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Can men obey God? Are God's Laws Impossible?

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[b]Necessary Conditions of Moral Accountability[/b]
[i]By Jesse Morrell[/i]

This is a theological treatise on the required conditions of moral accountability or the prerequisites of moral agency, along with their necessary connection to the extent of moral obligation and the proper measure of moral guilt.

[b]DEFINITIONS OF KEY WORDS USED, AS MEANT IN THIS TREATISE[/b]

Accountability [account-ability]: Synonymous with liable; the giving of account for the usage a moral agent has made of their moral ability; being accountable according to moral ability, conditioned by knowledge of moral obligation.

Responsibility [response-able]: Synonymous with moral obligation and requirement; that which a moral agent ought to voluntarily select, which an intelligent free moral agent will be accountable for and judged by; the affirmation of the intelligence or the demands of the conscience according to the perceived value of an object which necessitates the requirement of the committal of the will.

Moral Agent: An individual subjected to moral law or moral government; one subjected to moral obligation and moral accountability, upon condition of intelligence and free will, thereby capable of virtue, vice, blameworthiness, and praiseworthiness.

Free-Will: Relating to contingency and to possibility [possible-ability]; synonymous with capable, able, and ability; the freedom of the will to choose between one volition and its opposite; the power of contrary choice; the potency to will one ultimate end with its necessary means or to will its opposite; the ability of voluntary choice without coercion; a faculty operating under the law of liberty as opposed to the law of necessity or force; to have the option of willing or nilling, receiving or rejecting; a requisite quality, condition, or attribute of personality for moral agency, without which moral agency is rendered nonexistent and impossible, and moral accountability as unjust and unreasonable.

Unable/Inability: Relating to impossibility [impossible for ability] or a nonfunctional faculty in connection to the slavery of the will; synonymous with incapable; forced to choose an object or direction, without the option of rejecting it, or without the option of choosing its opposite; without power or capability to properly perform.

Knowledge: The reasonable perception of the mind; the affirmation of the intelligence; when morally speaking, pertaining to the idea of what is ethically right and ethically wrong as intuitive to the reason or declared by the conscience; relating to intelligence as a requisite quality or attribute of personality for moral agency, without which moral agency is rendered nonexistent and impossible, and moral accountability as unjust and unreasonable.

Prerequisite: Synonymous with precondition; a preceding or prior condition, requirement, or requisition demanded by logical or natural necessity for a proper function; without which the result would be improper, unjust, impossible, or illogical.

Moral Character: Synonymous with moral action or moral conduct; the moral quality of a moral agent, derived from the continual, voluntary choices of the will; the overall analysis of a moral agent’s moral conduct or moral state; not to be confounded or confused with constitution or capacities.

The freedom of the will and the knowledge of its proper use are prerequisites to moral responsibility and moral accountability; ability and knowledge are necessary preconditions of moral agency, being the proper boundaries and limitations of moral responsibility and moral accountability.

[b]1.MORAL ABILITY: a Necessary Prerequisite to Moral Accountability[/b]

[b]MAN’S MORAL ABILITY AND ITS RELATION TO THE MORAL LAW[/b]

Natural ability and free-will are synonymous terms, being identical in nature. Inability and free-will are antonymous terms, being contrary in nature. Ability is the power of contrary choice; free will is the power of contrary choice. A man is able to do only what a man is free to do; and a man is free to do only what a man is able to do. Freedom speaks of the contingent not the necessitated, of that which was voluntarily chosen under liberty and not that forced by necessity. A free-will choice is a choice which did not have to be chosen, but was voluntarily chosen when the opposite choice could have been selected.

To be responsible or obligated to do better, and to be accountable or judged for failure to do better, one must be capable of doing better. To be capable of doing better, one must be free or able to do better. What a man is free to do, a man is capable or able of doing. If a man is not capable then a man is not able or free. And if a man is not a free agent, then he is a necessitated agent. But moral character relates to the voluntary choices commanded or condemned by the God given intelligence/conscience. A man is responsible only for that which is voluntary. Therefore what a man is accountable for, he must not have been necessitated to do, but must have voluntarily committed.

Respecting the Moral Government of God (Isaiah 9:6-7), or the ruling and reigning of God in the realm of morality over moral agents (Luke 17:21), the moral commandments of God never exceed the moral ability of men. The commands of God are directed to the ability of man, being instructions as to how a man is to use the liberty of his will or how a man is to properly use his ability. Since God’s moral commandments are directions for man’s moral ability, since God’s moral government is the governing of man’s moral agency, God’s moral commandments never can, never do, nor ever will exceed man’s moral ability, never exceeding man’s moral agency.

The moral law that is in God’s Moral Government is: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind” (Matt 22:37) and “love they neighbor as thyself” (Matt 22:39). The moral law of God in essence is the law of love, love being the total and complete fulfillment of the whole of the law. (Rom 13:8, Rom 13:10, Gal 5:14, Jas 2:8)

The law of love is commanded as opposed to the law of selfishness which is condemned. Love is not an emotion or a feeling, but a voluntary, impartial committal of the will towards the well-being of all. Love is synonymous with “good will” (Luke 2:14, Ephesians 6:7, Philippians 1:15) or is the same as benevolence. If it is truly love, it must of necessity manifest itself into action and conduct whenever possible and whenever necessary, performing the required means to secure the end of the well-being of others.

Love, good will, or benevolence satisfies the whole of the law (Rom 13:8, Rom 13:10, Gal 5:14, Jas 2:8), but selfishness or self-centeredness is a total and complete violation of the whole of the law (James 2:10). To break one letter of the law is to break the whole spirit of the law; the spirit of the law which the entire letter of the law is derived from. The letter of the law is derived from the spirit of the law; therefore to break one letter of the law is to break the whole spirit of the law. He that breaks the one breaks the whole. Therefore, to “offend in one point” is to be “guilty of all”. (James 2:10)

God does not command that we love Him with faculties that we do not possess, but rather that we love Him with all that we currently possess, “with all thy”, as opposed to that which isn’t currently yours. The commandments of God are not impossible, commanding us to love Him with a heart, soul, and mind that we do not have; but rather the law of God is able to be kept, commanding that we love Him with all of what we do have, with all that we are capable, to the best of our ability. The law is able to be kept because we are capable and we are capable because the law is able to be kept. The command of God is that we love to the best of our ability, and therefore the law is as able to be kept as our ability is capable, no further and no less. What our ability is capable of is all that the law of God commands, no more and no less. The law of God is the law of our ability, to love Him supremely and our neighbor equally, according to our ability, with all of our ability.

God commands “thy heart” and “thy soul” and “thy mind”. The command of God is directed towards our current faculties and it does not exceed the limits of those faculties. We are to love him with “all” of these faculties, but not with less or with more then those faculties are capable of. Man is not responsible for more then he can perform, and so a man is not accountable for more then he can perform. Man’s moral responsibility is all of man’s moral ability, and so man’s moral accountability will not exceed man’s moral ability. Man’s moral ability is naturally and obviously limited by moral possibilities; therefore God’s moral commandments never require moral impossibilities, for that which is morally impossible cannot be morally commanded. Morally demanding a moral impossibility is a contradiction in terms.

“God does not demand impossibilities.” Augustine *1

“The law of God requires nothing more of any human being, than that which he is at present naturally able to perform, under the present circumstances of his being.” Charles G. Finney *2

The extent of God’s commandments is the extent of man’s ability, and the extent of man’s ability is the extent of God’s commandments, each one establishes and determines the limitations and boundaries of the other. And since man will be judged by the commandments, the extent of man’s accountability will be the extent of man’s ability. A man will not be accountable for that in which he was not capable of, he will not be judged for that which was outside of the realm of his control.

The law of God is therefore the law of our ability, to love Him supremely and our neighbor equally, according to our ability, with all of our ability, no more and no less. There is then no commandment in which a sinner can hide behind as an excuse, no commandment that a sinner can point to as tyrannical, since all the commandments of God are able to be kept, from the lowest to the greatest. All sin is therefore inexcusable since all sin is always avoidable; sin, that brings moral guilt, is always voluntary.

What is unavoidable is excusable; but what is inexcusable must be avoidable. What is punishable must be voluntary, and what is voluntary must be avoidable. What is punishable must be vice, and what is vice must be voluntary. So the punishment of sin only comes upon sin that was voluntary and avoidable, therefore sin that is punished is sin that is inexcusable.

“Moral agency implies the possession of free-will. By free-will it is intended the power of choosing or refusing to choose, in every instance, in compliance with moral obligation. Free-will implies the power of originating and deciding our own choices, and of exercising our own liberty, in every instance of choice upon every moral questions, of deciding or choosing in conformity with duty or otherwise in all cases of moral obligation….unless the will is free, man has no freedom; and if he has no freedom he is not a moral agent, that is, he is incapable of moral action and also of moral character. Free will then, in the above defined sense, must be a condition of moral agency, and of course, of moral obligation.” Charles G. Finney *3

Man is accountable for choosing sin only because he is capable of choosing righteousness over sin. A man is accountable for choosing darkness over the light, only because he is capable of choosing the light over darkness. A man is accountable for disobedience because he is capable of choosing obedience over disobedience. A man is accountable for rejecting Jesus only because he is capable of following Jesus instead of rejecting Jesus. A man is responsible and accountable according to that which is in his realm of control, according to that which is within his power. A man will be judged no more, nor any less, then by his ability, since the commands of God require nothing more then that which is within man’s moral ability, that which is within the realm of moral possibilities.

[b]THE RELATION OF THE MORAL CHARACTER OF GOD TO THE MORAL LAW OF GOD[/b]

“Does God give commandments which men cannot obey? Is He so arbitrary, so severe, so unloving, as to issue commandments which cannot be obeyed? The answer is that in all of annals of Holy Scripture, not a single instance is recorded of God having commanded any man to do a thing, which was beyond his power. Is God so unjust and so inconsiderate as to require of man that which he is unable to render? To infer is to slander the character of God.” E. M. Bounds *4

God is not a tyrant, His laws are not tyrannical. Pharaoh commanded brick but gave no straw, and then beat those who failed to perform the impossible. Pharaoh was a tyrant for doing such and scripture assigns the fault to Pharaoh and not with those subservient to him (Exodus 5:16). The moral fault was with the commander, not with the command breakers. The infallible testimony of Divine Inspiration declares that when an impossible law is broken, the problem is with the law itself and with the one who issued the law.

What is vice in Pharaoh would not and could not be virtue in God. What scripture condemns in one is condemnable in all; what is vice in one is vice in all. The equality and impartiality of justice demands that what mars the character of one must mar the character of all, a blemish to one must be a blemish to all.

God does not command obedience but then gives no ability to perform that which is commanded, only to punish with eternal torment those who do not obey when they had no ability to obey. The fault would, according to the divine scriptures, be with the commander and not with the command breaker, when the commands are broken. Sin would ultimately be the fault of the one who gave the unreasonable law, since sin is transgression of the law (1John 3:4), and there can be no transgression where there is no law (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13,1John 3:4). Sin then would not and could not be the fault of the one who broken the law which naturally could not be kept. The one who decrees an impossible law must be the ultimate author and actual cause of sin. But the truth is that God is not the author of sin, He is not the ultimate cause of sin, because God’s moral laws are not unreasonable, because God’s moral laws can in fact be kept.

God’s Moral Government, or Moral Kingdom, is not a tyrannical one, but a reasonable and just one. God does not condemn the incapable for failure to perform the impossible, but condemns the able for failure to perform the possible; for voluntarily and freely choosing darkness over the light (John 3:19), “who have received the law” “but have not kept it”. (Acts 7:53)

God’s execution of condemnation is justly exerted upon the capable for violation of commandments that could be kept. Condemnation for violation of commandments is justly deserved upon condition of capability, upon condition of being able to keep the commandments. Condemnation for breaking a law that could not be kept is unjust condemnation. Eternal damnation for breaking that which was unavoidably and inevitably to be broken is unjust eternal damnation. God does not send to hell those who are victims of their birth, victims of nature, victims of their parents, victims of fate, who hadn’t any power, option, or ability of obeying all that was required of them. But rather, God sends deserving criminals and rebels to eternal hell, who freely of their own accord choose to walk contrary to the righteous demands of God’s reasonable and just commandments, when it was well within their power, well within their ability of will, to obey and conform to all of their moral obligations and requirements. (1Cor 6:9-10, Rev 21:8)

“It is offering an insult to the only wise God to suppose… that he gave them the Gospel, without giving them power to believe it…With regards to repentance, ‘Then he began,’ says St. Matthew, ‘to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not.’ Merciful Savior, forgive us! We have insulted thy meek wisdom, by representing thee as cruelly upbraiding the lame for not running, the blind for not seeing, and the dumb for not speaking! ... Suppose a schoolmaster said to his English scholars ‘Except you instantly speak Greek you shall all be severely whipped.’ You would wonder at the injustice of the school tyrant. But would not the wretch be merciful in comparison of a Savior, (so called) who is supposed to say to myriads of men, that can no more repent than ice can burn, ‘Except ye repent, ye shall all perish”? John Fletcher *5

“Many sincere men are saying, ‘God gave us good laws to keep,’ and in the next breath saying, ‘we are actually unable to keep them!’ If this is true, then God’s laws are not good! No law is good that asks the impossible of its subjects. If God demands obedience to impossible laws then God is not just... If God demands such obedience under penalty of death, then God is not only unfair, but monstrous. What kind of being would pass laws upon his subjects they are unable to keep, and then condemn them to death for their failure to obey? This is a blasphemy on God’s character.” Winkie Pratney *6

To assume that God commands the impossible at the threat of eternal torment is to directly slander the character of God. Cruelty cannot be ascribed to God’s character because injustice cannot be ascribed to His government. The character of God does not allow anyone to go to hell for failure to perform moral impossibilities, but only for failure to perform moral possibilities. The bible exalts God and glorifies His moral character and says because of God’s eternal character He never, in any circumstance, allows anyone to be tempted beyond their moral ability. A sin hating, sin punishing God provides a way for all sin to be avoided in all cases, always, without exception, providing a way of escape so that we are all, always, able to obey instead of disobey.

“There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” 1Cor 10:13

Temptation would not be tempting, if it were forcing. What is forced cannot be considered temptation. Temptation is the inclination towards one choice over the other, the influence towards a decision or direction. Temptation is not the forcing of one choice over the other; it is not the necessitating of one decision or direction. Force or causation is not the nature of temptation but inclination or influence is. Causation and influence are different by nature. Temptation can only respect contingent volitions, relating to that which may or may not occur; but temptation cannot be respecting certain or necessitated volitions, relating to that which will and must occur.

Where sin is forced, there not only could not be sin, but there could not be temptation. But where there is sin and where there is temptation, there must be the freedom of the will. All men are tempted to sin, but no man is forced to sin, because all men are capable of not sinning. If this were not true, neither temptation nor sin could exist for the sinner or for the saint. For sin to be sin, or to have moral guilt, it must be voluntary and avoidable, but not necessitated and forced. And for temptation to be temptation it must be only influence, but not causation. And so “temptation” is “common” to all men, because the power of contrary choice is common to all men. All men have the freedom of their wills, and so the scripture is undeniably true that “ye are able” (1Cor 10:13).

1Cor 10:13 directly and explicitly depicts the eternal, never changing character of God as it relates to man’s ability and temptations. God is just towards all men. God is faithful at all times. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8). Because of the eternally holy, eternally good, eternally just character of God, the commandments of God are never tyrannical or burdensome, but are always moral and reasonable towards all men at all times, being possible by all who are obligated to keep them.

