Where does American Christianity End?

This is nonsense I belive. If you are a man and you get bored in the house of God , then get saved for the love of God.

Many church leaders would like to do a better job reaching men, but don't know how, says a bestselling Christian author. But a new program isn't the answer, he's adds.

Related
250,000 Christian Men to Re-Ignite Old Flame
How do you attract and pump up men for Jesus on Sundays?

David Murrow, author of Why Men Hate Going to Church, suggests Sunday worship services with a masculine accent.

"Go for the Guys Sunday" is a newly released action plan for churches to take the first step to assure their service resonates with men, who are often bored in or absent from the pews.

Men are the world's largest unreached people group, according to Church for Men, founded by Murrow. They currently make up less than 40 percent of church attendants at a typical worship service. Murrow argues that services are built around feminine values with worship songs that are sweet and sentimental and sermons emphasizing the home, marriage and family.

Men need more masculine imagery and more opportunities for men to use their skills, he says. They have their own language, culture and unique needs.

Traditionally, a church that offers men's ministry hosts breakfasts, outreach and other programs. But when Marty Granger - who will be heading the upcoming large-scale men's assembly Stand in the Gap 2007 at the National Mall in October - asks if churches have "a ministry to men" rather than a men's ministry, church leaders often get puzzled.

"I say, 'Do you recognize the needs of men, do you actually work on your worship services and your programs being masculine friendly and masculine language?'" Granger would ask them. "Oftentimes, that's where the disconnect is."

Church for Men encourages a different approach. Although a men's ministry may flourish as men act masculine only in that context, when it comes to attending church on Sunday, men often have to "check their manhood at the door."

Rather than a separate men's ministry, Church for Men promotes the integration of a masculine spirit with church life.

A "Go for the Guys Sunday" would meet the culture and needs of men that Murrow believes have been ignored too long.

When hosting a "Go for the Guys Sunday," especially as Father's Day approaches, one suggestion is to decorate the sanctuary around a chosen theme – such as "Great Outdoors Sunday" – so men feel at home and not uncomfortable on cushiony pews with fresh flowers and quilted banners traditionally inside a church.

And shorter is better when reaching men. Church for Men recommends Sunday worship services be wrapped up in one hour or less.

Worship songs should also have lyrics that men can relate to. While hymnals are full of anthems for men, today's praise songs, Murrow argues, sound more like love songs. Men prefer upbeat songs and songs that do not repeat over and over.

Avoid the overtly evangelistic message, the organization recommends. The special service is designed to change men's perceptions, that it's boring or irrelevant, of church.

And the special service will not only pique the interest of men but also of women.

"Here's the wonderful truth about women: they are comfortable with guy things," argues Church for Men. And with one out of five married women worshiping on Sundays without their husbands, most women will gladly try something new in order to attract their husbands, sons and fathers to church.

Bottom line: give men some attention. "Men have been neglected for years. They're bone dry - but give them a little personal attention and they grow like mad," according to Church for Men.

Churches that have more men in the church (60 percent or more) are more likely to be growing than those dominated by women membership, a study by Hartford Seminary found last December.

"We're hoping churches will recapture the spirit of masculine involvement in the churches," says Granger

this is very sad!
in His love
charlene

What is the real reason whay men are not coming and not leading? they need to be broken for their God, a man after God's hearts. God is Holy, we are to fear him.

Hi Krispy,

I agree with you that this is just another flavour of a seeker friendly, flesh-pleasing church service idea, BUT what do we do about the fact that there IS a whole bunch of men missing in the church...the single 25 - 45 year olds.

Why isn't this demographic being reached? We, the church, and particularly the leaders, need to ask ourselves that question. I once heard on a radio program that according to statistics approximately 50% of the population is single and of that the split between male and female were approximately even yet this is not reflected in the church population( btw...this was a British radio show, but I would guess that these stats would be similar for North America.) I have been going to church for about 20 years and have visited most denominations and see the same thing...one single guy for every seven to ten single women.

What bothers me the most is that the leaders don't even blink at this. Though I don't consider myself "desperate" as the Lord has given me the grace to walk as a single woman, I do occasionally feel disheartened at what I see. And I know the pain and frustration of friends in the same boat. But it is like pastors out there don't even see this as an issue. And there is no acknowledgement of the quiet grief some single women who wanted a husband and a family but never did and now it's too late experience.

I would expect that the men should be reaching other men, correct? So, my question is, are they? I doesn't appear so.

Sonja

But we still won't go to the church. I'm keeping my mouth shut on this one.

These jokers love to talk about when Paul went to Greece and he related to the Greeks on their level by talking about their gods. But they fail to mention that he also told them the truth plain and directly. Paul never shied away from proclaiming the gospel.

I have heard such things as the churches need to take out some of the flowers and add a deer head for the men because the decor was so feminine. I have to admit, I have never once thought about it before I heard that.

