Should Christians Vote?

Since we are of another Kingdom, should we be voting? I think to often we place our trust in politics and voting instead of God who rules over all nations.

More and more I'm beginning to think that we should be voting on our knees instead of in the booths.

"1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;"

Jordan

Rebellious Republicans, Demonic Democrats... is there any hope in politics?

I know that's a little strong, I don't mean to purposely offend anyone.

I say pray for them both.

I think this is one of those topics that everyone needs to be persuaded in their own mind.

Are we taking a vote on whether or not to vote? ;-)

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."
Romans 13:1

But then does God use people to get the rulers in power... oh no this sounds like a predestination vs freewill debate!

More and more I'm beginning to think that we should be voting on our knees instead of in the booths.

Amen!

We all come to this forum and lament the state of the American culture. I maintain that the reason America is in the shape it is in is because Christians dont voice their views, and dont stand up and say "no", and dont get involved.

It didnt used to be that way.

So now, instead of doing something about it, we all come on here and whine about it and complain to each other... and do nothing proactive.

I would see it from a different perspective. I would say the main problem isn't because Christians don't vote, but because Christians don't evangelize. (EDIT: I know you agree that evangelism is important, brother, I just make that as a general statement.) The only type of "political" Christians I have a problem with are the ones who spend hours in political matters, but don't care enough to hand out a Gospel tract.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to be "more spiritual." I think it would be nonsense if I were to have that mindset. I'm in the middle on this topic.

I know brothers who are on both sides. Here is an incided I witnessed that shows how wrong one can take a side on this topic. There are some brothers from a "Anabaptist" mentality that are completely against voting. A (normal?) baptist man who does vote came up to him and asked if he had a sign that he could hold. (They were holding signs with scripture on them to evangelize.) Out of the blue, the one from the "anabaptist" mentality said "Do you vote?" The other responded, "Yes." "Well, I can't let you hold a sign then." :-?

I guess I just see a political emphasis in merely trying to restrain sinners from outward sin. I can't in good conscience devote much of my life to such a thing.

America never was a "Christian nation." ;-) The bible never mentions one, but I have heard of a holy nation. I also know of a kingdom where Christ is the king. In my mind for it to be a "Christian nation" Christ has to rule from an earthly throne. Some call this the "millennial reign ." :-D

1Pe 2:9 \t But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Hi Preach...

America never was a "Christian nation."

I believe that we have a responsibility to our family. When a politician, political party, legislature or judge can change the fabric of our lives in such a profound way -- they I believe that it is our responsibility to vote. There are persecuted believers in other countries who dream of such a right! After all, a "vote" is merely a "voice." My wife, my family. the Church -- and yes, my country -- mean far too much to me to squander such a "voice."

There are examples in the Scriptures where government was used by believers (such as Paul the Apostle's "appeal unto Caesar"). For anyone who DOESN'T vote, they need to remember such "silence" when matters do not go well for family, community, Church, or nation.

:-)

I'm sure many won't agree with this but I'll post an article that shows some of the principles of my thinking. I'm sure I don't agree with everything on the website it's on, maybe not even everything on the article...

Separation of Church and State
Tract 31E30

by Joseph Keener
published by Rod and Staff Publishers, Inc.

"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36)

In this explanation Jesus makes it clear that there is a definite separation between His kingdom and the kingdoms of this world. The fact that Jesus had not allowed His disciples to defend Him was evidence enough of this fact. Christ's kingdom is heavenly and seeks the reconciliation of the sinner to God, but civil and world governments are of this earth and seek for power and supremacy.

The separation of church and state is also taught in 2 Corinthians 5:20 where the Christian is referred to as an ambassador - "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ." An ambassador is one who represents one country to another. He does not become involved in the government of the other country but seeks the welfare of his own. Likewise, the Christian does not become involved in the affairs of earthly governments but represents the heavenly kingdom to them. He is in this world but is not of this world (John 17:16). His work is spiritual, not political. His responsibility is to help the people of this world to give their allegiance to the heavenly kingdom of Christ.

