Stop it!!

I agree with you. It is one thing to point out everything that is wrong but another thing to bring back aberrant sheep. Yes, there are false churches and a general decline in Christianity. As long as the Holy Spirit still indwells the a church there is hope of restaurantion. In the seven letters to the churches in Revelation Jesus gave stern warnings to a number of them and was about to spew out the Laodicean church, yet there was still hope.

Rev 4: 9Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

There is still a promise to those in the Laodicean church who take the warning to "sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne."

This is a call to patience and grace. God will only leave a church when nothing works.

I believe the parable of the prodigal son speaks of a church who wants their inheritance NOW. The father gives it to the son who ends up eating with the swine. Great is the joy of the father when the renegate son comes back! Woe to the elder brother who cannot rejoice with the father over the returned prodigal.

I think maybe where the concern lies is in the "message" that is being spoken from the pulpits in many, not all, of today's churches.

Altho the Cross is spoken of, in the Sacrifice of Christ and the Grace and Freedom won through His obedience...There seems to be little or no teaching, preaching, sermons, or messages that speak of Sin and bringing us to a place of conviction.

David Wilkerson's sermon entitiled "The Capacity to be Stirred" (page 14), really brings that reality to light.

Fat, Dumb and Happy so sad but true.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Well put, Krispy! Some of these things need to be talked about. I think there is a big difference between the true Church and those who are just playing church.

Jordan

Amen!

i do think these things and issues need to be talked about, because if they are hushed, we will not have our guard out... But i hear what *EDIT* compliments is saying i think. We need to be careful not to "bash" but to dicuss, and learn. Let's be kindly affectioned one to another, and preach the truth in love, but also with the FIRE and ZEAL of GOD.

God bless!

(*EDIT* = i wrote the wrong name, but corected it... :))

Compliments wrote:

Maybe I am not explaining myself right. Let me go to the Word. Consider Daniels prayer, he didn't say "The church has sinned, THEY are in bad shape"
No, what he did say was, "WE have sinned". He included himself because he was apart of Israel.

Three years ago I walked away from a church because I was frustrated with the lack of growth in the people...three years have passed and I have found that I was the pharisee in Luke 18:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, “God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The way I see it now, at least for myself, a man that is justified will learn to love by following the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has not taken the lampstand from the church that I am attending then Jesus is still at work in the midst of the congregation.

In Christ
Jeff

I think the challenge is to feel the urgency of the times without allowing frustration to enter into our words opening the door to the enemy.

James 3:13-17

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

When the people placed the Ark on the Cart and rolled it towards the city a certain man named Uzzah reached up to steady it and was smote dead. Why? Perhaps he had become accustomed to putting his hand on that which was not his to touch? Was he in the habit of putting forth his hand upon it? Was not the ark in his fathers house many years? The ark should have been on the shoulders of the priests, but this man paid the price for trying to steady it when it went to and fro. I think it was his attitude of presumption towards God that got him killed.

I have been in circles where there is such hostility towards the Church that it is almost unreal. I have heard so-called Christians curse towards the church. Some so angry they refuse to darken the door of a church. Many that use the flip term 'institutional' as if they had no sense at all. None of those people are prospering- in fact all I know of are on a downhill slide and their voices are becoming more and more shallow, faint, and irrelevant. As if they have gone too far and are now paying a heavy price tag.

Who here has the wisdom to correct the churches? Who among us walks in the midst of the candlesticks? One opinion is no greater than the next. Everyone has a diagnosis. Everyone seems to have an ax to grind. But what is the Spirit saying to the churches? I would tremble to thrust my counsel into the problems of the church. They are too wonderful for me. Men look on outward appearances. Men darken counsel with words without knowledge. They open their mouthes and instead of illuminating the situation with their words- they add to the darkness (Job 36-39). Information is not revelation.

The first people to get rebuked when God speaks will be the 'rebukers'. Why? They counsel on what they see and hear with their own wit and logic. Job's counselors did not come from the presence of God with their words or they had known what was going on. They looked, assessed and they judged.

Is there not a balm in Gilead? Does God not have a recipe for our generation? Beginning at each local assembly God has a word for them if they would seek Him. God did not judge the whole of the NT Church with the Laodicean tag. He does not spank all to get the right one. There was some even in Sardis that did not soil their garments. And when the Lord speaks, He will state what is being done right as well as what is done wrong. This is how you will know you are hearing the prophetic voice of God. God knows all the works- not just the bad ones. He gives credit where credit is due. For me? It is a fearful thing to declare things about the Church, the Bride- the Lambs wife. Do you talk about your wife like that? Fat, Dumb? You ought to think about these things. We are going to stand before God someday.

Compliments wrote:

Maybe I am not explaining myself right. Let me go to the Word. Consider Daniels prayer, he didn't say "The church has sinned, THEY are in bad shape"
No, what he did say was, "WE have sinned". He included himself because he was apart of Israel.

This is good. Daniel had a true priestly heart. He was identified with the people, wayward as they were. He stood before God on behalf of the people. You read of the priests that they had no inheritance of their own in Israel. God was their inheritance. So those with a true priestly heart know they are not going anywhere without the people of God.

But the true priest also stands before the people on behalf of God, and must be faithful to "declare unto Jacob his transgression, and unto Israel his sin" (Micah 3.8).

And even this he does in a spirit not of accusation, but intercession. This is the one thing that tells on us. There's lots of people who love nothing better than exposing the nakedness of the erring Church. (Check out the media if you want a dose of this.) But then there are those who grieve over her nakedness and feel deeply within their own heart her shame. And even their "criticism" of her is done in a Spirit of intercession.

