What should a Christian do when overtaken by a particular sin?

What should a Christian do when overtaken by a particular sin, i mean so overtaken that there are nearly drowing in it and it has risen up from the place where once it was put down and mortified to dominate the person and overwhelm and even control them. I mean to the degree where a man or woman cant seem to get free of this one sin and this sin has seemingly sucked all the spiritual life out of the person so it feels as though there is none left.

What should a Christian do when a sin has thus overtaken them. To back this up scripturely i refer to Galatians 6:1 and would appreciate your comments on this verse.

"Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted."

Can a true Christian indeed by so overtaken by any particular sin that it begins to enslave him or her again? Or is this a definite sign that the person was never truly saved and currently is lost? Again i would refer you back to Gal 6:1 for the correct interpretation of it and also Psalm 40:12 when the usually godly David says:

"For innumerable evils have surrounded me;My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up; They are more than the hairs of my head; Therefore my heart fails me."

So what should the Christian do in this situation where his or her heart has been hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, his conscience desensitised to sin and His power to morify sin almost non existant and his will to do so losing to his will to sin. When that sin is no longer followed by such extremes of remorse and godly sorrow as it once was when he first committed it?

Is there hope for such a person?

Brother/Sister?
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And just to kind of kick your thoughts into gear, did God ever cast off Israel. or did He chasten them to drive out the rebellion? Has He changed?
Not making any excuses for sin, but also knowing there are times that even our sin though not authored by God is used to chasten us and drive us to Christ. Thus we can trust that all things are working together for good.

The bottom line is if the person is grieved and fighting against this sin, or if the fight has gone out, and like the pig takes to the mud so this one takes to this sin, and abides in it comfortably. However though pigs love mud, cats do not and will immediately clean themselves. Nature dictates which is which. I hope you see the point in this poor illustration.

I believe if there is any conviction or "fight" in the person they need to be strongly exhorated to flee from the wrath to come and the sin that wants to drag them to hell. Sinning is not playing games but is a dangerous evil that is unmeasurable. The only accurate measurement is the death of God's own Son. We need to think of sin as it is.

It is a shame that we have lost that very idea of "the sinfulness of sin" and how great our Saviour is to save from sin. Because of our low view of sin, we have a low view of the Deliverer. May god help us to see the great offence of our sin, and as you said "flee" straight to the Mercy Seat of God.

It is hard to flee from what entices, and thus may God also change the desires of our hearts, and grant us grace not only to flee, but to fight, and keep under this fallen body of death.

The brother in 1 Corintians 5:1 was overtaken by sin. I wonder if he may be the repentant one mentioned in 2 Corinthians 2:6-7. Paul told them to "hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."
I do not claim to fully understand what all that means. I have found some cases though where I felt it was important that the church let the Holy Spirit work instead of trying to "save" the sinner from his misery. Sometimes in church we try to rescue people from the consequences of their sin rather than let the Holy Spirit use those to bring them to repentance. In all things we must let the Spirit lead.
Paul continually called the church away from sin to live in the fullness of their calling in Christ. I expect he gave that call to sincere Christians as the Galatians 6 passage warns that even the spiritual persons who attempt to restore others must be careful of temptation.
One final point that I would like to add to the discussion: It is important to note that those passages that relate to church discipline have the goal of restoration in mind. Sin is incredibly destructive, and we should never let it find a home in our hearts, but when we see a brother or sister enslaved again, our heart's desire ought to be for their restoration. Any action we take must be motivated with that heart.

Here4Him wrote:
What should a Christian do when overtaken by a particular sin, i mean so overtaken that there are nearly drowing in it and it has risen up from the place where once it was put down and mortified to dominate the person and overwhelm and even control them. I mean to the degree where a man or woman cant seem to get free of this one sin and this sin has seemingly sucked all the spiritual life out of the person so it feels as though there is none left.

I think the reason this has happened is perhaps found in the last paragraph you wrote:

So what should the Christian do in this situation where his or her heart has been hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, his conscience desensitised to sin and His power to morify sin almost non existant and his will to do so losing to his will to sin. When that sin is no longer followed by such extremes of remorse and godly sorrow as it once was when he first committed it?

Deceitfulness of sin is usually greater in our weak areas and that's exactly where we're tempted to sin. If we are not at watch for the roaring lion, which "walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" we are open to be seduced to sin.

Now I don't think it's a matter of salvation, though such doubts can arise in the heart, since you say that in the beginning this sin caused great "remorse and godly sorrow", so I don't think this person is comfortable in this sin even though the heart is more hardened now. The heart is hardened because this sin has occured more times but is the conscience fully pacified and at home with it?

While I agree with my brethren who replied before me that we have to think of sin as it is, a great dangerous evil, so great that it costed the very death of God's Son, I think we need to equally remember God's "ready to forgive" nature when we repent.

Psa 86:5 For thou, Lord, [art] good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Mic 7:18 Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy.