A key passage of Scripture in helping us to understand the relationship of the church to the state is Romans 13. It is significant that in this chapter there is no instruction given to the Christian concerning his involvement in the affairs of the state. Neither is there any teaching given to the state for the Christian to follow. This Scripture is solely given to the believer to instruct him in his obligation to and his attitude toward the civil authorities over him. He is taught to pay taxes, to honor, and to obey.

The purpose of the state, as taught in Romans 13, is seen to be in conflict with the teachings of Jesus to His disciples. In verse 4 we read, "For he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." In contrast, Jesus told His disciples, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52). When the soldiers came to John the Baptist and inquired concerning what they must do to repent, he said, "Do violence to no man" (Luke 3:14). In Romans 12:19 we read, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." With purposes so diverse, it is impossible to be consistent while serving in both capacities. God is calling the church to be separate from the state.

[b]The separation of church and state is not an Old Testament doctrine. God separated Abraham from his own people to make of him a great nation (Genesis 12:2). As a nation, God gave His people laws concerning the restraining of evil and the punishment of the evildoer. He placed a sword in their hand and commanded them to use it in bringing judgment upon other ungodly nations (Deuteronomy 20:17). Israel's civil law demanded life for life, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth (Deuteronomy 19:21). God also charged Israel with a spiritual ministry. He worked through them to reconcile other peoples to Himself. In this sense, the Jewish nation embodied both the responsibility of an earthly kingdom and the responsibility of the heavenly kingdom.

In the change of covenants the role of church and state have been separated. No longer is it the responsibility of God's people to wield God's sword of vengeance against His enemies. No longer is it the responsibility of the state to be the standard bearer of truth. There are now two entities with diverse goals and interests. Failure to see this difference between the two covenants leads to confusion and misapplication of this vital New Testament doctrine.
[/b]
The separation of church and state reaches into the practical expressions of everyday life. For example: Should the Christian participate in the military when Jesus has commanded him to love his enemies? Should he be an officer of the law when he is commanded not to resist evil? Should a Christian hold political offices and vote when he is an ambassador of another country? Should the Christian seek to coerce his government for rights by lobbying or various forms of protest when his concern is the salvation of souls? The consistent answer is no. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty" (2 Corinthians 6:17, 18).

God Establishes and Overrules in Governments

God establishes governments. "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1).

Civil power is God-given. "Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin" (John 19:10, 11).

Men in government are placed there by God. "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men" (Daniel 4:17). Also see Daniel 4:25, 32.

The Lord directs the decisions of civil leaders. "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will" (Proverbs 21:1).

The Work of Government

Government is established to keep order in society. "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Romans 13:4).

Collecting taxes is a God-given right. "For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour" (Romans 13:6, 7).

"And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him" (Mark 12:13-17).

Our Duty to the Government

We should respect our leaders. "Honour the king" (1 Peter 2:17).

We should pray for our leaders. "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour" (1 Timothy 2:1-3).

We should pay taxes. "And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's and unto God the things which be God's" (Luke 20:25).

We should obey our leaders. "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God" (1 Peter 2:13-15).

"Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation" (Romans 13:2).

God's Intention for the Christian

His nation is a holy nation. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9).

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13).

He seeks a better country. "These all . . . confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. . . . But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly" (Hebrews 11:13, 16).

He represents another country. "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:20).

[url=http://www.anabaptists.org/ras/31e30.html] Source[/url]

Again, I may not agree with every part of the article, but it should outline my thinking.

In general, no. When one feels something is just too important and the context demands it, sure. But identifying myself with any political party? No way.

Jordan

Interesting insights by everyone. Thanks!

Jordan

Krispy wrote:

If Christians sit silently and do nothing, not even vote, then the innocent blood of millions is on their hands. There is no two ways about it.