As Elijah, in Paul's words: "Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel..." (Rom. 11.2).

You'd think it should read, "maketh accusation to God against Israel." They had "killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars..." and worshipped Baal.... But Elijah's criticism of all this is done in a spirit of intercession. He refuses to have anything whatsoever to do with the ministry of the Accuser of the brethren. Even though he has some very critical things from the mouth of God to say to the people.

Let us do the same. What Spirit are we in? Is it accusation, or intercession? We can still cry against the evils of the Church in our day. Let it be in intercession. We can be faithful as watchmen to sound the trumpet of alarm: the enemy is already inside the gates! Let all we do be not just gleeful tearing down, but something we are broken about, weeping about, and hoping to see a building up as a result of it all. (As God commissioned Jeremiah: He did tell him he was to go and root out, and pull down, and destroy, and thrown down... But with what objective in mind? After that, "to build, and to plant" (Jer. 1.10).

...So, I believe that as we more and more seek to abide in the priestly heart of Jesus concerning all these things, this will ensure that no innocent brothers and sisters are ever hit by "friendly fire" that was aimed at The Enemy.

...And maybe this is what Compliments has been concerned about. I hope we all are. For, yes, it's true, as he says: many have left churches (whether recognized as denominational or otherwise) that have been a grief to their hearts, and are seeking truth. That's us, isn't it? Let's look after one another.

AD

Krispy: I wish I could express my heart better. I can pretty well express my mind, but I have a hard time getting my heart, my spirit out in words. But if y'all could in some way catch a glimpse of my heart... I think y'all would understand what I am saying.

I think many of us share in the grief of the many issues that are so evident before us. It is so easy to either get angry or dispair. I agree also very much with the 'beam' in our eye thing also. I received an e-mail from a brother who is wrestling with all these issues also. I don't feel the liberty to share the whole content here, but it is indicitive of how so many are trying to wreckon with everything going on.

He says that anger and courage are great motivators. While this is true, I think we cannot allow ourselves to be motivated by anger to speak to the Church. Courage will help us act also. But I think that when we speak of these things what we need is unction and boldness which are not rooted in human emotion, but in the power of God. Steven stood up with a scathing message to the Jews- but it was preached in love. It came off as harsh- but the evidence was in his love for the people.

Paul said that he wished himself accursed from Christ if it would save the Jews. A heart such as this could speak to it's generation as the realization that only God can change men would foster a seeking out of answers before the Lord. It would put intensity in prayer.

What did anger get Moses? You will recall that when he should have spoken to the rock- he smote the rock. Why? He was angry at the people. When we get angry we run the risk of taking up a rod with our actions. This is not to say that we don't have a zeal for Christ as we should have. But, and I will speak for myself here, have at times confused [i]anger[/i] for [i]unction[/i]. God wanted to do with a still small voice what I tried to do with a [u]rod[/u]. Using inflamitory statements is a fire that is contageous. Soon the gatekeepers are angry and shut you down. The message we need for our times will be tough enough to swallow even if it is a 'pure' word from God. By all means if it is God saying it- we ought to say it. But I worry that we run the risk of thrashing the people with our own feelings.

Compliments wrote:
The believers that I know of are not what we are depicting. The ones that I know have stopped going to a local assembly because they don't see the truth preached there anymore, they have been knocked down, kicked about. Most have been rejected by the Church system.

So, TRUE. I know of many believers who left their local assembly, as well. I find it interesting that many churches are not a "hospital" anymore. They have become part of the "battlefield." There are so many wounded in the church that stay wounded. There are also so many that leave the church, wounded by the church.

I see a people that are broken, hurting, perishing for a lack of knowledge. And yet we can't say anything good about ourselves.

I think you're right, here, and I think that is why we can't say much good about ourselves. "The Church" is suppose to be a place, and a people, of freedom, joy, deliverance, healing, growth, maturity, love, and living a disciplined life, etc. Generally speaking I think the church has basically become quite the opposite.

When we say that the church is in bad shape, do we not hear ourselves, we are saying that we are in bad shape.

I'll admit that even myself has been in "bad shape." I, myself, need to have a well disciplined life. It's so true that we are "The Information Age" - we want to know everything about everything. Our minds (My mind) get/s so distracted by what this world has to offer, that it ends more "important" then our/my spriritual walk, and spiritual growth. And then to top it all off - not only do I/we put a strain on my/our spiritual growth, but I/we have become too weak and selfish to help the "other" person.

But look at what the Bible says about this Church that the LORD has bought.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Are we the "body of Christ?" Or have most Christians assembled their own Christ version? Have most Christians not accepted Christ version 1, and replaced Him with version 1.1, and by now, version 4006.3[CHRIST version 4006.3 - Description: Newly upgraded. What's great about this version is He can't do much! He's quite lazy, actually! You're still required, as your duty to play with him and keep him somewhat happy, but he really doesn't listen to you when you talk to him, and quite frankly, he doesn't talk back. However, he is good for wealth and your popularity across the world, his "barbie" is also the newly updated filthy prostitute (he didn't care much for a white spotless bride. He realized it was all a fairytale, so he decided to settle! Phew!) oh, and he of course still offers the 'Get Out Of Hell Free By Grace' card!) GET YOURS TODAY]

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is why the battle MUST be fought. Does it put a damper on things to know that much of the church is screwed up? Sure, but it is reality, and something MUST be done about it. The failing church does need to have something said about it. Are there some good churches? Sure. No doubt, but I would dare say that those churches might make up a fingernail of the rest of the body!

