What do you think of the "Need God" Gospel presentation?

What do you think of the "Need God" Gospel presentation?

It can be found at www.NeedGod.com

I eagerly await responses to this. And I would say, very briefly, that this is a great beginning to sharing the Truth with lost souls.

I eagerly await responses to this.

Me too. Anyone?

Ever since the Way of the Master debut, this way of witnessing has become very popular.
To those who would use this method, as this website does, I do not condemn them. I know that it is very easy to use.
I would never use this method in my own witnessing. I have some reasons.
Firstly, I do not believe that telling one lie makes one a liar. Telling one lie is telling one lie. A liar is someone who habitually lies. I believe when we are sanctified, we no longer habitually lie because we are born in the Spirit. Therefore we are no longer liars. That is how I believe we become blameless. I went fishing one time, does that make me a fisher? But I could overlook that. One sin is a huge deal, even if you never do it again. If fishing really offended God, even though I did it once, I should worry.
Two, telling men they are bad is great. I totally believe that. It is easy to see that exhorting a person to repentance is one of the cheif goals of presenting the gospel. But, when I witness, I prefer to focus still the more one God's goodness. A "we all fall short of the glory of God" approach. I want people to know who the God is that is judging their sin. I want His goodness to illuminate the evil of their sin.
I also believe that to lean on this method for every encounter with the lost is misguided. Jesus and His disciples each dealt with people depending on how God led them. Humble people recieved a different proclamation than proud people. I know this is a website, so I guess now I'm just talking about the living water's evangelism method in general. Websites I suppose are much like tracts, except usually we can determine which tract each person gets. I'm sure God can handle that glitch well if He is drawing someone to be saved.
Lastly, we aren't under the law anymore. Showing people how they fell short of the law is going back a step. When we deal with Jews, we say "look past the law, look at your heart." because thats what Jesus did. With the gentiles we need to deal with the law of their consciences and expose them to the flawless character of God. I do recognize that the ten commandments are important and that people should follow them. Once again, this doesn't cause this method to like be horrible or deviled or something, but thats why I wouldn't use it.
I hope that the ministry is able to bring many people to faith in Jesus Christ.

Edit:
So I just went through it again as though I was a stubborn sinner who thought I was perfect. They really lay out hell for you. I also want to say that telling them to read John first and then Romans is pretty good advice.
Oh I was going to say more but I gotta go. I would really really like someone to critique me because I'm considering whether I've been right about any of this.

i think it is a biblical approach...but its something about it that makes it look like a "recipe", like one, two, three your saved....., maybe someone can explain it better?

Mark Cahill does a tremendous work here in teaching us how to reach the lost: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=8080

hmmhmm wrote:
i think it is a biblical approach...but its something about it that makes it look like a "recipe", like one, two, three your saved...

Well said...

hmmhmm wrote:
i think it is a biblical approach...but its something about it that makes it look like a "recipe", like one, two, three your saved...

Well said...

it is not a recipe at all, but rather the use of the law which must be used otherwise how can some be a sinner who needs a Savior?

As well, (and I am not saying this to anyone in particular) I have seen how many Christians have purposely overlooked the biblical truths the Way of the Master teaches. Why? I believe because it appeases their conscience when it comes to the command of Jesus Christ to share the Gospel with every creature. And that is a wicked sin.

greetinsg brethren in Christ's name.

Hopepurifies

Firstly, I do not believe that telling one lie makes one a liar. Telling one lie is telling one lie. A liar is someone who habitually lies. I believe when we are sanctified, we no longer habitually lie because we are born in the Spirit. Therefore we are no longer liars. That is how I believe we become blameless. I went fishing one time, does that make me a fisher? But I could overlook that. One sin is a huge deal, even if you never do it again. If fishing really offended God, even though I did it once, I should worry.

so how many lies does it take to become a liar? If we are born of the Spirit and we suddenly stop being liars, should we not stop lying altogether? We are sanctified (freed from sin) as much as we yield to God and if we don't yield our tongues, we keep on lying. To lie once is no less offensive to God than a thousand lies, either offense will land you in hell apart from Christ. for our bodies to be preserved blameless at His return, we need an impartation from Him into our inner man which will transform our soul (heart, intellect, emotions) and upon this, our bodies are kept from sinning as a result. to be blameless is not just to lay hold of the work of the Cross but to have the Cross work in your own life so that you become blameless in your person. After all, if we accept Christ should we not then end up like Him? is that not what God is working to do in us to His Glory, to see the image of Christ formed in us?