I think it's very important to have the right attitude about God before you try to deal with the problem. God is always FOR us and wants us to overcome sin and he has given us all that is necessary for that (2Pe.1:3). He is our helper in overcoming temptation, our father that awaits us expectantly with open arms to return to Him, and not the one who condemns us (Rom.8:34). Keeping this in mind will keep us off the "struggling" thoughts, where we focus on ourselves as if we were expected to overcome sin by our own efforts.
I'd like to share some thoughts from O.Chambers that spoke to me recently:
"We are in danger of forgetting that we cannot do what God does, and that God will not do what we can do. We cannot save nor sanctify ourselves— God does that. But God will not give us good habits or character, and He will not force us to walk correctly before Him." (you can read the rest of the article [url=http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php?month=05&day=10&year=07]here[/url].)

So having this clear in mind, then I think can we set our heart on obtaining the victory as dorcas said, and do all that it is in our hands to avoid this sin and flee from it.

I think that the greatest victory over sin is obtainable when we focus our mind on the things of God, when we fill our heart with meditations upon Him (His nature), which will help us realize the awful nature of sin and God's hatred of it and at the same time will help us set our whole heart not to sin and allow to be led by the Spirit of God.

Is there hope for such a person?>>>>>NO! Just kidding.

So what should the Christian do in this situation where his or her heart has been hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, his conscience desensitised to sin and His power to morify sin almost non existant and his will to do so losing to his will to sin. When that sin is no longer followed by such extremes of remorse and godly sorrow as it once was when he first committed it?

I'm going to be overly simplistic here and give a scripture that's very easy to not only understand but also to do. Look Consider Embrace
and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. etc.....

There is much provision and wisdom and strength in the Word of God for this, as others are bringing forth. "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and THE WORD OF GOD ABIDETH IN YOU, and ye have overcome the wicked one" (1 Jn. 2.13). There is the victory: the living Word of God resident within.

But I just want to emphasize one thing right where the rubber meets the road. The Devil is called The Tempter. That means dealing in a very radical way with the things he uses to tempt with.

God will do much. But what of our part? There's been defeat after defeat? Is it time to deal with the stumblingblocks?

TV a stumblingblock? Out with it!

Internet? Out with the computer! Or put it in the kitchen where Mom's eyes are on duty. (Or whoever.) Whatever fail-safe thing has to be done!

...Or whatever radical change needs to be made on a very practical level!

"Cleanse your hands, ye sinners, and purify your hearts, ye double-minded."

Those two things: the heart, the inward life. And the hands, the outward.

...There is hope! Dear Jesus, we pray for this brother. Impart grace to him, Lord. Pour in the wine and the oil into his wounded conscience, and heal it. Let his conscience be sprinkled and stained with the cleansing Blood that washes away the stains of sin! Cause him to put on the whole armour of God, and to stand in the battle, rejoicing in You as You rejoice in him! Grant him to draw nigh the Throne of Grace again, and find mercy, and help in time of need. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

"Let not conscience make you linger,
Not of fitness fondly dream:
All the fitness He requireth
Is to feel our need of Him."

AD

One very powerful way to break the grasp of a Stronghold is Prayer and Fasting.

Here are the words to a hymn by John Newton that are absolutely wonderful

Approach, my soul, the mercy seat,
Where Jesus answers prayer;
There humbly fall before His feet,
For none can perish there.

1. Thy promise is my only plea,
With this I venture nigh;
Thou callest burdened souls to Thee
And such, O Lord, am I.

2. Bowed down beneath a load of sin,
By Satan sorely pressed,
By wars without and fears within,
I come to Thee for rest.

3. Be Thou my shield and hiding place,
That, sheltered near Thy side,
I may my fierce accuser face,
And tell him Thou hast died!

4. O wondrous love! To bleed and die,
To bear the cross and shame,
That guilty sinners, such as I,
Might plead Thy gracious name!

Enjoy brethren :-D

Can i thank you all for your comments and concerns and exhortations and prayers. I have really felt God's grace at work in my soul over the last 24 hours. I was driving along in my car last night and something came over me and i just started crying out to God at the top of my voice, weeping over my sin and crying to Him for mercy- this was all while i was still driving until i later pulled in.

"He restoreth my soul".

This is a battle, im well aware of the serious nature of the battle, as i read in John Owen recently 'be killing sin or sin will be killing you'. Well sin was starting to kill me so i must have an all out offensive on it in the power of Christ's Spirit. Thats why today i just lay there before Him and cried to Him for grace and help because this was too much for me. I must continue in this dependance for the rest of my life.

I found so much comfort and help from praying the hymns in the sction entitled 'Plea for grace and help' in Christian hymns. I could hardly find the words to pray myself, but those said it all and helped me come to Christ so much!

One thing i have learned is that the Hebrews 3 scripture about exhorting one another daily while it is called today is so vitally important, because otherwise it is so easy to get hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and that is such a terrible place to be in, that is why it must be avoided at all costs.

Thank you for the sermon, article and book suggestions, i will look into some of those.

Lets keep loving and exhorting one another while it is called today!

Love in Christ,

Here4Him

Do you have a brother or two you can go to and ask for help? I mean, besides this forum? One or two real "flesh and blood" brothers you can bare your heart to and pray with, and maybe set in place some kind of accountability plan? Maybe even move in with for a season? I don't know your personal circumstances.