“God is faithful” therefore “ye are able” (1Cor 10:13). “Able” is “δύναμαι” which is to “be able or possible: - be able, can (do, + -not), could, may, might, be possible, be of power”. The only reason “ye are able” is because “God is faithful”. To declare that “ye are not able” would require the declaration that “God is not faithful”. God’s character determines what God commands; and what God commands is always in accordance to our ability; the moral law always respecting our ability by brilliantly declaring “with all thy” (Matthew 22:37).

Since God’s moral character determines God’s moral commandments, when dealing with the moral commandments of God, we are directly dealing with the moral character of God and only subsequently dealing with the capabilities of men. The moral character of God is the primary issue while the moral capacities of men are only the secondary or necessarily connected issue.

(I properly recognize that God’s commandments are ultimately derived from the intrinsic value of His well-being, seeing that His well-being is naturally and eternally of intrinsic value, whose likeness we were made in the image of. God commands that which promotes the highest well-being of all and condemns that which demotes the highest well-being of all; commanding the means that are relatively good and condemning the means that are relatively harmful, in relation to or in accordance with the end which is intrinsically good (well-being) and the end which is intrinsically evil (ill-being). All moral agents necessarily presuppose the intrinsic value of well-being, their consciences condemning that which is harmful to others while commanding that which is helpful to others. God morally requires of men that which is good for all and forbids that which is harmful to all; except in those cases when a moral agent forfeits that right by disregarding the value of others, and therefore brings upon himself the deserved punishment of torment. Because God commands the good and forbids the evil, we can never question the wisdom and goodness of God’s moral commandments without questioning the character and intelligence of the Commander.

It is God’s will that acts voluntarily in accordance with His nature, that acts voluntarily in accordance with His intelligence; His character being derived from His will, which voluntarily declares and determines His public and universal commandments. So while the ultimate foundation of God’s commandments is found in the intrinsic value of His well-being, as demanded by His divine nature or by His divine intelligence, it is still properly true that “God’s character determines God’s commandments”, that is, God’s character ultimately determines what He voluntarily, publicly declares and universally requires of all moral agents. Therefore, to attack the goodness and reasonableness of God’s commandments is to directly attack the character of God.)

“My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt 11:30). “His commandments are not grievous.” (1John 5:3). Because His yoke, burden, and commandments are easy, light, and not grievous, therefore “ye are able”. To say “ye are not able” is to say His yoke, burden, and commandments are hard, heavy and burdensome, which would be contrary to the direct and explicit declarations God has given of Himself. The one who misrepresents the commandments must of necessity misrepresent the Commander.

Therefore the declaration of the ability of man is an exaltation of the character of God, and the renunciation of the ability of man is a denunciation of the character of God. The one who rejects the ability of man thereby slanders and undermines the wisdom of God’s Divine Intelligence and the goodness of God’s Divine Character.

[b]THE CONDITION OF THE MORAL CHARACTER OF SINNERS AND THE CONDITION OF THE NATURAL FACULTIES OF SINNERS[/b]

The bible describes the moral condition of the unconverted sinners as totally and completely morally depraved, as never doing any good at all, entirely destitute of all virtue, bankrupt of all real righteousness and deplete of all true holiness: Matt 6:22-24, Matt 7:17-18, Luke 11:34-36, Rom 3:10-18, 2Cor 5:17, Titus 1:15-16, James 3:11-12. But total moral depravity is not synonymous with natural inability; inability meaning that the will is no longer free to make the contrary choice. An important distinction must be made between the condition of the moral character of sinners and the condition of the natural faculties of sinners. Moral character and natural capabilities must not be confused, they are not identical. What is constitutional and what is ethical must be sharply distinguished between for a sound theology.

Moral character absolutely could not exist without moral agency, and moral agency absolutely could not exist without natural faculties; specifically, as relating to this discourse, the freedom of the will. Both the morally virtuous and the morally depraved conditions of men, which make up their moral character, are dependent upon the functional faculty or uninjured freedom of the will. Where this does not exist, moral agency and therefore moral character cannot exist. And where moral character does not exist, moral accountability cannot exist.

Individuals that are totally morally depraved still maintain the ability of choosing the good over evil; they still have the faculty of free-will. Moral depravity is not a crippled faculty, but moral depravity is the abuse or improper function of an existing, functioning faculty. Sin is not the inability to do right, sin is an abuse of the liberty of the ability; sin is an unwillingness to use the faculty of the will rightly, to use the gift of free will according to the intended purpose of the faculty Creator.

Free will is a gift from God so that man could rightly choose the good over the evil. But sin consists in voluntarily choosing wrongly, the evil over the good. Man could not be capable of evil if he were not capable of good; neither could man be capable of good if he were not capable of evil. True virtue and true blameworthiness consists in that which is voluntarily chosen, not that which was necessitated. That which is necessitated cannot have moral character, but moral character can only be in connection with that which was voluntarily chosen; which object was morally right or morally wrong.

Inability to do right is not and could not be sin, for inability to do good does not allow for the existence of guilt, it does not allow for voluntary transgression in which sin alone consists. Inability to do good would inevitably be the inability to sin, for sin is the voluntary choice or voluntary violation of God’s reasonable and good law (1John 3:4), sin consists alone in the voluntary moral choice to choose the evil over the option of the good. And inability to sin would inevitably be the inability to be virtuous, for virtue consists in voluntarily choosing the good over the option of evil.

Justin the Martyr of the Early Church said, “Every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way.” And “unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever.” *7

Turtullian of the same century said, “No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.” *8

Origen said, “The soul does not incline to either part out of necessity, for then neither vice nor virtue could be ascribed to it; nor would its choice of virtue deserve reward; nor its declination to vice punishment.” Again, “How could God require that of man which he [man] had not power to offer Him?” *9

(All of the Early Church Fathers, for the first 4-5 centuries, unanimously agreed and affirmed the freedom of the will, especially as an indispensable condition of moral agency and moral accountability. This doctrine was universally a fundamental pillar of the Christian faith, challenged only by the heathen philosophers of the day.)

Since sin does not consist in the inability to choose good over evil, but rather in the voluntarily choosing of evil over the good, men truly deserve hell, not because of any involuntary inability, but rather because of their voluntary unwillingness.

It must be distinctly understood that total moral depravity is respecting moral character but it is not at all any sort of total inability respecting the capabilities of the faculties of the personality. Total moral depravity is rather the utter and absolute unwillingness to choose good over evil. A man who is totally morally depraved still has the capacity of good just as the man totally morally righteous has the capacity of evil, because righteousness and wickedness are respecting voluntary choices or voluntary character and not at all the capabilities and capabilities of the faculties of the personality.

The wicked and the righteous have the faculty of free-will imbedded in their personality, and it must exist as long as they themselves exist. Therefore, the righteous man can “turn from his righteousness” and choose sin (Ezekiel 18:24) and “the wicked” can “turn from all his sin” and choose righteousness (Ezekiel 18:21). The character or choices of an individual can always change, because the faculty of the will always remains in tact and functional.

A man is unable only in that sense that he is unwilling, but not in that he hasn’t the needed and necessary faculties. He is always free to will contrary to his previous will. If this were not true, neither falling from a state of perfection, nor recovering from a fallen state of sin, could be possible at all to anyone. Neither falling, nor converting, nor backsliding, would be or could be possible at all, if a man could not will contrary to his previous will, if the faculty of the will was not functional.

But a man is unable only in that he is unwilling, but not in that he is incapable respecting his faculty. He is unable only because of his character, because of his choices, because of his will, not because of his faculties or natural capabilities. A man who willingly chooses sin cannot willingly choose righteousness only while he is unwilling to choose righteousness, only while he is willingly choosing sin. (Rom 8:5-8) And a man who willingly chooses righteousness cannot willingly choose sin, only while he is unwilling to choose sin, only while he is willingly choosing righteousness. (1John 3:8) But the faculty of the will is always free to choose, always maintaining the power of contrary choice. The faculty of the will can, at all times, either submit itself to the sensibilities, that is, to the lusts of the flesh (1John 2:16) or to the truth and instruction of God revealed to the intelligence by the Spirit of grace (Gal 5:16, Titus 2:11). The will is free because it always has these two opposite choices, to do what feels good for self or what is known as good for others.

Since sin does not consist in the inability to choose good over evil, total moral depravity is not and could not be total natural inability. Total moral depravity simply could not exist without moral ability. Character is not capabilities or capacities. What constitutional and what is ethical are completely separate in nature. A proper distinction between the two is vital to an accurate theological view of sin and sinners, and of God and His government.

[b]FREE MORAL AGENCY CONTINUED EVEN AFTER THE FALL OF ADAM AND EVE[/b]

Free moral agency did not terminate with the fall of Adam and Eve when they ate from “the tree of knowledge of good and evil” (Gen 2:9). Eating from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” did not eliminate moral agency, and thus eliminate moral accountability, but it rather expanded and enlarged it. The “eyes of them both were opened” (Gen 3:7), and they became like God, “knowing good and evil” (Gen 3:22). With this increase of moral knowledge came the increase of moral obligation and moral accountability. The increase of moral knowledge never terminates moral agency or moral accountability but rather enhances and enlarges it.

God himself addressed Cain as a free moral agent, capable of both good and evil even after the fall of Adam and Eve: “And the Lord saith unto Cain, why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.” (Genesis 4:6-7) Cain had no reason to be “wroth”; he had no reason for his “countenance” to be “fallen”, because his free moral agency still remained in tact, his moral capabilities remained functional.

Even after the fall of Adam and Eve, mankind maintained the ability to “doest well” and to “doest evil” and to “rule” over sin. The contingency and possibility to do good and evil, to be righteous or to be wicked, still remained apart of man’s realm of capability. Cain and Abel, the offspring of the same exact parents, after the fall, were still moral agents. But one was righteous and the other wicked because of their voluntary choices. Abel’s works were “righteous” (1John 3:12) and Abel himself was “righteous” (Matt 23:35) But Cain was wicked and did evil works (1John 3:12). Cain could have done well just as much as his blood brother Abel did; he could have done righteously and could have been righteous, and he could have been acceptable to God. He was not forced to sin by circumstances, by fate, by nature, by his parents, or by God. His will still operated under the law of liberty, not the law of necessity. He had the contingent choice of two moral possibilities and he voluntarily selected one over the other; and therein is the first condition of moral accountability – the moral ability or the power of contrary choice.

[b]GOD’S MORAL LAW OR MORAL GOVERNMENT ADDRESSES ALL MORAL AGENTS AS FREE, APPEALING TO THEIR MORAL CAPABILITIES[/b]

Those that are totally depraved sinners still maintain the faculty of free will, which is the power of contrary choice. The bible everywhere addresses the natural ability of totally depraved individuals. God often appeals to the free will of sinners to turn away from sin and be converted:

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve;” Joshua 24:15

“Wash yourself, make yourself clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be read like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.” Isaiah 1:16-20

“Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:6-7

“Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground.” Hosea 10:12

“Turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.” Ezekiel 18:30

“Cast away from you all your transgressions…..make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit” Ezekiel 18:31

“For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.” Ezekiel 18:32

“Return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” Jeremiah 18:11

“Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.” Jeremiah 26:13

“Save yourselves from his untoward generation.” Act 2:40

“God… commands all men every where to repent” Acts 17:30

“Ye have obeyed from the heart” Romans 6:17

“Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh” 1Corinthians 7:1

“If any man therefore purge himself” 2Timothy 2:21

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” James 4:2

“Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners, and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” James 4:8

“Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep; let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.” James 4:9

“Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord” James 4:10

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth” 1Peter 1:22

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” Revelations 22:17

Jesus spoke of one individual who first said “I will not” when confronted with a request, but then “afterward repented” and did according to it. And there was another who first said he would, but afterward repented and did it not. (Matt 21:28-30) This clearly shows that a man can change his mind; that is, he can change his will; he can will contrary to his previous will, because the will is at all times a free faculty with the power of contrary choice. If this were not true, this parable could not be true, and Christ would be found a liar, which He most certainly is not.

Forced obedience and forced disobedience is a contradiction in terms. Obedience and disobedience must be willful, voluntary, and intentional; they must be from the heart (Matthew 12:35, Matthew 15:18-19, Romans 6:17).

The unconverted are totally responsible for their impenitent state, for their hardness against the truth (Romans 2:5), as all sinful men are completely responsible for their immoral state, because of the freedom of their will. God therefore appeals in scripture to the will of man, to turn away from sin and turn to Him, to be completely and utterly dependant upon the Holy Spirit for instruction and guidance into all the ways of righteousness and holiness, to be entirely dependant upon His grace and mercy for the forgiveness of all repented sins. The only thing that keeps sinners from the forgiveness of God is an unwillingness to turn from sin and to seek after Him. (Matthew 7:7, 2Peter 3:9)

“They that would not come [to Christ], ought not to impute it to another, but only to themselves, because, when they are called, it was in the power of their free will to come.” Augustine *10

[b]THE CRIMINALITY OF TRANGRESSION: SINNERS ARE REBELS NOT VICTIMS[/b]

True total moral depravity is when a sinner never chooses to do rightly or benevolently, but only wickedly or selfishly. Those who never choose to do rightly, which are all men prior to conversion to Christ, are totally morally depraved. But moral depravity is not natural inability. Character and capabilities must not be confused; character and constitution are not identical. Character does not consist in your faculties, but in the usage of those faculties. Inability would not, could not, and is not sin. Only unwillingness to do rightly, when there is the capability of doing rightly, is sin - sin that is punishable by eternal torment.

Sinners sin because they want to, not because they have to, and that is where the criminality of transgression consists. Sinners are criminals in their will, not victims of their nature, constitution, or faculties. Sinners are criminals because they sin when they do not have to sin; sinners are sinners because they rebel against God when they could surrender and obey God. Sinners are criminals because they sin, and they sin because they want to. A sinner is a sinner by choice, not by force or necessity, and is therefore a rebel and not a victim, with nobody to blame for his sin but himself.

A mans guilt is proportioned to his ability, being guilty only to the extent that he was capable of better. Justice does not allow guilt to exceed ability; ability must always precede guilt. Capability determines responsibility and responsibility determines accountability. Capability (ability), responsibility (obligation), and accountability (awarding and punishing according praiseworthiness or blameworthiness) are in an inseparable relation one towards another, so that none can exist if one does not exist; they equally limit each other. They are an inseparable chain that stands or falls together. One is not accountable unless he is responsible, and one is not responsible unless he is capable.

“Sin is always a wrong voluntary attitude or purpose of life, or a wrong motive of heart. Sin is not a fixed something back of the will controlling its actions. The will determines the nature of character... We are sinners simply because we choose to sin or live selfishly. We are never held accountable for what we are not the author of. Ability is always the measure of responsibility.” Gordon Olson *11

Jesus rightly rebuked the unrepentant because they were unwilling; He did not cruelly rebuke the unable for not doing (John 5:40) They were criminals who rightly needed rebuking, because they were unwilling, not because they were unable. Sinners are voluntarily unwilling, not constitutionally unable. Men cannot blame Adam, Eve, Satan, God, society, or nature for their sin and impenitence. Those who are unconverted are unconverted, not because of God or anything else, but because of themselves, because they “would not come” unto Jesus that they “might have life” (John 5:40). Sinners have nothing but their own will to blame for their rebellion against the law of God and their refusal to come to Jesus Christ.

As the Saintly A. W. Tozer rightly said, “What man ought to do, he can do” *12

We are accountable only to our obligations. A man cannot be accountable for that which he was not obligated to do. And our obligations are respecting our abilities only. A man cannot be obligated to do that which he was unable to do. Therefore those who must do better can do better and those who can do better must do better. Account-ability is the giving of account of one’s use of ability, being accountable in accordance to ones capabilities. You are accountable only for what you can do; and what you can do, you are accountable for.

All sinners voluntarily choose to sin, to abuse their ability; to do what they know is wrong. And therein is the criminality of transgression, the guilt of rebellion, and the justice of eternal damnation.