**newly edited, as I was in a rush this morning!**

Robert wrote: What did anger get Moses? You will recall that when he should have spoken to the rock- he smote the rock. Why? He was angry at the people. When we get angry we run the risk of taking up a rod with our actions.

This is a very good illustration. Moses lost patience with the people, he lost hope for them; we must be careful not to fall into the same trap.

[i]And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, [b]Hear now, ye rebels[/b]; must we fetch you water out of this rock?[/i] (Num 20:10)

In these words from Moses we see that hope had died. To him they were no longer God’s people, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and therefore infinitely precious. Instead he saw them now as a band of rebels, he forgot the price of their redemption and therefore considered them worthless and hopeless. We must never forget that the "weak brother" is also the brother for whom Christ died, and he is not a hopeless case.

For Moses it had become a tedious duty to lead the people to the rock and see them satisfied. This is a particular danger for leaders or those who think they have progressed spiritually to some lofty place.

In Christ,

Ron

InTheLight wrote:

Robert wrote: What did anger get Moses? You will recall that when he should have spoken to the rock- he smote the rock. Why? He was angry at the people. When we get angry we run the risk of taking up a rod with our actions.

This is a very good illustration. Moses lost patience with the people, he lost hope for them; we must be careful not to fall into the same trap.

[i]And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, [b]Hear now, ye rebels[/b]; must we fetch you water out of this rock?[/i] (Num 20:10)

In these words from Moses we see that hope had died. To him they were no longer God’s people, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and therefore infinitely precious. Instead he saw them now as a band of rebels, he forgot the price of their redemption and therefore considered them worthless and hopeless. We must never forget that the "weak brother" is also the brother for whom Christ died, and he is not a hopeless case.

For Moses it had become a tedious duty to lead the people to the rock and see them satisfied. This is a particular danger for leaders or those who think they have progressed spiritually to some lofty place.

In Christ,

Ron

I agree. This is a great illustration. Anger is certianly NOT the way to handle these such things. Excellent word Robert.

RobertW wrote:

Who here has the wisdom to correct the churches? Who among us walks in the midst of the candlesticks?

Yes, Amen. None of us. He is the only One with the wisdom and the authority to walk in the midst of the candlesticks, and trim the lamps. They are, after all, His own candlesticks.

He is our great High priest, and He walks in the midst of the lampstands as the priest of old did in the tabernacle, ordering the shewbread, lighting the incense, trimming the lamps... He had some hard things to say to some of the lamps because they weren't shining forth all that well. But He did this out of His priestly heart.

Realizing this brings a holy fear upon me. Do I without much thought to what I am doing, reach out and presume to touch the ark? Only the priests are rightly related to the ark, and this because they have been anointed and sanctified, and know they are not to touch it (the Glory) with their own words or hands.

Or do I speak about all the wrongs and ills and evils in a wrong spirit? Only the priests were sanctified and anointed to deal with the sin of the sanctuary. It meant death for anyone unauthorized to touch these things even if these things had become defiled!

So, if it is He alone who walks in the midst of the Candlesticks accomplishing His priestly service, I must be certain that what I do or say is in His Holy Spirit, and springs out from HIMSELF.

Honestly, I tremble about these things. I know the Church is in deep trouble, but has God done the work He needs to do in my own life to make me a vessel in which He HIMSELF can deal with it all?

Help us, Lord. Help me. Your church is filthy, so we cry, sanctify US. We, like the One who walked amidst the candlesticks, would be clothed upon with priestly garments. Anoint us to do Your own work! Come forth in fire, and fuller's soap, and purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver is purged. Wash us-- those whom you have called with a priestly calling-- wash us with that Soap that leaves YOU shining forth from our lives! THEN shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasing unto the Lord as in days of old. Amen.

AD

KrispyKrittr wrote:
But I want to be in a circle of strong believers, people who are totally sold out to God, and it's hard to find that anymore.

Thats what attracts me to this forum. There are people like that here... but in real life, where are they?

This is exactly where I am at, too. I would not want to get into an argument with you, Brother Krittr, as to who is the weakest, but I know myself. I also know myself to be weak.

And I deeply need fellowship. But I walk more or less alone in my locale. It is hard to find others "in real life" who are sold out to God and are seeking Him for more of Himself, and wanting to give Him more of themselves. Just about everybody I know around here are more or less content to "go with the flow" of "The Church," without searching out all that carefully where she is flowing!

And so that is what attracted me, too, to this site. I see others with the same "distress, and discontent, and debt" (of poverty of spirit) that I myself feel. Like David's men, the ones who came to him when they got sick and tired of Saul's ways. (1 Sam. 22.2). I was gladdened when I came across this site. And I hope, in a right spirit, a priestly spirit, we can continue to share openly our griefs with one another, and our discontent, and our debts (if you know what I mean). Without worrying, Now what have I gone and done and said. Now I'm in trouble again.

AD

To hear and see, and feel the sick and dying state of the place called the Church is hard to bear. ALthough there are good ones. We need to be awaken to sick state of America. She needs our deep crys. She is crying for help, are willing to help?