I am believing more and more each day that the very thing that our churches desperately need is the very thing many of these seeker friendly type men are trying to strip from the meetings; i.e. good ole' fashioned [i]Holy Ghost Conviction.[/i]

It's the quality of the men preaching the cross. Puff and protest all you want. We've been Dobsonized and MacArhurized to death. Look over the landscape. real holiness.

Karsten

1Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

It's the quality of the men preaching the cross.

This is where I chime in to say a lamentable, "agreed". I can't speak regarding MacArthur, I haven't heard him, but I can say this...

I am 22 years old. I was raised in a church, graduated from a bible college, and served as missionary and youth pastor... before I had ever repented and been converted. Not one man ever confronted me on the filthy music, corrupt shows, and idle idiocy I indulged in because they were all in it too. I don't speak with maliciousness, but with deep fear for many of them and great sorrow. I never knew a man that forsook his paycheck and vain, pleasure loving friends to please Christ. My pastor harped on the biblical ligitimacy of tithes, and never demonstrated scriptural tears over sin. I knew no one who fasted weekly, read for hours daily, remained pure from TV's pollution.

In short, the parade of men who lead and instructed me and those at my church and college were, it seems, (and I say again with fear) somewhat well-intentioned men who loved the pleasures of entertainment too much to know the power of the Spirit.

At 21 years old I heard Paul Washer, Paris Reidhead, and Ravenhill, all in one month. I repented and was converted. I received the filling of the Spirit and have pursued Christ with a new nature ever since.

Praise God for holy, simple men.

I really resent this guy for saying that these are "feminine values". I like to think of myself as a man's man... and I love my beautiful wife and my 4 incredible kids. I am totally sold out to them. Does that make me feminine? If so... give me a dress.

Good stuff Krispy. The problem is evident enough the solution is utterly absurd. If I might and with apologies before hand to the sisters here, there are men here, right here and my hunch is that the averages would over weigh the consensus prevalent in the numbers out there by a pretty good margin. This is not a church but it might give off the possibility that the messages are what true men after Gods own heart are after.

It is difficult to split the sexes on this because our sisters are just as truly after Gods own heart as anyone. But since this has it's bent around the issue with men ...

This is certainly a load of rubbish. Think someone gave me a book by John Eldridge surrounding some similar ideas and couldn't bring myself to partake of it, flipping through some of it briefly.

I think if we had some godly men in the pulpit preaching similar messages that are found here, the men would come because they are based on truth and reality. The ... elements of whatever it is men are supposed to be according to the world and that which is what was designed by God are blurred and confused and a great deal of that has to do with this strange effort to 'make' things palpable to every taste and every whim and every demographic and on and on the marketing approach goes. It seems to me if they would just quit talking about it and making all these fleshly unprayed for humanistic impulses the mode of operation ...

The scriptures are replete with gut retching realities that even the cleverest horror film or the craftiest drama couldn't touch, but it has become something other, so much so that Jesus is made to be ... Oh goodness, we know all this.

Not everything here is off as was mentioned on the premise it is just that it has gone so far south that it becomes an effort of overcompensation Integrity, character, [i]suffering[/i], humility ... patience, virtue ... these are virtues that have been stripped of their meaning and replaced with hijinks and alternatives. [i]Chivalry[/i], any one remember this word? There is great power in 'weakness' as many of us could attest to and as the scriptures point out and I am not setting aside just Whose power we are speaking of here. Promise Keepers has attempted some of this and I don't really follow or necessarily endorse much of it as it would just as well tie in with some of the similar notions expressed here ... too over blown in many aspects, too theatrical and flash and bang and all the other things thought needful to 'draw' men in. But, at least there is an appeal for men to be accountable and responsible in the realm of family and faith, to some degree ... it's a start perhaps.

But where a lot of this gets all off track is in bringing to bear all of the scriptures, the whole counsel of God. The flavors and presentations and manipulation and constant counterbalancing everything according to the tastes of the world of mere men and their schemes is that very ...

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

It is that "I think" has trumped "Thus sayeth the Lord" and it is backfiring incredibly. It is just as difficult to generalize every man but I think most men don't want to be patronized or pacified even if it is to appeal to their masculinity. Fake is fake and a sale is a sale, lures are for fishing and the kind of fishing we are after, for the souls of these men to be brought to their very knees isn't going to be accomplished by trying to pull the wool over their eyes or by using some cheap lure to get them biting. This is just more fodder for even more compartmentalization.

You want to get the men's attention, [i]preach![/i]

It's almost funny but still remember seeing the "Real men love Jesus" bumper stickers and quite often in my realm of construction in those days. And it evaded me partially though brought a curiosity to see these hard working men, tough, rough even, the worlds primary concept of what constitutes them (there is of course biblical warrant and truth in this) and still I would have smirked a bit underneath despite that, thinking that it didn't square, that Christian 'men' were effeminate and ... weak ... soft. Still, something intuitively told me they were right and I was wrong.

Weak yes! In the truest meaning of the word but hardly associated with the attachments that even the church has laid upon them. The strongest men in the world do love Jesus and they are real men indeed.