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[b]2.MORAL KNOWLEDGE: a Necessary Prerequisite to Moral Ability, thus a Necessary Prerequisite to Moral Accountability[/b]

[b]THE RELATION OF MORAL KNOWLEDGE TO MORAL ABILITY[/b]

To be accountable to do better, one must know to do better. One could not be capable of doing better if they did not know to do better. Since accountability never exceeds ability, accountability never exceeds knowledge, since knowledge is a prerequisite of ability.

What a man does not know to do, a man is not and could not be capable of doing. And what a man is not capable of, a man cannot be accountable for. Accountability is always in accordance with ability; accountability is always in accordance with knowledge, because knowledge is a precondition of ability.

Knowledge and ability are interwoven. By logically connection, since ability is the unalterable and undeniable condition of accountability, knowledge must also be an unalterable and undeniable condition of accountability, since knowledge is a necessary requirement of ability.

One cannot write a paper who does not know how to write at all; one cannot swim who does not know how to swim. Knowing how is a precondition to actually doing. They may have the natural ability to learn how to write and to learn how to swim, but without the knowledge of how, they simply cannot actually perform or really do. Without knowledge one may have the capability of ability, but not the actuality of ability; that is, they may be capable of achieving or capable of learning before knowledge, (such capability of learning being a prerequisite to the attainment of any knowledge) but they are not capable of performing or doing until the acquisition of the knowledge has been attained.

Therefore, one is only capable or able of what one is knowledgeable of. And since the extent of accountability is the extent of ability, and the extent of ability is the extent of knowledge, personal accountability cannot, does not, and will not exceed personal knowledge.

[b]THE RELATION OF MORAL KNOWLEDGE TO MORAL ACCOUNTABILITY[/b]

Accountability never can, does, or will exceed ability; and ability never can, does, or will exceed knowledge. One is only accountable to what one is capable of, and one is only capable of what one is knowledgeable of. One cannot be morally accountable if one is not morally capable, and one is not morally capable of what one is not morally knowledgeable of.

“Where no law is, there is no transgression.” Romans 4:15

“To him who knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17

“A…condition of moral obligation is light, or so much knowledge of our relations as to develop the idea of ought-ness…the perception or idea of the intrinsically valuable.” Charles G. Finney *13

Increased knowledge equals increased responsibility which necessitates an increase in accountability. The more knowledge that one has, the more that one will be accountable for. Therefore increased disobedience to increased knowledge equals an increased guilt. Violation of greater knowledge is a “greater sin” (John 19:11) which necessitates a “greater condemnation” (Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47, James 3:1). A “greater sin” is a violation of greater knowledge. All sin is equal in its nature, being rebellion against light or known law. But not all sin is equal in its guilt or deservingness of punishment, which is measured and determined by the amount of light sinned against.

Not a single soul has even gone to hell for not knowing better then to sin. But all souls have gone to hell because they knew better then to sin and to rebel against God. All sin is a violation of what is intelligent, against what is reasonable, against the intuitions of the reason and against the clearly perceived dictations of the conscience, against known moral law. Sin is never reasonable, intelligence, or excusable. God has given a conscience to all men of all nations (John 1:9, Rom 2:15, Rom 1:21) which testifies of His own existence and declares His reasonable moral demands. Con-science is “con” and “science” which mean’s “with-knowledge”. All intelligent individuals have knowledge, and therefore know better in accordance with their knowledge, and thereby ought to will in accordance with their knowledge. All sinners with a con-science sin with-knowledge that it is wrong.

The measure of responsibility/obligation, accountability/guilt is in exact proportion to the mind’s perception of moral law, proportioned exactly to the individual’s knowledge of right and wrong. A mans guilt is proportioned to his ability, and his ability is proportioned to his knowledge, being guilty only to the extent that he was capable of better and being capable of better only to the extend that he knew better. Guilt cannot exceed ability; ability cannot exceed knowledge, ability must precede guilt, and knowledge must precede ability. So moral guilt can only proceed out of moral knowledge and moral ability.

Therefore personal accountability will never exceed personal knowledge. All are judged by the knowledge that they possess, and are found innocent or guilty in accordance with that knowledge.

If a man sins a “sin of ignorance” (Lev 4:13), doing that which “ought not to be done” (Lev 4:2) “when he knows of it” only “then he shall be guilty” (Lev 5:3), being held responsible only when it is “known”. (Lev 4:14)

Moral responsibility and moral accountability cannot exceed moral knowledge. Moral knowledge is an unmovable precondition of moral guilt. The entire world is guilty of sin because they entire world has a conscience, the entire world knows better.

[b]THE CLEAR AND EXPLICIT TEACHING OF DIVINE INSPIRATION RESPECTING MORAL KNOWLEDGE AND MORAL ACCOUNTABILITY[/b]

That a man is guilty only to the extend that he knew better; that accountability is measured by knowledge; and increased knowledge equals increased accountability, can be clearly derived from the following passages:

“Woe unto thee, Chorazin! Woe unto thee, Bethsaida! For if the might works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, then for you.” Matthew 11:21-22

“And that servant, which knew his Lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did not commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required” Luke 12:47-48

“Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Luke 23:34

“Jesus said unto them, if ye were blind, ye would have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remains.” John 9:41

“If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin.” John 15:22

“Where no law is, there is no transgression.” Romans 4:15

“Sin is not imputed when there is no law.” Romans 5:13

“To him who knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17

Some sinners have a “greater sin” John 19:11

Hypocrites (who all know better) will have a greater damnation: Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47

Teachers (who by necessity know more) are accountable to a stricter judgment: James 3:1

See also: Matt 10:15, Matt 11:24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12, Luke 10:14, Heb 10:26, 2Peter 2:21

And so it is abundantly seen that all men are judged and accountable to the knowledge that they have; those with little knowledge are accountable to that little knowledge, no more and no less; those with greater knowledge are accountable to that greater knowledge, no more and no less; but personal moral responsibility and personal moral accountability never exceeds the limits of personal moral knowledge.

[b]MORAL KNOWLEDGE AND THE AGE OF MORAL ACCOUNTABILITY[/b]

The scriptures teach what is commonly called “the age of accountability” or “the age of reason”, when a child reaches the age when his mind is developed and he has a proper conscious idea of right and wrong; when he can knowingly affirm and distinguish between the good and the evil.

“Your children, which….had no knowledge between good and evil” Deut 1:39

“For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good” Isaiah 7:16

“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil” Rom 9:11

“To him who knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17

Psychology itself testifies that the mind of a child slowly develops and is not fully developed at birth. When an individual has the conscious idea of right and wrong, and has the perception of the Divine and the human value and worth, then they are accountable for their moral actions and states. But if one does not know any better, then they cannot do any better, and therefore has no sin or guilt. Guilt can only be prescribed to him that knows to do better then what he does, to those who “know to do right” but “does it not”. Moral ignorance is moral innocence, as the moral condition of Adam and Eve was innocent, though naked, before the opening of their eyes when they knew right from wrong.

One can be guilty or praiseworthy of nothing except for that which is intentionally committed, and nothing can be intentionally committed that was not knowingly committed, that which was known to be right or wrong.

“Moral law is a pure and simple idea of the reason. It is the idea of perfect, universal, and constant consecration of the whole being to the highest good of being. Just this is, and nothing more or less can be, moral law; for just this, and nothing more or less, is a state of heart and a course of life exactly suited to the nature and relations of moral agents, which alone is the only true definition of moral law.” Charles. G. Finney *14

All intelligent agents are therefore moral agents; all with a conscience (moral consciousness) are accountable to that conscience (moral consciousness), no more and no less.

Jesus Christ had “innocent blood” (Matt 27:4, Matt 27:24) because he had never sinned (2Cor 5:21), and new born babies have “innocent blood” (Deut 19:10, 2Kings 24:4, Ps 106:38) because they haven’t sinned (Rom 9:11) but are morally guilty when their conscience (moral consciousness) develops and they choose to voluntarily sin for themselves, against their better judgment.

[b]THE RELATION OF MORAL KNOWLEDGE TO REPROBATION AND APOSTACY[/b]

The more that one grows in the knowledge of the Lord, yet continues sinning even with their increased knowledge, the closer they are to reprobation when it would be no longer possible for them to be reached, because it would be impossible to enlighten them anymore then what they already have been.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” Heb 6:4-6

There is a point when a person received enough knowledge that should have sufficiently secured their total conversion and perseverance in the faith, when no more knowledge could be added to the knowledge already received, which leaves the individual in total reprobation or totally inability to be saved, because they have refused to submit to all the possible influence that could have been exerted. Anyone who chooses to sin every day, yet grows in the knowledge of the Lord every day, becomes closer and closer to total and incurable reprobation every day. Once they have been “enlightened” and have “tasted” and have been “partakers”, yet are still disobedient, it is then “impossible” to “renew them again unto repentance”.

One who grows “in the knowledge of our Lord” must “grow in grace” (2Peter 3:18) or ultimately become reprobate. He that “receives the knowledge of the truth”, but continues in “willful” disobedience, faces “fiery indignations” (Heb 10:26-27). Such a one will have “sorer” or worse “punishment” (Heb 10:28). The more knowledge one receives the more obedience one must increase in. The one who grows in “hardness and impenitence of heart”, refusing to obey the perceived truth, “treasures up” “wrath” which will be poured out on the day of wrath”. (Rom 2:5). Those that have “once escaped the pollutions of the world through knowledge” and yet are “once again entangled in them”, it would have “been better for them not to have known” then to “have known” and yet “turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them”, and “the latter end is worst with them then the beginning”. (2Peter 2:20-21) The sinner with more knowledge is worst then the sinner with less knowledge.

Those who refuse the “knowledge of God” end up with a “reprobate mind”. (Romans 1:28) Those who “resist the truth” become “reprobate” because of their “corrupt minds”. (2Timothy 3:8) Reprobation is when the heart has rejected all the possible light that could be given to their minds to secure their conversion, when the will is in a state of impenitence and hardness towards all possible knowledge designed to secure repentance.

[b]THE CRIMINALITY OF TRANGRESSION: SINNERS ARE CRIMINALS AND NOT VICTIMS[/b]

Criminality, or guilt, is prescribed solely to the inward intention of the heart, or to the purpose or motive of the will, and does not consist solely in the outward actions. God is not at all described in the scriptures as being impressed with outward actions, but rather as looking upon and judging the motives and intentions of the heart. Gen 6:5, 1Sam 16:7, Joel 2:12-14, Matt 5:8, Matt 6:1-5, Matt 12:35, Matt 15:11, Matt 15:17-20, Matt 23:25-28, Mark 7:15-23, Luke 10:27, Hebrews 4:12, 1Tim 1:5, Titus 1:15

The intention and motive is what God is concerned about. You are as your intention is. The intention for adultery is adultery (Matthew 5:28), the intention for murder is murder (1John 3:15). A man is as guilty as his intention is. Moral character, or the quality of a person’s moral state, consists in the moral condition of their inward intention, being either that of criminality or rectitude.

The Pharisees appeared “outwardly righteous” but were “inwardly full of iniquity” (Matt 23:28) because they fasted and prayed to be seen of men. (Matt 6:5, Matt 23:5). They were as their inward motive was, not as their outward works were. They were not even in the least bit righteous, but were full of iniquity; because what they did, they did selfishly and not benevolently; they did it for themselves and not for God and others; and virtue consists solely in benevolence of heart while sin consists solely in selfishness of heart.

When the inward intention is morally wrong (selfish), the outward action which follows from it, no matter what sort it is (even praying and fasting), does not grant any moral character to the moral agent except from its relation to the individual’s motive. And where the intention is morally right (benevolent), there can be no moral guilt (1Cor 6:12, 1Cor 10:23, Titus 1:15), since guilt is prescribed solely to a wrong (selfish) intention.

“The fact is, that moral agents are so constituted that it is impossible for them not to judge themselves, and others, by their subjective motives and intentions. They cannot but assume, as a first truth, that a man’s character is as his intention is, and consequently, that moral obligation respects, directly, intention only.” Charles G. Finney *15

Responsibility, accountability, and therefore criminality, does not exceed the boundaries of the inward intention, which of necessity and inevitably manifests itself in outward action and conduct whenever possible and required.

Because criminality is prescribed to intention, and intention depends upon knowledge (to intend to do something one must know they are intending to do something), sinners are sinners not because they do not know any better but rather because they do not will any better, because they do not intend in accordance with their conscience, in alignment with the intuitions of their reason. Their guilt lies in their knowledge of good and evil, combined with their refusal to choose, will, or intend the good over the evil. If there was no knowledge, there could be no guilt. For moral guilt is measured by moral knowledge. Total ignorance would necessitate total innocence. But knowledge, combined with unwillingness to obey knowledge, necessitates guilt in proportion to the knowledge.

You are as your intention is, and your guilt is as your knowledge is. One is as morally guilty as he is unwilling to obey the moral knowledge that he has, no more and no less. A sinner is a criminal for intentionally going against the demands of his conscience. A sinner is a criminal for sinning against his better judgment; for voluntarily, knowingly, and intentionally choosing the evil when he had the available option and ability of choosing the good.

[b]THE EXTENT OF PERSONAL MORAL GUILT[/b]

Because the extent of personal guilt or sin cannot, does not, and will not exceed the boundaries of personal ability, and therefore personal knowledge, and therefore personal intention, a moral agent is only accountable for their own personal actions. The extent of personal guilt is the extent of personal sin.

A child is therefore not accountable for the sins of the father. The whole of mankind is not accountable for the sins of the one man Adam. But each man is accountable for their own sins voluntarily done in their own body. Divine inspiration clearly ascribes personal guilt to personal sins only. Sinners go to hell for their own voluntary, avoidable, optional, personal violations of God’s reasonable and good moral law. The law of God that condemns sinners is reasonable and moral, not burdensome and tyrannical, seeing that all who are obligated to keep it are capable of keeping it. No man has ever gone to hell for the sins of another, just as no man has ever gone to hell for not knowing better or for failure to performing impossibilities. The one who sins shall die for his own sin. All sinners go to hell for their own transgressions or violations of God’s moral law; sinners are condemned for originating their own sin.

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16

“The Lord commanded, saying, the fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but everyman shall be put to death for his own sin.” 2Kings 14:6

“The Lord commanded, saying, the fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but everyman shall die for his own sin.” 2Chronicals 25:4

“Yet say ye, why? Doeth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all of my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” Ezekiel 18:19-20

“God hath made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions” Ecclesiastes 7:29

“Who will render to everyman according to his deeds.” Romans 2:6

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, weather it be good or bad.” 2Corinthians 5:10

“All our damnation is of ourselves, through our avoidable unfaithfulness…everyone shall die for his own avoidable iniquity.” John Fletcher *16

“For how can He punish [with endless torments] a nature which had no power to do good, but was bound in the hands of wickedness?” Theodorite *17

“Neither promises nor apprehensions, rewards, no punishments are just if the soul has not the power of choosing and abstaining; if evil is involuntary.” Clemens of Alexandria *18

This is the clear and explicit teaching, the infallible truth of the justice of God found in the Divine revelation of inspiration; that each man is personally judged and condemned according to his own personal deeds, and not by the deeds of another.

Remember, a sharp distinction must be made between the physical and the moral; a difference must be discretely drawn between the constitutional and the ethical. This is of vital importance to a sound theology.