This is a tough situation. The prevailing philosophy is if you vote for pro-life candidates they will be able to reverse Roe v.Wade. But has it happened? You may say "yes, but slowly and that eventually it will be outlawed." But what does reality say? The reality is that the majority of those getting ABs are religious people, even evangelicals. The basic problem with AB is a spiritual one that cannot be remedied with secular laws forbidding it although I wholehardedly approve of them. But it will not happen in a long time, I am afraid, because there are too many politics involved.

Then you have ignorant folks who will take their cues for what is right and wrong by what the laws say: "If the law does not forbid it, it is ok." Really! When I first heard this I was appalled that someone could be so ignorant or dumb. No moral compass beyond the existing secular laws to guide thir behaviors.

So the issue appears: "vote for me because I take this righteous (Biblical) stand on this issue and if elected I will fix it." Has it been accomplished? Since my involvement in the pro-life ministry, I have concluded the solution to the AB problem rests in a conversion experience of the individual, one at a time in which a hatred for sin resides in the heart and mind of the individual.

So what do I do about the children being led to the slaughter? Good question and only one you can answer with the Holy Spirit directing you. It may start by teachng people that repentanace involves the forsaking of immorality in mind and lifestyle instead of justifying it.

I have voted with moral issues in mind and as I grow older, I, too, am questioning the value of voting. Now having said this, I expect my DH to tell me to go vote come election time....

My thoughts....

ginnyrose

All I can say is thank God men like John Adams didnt have a doubt in their minds about this issue. While people pontificate that really spiritual people dont vote, they fail to remember that God used America as a Christian nation (which it isnt anymore) to reach more people around the world with the gospel of Jesus Christ than any other country in history.

This happened because godly men stood up, took action, and did something to bring America into being... and God blessed it.

We all come to this forum and lament the state of the American culture. I maintain that the reason America is in the shape it is in is because Christians dont voice their views, and dont stand up and say "no", and dont get involved.

Well, go a little farther back in history, and you will find that it was when the church stopped praying, and started to get involved in the Roman government, and voice their views, and force a MORALITY on the heathen country, instead of the "foolish" GOSPEL, the nation fell into pieces, and christianity was mostly perverted, except for the remnant that God preserved...

Also, remember, this nation was not founded on Christianity, it was founded on rebellion... i know; some of you patriots will get on me for that, but it's true... Now, yes, it has had some leaders which were upright men, but many were not. Morality has declined as a whole, not just in "christian" America, but every place, since then. As for God blessing it, remember, He "blessed" (from one point of veiw) the heathen nations that have risen in power (and wickedness) in the centuries gone by- just because it apprears that God's "blessing" is on something doesn't mean that it fully Christian, or godly.

Lest you think i'm unthankful for the way God has allowed this country to be, i'll give my praise for what He has done. His will cannot be disputed.

And, YES, Christians in America are at fault, but not for with-holding their voices, but for not PRAYING!!

Here's something to think about-- When President Bill Clinton was elected, many Christians voted against him for his ungodly ways... and yet God saw fit to "ordain" him to that position of authority... tell me: did those Christians vote against the will of God? i'll leave you all to answer that. It is not the Christian's desision, but God's...

In the end times, when the beast comes, and us Christians are saying " NO! NO! He can't be put into that position!! He's the anti-christ!!" We will be voting against GOD'S WILL, if we take that stand.

You see, God's Kingdom is totally separate, politically, from the kingdom of this world. If it were not separate, God would have Revelation bring a different key note than it does...

Also, in Romans 13, it says to obey them that have the rule over you... there is no law that says you must vote: only the law of opinion, and patriotism, which, a Christian, i believe should not be patriotic, for they are divided in their allegence.

My thoughts, along with a blessing
-nathan

Hello...

I just wanted to remind you that a "vote" is simply a "voice." There are many people that I know who take stands against "voting" but are quick to share their "voice" on the same issues that cause many to vote. It has far less to do with "patriotism" than it has to do for caring enough to let your voice be heard on behalf of your wife, children, family, community, church, state and the morality of this nation.