Oh why not, there is some unfinished thought in this ... There is still this grand misconception that conversion brings an ease and not a bloody battle. Temptations don't get easier because we are now free to deny them, the attacks are only stepped up and more sinister and from every available angle and scheme of the devil ... Now we [i]know[/i] some things. We know enough of our condition to last the remainder of this life in the fight against our own selves. Not about to get into the whole of deliverance and Who does what and how but the scripture is true and accurate about just who and what it is we fight against. Principalities and powers has become too glib and possibly over used to miss the reality that it expresses. Have been giving a lot of thought towards just what constitutes the atmosphere we find ourselves in at any given time and day to day circumstances. Out in the world, in the business world, wherever it is, even the Church itself! It is hostility even in the pleasntries. The dichotomy between that and the prayer closet, in close contact with the Savior in intimacy ... another retched out of it's context word. [i]Sheep amongst wolves[/i]. It is sheer warfare in the spiritual realm and we are spiritual people, not disembodied, compartmentalized, abstract notion holders. The nobility of a Christian is lost in the mire of the compromise at core levels, the surface having overtaken import and importance, is that not what this whole business is about? How to reach men by appealing to those things thought make a man? This is the most incredible life possible and the only real life there is and we would have it cauterized and compromised so that no one is offended and everyone is left dull one moment or flashed with excitement the next and duped into thinking this is what it is all about.

My, a bit of a soap box here, not particularly beside myself at all just ... bemused, again.

My question is this, if men are not coming why?
If women are coming why?
I don't think it because of the message. or the worship
Over the past two years God has put this heavy on my heart. Why men are not men but boys. Why?
Why is the question, so many women are asking. where are the men, where the men not willing to lead?

Could the promble be in the lack of older men, the leader of the Church not reaching these men?

There every few Church that have bible study just for men, not men's outing or eating, but digging deep in the word. Or training for young boys how to be men, and they are ask to do things that men do. I have seen every few older men hanging out one on one with the younger guys. I know many older women ready to meet with younger women. I have had many older who I met with. The Church I went to was quick to start prayer groups with the women, but not the guys. The leader are lacking? But my brother in the Lord had a hard finding just one older man to meet with him. Why?

I think the lack traning is missing. These younger man, don't know what there role is, they don't what it means to seek after God. they have to grow and be men. We are just playing games with them. We need the men in Church to come beside them and teach in the ways of the Lord.
and when this happens, they too will reach to other younger boys in the Church.

But with Childern that is the father job. But the Church can come beside and help them?

I think we need to preach the Gosple, and willing to die to share it. To train men who understand the cost of Christ.
Do men understand the cost?
what about prayer, are the men praying, without prayer they are powerless? To many prideful men, who want thing there way, and not God;s.
I have seen that alot of guys in the Church don't lead, because they have never been ask, or ever told it is something they should do. There are lots of guys who brought up in home with father who don't know the Lord.

If men are not coming then, we need to preach the gosple. The gosple saves, and will bring men.
who will want to worship our God

We have a job when new men come, reach out to them.
In his love
charlene

Where the Holy Spirit is - thats where people(men and women) will be. If we could just have one tru touch of the power that happened at pentecost it would change everything. i agree with most of the posts here. If repentace/holiness were preached (or Gods whole word) were preached in love from a person filled with the Holy Ghost who prayed and fasted my what a change there would be....! Instead of all the pandering to youth/men/women if the person in the pulpit would reach to God the people in the pew would as well.

I think a lot of the reason men are not acting like men anymore is because our society as castrated them. Crude, I know, but true. Scripture sometimes uses crude parallels too.

Cost. The sense of this is altogther missing because 'by grace you have been saved' and the Protestant line absolutely correct has been exagerated to proportions never intended. Where now it is easy and painless, quickly remedied and the whole host of notions characterised by OSAS, not to worry over examine yourself ...
The push is to tag and bag them rather than exalt God and give up and over the creature life in endurance and self reputating effort. How else the application to place the man to ape our cliche' over them crying out "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

It is indeed the meassge that is stripped of it's inherant power by the wiles of mere men. Musing on this whole thing the verse;

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

How is this completley missed in this ideal? Would we expect men to give up to that which is greater than them by kowtowing to their percieved needs of 'manly' attributes?

This is completely unscriptural... but we cant blame the women completely. I blame the men for letting go of the reigns. Men have turned it over.

It is very much the fact that the discussion has turned to 'where are the men?' that ought to wake up the church that it is too much like the world for these same men to take any notice of it. And that is because the Church has by and large replaced it's exaltation of the Lord as King and ruler over the hearts of men and drawn it's attention to [i]pleasing[/i] them rather than pleasing God. All the deep, searching truths presented here, the Tozers of days gone past exemplifying the Holiness of the Lord, the true reverential [i]fear[/i] of a Holy God, the turning away of eternity for today's fleeting thrills, the fact of death biting at the heels, hell's wide open gaping mouth swallowing up it's inhabitants and the crossless, painless, costless redemtion made fodder for clever marketering and easy acceptance ... Pontificating? Or as our brother put it 'Puff and protest' ... perhaps, but it is still the gut retching, actually maybe that is it more than I know, the lack of it!

