Works'

Brothers and Sisters,

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 10:37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:8-12
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. [9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? [10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. [12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

In Matt. 16:23 Jesus says when He returns He will reward every man according to His works.
In John 14:12 He proclaims the kind of works the believer is to do.

We are told by Jesus in:
John 10:37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

In light of the teachings of Jesus on works confirming one being in Him can we expect men to believe the words we speak if we cannot say as Jesus said; “believe me for the very works sake”?

Where are these all important works that Jesus says we shall do?
John 14:12 ] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Mark 16:20
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

1 Cor. 2:4-5
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

In there something missing in how we perceive
believe?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I've been thinking about the miraculous lately. Especially in light of this passage...
And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, [b]By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus[/b]. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.(Act 4:29-31)

I think if I were in the same situation as those early believers in Acts 4 I would probably pray for protection but these believers didn't appear to be so concerned about themselves but rather about the glory of God. They asked and expected that God would give them boldness and confirm the word with miracles. I think it's time for the church to pray again as they did.

In Christ,

Ron

InTheLight wrote:
I think it's time for the church to pray again as they did.

AMEN

We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. We are saved by grace to do good works which God has prepared for us to do.

Titus 2:11-14 speaks about this:
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

I noticed that nearly all the scriptures you used were from the gospels. Very little of the gospels were written to the church.

They might not have been written specifically to a particular church, but the gospels were written for all believers.

Hi Ron,

Are the works we are called to do miracles or simply confirmation that we are in the Son and the Son is in us?
John 14:10-11
[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Should this not be the norm where the Word is preached by a believer?

In His Love
pastorfrin

To believe is to believe in such a way that it changes my life so that I cry out "Jesus, because of what you did for me I repent of my sin and will keep your commandments." So it has to be a deep convincing belief, not just an assent to the fact that a certain thing is true.

The problem is we try to read into things, when to us, it's too simple, or, to us, the truth is not doing what we think it should do.

Very good. I think this is a common problem, and God spoke to me about it a couple of years ago through this passage:

Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain he (Jesus) charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10. And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

Now that seems really ignorant that they couldn't see that it meant exactly what it said. THE RISING FROM THE DEAD! I don't know of any other way to interpret that ;-)
Well, I found out that I was doind alot the same thing by wondering "what does this mean" or "I wonder what Jesus meant by that". Well, if Jesus said in John 14:12 that we would do greater works than he did because he was going to the Father, I think I can safely deduce that he meant [b]greater works.[/b] So now the question is where are the greater works? Not that we need them to be saved, but as a tool to bring souls to God. Well to be honest with myself I'm not doing the "greater works". I found that I can't just go up and speak with "holy boldness" or heal someone. So I have to conclude that I'm missing something in what God intended christians to be. I don't know what that is exactly but I know the One who does so I'm urgently and desperately seeking Him to restore me to what the disciples were in the book of Acts so that God might get the most amount of glory out of my life.

Oh God make the church what it is meant to be, starting with me!

Are the works we are called to do miracles or simply confirmation that we are in the Son and the Son is in us?

I believe the works referred to in the John 14 passage you quoted are miracles. I believe Jesus was saying that they should believe just based upon His word but if that were not enough the miracles would fully convince those of "weak faith". I believe that many times the confirmation of the apostles word was miraculous works with the result of many converted.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.(Mar 16:19-20)

In Christ,

Ron

I believe that many times the confirmation of the apostles word was miraculous works with the result of many converted.

And isn't that exactly what the miracles were for? I definitely believe so.

Hi chief,

I noticed that nearly all the scriptures you used were from the gospels. Very little of the gospels were written to the church.

The usual answer for explaining away the works of Christ in us! Problem is the gospels
Where written to every believer if we can believe His command in
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

“This states what we are to teach all nations to the end of this age: "all things" that He commanded His disciples. No man or church has a right to qualify or limit, to add to or take from, any of the original teachings and practices of Christ and the apostles. This means that every jot and title of the New Testament from Matthew 1:1 to Rev. 22:21 is the contract we are now under and all of it must be taught and practiced by Christians.”
(Dake)

In other words Jesus said if you are a believer you shall.
Mark 16:15-20
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. [20] And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Let me emphasize here that it is not the signs I am talking about but the believer and ‘If’ you are a believer Jesus says these things will happen because you are.
If we proclaim His Word without the works than men have no confirmation that it is His
Word!

Thus we have Jesus saying:
John 14:8-12
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. [9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? [10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. [12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

He has gone to the Father, are we believers or not?

In His Love
pastorfrin

My question to you is this. What are the works we are to perform.

I'm not the one to whom the question was adressed and neither do I have and exact answer to this but I just want to say that in real revivals there are often testimonies of healings and other miracles. Now I don't believe [b]AT ALL[/b] that we need to seek for signs and miracles, but I think there is benefit in asking ourselves the question "what is the difference from us and the church in Acts?"

Don't you see what your saying. Your telling me that you saved yourself by your works. The crying out, the repenting,(if your saying repentance is what I think your saying)The tears, the begging, the pleading, the EMOTION, the FEELING.

Yes I can see that that wasn't explained very well. I'm terribly sorry. We are saved by [b]grace through faith ALONE[/b], but what I was getting at is that to truly believe means that your life will change. The Bible makes it clear that even the demons believe. Repenting doesn't save you but to be saved you must repent... if that makes any sense.
Thank you for correcting that! (blush)

Hi chief,
You asked,

My question to you is this. What are the works we are to perform.