We can't step away and go on with our own lives.
We must feel. We weep. May our hearts be crushed.
We need to love by bring the truth, willing to step out and speak. God gave us a voice, so let us speak out against the wrong. He is a Holy God we called to be Holy as He is holy. To speak out when we see our brothers sister in SIns. Lets Us love them. Let us care, let into their lives. God gave us hands to give. God gave us a heart to be broken for the lost who think they are saved.
Broken Because they are running away with the glory of our King.

many are saying ther are few who are seeking hard after God. I do agree. But if I did nothing about it what good what will it do. But what can we do? what can I do? I know people in my life, in Church, in a bible study, even it is just one. Start praying for them. Pray God will bring people to us. He does it!! He will answer. God brings people in my life, to share with. We must take time to pray and love those who are weak, those who need to be show the way of truth. May we not get upset, but even more passionate to pray, share, speak truth. If they are family, then lets give our lives for them. Isn't the Greatest love is one who lay down his life for a friend.

God said if we follow Him HE WILL make us fisher of men.... Let us follow His ways..

don't give up if we see no change in someone, keep praying. Lets keep praying for our brother and sister who need our love. and let us pray for the lost

In his love
charlene

Hi everyone.

Just gleaned a bit from this last page here and I really appreciate some of the things you all have shared.

Brother Robert,

"But I worry that we run the risk of thrashing the people with our own feelings."

Brother I appreciate that. I think it is a tremendous statement.

AD, the post about the candlestick and the priests was a blessing.

I have recently listened to a message given by Keith Daniel several times and I think there is much in it that is appropriate for this topic also, from what I've read here...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=8193&commentView=itemComments]The influnce of the Holy Spirit Through a Believer[/url]

Chris

Today is the first time I've read through this thread. It is certainly on a topic that I would say, is the most relevant topic for me. This is [i]all[/i] I think about!

I have agonized and cried many tears for this reason, trying to sort out the question, "Where is the Church?" and crying from my heart, "Will the real Church of Jesus Christ please stand up?"

I hate to post a long post, cause people don't usually read them, but I can tell, this one's gonna be a long one. Sorry.

Do we not know that when we put down the Church we are putting down ourselves? We are apart of the Church, the called out ones.

I know that. Or at least, I've given that much thought. I've decided that the Church is not in an institution or anywhere else for that matter. The Church is everywhere. And when I say the problem with the Church is...I'm saying the institutional Church, not the True Church. You can't call the institutional church, Church anymore than you can call Walmart church. Sure, there might be true believers in an institutional church, but there are true believers at Walmart.

I'm not gonna take the time to quote the exact scripture right here, but Jesus said, in speaking to the woman at the well, (paraphrasing) "Why do you make a big deal out of where God will be worshipped? The time is coming when he won't be worshipped anywhere on this earth, but God is looking for True Worshippers and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. The True Church is made up of people everywhere who are worshipping God with their whole being.

What is True Worship? It's the complete submission of one's self in every way to God. We just left a church where the youth pastor was allowing his girlfriend to sleep over at his apartment. He also led the worship! What?! How can you lead people in worship if you don't know what worship is?!

Worship isn't singing songs, people. Worship is a way of life.

Leaving this church, for me, was very likely the last straw. I've tried to be a part of institutional churches. I've tried with all my heart, but I'm jealous for the glory of God. I can't stand to see them act like they represent God, when what they promote is a farce. I realize that there are some pastors whose hearts are earnest, but the problem is, as I see it, what happens in the hearts of men when they are allowed to over organize. Pride!

Below is a burning word which has formed in my heart over time. I wrote it down about 4 months ago:

I see the people of Israel, chosen by God to be his own, whom he used to establish his religion through. I see how those people, because of their pride and rebellion and individualism and loving this world, rejected God when he came to them.

So then, God chose to go into the highways and byways and take in anyone who would come and he formed the Church. But…once again, the pride in the heart of man has corrupted that which God has intended. So, I believe, once again, God will do what he will do in coming again apart from organized religion. The religious leaders of our day will be opposed to the true work of The Living God. They will claim to be the ones we need to listen to, but if we follow them, we will find ourselves opposing God and even crying, “Crucify Him!” in the end.

This is what I see. My greatest fear is being so deceived that I would reject God because he doesn’t do things the way I think he should.

I see how strong the desire for recognition and validation is in the heart of man, and I see how the hunger for honor causes those in authority to stray back into the soulish, going of their own way. Allowing our souls to live is a great danger. It always preceeds deception.

In the same way that God had to abandon the organized religion of the Jews, God has had to abandon organized Christianity. God hasn't abandoned people, he has abandoned the organized group of people who claim to represent him, yet are going their own way.

So, what's wrong with the Church? Nothing! The True Church is thriving and advancing the Kingdom and destroying all the works of the enemy. The institutional church is...I don't know. They are out there in some NaNa Land. Love, Dian

The institutional church is...I don't know. They are out there in some

This, to me, is friendly fire. It can leave the impression that anyone attending a corner church that may be part of an organization is somehow 'institutional' and out of step with God. But some of the more godly people on earth attend these churches and are spending and being spent for God. There are people in these places that get no salary and actually pay the bills for the needs of the church. They knock on doors and pray. They seek the face of God and folk are genuinely born again there. If we take on an attitude that all churches are institutional or even infer that- what is to be said when a person is born again and reads some of this stuff about the place wherein they just came to God. Noone picked me up at 7 years old and took me to a house church or a gymnasium, that was not my experience; I was picked up and brought to a 'institutional' church and taught my first knowledge of God and the fear of God. To this day we still try to carry on this work. So, I would hope that folk kept than in mind before shooting off a few rounds in our direction. :-?

You are right, Robert. There is no doubt whatever that what you are saying is true. Precious ministers, true hearted men, are there. The sheep of God's pasture are there. Some of them are among my closest friends.