PHYSICAL DEPRAVITY: We genetically inherit our physical make-up or physical constitution from our parents, with its physical lusts, physical cravings, physical desires, and physical depravities: Genesis 1:21, 1Corinthians 15:21-22, 1Corinthians 15:38-39, Heb 2:14. But physical constitutions have no moral character in and of themselves, apart from their voluntary use as controlled by the will or heart of man: Matthew 15:17-20, Mark 7:15, Romans 6:13

MORAL DEPRAVITY: We do not inherit the guilt or sin of our parents, being accountable and judged only for our own sins, our own voluntary moral depravity; as well as rewarded only for our own works: Deut 24:16, 2Kings 14:6, 2Chron 25:4, Ezekiel 18:2-4, Ezekiel 18:19-20, Matt 16:27, Rom 2:6, Rom 2:8-9, Rom 9:11, 2Cor 5:10, 2Cor 11:15, James 4:17, Rev 22:12.

With such abundant and clear teaching revealed by God Himself, it is a wonder so many have stumbled greatly at this point, bring much confusion to the consciences and minds of both the Church and the world of lost sinners, with unreasonable and uninspired views of guilt and accountability; namely that one is accountable for that which was beyond his control, without his consent, without his knowledge, and that one is accountable for the sins of another.

Absurd doctrinal dogmas as those do not help in the conversion of souls, bringing no personal conviction of sin, as they are repulsive to the consciences of men. Preaching and teaching such views as those are destructive to a proper perspective of sin and sinners, God and His Kingdom (or Government). The minds of men simply cannot affirm guilt beyond the boundaries of knowledge, ability, and intention; they cannot ascribe personal guilt to that which was not personal, intentional, and within their control; and neither do the infallible, inspired scriptures teach such things. God couldn’t have been any clearer then He was in the scriptures listed above.

[b]CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER[/b]

None can prove, either with reason or with revelation, that men are accountable beyond their ability or beyond their knowledge. If anyone assumes such views, the burden is upon them to try to prove it.

The reasonably sound and explicit teachings of inspiration is that all men are accountable to what they know and to what they are capable of, being judged solely for that which was voluntary, for that which was within their realm of knowledge and control. Moral accountability never exceeds the extents of moral knowledge and moral ability, but divine judgment is directed exclusively towards moral intention; to what was knowingly, intentionally, and voluntarily committed.

When there is moral knowledge and moral ability there is moral accountability. But where there is no moral knowledge and no moral ability, there could not be any moral accountability. Moral agency is conditioned upon these. If a man does not know better, he could not be accountable or obligated to do better. And if a man is not capable of doing better, he could not be accountable or obligated to do better. Intelligence and freedom are necessary requisites for moral agency. Thus a moral agent is judged according to his moral intelligence and moral ability. Only an intelligent, free moral agent is capable of vice, virtue, blameworthiness, and praiseworthiness. Only an intelligent, free moral agent is subjected to obligation and accountability; subjected to Moral Government.

This is why God has given light to every man and why God calls all men everywhere to repent; all men are accountable because all men know better and are capable of better. Nobody sins out of necessity but sin is always an abuse of liberty or a deviation of God’s intention in granting the gift of free-will.

Jerome of the Early Church wrote, “God has bestowed us with free will. We are not necessarily drawn either to virtue or vice. For when necessity rules, there is no room left either for damnation or the crown.” *19

We must take the message of eternal accountability to the world, confronting sinners who are criminals because of their intention, as opposed to victims of their circumstances; as moral agents who know better then to sin and are capable of forsaking all their sins and surrendering entirely to the Lord Jesus Christ.

We must preach in accordance with the Holy Spirit which seeks to grip the hearts of rebels with the fear of the Lord at the contemplation of their eternal accountability, convicting or convincing their minds of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come (John 16:8, Acts 24:25). They must see their need of grace for the forgiveness of sins, to be awakened to the dire need of the pardon of their defiance and rebellion in order to have a right relationship with God and eternal life with Jesus Christ. All men need Jesus Christ, not because they can’t obey God, but because they haven’t obeyed God; and therein lay the reason for the need of the grace and mercy of God which comes through the cross, the forgiveness of open rebellion.

Sinners must see their need of God’s instruction, to be lead into all holiness by the Holy Spirit, who alone can infallibly instruct and lead men as to the proper use of their God given abilities and faculties. As one cannot learn Latin without a Latin teacher, one cannot learn to live holy without the Holy Spirit. All men must voluntary yield to and obey the light that God reveals, the truth imparted by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:1, Romans 8:14)

While free-will is what makes a man a man, a personally accountable agent, instead of a mere necessitated machine; the faculties and capacities of men were not intended or purposed to work and operate autonomously; their proper functions are not independent of God and His revelation, but rather are dependent upon God and His revelation; as He reveals truth to our intelligence, to our reason and our conscience, being lead by the revelation of the Holy Spirit revealed to our consciousness, directing and influencing our will. Any use, other then the use intended and purposed by God, must be an improper use of our faculties and abilities, and is nothing short of damnable rebellion and sin.

Man is therefore always and eternally dependant upon God for right and proper conduct, for the right and proper function of his faculties; dependant upon God for instruction, guidance, correction, and encouragement. (Acts 6:10, 1Corinthians 2:10, Galatians 3:24, Ephesians 3:16, Titus 2:11-12) Thus the Holy Spirit always initiates the conversion of men (John 6:44, John 12:32), being the antecedent to the heart conversion of those who repent and believe. (Romans 8:11, 1Corinthians 12:3)

We must work along side the Holy Spirit, being “laborers together with God” (1Cor 3:9, 2Cor 6:1), in a synergetic relationship, both to live holy ourselves (John 15:5) and to help convert the world to Christ (1Corinthians 3:6-7); to press the minds of men with their personal guilt because of their personal knowledge and because of their personal ability, thus revealing to them their personal need of the personal Savior Jesus Christ for the personal pardon of all the personal sins of their personal past. (Rom 3:25)

God help us in this extraordinary task; in this eternally important mission – the reconciliation of a rebellious world to a holy and good Creator.

[b]SOURCE OF THE QUOTES FOUND ABOVE[/b]

*1 Augustine; Joy and Strength, pg 192, published by Grosset & Dunlap 1929

*2 Charles G. Finney; Lectures on Systematic Theology, 1851 Edition, pg 35

*3 Charles G. Finney; Lectures on Systematic Theology, 1851 Edition, pg 46-47

*4 E. M. Bounds; The Complete Works of E. M. Bounds on Prayer, pg 53; Baker Books

*5 John Fletcher; Checks to Antinomianism by John Fletcher, Second Check, pg 142, 145, 146

*6 Winkie Pratney; The Nature of Sin, pg 5

* 7 Justin the Martyr; Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 61, published by Truth in Heart

* 8 Turtullian; Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 61, published by Truth in Heart

*9 Origen; Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 62, published by Truth in Heart

*10 Augustine; Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 63, published by Truth in Heart

*11 Gordon Olson: The Truth Shall Set You Free, pg 71-72

*12 A. W. Tozer; Sermon on SermonIndex.net

*13 Charles G. Finney; Lectures on Systematic Theology, 1851 Edition, pg 47

*14 Charles G. Finney; Lectures on Systematic Theology, 1851 Edition, pg 36

*15 Charles G. Finney; Lectures on Systematic Theology, 1851 Edition, pg 56

*16 John Fletcher; Checks to Antinomianism by John Fletcher, Second Check, pg 130, 147

*17 Theodorite; Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 62, published by Truth in Heart

*18 Theodorite; Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 63, published by Truth in Heart

*19 Jerome; Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, pg 62, published by Truth in Heart

P
philologos

Is this intended to be a genuine matter for discussion or is it just more Finney propaganda? Do you want to discuss this or do you just want us to role over and believe it?

S
sermonindex

It's just a biblical article. Please, feel free to discuss any of the scriptural points listed in the article brother.

R
roaringlamb

I'm glad you asked first Ron. It seems Jesse that you leave these little "bombs" and then go away never to really discuss, or see if your ideas hold water.

I am concerned that you are aiding the resurrection of semi-Pelagianism, and are on a dangerous road if indeed you are boasting of your own moral uprightness as Finney was known to do.

S
sermonindex

I have been in "cross-fire" theological debates on this website more times then I can count. I certainly do not just post articles and then leave. But articles have their place.

There are deffinate theological points that I disagree with Finney on, as well as Pelagius on.

But this article has nothing to do with Finney or Pelagius.

You guys seem to be dismissing it before even reading it.

All the article is saying is that we are accountable for that which we know, and for that which we are capable of, as the bible clearly teaches. Nothing heredical in that.

But then again, there isn't any augustinian/calvinism in it either. By some standards, anything except for that is "HERESY!" Interesting how mere men can become the standard of "sound orthodoxy".

Besides, I quote the Early Church fathers to back up what the scriptures clearly are saying, as well as quote men of God like Fletcher and Tozer and others who God has used through the ages.

Basicly:

1. We are accountable for all that we know

2. We are accountable for all that we can do

S
sermonindex

Can men obey God? Are God's Laws Impossible?

Honestly Jesse, (and I don't mean to sound rude) but the question does not even matter.

The slightest sin that man commits absolutely offends the Holiness of God. So man just deciding then to now obey God, even if he could obey all the commands of God, would not...could not, satisfy the Holy Justice of God. It is impossible.

A perfect sacrifice was needed. Perfect obedience was needed. ; A perfect life. ; A Holy Sacrifice equal to the Holy Justice that was offended.

The bottom line is that all men are DEAD...in their sins and trespasses. We are all headed for a court room where we will be judged according to a Perfect, Holy, Law. We will be judged by a Holy Judge who, according to His Just nature must judge men based upon how they have obeyed that law. He is not mean, He is Just. He loves His Law. It is perfect. It is good.

My obedience, before or after the Cross, will not allow me to stand before that Judge with any confidence, whatsoever! How about you?

I choose to trust in the righteousness of another. I choose to not justify myself, but be justified by the life, death, and resurrection of another. I will receive, with humility, the gift that God has so freely offered. His Son! My plea on that day will be...Jesus!

So, I can live however I like now, and then just claim the righteousness of Christ on that day?

Anyone who says that has neither seen Christ, nor do they know Him.

Knowing the terror of the Lord, We persuade men!

S
sermonindex

The blood of Christ only covers those who turn from sin and turn to Christ (which is obedience):

Heb 5:9 - And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

The blood of Christ does not cover the disobedient:

Hebrews 10:26-31 - "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

The disobedient must perish eternally in hell. Men must stop sinning in this life, or they will never stop sinning in the next life. And God cannot let sin into Heaven, lest His kingdom become the Kingdom of devils.

Luke 13:3 "Unless you repent, you will perish".

John 3:3 "Unless a man is born again, he will not see the kingdom of God."

When God looked upon the Churches in revelations, He did not say, "I see the righteousness of Christ". No no no! He said, "I see your works" and "REPENT!" Revelations 3

If a person trusts in the "righteousness of Christ" to cover their present and future disobedience, they'll go to hell. The blood of Christ covers only sins that are repented of, only "sins of the past"! (Romans 3:25)

The disobedient workers of iniquity must perish, they will hear the dreadful words "depart from me!" (Mt 7:23, Lu 13:27)

To say that the question, "Can we obey God" doesn't matter, is to say that sin doesn't matter. That is one of the worst heresies the devil ever invented, it's called antinomianism! Or lawlessness! Sin certainly does matter to God! Sin certainly will cost you your soul.

Christ died for everyone, even those who will end up in hell. But the difference between those who end up in Heaven and those who end up in hell, is that those in Heaven are those who repent from sin and turn to Jesus, while those in hell continue to sin (daily) and thus reject Jesus Christ (as Lord and therefore as Savior).

R
roaringlamb

Christ died for everyone, even those who will end up in hell. But the difference between those who end up in Heaven and those who end up in hell, is that those in Heaven are those who repent from sin and turn to Jesus, while those in hell continue to sin (daily) and thus reject Jesus Christ (as Lord and therefore as Savior).

This is not true Jesse, and you have now created a christ for yourself, but it is not the Christ of Scripture. Christ Himself declared, "it is finished" to which we would ask, "what was finished?"
Matthew 1:21 tells us that Christ would save His people from their sins, not all people, just His people. So this would be one thing finished.

Next, we see that Isiaiah prophesied
"Isaiah 53:11 [b]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;[/b] for he shall bear their iniquities.

What you have done is presented a god who is impotent to save anyone without their consent and made man the sovereign while God is obligated to the sidelines, anxiously hoping someone , anyone will choose Him. This is not the God of the Scriptures who actively pursues His people and regenrates them so they will believe, and be saved. If it was not for the new heart, no man could believe.

Again I ask you to read the Synod of Dordt, or the Council of Orange, and look at what was decided by men who were very godly men. Of course your rebuttal will be that the Church Fathers never spoke of these things. True, but the Church fathers also negelcted much of Justification by faith as well, should we throw that out too?

S
sermonindex

First of all, an antinomian is someone who is against God's Law.

I don't think I said one thing about being against God's Law. In fact, I think I emphasized the fact that all men will be judged by that Law one day. The law, God's commands, are good. They are Life! I want to obey God. I love Him!

But dude...yes dude. I live in reality!

Let me ask you a question...Are you married? Do you have kids? Do you, or have you ever lost your temper with those closest to you? Well I have, and I know that it is sin!

If any married person on this forum is honest he/ she will admit that God has used those closest to them to expose some horrendous sin in their lives.

Reality is not ministry! Reality is not open-air preaching. Reality is not a pulpit! Reality is day to day living and learning to honestly love and lay your life down for those closest to you.

And in that reality our hellish sinful nature will be exposed. This is where we learn that Christ is our everything. This is where we learn that Christ is our righteousness. This is where we learn who we are in Christ. This is where we learn to allow Him to live His life through us.

Jesse, I lived according to your Gospel, and it brought me somewhere. To a place of death...of abject weakness!

WHAT A WONDERFUL PLACE!

N
Nile

My obedience, before or after the Cross, will not allow me to stand before that Judge with any confidence, whatsoever! How about you?

But...

1 John 3:21
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

K
KingJimmy

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, [b]even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.[/b] 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so [b]through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.[/b]

P
philologos

It's just a biblical article. Please, feel free to discuss any of the scriptural points listed in the article brother.

but what if I want to discuss them with YOU? Will you return and answer points that are made or is this to be just another 'finney hand-grenade' lobbed in and abandoned?

P
philologos

A child is therefore not accountable for the sins of the father. The whole of mankind is not accountable for the sins of the one man Adam.

This would be 'original guilt' which I personally would not assent to. However 'original condemnation' is a thoroughly Biblical concept.
Rom. 5:16 (ASV) And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.

Rom. 5:18 (ASV) So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

Rom. 8:1 (ASV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. Please explain what you understand by 'one trespass' culminating in 'condemnation' coming to 'all men'>

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Rom&chapter=8&verse=1&strongs=2631&page=]katakrima[/url] is 'judgement against the accused'.

M
MikeH


Lazarus1719 wrote:
[b]CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER[/b]

None can prove, either with reason or with revelation, that men are accountable beyond their ability or beyond their knowledge. If anyone assumes such views, the burden is upon them to try to prove it.

Many legal systems, especially those based on Christian principles, hold that ignorance of the law is no excuse. In fancy legal/latin jargon "Ignorantia juris non excusat" or "Ignorantia legis neminem excusat". If you wish to find the proof look in any basic text book on jurisprudence. Those will provide the proof you need, based on reason.

Mike

K
KingJimmy

Geez, I just looked at the article in my print preview. Jesse, if you are actually interested in an actual discussion, why would you post something that is equal to about 20 printed pages worth of material? Honestly, I don't see how you can post this article saying you are interested in discussion. As with all the articles you post on here, they correspond to your newsletters which contain the exact same thing. What exactly is it that you were hoping to discuss?

Aren't you just doing with your articles what you were doing so long with your music-video type things you used to post on here of you street preaching, for which you were forbidden to do? Isn't this just another form of self-promotion, just on a more limited scale?

E
enid

The original post asked a question, 'Are God's Laws Impossible?'

Luke 1v37, 'For with God nothing will be impossible'

God bless.