Two, telling men they are bad is great. I totally believe that. It is easy to see that exhorting a person to repentance is one of the cheif goals of presenting the gospel. But, when I witness, I prefer to focus still the more one God's goodness. A "we all fall short of the glory of God" approach. I want people to know who the God is that is judging their sin. I want His goodness to illuminate the evil of their sin.

indeed man must be convicted of sin otherwise the Gospel and the Goodness of God mean nothing. Man's simful state is the backdrop from which God's Goodness is clearly seen both in His Severity in judgment and in His Mercy. We must have a balance and at the end of the day, we ought to follow the leadings of God's SPirit as we deal with people individually.

God bless you and his Grace and Peace be with you in Christ. AMEN.

repentcanada wrote:
As well, (and I am not saying this to anyone in particular) I have seen how many Christians have purposely overlooked the biblical truths the Way of the Master teaches. Why? I believe because it appeases their conscience when it comes to the command of Jesus Christ to share the Gospel with every creature. And that is a wicked sin.

i do believe it is a good and biblical approach to reach the lost, way of the master and ray comfort has been a blessing to me and also mark cahill is just a enormous inspiration, after listening to one of his sermons i usually get an "urge" to fill my pockets with tracts and hit the streets. But... :-), its just something in me that says we can make everything into a "method", like a 12 step program. And instead of knowing God and being lead by the spirit, we rely upon a method.

and í agree on everyone should be told how utterly lost they are, the more lost you are the bigger need for a savior you have.

i like R.A Torrey's points on what every believer should know.
[i]
."So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17).
2. "The seed is the Word of God" (Luke 18:11, last clause.)
3. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Pet. 1:23).
4. "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" (Eph. 6:17).
5. "Is not my Word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" (Jer. 23:29).

The personal worker who depends upon any other instrument than the Word of God is doomed to failure. But we must have a practical knowledge of the Bible, that is, we must know how to use it for definite results. A great many men have a large theoretical knowledge of the Bible, but no practical knowledge. They do not know how to use the Bible so as to accomplish anything definite by its use.

In an inquiry meeting one evening, I asked one of the best Bible scholars in America to speak to an inquirer and show her the way of life, and he whispered in my ear, "I don’t know how to do that." A small practical knowledge of the Bible is better in personal work than a large theoretical knowledge. A practical knowledge of the Bible involves four things:

1. A knowledge how to so use the Bible as to show men, and make men realize their need of a Savior.
2. A knowledge of how to use the Bible so as to show men Jesus as just the Savior who meets their need.
3. A knowledge of how to use the Bible so as to show men how to make Jesus their own Savior.
4. A knowledge of how to use the Bible so as to meet the difficulties that stand in the way of their accepting Christ.
[/i]

from :personal work

We are called to preach the good news, Christ,the Word of God, the Way of salvation and not the Law. Where it says in the NT preach the Law? It's true that the law is like a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ but faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The gospel is a proclamation of te Son of God and the emphases is on his sufferings, the cross and resurection from the dead and not of the law of God,people need to hear about Christ and then we should call them to repentance and invite them to believe Him as Lord and Savior. I dont believe in methods but in the power of God, the way you approach individuals is different, so can be the methods but the mesage is the same.

I agree what hmmhmm quoted about Torrey we should made good use of the Bible and have practical knowledge and know how to lead an inquire to the Savior. The gosple is God

brethren
let us remember that Christ came not to abilish the law but to fulfil it. If we are to be His followers, we are to fulfil it too as He has given us grace to do so. The law is not something to be discarded because not one jot or tittle of it will pass away says our Lord. To be sure, one can't be justified by the law, one can only be justified through Christ, but because He fulfilled the law, we are to do the same because we have been enabled by Him and through Him. The preaching of justification by the law is necessary to have the contrast needed to show forth the Mercy and Goodness of our God shown us through Christ.

Grace and Peace in Christ unto you all. AMEN.

