He will not break, nor a smoking flax will He quench.

Maybe those who have made outward professions, never had the inward conversion, but that does not break God's words of assurance to bring His people through.

I cannot believe we are even arguing about this, as this should be the very balm that soothes our souls in time of doubt and distress. The fact that God will hold us, and keep us, and finish what He has begun should not be a point of contention but rather a rallying point for all who are family.

Sister Katy wrote:

Also if perfection had been attainable under the Levitical priesthood what need would there be for another priest to arise in the order of Melchezidek.

Who served as Abraham's high priest?

In Christ
Jeff

hichris, you love the teachings of brother ravenhill.one saying that i remember is that altars are a place of death ... you don't go to an altar to say the sinners prayer; you go to give up your life to Jesus and take His life in exchange. romans asks how can someone dead sin? if you are walking in the spirit(zoe life)sin has nothing to do with you for there is no condamnation for those in Christ Jesus. none, nada,zero..jimp

Who served as Abraham's high priest?

God Himself in contemplation and knowledge of Christ the only High Priest, not made with hands or not offering of animals but Himself, an order of High Priest that cannot be but given by God.

In Christ the only high Priest from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:6-13 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Our High Priest has chosen us to offer Himself a living sacrifice for the son's of God that we might be living sacrifices unto God our Father.
A kingdom of Priests. Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
We can only present our bodies a living sacrifice by the Living Sacrifice Himself that is born again in us. The only High Priest to make a kingdom of priests. Holy And Acceptable to God, This clay pot the container of The High Priest Himself. Making us Holy and acceptable to God.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi roaringlamb...

It matters little what I believe, the Scriptures are clear that those who are truly born from above and justified, will be glorified.

I cannot believe we are even arguing about this, as this should be the very balm that soothes our souls in time of doubt and distress. The fact that God will hold us, and keep us, and finish what He has begun should not be a point of contention but rather a rallying point for all who are family.

What do I believe about this debate? Someone a few posts back made reference to my respect for the writings of Leonard Ravenhill. When I met with him in his home in 1994 (when I was but a young teen), we discussed quite a few things. One of the things that he said is that he does not take a stand on such a debate -- on either side. He said it is pointless to create a doctrine such as "eternal security" when the Word is so clear about the end result of a soul that lives in continual sin. At the same time, we understand that the grace of God exists.

My understanding of this "grace" is very different than some. It is indeed possible to insult the "Spirit of grace" (Hebrews 10:26-30) by deliberately sinning. While it is easy to claim that such an individual was "never truly born again," I believe and have known individuals who have walked sincerely with God only to turn back to this world because of persecution, the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the pleasures of sin.

What is my position in such a doctrinal dispute? NEITHER. I don't believe that an individual will easily lose his salvation. The grace of God draws such an individual back to repentance. If a person has truly met and fellowshipped with the LORD, this is the greatest and most valuable possession in life. But I do believe that an individual can run ahead and depart the faith. I have known individuals who have fallen into temptation and continually lived in such sin. As a believer, I am still tempted daily. These are not simply sins of commission, but sins of ommission.

While some could say that this is an embrace of either position, it is really an embrace of neither. I worry about those who feel that the grace of God is so limited as to keep a person from sinning. But I also worry about an individual who insults the Spirit of grace by making excuses for sin.

:-(

Brother,
Your words were very kind.

He said it is pointless to create a doctrine such as "eternal security" when the Word is so clear about the end result of a soul that lives in continual sin.

I would agree with this to a point. What I mean is that if we are honest with ourselves and God, we will see that it is impossible to live one day without sin. Every stray thought not revolving around Christ is an apostate thought and therefore sin, every idle moment that could be better spent is sin. Now we cannot rename these sins to claim we are sinless, because there was and will be unitl glory one Sinless One. Yet Christ does not quench the wick even if there is much smoke and little light or heat.

The true child of God will sin :-o, BUT, there will be conviction of sin. I like to think of a pig and a cat. A pig has no problem laying in the mud and filth, but a cat is picky even about a splash of water on its coat. The pig will be a pig until it is changed into something else. It is a simple illustration and I hope it serves the purpose- the unsaved could care nothing about the offense they have caused to God or their fellow man. The sanctification process is ongoing, and at times down right painful as the fire rises to purify even the things we thought were glorifying to God. But He does not cast us off.

How is it that the laws we could not keep prior to knowing Christ, suddenly in our human strength we are now able to perfectly obey? There is one Mediator, one Justifier, and that is Christ.

But again, just so none accuse me of being antinomian, a true child of God will battle against the sin remaining in them, and this would be one suggestion that there is Another living within now.

roaringlamb wrote:
Deceived by thinking that those whom Jesus died for will not be lost?
Deceived in believing that Christ the Good Shepherd will keep His sheep?

Enough lies and one will soon be way off tract fron the truth.

[b]2Thes 2:3[/b] [color=990000]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/color]
What and WHO do you think ones are "falling away" from?

[b]2Tim 4:3[/b] [color=990000]For the time will come when they will [b]not endure sound doctrine[/b]; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[b]:4[/b] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[/color]
Who will heap up teachers to themselves?
This is clearly the Church!

[b]Jeremiah 5:31[/b] [color=990000]The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and [b]my people love to have it so[/b]: and what will ye do in the end thereof?[/color]

How could you be so hard minded and not see this?

Furthermore, when we see pneumo-centric worship based on The Holy Spirit instead of Christo-centric worship, with The Spirit pointing to Jesus

When drunken behaviour and animal imitations are advocated as manifestations of The Holy Spirit (as in Toronto, Pensacola and Holy Trinity Brompton), we know it is an demonic spirit and we see leaven in the Church. [b]Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.[/b]
When we see Morris Cerullo pronouncing a little child healed who tragically dies shortly afterwards after stopping her medication and we see him marketing his "Holy Ghost Miracle Cloths” to Remove debt, we see leaven.

I unfortunately don't see what you're getting at. One form of deception would be that I of my own "free will" chose God over sin without God renewing my heart to want what I once despised(Christ), and to despise what I once loved(sin, self, satan). That is one of the oldest most subtle serpents to creep around the world. Pelagius taught it, the Roman Catholics still teach it, and the Arminians applaud it while mixing in forms of Calvinism in part because of confusion as to what Historic Arminianism teaches.

If a person is justified by God, it has nothing to do with that person, but all to do with God's amazing grace and choice of that person. Now before anyone gets upset, let me ask the question how do you know who has been chosen and who hasn't? Get out and preach the Gospel and those who are converted were, and those who don't may need another day, or were not chosen. But there at least is hope that the labour will not be unfruitful!

Good word katy, thank you for sharing.

roaringlamb wrote:
I unfortunately don't see what you're getting at.

roaringlamb wrote:
One form of deception would be that I of my own "free will" chose God over sin without God renewing my heart to want what I once despised(Christ), and to despise what I once loved(sin, self, satan).

Man is not so depraved that he can not know the truth about his own sin and conemnation.

roaringlamb wrote:
That is one of the oldest most subtle serpents to creep around the world. Pelagius taught it, the Roman Catholics still teach it, and the Arminians applaud it while mixing in forms of Calvinism in part because of confusion as to what Historic Arminianism teaches.

There is more retention in ones keeping with the faith by Finney than Billy Graham.

Finney had an 80% retention rate because he apeald to the intelect and not the emotions that so many today are doing.

roaringlamb wrote:
If a person is justified by God, it has nothing to do with that person, but all to do with God's amazing grace and choice of that person.

roaringlamb wrote:
Get out and preach the Gospel

John 3:16-17 For God so loved some of the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever HE chooses must believeth in him would not perish while He chooses the rest to burn in Hell as He created them to do.
:17 For God sent his Son into the world to condemn most the world; but that some of the world through him might be saved."

Finney had an 80% retention rate because he apeald to the intelect and not the emotions that so many today are doing.

Finney upheld the Pelagian lie that says, "if I ought, I can" or that man is not dead in sin as the Scriptures declare. Thus man can at anytime freely choose God.

Finney preached against vices and convicted people of moral failures. He even went so far as to say it was a sin to use too much sugar, or to drink coffee.

I reccommend these articles

[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm]Finney[/url]

[url=http://www.the-highway.com/articleMar00.html]Charles Finney[/url]

As far as percentage of retention, how do you know that is true? Also God has a 100% retention rate. Those whom He calls and regenrates go on to glory!!!

Preach the Calvinistic gosple?

John 3:16-17 For God so loved some of the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever HE chooses must believeth in him would not perish while He chooses the rest to burn in Hell as He created them to do.
:17 For God sent his Son into the world to condemn most the world; but that some of the world through him might be saved."

The very verse you quoted is more "calvinist" than you suppose. Look at it without any preconceived or emotional ideas.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world,[i](not just the Jews, as Jesus is speaking to Nicodemas who believed as did all Jews at this time that salvation was only for the Jews)[/i] that he gave his only begotten Son, [b]that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,[/b][i](It is poor study that places the emphasis of this passage on "whosoever", for the "whosoever" must do something to not perish, that is believe. But no man can believe unless he is born from above to see the Kingdom and its King.)[/i] but have everlasting life.

Brother, does God owe man salvation? Some who have made an idol for themselves would say, "yes, everyman deserves a chance" But I ask you this, "who says?" Man or God?

Man had a chance once, and as you and I have been through before, man's will is not nuetral or torn between two sides. Man's will is against God, and taken captive by Satan-

2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves [b]out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/b]

This is why Jesus told the pharisees, "ye are of your father the devil, and his deeds will ye do." Jesus also told them that he that committs sin is the slave to sin.

Man is not nuetral. Even Adam was not nuetral, he very much was pro-God, but at the instigation of Satan sinned and became pro-satan(I will allow you to say self, as satan is the god of self).

Until you come to grips with how utterly wretched man is, you will not understand the fullness of the Saviour, and the level to which He stooped to redeem you. Cast away your idol of free-will and thank God that He granted you faith to believe, and grace to be in Christ and a child of God.

Grace and peace to you, and much agape :-)

First of all, I don't agree 100% w/Finney.

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother, does God owe man salvation? Some who have made an idol for themselves would say, "yes, everyman deserves a chance" But I ask you this, "who says?" Man or God?

roaringlamb wrote:
Man had a chance once, and as you and I have been through before, man's will is not nuetral or torn between two sides. Man's will is against God, and taken captive by Satan-

roaringlamb wrote:
Man's will is against God, and taken captive by Satan-

What is the carnal mind set?
It it to live for the desires of your fleshly compultions.

The only reason why the one who is not saved can only live by the fleash is because His root is not Christ.
While one is not grafted in Christ, his root is of himself, therfore, he is selfish.

One Who is selfish will naturaly do what he wants and not another's, even Christ, thus, he sinns.

Furthermore, You put to much emphasis on the satan and not enough on the world.

The choice is not "heaven or hell", but "heaven or this world".
[b]James 4:4[/b] [color=990000]Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.[/color]
[b]1John 2:15[/b] [color=990000]Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[/color]

roaringlamb wrote:
(I will allow you to say self, as satan is the god of self).

satan is not the "god of self", you are the god of your self, I am the god of my self.
Again, you put to much emphasis satan.

Satan can do nothing unless you give him a foothold.

roaringlamb wrote:
Until you come to grips with how utterly wretched man is, you will not understand the fullness of the Saviour,

Man is not [b]utterly[/b] wretched, only wretched.

Man is not "totlay depraved, but ony depraved.

[b]Rom 7:22[/b] [color=990000]For I delight in the Law of God according to the [b]inward man[/b];[/color]
In other words:
For I delight in the requirements of God according to [b]my true self[/b].

[b]Rom 7:23[/b] [color=990000]but I see another law in my members having warred against [b]the law of my mind[/b], and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.[/color]
In other words:
But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against [b]the standard of my moral conscience[/b], and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul coud "delight in the Law of God" & war with "the law of his mind" against sin (his own fleshly desires) being in his members, That would not make him [b]totaly[/b] depraved.