But I hope you are willing to concede that we are in the beginnings of a very great shaking, the end of which will be that institutional, or denominational Christianity, as we know it, will be history.

AD

But I hope you are willing to concede that we are in the beginnings of a very great shaking, the end of which will be that institutional, or denominational Christianity, as we know it, will be history.

What I see happening is an increasing trend towards religion without God. We can move indoors or open air or anywhere we wish and if God's not there its all in vain. Location is not going to put breath in the carcass.

I have been stuck in I Samuel 3:1 now for some time. Is the word of God precious in our times? I mean, is there an open vision? Expository preaching and hermeneutics are ruling the day- and this is fine for sound teaching; but where is the unction of God that speaks to the people in a way that when they hear they say as did Eli several verses later- "It is the Lord." Not Robert, not our favorite minister; but when they hear the word come forth something undeniable takes hold on them and they hear not the voice of a faceless man- but they are hearing the voice of the Living God. Moreover, when God is at work among a people in such a way that they know beyond question that God is near. TO me, it has nothing to do with a building or a house or a corner church or a storefront building. It has everything to do with whether or not the power of God is manifest in the house.

Would to God that the days would come when the word of God is once again the Sword of the Spirit and not the sword of men. When the Holy Spirit is wielding the Word through the lips of a yielded vessel. We need to put the 'S' (Spirit) back in WORD (SWORD). To me, these things have little to do with denominationalism, and everything to do with whether or not a generation will finally decide to live right and believe God.

Robert,

I really appreciated your last post.

I have been stuck in I Samuel 3:1 now for some time. Is the word of God precious in our times? I mean, is there an open vision? Expository preaching and hermeneutics are ruling the day- and this is fine for sound teaching; but where is the unction of God that speaks to the people in a way that when they hear they say as did Eli several verses later- "It is the Lord." Not Robert, not our favorite minister; but when they hear the word come forth something undeniable takes hold on them and they hear not the voice of a faceless man- but they are hearing the voice of the Living God. Moreover, when God is at work among a people in such a way that they know beyond question that God is near. TO me, it has nothing to do with a building or a house or a corner church or a storefront building. It has everything to do with whether or not the power of God is manifest in the house.

Would to God that the days would come when the word of God is once again the Sword of the Spirit and not the sword of men. When the Holy Spirit is wielding the Word through the lips of a yielded vessel. We need to put the 'S' (Spirit) back in WORD (SWORD). To me, these things have little to do with denominationalism, and everything to do with whether or not a generation will finally decide to live right and believe God.

This all resonated in my own heart. This is just where I am at, too.

For too long, people have tried to make of the word and the Spirit two separate things. Disaster has been the consequence. I hunger for this very thing. Someone speaks, and the response is not, "My, that was great preaching..." But instead, "It is the Lord."

I heard a preacher once ask the congregation, "Have you all got your swords today?" And he waved His Bible, and the people waved their Bibles back. But it is not the Bible which is the sword: it is the sword of THE SPIRIT that is the living, powerful, word of God.

I think of that passage in Amos a lot, the one in which he foresees a "famime... of hearing the words of the LORD" (Amos 8.11). He doesn't say a famine of Bible study, or of preaching, or of books and tapes and sermons and videos... but of hearing the words of the LORD.

How we need this!

...And I want to just add a little about what you mentioned... "the trend toward religion without God." And maybe bare my heart a bit.

You are right about this. And the denominational/organized system of Christianity has no corner on the market as far as this goes. I have never walked along denominational lines; that has not been my Christian experience from my beginning. I was 25 then. I'm 60 now. My pathway through the years has been outside denominational boundaries.

But I will tell you, I know of home gatherings that have turned stale, others that have been a dead religious thing. I know of "come-outers" who have turned away from God. And of others who are blinded by pride because they feel they know a little more, and look down on "church" people. What a grief that is. They know not what spirit they are of. Do people assume they have an "in" with God just because they're part of a little group that's elite in their own eyes and have made it their "dogma" to separate themselves from "the harlot"? I'll tell you, there'll be some surprises on That Day.

So just because you come out of the organized church, this is no guarantee you've escaped "religion without God." How many groups are there (outside dead denominationalism, I mean) that have a name that they liveth, and are themselves dead?

Which brings me to what I really want to say here. There are genuine lovers of Jesus in the denominations. But something has to be recognized: at the same time, there continues to be an "exodus" away from what is called the organized system. This in itself is no guarantee you are walking with God, and finding God. However, it is happening! And growing! A lot of these, no doubt most of these, are genuine sheep of God's pasture who are looking for their Shepherd, and have not been able to find Him in the brown pastures of "traditonal" church.

So, what does this portend, I ask? Is this to be dismissed as just the religious counterpart of doing your own thing? "There be many men that have run away from their masters these days."

Or is this of God? And if it is of God, those who continue to fellowship within the system, are they willing to respect those who with weary heart have left it? (Instead of condemning them, and fighting against them? Lest they be found to be fighting against God?) And then, if it is of God, if this truly is a move of God in its beginnings, can there be an open heart to discover whereunto will it grow? God, just what is that You have in Your heart and mind about this? What are you doing? Can I listen in on Your heart about this? Like Samuel? "Speak, Lord, what are you saying? For your servant is listening."

Robert, I am more or less new on this site, and, as in the Church, so here: even after so many years I am still not sure where or how I fit. But even though having arrived here only a short while ago, I've already come to respect the brothers and sisters who post on this site. There is a lot of wealth here, and wisdom, and strength.