R
RobertW

CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will [u]manifest myself to him[/u]. (John 14:21)

I am trying to reckon with the underlying understanding of the whole of this type of Christianity. Is it the understanding of those who follow Finney that the whole of the Christian life is to discover a law and obey it? Maybe I am just greatly misunderstanding the theology- but it seems like the expression of faith is very lifeless and legalistic law based religion that finds its greatest expression in total compliance to the law of God. Although this seems pious on the surface- it seems to be a very dead approach to God if the intent is not to have genuine fellowship with God through His Holy Spirit.

R
RobertW

All sinners voluntarily choose to sin, to abuse their ability; to do what they know is wrong. And therein is the criminality of transgression, the guilt of rebellion, and the justice of eternal damnation.

But this is not the point and I believe Finney missed it. Men need to be born again because, though they are guilty, have the nature of the children of wrath. They could have chosen [u]not[/u] to sin- but their nature is one of rebellion against God. They have the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. They have to die to Sin through Christ in order to be loosed from it's slavery (Romans 7). This is not just liberty from the Law- but from Sin. If the law is removed so is the legal binding of Sin and sinner. If one is dead to the law- they are dead also to Sin. The binding element is removed.

J
JaySaved

“Does God give commandments which men cannot obey? Is He so arbitrary, so severe, so unloving, as to issue commandments which cannot be obeyed? The answer is that in all of annals of Holy Scripture, not a single instance is recorded of God having commanded any man to do a thing, which was beyond his power. Is God so unjust and so inconsiderate as to require of man that which he is unable to render? To infer is to slander the character of God.” E. M. Bounds *4
(Emphasis mine)

Can God command a man to do something that is impossible for the man to do in his own ability? Ask Lazarus.

K
KingJimmy

Finney and Jesse speak as if salvation is merely deciding to live a life of obedience instead of disobedience. But where this theology falls apart is that our obedience to the law is never grounds for having a confident standing before God. Even if a sinner should turn from sin and forsake his way, a life of perfect obedience from that point on will mean nothing. For as Romans 5 makes clear, it is based on the obedience of Christ that we are made to have right standing with God. Only the obedience of Christ means anything.

Now, don't misunderstand me as preaching some sort of antinomianism. I fully believe we are to obey God as Christians, and that if we are not walking in obedience, then we are falling short of His grace. But the obedience we have as Christians is an obedience that springs out of the salvation we have experienced with a new heart and mind that desires to walk in fellowship with God. But before this new heart and new mind, as Romans 6 makes clear, we are free from doing anything that is truly righteous.

L
Logic

KingJimmy wrote:
For as Romans 5 makes clear, it is based on the obedience of Christ that we are made to have right standing with God. Only the obedience of Christ means anything.

This doctrine of an imputed obedience for righteousness, [b]or[/b] of that Christ’s obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience, is founded on a false assumption.

Christ’s obedience could do no more than justify himself. It can never be imputed to us. It is naturally impossible for him to obey in our behalf as a proxy.

This doctrine intends that Christ owed no obedience to the law, and therefore his obedience to the law was superfluous.
Would not Christ have sinned had he not been perfectly obedient? If he would have sinned, it follows that He owed obedience to the law, just as any other man.

But the obedience we have as Christians is an obedience that springs out of the salvation we have experienced with a new heart and mind that desires to walk in fellowship with God.

This is said more clearly, because it does not imply that Christs obediance becomes our rightousness.

"It is [b]our[/b] obedience that springs [u]out of the salvation[/u] we have"

We obey because we are saved.

R
roaringlamb

There is only One who lived in perfect obedience, and by the grace of God His righteousness is imputed to our accounts. This is justification, and of course anyone who is truly justified will be sanctified. By sanctification I mean the process in which God refines and conforms us to the image of Christ producing holiness within and without.

If a man ever could bring any righteousness before God as a means of justification would it not have been Paul? Who would go on to say how in the Law he was blameless, yet this he counted as "dung" to have Christ and His righteousness, or as his righteousness.

Brethren we must face the facts, we are really as bad and depraved as the Scriptures say we are, and apart from God working we would never be anything but fallen and damned.

K
KingJimmy

To show our obedience doesn't mean anything in regard to our approval with God. I think of Paul in Philippians 3. He acknowledges that regarding the Law, he was found blameless. Yet the righteousness that he had through obedience to the Law was not the same righteousness that comes from Christ on the basis of faith. So yes, man, even apart from God is able to obey God's law. Paul is the living proof of this. But Paul's also proof that such simply didn't matter. For even if man does obey God in this regard, he still is entirely lacking the Divine life. Thus Paul's cry is "that I might know Him and the power of His resurrection!" For apart from that life giving resurrection power dwelling in us, we are dead and apart from God.

J
JaySaved

Logic wrote:

This doctrine of an imputed obedience for righteousness, or of that Christ’s obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience, is founded on a false assumption.

Christ’s obedience could do no more than justify himself. It can never be imputed to us. It is naturally impossible for him to obey in our behalf as a proxy.

If what you are saying is true then we are all damned and still in our sins. If what you are saying is false then you need to repent for spreading false doctrine.

So what does scripture say? Romans 4:21-25 (KJV)

(Concerning Abraham)
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Christ died for my offences and was raised for my justification. How could he do that? Only because of his sinlessness while living on Earth. 2 Corinthians 5:21, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

If Christ did not die for my offences and was not raised for my justification then I am damned and without hope. Consider these verses Logic.

P
philologos

This doctrine of an imputed obedience for righteousness, or of that Christ’s obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience, is founded on a false assumption.

Christ’s obedience could do no more than justify himself. It can never be imputed to us. It is naturally impossible for him to obey in our behalf as a proxy.

This doctrine intends that Christ owed no obedience to the law, and therefore his obedience to the law was superfluous.


I presume you DO believe in imputed righteousness?

L
Logic

JaySaved wrote:
If what you are saying is true then we are all damned and still in our sins. If what you are saying is false then you need to repent for spreading false doctrine.
How do you you come to that conclusion from what I said?

philologos wrote:
I presume you DO believe in imputed righteousness?
Yes I do, but it is not His obedience that makes us Rightious, that kept Him righteous for Himself.

The thing that makes us rightous is that He paid the penalty for our sins and [color=990000]took the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way,nailing it to his cross;[/color][b]Col 2:14[/b]
[b]Rom 7:3[/b] [color=990000]So then if, while her husband[/color](righteous requirement of the law) [color=990000]liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.[/color]

In other words, we are rightouse because we are no longer under Law.
[b]Romans 7:4[/b] [color=990000]So that, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, to the One raised from the dead, so that we may bear fruit to God.[/color]
[b]Gal 4:5[/b] [color=990000]that He might redeem the ones under Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.[/color]
[b]Titus 2:14[/b] [color=990000]who gave Himself on our behalf, "that He might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify a special people for Himself," zealous of good works[/color]
[b]And
Heb 9:14[/b]
[color=990000]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works[/color](of the Law) [color=990000]to serve the living God?[/color]
I could go on, but I hope you get my point.

P
philologos

Yes I do, but it is not His obedience that makes us Rightious, that kept Him righteous for Himself.

...so whose righteousness is imputed to the believer? and if it is Christ's would that not include his 'obedience'?


In other words, we are rightouse because we are no longer under Law.

Not at all, we are righteous because we have righteousness imputed to us.

J
JaySaved

...so whose righteousness is imputed to the believer? and if it is Christ's would that not include his 'obedience'?

That is my question as well.

L
Logic

philologos wrote:
Yes I do, but it is not His obedience that makes us Righteous, that kept Him righteous for Himself.

...so whose righteousness is imputed to the believer?
It is not "whose" righteousness, but who.
Jesus is our righteousness, not "Jesus' righteousness is ours".

the word "imputed" only means to estimate, conclude, esteem, reckon.
Do a strong number search on the word impute(G3049)

philologos wrote:
In other words, we are righteous because we are no longer under Law.
Not at all, we are righteous because we have righteousness imputed to us.

It is not as God Gave us righteousness like a commodity.
It is not "giving us righteousness but saying that we are.
The way Jesus is our righteous is that we are in Him, He is our representative.

J
JaySaved

Jesus is our righteousness, not "Jesus' righteousness is ours".

Please explain the difference.

S
sermonindex


JaySaved wrote:
Jesus is our righteousness, not "Jesus' righteousness is ours".

Please explain the difference.

I have another question. Where in the bible does it say we have the righteousness of JESUS? :-(

K
KingJimmy

2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When God declared us righteous, we were actually made what God declared us to be.

S
sermonindex

2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be on our behalf, so that we might become the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD in Him.

It's the righteousness of the FATHER, not the righteosness of Jesus.

C
Christinyou

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]:)

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Phl 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The Righteousness of God is Christ. The Righteousness of Christ is God. You cannot have one without the other.

In Christ: Phillip

P
philologos

Logic on 2007/5/25 0:33:56
It is not "whose" righteousness, but who.
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (Philippians 3:9 KJVS) This is plainly not Paul's righteousness so, I repeat, whose righteousness is it? It is God's righteousness in Christ.


the word "imputed" only means to estimate, conclude, esteem, reckon.
Do a strong number search on the word impute(G3049)

I am fairly familiar with the meaning of 'imputed'. What do you mean 'only means'. We are not talking in this thread about 'imparted righteousness' that is a separate issue. We are talking about the reality in which God 'credits' another's righteousness to my account. If I credited your account with a few thousand dollars I doubt that you would be saying it 'only means'...'to estimate, conclude, esteem, reckon'. This is not a legal fiction or a game, God actually credits our account with righteousness; whose?


It is not as God Gave us righteousness like a commodity.
It is not "giving us righteousness but saying that we are.
The way Jesus is our righteous is that we are in Him, He is our representative.

I am not talking about 'imparted righteousness' but 'imputed righteousness' just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom [b]God imputes righteousness[/b] apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” (Romans 4:6-8 NKJV)This is a useful section because it shows us clearly how the idea of imputation works. God does not 'impute/reckon' this man's sin to his account. His sins do not appear on his bank statement. However, he finds that 'righteousness' has been credited to his account; where did it come from, whose righteousness has been credited to his account?

The first of these verses says very plainly that 'God imputes righteousness'. I repeat, whose righteousness has found its way into my account?

L
lightwalker

This is very good, [I mean the article on moral knowledge] can you tell me who wrote it? I think that there is much truth in this, truth that the present doctrines make void, with the teaching of "Imputed righteousness" Nothing was ever imputed without the persons obedience going before...However the word tells us that unless you are born from above you cannot see the kingdom of heaven, for it is the spirit of God who reveals to us all things...Jesus is the power of God for righteousness to all who believe, not a covering so that we can remain in sin... but the power to die to all things that are not pleasing to God.. His life being ours, and the very spirit of God showing us the way to walk... once we see we are responsible to DO....

P
philologos

lightwalker on 2007/5/25 9:29:42
Nothing was ever imputed without the persons obedience going before...
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on [b]him that justifieth the ungodly[/b], his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5 KJVS)You have reversed the divine Morder. Obedience is the consequence of faith not its precondition. [b]By faith[/b] Abraham [b]obeyed[/b] when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. (Hebrews 11:8 NKJV)...and justification by faith means that 'God justifies the ungodly'. By your order God would only be able to justify the obedient/righteous.

God does insist upon 'righteousness' but not a a precondition to 'imputed righteousness'; the only precondition to 'imputed righteousness' is faith.

L
lightwalker

There is nothing imputed without obedience. Faith and works cannot be divided. Justice and mercy cannot be divided. God cannot be divided. The greatest commandment is this:Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: Only after this are the other commands given, the ones that fulfill the law. The ones that refer to love being the fulfillment of the law.
Because I am one you shall be, now in this verse it is not referring to the trinity, but to the character of God. Otherwise why is this verse saying and thou shalt? It is referring back to the Onenss of the Lord.

It says:Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And thou shalt..

I cannot divide faith from what I do, I believe therefore He is my Lord, I give Him my life. He knows what is best, my only faith is to do what He says. He has the right to command me, to tell me what is best, He has the right to my obedience. To say you follow Christ in any other way is to decieve yourself. He is my Lord and Master.

To believe in God is to believe that He is right and that I am wrong, to repent everywhere I am shown to be wrong, It is a heart change, I take His word over my sin, choose death rather then my own way, will His will, by the power of a new life given to me.
So to me there is no difference at all between the command and the obedience, they are one as He is one, Otherwise I would have no faith at all.. Faith is Obedience.

As for "Doctrines of men" I will have none of them. They are wrong and all come from the desire to be excused from sin. Instead of putting to death the sin nature by the spirit of God they leave room for the flesh...

P
philologos

There is nothing imputed without obedience. Faith and works cannot be divided.

You are wrong and you are right.And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6 KJVS)This is why you are wrong. This is the defining moment of justifying faith. If you add anything to this you have created another law. It is placed here in the scripture to show where we must begin in our understanding of 'faith'. It is the first declared instance of the operation of 'faith' in the Bible. As a result of this naked faith God was able to declare Abraham 'justified'.

You are right in that faith can never exist without its expression. But you must distinguish between the faith that justifies without works and the works which justify faith. Our works show the authenticity of our faith, however, they are not faith but the consequence of it.

You are wrong when you say that "There is nothing imputed without obedience." This is a plain denial of the clear statement of scripture that God justifies the ungodly. The ungodly will not remain 'ungodly" if they have known genuine faith, but salvation is not through "faith and obedience" but "by grace and through faith". You are confusing the results with the thing; confusing the root with the fruit. This was the folly of Finney who created a kind of justification by sanctification.

You are right when you say "I cannot divide faith from what I do" but you must DISTINGUISH faith from what you do otherwise you create a salvation that is by "faith + x" and any formulation which adds any other factor to faith has created salvation by works; just another form of law.


As for "Doctrines of men" I will have none of them. They are wrong and all come from the desire to be excused from sin. Instead of putting to death the sin nature by the spirit of God they leave room for the flesh...

I presume by the "doctrines of men" you mean any teaching that is not in full agreement with your own?

J
JaySaved

Very well said Ron. I appreciate your clarity of the truth and graciousness in your response.

S
sermonindex

Ron,

There is nothing imputed without obedience.

Was not faith the obedience that God required?

Abraham chose to believe God. He could have chosen not to believe.

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""this:Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: Only after this are the other commands given, the ones that fulfill the law. The ones that refer to love being the fulfillment of the law.
Because I am one you shall be, now in this verse it is not referring to the trinity, but to the character of God. Otherwise why is this verse saying and thou shalt? It is referring back to the Onenss of the Lord.
It says:Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And thou shalt..
I cannot divide faith from what I do, I believe therefore He is my Lord, I give Him my life. He knows what is best, my only faith is to do what He says. He has the right to command me, to tell me what is best, He has the right to my obedience. To say you follow Christ in any other way is to decieve yourself. He is my Lord and Master."""


For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Who is the Word of God? It is Christ Jesus the Lord, He is God. Who is the Father? He is God.
Who is the Holy Spirit Teacher/Comforter? He is God. In the Trinity They are One God. In the work done in man they are Three in One, and do the work of a New Life by the Christ in us. In the work in man God the Father is the Seed Planter and His Good Seed (Christ) brings forth good fruit in us. The Holy Spirit is the Revealer of the Christ that is in us, born again of Incorruptable Seed.

The Born Again have the Faith of God in Christ Jesus and that governs what we do, not our pre-salvation faith, it could only do what Abraham did. This new Faith when it has come brings us into a right relationship with God the Father by the Faith of the Son of God that is birthed in us.