IRONMAN said :

The preaching of justification by the law is necessary

Sorry brother but u are wrong, justification is by faith in the Son of God, the law only condemns us, make us guilty and helpless we should make good use of the law especially to a careless sinner but standing before the mount of Sinai with the burden of sin on your shoulder and hoping that u will be justified by obeying the law it's impossible you need to walk few miles away to the cross and enter by the Door the narrow way.

The law can reveal the wickeness of our hearts but it is the Word of God that saves us and the Spirit that convicts and leads us to repantance and to Christ.

Ray Comfort makes good use of the law but his message lacks unction and power at least it seems so to me.Our intentions can be very honest and true but we are in desperate need of power from on high.

I am more inclined to agree with elected. Can someone show me directly from the bible, their method? Did Jesus ever compare people to the ten commandments? Did Paul? The Decalogue (10 commandments) isn't everything. We won't even be judged by the "10 commandments" it is our hearts themselves that will be judged. Breaking the 10 commandments just reveals evil already in our hearts.

i think Jesus "raised" the bar, he said our righteousness must be much bigger then the farises. So 10 commandments are easy in comparison :-).

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

and if anyone dont think they are sinners we must show them they are, we can use the 10 commandments to do that, i know Peter when preached he told people they killed Jesus, he brought to their mind they where murderers. :-)

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, [b]whom ye have crucified[/b], both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 [b]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart[/b], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

so the using of 10 commandments are good and biblical i think.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Breaking the 10 commandments just reveals evil already in our hearts.

Is this not necessary, the seeing ourselves as desperately wicked part? We must see ourselves as lost before we can be found. I think the WOTM may not be a sure fire way to salvation, but it does wonders at breaking up stony ground. By showing people the requirements of God they see how far short they fall…they see that He is righteous and that he has the right to judge them by his standards.

It's called "Way of the Master" because Jesus used the law of GOd to reach lost souls. Have you ever listened to "Hell's Best Kept Secret"? Brother Ray gives Scripture and extreme detail as to how we need to open up the Divine law to the lost.

Do you need exact Scriptures?

We should obey the law of Christ and the law of the Spirit and that is possible by grace.Christ is greater then the law of Moses.The new covenant much more glorious then the old covenant. Behold Christ makes all things new, he is the alpha and omega of our faith,the end of the Law and the only One who fulfiled it without breaking a commandment.Our example is He not the Law of Moses.We should follow Him not the law.

He commended us to obey his commendments and if we love God with all our heart, mind..ect and our neighbor as ourself we have fullfilled the whole moral law of Moses and God's commendments.
By grace God made it possible for us to obey his word and commendments.

But the subject of this thread was about the Law of Moses or the 10 commendments that Ray Comfort uses in his ministry as a preperatory work to bring people to Christ, if it works for Him amen but this method it is not a MUST that everyone should follow to be effective in soulwinning.

The law will not do the work of conviction of the Holy Spirit, we live in the age of methods, we plan everything, we say the right words and preach orthodox doctrines but they kill unless the Spirit operates through us and puts on fire the 'material' that we prepare by prayer.

The old puritans prayed about the gift of tears,they new well that for a sinner to come to Christ he needs to be first of all convicted by the Holy Spirit, today often we take his place and try not only to convince the sinner but convict it and we use everykind of methods to get the results we want to.

I am not careful to answer thee on this matter, as narrow as I may seem, I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ without respect of persons. You can't just go up on the street to anybody folyshly with the purpose of being seen of men, for the praise of men, yet a sense of love you do have, but don't I take heed and beware of covetousnees? That you should accuse yourself before the Lord as I, who was so covetous (openly follish as well) with the o;d car, other's wifes, $$, however those who covet land take it by violence. I donot however I seek mine own and do look upon other's thinges.
Never did I work fithiness with men, that I ought am accused of, God has casted all fornications away from me.
Just like now, if I went out their and talk to the neighnors walking down the street about Christ Jesus with my doctrine of winds, and seeking to please them, they would talk me to scorn and now the religous authorites have heard about Tindale

I didn't chose this, Calvin is not Christ but a commander of men, really I would have rather withdrawn to the OZarks and lived in ease.