Robert is correct about the need for some good old fashioned Holy Ghost conviction. Somehow we have to get this thing turned away and off the eyes of men and get them to put their eyes on Christ, make their brains sweat, their hearts break and give up this notion that we can create or manufacture it to come to pass. If we would just stick to the text ....

Maybe the problem is this generations idea of what makes a man.. There is a bibical description of what makes a true man, David's charge to his son Solomon...1 kings 2
1.Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying,

2.I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man;

3.And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

It takes true courage to be a man like this, to do the will of God will cost you everything, everything that seems to us good, but will give you true lif. If a man models his life on these things he will be challenged to excel in what is truely noble and will know himself a man. He will not need outward things to prove to himself that he is a man, he will know that he is.

Jesus came to reveal what a true man was meant to be , He came to restore what we were created for, to return to us our lost estate.. what a man would have been before the fall into the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, pride of life. If we look at Jesus we see the true image of a man. Honour, purity, bravery, nobility, courageous, everything true and good. Strong enough to care and willing to die for what he lived for, others...

Have you ever noticed that when you watch a movie when men are fighting for a good cause and one gives his life for his friends, when you see true nobility of spirit, you are lifted up with admiration? Something inside you is exultant, O, well done, your inmost man cries!

Maybe we are not showing them truth, maybe they do not want to hear because something less than true manhood is being portrayed as christianity?

Maybe we should stir their conscience by showing them the absoulute, the only man that has ever walked this earth, show them Jesus, and say to them, can you be a man like this? Can you walk as he walked? Do you have the courage of true godliness? Is your spirit noble as his was?Can you be a true man?

Is the reason for this great falling away that the way, truth and life are not being taught?

Interesting how this topic is a buried frustration in not only the church but also society. All one need to do is raise the question in a men's meeting "Is the church too feminized?" and you will recieve unanimous agreement it has been...and also unanimous confusion as to why or what to do about it.

I certainly agree with what has been said so far. Liberal policies (from both partiesl) in this country have educated, conditioned, and downright intidimidated manhood right out of our society. Just look at this generation of effeminate presidential candidates. Could you imagine even a 'liberal' from the first part of this century standing next to his contemporary counterparts? Relatively speaking, even 'unreligous' new deal men like Roosevelt and Truman had substance, had measurable achievements to talk about, and a length of moral character by which to lead the country. Today's candidates have no real world achievements except graduate degrees, the abililty to articulate their feelings and the only moral concern they care about is global warming.

The baby boomer generation has turned every issue into matter of preference... even the church comes in cappicino flavors. And after the baby boomers are thinned out, we are going to have to find our leadership from a generation of narcissistic sensual mama's boys who believe someone else is obligated to pay their way for them.

I also want to bring up the topic of non-resistance...which is a seperate but I think related issue. It is related in that I want to make sure that the conversation of true Christian peace is not confused with the leftist mentality of avoiding personal responsibility. I find that many liberal evangelicals are finding bedfellows within absurd idealogical movements simply because they superficially agree with their rhetoric, without considering the spirit behind the words.

We all would like to be more sensitive and loving...but let's face it; weak men always seeking material ease, moral relativity, and social popularity don't know the meaning of love.

And now that I've vented my manly frustrations, I am going to have my lunch: a half portion of grilled salmon on a fresh bed of spinach leaves with fat free vinegarette, a fruit yogurt cup, and a cup of hazelnut coffee with imitation sugar.

MC

I'm back from my lunch. They didn't have the fruit cup so I was forced to order the lobster bisque. I was a little dissapointed.

Now where were we...oh yeah;...where are all the men, fired by adversity, tempered with sacrifice, and hardened with endurance, at in our society?

I sure would like to know!

Now about those liberals again. As I was saying earlier...

MC

It takes a strong back to shoulder the burden of an entire culture of misunderstood scriptures, to tell the professing Western Church at large that it is grossly wrong. If my spine is not that hard yet, the posture of kneeling will do much to strengthen the soul for leadership.

There can only have been one time so devoid of truth as now: the years directly proceeding the coming of Christ. Into that system of heresy and formalism, false comfort and material security, our Savior came in the power of the Spirit bearing the scriptures with grace.

This is our hour to experience the life and ministry of Christ, lived through us.

I wholeheartedly expect a crucifix within this lifetime for anyone who teaches truth in approval of the Spirit, with power.

God give us men who fear God and hate sin.

How long, Lord? How long until this worldliness is purged from your Church?
I'm afraid of what will happen to the Church in America if it doesn't repent.

I'll be weeping.

we must each look at each of ourselves and see
where we are wrong. where have not reached out? where have we not loved the younger men in the Church? where have we lack in our roles? Not to just talk about it, but what can we do today to change or help towards change? I agree men are at wrong and leaders, and yes women have taken their roles. they are in wrong in some way.