AD

If I may recommend the following:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=17003&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go] Triumphant In Temptation ~ O. J. Finch, D.D.[/url]

I know there is often a slight gasp that goes up over 'long post's' and indeed this is one, yet it is rather a small book of seven chapters that contains perhaps even an unnoticed trick in the devils arsenal itself; Too [i]long[/i] and too [i]simple[/i]. In the authors own words at one point;

[i]Such facts may seem to be so simple as to cause them to be inconsequential[/i]

The point being that in reality this little treatise is not that long at all and presents some very basic and seemingly 'simple' facts. In all honesty the matter being addressed here, namely what to do after the fact and towards being [i]overtaken[/i] in a predominant sin is not specifically noted through this. However ...

There is without this exact addressing the answer and remedy I believe within it's context. Would point out that in the scenario given at the onset of this post something that comes up frequently enough and is often overlooked and that is the [i]desire[/i] [b]still[/b] to be rid of the predominant sin, even as it seems to be having the upper hand. There is still a 'fight' however weak and fragile. If I could put it differently, a hardened heart is not concerned about it's state of hardness.

It is likewise difficult to answer this in too much specific not knowing if we are dealing with a hypothetical or a personal admission. But to revert back here to the recommendation ...

The one thing we can always do is repent, as long as we have breath there is hope and there is provision made of forgiveness and starting over. Others here have already made mention of much of this and I would carry it perhaps a bit further. What is so amazing indeed about grace is in it's very difficulty of accepting it.

Knowing what is deserved, what ought to come as a result of sin, the pain involved in failure and displeasing the very Lord and God we proclaim and profess to love by either capitulating, presuming or being 'overtaken' by strong temptation and into the outworking, [i]sin[/i], is not to lessen the one for the remedy of the other. If I may, it is to stand or rather fall at the feet of the Lord and be utterly amazed that such a sin, any sin can be confessed and forgiven. It is the [u]amazement[/u] that it can [i][b]still[/b][/i] be so.

One of the best examples that I know of is with David after the tragedy, cover up and multiple sins of premeditated murder and adultery with Bathsheba;

[i]Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, [b]The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.[/b]

[u]Howbeit[/u], because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead. [b]Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.[/b]

Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.[/i] 2Sa 12:9-24

This whole discourse is so rich with understanding to isolate the one bit for emphasis I hope doesn't overshadow the context of the whole. The point I would be drawing to there is that of [i]starting over[/i] and where I would draw parallels to this recommendation of the small book linked. Know your enemy and know the power and understanding of your Saviour. Know that the [b]same[/b], [i]exact same[/i] Holy Spirit is He who resides in us who are truly His. A word about doubting here, since it was also mentioned in the original post. This whole OSAS business is gotten to be so far out into extremities as to, in my mind at least be a starting at the wrong end. Somewhere in the many continual discussions about this mentioned the absurdity on the one hand, the equivalent of telling a child in his fathers presence that he has not a parent or of punching someone in the face and asking, "Did that hurt?". The opposite extreme would be to [i]tell[/i] someone of a 'fact' not experienced by mere association or repetition of words they have something they know nothing of internally, experientially and factually. Either we have the witness of The Spirit or we don't, there is no middle, muddy ground. To be reborn is [i]birth[/i] [b]and[/b] [i]growth[/i] and [i]continues[/i], endures [i]all things[/i], is not presumptuous nor is it paranoid. Far too much is given in scripture against this whole presumptuous attitude by way of emphasis on [i]taking heed[/i], of watching ones conduct spiritually first and foremost, examining oneself and reminding oneself, endurance. Felt it very necessary to bring this to the fore here because of what doubting does on wrong lines and poor advice. There is a great deal spoken to in the little book along these lines, this great trick of the devil. I think it is far beyond the reach of the saints in most instances to be playing the devils advocate in inducing doubt rather then pressing the soul to come to it's own [b][i]known[/i][/b] conclusions. Salvation itself is this way, no one can make certain for some one else by mere statement an 'assurance' and have in large part gone and done much damage by this easy, cheap, costless 'believism' by [i]telling[/i] or making judgment that which;

[i]For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.[/i] 1Co 2:11

This always must be in the reverse of how this days 'presentation' would have it. The saved will know it and tell it, not the other way around. Having to be told and then figuring out how to live up to it or constantly being under a tossing and turning between two opinions, it is utter confusion and a diabolical matter and it does pertain very much to this whole matter under discussion.

Start over. That is the answer to all of this, hypothetical or personal as it may be. It is precisely what David did afterwords. Guilt is a tricky matter and I would say it is not to be totally dismissed. What ought to be left of the ramifications is [i]remembrance[/i], not continuance in wallowing after the failure. Surely David remembered and remembered well as he poured out his heart afterwords into the Psalms and specifically in regards to this monumental event of the past.

Some things are indeed simple, but that does not make them [i]simplistic[/i]. I fear that there is too often a glazing over or past deep penetrating matters by jumping to the concessionary end and missing he greater context and amazing understanding of love and true forgiveness. It is [i]costly[/i]. Looking through what the Lord did in this tragedy is quite incredible. It [i]cost[/i] David [i]his son[/i] need I draw the parallels to Gods own? This baby, a product of someone else's sin [i]taken[/i], in essence punished through no fault of it's own, but the greater punishment was upon David. Within that still is the paradox and beauty that [i]While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.[/i]

It is a profound and incredible thing to recognize where the child is and Davids understanding [i]despite everything[/i] his expectation to one day [i]go to him[/i].