But I preached to Ninevah to forsake vain vanities, to proclaim fasting, to put on sackclought and live from death unto life

Thorow the redempcion of the blood of Iesus

Also loving even while the hearts are hardening

AMen and praise to God the father

Exhort the bretren and sistern to love one another

Psalm73 wrote:
I am not careful to answer thee on this matter, as narrow as I may seem, I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ without respect of persons. You can't just go up on the street to anybody folyshly with the purpose of being seen of men, for the praise of men, yet a sense of love you do have, but don't I take heed and beware of covetousnees? That you should accuse yourself before the Lord as I, who was so covetous (openly follish as well) with the o;d car, other's wifes, $$, however those who covet land take it by violence. I donot however I seek mine own and do look upon other's thinges.
Never did I work fithiness with men, that I ought am accused of, God has casted all fornications away from me.
Just like now, if I went out their and talk to the neighnors walking down the street about Christ Jesus with my doctrine of winds, and seeking to please them, they would talk me to scorn and now the religous authorites have heard about Tindale

I didn't chose this, Calvin is not Christ but a commander of men, really I would have rather withdrawn to the OZarks and lived in ease.

But I preached to Ninevah to forsake vain vanities, to proclaim fasting, to put on sackclought and live from death unto life

Thorow the redempcion of the blood of Iesus

Also loving even while the hearts are hardening

AMen and praise to God the father

Exhort the bretren and sistern to love one another

How many times do you have to be told you are barely intelligible because you insist on using old English? Please, if you want to communicate with people communicate in their vernacular. You didn't learn to speak like this in the Ozark Mountains. (For anyone who doesn't know they are located in Arkansas/Missouri.)

Speak some "Arkaneze" at least then I would know what you are talking about.

It is a very biblical way to share the gospel. Ray and Kirk have been a tremendous blessing in my life.

I believe that "we" in the church look at "sins" and see sinners. I think God looks at "SIN" and see s lost mankind who needs to be redeemed and doesn't have a clue that they are dead or even standing in the place of eternal judgement of damnation. Two very different things. If I were to say to you lets go to the funeral home and preach to the dead corpse, but let's tell him/her the law of God and ask them some simple questions, than we can lead them to Christ. I supose this has some truth to it, if those bringing the message have the power of God to first bring life so that the dead corpse lives and comes to an understanding so as to see & repent & believe. Methods may be fine but hearing and following the leading of the Holy Spirit that a display of the gospel may be presented I think is better.

It's called "Way of the Master" because Jesus used the law of GOd to reach lost souls. Have you ever listened to "Hell's Best Kept Secret"? Brother Ray gives Scripture and extreme detail as to how we need to open up the Divine law to the lost.

Do you need exact Scriptures?

------
Edit: HmmHmm brought up the scripture about the use of the law. I've seen it, and I'm looking into it. I missed it the first time around.

Quote:

Firstly, I do not believe that telling one lie makes one a liar. Telling one lie is telling one lie. A liar is someone who habitually lies. I believe when we are sanctified, we no longer habitually lie because we are born in the Spirit. Therefore we are no longer liars. That is how I believe we become blameless. I went fishing one time, does that make me a fisher? But I could overlook that. One sin is a huge deal, even if you never do it again. If fishing really offended God, even though I did it once, I should worry.

so how many lies does it take to become a liar? If we are born of the Spirit and we suddenly stop being liars, should we not stop lying altogether? We are sanctified (freed from sin) as much as we yield to God and if we don't yield our tongues, we keep on lying. To lie once is no less offensive to God than a thousand lies, either offense will land you in hell apart from Christ. for our bodies to be preserved blameless at His return, we need an impartation from Him into our inner man which will transform our soul (heart, intellect, emotions) and upon this, our bodies are kept from sinning as a result. to be blameless is not just to lay hold of the work of the Cross but to have the Cross work in your own life so that you become blameless in your person.

It is not a question of "how many lies". It is a question of character. A liar is someone who has a lying nature. Lying comes easily to a liar.

I would love to say that when we are born of the Spirit we never lie again. If you have attained this, I'm very glad for you. In my case, I stopped being a liar after salvation, but I have lied after salvation. Lying has become something repugnant to my spirit, and something that I would never let be, but it has occurred in times of weakness. As it is with all sin.

Other than that we agree. I take sin very seriously.

bro Elected (edited from Hopepurifies)

indeed i was addressing bro Elected, my apologies and thanks for pointing that out bro Hope!

Greetings in Christ's name by whose Blood we are justified. AMEN.