Until you come to grips with reality you will always continue in your docrtin of your ignorance.
With that doctrin, you will not understand the fullness of reality, and the level to which He made man according to His image.

roaringlamb wrote:
...and the level to which He stooped to redeem you.

roaringlamb wrote:
thank God that He granted you faith to believe,and grace to be in Christ and a child of God

My god has granted [b]all[/b] men faith as He has granted [b]all[/b] men breath.

Some men choose not to put their faith in Him.

Therefore, it is man who puts him self in hell and not the God who loves them.

Katy-did:

You did not answer what and WHO do you think ones are "falling away" from in 2Thes 2:3?

OR

Who will heap up teachers to themselves?
This is clearly the Church in 2Tim 4:3-4

Brother, I would like to apologize for not having compassion with you in the situation with your grandfather and ask forgiveness for not asking you how you are with your loss.

This to me is more important than our discussion as I see it has and must still cause you pain. If I may pray for you, please direct me how.

I hope that you have not felt personally attacked in any of my responses, if so please let me know. I will tread lightly, but according to my convictions as based upon Scripture, and the testimony thereof.

You evidently do not know what atonement is about.

I do know what the Bible says about the atonement, and it does not say it is for all men. All men will not be saved therefore the atonement is not for all men. Is unbelief a sin? if it is, then why didn't the universal atonement cancel that out for all?

The choice is not "heaven or hell", but "heaven or this world".
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
1John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

These verses are not written to unsaved people, they are written to Christians, and are warnings to them.

What do you say about these verses
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, [b]and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [/b]

And then after the flood
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; [b]for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;[/b] neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Notice how Paul describes the Colossians before Christ
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and [b]enemies in your mind by wicked works,[/b] yet now hath he reconciled

Does not the mind control much of our decisions? If so, then an evil mind produces evil fruit which is really an outflow of an evil heart is it not?

satan is not the "god of self", you are the god of your self, I am the god of my self.
Again, you put to much emphasis satan.

Satan can do nothing unless you give him a foothold.

I said satan is the god of the unsaved as he has enslaved and deceived them, thus he entraps them in the sin they love.

As for satan needing a foothold, ever read Job? God allows satan to buffet His children at times, but satan is at God's command.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
In other words:
For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.

Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.
In other words:
But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul coud "delight in the Law of God" & war with "the law of his mind" against sin (his own fleshly desires) being in his members, That would not make him totaly depraved.

This would work except Paul here is speaking as a saved man, thus he sees the conflict and the battle of enjoying one while hating the other.
Romans 7:6 But [b]now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.[/b] This is prior to his description of the struggle.

Also compare with
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

In the unsaved, there is no battle, man drinks down iniquity like water.

Until you come to grips with reality you will always continue in your docrtin of your ignorance.
With that doctrin, you will not understand the fullness of reality, and the level to which He made man according to His image.

Man was made in the image of God, yet that image was severely marred when sin entered and will not be fully re-established until that day when we will see Him and be like Him.

Unsaved man has more in common with the devil and his demons than he does with God.

I will not thank that Calvinistic tyrant of a god.

My god has granted all men faith as He has granted all men breath.

Some men choose not to put their faith in Him.

Therefore, it is man who puts him self in hell and not the God who loves them.

Again you say, "your god", but is your god the God of Scripture?

Consider this passage
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: [b]Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.[/b]

It says nothing about man sending himself to hell, but rather God casting them into hell.

It is not the Calvinist God I defend brother, I defend the fact that God is sovereign over all His creation, and that as it says in Psalm 115, "he has done whatsoever has pleased Him"

hi logic, you put man as the center of salvation and security while some of us put God in the center. for thousands of years salvation was of the jews only, damning the rest of the world. the gospel is that man is already guilty and sentenced to death and a merciful God saves some. we preach whosoever will may come for it is truth.predestination is a past event only controled by God only,we don't have a clue who he elected so we preach like arminians and believe like calvinist.is the door an exit or an entrance? is the traffic signal red or green... it is always both red and green.. depends upon which way you approach it. your logic is simplistic and not one that sees God as very sovereign. jimp

I have not been following this discussion because too often one that deals with OSAS becomes long and involved and I have too much other work to do. So, I did read a few postings and one poster said something about using Scripture to defend a position. When I hear this subject discussed, my mind goes to Ezekiel 18 and here it is for your consideration. It is from the NASB:
1Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
2"What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
'The fathers eat the sour grapes,
But the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.
4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die.
5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period--
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD.
10"Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother
11(though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor's wife,
12oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination,
13he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.
14"Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise.
15"He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
16 or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
17he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.
18"As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
19"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practice justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20"The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22"All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right ' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27"Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28"Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29"But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

To any who would challenge the use of an OT Scripture, I would have to ask, is there a NT one which will directly contradict it? Remember the Jesus' teachings were first introduced to people through the OT prophets. So when Jesus came on the scene, he really did not preach anything the OT prophets have not alluded to in one form or another. He may have clarfied it, expanded on it, but the essense was there.

Please pardon me if this has already been shared...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I've heard many (Calvinists) say the Elect are those God just picked their names out of a hat, for no reason but just to exercise His sovereignty.

Hi katy, I apologize for whoever told you this as this is not Scriptural. God bases election upon foreknowledge of certain ones. We of course have no idea who are elect, or how many are elect thus the need to preach the Gospel to all creatures.

I think this verse shows a foreknowledge aspect in whom Christ died for
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us,[i](Of course the "us" is Christians that Paul is addressing, and not unbelievers)[/i] in that, while we were yet sinners,[i](God's foreknowloedge of who was to be justified by the Cross)[/i] Christ died for us.[i](Again note the "us" is the church, and not all people, thus limiting the atoning aspect of the cross)[/i]

Paul further emphasises the atonement point here
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [b]by whom we have now received the atonement.[/b]

The "we" is of course Christians whom Paul was writing to.

So the question is, if God in time past knew those who He would redeem in the future, then we must bow to the idea that God has a remnant from all humanity that He will save. it is no different than when the flood happened. God knew that only Noah and his family would be delivered, yet He flooded the Earth.

Now as to your points about the OT view of atonement, I believe your use of Israel in the wilderness may not be the best illustration against limited or particular atonement.

Here's why,
- Firstly, we do not know that those who died in the wilderness are indeed in hell(If there is Scripture, let me know, and I will retract this point)

-Second, the atonement at the Passover was indeed limited. It had no effectiveness for those in Egypt, unless they fled to the homes of the Israelites. Thus we see that the atoning or appeasing work was limited to a group. I rarely here any cry that it was unfair for Pharaoh, or the children that died that evening.

-Third, the whole sacrificial system was indeed limited to Israel alone. The Hittites, Hivites, Philistines, Babylonians etc. had no part in the effect of the sacrifices being offered to God, and thus they had no covering for their sins. Again, I do not ever hear many saying how unfair it was of God not to open another way for all to be included in the sacrifices. Of course there were individuals from those groups that partook of the sacrifices which are usually referred to as "the stranger among you", but as a whole, God's people alone had benefit of the sacrifice.

We too as the people of God have the benefit of the Sacrifice, and again sadly it does not have universal effect. It is indeed limited to those whom God foreknew, those who were yet sinners when Christ died for them, but are being brought into the fold presently.

Bro. sscott,
Thank you for your post. I reccommend a book entitled "The Bondage Of The Will" by Martin Luther. It is as he said his best theological work. It is based upon a debate he and Erasmus had regarding the freedom of man's will.

The will of man so far as I can see is like a man in a cell. He may stand freely, and walk around but, he is still in the cell. Thus a man may make choices about what he will do, eat, drink etc., but the heart is in love with and in bondage to sin is his mater, and he is not free at all. Jesus said it best, "he that committs sin is the slave of sin", and Paul said, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:16

But in all of this the Divine hand is at work, look at Joseph's words to his brothers
Genesis 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, [b]I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.[/b]
Genesis 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: [b]for God did send me before you to preserve life.[/b]
Gen 45:6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7 [b]And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth,[/b] and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
Gen 45:8 [b]So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God:[/b] and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt

Genesis 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Genesis 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, [b]ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good,[/b] to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Here's a couple more verse to consider
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, [b]even the wicked for the day of evil.[/b]

sscott wrote:
Can you explain how you view election in light of not believing in limited atonement?

Must allways be in reguard to His foreknowledge of whoo will choose.

As I made an example before:
I know my wife so well that I know that she will choose "Olive Guarden" over all other restaurants
if it is in the choises.
Therefore I make reservations before I ask and order her usual mean all before I ask.

It was all predetermind, and she had all the chances to go anywhere els in the choices, but I foreknew that we were going to "Olive Guarden"

Another example:
I am alreay at "Olive Guarden" and I will only elect those to come to where I am eating, that want to be at "Olive Guarden" with me.
I foreknew that some hate me and not like where I am.
However, I love those who hate me enough to make away for them to come and dine with me, and give the invitation out to all who love and hate me.

jimp wrote:
hi logic, you put man as the center of salvation and security while some of us put God in the center.

Man sees his need and chooses the alternatives of the world which is seen or something that is not seen but evidently real..

If man does not have choice, that woiuld mean there is no alternative.
There must be an alternative for man, otherwise he is not responsible for going to his end.

Not responsible also for his end if he personaly didn't put the condemnation on himself as people say that Adam did.

Not being personaly responsible for his own fall with no alternative to choose makes God to be a tyrant that creates man especialy for hell and only some for heaven.

With choice of alternative, man is the one responsible for being thrown to hell by knowingly rejecting the truth with all the ability of choosing eather.

jimp wrote:
we preach whosoever will may come for it is truth

jimp wrote:
your logic is simplistic and not one that sees God as very sovereign.

My doctrine gives God more sovereignty and glory.

Katy-did wrote:
Logic, I hope this answers your question.

Sorry, all you keep doing is putting scripture that I see no relivsznce to.
If there is, please comment on who & how the scriptures sais that they are "falling away" from what or Who, and Who will heap up teachers to themselves.

Logic wrote:
Must allways be in reguard to His foreknowledge of whoo will choose.

The scripture you quote only says according to his foreknowledge. Please direct me to the scripture that says it is a foreknowledge of who would choose.

Called and elected are eternally saved in Christ Jesus. Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

This speaking of Esau and Jacob also speaks to us that the election might stand of Him that calleth and giveth to Christ those that are His, that no one can take out of His hand.

Unless God is an abortionist. Eternal Security? Yes to the utmost.

In Christ: Phillip

roaringlamb wrote:
I do know what the Bible says about the atonement, and it does not say it is for all men. All men will not be saved therefore the atonement is not for all men. Is unbelief a sin? if it is, then why didn't the universal atonement cancel that out for all?

The work of Christ on His cross(atonement) makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

Sounds like I'm repeating myself.

Atonement does not save, but [b]is for all[/b] who will take advantage of it.
The relationship with Christ does. The actual salvation is eternal life (John 17:3).

roaringlamb wrote:
I said satan is the god of the unsaved as he has enslaved and deceived them, thus he entraps them in the sin they love.

roaringlamb wrote:
This would work except Paul here is speaking as a saved man, thus he sees the conflict and the battle of enjoying one while hating the other.

Therefore the verses I shown do describe a man unsaved depraved, but not [b]totaly[/b].

roaringlamb wrote:
In the unsaved, there is no battle, man drinks down iniquity like water.

roaringlamb wrote:
Unsaved man has more in common with the devil and his demons than he does with God.

[b]Luke 12:5[/b] [color=990000]But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.[/color]

roaringlamb wrote:
It says nothing about man sending himself to hell, but rather God casting them into hell.

Because they did not take advantage of His forgiveness to be saved.

If it is [b][size=large]ALL GOD[/size][/b] and none of man, then you have God making Adam eat of the tree and condeming hif for it, because God is all sovereign and makes ALL things happen whith out the choice of another.

If it is [b][size=large]ALL GOD[/size][/b] and none of man, then you have God asigning a sin nature on embryos in the womb and charging them with sin and with the guilt of iniquity before it even thinks wrongly. All this causes man to be incapable of turning to God.