And if all this was not enough, there is this outrageous ...

[i]And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and[/i]

[b]the LORD loved him.[/b]

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

We must be people of the Book. My experience so far has been that temptations often get more intense and at times even completely debilitating. They can be so strong as to just baffle everything I know to do, [i]the enemy comes in like a flood[/i], [i]a roaring lion seeking who he may devour[/i]. In the heat of it it is easy to overlook the more poignant fact that he is actually coming after you ... what on earth for? If it wasn't for the fact that you have something worth destroying, then why the bother?

What this little book shows and is so greatly helpful towards is in just reminders. That we need to be on-guard [i]all the time[/i]. That we need to be in Gods will and paying a great deal of [i]attention[/i] and before all that to be ready, steadfast and mindful of the [i][b]pain[/b][/i] of past failures. It is exceedingly difficult at times I acknowledge in the throes of some of these attacks, the appealing to natural passions and fleshly, physical desires, they can be quite overwhelming. There is [i]always[/i] an out, always. We have to practice something that can come quite too easily unfortunately in our lives towards the Lord and use it against the enemy of our souls;

Disbelief!

Whatever he is promising is a lie no matter how appealing the moment would have us deceived otherwise. The result is pain and failure and remorse and regret, it is a trade off for the lesser every time and some sins will leave deep scars ... Is it [i]worth[/i] it? A good question to ask ourselves. There is much to be gleaned in this little book about the character and dealings of our Lord in His hours of great trial, of Job and Joseph, Daniel.

One last note that is a constant snare I think for many of us; Tomorrow.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Mat 6:34

Remember yesterday to the measure that it will help jostle the brain to recollection of pain of sin committed and resolve to concentrate on todays troubles, It is always to get up again and go forth after repentance, just as David did,

[i]While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept[/i]

[i]But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast?[/i]

Tomorrow will take care of itself.

Blessings.

Thats why today i just lay there before Him and cried to Him for grace and help because this was too much for me. I must continue in this dependance for the rest of my life.

I think it's absolutely essential for all Christians - necessary but blessed dependance on our Lord!

I need Thee every hour, most gracious Lord;
No tender voice like Thine can peace afford.

I need Thee, O I need Thee;
Every hour I need Thee;
O bless me now, my Savior,
I come to Thee.

I need Thee every hour, stay Thou nearby;
Temptations lose their power when Thou art nigh.

I need Thee every hour, in joy or pain;
Come quickly and abide, or life is in vain.

I need Thee every hour; teach me Thy will;
And Thy rich promises in me fulfill.

I need Thee every hour, most Holy One;
O make me Thine indeed, Thou blessèd Son.

1Pe 5:10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

Josef or any true saint before reading my post, please I ask God to place it in your heart to pray I overcome the following:

Thank you brother for your somewhat brutal post--"a man or woman overcome with sin is not a brother or sister in the Lord"--terrifying, deadly words. I took offense because I am shackled by sin. I have struggled with this one particular sin that has colored and crept into every part of my physical and spiritual life. But Josef I know your words are truth, God's truth.

Until I overcome I feel as though I am dead to not only God but to everything and everyone, but most importantly, far above all other things and people, to God.

Josef as I read your testimony of the Word of my Lord, I agree with you--I must overcome by God's Word, doing whatever it takes. I must overcome now because I feel time is short and we will all be standing before God to take our places in the judgement. I must overcome because God says I must.

I'm at the bottom in my sin which is gluttony and I believe the Lord has turned me over and my physical hunger has grown to the point I am desperate, isolated, dysfunctional. I have abandoned and been abandoned by all family and friends as I've isolated myself in my shame. There are so many things God has called me to which I don't do because of this shame which brings more gluttony which brings more shame. I have sought to overcome by prayer and periodic fasting for several years and still I remain in this sin. I am in despair, total despair.

I begin anew today after reading your post Josef which I thank you for. I am here at this site for this very reason, desperately looking for an answer.

Thank you Josef for your post; I pray God blesses me with your words. I pray God blesses many who are in sin with your words Josef. In Jesus' name I pray the Lord lead many to your post and I pray Jesus that we who are in sin will later give testimony that the words of our Lord spoken through Josef helped us overcome.

Also, others who posted Godly wisdom and advice I thank you also.

SAINTS OF THE LIVING GOD JESUS CHRIST, please please please pray for me, pray for us who are in sin and want to overcome.

Josef... I thought what you posted was good, and FreebyWord took hold of it. That's good.

But that's a pretty strong statement, that a brother struggling with sin "to the point where he cannot get free" isn't even a brother in the first place. That might be a pretty heavy word for some, so heavy they might not be able to get up from under it.

What would you say of the man who wrote Romans Chapter Seven? Not a brother? No, there are many of the Lord's own, true Christians brothers and sisters, who go through that "Romans Seven" experience, defeated by sin, and finding in themselves no hope whatsoever of ever beating that thing no matter what they do or how hard they try. And they know what it's like at the bottom of that horrible pit called despair.