Sorry brother but u are wrong, justification is by faith in the Son of God, the law only condemns us, make us guilty and helpless we should make good use of the law especially to a careless sinner but standing before the mount of Sinai with the burden of sin on your shoulder and hoping that u will be justified by obeying the law it's impossible you need to walk few miles away to the cross and enter by the Door the narrow way.

dear brother i trust you did read the rest of the comment i made which you quoted me as saying:

The preaching of justification by the law is necessary

i continued on to say this (i have put the whole statement together)

[b]The preaching of justification by the law is necessary to have the contrast needed to show forth the Mercy and Goodness of our God shown us through Christ.[/b]

did you stop reading after what you quoted me as saying? The whole issue in the preaching of the law is key to indeed condemn us as you said so that the Gospel of Grace can have furtile soil in our hearts to fall upon. If man is not convicted of sin and convinced he can't keep the law, then what is Grace to him? it means nothing. Dear brother i am not saying that the law is our justification, Heaven forbid lest i make the Gospel of none effect! i am saying though that the law is needed so Grace is made plain to men as you said here:

The law can reveal the wickeness of our hearts but it is the Word of God that saves us and the Spirit that convicts and leads us to repantance and to Christ.

this is exactly what i am saying so we are in agreement bro!i would say also that to follow the law and commandments is an evidence of salvation also because we are called to follow His commandments.

Ray Comfort makes good use of the law but his message lacks unction and power at least it seems so to me.Our intentions can be very honest and true but we are in desperate need of power from on high.

what the is unction? do you mean that you don't sense a certain power in what bro Comfort preaches? Let us examine the fruit and see how many have truly been saved. it seems to me bro, the salvation of a man is an inwrought work of God which is done in secret and may not be seen on the surface right away but if we observe the new convert we shall see. Does power from on High lacking in this ministry (as you see it) mean few converts or that it doesn't tickle your fancy?

i concur that we ought to be careful of getting into a funk which is why we need to follow HOly Spirit's leadings in each situation.

Grace and Peace to you all in Christ.

I see my name at the top of your post, but I see nothing I wrote.
:-)
You're speaking to elected.

bro Elected
greetings in Christ's name.

It is not a question of "how many lies". It is a question of character. A liar is someone who has a lying nature. Lying comes easily to a liar.

So is this nature not inherent in a man to some degree? As we are sinners by nature (lying being one) are not all men then by default liars whether they do so habitually or not? Do we not all have this sin nature of which a lying nature is a component?

bro Hope (i trust this was a post you put up which i'm quoting!)

I would love to say that when we are born of the Spirit we never lie again. If you have attained this, I'm very glad for you. In my case, I stopped being a liar after salvation, but I have lied after salvation. Lying has become something repugnant to my spirit, and something that I would never let be, but it has occurred in times of weakness. As it is with all sin.

i bless God for what you said here about sin being repugnant after salvation because after we're saved, each sin we commit should rightly pierce us and cause us grief and bring us to repentance. i am not saying that i have yet to reach the goal, but i press on in God and seek Him to make me Perfect as He is. i must say that it is much harder for me to lie now than a while ago, i find sometimes if i think to lie, then no words come out or if they do they are jumbled. Weird but i bless God for it.

in another post you mentioned the only law you were under as a gentile was of your conscience and then grace. it seems to me that the law of one's conscience is of God since the conscience does convict us of wrong. As Gentiles we had no need of the law because it the conscience was always a witness to us when we do wrong for both Jew and Gentile.

Grace and Peace in His name to you all. AMEN.

Quote:

It is not a question of "how many lies". It is a question of character. A liar is someone who has a lying nature. Lying comes easily to a liar.

So is this nature not inherent in a man to some degree? As we are sinners by nature (lying being one) are not all men then by default liars whether they do so habitually or not? Do we not all have this sin nature of which a lying nature is a component?

Exactly. I think the "one sin" "one lie" comment by Living Waters is irrelevant in the light of this sin nature. Any time where we could have lied and did not before salvation was the common grace of God (He gives rain on the wicked and the righteous). But they aren't liars because they sinned one time, but because they are liars by nature. Exactly, you've helped me solidify what I was trying to say.

Yeah, I agree that the law of the conscience is of God, He made it. Our conscience tells us that God should be acknowledged, not to do meanness against our friends, etc. Like the law, the conscience needs Jesus before it is whole.