I see, I think, many here who are fellowshipping in "organized" churches. And at the same time, many who are not. I pray we can walk with grace toward one another, and patience. There should never be division between true brethren. We need to walk in lowliness and meekness with one another, and grace toward one another, and forbearance, and love. I truly hope no one here refuses me on the basis of a false perception as to where they perceive me to be. (Oh, he's one of those "come-outer" types that doesn't want anything to do with organized Christianity. Byebye.) Because I really like a lot of the ones I've "met" here. The hunger for God. The desire to be "sold out" to Him. For my part, I have a great respect for all believers who are hungry for God regardless of where or how they fellowship at this point in time. I am confident the Great Shepherd knows His sheep, each one of them, wherever they are, and will not fail to guide them and make sure they are part of His unfolding purposes in this hour.

Abraham was called "a Hebrew" (Gen. 14.13). The word means "one who crosses over." One who is "on the move." God is on the move these days. So, I want to be a Hebrew. I want to move with Him. And I want to walk with others who are hearing His Voice, and moving with Him, too.

Thanks,
AD

Or is this of God? And if it is of God, those who continue to fellowship within the system, are they willing to respect those who with weary heart have left it? (Instead of condemning them, and fighting against them? Lest they be found to be fighting against God?)

Hi AD,

I have some wonderful friends who are part of what is known as the 'out of church' movement. I know people who are so out of church that they don't even attend house meetings. Some just pray at home and try to walk with God that way. I am concerned for them as it seems that believers need to come together as a body in house churches or other churches.

I agree that the direction of things denominationally is going in many cases the wrong way. Churches are dying because they are growing older with very little new 'life'. Pastors are growing older and not being replaced. Folk just don't come to church like they used to unless it somehow resembles an 'event' with all many of activity. Others have 'timed' services so folk arrive and leave within 1 hour on a mid week. Sunday night services are shutting down. the old timers are worried that the nation cannot survive without the local church. Churches are being sued over everything under the sun. How long will it be until they are uninsurable?

In Pentecostal circles it has been largely forgotten that the path to Pentecost goes through the Weslyian holiness revivals. Folk want Pentecost- but don't want to 'pay' the cost. I say that unashamedly- because you can't just live any ole' way and walk in the power and presence of God. For several generations this has been forgotten. There are few that still believe in 'living right'. So many desire- just a little bit of Egypt or a whole lot of Egypt.

So whereever God is found, truly, I agree, let us not be guilty of condemning. I certainly do not condemn house churches or refer to them as rebel's or any such ungodly remarks. Barna has shown us this trend. I think folk are desperate to find God. I think many of the saints who love God are being worn out in an environment that no longer wants God. They are in a strait betwixt two- should they hang on to the old... or should they grab on to the new.

I think one of the main points of this whole issue is that God Himself has been and is shaking the church in this nation today as we know it. There is a separation taking place. It is going to be more and more obvious, I believe who believes what.

Do we really want the God of the New Testament? Or do we want what the church today at large is offering?

The ONLY hope for this nation is a church truly united with Christ, as the New Testament teaches and exemplifies. And sorry folks, this is often a divisive issue. But I believe it's God who is forcing the issue. He must have a people who are truly his.

I have agonized in travailing intercession for years now, through the Holy Spirit laying hold of me, for Christ's church, of which I am a part. HE is the one who has done this in me. HE IS IN AGONY OVER THE CONDITION OF THE CHURCH OF THIS NATION. How do I know this? Because of what the Holy Spirit Himself does through me in prayer.

And yes, it is divisive. Unfortunately. I bet we all here would love to have everyone understand the intensity and burden we all feel over the church's sin right? But not everyone will. And you will be called evil...because of it-saying it needs to be more "loving"...

Sorry-you've reached me too late. There is way too much at stake-like the impending judgment on our nation, and the lostness of our nation, because of us, that I WILL NOT STOP SPEAKING of the utter anguish the Father feels about his people because of our SIN!!!

It's hard to hear these things-and I am nobody and have no outright authority to speak of the condition of Christ's church, except that the LORD speaks to me of these things, and shares the pain of it in me. We've (us, the church) GOT to return to him before it's too late.

I would encourage all here to attend the Nashville 7/07/07 Prayer/Fasting/Humility event taking place-Lou Engalls-"The Cause", where thousands of young people, and all ages will gather to pray for our nation and repent for the church.

Jesus help us, but more importantly, have your way!

Peace,

Time to pull the punches of truth and verity of the unbelief among God's evill congregation(s) that call upon Christ, have a form of ungodliness but deny the power therof, such abhor. God knows you hearts and how do we prove that there is verity here, and God has no pleasure with the congregations of evil workers (workers of inquity), and whosoever biddeth him God spede is a part-taker of his evel dedes.

I COr 3:3, Do yet see Compliments, that Christ is not in the carnal divisions of Spurgeon, Wesley, thorow such doctrinal divisions as Calvinists being in their literature as strictly anti Methodist, or FULL WIllers (I wot not what I do, ye are carnal soldundersin, yet Paul speaks of if there first be a willing mind)

Paul also spoke that to consider his words that are commandments as such, as Paul's commandments are the commandments of Christ.

Wesley rebelled, taking the women from her high seat of a man's honour with her subjection to Christ and him, eschewing the world, modest clothing, letting it be the hidden man of the herte?

Try my work, see if it would burn as the timber, or would it abide as gold, silver and precious stones?
Look to Christ for an example of holiness, how you ought to be in daily contact, never would be a tv before his face, he'd use the gaslawn mower only to keep rule and power at bay. Ye are cursed for your invencions as wast Israel of old
Yet ye say I am a cursed? Yet did I recieve it as a revalation of God or of men?
WHen I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a chylde, now that I am a man I put away childish thinges.