The good they want to do, they can't do. The evil they hate, that's what they find themselves doing. Again and again and again. And they hate themselves for it!

Until there arises such a cry from the depths in their hearts, "O wretched man that I am? Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

They feel they are living in a corpse, sin has that great a power over them! I read somewhere once... that's what the Romans used to do to certain prisoners condemned to death: they would bind them to a corpse until that death in the corpse ate into them too, and they died too. Maybe that's what Paul had in mind, writing about the struggle he himself went through. With "the law of sin and death."

Because that's what the law of sin and death is to sinners. It's like a dead corpse we're strapped to. "The body of this death."

But is there any hope? Yes! Yes there is! There is ANOTHER law: "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus!"

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8.2).

Can it actually be true? There is a LAW that can work in me, ruling and over-ruling, as powerfully as the law of sin and death once did? And even more powerfully?

YES. It's true!

So I just want to encourage with HOPE those who are tormented to the point of despair because of the hold the law of sin and death has in their lives.

Put on your head for a helmet the HOPE of salvation! JESUS CHRIST HAS BROKEN THAT LAW, broken the power of the law of sin and death, and, just as you were once bound to that "corpse" of sin, can BIND YOU TO HIMSELF, so that the law of LIFE and righteousness that rules and reigns in His own Body now rules in you, and overrules the sin!

Thank you, Jesus!

We are living in a day when multitudes of sincere Christians are struggling with sin like never before! The Devil is fighting flat out! We are deeply in need of a new ministration of Righteousness from the Throne of Grace! I believe it is coming! It is at hand! God is preparing to release greater grace upon His Church in this hour! "That like as sin hath reigned unto death even so might grace REIGN through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5.21).

So, don't give up!

FreebyWord, I want to encourage you. After I read your post earlier, I started to pray for you, and just as I started to pray for you, the Presence of the Lord filled my heart! So I know by this that Jesus knows you, and wanted to get a message through to you: that He knows your struggle, loves you, cares for you, and is going to see you through to VICTORY!

Don't give up! "Behold, we count them happy which endure!"

AD

Josef, what was you said was pretty strong. I am familiar with the scriptures you quoted and i agree with you that a person who claims to be a Christian but is only continually and habitually enslaved to sin cannot truly be a Christian.

However i also think you need to be a little careful in some of what you say. I do recognise that my best friend is the person who will speak the most truth to me no matter how hard it is to hear, and if that is you and what you said is what i needed to hear then i thank you for it.

I will certainly pray through what you said Josef, and search my heart before the Lord to see if i really am saved. However i have done that so many times. Josef if i am not saved i dont know how anyone can be saved. In the times when i have been stuggling with sin and even overwhelmed by it i have cired out to the Lord so desperately, i have taken all possible outward steps toward repentance, endeavouring to cut off any links with that sin or cut out any temptation even. Then i have cried out to the Lord that if i am not saved and my sin has proven that- I cry out that He would save me. I know only Christ can save me and set the sinner free. In those times i have desperately wanted to be free from all sin and to be only Christ's and i still desire that now and im fighting to that end, fighting against sin again that had risen up and for a short time overwhelmed me.

Josef and others you still have not answered part of my original thread about those verses that i quoted. I will remind you of them:

"Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." Gal 6:1

Also Psalm 40:12 when the usually godly David says:

"For innumerable evils have surrounded me;My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up; They are more than the hairs of my head; Therefore my heart fails me."

Are we to discount this scriptures or does scripture indeed teach that a true believer can be overwhelmed and overtaken by a particular sin for a period, no matter how undesirable that might be?

In my case Josef, i am open to the truth, and if i am really not saved, I pray God that He will show me so i can be saved. But if i am not saved im not sure i know how to be seeing as i have done all i can to repent and then cried to Jesus to save me as only He can and to change my heart as only He can and to be my Lord and my King. If you cannot be saved that way- i know of no other way.

In my case i have not always been overwhelmed by sin. For several years, by the grace of God i have walked in continual victory ( i cannot say i have not sinned in my heart, in that area), but i have been watchful, prayerful, fighting against it and experiencing through Christ's strength a measure of victory over sin that i once thought not possible. It is only recently that i have began to struggle with this sin again and at occasions have been overwhelmed by it and have given in. To wich i feel awful and have sought the Lord for repentance and restoration with tears, but i cant deny i at times did sin willfully and deliberately, knowing what i was doing was wrong but i had allowed the sinful nature to rise up so strong that i seemed to be powerless to resist. So does this mean that i am not a Christian?

Josef, you say that if someone sins willfully after they have received the knowledge of the truth then there no longer remains a sacrifice for their sins and they are dammned. Are you sure you are not misinterpretting that scripture? I mean what Christian can say that they have never sinned against light? Can you say you have never deliberately done something against your conscience and knowledge of the truth since being born again? If that scripture does mean that then do you recommend i give up? And do you recommend that any Christian who has fallen or slidden into sin give up?

I cannot give up, and by the grace of God i will not give up. I know that what i have done to the Lord through my sin is awful and i deserve to be dammned, but i still belive in His mercy and grace and power and so i am still seeking Him for a work of grace in my heart.