I believe Jesus has adequately answered that question, but if you believe we are only to use His words for study and growth and not for application it really makes no difference.
No wonder the church is so confused today. :-?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi chief,
You said,

The power of God is the gospel. The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peacelongsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, speaking in tongues, healing, casting out demons, slaying in the spirit, an emotional high. Oh....sorry about that. You get what I'm saying.

You make light of the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ and this is inexcusable.
Yes, we are saved by
Ephes. 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This does not excuse us from the commands of Jesus Christ. The ‘Fruit of the Spirit’ is the motivation for the operation of the ‘Gifts of the Spirit’ and if I were you I would not make light of either one. If these are missing in your life then you do not believe, or your belief is the same as the demons in James 2.

Jesus makes this abundantly clear in:

John 15:1-6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If you do not bear fruit you are cast forth and burned. You do not stay in the vine and not bear fruit.

This is a major problem in the Church today; people being told just believe and you will be saved without the witness of the Spirit bearing witness with there spirit that they are and with no fruit seen or expected in their life.

Yes, Jesus means it when he says,
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

To say this does not apply to us is to say we do not need to follow this command:
John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

So why do we follow the commands of Jesus Christ? Because He is in us and we are in Him and that all men shall know that we are His disciples.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi chief,

You said:

These are truly spiritual things, but you can't see them.

It is strange that you would say such a thing since I have already stated the importance of the ‘Fruit of the Spirit’ and am currently teaching a series on the ‘Fruit of the Spirit’. Every operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer comes through the ‘Fruit of the Spirit’. These are attributes of our Lord and if we are in Christ and Christ in us this fruit will be evident in our lives; so yes I clearly understand the importance of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

I believe you are only willing to receive part of what the Lord has for you and if you are comfortable with that then so be it; as for me and my house we will accept all the Lord has given and depend on His wisdom for their operation through us.
Proverbs 16:3
Commit thy works unto the Lord, and thy thoughts shall be established.

Rather we like it or not Jesus will reward every man according to his works and will answer the prayers of those believers who stand before Him with a clean heart because they keep His commandments and do those things which are pleasing in His sight.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 3:18-22
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. [19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

“He shall reward every man according to his works.”

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead”

“Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.”

“Commit thy works unto the Lord and thy thoughts shall be established.”

1 John 2:3-4
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Blessings to you in your walk with our Lord:

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi chief,

you said:

I meant they are not visual to the eye. They are spiritual things. That's why the carnal man can't see them, because their not visual.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

John 10:32
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Acts 9:36
Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

Romans 13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Ephes. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Tim. 2:10
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1 Tim. 5:10
Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

1 Tim. 5:25
Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1 Tim. 6:18
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2 Tim. 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14
And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Now these sound very visual to me, in fact these good works are to be a witness unto the carnal man.
The 'Fruit of the Spirit' is manfested in good works and is what causes the 'Gifts of the Spirit' to operate in love.

If a whole cogregation of people suddenly have fear come upon them, you can count on it, that that is NOT the Spirit, that is the spirit of the antichrist..

Have you never heard the sermon 'Sinners in the Hands of an angry God' by Johnathan Edwards
seems fear came upon an entire congregation.
The fear of God is necessary along with being poor in spirit, and sorrow, mourning over our
past sins leads to and is necessary for repentance.
This is all plain in the whole counsel of God's
Word.
In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi chief,

You said:

Theres no requirement to do good works, we SHOULD do good works, but it doesn'nt have anything to do with our salvation.

1 John 2:3-4
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi chief,

You said:

Ahh..another James scripture. Well, here goes. Short as I can put it. If there are no works, than your faith is dead. How do we create more faith? We do good works, it strengthens our faith. As for Ist John, Well,.... I'll just point it back at you. Pastorfrin,....Have you,... .......sir,..... kept all the commandments?

God’s Word is God’s Word and it does not change because one does not agree with one book or one verse it still remains God’s Word. It would seem you base your doctrine on what you see and not what God says, so far you have made excuses for the Gospels, Acts, Tim., Titus, James and 1John. As far as the commandments of Jesus Christ, if I have broken all of them it does not change the Word of God.
If Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior then your life will be dedicated to doing those things that are pleasing in HIS sight.

1 John 3:18-24
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. [19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Why, because HIS WORD says so and HIS WORD is final.

In His Love
pastorfrin

chiefosiners,

Give this a perusing.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10733&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Jonathan Edwards - Undiscerned Spiritual Pride[/url]

chiefosiners

Have you come to be contentious? You are in the wrong place if that be so. Recommended the link to take off some of the rough edges that are cutting through your comments.

Well I am not your 'buddy' brother and the problem has to do with your conduct, your pride is evident enough.

Read the disclaimer.

Beyond ...

I'm not scarred of you or this other guy

I don't where it is you think you have landed but this a forum and a fellowship not a place for argumentative and smart alek type responses.

chiefosiners,

I am sticking my nose into this discussion and changing the subject a tad bit.

I am bothered by the nickname you have chosen for yourself: "chiefosiners". Sir, in the letters written to the NT church, they were addressed to the "Saints...", not sinners. Seems to me if you consider yourself still the chief of sinners you have not been transformed by the blood of Jesus through the infilling of His Spirit....

What say?

ginnyrose