2 Corinthians 2:5-11 (1526 Today tindale N.T) ¶ If any man hath caused sorrow, the same hath not made me sorry: but partly, lest I should grieve you all.
6 It is sufficient unto the same man that he was rebuked of many.
7 So that now contrarywise ye ought to forgive him and comfort him: lest that same should be swallowed up with overmuch heaviness.
8 Wherefore I exhort you, that love may have strength over him.
9 For this cause verily did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye should be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also. And verily if I forgive any thing, to whom I forgave it for your sakes forgave I it, in the room of Christ,
11 lest Satan should prevent us. For his thoughts are not unknown unto us.

Here can I show you your 3rd chapter of 1st Corinth? The gospel of Christ's congregacion

1 COr 3:18-23 (1526 stil waiting for a godly printer)1 ¶
18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man seem wise among you, let him be a fool in this world, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: he compasseth the wise in their craftiness.
20 And again, God knoweth the thoughts of the wise that they be vain.
21 ¶ Therefore let no man rejoice in men. For all things are yours,
22 whether it be Paul, other Apollo, either Cephas: whether it be the world, either life, either death, whether they be present things or things to come: all are yours,
23 and ye are Christe’s, and Christ is goddis.

Brethren despise not prophesies, let not the business you have at hand become tedious unto you. Let love be without dissimulacion, hate that which is evil, cleave unto that which is good.

Or are you as the prophets, priests and citizens of Ierusalem in the days of Ieremy?

Fear brethren, lest the wrath of God abide upon you, for cutting off the poor helpless in the street and locking those who fled into preson.

May the grace of our Lord Christ Iesu, be with you all. Amen

Wesley rebelled, taking the women from her high seat of a man's honour with her subjection to Christ and him, eschewing the world, modest clothing, letting it be the hidden man of the herte?

I am wondering if you may spend [i]excessive[/i] amounts of time in the bible and prayer? I know that is going to come off as an almost crazy question, but I have a good reason for asking it. ;-)

Look to Christ for an example of holiness, how you ought to be in daily contact, never would be a tv before his face, he'd use the gaslawn mower only to keep rule and power at bay. Ye are cursed for your invencions as wast Israel of old

If this is true, then what are we to make of you sending us this info from a computer connected to an internet that has the potential to wreck your life faster than a thousand TV's and a trillion gas powered lawnmowers? Reminds me of the folk in horse and buggy with a boom box in the back. At some point, folk have to see their own blatant contradictions. :-?

Psalm73 wrote:

2 Corinthians 2:5-11 (1526 Today tindale N.T) ¶ If any man hath caused sorrow, the same hath not made me sorry: but partly, lest I should grieve you all.
6 It is sufficient unto the same man that he was rebuked of many.
7 So that now contrarywise ye ought to forgive him and comfort him: lest that same should be swallowed up with overmuch heaviness.
8 Wherefore I exhort you, that love may have strength over him.
9 For this cause verily did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye should be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also. And verily if I forgive any thing, to whom I forgave it for your sakes forgave I it, in the room of Christ,
11 lest Satan should prevent us. For his thoughts are not unknown unto us.

It is believed by many that this passage is in reference to the restoration of the young man who was front and center of the [i]fornication[/i] that Paul told the Corinthians was not as much as heard among the gentiles. The fornication, of course, was adultery and incest with his father's wife. The young man apparently repented and was restored. had the people allowed him to be 'put out' for too long he may have been swallowed up by over much sorrow. So they are told to retore the young man with the same zeal that they put him out. The point, so it seems to me, is that folk get discouraged because they are dealt with too harshly or for too long. Then enemy gains advantage and brings the person into despair or possibly faithlessness.

A couple of months ago I left our congregation with my family after many years of committment. There were some real issues with the leadership and doctrinal issues. I got too intense and felt I had to withdraw myself. We wondered around looking for a fellowship and found that there were no real better options around in the vicinity of our home. On a Sundat we then went back to our old church and had a communion service. I had not taken communion in our old fellowship for a couple of month prior to our departure because I was unsure if it stil was the table of the Lord.
A brother approached me, knelt down before me and handed the bread to me saying: "This is my body which is given for you"
I looked around in assembly and saw my brothers and sisters and it was as if the Lord reverberated "This is my body which is given for you"

I was dumbfolded. The Lord told me that this very church that I felt was in such a disorderly shape
WAS HIS BODY!!!!!!!
How dare I contradict him? I am still in this church and we still have issues and there are hurting an disillusioned people and there are still doctrinal issues.

We sometimes are too quick to shout "Ikabod". The prophet can only speak out against the temple when he can weep over Jerusalem.
We must learn from Israel's rebellion. The Lord dealt with them in accordance with their sin, but he never withdrew his promises. A remnant will be saved.

Don't we learn from the parable of the wheat and the tares? Do not root them out before the time.

While I believe that there are congregations that have abandoned the Lord and the Lord abandoned them, he will make sure to withdraw his true servants from such places.

Rev3:19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

I believe this is Jesus knocking at the church door from OUTSIDE, because he left. Laodicea is still called a CHURCH!!

If we were saints of old, we'd say I'd love to be in the church in Philadephia. What would you have done if you had lived in Laodicea? Did John ask the people to leave Laodicea and go to Philadelphia? Certainly not!