I might have lost one or two battles against sin, i admit it, shamefully, but by God;s grace i am determined to win the war!

I will fight sin to the death, knowing that if i dont it will destory me. I will not fight in my own strength but take it to my captain Jesus Christ and we will fight it together.

Because i believe that He is the Lord who 'restores my soul', praise His Name!

FreeByWord,
Please check your message box...I sent you a PM. Newbies on this forum are often ignorant of this feature...just thought I would help you make aware it exists...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

You got a lot of excellent advice here. I did not read all of it, so please pardon me if what I am going to say has already been said.

Your concern is healthy for your spiritual well-being. And you mentioned how you did get victory one day while driving. PTL!

When one is bedeviled by a besetting sin, one becomes so desperate you grasp at straws, anything that promises deliverance. You will read anything that instructs you on how to achieve victory. (Been there, done that.) The danger in this is that you will soon become so focused on METHOD instead of a person, namely Jesus Christ. When your eyes are trained on method, you will have victories, but they will be short lived. Then BOOM! you fall again. (Been there, done that.)

In my experience, I wept much, prayed much and when I was at the absolute bottom, deliverance came. But I had to rattle the door, shake it until it just about came off the hinges..."Yes, I did take the kingdom by force!" But it came. And I have been free from its grip ever since. Tempted, yes, but it has lost its hold on me. Big difference. BTW: my besetting sin was evil imagination. I shared my testimony of this experience on this forum. Here is the link to this testimony: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15729&forum=35#122468

God bless you in your pursuit of holiness,

ginnyrose

First, we must realize that a "brother" who is struggling with and dominated by sin to the point where he cannot get free is no brother at all. His intentions may be good, but if he is bound in sin then he will not inherit the Kingdom of God so long as he remains in such a state.

"Struggling" suggests a want of deliverance does it not? Would be very careful about deciding who is or is not a 'brother'. Willful and continual suggests an effort in the opposite direction.

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing against myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Co 4:5 Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall each man have his praise from God.

Struggling would indicate a new principle within would it not? After all, was there a struggle to not sin prior to salvation? or did we drink down sin like water with no regard to how it affected God, or if it was in complete rebellion to the one who gave us life?

The struggle is a good indication of a new Being within for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, not agains the flesh.

Remember Jesus spoke of the wheat and tares, and how they would grow together until the end, and a brother pointed out to me yesterday that immature Christians will look alot like tares at times as both look alike in the growing stages, but when fully grown one can see the difference. Thus we must take heed as Christ said that the Lord of the harvest said, "let them grow together" we will see eventually who is and who is not.

Another point to is that when Jeus spoke about the master of a vineyard, and how he wanted to cut down an unfruitful plant, but there was one who said, "let it alone for the next year, and I will dg around it and fertilize it. Then if there is no fruit, cut it down."(Luke 13:6-9) Do you not see the mercy in that?

Again, when did God ever cast off Israel in the OT? In spite of their continued rebellion He never did. Sure He chastened His people to bring repentance, and restoration, yet He never said, "that's it I am finished with you!" Even after they rejected Christ, God still will save folks from the nation of Israel.

God says that His Servant will not break the bruised reed, neither will He quench the smoking flax. These are great words to ponder when in the slough of despair.

Here4him wrote:

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." Gal 6:1

Dear brother let me give you my humble advice, for i myself have been a backslider and i believe in a worse spiritual condition then you are goin through or have been goin. The Lord has chastinth me many times in the past but i kept goin sinning and living a disobedient life.And whenever i attempted to pray because i regretted my sin i was powerless i could hardly even open my mouth and speak audibly, most of my feeble prayer was almost voiceless.

I was bound by sin to the point that i would very rarely read the bible and whenever i did it was usually for a matter of minnutes.

I was so bound that i would find it very hard to praise God with a song, my heart so hardened by sins that what once was a natural and spontanious thing praising God became the most unfamiliar thing with me. I had forgotten to worship God.

Like David i could wel have sad : "innumerable evils have surrounded me;My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up; They are more than the hairs of my head; Therefore my heart fails me." I feel shame to mention all i did.

But praise God and glory to Jesus God still loved me even though he chastenth me, even though He withdraw his presence from my heart, oh the amazing grace of God, i thought i deserved hell.........everything was hopeless for me great was my fall from grace but greater still are the mercies of God.

Here i am to witness of his amzing love, i repented of my sins, humbled myself in his sight, back to his bossom i came again and his arms were wide open waiting for me to come back, i miss his hug and smile and the time that i spend with Him on the top of the mountains.

Here i am forgiven again of my sins, the Shepherd had not forgotten the straying sheep, even i forgot Him, he still loved me and prayed for me to the father.....oh Jesus how many tears you shed for your wandering sheep, your love conquered me back, you saved me from your wrath and the Father's judgments.

Brother dont struggle with sin but look to Jesus no effort of your soul will get rid of your sin, look to the bleeding Saviour and offer him your 'black' heart and he will wash it and make it white. Look i say again His blood can redeem your soul and set you free, there is power in the blood of the Lamb.