The man who brought none of this on himself because Adam did, but you say that the man himself did but I don't know how, because they can't choose not to sin from the start and the sin is not a choice from the begining but it is who one is.

There is know fault of man what soever in this doctrine.
I can not make sence out of your god.

My God creates embryos free of sin. they are free of sin until they are accountable for it.

Then the are free to choose Christ to free them of theire inability to continualy obey the law.

If one does not choose Christ, it is because He [b]will not[/b] choose, [b]not[/b] because he [b]can not[/b] and by default he chooses to go to hell.

Incapability take guilt away, because thyere is no law against incapabilities.

Isaiah 55:10-11 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

"""Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ro 9:7
Verse 7. Are they all children. Adopted into the true family of God. Many of the descendants of Abraham were rejected.
But in Isaac. This was the promise, Ge 21:12.

Shall thy seed, etc. Thy true people. This implied a selection, or choice; and, therefore, the doctrine of election was illustrated in the very commencement of the history of the nation; and as God had then made such a distinction, he might still do it. As he had then rejected a part of the natural descendants of Abraham, so he might, still do it. This is the argument which the apostle is pursuing.

{i} "In Isaac" Isa 55:11"""

The Fruit of God's promise through whom the Promised Seed Christ would come by the Spirit.

First: Ishmael: Genesis 21:12-13 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

The Seed of Abraham is the bases of Islam, who has been against Israel from Abraham's Loins. The fruit of the flesh of Abraham.

This is not the Seed of Isaac that is to be called to fulfill God's Word sent forth.

Isaiah 55:10-13 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

This is the Seed of Christ, of the promise to Abraham. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy Seed, which is Christ

Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

This is the Seed given to the Sower, who is God. He sows the Seed of Christ in us when we are born again. 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Seed is the One that brings forth the "bud", that causes the fruit of Christ to be born again of Christ in the believer. Seed to the Sower, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", and gives "bread", to the one that eats His flesh and drinks His blood, "This do in remembrance of Me".

Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

This is the Word, born again in us by the Incorruptable Seed of Christ. This is the mountains and the hills singing of the Glory of God in Christ. Even the trees of the field shall clap their at This Glory, which is Christ come forth on the earth as rain and snow that waters the born again seed in the believer, which is the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This Word sent forth which is Christ the Word of God, shall not return into God void, It will accomplish that which God pleases, It will prosper into the believer unto where He sends it.

How can God loose that which He has accomplished in the believer by the birthing of His Son in us. Eternal Security is accomplished by God and it does please Him. We cannot loose our salvation, when it is God that gives it and it will not return void unto Him.

Isaiah 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

We cannot be cut off, For we are to the Lord His Name, Christ-ones, this is the everlasting sign in Christ, not only Christians but son's of God in The Seed, Jesus Christ.

In Christ forever, sealed by the Holy Spirit
"given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Who do we believe in? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Phillip

“Are they Israelites? so am I.”
— 2 Corinthians 11:22

We have here a personal claim, and one that needs proof. The apostle knew that his claim was indisputable, but there are many persons who have no right to the title who yet claim to belong to the Israel of God. If we are with confidence declaring, “So am I also an Israelite,” let us only say it after having searched our heart as in the presence of God. But if we can give proof that we are following Jesus, if we can from the heart say, “I trust him wholly, trust him only, trust him simply, trust him now, and trust him ever,” then the position which the saints of God hold belongs to us—all their enjoyments are our possessions; we may be the very least in Israel, “less than the least of all saints,” yet since the mercies of God belong to the saints as saints, and not as advanced saints, or well-taught saints, we may put in our plea, and say, “Are they Israelites? so am I; therefore the promises are mine, grace is mine, glory will be mine.” The claim, rightfully made, is one which will yield untold comfort. When God’s people are rejoicing that they are his, what a happiness if they can say, “So am I!” When they speak of being pardoned, and justified, and accepted in the Beloved, how joyful to respond, “Through the grace of God, so am I.” But this claim not only has its enjoyments and privileges, but also its conditions and duties. We must share with God’s people in cloud as well as in sunshine. When we hear them spoken of with contempt and ridicule for being Christians, we must come boldly forward and say, “So am I.” When we see them working for Christ, giving their time, their talent, their whole heart to Jesus, we must be able to say, “So do I.” O let us prove our gratitude by our devotion, and live as those who, having claimed a privilege, are willing to take the responsibility connected with it.
(Spurgeon)

When we see them working for Christ, giving their time, their talent, their whole heart to Jesus, we must be able to say, “So do I.” O let us prove our gratitude by our devotion, and live as those who, having claimed a privilege, are willing to take the responsibility connected with it.

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

So do I!

Christinyou wrote:
Called and elected are eternally saved in Christ Jesus. Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

This speaking of Esau and Jacob also speaks to us that the election might stand of Him that calleth and giveth to Christ those that are His, that no one can take out of His hand.

Unless God is an abortionist. Eternal Security? Yes to the utmost.

Unless God is an nut job in the sky who doesn't care if men willfuly come to him and stay with him. Eternal Security? no, to the utmost.

Does your god want men to willfuly come and stay with him or does he creat them in the woumb(Psalm 51:5 ) so that they are incapable and He needs to make them willing?
What glory is that?

The security is that God is definatly going to keep his word, not us definatly staying with him.

Look at reality, there are thousands of men who are forgiven and take Christs sacrifice for their sins. But they drift awy so very subtly from the tuth that they distort the truth so much that it eventualy becomes a complete lie.

They didn't purposfuly love a lie, but they didn't love the pure truth eather. They loved the mixture of truth with the lies.

They loved the truth that Chrst saved them from their sins and saved them from hell, but they loved the lie that God saved them to make their life better. He saved them from poverty. When they get into the TBN doctrine they exchange the truth for a lie(Rom 1:25)

Katy-did,

I think maybe you missed what Brother Spurgeon was saying. If you claim something it should be seen in your life only then can we say:
"So Do I"

Matthew 7:20-21
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

In His Love
pastorfrin

The work of Christ on His cross(atonement) makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

Who then are the many, the ones who the Messiah bore the sins of in these verses-
Isa 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Notice also, Christ will save His people from their sins, not all people
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call [b]his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. [/b]

His people are the sheep that He dies for, and the ones given Him by the Father of which Christ said none of them would lost, and that noone could take them from His hand.

Only the Church of God has been purchased by the cross. Of course in eternity this was decreed as was the number, and in time is being worked out.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, [b]to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [/b]

Titus 2:14 [b]Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. [/b]

The "us" applies only to Christians, and notice is does not say that Christ gave Himself for the world to redeem them, but rather us, the people God foreknew, and elected.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?
He does not enslave people, but their own sin does.

But what of this verse?
Romans 6:20 For [b]when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. [/b]

Does Paul not know what he is saying when he says this-
2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Was Christ wrong when He told Paul this was the work for him to do-
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, [b]and from the power of Satan unto God,[/b] that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Why would they be under the power or authority of satan if what you say is true?

If it is ALL GOD and none of man, then you have God making Adam eat of the tree and condeming hif for it, because God is all sovereign and makes ALL things happen whith out the choice of another.

If it is ALL GOD and none of man, then you have God asigning a sin nature on embryos in the womb and charging them with sin and with the guilt of iniquity before it even thinks wrongly. All this causes man to be incapable of turning to God.

But you are not looking at the fact that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, or before anything existed. Therefore God decreed, or allowed sin to come into existence through satan and his deception of Adam and Eve. God could very well have never allowed sin into man, but then there would be no need for a Saviour. You have God making Adam eat of the fruit, but Adam and Eve had a choice(they are the only ones to have a will untainted with sin aside from Christ), yet they willingly forfeited communion with God for satan's deception thus plunging man into death(spiriutal and physical).

Do children die, or get sick? Of course they do thus proving the effect of the fall on them as well as death was not an option prior to the fall of Adam in the garden.

You are trying to peer into the secret will of God, rather than accepting the revealed will of God. God gives us no reason as to why He allowed sin to exist, nor does He tell us why He hasn't chosen all men to be saved, for if He had, they would be.

My God creates embryos free of sin. they are free of sin until they are accountable for it.

Again I say this, your god may not be who you think he is, where in Scripture do we see this age of accountability? Or is it a man-made idea?

roaringlamb wrote:

The work of Christ on His cross(atonement) makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

Who then are the many, the ones who the Messiah bore the sins of in these verses-
Isa 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: [b]by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Notice also, Christ will save His people from their sins, not all people
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call [b]his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.[/b]

roaringlamb wrote:
His people are the sheep that He dies for,

Otherwise you can not tell people that you are witnessing to, "christ died for you"
Because He might not have, [b]if[/b] he only died for a few.

How els could Peter tell every one, "Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."(Act 2:38)

Act 20:28 is about those who actualy took advantage of the Blood of Christ.
Notice the word "might" in Titus 2:14.
That referes to the chance for anyone.

roaringlamb wrote:
God could very well have never allowed sin into man, but then there would be no need for a Saviour.

roaringlamb wrote:
You have God making Adam eat of the fruit, but Adam and Eve had a choice

roaringlamb wrote:
Do children die, or get sick? Of course they do thus proving the effect of the fall on them as well as death was not an option prior to the fall of Adam in the garden.

roaringlamb wrote:
You are trying to peer into the secret will of God, rather than accepting the revealed will of God. God gives us no reason as to why He allowed sin to exist,

roaringlamb wrote:
nor does He tell us why He hasn't chosen all men to be saved, for if He had, they would be.

roaringlamb wrote:
Again I say this, your god may not be who you think he is, where in Scripture do we see this age of accountability? Or is it a man-made idea?

This veres is even about Jesus.

Hi folks,

Without getting into a discussion can someone give a definition of the word - election.

Hey i'm elected but i'm not a calvinist, i believe in the election according to God and not Calvin.

If we have wrong conception about the doctrine of election let us not have wrong perception at least what it means to DO God's will and know Christ.

If we are truly christians then we sould know Jesus personally in our hearts and hear the voice of the Shepherd and folow Him.

If we bear fruits and have a faith that works by love, and shows itself it good works and abide in Jesus and let his word abide in us, it means for me that the one who does such a thing is for sure elected and dearly loved of God.

We are saved by grace alone but true faith leads to good works.A good tree will bear good fruits otherwise it risks to be cursed.

Many christians will pass through the trial of fire, even though their works will burn up their souls will be saved but no rewards for them.

Many still will be amazed in the last judgment to realize that even they had religious experiences, had tasted the word of God, the powers of the world to come, performed miracles and cast out demons ect but unfortunatly will find themselves excluded from the kingdome of Heaven and New Jerusalem.

Praise God there will be one day in heaven countless of people from every nation, tribe and language elected to the glory of our heavenly Father and his Son Jesus.

UniqueWebRev wrote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:

Is everyone in agreement then, that all those living (and above the age of accountability) who are in an active relationship with Christ, known as 'saved', must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith, or lose that salvation?

I believe this is well stated.
I find that our doctrines are firm as anything, until they are tested.

The tests come with the pressures of life and the enemy's deceptions attacking at our minds and hearts, as well as our loved ones.

Until I saw people I loved becoming harder and harder towards the Lord and "the fear of the Lord", I was a OSAS person. I could share the verses that showed that doctrine.

When I watched the hardening and deceptive process first hand, some in myself (though, praise His name I have been delivered) and in others I deeply love, I knew, people CAN fall away.

I know we are not to base our convictions on experience, but on the authority of the Word of God. Yet I believe the Lord does show us, time and time again, through actual experiences, that His Word is true and the consequences of violating His commands are REAL.

As we debate probabilities or wonderments, many of those who call themselves brethren are promoting homosexual practice and "monogamy" in the church. Others are committing adultery of the remarriage type or pornography type. Others are believing they are God's when they never truly repented since they were "pretty good people".

I have had to come to the understanding that you can fall into deception. You can become influenced by deceiving spirits. You can take yourself into darkness and really believe you are right!!

I am sorry I am not posting Scripture, but I have read enough to know that these ideas are taught by Paul, Peter, James and John. And especially Jesus.