I've read their book, I've watched their DVD. It was about a year ago though.
But yes, I want exact scriptures. I know they say Jesus used the Law, I know they say it is "the way of the master" but I want to see an exact scriptures. I guess I could watch the DVD again, but I thought that given the exuberance towards this method that people would already have had them handy.
I'd like to clarify again that in no way am I against telling people they are bad. I totally want people to repent, that is major. I do believe that a man cannot come to Christ before he realizes he is evil and God is good. I also don't think that this method is horrible, and I agree that it seems to convert people. But I still wouldn't use it because I don't agree that it is a "biblical use of the law". As a gentile, the only law I've ever been under is the law of my conscience and the law of grace.
I do not see in any epistle, in any sermon in acts, or in any gospel a use of the ten commandments to convert people. But I am a young Christian, and I may have just forgotten. I don't mind if people quote the ten commandments to sinners or have it on their lawn. I'm not going to in anyway avoid using the ten commandments.

Let's look at the sermon on the mount.
This sermon not only reveals God’s divine nature, it also paints man’s condition and weighs it in contrast. The straightedge of God’s Moral Law reveals how crooked we are:

v. 3: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The unregenerate heart isn’t poor in spirit. It is proud, self-righteous, and boastful every man is pure in his own eyes

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
but the Lord weighs the spirit.
Proverbs 16:2.

Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?
Proverbs 20:6

v. 4: “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

The unsaved don’t mourn over their sin; they love the darkness and hate the light

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.”
John 3:18-21

v. 5: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

The ungodly are not meek and lowly of heart.

v. 6: “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Sinners don’t hunger and thirst after righteousness. Instead, they drink iniquity like
water

Behold, God _puts no trust in his holy ones,
and the heavens are not pure in his sight;
16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt,
a man who drinks injustice like water!
Job 15:15-16

v. 7: 7“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

The world is unable to show true compassion. It is by nature cruel and vindictive

5The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5.

Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.
Ecclesiastes 7:20

We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isaiah 64:6

v. 8: “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

The heart of the unregenerate is not pure; it is desperately wicked

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Jeremiah 17:9.

v. 9-12 9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons _of God.
10“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Those who are born again manifest the fruit of the Spirit, live godly in Christ Jesus, and therefore suffer persecution with perseverance.

v. 13–16. 13“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.
14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

A believer’s purpose on earth is to be salt and light: to be a moral influence, and to bring the light to those who sit in the shadow of death.

v. 17-18 17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished

He establishes that He didn’t come to destroy the Moral Law; not even the smallest part of it will pass away since it represents God’s standard, it is therefore a constant.

v. 19-20 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Those who teach it “shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” Its function is to destroy self-righteousness and bring sinners to the cross. The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was merely outward, but God requires truth in the inward parts

Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Psalm 51:6.

Jesus shows this by unveiling the Law’s spiritual nature.

v. 21–26 21“You have heard that it was said to those of old, _‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother _will be liable to judgment; whoever insults _his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell _of fire. 23So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

The Sixth Commandment outlaws murder. However, Jesus condemns anger “without cause,” and even evil-speaking

Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give an account thereof in the day of judgment
Matthew 12:36.

v. 27–32 27“You have heard that it was said, _‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. 31“It was also said, _‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The Seventh Commandment forbids adultery, but Jesus revealed that this also includes lust, and it even condemns divorce, except in the case of sexual sin of the spouse.

v. 33–37 33“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

Jesus opens up the Ninth Commandment, and then shows that love is the spirit of the Law..

v. 38–47 38“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But _if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, _let him have your cloak as well. 41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
43“You have heard that it was said, _‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, _what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Only when a sinner is born again through the renewal and regeneration of the Holy Spirit is he able to do this.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again _he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:3

v. 48 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Without the righteousness of Christ he cannot be perfect as his Father in heaven is perfect. The Law demolishes self-righteousness leaving him undone and condemned. His only hope is faith and repentance through grace as demonstrated by the cross of Jesus Christ

Ray makes it perfectly clear in 'Hell's Best Kept Secret' that the inspiration came from the story of the Rich man coming to Jesus.

Mark 10
17And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth." 21And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

The Rich man came to Jesus wanting to know what must be done to inherit eternal life. Jesus didn't tell him to repeat a prayer, no he took him to the moral law of God to show him his sinfulness.