I know I have been wrong taking mens role I have seen how wrong it is. I longer ever be in the role of a man But alots of women feel the same as me. They desire with all their hearts for men to lead. They want it long for it. But the don't step up, so they think well I guess I will do it. Were the women are wrong, we not take the place, but go to the leaders and say we want a man, we will not lead, this a need please meet it. I think women should come besides men and pray for them. We need to start with the young, Traning then to be men!!! This is a issuse that each person needs to go before God and ask what we can do, or what we haven't done. Yes women have taken roles of men, But men don't use that has somthing to get the fact you haven't step up and lead. I think women and men don't really know their roles today. The world is not giving them good role modles to follow. So we need to teach young women and men, even older what our roles are.

And of course sin, each women men, leaders are in sin. We need to ask God to help to know what to do.
we are at war. and we must fight.
MAy God restore womenhood and manhood back in our Churchs.
There is joy being who God made you, if you are a guy or a lady, we to take joy in who he made us to be. and not try to take aother role.
In his love charlene

I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man;

Do you have the courage of true godliness? Is your spirit noble as his was?Can you be a true man?

Is the reason for this great falling away that the way, truth and life are not being taught?

It certainly is the greatest part of it no?

MC ... as usual, well said and thanks for the mixed humor there, brightened my day. Just got done polishing off a cold leftover hamburger, one of those oddities that my dad got me appreciative of a long time ago ... amongst other culinary delicacies :-)

Hi everyone.

Pardon me for not reading through here before posting. I noticed a qoute in brother Mike's previous post here and it made me think of something I heard Major Ian Thomas say in a message recently that has really stuck with me.

He said, in these or similar words that, [i]it takes God, to be a man[/i].

Here is the message I recall it from, it has really stuck with me, the qoute anyway....

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=796&commentView=itemComments]Major Ian Thomas - Part 1[/url]

"It takes God, to be a man."

MC ... as usual, well said and thanks for the mixed humor there, brightened my day. Just got done polishing off a cold leftover hamburger,

Sounds tasty!

Thank Mike. I recognize that I am benifitting from all of us being familiar with each other's sensibilities...I think if I was newer that my thoughts might have seemed confusing. :-) But knowing me as you do, it made perfect sense!

Just today I was hearing a story noting that all but the youngest of the WWII veterans are passing away from us. The ebbing of that generation saddens me deeply. Not that they were perfect..far from it but their lives added honor to our country.

My own post reflected the two sides of our generation. Though we have not survived a shared defining experience, many of us have walked individual journeys of manhood in the Lord...He has been faithful to us, to discipline us, and to raise us up. Yet, we are standing upon the shoulders of those who sacrified for us. It's a principle I've seen in business...the first generation of entrepenuers remember not only every client won, but every wall that was painted in the office, every picture that was hung, every lamp that was purchased. Then with each following generation of employees, comes an increase in complaining, whining, and arrogance. Eventually, the business must be restructured or fail.

This is how I see the Church. Any character failings we men have is not because women have taken over, or because our Lord has not been paying attention to us, but because we are coming only to collect a paycheck.

lots of women feel the same as me. They desire with all their hearts for men to lead. They want it long for it. But the don't step up, so they think well I guess I will do it.

Sister...be careful what you pray for. You may have to live with it. ;-)

It is quite a sight to see a weak or hesitant man relax into a more natural role of providing strength and covering. I say 'relax' because, contrary to popular misconception, I think it is exausting to be a wimp. A wimp has to be conscious of every one's opinion...and that takes alot of mental strain. Yet, often the first people to complain when men are comfortable being men are...well women and of course men still straining under the yoke of public opinion.

Thankfully God's yoke is lighter then that of many women. And He is indeed faithful to men, which does not mean criticism or coddling but truthful discipline. The Lord's discipline makes a man happiest. A man's heart is never satisfied with his own fine reputation or self pity, but is most glad when tasting some of God's character in his heart. I thankfully note that even if we are pampered today, our heavenly Father will not leave us in our diapers forever. Unlike many parents, God's love is intrusive and meddlesome.

It is my experience when we first become stirred by the Spirit of God we often covet spiritual gifts and offices. Yet, with a little experience we find soon enough that character is a deeper blessing from God then spiritual gifts and offices. Afterall a person may recieve wisdom from God, but if they happen to be foolish what will they do with the wisdom given? When we were children we thought like children, but once we become men we put our toys away. After awhile some men learn to not even covet some preconception of great character by which they can think highly of themselves, but only to desire humility. They act as if they may never have it, but they desire it. Humility trusts Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. If the Lord sees fit, he can certainly form His character in us. This is a particular peace we can find in our sorrows. In fact the hope that God is making us into men comforts us even when our sorrows are from bad character revealed. Even this is God's grace to his sons.

So if we would be manful for God in public, we should be mindful of God in private. In private is where the spiritual battles seem to rage most...not just lust, but also pride, fear, greed, gluttony...the whole kitten kaboodle can hit us in private. A mature Christian man is not innocent of evil, as much he is victorious over it. My two cents is that the fear of God not only leads to wisdom, but is also a prelude to developing lasting character, which is the only lasting path of manhood. At least this is what I try to convey to my own boys. I think they will be better men then myself.