Galatians 3:23-25 But before faith (Christ)came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith (Christ) which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by (Christ's) faith. But after that faith (Christ) is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Law)

Galatians 2:14-19 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

We are dead to sin by the Christ that is in us. We were crucified with Christ and we should see ourselves on the Cross with Christ, dead as He is to sin, so it is Christ in us that is our righteousness and faith and works unto justification by the Faith of Jesus Christ in us.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

No law can justify any man, moral or otherwise, the Ten Commandment will not justify any man, they will only convict him. Christ is the only justifier unto salvation and working out our salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The word "righteousness", is the word Justification. Strong's Greek Dictionary
1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

No work of man can justify him, only Christ can justify a man because he believes in the Son of God, then the Faith of the Son of God takes over and we become the righteous of God in Him.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Before ordained: Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

His Good pleasure and His will, not ours.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

JaySaved wrote:
Jesus is our righteousness, not "Jesus' righteousness is ours".
Please explain the difference.
The difrence in that if Jesus' righteousness is ours, then righteousness is something tangable that can be given, However, as it is that "Jesus is our righteousness", would be a position. We are "in Him"
philologos
This is plainly not Paul's righteousness so, I repeat, whose righteousness is it? It is God's righteousness in Christ.
I would say it is Christs or even "righteousness of the law" since we keep the spirit of the law.
But righteousness is not a thing, but a standing or a position even a quality or state or condition or virtue.

philologos
God actually credits our account with righteousness; whose?
I don't think righteousness is "given" in that we can say it is some body's. It is not like God has extra righteousness that He gives, He just makes us righteous by virtue of who we become.

It ends up you be our own since it is imputed to us righteousness.

Just as I would say, "I credit philologos as a nice guy.
or, in other words:
"I imut niceness to philologos"
"I account philologos to be nice"

Am I giveing you some of my niseness to you?
no, I just make you nice in my judgment.
Therefore, we just become righteous.

Or, I just don't understand the word Impute.

C
Christinyou

"""It ends up you be our own since it is imputed to us righteousness.

Just as I would say, "I credit philologos as a nice guy.
or, in other words:
"I imut niceness to philologos"
"I account philologos to be nice" """


Lets start from the opposite. Romans 4:8-9 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Reckoned is the same word as imputed. Strong's Greek Dictionary
3049. logizomai
Search for G3049 in KJVSL
logizomai logizomai log-id'-zom-ahee
middle voice from 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):--conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).
Impute: Same; Strong's Greek Dictionary
3049. logizomai
Search for G3049 in KJVSL
logizomai logizomai log-id'-zom-ahee
middle voice from 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):--conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on)

God is the one that is doing the imputing of sin and also God is the one that is imputing faith for righteousness sake. He is not imputing faith because of us, He is imputing faith because of the Faith of Christ. When that faith came by the birthing of Christ in us, we now have imputed faith by God. He makes the faith of Christ our faith. When God looks at us He sees Jesus Christ and we are imputed faith unto righteousness sake by His Grace. So both Faith and Righteousness are by God's Grace because of Christ that is Born Again in us by the Spirit and Water, That is the Spirit of Christ and the Living Water of Christ's Righteousness flowing from our inward parts, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Imputation is what God does when He see's a Born Again Christian, that is a person with Christ in him and him in Christ, how else could we be righteous?

In Christ and righteous by imputation of faith and righteousness that is Christ: Phillip


1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

S
sermonindex

Again I ask you to read the Synod of Dordt, or the Council of Orange, and look at what was decided by men who were very godly men.

I just wanted to comment on the Synod of Dort.

It consisted of about 133 Calvinistic Ministers from all over Europe, and consisted of only about 6 (or so) Arminians.

But the Arminians were in prison as enemies of the state (because Calvin believed in a Theocracy) and were not permitted either a vote nor a say in the whole counsel.

So the Synod of Dort debated Calvinism verses Arminianism. But the SYnod of Dort was 133 Calvinists. And the Arminians were not allowed a vote nor a say. So it is no wonder what the councel concluded.

Just like the trial of Christ, the Synod of Dort was a complete mockery of a councel.

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
God is the one that is doing the imputing of sin and also God is the one that is imputing faith for righteousness sake.
Two mistakes here.

[b]1.[/b] In that verse you quoted of Romans 4:8 It is our own sin the that the Lord will not impute a charge against.

[b]2.[/b] You swiched it around because of your erroneous and specious view of faith.

It is not: imputing faith for righteousness sake, But, it is imputing righteousness for our faith.

There is no scriptural basis for imputed faith.

C
Christinyou

God's Laws are perfect, man is impossible.

Galatians 2:16-18 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Who's faith are we justified by?

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Who makes us righteous? Faith must come first or the Holy Spirit cannot teach us righteousness Is in Christ.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hbr 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Hbr 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen

Faith must come first and the Faith must be the Faith of the Son of God for us to see the things of the Kingdom.


In Christ: Phillip

K
KingJimmy


There is no scriptural basis for imputed faith.

Faith cannot be "imputed." The idea of "imputed" is a judicial thing which has to do with declaring what an individual is or isn't. Far from being "imputed," according to Romans 10, faith is "imparted" in the hearer through God's declared word. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. For outside of hearing that proclaimed word, faith is impossible. For the proclaimed word contains the content of what is to be believed, and the supernatural ability to believe it.

C
Christinyou

Who reckoned faith to Abraham? Reckoned is imputed, same word.

And who is the Word of God? 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of God .

10:17 is the written word sent out for the whole world.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again , not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible , by the word of God , which liveth and abideth for ever .

This is the Word Himself which is the born again experience not of corruptible Seed or corruptible faith of man but the Whole bucket of Grace, which is all the attributes of Christ Himself.

1 Peter 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

It is hard for man to give up all that he is, for that is all he has ever known, by the Satan that is in him, Paul said even with all he knew all he wanted was to know Him. All that I am was crucified on the Cross with Jesus, all that I am now is Christ, including His Faith.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is the Word of salvation; John 1:14-16 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

The whole bucket of Grace is Christ Jesus and all that He is in us.

In Christ: Phillip

R
roaringlamb

But the Arminians were in prison as enemies of the state (because Calvin believed in a Theocracy) and were not permitted either a vote nor a say in the whole counsel.

Jesse, I do not know where you get your information, but John Calvin had been dead for awhile before the Synod of Dordt. He passed away in 1564 and the Synod was held from 1618-1619. Hard to imagine how he could have had any sway over this. Also in light of the fact that when he was alive he was mainly in Geneva, Switzerland, and not in Dordrecht, Holland.

Also your point about them not having a say is wrong. True they were in the minority, but not because of imprisonment, but rather because their beliefs were borderline heresy.


So the Synod of Dort debated Calvinism verses Arminianism. But the Synod of Dort was 133 Calvinists. And the Arminians were not allowed a vote nor a say. So it is no wonder what the councel concluded.

Again, I do not where you got this, as the Synod was called to debate The Remonstrants or the Arminians views which they were demanding be made official Church teaching. The Arminians were the ones subverting the Church of Holland with their Doctrine, and it was given a trial against the Scriptures for a period of around 9 months. it was not a hasty or rash decision to declare it wrong. The Arminians brought forth five points on which the Church was in error(or so said they), thus in reply, the five points of Calvinism were written.

Where you got those numbers I can only guess, I noticed wikipedia has them, but I hope a theologian as yourself would not use such inconclusive means to try to discredit this. Why not read the points debated, and read the rejections to see what was said? If you are completely sure of the Arminian way, then you have nothing to fear as it will only strengthen your resolve.

One of the key reasons that the Arminians were ousted from Churches afterwards was that it was found that their teaching placed peoople on a very dangerous road back to the Roman Catholic form of works righteousnes. Of course the Reformation had undone that idea, and satan looked to recapture those whom were set free, and what better way than to come in the "skin" of a Protestant, while injecting the flock with Roman teachings. Now some 500 years later it has come full circle and because that slippery road was not avoided, many Protestants believe Roman Catholics to be of us, and some Protestants teach Roman Catholic doctrine in teaching a works based righteousness. Perhaps you have heard one of its many forms, Christ only died for your past sins, but you must maintain your conversion and justification afterwards, and if there is one sin unrepented of, you will go to hell. Of course this would follow if I gave birth to myself(which I have yet to see anyone do). But not if God and God alone granted a new heart that would believe, thus fulfilling what He had promised in the Old Testament. Salvation is of the Lord.

Also this gives God the right to say that those whom He predestined He called, those whom He called He justified, and that those whom He justified, He glorified (Romans 8:30) Becase He is the one that starts the work, not man.


K
KingJimmy


Who reckoned faith to Abraham? Reckoned is imputed, same word.

You are perhaps thinking of Romans 4:9? "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness."

This passage isn't saying faith was imputed to Abraham, rather it is saying righteousness was counted to Abraham on the basis of his faith. And this is clear when compared to the context of Genesis 15:6, where God had just given Abraham His great promise, for which Abraham believed that promise God had made. And on the basis of taking God at His word, righteousness was counted unto him.

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
Who's faith are we justified by?

[b]James 2:24[/b] [color=990000]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.[/color]
If it is by our works of faith we are justified by, than it is our faith that the works are from.

Befor one is saved, one recieves the fact that he is guilty, and with his own mind he processes the truths to formulate them into a belief.

He then, must decide to obey what he knows and act with own obediance to ask for the forgiveness offered.
Once one is saved, he must continue to processes the truths of Scripture with his own mind to formulate them into a stronger and more founded belief in which he must continue to choose for himself to obey in acting upon his own conviction.

[b]Heb 11:1[/b] [color=990000]Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.[/color]

It is we who hope, therefore, it must be our own obediance that gives the evidence.

[b]Rom 8:24[/b] [color=990000]for we were saved by hope, but hope being seen is not hope; because if one sees, why does he also hope?[/color]

L
Logic


Christinyou wrote:
Who reckoned faith to Abraham? Reckoned is imputed, same word.
No one reckoned faith to Abraham, quit twisting the scriptures, it sickens me.

C
Christinyou

Romans 4:4-25 Now to him that worketh is the reward not ((((reckoned (imputed, added)))) of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, ((((his faith is counted (reckoned or imputed ,added) for righteousness.)))) ((((Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.)))) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. ((((How was it then reckoned? (imputed)added)))) when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; ((((that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:)))) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, ((((but through the righteousness of faith.)))) (faith must come first)added. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, ((((I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.)))) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. ((((And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.)))) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was ((((imputed)))) to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be ((((imputed,)))) if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

(added) by me for clarification of imputation of faith unto righteousness sake and justification in Christ and by Christ from the Father.

Counted, reckoned, imputed. All the same word.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3049. logizomai
Search for G3049 in KJVSL
logizomai logizomai log-id'-zom-ahee
middle voice from 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):--conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

Prove it wrong not just say so.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
Prove it wrong not just say so.
You have not yet proved it correct yet accepted by your own bias and reading [b]into[/b] the text, therfore, the burden of proof is still on your shoulders.

C
Christinyou


Christinyou wrote:
Who reckoned faith to Abraham? Reckoned is imputed, same word.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
No one reckoned faith to Abraham, quit twisting the scriptures, it sickens me.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Again who reckoned this faith of Abraham for righteousness, not us.

Romans 4:17-22 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He (God) had promised, He (God) was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness.

He had to have strong: Strong's Greek Dictionary
1743. endunamoo strong
Search for G1743 in KJVSL
endunamow endunamoo en-doo-nam-o'-o
from 1722 and 1412; to empower:--enable, (increase in) strength(-en), be (make) strong.

Not Abraham's strength but God's.
Faith; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

God persuaded Abraham to believe. "And being fully persuaded that, what He (God) had promised, He (God) was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness."

God made Abraham's faith capable of believing what He said was true. Thus The faith of God given to Abraham that he might believe unto imputed righteousness.

Just like Christ in the New believer by the Holy Spirit Teacher of the Faith of Jesus Christ and being fully persuaded believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God, by Grace through Faith and that not of yourselves, but the gift of God.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Who's Faith?

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Who's Grace through Faith?

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Very good Christinyou, it's HIS faith. When Jesus saved himself with his faith he saved us by his faith also. It's all Jesus. No flesh is justified by the deeds of the law, not even Jesus,(although he did fulfill the law) It was his faith that saved us.

L
Logic

chiefosiners wrote:
Very good Christinyou, it's HIS faith. When Jesus saved himself with his faith he saved us by his faith also. It's all Jesus. No flesh is justified by the deeds of the law, not even Jesus,(although he did fulfill the law) It was his faith that saved us.
That is the most rediculous thing I've heard.
Jesus didn't save himself.
Jesus didn't have faith, He had impirical knowlege.
Knowone can give anyone beliefe(faith), one must come to it one their own.
[b]If[/b] Jesus had faith, His faith couldn't save us as much as my faith couldn't saving my children.

It isn't His faith even now that I have Christ with in me.

It's not [b]all[/b] Jesus and none of us.
He requirs from us with out his doing on a [b]few[/b] things, otherwise there wouldn't be obedience.
God requires us to acknowlege and believe the truth.
God requires us to obey the truth after it is presented to us.
These to requiremnets are what faith is and it must be from ourselvs.

This is an erroneous humility, that comes from the wrong idea that if a person believes if he has any form of self accomplishment that it is bad.
One thinks, if it comes from man it must be corupt, and that comes from the false idea that man is totaly impotent and totaly depraved.

I agree that man is depraved, but not totaly.

R
roaringlamb

I agree that man is depraved, but not totaly.

Can you show from Scripture that he is not? or from practical life experience?

Man is at enmity with God from the moment he is born, and God is at enmity with man. You incorrectly assume that man is "nuetral" and could be swayed either way, toward God or toward satan. Yet not even Adam was nuetral in his desire, for his heart was toward God when he was created, but forfeited that fellowship and standing when he sinned and thus gave allegience to satan. Adam produced offspring just like himself, and since the human race has neve been re-made, we all spring forth from Adam and are pro-satan until God intervenes and changes our desires so we will believe, not against our will, but rather completely in agreement with the new will in our hearts.

These to requiremnets are what faith is and it must be from ourselvs.

Again, they cannot come from ourselves as tfaith is the gift of God. The regenrated heart produces faith, not unregenrated heart. The regenrated produces faith that works, not faith the does not. Thus there is complete confidence and great assurance thet he which has begun a good work will complete it, and that he of course is not referring to man.

The Scriptures also tell us plainly that Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith is impossiblee without a work of the Spirit within the heart of man. Man may intellectually believe, but that is not saving faith as it is void of the Spiritual work producing faith that works.

God requires men to believe, but that does not mean man can.

The following is taken from a presentation by Dr Curt Daniel
The message may be downloaded here
[url=http://faithbibleonline.net/MP3s/The%20History%20and%20Theology%20of%20Calvinism/39%20-%20Total%20Depravity%20and%20Human%20Responsibility.mp3]Total Depravity And Human Responsibility[/url]

[i]6. Inability Does Not Negate Responsibility.