That is Ray's message that I believe is almost completely lost in our day. God has a righteous standard that we have broken. We deserve punishment for breaking His law and justice will be carried out on us, unless we cling to Jesus.

Ray's message is the Law because the Law points to Christ. It is by the law that sin becomes exceedingly sinful (Romans 7:13). It makes no sense to tell a person that they are a sinner, unless you explain to them why they are a sinner.

No!
I must speak strongly against how intrcssr83 used the Beatitudes.
That is horrible. Jesus did not preach the Beatitudes to condemn. He was delivering the New Covenant of grace....

Some scriptures have been mentioned. I haven't ignored them. I am studying all the scriptures on the use of the law. There are many. Of course, I already believe that there is a lawful use of the law. I'm trying to determine whether the ten commandments + Jesus's additions are what is meant.

Ray makes it perfectly clear in 'Hell's Best Kept Secret' that the inspiration came from the story of the Rich man coming to Jesus.

That is strange.

Jesus said to obey the law. He wasn't saying that to condemn the fellow. He was just saying thats what you do. And when the young ruler said he had kept them, unlike Ray or Kirk, he didn't press the issue. He didn't say "of course you have, don't you know adultery is lust" or "you had to have lied once!". Instead Jesus moved on from the law. "Sell all you have and give to the poor" is not the law. That's new. That is what sent the ruler away sorrowful.

This is not a refutation of the use of the law to convict. 1 Timothy says there is a lawful use of the law. However, this text shows that Jesus did not use the WoTM technique.

Edit: I edited this post because I used a sarcastic word.

Jesus said to obey the law. He wasn't saying that to condemn the fellow. He was just saying thats what you do. And when the young ruler said he had kept them, unlike Ray or Kirk, he didn't press the issue. He didn't say "of course you have, don't you know adultery is lust" or "you had to have lied once!". Instead Jesus moved on from the law. "Sell all you have and give to the poor" is not the law. That's new. That is what sent the ruler away sorrowful.

He went away sorrowful because he saw himself coming up short of the requirements. That is what the WOTM is all about; exposing the fact that sinners fall short...that they are guilty in light of God’s holy and just requirements. It’s not about getting them saved on the spot; it’s about cracking stony hearts.

And one other thing…it’s harder now than ever. It went from adultery to lust, from murder to hate; Jesus really upped the requirements.

As a gentile, the only law I've ever been under is the law of my conscience and the law of grace.

This seems to be a confusing of terms and application.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

All of chapter 3 might be reconsidered.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for [b][u]ye[/u][/b] are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The unsaved are most certainly under the law and as was pointed out earlier the law is not abolished but fulfilled, furthermore neither are we exempt either by this ...

From Albert Barnes,

[b]For we are not under law[/b] - We who are Christians are not subject to that law where sin is excited, and where it rages unsubdued. But it may be asked here, What is meant by this declaration? Does it mean that Christians are absolved from all the obligations of the law? I answer,

(1)\tThe apostle does not affirm that Christians are not bound to obey the moral law. The whole scope of his reasoning shows that he maintains that they are. The whole structure of Christianity supposes the same thing; compare Mat_5:17-19.

(2)\tthe apostle means to say that Christians are not under the law as legalists, or as attempting to be justified by it. They seek a different plan of justification altogether: and they do not attempt to be justified by their own obedience. The Jews did; they do not.

(3)\tit is implied here that the effect of an attempt to be justified by the Law was not to subdue sins, but to excite them and to lead to indulgence in them.

Justification by works would destroy no sin, would check no evil propensity, but would leave a man to all the ravages and riotings of unsubdued passion. If, therefore, the apostle had maintained that people were justified by works, he could not have consistently exhorted them to abandon their sins. He would have had no powerful motives by which to urge it; for the scheme would not lead to it. But he here says that the Christian was seeking justification on a plan which contemplated and which accomplished the destruction of sin; and he therefore infers that sin should not have dominion over them.

[b]But under grace[/b] - Under a scheme of mercy, the design and tendency of which is to subdue sin, and destroy it. In what way the system of grace removes and destroys sin, the apostle states in the following verses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It can take considerable time to work through all of Romans until it works unfettered in us and begins to make more spiritual than logical sense if I could put it that way. One notice brother and it may well apply to others is that on one hand there is the appealing to the Holy Spirit to guide in any given situation while at the same time the word "preference" is mentioned simultaneously.