Again, there are many nations in this world where believers are praying for such an unpunished "voice." I suggest that individuals who do not understand this should listen to the messages of Richard Wurmbrand (of [i]Voice of the Martyrs[/i]). His ministry, born out of the torture he endured at the hand of the Soviets, caused him to use the governmental entities of the United States to bring greater religious freedom to people behind the Iron and Bamboo Curtains. This is similar to the use of the Roman political system by Paul the Apostle to "appeal unto Caesar" and bring the Gospel to the "house of Caesar" in Rome.

:-)

greetings brethren in Christ's name by whose Blood we are reconciled to God. AMEN.

i'm sure we all know this nation was not founded Christian (else it would be a theocracy) but was founded on some Christian principles, enough to allow the young nation to expand without hindrance. The Masonic influence on the birth of the nation was rather powerful, more so than is known or acknowledged. The plan was to move away from Faith as the guiding principle of government to logic, reason and man coming together, working together. the premise was free thought and Christianity is a pariah to such because according to the Faith, all we do ought to be governed by God and what He would have us do. This departure from the Faith allowed for the very same men who wrote "we believe these truths to be self-evident, that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty and persuit of happiness" to own slaves. in the word there are certain rules which allow for slavery which were flouted and although some slaveowners treated their slaves better, the fact remains that the grounds on which the slaves were kept were against the word. Also this same spirit was passed down through the generations and the native american was wiped out and marginialized, the chinese were exploited and many ungodly things were done to epand the nation without batting an eyelid because of a very crafty clause in the constitution, the separation of the Church and the state. The sons of Japheth, not wanting to be bound entirely by the word unshackled themselves from it so that they could build empires. all over the world, looting pillaging and oppressing wherever they went without remorse because Church was one thing and the state was another. Of course God was not asleep at the wheel in anywise. However the bulk of American Churches or Christianity as practised and spread abroad is the seed of this same mentality and it is wrong and as such is one of the things which has rendered the Church impotent in a dead and dying world.

Brethren let us take for example the ENRON collapse. Ken Lay was purportedly a Christian and long time friend of prominent Houston Baptist preacher Rev. Lawson. It would appear he didn't allow God to affect how he worked because of a separation of Church and work and certain laws to that effect. As a result ENRON collapsed and many were affected either because of negligence or looting of the company, both of which boil down to not working as unto the Lord. At our jobs, we must take the Faith with us, we must go with God and for Him, we should also do so if we are in political office should God put us in such. For Christians, there is no such thing as sepration of Church and state or Church and anything at all. i know what Romans 13 says about obeying the governments which are appointed and such. i know also that we are in the world but not of it however i believe there is something flawed about how we consider the word in this regard. Romans was written by Holy Spirit through Paul concerning how we as Christians ought to conduct ourselves right? it was God telling us what we ought to do in relation to the states and countries we live in, the way we deal with the state is governed by God and as such there is no separation, we relate to the state through God and what He has said. We relate to one another as Christians according to what God has said, we relate to our families, the world, in fact everything according to what God has said so there is no separation of God from anything as far as we are concerned.

Brethren by default if we allow God to govern our every action, the world around us can't help but change. If we prayerfully consider our vote and vote as God leads, then we are doing what we ought. of course this doesn't mean affiliation with a particular party but following after what God has called us to do. The very fact that there are men challenging such things as the display of the 10 commandments, having God in various places in society is an indictment of our own failiure in letting God be Lord of all in our lives which is the casting away of this whole mentality of separation of God from (fill in whatever here) which is a demonic mentality calculated to cripple the Church and has worked masterfully. If we had allowed God to Rule over all in our lives, familiy, work, sports teams we played on and other affiliations, men would not be so brazen as to do and say the things they are doing and saying now. i fear we have a mentality of letting God handle some things and thinking other things to be to small for His consideration and then we handle them ourselves to a measure of success (as we perceive it) but ultimately we have failed. The reason there is such vileness in coporate America is because Christians in corporate America aren't allowing God to dictate how they work. The reason for such corruption in government, the courts, the whitehouse, capitol hill, politics in general is because of a failiure of those who are Christians to allow God to govern their every dealing in those arenas. It is a fear of retribution, a spirit of self-preservation which causes us to compromise rather than represent God as we ought.