A. Now we come to another objection, namely the theological formula, “Responsibility implies ability.” This means that inability negates responsibility. Pelagius argued like this in Augustine’s day: “If I ought, I can.” Oughtness implies ability. This is perhaps the most basic of all objections to Total Depravity.
B. The Calvinist response is simple, direct and Biblical: “Responsibility does not imply ability. Inability does not negate responsibility.” Moral obligation remains even after moral ability has departed. Man has fallen into the snare of the Devil (2 Tim. 2:26) and he cannot extricate himself. That snare has to do with moral inability. Man’s will is enslaved to Satan. That means that he cannot want to be free from sin. He got himself into moral inability, but he cannot get himself out. Sin has a ratchet effect upon Man - he cannot go back once he has gone forward. He’s trapped. Unless God intervenes, he’s doomed.
C. Let’s look at it under another metaphor, this one a financial one. A.W. Pink gives the Reformed explanation: “Inability to pay a debt does not excuse a debtor who has recklessly squandered his estate; nor does drunkenness excuse the mad or violent actions of a drunkard, but rather aggravates his crime. God has not lost his right to command, even though man through his wickedness has lost his power to obey.” (Cf. Matt. 18:34)
D. God lent us the ability to obey. But we squandered it on sin. And we still owe God what he lent us. God has no Chapter 11 bankruptcy. He does not excuse us because we cannot pay Him back. Remember, all this has to do with the will to obey. Man is more than a borrower who has reneged on his obligations; he is an embezzler and a thief.
E. The Heidelberg Catechism addresses the point like this: “QJ3.. Is not God unjustin requiring of Man in His Law what he cannot do? A. No, for God so created Man that he could do it. But Man, upon the instigation of the Devil, by deliberate disobedience, has cheated himself and all his descendants out of these gifts.” Louis Berkhof adds: “We should not forget that the inability under consideration is self-imposed, has a moral origin, and is not due to any limitation which God has put upon man’s being.”
F. The Bible-believing Calvinist, then, has a ready answer to the Arminian formula, “Responsibility implies ability.” Our answer: “Who says? Not God, not the Bible.”

7. Inability Compounds Culpability.

A. Again, we hear the objection, “Diminished ability lessens culpability. Man is culpable, therefore Man is able.” Our reply is the exact opposite, namely, inability compounds culpability. In 2 Pet. 2:14, Peter rebukes certain sinners as “having eyes full of adultery and that never cease from sin,” Does the fact that they never cease from sin because they are slaves of sin (-vs. 19) let them off the hook? Quite the contrary!
B. Imagine if you will a murderer pleading innocent because “I couldn’t help it. It is my nature to murder.” That makes him all the more dangerous and guilty, and all the more deserving of punishment. Then there is the man who commits a crime while drunk, such as drunk driving. Should this excuse him? No, for he voluntarily chose to get drunk. Once drunk, he was cruising for an accident. There’s an old Roman legal maxim: “Let him who commits a crime while drunk be punished while sober.” Drunkenness is no excuse, nor “temporary insanity.” By the same standard, Man is willfully drunk on sin. This does not excuse him. Rather, it compounds his guilt.
C. Hence, the great doctrine of Total Depravity and Inability leaves fallen Man without any hope whatsoever in himself. Those who weaken this doctrine give Man a little ability and hope, thereby guaranteeing that he will never be healed. But there’s more. It is usually at this juncture in the discussion that our critics begin to react emotionally. Some of them, of course, have not been able to follow our arguments, so they only react with sheer hysteria. Others, blinded by worldly thinking, react with intense hostility. Still others get our point, and its sharpness pricks their consciences. They cry, “I wish I had never even raised the objection in the first place!” That is precisely what we are aiming at - destroying ungodly arguments and exposing the sinfulness in the hearts of those who make these objections.[/i]

S
sermonindex

Thank you for the bashing. I will explain later, but right now I don't have the time.

Heres a preview.

Jesus faith saved himself, which in turn saved us all. The righteousness of God is imputed unto us through Jesus by our faith in him.

It's really simple, but I'll use scripture later to support my stance.

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
I agree that man is depraved, but not totally.
Can you show from Scripture that he is [b]totally[/b] depraved.

Can you show from Scripture that he is not? or from practical life experience?

I can show that man is depraved, but not [b]totally[/b] depraved.

[b]Rom 7:22[/b] [color=990000]For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;[/color]
In other words:
I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.

If his "inward man" is able to delight in the Law of God, it is not [b]totally[/b] depraved.

This next verse agrees:
[b]Rom 7:25[/b] [color=990000]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.[/color]
In other words:
With the mind, which is my actual being, I truly agree to the the righteous requirements of the Law of God, and with the flesh, I serve the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is death

His mind is not depraved so much that it can not serve the the Law of God. Therefore, he is not totally depraved.

roaringlamb wrote:
Man is at enmity with God from the moment he is born,
Wrong, "the carnal mind is enmity against"
Not man. where does it say that man is "the moment he is born" knowing that a infant out of the womb has no concept of God to be at enmity with.

You incorrectly assume that man is "neutral" and could be swayed either way, toward God or toward Satan.
I don't say that he is neutral.
However, in reality, man is actually either swayed toward God or toward himself, not Satan
it is not even heaven or hell, but heaven or this world.

roaringlamb wrote:
Adam produced offspring just like himself, and since the human race has never been re-made, we all spring forth from Adam and are pro-satan until God intervenes and changes our desires
I agree to a point accept the mistake that man is pro-satan. Man is Pro-self or pro-flesh.

roaringlamb wrote:
These to requirements are what faith is and it must be from ourselves.
Again, they cannot come from ourselves as faith is the gift of God.
That is where you are wrong. I very meticulously explain how the process goes.

How and why must faith in God be form Him when faith in anything els not be?
There is not two kinds of faith.

roaringlamb wrote:
The Scriptures also tell us plainly that Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Faith is impossible without a work of the Spirit within the heart of man.

"The author and finisher of our faith" simply means that He is the One that First [b]lead us[/b] to believe. Not put the belief in us, not gave us the belief, not made us to believe. We came to believe by Him reveling Himself to us.


And the finisher of our faith is our [b]Hope[/b]" coming to reality.
And the evidence of our faith become fully seen.(Hebrews 11:1)

roaringlamb wrote:
Man may intellectually believe, but that is not saving faith as it is void of the Spiritual work producing faith that works.

You had better intellectually believe!!! otherwise you are in grave trouble my brother.

roaringlamb wrote:
God requires men to believe, but that does not mean man can.
Yes they can, there is know difference in believing in me whom you have not met put conversate with, and God.

If you can believe the reality of me, you can believe in the reality of God.

If there is a requirement, God gives men the ability. It is unjust to burden one with a requirement in which one is incapable to perform.

S
sermonindex

So how did Jesus save himself?
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify MYSELF, that THEY also might be sanctified through the truth. Who's the they? The disciples, but not just the desciples V.20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for THEM ALSO (us) which SHALL believe on me might be sanctified through the truth. This whole chapter of John is a prayer of faith for himself, the disciples, and the believers.

Now the kicker is this. The righteousness of the Father is given to us through Jesus Christ by His faith.Rom 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is manifested, being witnesses by the law and the prophets. (This is how righteousness has come and it's written in the old testament.) Even the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD(The Fathers Righteousness) which is BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST(Jesus faith) UNTO ALL and UPON ALL THAT BELIEVE(Righteousness imputed to the believer)

L
Logic

chiefosiners wrote:
Even the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD(The Fathers Righteousness) which is [b]BY FAITH [u]OF[/u] JESUS CHRIST(Jesus faith[/b]) UNTO ALL and UPON ALL THAT BELIEVE(Righteousness imputed to the believer)
The preposition is not in the original greek.
I will sak Dr. Kirk R. MacGregor, Assistant Professor of Religious Studies at Radford University about this and get back to you if it is "of" or "in"

S
sermonindex


Logic wrote:
chiefosiners wrote:
Even the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD(The Fathers Righteousness) which is [b]BY FAITH [u]OF[/u] JESUS CHRIST(Jesus faith[/b]) UNTO ALL and UPON ALL THAT BELIEVE(Righteousness imputed to the believer)
The preposition is not in the original greek.
I will sak Dr. Kirk R. MacGregor, Assistant Professor of Religious Studies at Radford University about this and get back to you if it is "of" or "in"
I really don't care what Dr. Doohicky says. There are many other verses where that one came from.

C
Christinyou

Romans 3:22-24 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Even if the prep "of" is not in the original, it makes no difference and makes it even more emphatic about the faith Jesus Christ.

"Even the righteousness of God", of is not in the original either, but it is clear it means, Even the righteousness God. With or without "of" it means the same thing Gods righteousness. The same is "faith of Jesus Christ, without the of, the faith Christ, it means the same, Jesus Christ's faith.

The same for these: Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

These don't have the prep "of".

1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Try these on for size: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons

Who's faith?

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

It is a logical imposability to have anyone elses faith.
No one will be saved with another mans faith.
Your children will not be saved with your faith, how will one be saved with the jesus' faith (it is Him believeing and not you)?
This is logical nonsence, and don't say that it is because it is spiritual.

Here is the problem with Calvinistic theology, God gives the "gift of faith" to only those He chooses, but not all. However, If God wanted all people to be saved(wich he does) why wouldn't He give "His Faith" to all?

If this Calvinistic god is sooo great and if he gives his faith away, he would save all and not damn any. That is if he does give his faith away.

There is no need to damn people if he gives his faith to people to save them.

C
Christinyou

There is one prerequisite to this faith, a person must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Then God must give those to Christ that are His. As God has chosen in Christ those that before the foundation of the world were destined to God's will.

I don't study Calvin, I study the scripture with the Holy Spirit teacher. Most of what I know about Calvin I have heard is from this forum and all negative and the same with Arminius.

Please explain this passage and tell me it is your faith and your will and your power that saves you and you chose to believe in your own mind.

Ephesians 1:4-23 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Who is the head over all things to the Church and filleth all in all, that includes Faith, Hope and Love.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Who is the full Armour of God? It is Christ Jesus the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

God takes the logical things of the world and takes the illogical things and makes them so.
It takes a person, Jesus Christ to be our salvation and our new nature and spirit, salvation is a person and not just logic, do this and don't do that, but believe an you will be saved forever and even that I have given you.

In Christ: Phillip

R
roaringlamb

Here is the problem with Calvinistic theology, God gives the "gift of faith" to only those He chooses, but not all. However, If God wanted all people to be saved(wich he does) why wouldn't He give "His Faith" to all?

And here's the problem with Arminian Theology, if God wanted all people to be saved(which He never said, and you are simply making a Humanistic response to God's sovereignty), then why aren't they. Is God not almighty? or is man's will stronger than God?

God forbid, man is not God, and the sooner we can see that Theology begins with God and His plan, not man and what is good for man the better.

Here's the three possibilites God could have chosen
1)He save noone
2)He save all
3)He save some

Which is Biblical, and not based on human reasoning or unfairness to man.

And again, you suppose that man is nuetral in regards to his will or desires. Man is dead in sins
Eph 2:1 And [b]you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;[/b]
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also [b]we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/b]

You cannot spin this to mean that somehow man has maintained a "spark" of life in him. Not enough? Here's another
Col 2:13 And [b]you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;[/b]

Who gave life to the dead one? Did man ressurect himself? Not even Lazarus did that, but he came to life as he was called out of the grave.

Prior to Adam's fall, he was for God and desired to do His will, but when he fell, he went pro satan then he fathered children in his likeness(i.e. fallen) and they fathered children in their likeness(i.e. fallen), then their children fathered children in their likeness(I think you get the picture:-) )

Thus all mankind is pro satan and will do his deeds as they are his servants until set free. Look at what Paul says to Timothy
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; [b]if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;[/b]
Who gave the repentance?

2Ti 2:26 And [b]that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. [/b]
Do you see it yet? Man is not good at all, he is dead. Now you say why would God tell us to preach to those who will not respond, or are dead.

Ask Ezekiel
Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Ezekiel 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Ezekiel 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

Looks like God is commanding Ezekiel to preach to dead bones, but then life comes into them. Where does it come from? I suppose the Arminian would say, "well there was a tiny fiber of life in each of those skeletons that stood, or maybe they weren't really dead and the Scriptures are in error."

No, here's how
Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, [b]I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:[/b]
Ezekiel 37:6 And [b]I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. [/b]

Your serve ;-)

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:

And here's the problem with Arminian Theology, if God wanted all people to be saved([b]which He never said[/b],

I think you forgot to read:
[b]2Peter 3:9b[/b] [color=990000]...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/color]
Knowing that Christians have already "come to repentance", therefore it is literaly "All" & of the word and "any" not to perish.

I have a question that I need you to answer; yes or no:
Did you make a conscious decision for Christ?

R
roaringlamb

2Peter 3:9b ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You are horribly using this verse to hold up your own ideology, but this verse is written to Christians, and speaks of all the elect being brought to repentance. The word "all" here refers to all of some.

Your misinterpretation of this verse destroys God's power over His creation as He would have men saved, but poor old God is stymied by His creature. God's purposes are never thwarted but you say they can be? How does this fit with this verse
Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, [b]Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:[/b]

There are many many more that would speak on the contrary to your view.

Also, what do you say when you come across a verse like this
Joshua 11:20 For [b]it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.[/b]

God does no disservice to the liberty(free choices man makes while bound by a sinful heart) while accomplishing His purpose. Look at this verses
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 [b]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: [/b]

Do you see the foreordination of God working with the responsibility of man? The Jews and Romans did not have guns put to their heads so they would do this, but because it was predestined to happen, it happened and God simply used the wicked desires for His purpose and pleasure. Thus He created these men knowing all along the end they would come to, but He creates vessels unto dishonour, and He is fully good and just in so doing.

Here is the second verse(s)
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, [b]both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.[/b]

Again we see human response to what God has predetermined. Of course Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so when did God predetermine or predestine these events and these people to do these events? God has no plan B, thus all the pieces are in place and all is going accordingly to His sovereign will.

There of course will be those who cry, "unfair, this makes man like a puppet, this makes man little in all that goes on in the world!" To which I would respond, "exactly."

I have a question that I need you to answer; yes or no:
Did you make a conscious decision for Christ?

I know what answer you want, but I will answer according biblical truth. Yes, but(I know you don't want that "but" in there, so you could say, "aha, you chose") I chose because I was chosen. Like John says, "we love Him because He first loved us. "Jesus even plainly says, "you did not chose me, but I chose you."

So, I chose because my heart had been changed to choose, and I could do no other. Oh sure there had been much warring against the truth for many years, but effectual grace had finally gained its prize!

See you believe that you are born again by faith, but the Scriptural view and what Jesus was getting at with Nicodemas was that a man must be born again to believe.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [b]Except a man be born again(lit:from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God. [/b]

The word for see means to see, or discern etc. Do you see how Jesus was saying, " you cannot believe unless you are birthed from above"?

Consider these verses
1John 5:1 [b]Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:[/b] and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: [b]whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.[/b]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: [b]and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.[/b]

So long story short, I made a concious profession because I had been given a new heart and will to believe.

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
I have a question that I need you to answer; yes or no:
Did you make a conscious decision for Christ?
Yes
you chose, you had an option to reject.


End of discution.

R
roaringlamb

you chose, you had an option to reject.

End of discution.

How is it that out of all the Scripture I gave you, you only look for what you wish to see? Please apply a little "logic" to the situation.

How does a man who is an enemy of God, a slave to sin and satan suddenly "choose" of his own "free will" to become a Christian? Why did Agrippa cry out, "almost thou pesuadest me to be a Christian." What was missing from becoming a Christian, he had the facts presented to him, it no doubt was logical, but he was not converted. Could it be because there was no working of the Spirit to apply these truths to the heart?

Though you argue against this verse, it cleary states what you choose to ignore...
1Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Corinthians 2:14 [b]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned[/b]

The Gospel is a Spiritual thing is it not, and the Spirit must convict of sin, righteousness etc. But a man in his natural unregenrated state will not understand the Gospel, it will be foolishness to him. Is this not what Paul says here
1Corinthians 1:18 For [b]the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;[/b] but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Now look at this passage
1Corinthians 1:27 But [b]God hath chosen[/b] the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and [b]God hath chosen[/b] the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Corinthians 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, [b]hath God chosen[/b], yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Corinthinas 1:30 [b]But of him are ye in Christ Jesus,[/b] who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Now if it was as you put forth, it would say something like this, "but thou hast chosen Him, so that thou mightest glory in thy choice", and then it would say, "but of thyself thou art in him(Christ) whom thou hast made to thyself wisdom, righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."

But the Holy Spirit through Paul is conveying the marvel of sovereign grace so that no flesh may glory in anything save Christ. Thus he concludes this chapter with...
1Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, [b]He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.[/b]

Not, "he that glorieth let him glory in his choice to be in Christ."