One a side note...one of the things I always wince at in this conversation is when women try to 'understand' and to be 'supportive' of mens' need to be men. Please women...this only makes it worse. When you consult some book about how to make your husband feel more respected or offer some other concerned condescension, you are only reinforcing the motherlike power you have over him. Trust me...no healthy man would either write nor read such a book. He does not need a wife that is critical or one that is protecting him...he needs a wife with Godly character!:-)

MC

God's love is intrusive and meddlesome.

There is a lot of great truth here, thanks again MC

lots of women feel the same as me. They desire with all their hearts for men to lead. They want it long for it. But the don't step up, so they think well I guess I will do it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sister...be careful what you pray for. You may have to live with it.

are you saying this is a bad, ways or not?

are you saying that women are wips to men?

"Lord's discipline makes a man happiest" I agree

One a side note...one of the things I always wince at in this conversation is when women try to 'understand' and to be 'supportive' of mens' need to be men. Please women...this only makes it worse.

Wouldn't a wife want to understand her husband to better love him and pray for him? Ways to support is only by prayer? What is a women to do?
A women is to win their husband over without a word. But does that mean she is not to say anything? I know that this might be a battle for thee men, but it does effect the women to. Isn't a women suppose to be supportive? maybe I don't fully understand you.

He does not need a wife that is critical or one that is protecting him...he needs a wife with Godly character

I agree full hearty, a critical spirit isn't good. maybe that's one of our struggles we face. It is both of them to grow to have Godly
Characters.

In his love
charlene

Hi Charlene,

maybe I don't fully understand you

That is understandable and I apologize. I was espousing in a very general way...mainly because I didn't want to talk about particular circumstances with universal assumptions but to simply make the link (as I see it) between "manhood" and character. This is all I was saying, without trying to imply anything else.

As contemplation for myself I wanted another go at this important topic tonight...maybe I'll fare better this time!

There are cries for passion, and calls for power today but I sincerely feel these are all fruitless searches without character. It sounds simple...but I am a simple guy!

Not to take an unexpected left turn right away, but bear with me as I put a plug in for our cessasionist brothers here. We may all agree they are wrong in their understanding of New Testament giftings of the Spirit, but one thing they do very well is measure the gifts through character rather then 'annointing.' To them a prophet is simply someone who has a deeply truthful character and is helpless to speak contrary to this character. All in all, this is not such a bad definition when compared to some of the abberations we witness in our pentecostal and charismatic chuches.

It is a sad observation that many in the church, even 'leaders', act as if they have two natures...a carnal one and a regenerated one. From this framework they believe they are free to pursue more of God's annointing without sound character. They might even refer to this dualism in the apologetics of their ministry...explaining afterall that they are only saved by grace, that they are mere sinful men who made themselves available to God and other such arguments.

This is why I prefer to keep things simple. Let's not talk about men finally standing up in the church and assumning their place of influence and leadership, becoming spiritual leaders... if they can't even discipline their own passions.

So sister, this was my point. If there is Godly influence building up in a man he will not be able to hide it even if he tried...it will become irresistable in my experience. If a man seems to have no life spiritually it is not because he lacks the confidence or desire to lead...it is because he has not tended to his inner life with God. Even in my own small example, my time with the Lord results in influence I am often not even aware of. I am not a leader at all, or even an outgoing person or an administrator. However, as I do not live on an island, and so when I come in contact with people there is small and occasional impacts. I am a tiny example...I know of some men here in Columbus whose lives are a constant outflowing of life in business, family, and church. Life reproduces...it's what happens. Even weeds break through slabs of concrete...it is not a matter of will or of passion, but of the character within even the smallest living thing.

Therefore, as a matter of course, a man's influence in ministry is linked to the character of the man. I admit there are many days when I frankly wish this wasn't true...that God would work celestially to defeat sin in the cosmos and not terrestially in my character. Yet, as EM Bounds stated, "The Church is looking for better methods, but God is looking for better men."

I reinforce this point not because I have lived as a paragon of character, as this would be a horrible tasting lie to my mouth. Indeed, my wife interceded for me durng a season of rebellion, but to my undeserved honor she always treated me as a 'man of God.' I cannot explain why she did this, before the Lord and other women, except that she was seeking first the Kingdom of God in her own character and trusting God to find me! And that he did while I was the most undeserving.

I humbly and somewhat reluctantly push this point of Godly character, (which is more then a single flash point of decision but a thousand points of decision to walk with God,) because I have experimented with both kinds of Christianity. I have seen that if a man asserts his boldness and leadership in the church without character he can become a shame to the Lord. I have learned this...but praise God I can happily state that when a man seeks first the Kingdom in his walk before God, the outward influence we desire both fades and yet surfaces just the same! It is my observation that life reproduces life.

are you saying that women are wips to men?