He seemed to teach fruit and motives. He seemed to "measure faith by someone's obedience" I know some will shrink back at that, but He did say, "If you love Me, you will obey My commands".

I used to experience the cosy belief that you could never lose your inheritance, until I read,

1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.

So if one who is a believer, even a leader in the church, is practicing these things, and has been considered "born again" due to asking the Lord into their soul at an earlier time, we would say, they will continue to inherit, though this verse would teach otherwise?

Mahoney wrote:
Forrest,

I absolutely disagree! I disagree because your statement is entirely too subjective...what does "continuous walk forward" mean? What does that look like?

I will re-quote myself with emphasis on the particular words that you all might see that what I said was not subjective at all, but under a specific condition.

[color=0000ff]Is everyone in agreement then, that [b][u]all those living[/b][/u] (and above the age of accountability) [b][u]who are in an active relationship with Christ[/b][/u], known as 'saved', [b][u]must maintain a continous walk forward in that relationship in faith[/b][/u], or lose that salvation?[/color]

Is not faith enjoined on us as a continuous condition of salvation, the breach of which, is unbelief, and therefore, non-relationship with Christ?

Blessings,

Forrest

Works without faith are dead, and that faith must be the faith of the Son of God to be works treasured up in heaven.

Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Born of God. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

In Him, Praise God we cannot sin for Christ is not the minister of sin.

The flesh can still sin, but we have an Advocate with the Father, "If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleans us from all unrighteousness."

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Katy-did and GrannieAnnie,

I wholehearted agree with what both of you are saying, you see we may have deffrent views but essentially we are of like minded when it comes to who is really an authentic christian and how to be sure of salvation.

I dont wanna preoccupy myself much with theological issues as i used to do before because i think it's more important to obey the Bible and according to the light and revelation that the Holy Spirit reveals to us through the studing of scriptures let us zealously follow the Lord.
If something is wrong in mmy convictions and opinions may the Lord enlight my mind that i may beter understand the doctrines of scriptures and the whole counsel of God.But the emphasis shouldnt be as much theological (and i'm talking here about born again christian who agree in the essentials of christian faith) as it should be practical.

There are many things that i dont understand with my intellect in the Bible but i wholehearted believe them.

Now i'm not a calvinist but i believe in election, why? because the bible says it and that's enough for me. I dont wanna explain it away i just take it by faith that he loved us first before we ever thought about it or even before our fragile existance.

Why he chose me, ohh, can i really explain that bro & sis, honestly not, He is Sovreign, He is the Potter and i'm the clay, He first loved & chose us. Now God when he predestined us according to His forknowledge it was not because of any merits of our own, oh NO it was because of his tender mercies and amazing GRACE but does this mean that God disregarded are personal choices,no no.

That's a mystery unexplainable for me He chose us before the foundation of the whole world to be vessels of mercy & honor and yet in time when we heard the gosple invitation we made our own choice in accepting his free gift of salvation and believing Jesus as Lord and Saviour. He the God of love dint forced us to believe.

The moment somebody tries to explain election in a logical way, he is trying to understand by limited intellect the mind of an INFINITE GOD.It's better to lieve room for some amazement and awe and wonder to the misteries of predestination.

Do i have to be a calvinist to believe in predestination, no, do i have to be an arminian to believe in man's responsability and free choice, no. My conscience at last has found peace on this matter, i just believe my Bible and dont take for granted my salvation as if to mean just an experiece of the past and then whatever i do at least someday i'll get to heaven,absolutly not.

Jesus is my salvation and i want to be in Him and live for Him, outside him i'm lost and miserable and know he is able and powerful to keep me in his kingdom of righteousness,love,joy and peace and preserve my soul from destruction and ruin. My ROCK on whom i am buildin my house so that when storms come i'll be rooted deep in Him and his love and stand and persevere to the end.

The bible warns us christians so many times about the dangers of continually living in sin and disobeying God. I fear God and i 'fear' to sin, i know that salvation is by free grace alone but on the same time i know that the devil is smart and cunning and wants to fool us about false assurance and make us think it's ok when it isnt.

Faith is a journey with God, we have to press forward to heaven and not backward to the city of distruction.We dont gain salvation by every bit of good word we do but if we truly are elected then let us make our election sure by obeying God's word and not just talk and emphasis so much faith as to neglect the obedience that God demands from His sons and daughters.Let us work out our salvation by fear and trembling.

Run the race!! and press forward to perfection and let us aim to be complete in Him and wholy sanctified spirit, soul, and body. And shine, shine, shine for Jesus that people may see the LIGHT of God in us & through us and come to salvation to the praise and the glory of God.

Christinyou wrote:
Works without faith are dead, and that faith must be the faith of the Son of God to be works treasured up in heaven.

[color=993300]Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.[/color]

Born of God. [color=993300]1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.[/color]

In Him, Praise God we cannot sin for Christ is not the minister of sin.

The flesh can still sin, but we have an Advocate with the Father, [color=993300]"If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleans us from all unrighteousness."

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[/color]

In Christ: Phillip

Philip,

Once Saved, Always Saved is to me a matter of poor doctrinal teaching, not because Christ cannot and will not hang on to us, but that we can, and are able to turn away from Christ.

For it is not Jesus's faith that saves us, but His action in dying on the cross for us, and our faith - our continuing faith in Him.

All along I have wanted people not to be hung up on this tag, 'Once Saved, Always Saved' that is so comforting to those that sin their way into hell, despite how long they walked with Jesus once.

And now, interestingly, you bring up faith.

Once, a while back I recalled we were discussing faith, and I looked around in the archives to see what I had said, and what you had said in regard to saving faith.

I said:

My question would lean more to whether, since Jesus lives in me, does not His Faith, as in Godlike Faith, also live in me?

And if so, will not His Faith trump my poor faith as I lay gasping on the narrow path?

And you answered as followed:

Compliments wrote:

This is Christwards and Sonlike faith, but it is not, I think, Christ’ faith instead of Paul’s faith.

I am having difficulty receiving that it's not "Christs' faith" that Paul is now living by.

It is without doubt that Paul reached perfection, and Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith.

There is an end to our faith, to which it carries us thru the trials and temptations to where Christ is fully grown up inside of us. The SEED was not meant to sit in our lives and not grow, that SEED is Christ.

[color=993300]1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.[/color]

He that endures to the end the same shall be saved, that end is your faith, not the end of the world, as our carnal minds think.

When Christ has become grown in us, then comes to past which was spoken of in Habakkuk:

[color=993300]Habakkuk 2:4..... the just shall live by his faith.

It's no longer I that liveth.

[/color]

Phillip, are you saying now that we cannot turn away from Jesus under any circustance? Or that one can fall away, repent, and be forgiven, so long as we have not strayed too far?

Or will you fall back on that tired response again that one cannot possibly haved been saved if you fall away, when there are instructions in the Bible on how NOT to fall away?

Oddly, my purpose in starting this thread was to try and pound it into some thick heads that bad, deceptive teaching of the OSAS doctrine can lead people to stray if they are not taught at the same time, Once Faithing, Always Faithing.

[color=993300]"[b]Believe[/b] on the Lord your God"[/color]

[color=0000FF]Strong's Ref. # 4100

Romanized pisteuo
Pronounced pist-yoo'-o

from GSN4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):

KJV--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Topics: Faith
ELWELLS THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY

Text: Noun corresponding to the verb "believe," for which the Hebrew is heemin, the hiphil form of aman, and the Greek (LXX and NT) pisteuo. The latter is a key word in the NT, being the term regularly used to denote the many-sided religious relationship into which the gospel calls men and women, that of trust in God through Christ. The complexity of this idea is reflected in the variety of constructions used with the verb (a hoti clause, or accusative and infinitive, expressing truth believed; en and epi with the dative, denoting restful reliance on that to which, or him to whom, credit is given; eis and, occasionally, epi with the accusative, the most common, characteristic, and original NT usage, scarcely present in the LXX and not at all in classical Greek, conveying the thought of a movement of trust going out to, and laying hold of, the object of its confidence). The Hebrew noun corresponding to aman (emuna, rendered pistis in the LXX), regularly denotes faithfulness in the sense of trustworthiness,
and pistis occasionally bears this sense in the NT (Rom. 3:3, of God; Matt. 23:23; Gal. 5:22; Titus 2:10, of man). The word emuna normally refers to the faithfulness of God, and only in Hab. 2:4 is it used to signify man's religious response to God. There, however, the contrast in the context between the temper of the righteous and the proud self-sufficiency of the Chaldeans seems to demand for it a broader sense than "faithfulness" alone, the sense, namely, of self-renouncing, trustful reliance upon God, the attitude of heart of which faithfulness in life is the natural expression. This is certainly the sense in which the apostolic writers quote the text (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11; Heb. 10:38), and the sense which pistis, like pisteuo, regularly carries in the NT, where both words are used virtually as technical terms (John preferring the verb, Paul the noun) to express the complex thought of unqualified acceptance of, and exclusive dependence on,
the mediation of the Son as alone securing the mercy of the Father. Both normally bear this whole weight of meaning, whether their grammatical object is God, Christ, the gospel, a truth, a promise, or is not expressed at all. Both signify commitment as following from conviction, even in contexts where faith is defined in terms of the latter only (e.g., compare Heb. 11:1 with the rest of the chapter). The nature of faith, according to the NT, is to live by the truth it receives; faith, resting on God's promise, gives thanks for God's grace by working for God's glory.

Some occasional contractions of this broad idea should be noticed:

(1) James, alone of NT writers, uses both noun and verb to denote bare intellectual assent to truth (James 2:14-26). But here he is explicitly mimicking the usage of those whom he seeks to correct, Jewish converts, who may well have inherited their notion of faith from contemporary Jewish sources, and there is no reason to suppose that this usage was normal or natural to him (his reference to faith in 5:15, e.g., clearly carries a fuller meaning). In any case the point he makes, namely, that a merely intellectual "faith," such as the demons have, is inadequate, is wholly in line with the rest of the NT. For example, when James says, "Faith without works is dead" (2:26), he is saying the same as Paul, who says in essence, "Faith without works is not faith at all, but its opposite" (cf. Gal. 5:6; 1 Tim. 5:8).

(2) Occasionally, by a natural transition, "the faith" denotes the body of truths believed (e.g., Jude 3; Rom. 1:5[?]; Gal. 1:23; 1 Tim. 4:1, 6). This became standard usage in the second century.

(3) From Christ himself derives a narrower use of "faith" for an exercise of trust which works miracles (Matt. 17:20-21; 1 Cor. 12:9; 13:2), or prompts the workings of miracles (Matt. 9: 28-29; 15:28; Acts 14:9). Saving faith is not always accompanied by "miracle-faith," however (1 Cor. 12:9); nor vice versa (cf. Matt. 7:22-23).

General Conception. Three points must be noted for the circumscribing of the biblical idea of faith:

Faith in God Involves Right Belief about God. The word "faith" in ordinary speech covers both credence of propositions ("beliefs") and confidence in persons or things. In the latter case some belief about the object trusted is the logical and psychological presupposition of the act of trust itself, for trust in a thing reflects a positive expectation about its behavior, and rational expectation is impossible if the thing's capacities for behavior are wholly unknown. Throughout the Bible trust in God is made to rest on belief of what he has revealed concerning his character and purposes. In the NT, where faith in God is defined as trust in Christ, the acknowledgment of Jesus as the expected Messiah and the incarnate Son of God is regarded as basic to it. The writers allow that faith in some form can exist where as yet information about Jesus is incomplete (Acts 19:1ff.),
but not where his divine identity and Christhood are consciously denied (1 John 2:22-23; II John 7-9); all that is possible then is idolatry (1 John 5:21), the worship of a manmade unreality. The frequency with which the epistles depict faith as knowing, believing, and obeying "the truth" (Titus 1:1; II Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:22, etc.) show that their authors regarded orthodoxy as faith's fundamental ingredient (cf. Gal. 1:8-9).