May God open these truths to you in grace as He has done for me, and may you be able to taste the banquet that comes from these wonderful timeless truths.

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
You are horribly using this verse to hold up your own ideology, but this verse is written to Christians, and speaks of all the elect being brought to repentance. The word "all" here refers to all of some.
Horribly?!
Is it horrible to say that God wants all to come to repentance?

Is it horrible to say that God doesn't wish any to perish?
The only Alternative is that god wants your Mom or Dad to go to hell.

[b]Titus 2:11[/b] [color=990000]For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,[/color] Suppose this doesn't mean all eather.

How do you get "all of some"?

roaringlamb wrote:
There are many many more that would speak on the contrary to your view....
...Though you argue against this verse, it cleary states what you choose to ignore...
They are not contrary to my view. I can grasp the concept of God and His sovereignty working with free will.

I don't ignore, I just don't explain them to you because you will twist it by your weak view of sovereignty and your errant definition of regeneration.

roaringlamb wrote:
How is it that out of all the Scripture I gave you, you only look for what you wish to see? Please apply a little "logic" to the situation.
Okay, I'l aply your logic to it;s full extent:

What do I tell my neighbor who's husband died?
"god wanted him to go to hell."
"It doesn't matter what you think, because god probly wantsyou to go to hell also, you never know."
"I know one thing, that god surly wanted my grandpa in hell for who knows what reason.
God is not infititly loveing as the Bible says."

"However, if god does choose you, you'd better question his love, because if he won't love your neighbor as he commands you to do, how would you trust him to uphold any other of his commands"

"Furthermore, if He doesn't forgive evreyone as he commands you to do, how do you know that once your up there, he won't bring up your sins again?"

I have heard of a God that does not have any double standards, He has forgiven all, that is why & how He commands you to do the same.
He also loves your neighbor that is why & how He commands you to do the same.

This God I am talking about didn't make hell for people that He predestined to hell before time, He only made it for the devil and his angles.

roaringlamb wrote:
Now if it was as you put forth, it would say something like this, "but thou hast chosen Him, so that thou mightest glory in thy choice",
First of all, you even admitted that you had to choose.
That means you had an opption to reject, otherwise it isn't a choice but a coercion.

2dly, A starving man does not glory in his choice to eat a meal that was given him.

[u]I know for a fact that it is truly humbling to recieve a gift even when I need it. I do not glory in choosing it, I'd rather not choose, but my need compeles me to choose to take it. The choice is not to glory in but to "abase" in.[/u]

roaringlamb wrote:
The Gospel is a Spiritual thing is it not,
No, it is a true story from history.
Gospel = Good News
News = a report of events.

It is knowledge concerning particular facts communicated and then received.

After receiving the news of sin and judgment, it is the news of God's love that move a mna's heart.

roaringlamb wrote:
How does a man who is an enemy of God, a slave to sin and satan suddenly "choose" of his own "free will" to become a Christian? Why did Agrippa cry out, "almost thou pesuadest me to be a Christian." What was missing from becoming a Christian, he had the facts presented to him, it no doubt was logical, but he was not converted. Could it be because there was no working of the Spirit to apply these truths to the heart?
So you make a doctrin from an unknown?
Not wise.

Did not paul have the Holy Spirit? If so, the Holy Spirit was there with King Agrippa.
King Agrippa simply chose not to belive, not because "God hated him" to make him a vessle of wrath.
If God hated King Agrippa, Paul wouldn't have preached to him.

R
roaringlamb

Okay, I'l aply your logic to it;s full extent:

What do I tell my neighbor who's husband died?
"god wanted him to go to hell."
"It doesn't matter what you think, because god probly wantsyou to go to hell also, you never know."
"I know one thing, that god surly wanted my grandpa in hell for who knows what reason.
God is not infititly loveing as the Bible says."

You should lovingly tell this person that God is infinitely merciful and good, and is the only source for strength and hope in this world, and the world to come.

As far as man is concerned, heaven is promised to no man, neither is salvation. Damnation is the inheritance for every man born of flesh this is hard as man seeks to somehow justify the "goodness" of man and the indebtedness that God has toward man to let man into heaven. Man always seeks to make himself better than he is, but the Bible says nothing of this.

It is hard to bear that a person may not be of those that will be in Heaven, but again we cannot judge God by human emotions, and dictate that He must bend to man's will because it's not fair to man.

I have heard of a God that does not have any double standards, He has forgiven all, that is why & how He commands you to do the same.
He also loves your neighbor that is why & how He commands you to do the same.

This God I am talking about didn't make hell for people that He predestined to hell before time, He only made it for the devil and his angles.

Firstly, God has not forgiven all, as if this was the case, all would be saved. Forgiveness is not universal, mercy is as Christ said it rains on the just and the unjust alike. Also obviously God gives oxygen, and life to all men, and this is mercy, but not forgiveness.

God does command us to love our neighbour as ourselves, and because He commands it we must do it. In the same way, He has said to preach the Gospel to all, but He has never said that all would be saved.

The god you are talking about is not the God of Scripture if He has not foreknown those who would go to hell. Do you suppose that if God really wanted none to go to hell that He would have made it so? Why then do people go to hell? Could it be that they are of their father the devil and his deeds they do. Remember once man fell, he willingly gave Satan authority over his will to do the desires of Satan. Thus it is clear that those who will be like satan are given their just punishment.

I do not joy in this at all, but we cannot drag humanistic thinking into this, this is what Scripture teaches. Emotional responses to this do not change the fact that unfortunately many will perish.

Do you not suppose as well that if man could choose, he would simply to save his hide? Wouldn't that be rational and make sense? But when presented with the holiness of God and the justness of His rule over all mankind, the lost will say, "we will not have this man to rule over us!" because they cannot respond apart from the work of the Spirit. This in no way releases them from the debt they owe to God for their sin in the same way the creditor is not unjust to expect payment of debts whether or not they can be paid.

First of all, you even admitted that you had to choose.
That means you had an opption to reject, otherwise it isn't a choice but a coercion.

You twist what I say. I never said, "I chose"
without also saying that the Spirit changed my heart so that is was not coercive at all, but rather the only thing I could do.

No, it is a true story from history.
Gospel = Good News
News = a report of events.

It is knowledge concerning particular facts communicated and then received.

Then why would Paul say that the Gospel he preached was not from man, but rather from the revelation from Christ Himself(Galatians 1)? If it is only facts and news without any power to change a person, then that is not the Gospel of the Scriptures. Paul made sure to say that his Gospel was not in word only, but in the demonstration of the Spirit as well.

If God hated King Agrippa, Paul wouldn't have preached to him.

Not true, nor Biblical. The sounding of the Gospel serves as further validation of the punishment of those who are lost. Think of all the people in Noah's day, when he told them of God's coming judgement, were they somehow taken in a hidden ark, or did they perish? did God know they would perish? then why have Noah warn them? Why have Jeremiah preach to Jerusalem and warn of the coming Babylonian invasion in which many perished, and what do say about this
Joshua 11:20 [b] For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them,[/b] as the LORD commanded Moses.

God has decreed all things in eternity, and now we see things worked in the here and now, but His decrees will stand no matter what man does. This does not release man from his responosibility to repent and seek salvation. As the Puritans used to say, "the same sun that hardens the clay, softens the wax"

C
Christinyou

If you want to really know the word of God, ask and the Holy Spirit will give the answer and what to study to get it.

Titus 2:9-11 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

All men does not mean all mankind, but all kinds of men whether it be slaves, servants, masters, that no matter who you are you can adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. This is not numbers of men but all character of men.

In Christ: Phillip

C
Christinyou

Quote;

""" "I know one thing, that god surly wanted my grandpa in hell for who knows what reason.
God is not infititly loveing as the Bible says." """

That is your opinion not Gods'.

Anybody that looked at the two thieves on the Cross with Jesus would say that both were going to hell, but we know that is not true.

God is the only one that judges in the capacity of salvation and that is His full sovereignty not ours.

John 3:15-21 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Again and again and again and again. Read the Word and Ask for truth. Not what I am saying but what God is saying.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

roaringlamb wrote:
Okay, I'l aply your logic to it;s full extent:
You should lovingly tell this person that God is infinitely merciful and good,
Not acording to your doctrine, He isn't.
since God is infinitely merciful and good, it extends to all mankind.
Your doctrine, God is finitely merciful and not good.

roaringlamb wrote:
Firstly, God has not forgiven all, as if this was the case, all would be saved.
You think this because you do not know what Atonement is.

Atonement is the translated word kaw-far' from Hebrew to English which means “to cover” of the Jewish Fast of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). It incorporates the words reconciliation, propitiation (satisfaction) and forgiveness. The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

God's forgives all so that all may come to Him to be saved.

This is why John says: [b]1Jonn 2:2 [/b][color=990000]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/color]
And paul:
[b]Col 1:20[/b] [color=990000]and through Him making peace by the blood of His cross, to reconcile all to Himself; through Him, whether the things on the earth, or the things in the heavens.[/color]

roaringlamb wrote:
The god you are talking about is not the God of Scripture if He has not foreknown those who would go to hell.
I'm not saying that He doesn't foreknow those who would go to hell.
I am saying that He doesn't put men there, they put themselves there.
He foreknows that they whould not choose.

roaringlamb wrote:
Do you suppose that if God really wanted none to go to hell that He would have made it so?
I suppose That God knew that with free choice, there would be some that would, choose, but HE made a world where the optimum amount would.

roaringlamb wrote:
Could it be that they are of their father the devil and his deeds they do.
No, becaus some have chosen to leave that family of the devil:

[b]2Tim 2:21[/b] [color=990000]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.[/color]
Choice
[b]Col 1:21[/b] [color=990000]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled[/color]

roaringlamb wrote:
You twist what I say. I never said, "I chose" without also saying that the Spirit changed my heart so that is was not coercive at all, but rather the only thing I could do.
The part after your admittance of choice is mute. And you are lying when you say that it was only thing you could do.
true, it was only thing you could moraly do, but [b]you always have an option to leave Christ even now[/b]. He's not holding a spiritual gun to your head saying,, "if you leave, I will throw you in hell."
roaringlamb wrote:
...This does not release man from his responosibility to repent and seek salvation
Your doctrin claims that they can't repent.
Your doctrin has it God's responosibility for them to repent by giving them the ability.

If we didn't incure the debt(Adam did), we are not responosible for it?
in addition to that, there is no responosibility in inability that your doctrin caims on man.

C
Christinyou

roaringlamb wrote:
...This does not release man from his responosibility to repent and seek salvation

Logic wrote:
""""Your doctrin claims that they can't repent.
Your doctrin has it God's responosibility for them to repent by giving them the ability.

If we didn't incure the debt(Adam did), we are not responosible for it?
in addition to that, there is no responosibility in inability that your doctrin caims on man.""""

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

"granted" didōmi
Pronunciation

dē'-dō-mē (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an altern. in most of the tenses)

TDNT Reference
2:166,166
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to give

2) to give something to someone

a) of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage

1) to bestow a gift

b) to grant, give to one asking, let have

c) to supply, furnish, necessary things

d) to give over, deliver

1) to reach out, extend, present

2) of a writing

3) to give over to one's care, intrust, commit

a) something to be administered

b) to give or commit to some one something to be religiously observed

e) to give what is due or obligatory, to pay: wages or reward

f) to furnish, endue

3) to give

a) to cause, profuse, give forth from one's self

1) to give, hand out lots

b) to appoint to an office

c) to cause to come forth, i.e. as the sea, death and Hell are said to give up the dead who have been engulfed or received by them

c) to give one to someone as his own

1) as an object of his saving care

2) to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master

3) to give one to someone to care for his interests

4) to give one to someone to whom he already belonged, to return

4) to grant or permit one

a) to commission


granted: Strong's Greek Dictionary
1325. didomi
Search for G1325 in KJVSL
didwmi didomi did'-o-mee
a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternative in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly, or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection):--adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.

Looks to me like repentance is granted by God.

By Grace through Faith, which the born again have, repentance is granted for forgiveness of sin because of the Advocate we have with the Father Jesus Christ, whose Cross granted forgiveness to all those that believe and are born again. 1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You must walk in the light first before repentance and confession does anything.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Logic

Christinyou wrote:
""" "I know one thing, that god surly wanted my grandpa in hell for who knows what reason. God is not infititly loveing as the Bible says." """
That is your opinion not Gods'.
I was not stating my view here, but taking the calvinistic god to it's logical conclusion.

[b]Act 11:18[/b] [color=990000]When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.[/color]

I agree that faith and repentanc is a gift as far as life and your very own breath is a gift of God.

All men have the gift of life and breath from the start.
So it is with faith and repentance.

For God to demand faith and repentance to ones who do not have it is like a tyrant demanding an armless & legless man to get dressed while he has no cloths to dress with and conemn him for not complying with his demands.

All men are able to repent but only refuse, all men are able to have faith but only refuse.
Not because God did not give to them, not because of "[b]total[/b] depravity".

You are despicable, you may know the Scriptures but it is evident that you do not know the Author very well.
You make Him into a tyrant with double standards, who does not conform to reality with his demands he burdens creation with.

You make an all, infinite loveing God into a finite god who picks and chooses who he will give this repentance and special kind of faith to.

You will not understand Atonement and regeneration and build a doctrin on your ignorance.

You have no evangelistic quality to your religion.

I am through.

R
roaringlamb

God's forgives all so that all may come to Him to be saved.
This is why John says: 1Jonn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John is pointing out to the Jews he is addressing that Christ is the propitiation for all kinds of men, and not only the Jews as was the common thought amongst them at this time. It is because of this thought we see Peter debating with the Lord about going to Gentiles as the Rabbis of these times would say things like, " better an unsaved Jew than a Gentile."

We see in this verse that "world" does not mean all mankind as it logically cannot
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

We can logically deduce that Luke is saying that a decree went out to all the Roman world as the said decree did not go into America, or Mexico, or China.

And paul:
Col 1:20 and through Him making peace by the blood of His cross, to reconcile all to Himself; through Him, whether the things on the earth, or the things in the heavens.

This has no bearing for unsaved people as it is written to the Church of Colossae, or the Believers, and not to unsaved people. Once again you use a text written to Christians and try to apply it to the unsaved, but that is not proper exegesis or application. God has reconciled us(the Church) through the blood of Christ's cross, but not the world.

I'm not saying that He doesn't foreknow those who would go to hell
I am saying that He doesn't put men there, they put themselves there.
He foreknows that they whould not choose.

Consider what you have said in light of this Scripture
Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: [b]Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.[/b]

Who put them in hell? It says nothing about themselves putting themselves there.

J
JaySaved

roaringlamb, well said.

Also, concerning the phrase 'all men':

Matthew 10:22; Mark 13:13; Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Every single person in the world will hate the disciples and Christians? Even other Christians? Certainly not.

Mark 1:37
And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

Every single person in the world was seeking Christ?

Mark 5:20
And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

Every single person in the world marveled after Jesus? Even those who lived in Mexico?

Mark 11:32
But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.

Every single person in the world counted John to be a prophet?

Luke 3:15
And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

Every single person in the world mused in their hearts?

Acts 2:45
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

The Disciples gave their possessions to every single person in the world?

2 Corinthians 3:2
Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

Every single person in the world knows and has read Paul’s epistles?

3 John 1:12
Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.

Every single person in the world has a good report of Demetrius?

My point is this. We must be very careful to gage the context of the sentence before we assume that ‘all men’ refers to every single person in the world. It is true that in certain verses ‘all men’ refers to every single person, but it is also true that all men may refer to only those who are in a local vicinity, those who are Christians, those who are Gentiles, types of people, etc. ‘all men’ and ‘world’ are two examples of where careful exegesis is needed.

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