My point was about character, and not about presumption of leadership or power. Character is putting on the New Man. (and not taking him off every day like a costume!) In my thinking mistreating women is the clearest sign that a man has not put on the New Man. Such a man should be confronted and eventually excluded from fellowship. Not because there is no hope for him...on the contrary his sin can be wonderfully dealt with at the cross. So he is to be excluded from the fellowship of desciples, because he first excludes himself from descipleship. There is no reason to be tolerant of spousal abuse.

I say all of this with an eager ear for discussion with other men and women on the subject. In summary, my small point is that we men and women cannot think to ask men to rise up and lead in the church on any other premise then to simply be the man they have become in private before the Lord. Every tree bears it's fruit in due time...let's not think we can disguise our characters anymore with willful exertions of strength, personality, and talent. We restless ambitous men must become patient trees planted by the river...

Finally I want to avoid any hint of pointing to women as a culprit for the failures of us Christian men. If I have appeared to do so, please forgive me. The Lord has provided we men every means for us to grow in Him...where there is failure it is completely ours. We were unbroken, undesciplined, unrooted seedlings. We have been loved and tended to by the Holy Spirit but many of us men were too unplanted, too wild at heart, to love and attend to the Lord in return. (Apologies John Elridge...)

Let me now sing of my friend, my friend's song concerning his vineyard. My friend had a vineyard on a fertile hillside;

He spaded it, cleared it of stones, and planted the choicest vines; Within it he built a watchtower, and hewed out a wine press. Then he looked for the crop of grapes, but what it yielded was wild grapes.

Now, inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard: What more was there to do for my vineyard that I had not done? Why, when I looked for the crop of grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes?

Blessings dear sister,

MC

Thank you Compton. That was very well put regarding character being the core issue. I think that hits the nail on the head.

Earlier today (on my coffee break as it were) I thought about this whole thread and wrote the following:

So far in this thread we have tried to point at some root causes--the media portrayal of men, the feminist movement, etc. etc. Ultimately the solution to all this rests with the men. Until the church leaders see the fact that an entire demographic is missing from the congregation and until they see that many men are not engaged in the body of Christ but passive on the sidelines somewhere, nothing will change. I agree Compton, women --as much as we may try to help --
cannot "fix" this issue. It needs to come from within the men themselves and the leadership in particular. If the pastor of a congregation does not SEE an issue that an entire segment of society is being overlooked, nothing will change. If the men in the church don't perceive where they need to step up to the plate to actively engage in what the Lord has called them to do, nothing will change -- the slumber will continue. I think we need to pray for the leaders to not only see what's happening but be disturbed and grieved over it enough to make it
a priority in prayer and action. The solution needs to come from the hearts of men themselves to begin to reach out to other men, to disciple and mentor them.

So I guess we have quite the prayer project ahead of us. I realize though that this issue of "missing men" is only one aspect of a huge systemic issue of the sickly North American church.

If there are any pastors/leaders out there that do notice that an entire demographic of men are missing in the average church and are trying to do something about it, please speak up as it would be encouraging. As it stands from my perspective, I think leaders are, for whatever reason, absolutely blind to this issue and this I find rather disheartening.

Blessings,

Sonja

What great discussions here,warmest greetings to you, brother Mike(s)and Steve. How I, too, have long and often echoed that "only if my husband would take on more leadership", "only if these pastors would do a better job", "only if my fellow sisters would take their proper place in the assemblies", but no,all the while, it should really be, "only if I'd obey God!!

I've been married almost 30 years, done my share of church-swapping, husband-gribing, pulpit-blaming. To this day, God has made me see very clearly, it is me, it's me that hasn't lived up to God's holy standard, it's me that God must so graciously keep working through with all long-suffering..

For sure, it's me, afterall, that needs to be "fixed",there is no use looking around and searching in this chaotic generation and the rebellious "church". I am to be blamed ! Mike C, I wish my husband could say the same about me as you with your precious wife.

Praising God always,
mz

The solution won't come from the heart of man.

Hebrews 8:...We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Amen Brother,

I think you are correct in saying the solution won't come from the heart of man. But can we say the solution must come to the heart of man or can't we agree the Gospel has accomplished nothing that the old covenant couldn't already do. What has begun with God must be established in men...

"I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

And as Paul says. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises....For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

The people Paul writes about are not decietful and wicked. If we remain decietful and wicked...we are not those people. While still engaged in worldy and spiritual warfare we nevertheless inwardly resist sin... "For the love of Christ constraineth us..." (2 Corinthians 5:14). Paul Washer is looking for a revival that changes hearts. Carnal men will put on the New Man...which, as he might say, is a little more then a Christian t-shirt!

This is the gospel. :-) Let's not be so quick to leave men out of it. ;-)

MC

Bereangirl,

This thought sparked a thought...

the leadership in particular.

We perhaps underestimate what Paul refers to as "power of Godliness." It would be quite another matter if all we were to be concerned about was the "power of God".

But we are told about the power of Godliness...which in the context of 2 Timothy is not a character description limited to the Lord or even the angels...but is expected of Christian men. We might convince ourselves, that occasionally the power of God will fall upon even a carnal man from time to time...but the power of Godliness implies that there is an inward conversion of character within some men and women.