Faith Rests on Divine Testimony. Beliefs, as such, are convictions held on grounds, not of self-evidence, but of testimony. Whether particular beliefs should be treated as known certainties or doubtful opinions will depend on the worth of the testimony on which they are based. The Bible views faith's convictions as certainties and equates them with knowledge (1 John 3:2; 5:18-20, etc.), not because they spring from supposedly self-authenticating mystical experience, but because they rest on the testimony of a God who "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2) and is therefore utterly trustworthy. The testimony of Christ to heavenly things (John 3:11, 31-32), and of the prophets and apostles to Christ (Acts 10:39-43), is the testimony of God himself (1 John 5:9ff.); this God-inspired witness is God's own witness (cf. 1 Cor. 2:10-13; 1 Thess. 2:13), in such a sense that to receive it is to certify that God is true (John 3:33), and to reject it is to make God a liar (1 John 5:10).
Christian faith rests on the recognition of apostolic and biblical testimony as God's own testimony to his Son.

Faith Is a Supernatural Divine Gift. Sin and Satan have so blinded fallen men (Eph. 4:18; II Cor. 4:4) that they cannot discern dominical and apostolic witness to be God's word, nor "see" and comprehend the realities of which it speaks (John 3:3; 1 Cor. 2:14), nor "come" in selfrenouncing trust to Christ (John 6:44, 65), till the Holy Spirit has enlightened them (cf. II Cor. 4:6). Only the recipients of this divine "teaching," "drawing," and "anointing" come to Christ and abide in him (John 6:44-45; 1 John 2:20, 27). God is thus the author of all saving faith (Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29).

Biblical Presentation. Throughout Scripture, God's people live by faith; but the idea of faith develops as God's revelation of grace and truth, on which faith rests, enlarges. The OT variously defines faith as resting, trusting, and hoping in the Lord, cleaving to him, waiting for him, making him our shield and tower, taking refuge in him, etc. Psalmists and prophets, speaking in individual and national terms respectively, present faith as unwavering trust in God to save his servants from their foes and fulfill his declared purpose of blessing them. Isaiah, particularly, denounces reliance on human aid as inconsistent with such trust (Isa. 30:1-18, etc.). The NT regards the self-despairing hope, world-renouncing obedience, and heroic tenacity by which OT believers manifested their faith as a pattern which Christians must reproduce (Rom. 4:11-25; Heb. 10:39-12:2). Continuity is avowed here, but also novelty; for faith, receiving God's new utterance in the words and deeds of Christ (Heb. 1:1-2),
has become a knowledge of present salvation. Faith, so regarded, says Paul, first "came" with Christ (Gal. 3:23-25). The Gospels show Christ demanding trust in himself as bearing the messianic salvation. John is fullest on this, emphasizing (1) that faith ("believing on," "coming to," and "receiving" Christ) involves acknowledging Jesus, not merely as a God-sent teacher and miracle worker (this is insufficient, John 2:23-24), but as God incarnate (John 20:28), whose atoning death is the sole means of salvation (John 3:14-15; 6:51-58); (2) that faith in Christ secures present enjoyment of "eternal life" in fellowship with God (John 5:24; 17:3). The epistles echo this, and present faith in various further relationships. Paul shows that faith in Christ is the only way to a right relationship with God, which human works cannot gain (see Romans and Galatians); Hebrews and 1 Peter present faith as the dynamic of hope and endurance under persecution.

History of Discussion. The church grasped from the first that assent to apostolic testimony is the fundamental element in Christian faith; hence the concern of both sides in the Gnostic controversy to show that their tenets were genuinely apostolic. During the patristic period, however, the idea of faith was so narrowed that this assent came to be regarded as the whole of it. Four factors together caused this: (1) the insistence of the anti-Gnostic fathers, particularly Tertullian, that the faithful are those who believe "the faith" as stated in the "rule of faith" (regula fidei), i.e., the Creed; (2) the intellectualism of Clement and Origen, to whom pistis (assent on authority) was just an inferior substitute for, and stepping stone to, gnosis (demonstrative knowledge) of spiritual things; (3) the assimilation of biblical morality to Stoic moralism, an ethic not of grateful dependence but of resolute selfreliance; (4) the clothing of the biblical doctrine of communion with God in Neoplatonic dress,
which made it appear as a mystical ascent to the supersensible achieved by aspiring love, having no link with the ordinary exercise of faith at all. Also, since the doctrine of justification was not understood, the soteriological significance of faith was misconceived, and faith (understood as orthodox) was regarded simply as the passport to baptism (remitting all past sins) and to a lifelong probation in the church (giving the baptized opportunity to make themselves worthy of glory by their good works).

The scholastics refined this view. They reproduced the equation of faith with credence, distinguishing between fides informis ("unformed" faith, bare orthodoxy) and fides caritate formata (credence "formed" into a working principle by the supernatural addition to it of the distinct grace of love). Both sorts of faith, they held, are meritorious works, though the quality of merit attaching to the first is merely congruent (rendering divine reward fit, though not obligatory), and only the second gains condign merit (making divine reward due as a matter of justice). Roman Catholicism still formally identifies faith with credence, and has added a further refinement by distinguishing between "explict" faith (belief which knows its object) and "implicit" faith (uncomprehending assent to whatever it may be that the church holds).
Only the latter (which is evidently no more than a vote of confidence in the teaching church and may be held with complete ignorance of Christianity) is thought to be required of laymen for salvation. But a mere docile disposition of this sort is poles apart from the biblical concept of saving faith.

The Reformers restored biblical perspectives by insisting that faith is more than orthodoxy, not fides merely, but fiducia, personal trust and confidence in God's mercy through Christ; that it is not a meritorious work, one facet of human righteousness, but rather an appropriating instrument, an empty hand outstretched to receive the free gift of God's righteousness in Christ; that faith is God-given, and is itself the animating principle from which love and good works spontaneously spring; and that communion with God means, not an exotic rapture of mystical ecstasy, but just faith's everyday commerce with the Savior. Confessional Protestantism has always maintained these positions. In Arminianism there resides a tendency to depict faith as the human work upon which the pardon of sin is suspended, as, in fact, man's contribution to his own salvation. This would be in effect a Protestant revival of the doctrine of human merit.

Liberalism radically psychologized faith, reducing it to a sense of contented harmony with the Infinite through Christ (Schleiermacher), or a fixed resolve to follow Christ's teaching (Ritschl), or both together. Liberal influence is reflected in the now widespread supposition that "faith," understood as an optimistic confidence in the friendliness of the universe, divorced from any specific creedal tenets, is a distinctively religious state of mind. Neo-orthodox and existentialist theologians, reacting against this psychologism, stress the supernatural origin and character of faith. They describe it as an active commitment of mind and will, man's repeated "yes" to the repeated summons to decision issued by God's word in Christ; but the elusiveness of their account of the content of that word makes it hard sometimes to see what the believer is thought to say "yes" to.

Clearly, each theologian's view of the nature and saving significance of faith will depend on the views he holds of the Scriptures, and of God, man, and of their mutual relations. J. I. PACKER

Bibliography. E.D. Burton, Galatians; B.B. Warfield in HDB and Biblical and Theological Studies; G.H. Box in HDCG; J.G. Machen, What is Faith? B. Citron, New Birth; systematic theologies of C. Hodge (III, 41-113) and L. Berkhof (IV, viii: 493-509); D.M. Baillie, Faith in God; G.C
. Berkouwer, Faith and Justification; J. Hick, Faith and Knowledge; O. Becker and O. Michel, NIDNTT, II, 587ff.; A. Weiser, TDNT, VI, 174ff.; D.M. Emmet, Philosophy and Faith.[/color]

Jesus warned us Himself of what it would be like for us in the Parable of the Sower:

[color=993300]Matthew 13

1. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

Phillip,

I think you know I dislike quarreling, although I will stand up for what I believe in. We have mis-understood each other before, but always come to some conclusion we can both accept.

My difficulty with Once Saved, Always Saved is not that God will not keep us, depite our sin nature, and our inability to remain in righteousness except through Christ, but that the doctrine as taught leads many to believe that they can sin deliberately, maliciously, lascivously, and teach others to sin as well, and still be saved. I don't want Once Saved, Always Saved taught to babes in Christ, and I would like the sons of God to stand up and be counted about this. And Election is not something that any of us can know about until we are with Jesus, so I dislike the use of those verses on predestination by God being taught to new-borns, or used to explain the OSAS doctrine, much less have it be used by the evil one to mislead new caught fish.

Faith, belief, is an on-going action. But how many babes in Christ ever reach the teaching in Roman's these days, much less the other books of the Bible? Babies do as they are told, and the Devil has been in charge of the Church Corporate for a very long time.

Please, my brother, read and ponder all of this carefully, defending not a tag line about belief, but the minds of the helpless. For if we do not stand up for them, and no one else does either, they are already lost.

Blessings,

Forrest

UniqueWebRev wrote :

1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

This is the biblical and apostolic way to make our calling and election sure.

In his love Redi

I strongly recommend this sermon. It addresses most if not all of the questions and objections that have been raised about OSAS and the issue of continuing in the faith.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1988/636_The_Doctrine_of_Perseverance_The_Future_of_a_Fruitless_Field/

Observe, 1. The end, that is, the reward, The faith a Christian now lives in the faith of Jesus Christ. It is the salvation of our soul; of His soul eminently, but not exclusively, of body and soul both. The complete salvation of soul and body both with Christ in heaven, shall be the end and reward of the believer's faith.

The diligent search into the faith we have received and the enquiry after, the nature of this salvation, which was searched for and made to be by the prophets of the Old Testament: Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently; that is, by prayer, meditation, and study, they searched after the farther and clearer knowledge of this great salvation, and the kingdom of the Messiah, when should be the time of his sufferings and humiliation, which were to precede his glory and exaltation that would make Him the whole of our salvation and exchanged life by regeneration and new birth.

The success of this, their enquiry and search: they were answered by God, and received this revelation from Him, that they themselves were not the men that should see the Messiah, and His special kingdom; That is the Body of Christ the Church and His Glory of birth in the believer, that is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory," Col 1:27 and that the things which they prophesied of, were not to be fulfilled in their own times, even the promise to Abraham of the Seed, but in after-times; and accordingly the things foretold by the prophets, he assures them, were clearly manifested to them by the apostles and prophets who were endowed with an extraordinary measure of the Holy Spirit, the answered prayer of Christ to the Father, sent down upon them at the day of Pentecost: Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us, they did minister the things now reported unto you.
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Observe, lastly, The sublimity and transcendant excellency of those gospel mysteries which are now revealed; they are so ravishing and transporting, that the holy angels desire to pry into them: Which things the angels desire to look into. The mystery revealed to Paul:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Learn thence, That the glorious mystery of man's redemption and salvation, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", by the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, is an object worthy of the adoring angels. They admire the person of the Redeemer, they admire the author and contriver of the work of our redeeming savior that is now birthed in us and who is now our life our all in all, they admire the born again subjects redeemed, they admire the manner and method of our redemption, they admire the finally glorious state which the redeemed are brought into, that is the presence of God by the Christ in us, seated in heavenly places in Him and possessed of Him in new life. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. The angles, they pry into these things, as the cherubims looked upon the ark, with a curious and accurate inspection, with an earnest and affectionate inspection; they holily admire the wisdom of this glorious contrivance of God before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, and "according to the good pleasure of His will," though even the angels with their raised and enlarged capacities can never be able fully to comprehend it.

Do even we fully comprehend it? Ephesians 3:16-21 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith".
This is the faith given us by God when He birthed His Son in each believer. 1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you. Even Christ Himself.

Our faith is as the flower and the grass, which falleth away, It must be the Faith of Christ to reveal these heavenly thing in us for His word and faith endureth forever and so our faith also by Him. Born again of the Spirit and water. in 1 verse, shown below: this is the only appearance of these words.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This is our water washing by the Word Himself and our new birth and life by the Spirit of Christ that is our.

The beginning and end of this post: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 1:13-16 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Finally: 1 Peter 1:20-22 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Not my faith in God but God's faith in me by the Christ faith that is in me through birth of my Father God. 1Pe 1:21 Who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. God is my hope and God is my faith by the Christ in me.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Not Pauls faith.

Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip,

"""I think you know I dislike quarreling, although I will stand up for what I believe in. We have mis-understood each other before, but always come to some conclusion we can both accept.

My difficulty with Once Saved, Always Saved is not that God will not keep us, depite our sin nature, and our inability to remain in righteousness except through Christ, but that the doctrine as taught leads many to believe that they can sin deliberately, maliciously, lascivously, and teach others to sin as well, and still be saved. I don't want Once Saved, Always Saved taught to babes in Christ, and I would like the sons of God to stand up and be counted about this. And Election is not something that any of us can know about until we are with Jesus, so I dislike the use of those verses on predestination by God being taught to new-borns, or used to explain the OSAS doctrine, much less have it be used by the evil one to mislead new caught fish."""

I don't want to cause conflict either. New born babes in Christ are run away from the Church more often by Law then them not being able to loose their salvation. Law is so much a part of every believers life that Grace and Faith are a complete foreign idea. If we are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves, then Grace Faith are not of ourselves. If we are saved by Grace by Faith then I would agree that we could loose our salvation, because it would be by grace through my faith. Since it is not by faith I am saved but through faith, that faith must be the faith of the Son of God.

Loosing ones salvation is the epitome and most vicious lie of Satan which he has always used of the Law, Satan is a law salvation loosing preacher and if lost cannot be renewed to repentance.

I hate organized religion with a passion, for it has taken those that are Christs' and sent them down a works salvation that no one can accomplish. If I am a born again Christian then it is not my faith that gave birth to the Seed (Christ in me) by my faith, the the birth of The Son of God in me by the Faith of the Son of God. Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

The Faith of Christ has made us righteousness and justified, that is "made" by God to us.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We cannot fall away for Christ will not loose any that have been given to Him.

But if it were possible to fall away there would be no repentance available for they would crucify to themselves again and no salvation would be available just like those that are not His in the First place.

1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

"believed in vain"

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved

I don't believe Eternal Security spawns the freedom to sin, but the Freedom to love a God who has given us eternal salvation in His Son by placing Him in each of us that the Father has given to Him. Knowing so great salvation and forgiveness sets us free. Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. We walk in the Spirit not in the flesh.

In Christ: Phillip

It is interesting that you bring up what Calvin did in Geneva. Two main points that we must look at in the history of that city are that until the Church became central in the society there, women had few rights if any, and the poor were uncared for. This changed as the Christians of Geneva believing that a sovereign God had placed them there to impact their society began to really practice what they were being taught by men like John Calvin.

Men like John Knox, and other Reformers were forced to flee to Geneva because of the anti Protestant government in England and Scotland thus many godly men and women were drawn to Geneva as a safe haven. The result of this was the Geneva Bible, and also John Knox became grounded in the theological beliefs that would shake Scotland not long after his return.

Calvin and the Reformed Church of Geneva were one of the first to send out missionaries. Two men were sent to Brazil ultimatley dying there prior to an agreement between the Portugese government and the Roman catholic Church to "christianize" Brazil. One must understand that in these times it was near impossible to get ships for missionaries as the countries that had ships were Roman Catholic, and would not approve of Protestant missionaries.

As for the death of Michael Servetus, Calvin had very little to do with his death. People falsely assume that Calvin killed him, but the Genevan magistrates were the ones who issued the sentence. The Roman Catholic Church had already issued a decree for his death as a heretic as well.

Perhaps if you are interested, you could read this chapter of a wonderful book called, "Puritan Reformed Spirituality"

[url=http://www.hnrc.org/files/CalvinTeacherOfEvangelism.pdf]Calvin Teacher of Envangelism[/url]

Or even this aricle on Calvin's view of piety

[url=http://www.hnrc.org/files/CalvinOnPiety.pdf]Calvin On Piety[/url]

Also, I do not believe what I believe because John Calvin says it is true. I do not even wish to be labeled a "Calvinist". I am a Christian who belives the Biblical view of man, of salvation, and of God. If these things make me a Calvinist, then I suppose I am, but first and foremost, I am a Christian.

One last point. Calvin was not the only voice of the Protestants at this time. Luther was around, Zwingli was also active, as was William Tyndale etc. Amazingly, though they differed on the issues of sacraments, they all agreed to the depravity of man, and the sovereignty of God in salvation.

I do not expect you to, but lovingly ask that you give a listen to at least a couple of these messages, thus you could make a more educated argument. I used to believe all the things I heard about "wicked" John Calvin, and the Calvinists until I took time to investigate their views with my Bible in tow.

[url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/histtheocalvin.html]History And Theology Of Calvinism[/url]

If you cannot listen to these, here is the printed form of the notes

[url=http://www.gracemessenger.org/files/Daniel_Curt_History_and_Theology_of_Calvinism.pdf]History And Theology Of Calvinism PDF[/url]

Every blessing to you in our wondrous and sovereign Lord :-D

Yes Calvin taught that apart from union with Christ, one could not live as God has commanded. The article I posted on Calvin and piety talks about this.

Now as for the other apsect of the political views of the Puritans and other Reformed folks, their view of man was what led them to believe that unsaved men should not dictate laws, or preside over governments. They believed that God's sovereignty did not stop at the Curch doors, but spread into all of the believers life. The aim was to get out from under the RomanCatholic rule, and thus they were very politically motivated in some periods of time. Unfortunately due to the rise of Arminianism, and Humanism, we no longer see the concern for the state of unregenerate men in office, and lend some credibility to what unsaved men have to say about issues of faith, just look at how the primaries are panning out.

If someone were to put me in a corner about my beliefs, I would have to say I am more like the Anabaptists, and the London Baptist Confession of 1647, as I see a need to separate Chruch and State, that is until we had genuine Christians in office ;-)

There are many many issues that go into where we are today, many are painful to deal with like the involvement of the Roman Catholic Church and the Council of Trent. This alone has undermined so much of what was accomplished in the Reformation, as was its purpose, but Protestants today have no idea what it says, or why it was written, or that in Vatican 2 it was still upheld.

I apologize for any offense, I meant none whatsoever.

What does matter is, does scripture teach the crucified life? The meaning of this doctrine specifically, That is the death on the Cross with Christ and the birthing of the Seed of the Father in the Believer, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

I am not a Once Saved Always Saved advocate either, but I do believe in the Eternal Security of The Christ that is birthed in me and the keeping by Christ of those that The Father gives Him. I don't see a child jumping out of the mother's womb on his own, why would he want to? Think about suicide, these are in dispair in even thinking about it. We are Christs' and Christ is ours, why would anyone want to jump out of His hands? Even unto death Christ did not jump out of God's hands for us and He is still doing the same for us in our salvation. If you think that God will ever let you go, I feel sorry for those that believe they can loose their salvation, there is certainly no peace or Rest in that theology.

Hbr 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Hbr 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

He will never leave us and like Him our souls and bodies will not suffer corruption in the grave, for the quickening of Christ's resurrection is still there and also in us.

Psa 119:50 This [is] my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Psa 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

You are quickened in Christ, not Calvin or OSAS, but only in Christ.

Saved: Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Not Saved: Eze 26:21 I will make thee a terror, and thou [shalt be] no [more]: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

No jumping out of salvation here, Only God and His complete sovereignty's.

In Christ, eternally secure: Phillip

Dear Friends & Brothers & Sisters,

Greetings in Jesus' name!

Leonard Ravenhill said once that "One of these days some simple fellow will read the word of God and believe it, then all the rest of us will stand amazed at what God does with that man" (Or something to that effect)

It is appearant that many doctrines, including Hyper-Calvinism, and Strict Armineanism, are based largely off of "proof" texts.

When we read our Bibles, do we read them for doctrine's sake, or for Food, Life, Light, and the Glory of God? Yes, all scripture is given... etc...

But let's get down to it-- We often skim over much of the context, and sometimes even "brush" off verses that are clearly in God's Word.

i myself would be considered more of an Arminean when it comes to eternal security, and pre-destination. But i do not brush aside the verses that talk about being predestinated (As in Ephesians for ex.) and so on. But the thing that puts the quandery into my mind so often, is that we as Christians use the Bible in wrong ways, as in JUST for doctrine, JUST for reprove, or JUST for so on and so forth... i don't know that anybody is doing that here, but let's examine ourselves and our motives before God.

The reason for posting the quote by Ravenhill is that when it comes to Docrtine, we should mingle it with the practical workings of faith when we make a dogmatic statement about a belief or somthing like that.

For example let's take Hyper-Calvinism. (PREFACE: this is simply my understanding of a Hyper Calvinist- if you consider yourself one, and this does not descibe your belief, please forgive me, as there are many different definitions out there and i'm just going off of my understading of the definition i have :). And when i say "Hyper" i mean extreme...) A Hyper-Calvinist would say that since people are already predestined to either heaven or hell, there is no reason to preach the Gospel to all the nations, because they will get there one way or another.

Now, examine what we heard there, and look at scripture. On a strictly doctrinal scense, he could be right, because of what we see in the verses about predestination. But if you look at the "practical" scriptures, Christ said "Go ye into all the world..." GO, why? Another: "How shall they believe on Him whome they have not heard..." etc.

So with our example (and that is all it is, it is not all-inclusive, so pray about the less-extreme doctrines we may hold and put them to the same test) we see that Doctrinal scriptures cannot just be balanced with doctrinal scriptures, but also "practical" ones... if you get what i mean.

God bless you all as you seek out this issue-- May God give us wisdom to rightly divide the Word of Truth...

In Christ,
-nathan

PS- i do believe in eternal security- you walk with God, you're secure- if you turn your back away from God and cintinue in sin, you're not... just figured i'd clarify that. Thanks! 8-)

After all this wonderful discussion and display of scripture, I would like to get back to one particular point.

If we are Elect, we will not know it until our salvation is assured, either through a walk so holy and divinely inspired, so full of fruit of the Spirit that one simply knows that Christ is in him, and he is in Christ, or when we are with Christ, and past the travail of this life.

For it is travail, and we all of us, no matter our view on the extent of Pre-Destination, are working to walk out our walk in faith, and show ourselves approved of God.

Did we start there? Did we know how long and how hard a walk it would be, even knowing that Christ was living inside us?

Please, look again at the explanation of the Parable of the Sower, as laid out by the One who knew.

[color=993300]Matthew 13:18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.[/color]

This seed is dead before it hits the hearer, for the devil makes sure that it is never really heard.

[color=993300] 20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.[/color]

This seed begins rightly, but cannot get past the hard parts of the Christian life.

[color=993300] 22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.[/color]

This seed begins rightly as well, but the cares of this world and the lies of the Evil One overrun it.

[color=993300] 23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

Ah yes, the Elect. But did they start that way?

I didn't.

When I look back at my life, I seem to have passed through all four sowings.

For those of you that don't know me, I was brought up in a household without faith, and without observance, and with an extreme distrust of God and the Church - RCC Mom & Protestant Dad.

The first sowing was snatched away by the devil...he used a Sunday School Teacher to indoctrinate me with the idea that perfection was needed to get into heaven. I came away without any knowledge of God except a memory of a blackboard covered in colored chalk representing a child's eye view of Hell, and a tendency towards perfectionism.

Fortunately, no one told me OSAS. I wouldn't have believed them.

My second sowing brought about a baptism, but the devil used a tongue-talkin' church to scare me into believing that they, the church, were evil, for in my 15 year old simplicity, I understood I wanted Jesus, but the tongue-talkin' church forgot to tell me about tongue-talkin', or that I was supposed to come out of the baptismal pool speaking in tongues.

No one told me OSAS. I woudn't have wanted to hear it. All I wanted was to get away from that church as fast as I could.

I got finely tricked by the devil, and went into the Occult. I became an expert at divination, with Tarot Cards, and Palm Reading. And I was good enough to scare people, and make money at it.

I got mad once at someone making fun of my abilities, got a deck of cards, and sorted them, red and black. The odds on doing that are about 30 million to one. I had a friendly demon helping me out. And yes, I scared the people who made fun of me. They shut up, and my boyfriend kept on bragging on my abilities! Gee, what nice friends I had. Thank God I didn't know about OSAS!