Dear brethren we are all guilty before Him for not yielding all to Him. as Christians we have no free will, we are slaves, bondservants of Christ now and before we were slaves of sin.

Should Christians vote? if our Lord leads you to do so, vote according to what He has placed in you to vote. Should a Christian be in the armed services? if God has called you to a work there, then do so and work as unto the Lord. The bottom line is that as slaves of God through Christ, all we say ought to be governed by Him, what we think ought to be governed by Him (the word says to put on the mind of Christ by being immersed in the word), what we do ought to be governed by Him also, (the word says that we ought to follow Christ who said in John chapt 6 He came to do not His will but the Father's will) we also should feel as God feels, desire what He desires (these are our hearts desires which we can receive from Him because they are His own and bring Him Glory) We ought to be sympathetic to the Father just as His Son is and it was His mission to bring that to fruition while we are on this side in adversity because in heaven, there will be no such and we will all be perfect.

Dear saints, this is the test of Christianity and what sort of Christians we are; how to we allow God to govern our thoughts, feelings and actions in the adversity of this world? do we respond as He would have us do, or do we respond in a manner which seems right unto a man in the flesh but results in death, a Godless response? to allow God to govern every aspect of our lives (as HE should) is to be free from the chains of sin and this world and is a sign of the thing which we all fear, or feared at some time or other, the total death of ourselves to ourselves and the world on that most horrid thing called the Cross.

i bless God for the cross and what He wrought there in our salvation from the world and its trappings through Christ. i bless God my flesh was crucified there and died yet i live, but not i live but Christ in me. HALLELUIJAH!

Interesting viewpoint Nathan, did God really bless the insurrection of our united states, or simply allow it? How does the insurrection hold up to Romans 13:2 ?

Thoughts about voting from:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15338&forum=35&114
K_DAY said:
Quote:
As the 2008 election is coming up I have a real knot in my stomach. The thought of Hilary or Obama in office, both of which "strongly oppose" the ban on partial birth abortion makes me just want to vote against them. Still, I don't think there is a single candidate I would want to have my full support."
_________________________________________________

How About this:

Quote: "The Christian's attitude toward politics need not be one of unconcern or disinterest. (At the same time we would caution against becoming overly anxious or concerned about it.) Since we are to pray for "kings and for all that are in authority" (1 Timothy 2:1, 2), we believe we should have some interest in the affairs of the nation.

Do we believe in the power of prayer? Then we can certainly do more on our knees than at the polls. Two devoted children of God agreeing to pray earnestly can do much to move the mind of God to set up whom He will to the blessing of both the church and the nation (Matthew 18:19).

Here lies our power and calling. Let us not forget our civil leaders after the election. Here is a Biblical prayer request. When did you last pray for this request?"
_________________________________________________

If the Lord puts men up and takes men down and His word says He does:

“Since the beginning, God has recognized a social order and has established government leaders. Daniel 4:17 declares that "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." Romans 13:1 echoes, "the powers that be are ordained of God."

Then would not our concern over who rules be covered in prayer?

Jesus says pray like this:

Matthew 6:9-13
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [11] Give us this day our daily bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

If we as Christians all pray together ‘Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ then why would we then worry about who He places in positions of leadership; We need to pray and then receive:

Philip. 4:6-7
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Brothers and Sisters, this is the peace we need to receive, yes it passeth all understanding of the natural man, but we have not been called to be natural but to receive His peace,
Yes the peace which passeth all understanding.
This peace only comes through prayer, so let us pray and believe The Lord; I would say He knows exactly what He is doing.

In His Love

Pastorfrin