Timothy 2: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Perhaps some of what Bereangirl is saying is that the demographic of men is missing from the church because they themselves detect falsehood in their local church culture. For instance, I believe we men like sports because for the most part, the scoreboard tells the truth about the measure of the players involved. Unlike politics or religion, or even some businesses, talking won't help in sports. (With the exception of the Spelling Bee...) Well, in sports you can either overcome or you can't.

Even carnal men respond to greatness in other men in many areas of life. It is human nature to become bored with actors that once entertained us, but we remain inpsired by true life.

So instead of using church growth strategies to condescend to men's carnal appetites, leaders can try to inspire men with their own walks with the Lord. I know it had an effect on me...not the signs and wonders demonstrations which are good in their way...but genuine men of God without guile. I love them dearly! They gave holiness a warm and strong face I could see plainly. They established a path for others like me.

What is the power of Godliness? In the very least it must be the compelling of others to become Godly by becoming Godly ourselves.

Blessings,

MC

MC thanks for what you wrote, I understand better.

If we are saying that it is the heart of man that needs to Change, but we know the heart is wicked.

And if God is the one by the Holy Spirit who changes hert. That leaves us one thing to do.
that is pray. Like we never prayed before
We need God. We need to broken, so we might feel and pray even more.
In his love
charlene

Brothers, just to clarify my use of the word "heart" in my previous post. In the context in which I said it, it was meant as the part of a human being that is stirred, moved, grieved to the point of action. When I said that the solution must come from the hearts of men, I am not inferring that the solution comes from a soulish source. No, the absolute remedy will come as men's hearts are broken before their God. Whatever the part of a man is that awakens from spiritual slumber, that is the part I am referring to.

MC, yes, I believe that when men display the strength of godliness they will be leaders whether they carry that label or not and will inspire and attract other men. True servant leadership and Godly character is attractive. The fragrance from the fruit of the Spirit is the best cologne a guy can have.

Blessings all.

Sonja

pray.... and pray even more.

I believe strongly the Lord is ingniting saints in this country to pray just like this. Amen. Very encouraging to hear cries just like this more and more!

I believe that when men display the strength of godliness they will be leaders whether they carry that label or not and will inspire and attract other men.

Perhaps the first lesson I learned here at SI has become the meta-lesson for all those that followed: Before a thing can do it must be.

While we all hope for a crisis to come upon men, either inwardly or outwardly, that will turn their hearts to God, it is still the character of the man that must be followed up with. The gym or fitness center is always most crowded in January because of all the new-year resolutions. By March it is back to the normal gang.

Accordingly I tend to be a little concerned when our collective cry is for more passion, or a breaking that turns the situation around. We need revivals but a tree planted by the river still requires time. Character requires time.

For instance, we cannot look forward to our conference in October with baited breath as if something great is going to happen then. Something wonderful is going to happen...but there is no reason for that something not to happen today.

I know we all see these things. I am only trying to articulate them.

A wonderful conversation, by the way.

I've been visiting Jeremiah these days...much of what he lamented over could be viewed through the lens of character of not only a man, but also of a nation.

In this discussion i would always want to keep maintenance to our acknowledgement of God's grace and the blood of Christ on our behalf. (I believe this was the underlying point in Corey's post.) Understandably, the term "character" can occasionally be intepreted as referring to a human legal effort or morality. The definition I pour into this term has more to do witht the nature of a man, and not some infrequent dramatic rally at the altar. But this nature is not the one we are born with, but one that we share in with the death and life of Christ. We are shown that our old nature broke the old covenant in Jeremiah. they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts. So much for liberalism and humanism...

I also think Jeremiah reveals a little more about the heart of this character. The new nature is not merely a sincere cognitive appreciation of the Lord...but knows God's character by taste. I realize the remarkable phrase "knowing God" has been all but destroyed by our own modern hypocrasy but nevertheless I believe this is where Godly character is different then the self-righteous moralism and intellectualism.

This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches,
...but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

So for myself, I feel that knowing the Lord is understanding his character (as fits to men) which implies having a firsthand taste of his character. Blessed is the man who...ect. It is being Godly and not merely attempting to do Godly things. "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh-...even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart."

We are all familiar with this need for inward change, and not just outward profession.

And lastly in the humble prayer of Jeremiah 10:23, I think we see that a Godly man can not assume that finding character will result in some big ministry or well known influence. Part of repentance may be ironically for our own church service. Many of us do serve 'faithfully' in the church today because we have learned we can aquire a sphere of recognition and influence in religion that we can not in other endeavors. On the contrary, a true Godly Character may be created in a man simply for the hidden pleasure of the Lord, and all our own agenda's forgotten I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. Correct me, LORD, but only with justice— not in your anger, lest you reduce me to nothing. Women should not expect that every man will become more pronounced if he is revived...some must become more quiet.

Speaking of which...I'm done rambling now. :-)

Blessings all,

Mike C