I slid into promiscuity like I was coming home.

And my parents were fine with all of this, so long as I got a good education, kept a good reputation to protect the family, and was a success!

So I did that too. The love of money...oh, isn't it so nice to have, and all that?

But you know, the baptism held. I had meant what I said, and Jesus was walking around with me, stuffing in a little unorthodox word here and there along with the classics, and psychology, and I got the real comparative religion along with fairly balanced history and literature because I started college in 1972. The hippies weren't professors and politicians yet.

They are now, and you can't get anything good taught you except at home, that is, if your parents care, and then can send you to a good Christian University.

And when I was 23, I met a guy named Dr. Gene Scott, of recent memory. Yeah, a weird guy, but a very sound scholar. Since he died last year, everyone is using his stuff. Hearing him teach on Romans gave me an education beyond price. His three different sermons on Psalm 84 are a blessing to watch, even if I do have to watch him change ages.

I skipped his playful UFO/British Israelite/Pyramids/Occult/Weird Religions stuff because I already knew as much as he did about that stuff, and maybe more. I didn't care that he said 'damn' and 'hell' since he never blasphemed, not that I would have known or cared! And since I smoked, and drank, I didn't object to him doing so.

Oh, and he taught Pre-Destination and the Perseverance of the Saints at the same time. No, not Calvinism and Armenianism. Just Pre-Destination and Perseverance...hand in hand, until death. Doc Scott taught faith, but he also taught tithing, and about the fruit of the spirit we must show, or be fakers. And he never once said anything about OSAS.

Life engulfed me, and the Word slipped away, and I was caught in the world. But I had God, even if I didn't like His Son's Name, and more scholarship than I knew what to do with. So, in between making money, and partying, I studied some more. And from time to time, I'd be back watching Doc Scott on the satellite because when he talked about God, I understood him. And I drank in years of his teaching, reading his booklist, and studying to see if what he said was really in the Bible. And I learned, right down to the little Greek and Hebrew Squigglies.

I'd been in a Sorority - I knew the Greek Alphabet. I studied Classics - got a bit more there. Hebrew...well, I at least know what a Yod is.

I always did have a scholarly nature. You should have seen my Occult library! And my Antique Tarot Cards! And if I'd really been into spell casting and demonology, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. But I knew enough about what I was doing to be scared of that. And that means I was in very deep.

And somewhere along the way I got real tired of the life I was living. And even though I was studying Zen on the side, I talked occasionally to God.

I got married and I was happy. Worldly, but happy. I stopped giving Tarot readings...not enough time. Oh, and I still managed to catch a fair amount of Doc Scott. I didn't bother sleeping. He was more interesting. And the more stressed out I got, the more I asked God for peace of mind and comfort of spirit, since I actually knew what that meant. Oh, and I finally asked it in Jesus' name too.

Uh oh, that car crash! Bye Bye career, and self, and husband, and sanity, and the ability to move without pain, or live without heavy duty meds. And I even have a high pain threshold!

Hello Peggy Thelan, a psychologist who happened to be a good Christian.

I got my 4th and final sowing along with the counseling to cope with the devastation of my life, the brain damage and the neurological damage you get from breaking your neck in a ditch.

But you know, she didn't tell me OSAS either, so when I collapsed after my husband left me, and hit bottom, hating what I had become, and all that I had lost, I reached out for Jesus. And I hated calling Him that, but eventually got used to all the Christianese. I never went to a church, so I never heard OSAS either.

And I finally fell in love. I was 42. I'm at the obsession point now, 10 years later. I've actually asked Him to use me however He would...that was wierd. He replied.

I don't mind being broken all that much, either, since I know if I was entirely fixed I'd be back out in that world, soaking in success, and sinning away. Because I don't know how to live in the world any other way.

And I'm covered in Christians, because my ministry is to the fallen away relations of church goers. So I meet them everywhere. I have fellowship everywhere, and pass out a few cards. And God's little website that I run for Him...people keep finding it, and more of them show up each week. They're actually starting to send some of what I write to others!

I don't set foot in a church except for Weddings and Funerals. I'm a woman, and I'm not allowed to rebuke the outrageous Pastors that are out there.

I have church wherever I go, because, being disabled, God puts the people He wants me to see in my way.

Well, that's all very nice for me.

But my dad's only been saved a year, and won't even open a Bible yet. It's fun watching the Holy Spirit teach him, because I'm not allowed to. I'm his daughter, even though I am an evangelist and teacher.

So, knowing that OSAS would have been deadly for me to hear, do you think I should tell my Dad?

I know that Election is only sure when you are dead, for I get attacked a lot by the devil, and it would be very easy to turn around in the path. Sin is very attractive when you've been away from it for a long time, and forget how deadly dull it is after a while.

No, I don't want to hurt Jesus, and I enjoy living in peace, and yes, I believe in Hell, and if it's hard for me, how much harder is it for a fresh caught fish in the hands of the modern Christian Church?

So, how many of you want me to start telling people OSAS?

When would it have been good for me to hear it?

I don't dare believe it now, much as I'd like to. Because I'm really good at sinning. Lucifer cried when I rededicated my life to Jesus.

So, if it's not safe for a reasonably well taught, walking the walk Christian to know, why are we telling anyone about it?

I know that grace is there for the sins of my bodily nature. But what about the deliberate ones I really would like to commit, because they're fun, or useful, or might be if I got mad, and had one of my guns handy around a politician...or a reporter!

Uh, Uh! No way! I know I have to watch my walk every day, and so do all of you, and those that say otherwise are lying to themselves.

Yes, I know that God knows who is saved, and will make it to the end in Christ, but none of us know that. From what I see, I'm probably there, but I don't know, not for sure, not enough to bet my salvation on it. What if I fail at the last moment during persecution? After all, it's coming soon to a city near you, and I'm not quiet about being a Christian.

I don't mind jail. I expect it will come to that even in America before I die or am raptured. And death? No problem, I'd love to go Home now, but I wander how well I'd face getting there the hard way?

So, any of you want to bet your salvation on OSAS?

Or teach someone else to?

In Christ,

Forrest

P.S. And for those that care, I got rid of the Antique Tarot Cards and the Occult Library when I asked the Holy Spirit for the gift of tongues. I don't use it much...only when I'm prompted to, but the gift is there, along with others that God uses from time to time.

Katy,

I am not talking about what Jesus does for us.

We don't have anything without Him.

But to receive salvation, we must believe in Him.

The Election that men speak of is not handed out with the seed that is sown, but when it is received. And the Election that is given out is not necessarily to each one who says they believe.

Please, read the whole post, and do not fasten on any one part of it.

This is not a standard scriptural defense of opinion, but a complete statement in commentary for the specific purpose of the end concusion.

Please, think of this as only as an undefended thesis, and answer to the whole, or I will have wasted hours writing my post.

I am not debating Election, nor do I mean to seem to. I am talking about perception by the one who is initially saved, not their status in God's eyes.

Blessings,

Forrest

Sister,

I have to be honest. You seem to have a very healthy ( and scripturally solid ) idea of what you and we all are capable of apart from Christ. I respectfully suggest that you are lacking, as we all are, in a full understanding of the surpassing strength of Christ to save us to the uttermost and His power and promise not to allow anything or anyone to separate us from His love and Himself. You are His sheep and His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. Those who have come to Him will be raised up on the last day. Is our faith tested under trial, sometimes severe? Yes. Will He let us finally fall away? As Charles Spurgeon said, Never, Never, Never. I don't know if OSAS is the same as the doctrine of perseverence of the saints. The concept of cheap grace ( do what you want if you are a Christian ) is not part of the true doctrine of perseverence of the saints.

hmmhmm wrote:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Being an overcomer is a message almost missing in evangelical churches today.Despite the theological bias (calvinist, arminian or whatever), i think there is a subtle deception creeping in unaware in evangelical believers.Sincerity is not enough to protect us from the subtle lies the devils may 'whisper' to the 'ear' of the naive and the spiritually dull.

The devil has a great knowledge about the bible when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness it was through the scriptures that he tried to deceive the Son of God but failed, the Lord masterfully wilded the Sword of God and gave the enemy a blow.

It doesnt bother me much if somebody beliefs and convictions have some nonessantial errors about doctrines of scriptures like electionn justification, salvation or true perseverance of saints ect.What i am afraid is when believers read the bible to find support for their personal convictions, or they have already their prejudgements formed in their mind and they try hard to conform their strong opinions from the Bible without any spiritual enlightment or approvement from the Spirit.

When christians dont keep their hearts tender and open before God so that He can instruct them and correct their falls and erronous theological beliefs but fall pray of the opinion of others or traditionalism, or read the Bible through the glasses of somebody else. Tozer was fond of saying," I refuse to allow any man to put his glases on me and force me to see everything in his light." Unless we conform with the scripture our convictions and are not only sincere but conscience that our beliefs have not only a strong support from the word of God but the Holy Spirit has enlighten you in such a way a to cast out any doubt, you will not be deceived by the devil.

I'm afraid that most of our convictions are formed not from the Holy Spirit by from pastors and theologians and that particular tradition we come from.I belief that somebody who has once been saved from his past sins can be in great danger if they fall from grace. God warning in Rev. 3:5 are for the church and not for the world.If we are not overcomers in Christ but lovers of the world or spiritually blind and lukewarm we are treading a forbiden ground better take heed the warnings of God and escape the danger and listen the voice of the Spirit.

I want to walk according to the light God has revealed to me from his Word and the Holy Spirit.
Our Teacher here is the Holy Spirit, it is he who is our best interpreter of the scriptures and the One who anoints us inwardly to understand the truths from the bible. But alas, that last thing many of us do is to be dependant on Him for new fresh insights from God's word.

I'm aware that many saints of God throughout the centuries have had some theological errours, some were even branded as 'heretics' by the majority in the church, but one day in heaven we shall be surprized to find many of those that we thoughts damned to be in heaven and many that we thought saved damned in hell with all their 'dead orthodoxy'.

The devil has done a great achievement in planting a 'pharisaic christianity' in our midts that shines with all the damned "glory" of the fallen angel of light.As long as we are preocupied with theological systems and strugle to keep ourself deeply orthodox in our brains but far from experimental knowledge of God, i think the devil will not worry much about us.Let a christian thirst and yearn for experimental knowledge of the Holy and let him mount up in the narrow path of holinness and the devil will show him his teeth and resistance. He is a great loser when he faces an OVERCOMER and spiritual warrior who anticipates by prayer every surprise of the Evil One.

How many of us sleep on the 'soft bed' of unexperimental doctrines God knows, if we have some spiritual discerments from God, i wander how many shipwrecks we will see as we sail through the seas on our way to the 'haven' of heaven?

One thing i know that every true child of God who knows personally the Lord and has a faith that works by LOVE is secure under the wing of the Almighty.He is able to keep us from falling away who love the truth and hate the works of darkness and preserve us to the end, to the praise of his glory.

Thanks Katy-did for sharing your poem it was an encouragement for me , reminding ourselves of the beginning of our faith it's a good thing because we remember the works of God in our heart and life and the change his grace did in us.

You wrote:
All fear leaves this love,
A peace now does land,
My heart Fixed on Jesus,
I REST in His Hand.

Very true, His perfect love cast out the fear in us. I love the 1 Corinthians 13 it's the hymn of love, of that devine love that never fails.

"Love is patient, love is kind.it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not dilight in evil but rejoices in truth.It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." 1cor 13:4-7

God is Love

John Wesley wrote a inspiring poem, sometimes when i here it sang with some godly music it touches me profoundly.

Let Me See Thy Face and Die

To Thee, great God of love! I bow,
And prostrate in Thy sight adore;
By faith I see Thee passing now;
I have, but still I ask for more,
A glimpse of love cannot suffice,
My soul for all Thy presence cries.
I cannot see Thy face, and live,
Then let me see Thy face, and die!