There is a difference between Laodicea and Babylon, we are not to confuse the two.

1To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Laodicea is a sick church, but Jesus died for them.
Don't we see the magnitude of his grace? Have we not learned from Hosea?

Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory.

Let us be overcomers and minister to or from within Laodicea.

Narrowpath

Amen, I agree with you wholeheartedly about what you are saying here. Laodicea is still the Lord's church, even though it is sick. And we need to weep over the the sickness, and intercede on her behalf.

BUT we also need to be on guard and not succomb to the sickness- because it will kill us. This is a very subtle and tricky thing that can happen to genuine followers of Christ. I think one of the ways of not giving in to Laodicea is to continue to be a voice against spiritual apathy/dullness NO MATTER WHAT people's response is. Be a light-an example of what it really means to love God. Be on fire!

And watch the status quo persecute you for it. But nevertheless be light and salt IN THE CHURCH anyways. Even thought there's issues, and conflict that will result. Jesus said, "Don't think I came to bring peace, I came to bring a sword" to actually turn people against each other, for a greater good, the truth upheld and lived out-so that people would turn to Him and know truth and have eternal life.

It's all worth it, even though it's difficult.

Peace

narrowpath wrote:
I looked around in assembly and saw my brothers and sisters and it was as if the Lord reverberated "This is my body which is given for you"

I was dumbfolded. The Lord told me that this very church that I felt was in such a disorderly shape
WAS HIS BODY!!!!!!!
How dare I contradict him? I am still in this church

I believe this is Jesus knocking at the church door from OUTSIDE, because he left. Laodicea is still called a CHURCH!!

Let us be overcomers and minister to or from within Laodicea.

Narrowpath

I've just quoted a few fragments from your post, Narrowpath. I liked what you shared.

I think you did the right thing, returning to your church when the Lord showed you it was His Body.

Many people these days are agonizing over this kind of thing. Do I leave? Do I stay? There is no formula that fits all cases. Each one must walk intimately with the Lord, and follow His leading.

For one thing, it's not an easy thing these days to leave and find another church that is giving the Lord of the Church His rightful place. Leaving may very well mean walking alone for a season, maybe for a long season.

Robert W in an earlier post expressed his concern for the ones who aren't even part of a "house church" these days. If it's because they think they are too "spiritual" for such gatherings, well... they've got a very hard lesson to learn, then, don't they. But maybe it's because these days it's hard even to find a home group that's vital. That's my case. I walk more or less alone. It's very difficult. I love the people of God. I love fellowship. I need fellowship. I need accountability.

...So if God has called you to remain in your church for now, you've done the right thing. I pray He will impart to you the anointing you need to be a true witness there.

You are right about Laodicea, and the picture of the Lord standing outside the door, knocking, wanting to be invited in. Maybe that is your message to that church you are in? Maybe you need to be sharing with them about this, that the Lord has shown you He wants IN, not as guest, but as Lord of His House.

And then, if He is refused, if He is not asked in, well, then comes the time to ask, "Where are you going, Lord? I'll go with you, if you can make it clear to me where you are going. I'll suffer with You outside the gate. I'll go with you outside the camp, bearing Your reproach."

AD

I think one of the ways of not giving in to Laodicea is to continue to be a voice against spiritual apathy/dullness NO MATTER WHAT people's response is. Be a light-an example of what it really means to love God. Be on fire!

And watch the status quo persecute you for it. But nevertheless be light and salt IN THE CHURCH anyways. Even thought there's issues, and conflict that will result. Jesus said, "Don't think I came to bring peace, I came to bring a sword" to actually turn people against each other, for a greater good, the truth upheld and lived out-so that people would turn to Him and know truth and have eternal life.

It's all worth it, even though it's difficult.

I agree... Yes Jesus brought the sword, turn people against each other for the greater good. This were I am. I holding to truth of God, His holiness, and people don't want to be holy, and want to friends. They don't want to talk about Sin, but call it honoring to God, when they come to worship with all their lovers. I agree we msut speak with love and grace, For Christ glory.
For his truth, By his truth we are set free.
There is real power in preaching the Gosple of course with the Holy Spirit. But God says preach Christ.

In his love
charlene

Being back to our church is not easy. I have but a handful of people that I can share my heart with inside the congregation. Listening to many of the featured preachers here on sermonindex.net awakened me to the state of the church. The awakening was rude - thanks to David Wilkerson, Art Katz, Leonard Ravenhill, Paul Washer and many others. Somehow I discovered that the discernment that I believe the Lord has given to me is not primary to safe my own spiritual skin and criticize everything wrong but for the benefit of others who are trapped in false doctrine and apathy. If I put my church off through a judgemental or unkind attitude, I would spoil God's calling and make things even worse and harden their hearts further for God's true prophetic message.

Oh how I'd love to retreat into a spiritual enclave and sit under the ministry of great men of God with a bunch of likeminded saints. I resolved that I would seek such fellowship every now and then but do stay within my present church.

Yes, people said some nasty things to me in my church, but I can take it with God's grace.
I have to die to my assumption to be acknowleged and understood. I tell you I have learned a lot more about God through these trials. As much as I would like to "teach them a lesson and tell them the truth about their true state" the Lord is teaching me lesson after lesson of patience and redemption through his rejection and suffering. He is making me aware of my own sins first before he can make use of me.

Ro2:17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

God needs very refined vessels to minister to a week church.

I wonder how many of God's servants with discernment have disqualified themselves for this prophetic task, they never kissed the live coal in Isaiah 6.

This is why true prophets are so rare, I think.

Philip