Something I have been chewing on and writing a bit about is the notice that the word of God is [i]in[/i] us, if it truly is in ever expanding measure. Being faithful to the Scriptures and being faithful to the Lord are one and the same. What the Holy Spirit will use is that which is already present and that which is written. A bit off the line here perhaps but the 'use' of anything seems very dependent on these facts and the timing, verbalization or non-verbalization in any given moment entirely upon how much resource there is to draw from, how willing we are to internal listening and that which we truly understand.

bro TJServant
Greetings in Christ's name.

He went away sorrowful because he saw himself coming up short of the requirements.

The rich young ruler didn't go away sorrowful because he came up short on the requirements. Christ commended him for keeping the law. The man was a pillar of the society and had fulfilled the law completely, he was like a pharisee insamuch as the law was concerned.

He went away sad because he didn't want to let go of his riches. There is another rich man who is mentioned in the next chapter of Luke after the story of the rich young ruler. His name was Zacchaeus and he was quite the opposite to this man but he repented and salvation came to his house said our Lord. our Lord has shown me something about these two men and as He leads i shall share it on the boards or if you like i can email it to you.

Grace and Peace unto you in His name. AMEN.

Ironman is saying exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks :-)

But the real reason I replied is because I'd like to remind everyone that I am a sister, not a brother.

tjservant wrote:

He went away sorrowful because he saw himself coming up short of the requirements.

IRONMAN wrote:

The rich young ruler didn't go away sorrowful because he came up short on the requirements.Christ commended him for keeping the law. The man was a pillar of the society and had fulfilled the law completely, he was like a pharisee insamuch as the law was concerned.
He went away sad because he didn't want to let go of his riches.

Jesus sees he is sincere in his pursuit and it says he loved him. He loved him enough to tell him what he needed to hear, pointing to the one thing hindering him. The ruler said to Jesus what he thought he kept, Jesus told him what he did not. He probably thought he kept it all and would be commended, that there would be nothing to hinder him. However, Jesus puts his finger on just one thing--“Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” Notice that Jesus pointed to a requirement of the law for the poor, that was not part of the 10 commandments but in the law of Moses. He also told the man to deny himself and follow Him. The Bible states that possession of wealth involves responsibility - to be compassionate to the poor.

He knew that this man was looking for a way to earn his salvation on his own terms. He may have thought that the teacher would give him a specific task or work to carry out once, and that would confirm to him eternal life. But Jesus gave him something that required him to humble himself and bring his life under the authority of Christ. Instead, Jesus drove him to the law, he gave him a requirement that went to the heart of the issue: his MONEY and the rich young man’s desire to retain control of his life. You shall not covet was the part that he did not keep, this because evident from his reaction to what Jesus said that he must do.

Greetings in Christ's name by whose blood we are washed and made acceptable before the Father.

[i][b]sister[/b][/i]Hopepurifies
now that we have that sorted out :-P This is the second or 3rd time this has happened to me on these boards!

thanks for sorting that out

Grace and Peace unto you sis!

bro TJ
as our Lord leads i shall start another thread about this issue so that we don't take from this one since there is much to learn from the episode of the rich young ruler and his encounter with Christ.

Grace and Peace in Christ to you

The unsaved are most certainly under the law

But crsschk, you have neglected Romans chapter 2 which deals with this very issue. Paul makes it clear that those not under the Law are a law unto themselves, having the law written on their heart. This law is different from the law of Moses.

All are under a law, but it is not the law of Moses.

Nile

But crsschk, you have neglected Romans chapter 2 which deals with this very issue.

Ah, not neglect, just started further down in. Was looking to emphasize the difference in [i]who[/i] it is Paul is speaking to when he states;

"For we are not under law"

May have managed to confuse the matter by doing so however. Pretty sure there are some previous discussions here that flesh this all out much better.

Right, I understand what you're saying. But which law are the gentiles under? They are clearly not under the Law of Moses, but are under some other law. So the question is not whether gentiles are under law, but [i]which[/i] law they are under.

But which law are the gentiles under? They are clearly not under the Law of Moses, but are under some other law. So the question is not whether gentiles are under law, but [i]which[/i] law they are under.

This might serve as a backdrop;

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/lawmoses.htm