Moses Thy backward parts might view,
But not a perfect sight obtain;
The gospel doth Thy fulness show
To us, by the commandment slain;
The dead to sin shall find the grace
The pure in heart shall see Thy face.
I cannot see Thy face, and live,
Then let me see Thy face, and die!

Surrounded by the saints of old,
We now by faith approach to Thee
Shall all with open face behold
In Christ the glorious Deity;
Shall see, and put the Godhead on,
The nature of Thy sinless Son.
I cannot see Thy face, and live,
Then let me see Thy face, and die!

That's worship

O God let this love burn in our hearts and make it light our darkness and may it kindle our spirits to worship YOU in total forgetfulness of everything except YOU.Let our souls be still and adore Thee the GREAT I AM.

Sis wrote:

Remember the Ark of the covenant? What was on top? Answer: The Mercy Seat!!! Yes even in the OT. Jesus Christ is our Mercy Seat, and with His own blood made the way once and for all. This is the GOOD NEWS we proclaim to a lost and dying world. Election is not about US, it's about Jesus Christ.

Now, no commentary is needed here...Scripture teaches Scripture. Salvation is of the Jews, it always has been, it always will be. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is grounded in the OT. There is no such thing as a "new" Gentile Gospel. Gentiles are partakers of the Covenant's" of promise. Ephesians.

Few recognize Christ in the OT. I always ask the question who is the Holy One of Jacob, yet no one answers...

Prov. 9:10 \t“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
\tAnd the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

UniqueWebRev wrote:
After all this wonderful discussion and display of scripture, I would like to get back to one particular point.

However Elect we may bee, we will not know it to be a fact until our salvation is assured, either through a walk so holy and divinely inspired, so full of fruit of the Spirit that one simply knows that Christ is in him, and he is in Christ, or when we are with Christ, and past the travail of this life, we will be with Him.

For it is travail, and we all of us, no matter our view on the extent of Pre-Destination, are working to walk out our walk in faith, and show ourselves approved of God.

Did we start there? Did we know how long and how hard a walk it would be, even knowing that Christ was living inside us?

Please, look again at the explanation of the Parable of the Sower, as laid out by the One who knew.

[color=993300]Matthew 13:18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.[/color]

This seed is dead before it hits the hearer, for the devil makes sure that it is never really heard.

[color=993300] 20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.[/color]

This seed begins rightly, but cannot get past the hard parts of the Christian life.

[color=993300] 22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.[/color]

This seed begins rightly as well, but the cares of this world and the lies of the Evil One overrun it.

[color=993300] 23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]

Ah yes, the Elect. But did they start that way?

I didn't.

When I look back at my life, I seem to have passed through all four sowings.

For those of you that don't know me, I was brought up in a household without faith, and without observance, and with an extreme distrust of God and the Church - RCC Mom & Protestant Dad.

The first sowing was snatched away by the devil...he used a Sunday School Teacher to indoctrinate me with the idea that perfection was needed to get into heaven. I came away without any knowledge of God except a memory of a blackboard covered in colored chalk representing a child's eye view of Hell, and a tendency towards perfectionism.

Fortunately, no one told me OSAS. I wouldn't have believed them.

My second sowing brought about a baptism, but the devil used a tongue-talkin' church to scare me into believing that they, the church, were evil, for in my 15 year old simplicity, I understood I wanted Jesus, but the tongue-talkin' church forgot to tell me about tongue-talkin', or that I was supposed to come out of the baptismal pool speaking in tongues.

No one told me OSAS. I woudn't have wanted to hear it. All I wanted was to get away from that church as fast as I could.

I got finely tricked by the devil, and went into the Occult. I became an expert at divination, with Tarot Cards, and Palm Reading. And I was good enough to scare people, and make money at it.

I got mad once at someone making fun of my abilities, got a deck of cards, and sorted them, red and black. The odds on doing that are about 30 million to one. I had a friendly demon helping me out. And yes, I scared the people who made fun of me. They shut up, and my boyfriend kept on bragging on my abilities! Gee, what nice friends I had. Thank God I didn't know about OSAS!

I slid into promiscuity like I was coming home.

And my parents were fine with all of this, so long as I got a good education, kept a good reputation to protect the family, and was a success!

So I did that too. The love of money...oh, isn't it so nice to have, and all that?

But you know, the baptism held. I had meant what I said, and Jesus was walking around with me, stuffing in a little unorthodox word here and there along with the classics, and psychology, and I got the real comparative religion along with fairly balanced history and literature because I started college in 1972. The hippies weren't professors and politicians yet.

They are now, and you can't get anything good taught you except at home, that is, if your parents care, and then can send you to a good Christian University.

And when I was 23, I met a guy named Dr. Gene Scott, of recent memory. Yeah, a weird guy, but a very sound scholar. Since he died last year, everyone is using his stuff. Hearing him teach on Romans gave me an education beyond price. His three different sermons on Psalm 84 are a blessing to watch, even if I do have to watch him change ages.

I skipped his playful UFO/British Israelite/Pyramids/Occult/Weird Religions stuff because I already knew as much as he did about that stuff, and maybe more. I didn't care that he said 'damn' and 'hell' since he never blasphemed, not that I would have known or cared! And since I smoked, and drank, I didn't object to him doing so.

Oh, and he taught Pre-Destination and the Perseverance of the Saints at the same time. No, not Calvinism and Armenianism. Just Pre-Destination and Perseverance...hand in hand, until death. Doc Scott taught faith, but he also taught tithing, and about the fruit of the spirit we must show, or be fakers. And he never once said anything about OSAS.

Life engulfed me, and the Word slipped away, and I was caught in the world. But I had God, even if I didn't like His Son's Name, and more scholarship than I knew what to do with. So, in between making money, and partying, I studied some more. And from time to time, I'd be back watching Doc Scott on the satellite because when he talked about God, I understood him. And I drank in years of his teaching, reading his booklist, and studying to see if what he said was really in the Bible. And I learned, right down to the little Greek and Hebrew Squigglies.

I'd been in a Sorority - I knew the Greek Alphabet. I studied Classics - got a bit more there. Hebrew...well, I at least know what a Yod is.

I always did have a scholarly nature. You should have seen my Occult library! And my Antique Tarot Cards! And if I'd really been into spell casting and demonology, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. But I knew enough about what I was doing to be scared of that. And that means I was in very deep.

And somewhere along the way I got real tired of the life I was living. And even though I was studying Zen on the side, I talked occasionally to God.

I got married and I was happy. Worldly, but happy. I stopped giving Tarot readings...not enough time. Oh, and I still managed to catch a fair amount of Doc Scott. I didn't bother sleeping. He was more interesting. And the more stressed out I got, the more I asked God for peace of mind and comfort of spirit, since I actually knew what that meant. Oh, and I finally asked it in Jesus' name too.

Uh oh, that car crash! Bye Bye career, and self, and husband, and sanity, and the ability to move without pain, or live without heavy duty meds. And I even have a high pain threshold!

Hello Peggy Thelan, a psychologist who happened to be a good Christian.

I got my 4th and final sowing along with the counseling to cope with the devastation of my life, the brain damage and the neurological damage you get from breaking your neck in a ditch.

But you know, she didn't tell me OSAS either, so when I collapsed after my husband left me, and hit bottom, hating what I had become, and all that I had lost, I reached out for Jesus. And I hated calling Him that, but eventually got used to all the Christianese. I never went to a church, so I never heard OSAS either.

And I finally fell in love. I was 42. I'm at the obsession point now, 10 years later. I've actually asked Him to use me however He would...that was wierd. He replied.

I don't mind being broken all that much, either, since I know if I was entirely fixed I'd be back out in that world, soaking in success, and sinning away. Because I don't know how to live in the world any other way.

And I'm covered in Christians, because my ministry is to the fallen away relations of church goers. So I meet them everywhere. I have fellowship everywhere, and pass out a few cards. And God's little website that I run for Him...people keep finding it, and more of them show up each week. They're actually starting to send some of what I write to others!

I don't set foot in a church except for Weddings and Funerals. I'm a woman, and I'm not allowed to rebuke the outrageous Pastors that are out there.

I have church wherever I go, because, being disabled, God puts the people He wants me to see in my way.

Well, that's all very nice for me.

But my dad's only been saved a year, and won't even open a Bible yet. It's fun watching the Holy Spirit teach him, because I'm not allowed to. I'm his daughter, even though I am an evangelist and teacher.

So, knowing that OSAS would have been deadly for me to hear, do you think I should tell my Dad?

I know that Election is only sure when you are dead, for I get attacked a lot by the devil, and it would be very easy to turn around in the path. Sin is very attractive when you've been away from it for a long time, and forget how deadly dull it is after a while.

No, I don't want to hurt Jesus, and I enjoy living in peace, and yes, I believe in Hell, and if it's hard for me, how much harder is it for a fresh caught fish in the hands of the modern Christian Church?

So, how many of you want me to start telling people OSAS?

When would it have been good for me to hear it?

I don't dare believe it now, much as I'd like to. Because I'm really good at sinning. Lucifer cried when I rededicated my life to Jesus.

So, if it's not safe for a reasonably well taught, walking the walk Christian to know, why are we telling anyone about it?

I know that grace is there for the sins of my bodily nature. But what about the deliberate ones I really would like to commit, because they're fun, or useful, or might be if I got mad, and had one of my guns handy around a politician...or a reporter!

Uh, Uh! No way! I know I have to watch my walk every day, and so do all of you, and those that say otherwise are lying to themselves.

Yes, I know that God knows who is saved, and will make it to the end in Christ, but none of us know that. From what I see, I'm probably there, but I don't know, not for sure, not enough to bet my salvation on it. What if I fail at the last moment during persecution? After all, it's coming soon to a city near you, and I'm not quiet about being a Christian.

I don't mind jail. I expect it will come to that even in America before I die or am raptured. And death? No problem, I'd love to go Home now, but I wander how well I'd face getting there the hard way?

So, any of you want to bet your salvation on OSAS?

Or teach someone else to?

In Christ,

Forrest

P.S. And for those that care, I got rid of the Antique Tarot Cards and the Occult Library when I asked the Holy Spirit for the gift of tongues. I don't use it much...only when I'm prompted to, but the gift is there, along with others that God uses from time to time.

Hmmm. I ask a simple question about OSAS 13 posts ago, and no one will answer it.

You are all so concerned with the fact or non-fact of Election that you are missing my point.

OSAS is not about ELection. It's not about what is true or even false.

OSAS is a trap set for the feet of the unwary, the new-born in Christ.

OSAS says that under no circumtances can you lose your relationship with God once the seed of faith is sown into your heart.

Part of the time I even believe it.

But what I have been asking all along is what the doctrine of OSAS, taught to a new-born believer, might do to their actual ability to refrain from falling away.

I go to the trouble of delineating having received all of the types of seed sowing into the heart, and DUE TO THE PERCEPTION OF THE NEW BELIEVER, can cause great harm by telling those babes in Christ that they can never lose their salvation when they, much less ourselves, do not even know if the seed was sown into good ground.

You are all doing a spendid job in avoiding the point of this thread, much less answering one post of mine without making the entire affair about the doctrine of Election.

And I am truly horrified by your lack of oncern for the new-born in Christ, who do not yet know if their 'ground' will endanger their salvation, or cause it to go awry.

And I am beginning to think many of you have a strange type of selective reading and response.

After all, most of you don't even address the questions at the end of the post, leading me to believe that you don't get past the first paragraph before thinking about how to get your favority doctrinal point across.

I pray that I am only seeing a habit of defense of your pet views, rather than a total disregaard of the point in question.

And the point in question runs in every post of my in this thread.

I am unconcerned if OSAS is true or not.

What bugs me is that many of you are happily telling OSAS to the most vulnerable of the newly saved, even whie knowing that the newborn's too early knowledge, and twisted perception of what God promises can be used against them by the Evil One.

I'm not shocked at the behavior I find here.

But I m truly disappointed that no one answers a post unless their answer can express their pet viepoints.

In His service,

Forrest

Sister "Forest" wrote:

I got my 4th and final sowing along with the counseling to cope with the devastation of my life, the brain damage and the neurological damage you get from breaking your neck in a ditch.