Thank you brother (Elected); your post helped me immensely because I know it's God's own truth. I've also been to that mountain top you wrote of today. That is why I can't understand my weakness in my walk. I've heard the actual voice of God, known the infilling of His radiant love.

I thank you for your post because it's what God told me a couple weeks ago when I cried out to Him in agony--why, why God can't I overcome; HOW can I overcome. I felt drawn to the Word and I opened to David praising God with the words of his mouth. I had my answer. You know what you're talking about; I know the weakness of not being able to open my mouth to pray. I know you've been where I am and the Lord God had you post to tell me I can overcome.

I pray I will soon post a testimony to the overcoming power of God's own glory and grace in my life. Thank you for caring and taking time to give a testament to your brothers and sisters struggling for a way out of sin.

All glory, and honor and praise to the majesty of our God and King the Lord Jesus Christ.

[b]Listen to me saints[/b]: Any believer who is struggling over his sin and he is calling on the name of the LORD for help, IS STILL MY BROTHER!!
(above quote by Compliments)

Compliments::::: thank you !!!
That is what I have been believing here too...
Here4him is crying out to the Lord; is grieved to be grieving the Holy Spirit...that is what tells me he has a strong repentent heart and a loving heart toward the Lord...
He is, I believe, in a fight against a StrongHold...and yes...as far as fasting is concerned...they are effective when it is a Fast that is led by the Holy Spirit...
I have only Fasted when directed to; and those Fasts have been Victorious!!!
I know that Here4Him will be victorious because we are More than Conquerers, in all things thru Christ...(Romans 8:37)
And
Here4Him, it is good that you will take seriouslly Josef's words ...
we must always examine ourselves...
and
Do not give up...that is not an option !!! You obviously want to live a life pleasing to the Lord, you want to overcome in this area of your life...or else you would not be subjecting your self to everyone's input and counsel.
One Victory at a time...
everytime you turn from an opportunity of sin, you have resisted the devil...
and the Word is clear, we are to Submit ourselves to God, resist the devil and he will Flee!!!(James 4:7)

Having said this, I would like to point out that it says, "If a MAN be overtaken in a trespass" and it DOESN'T say, "If a BROTHER be overtaken in a trespass". Is it possible that Paul also knew that those who continue to willfully sin after receiving knowledge of the truth are in fact not true brothers at all?

That is irrelevant, the words are interchangeable.

[b]Gal 6:1 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault[/b],.... Or "be taken before" in one; not, as Grotius thinks, before this epistle should come to them, which is a very jejune and empty sense of the words; nor before the conversion of the man, because sins before conversion do not come under the notice and cognizance of a church, or are liable to its reproofs and censures; but before the man is aware, through negligence and imprudence, for want of caution and circumspection, and so is carried away, either through the treachery of his own heart, and the power of corruption; or through the temptations of Satan, who goes about, and comes on the back of them, lays snares for them, and attacks them unawares, and takes all advantages of them; or by the ill examples of others, whereby they are drawn aside, and into sin. The apostle has no particular respect by a "fault" to schisms in the church, or to any errors or heresies in doctrine, though the restoration of such in meekness should be endeavoured; but rather to immorality in life and conversation, and indeed to any of the works of the flesh mentioned in the preceding chapter; and especially he means any "fall" of professors, as the word used signifies, into sin, through inadvertency and want of care and watchfulness, in distinction from a wilful, obstinate, and continued course of sinning; and intends not any man in the world, for those that are without, churches and members of churches have nothing to do with in a church way; but any man that is a brother, a church member, that stands in such a relation to them, when he falls into sin, is to be taken notice of by them. And so the Syriac version reads, "any one of you"; as does one of Stephens's copies.

John Gill

What is more problematic is your urgency to judge with wrong judgment.

[b]Ye that are spiritual[/b]; meaning not such who had greater spiritual gifts than others, their ministers, pastors, and ecclesiastical governors, though these may be so called; and to them it belongs to reprove and rebuke, recover and restore backsliders, which they should do in gentleness and meekness; but the apostle here addresses the brethren in general, the several members of the church, even all but those that were fallen: nor does he mean such as have more spiritual knowledge than others, in opposition to babes; nor regenerate persons, and such as had the Spirit of God, in distinction from carnal men; but such as live and walk in the Spirit, and are strong, and stand by the power and grace of the Spirit of God, as opposed to the weak, and who were fallen through the prevalence of the flesh, and force of temptation; whose duty it is, and on whom it lies, to

[b]restore such an one[/b], that is overtaken and fallen. The allusion is to the setting of bones that are broken, or out of joint, which is done with great care and tenderness. Professors fallen into sin are like broken and dislocated bones; they are out of their place, and lose both their comfort and usefulness, and are to be restored by gently telling them of their faults, and mildly reproving them for them; and when sensible of them, and troubled for them, by speaking comfortably to them, and by bringing them again, and resettling them in their former place in the church, and restoring them to their former usefulness and good conduct: and which is to be done

[b]in the spirit of meekness[/b]: in the exercise of that grace which is a gift and fruit of the Spirit of God; or with a meek and humble spirit, not bearing hard upon them, and treating them in a supercilious and haughty manner, upbraiding them with their faults, aggravating them, and using them roughly, and with sharpness, which in some cases is necessary, but not in this:

[b]considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted[/b]: a spiritual man should consider himself as in the body, and as carrying about with him a body of sin, a corrupt and treacherous heart, that is full of deceitful lusts, by which he may be tempted also, and drawn away and enticed; and as being liable to the temptations of Satan, and of being overcome by; them, against which he should watch and pray; and should think with himself what he would choose, and should desire to be done to him in such a case, and do the like to others that are in it. This is a reason enforcing the exhortation; and indeed almost every word in the text carries an argument engaging to it. The relation the saints stand in to one another, as "brethren", should excite them to seek each other's welfare, and to restore any that are fallen, and to abstain from all roughness and severity. The persons addressed are "spiritual", and therefore should behave as such as have the fruits of the Spirit, and, among the rest that of meekness; and, since they are strong, should help the weak, and raise up the fallen: the persons recommended to them, as the objects of their pity, care, and concern, are not such who have given up themselves to sin, but are circumvented by it, and "overtaken" in it, suddenly, and at unawares. And besides, are men, frail sinful men, liable to sin, encompassed with infirmities, and exposed to snares and temptations, which are common to human nature, and therefore should be used gently and tenderly: The apostle having given an enumeration in the foregoing chapter, of the works of the flesh, and fruits of the Spirit, directs such as are in the exercise of the latter, how to behave towards those that fall into the commission of any of the former, which may be expected, since there is flesh as well as spirit in the best.

John Gill

[i]Psalm 40:12 "For innumerable evils have surrounded me; My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up; They are more than the hairs of my head; Therefore my heart fails me."[/i]

Can we use this scripture to justify sin in our own lives and quote it as a "proof-text" to try to persuade ourselves that God will overlook our transgressions against Him even though we continue to transgress?

Can you do likewise and use it in yet another context to indict the broken and contrite? You wish to take a heart cry and make a theological treaty out of it? Your heart is not right brother.

elected,

Thank you for this. Many of us have certainly been through some mighty battles striving against sin ...

Brother dont struggle with sin but look to Jesus no effort of your soul will get rid of your sin, look to the bleeding Saviour and offer him your 'black' heart and he will wash it and make it white. Look i say again His blood can redeem your soul and set you free, there is power in the blood of the Lamb.

Amen, there is real power in the blood of Jesus to deliver from sin. It's the devil that says you can't be free and we're not freed by trying harder or any of the disciplines, as important as they are. Jesus is the one who delivers and I can testify as to the efficacy of His precious blood in my own life.

Oh victory in Jesus, my Saviour forever,
He sought me and bought me,
With His redeeeming blood,
He love me ere I knew Him,
And all my love is due Him,
He plunged me to victory, beneath the cleansing flood...

Elected wrote:

Brother dont struggle with sin but look to Jesus no effort of your soul will get rid of your sin, look to the bleeding Saviour and offer him your 'black' heart and he will wash it and make it white. Look i say again His blood can redeem your soul and set you free, there is power in the blood of the Lamb.

Thank you for this encouragment, and thank you again to everyone for their input. Mike, thanks for the commentary on those verses i asked for.

I think a question is arising from all that has been said so far. I do agree totally that the Bible teaches that someone who is born again will not indefinately, consistently, habitually live in a sinful way of life and that the Bible does give stern warnings to those who are in sin. Being in sin is never a desirable place to be in- in fact it is the worst place in the world for a great host of reasons. But does this truth need to be balanced with the biblical truth of God's covenant love and faithfulness to His people. So if someone has truly repented and believed and been saved- God being the cause because of His eternal election love for that individual- and yet later falls or slides into sin and unfaithfulness, will God the great Heavenly Father give up on that person or want He rather more pursue that person in love and discipline to endeavour to bring them back into the fold.

The Bible does warn those who take sin lightly, i know and it does say that we have need of endurance and that those who endure to the end will be saved. But if a person has shown great evidence that he or she is born again and then slides into sin- does this disqualify them? Surely this is such a shakey foundation because then my salvation is purely dependant on my not sinning, and although we should be striving for holiness and desiring to turn from all sin, if we do sin, is not God greater than that?

Does not the Bible teach of a covenant keeping faithful God who will do anything to get his children back, a God who does not give up, a God who will not let go, a God of the second chance, a God who does not snuff out the spiritual life of a believer even though it may be as a smoldering wick or a bruised reed about to be snapped, a God who 'restores my soul', a God who 'heals your backslidings' a God who waits every day for the prodigal to return, longing to embrace him and celebrate with all of heaven over his return, God who though his wife is unfaithful and has committed harlotries with other lovers still pursues his unfaithful wife for a complete reconciliation with her?

The point i am making is that i am well aware of many 'professers' being deceived, i have preached that and believe we should examine ourselves, but is there not also a balance with the unfailing love and covenant keeping mercy and faithfulness of God who is portayed inall the ways o have mentioned to ensure that none of his children are lost to sin indefinately?

I think a question is arising from all that has been said so far. I do agree totally that the Bible teaches that someone who is born again will not indefinately, consistently, habitually live in a sinful way of life and that the Bible does give stern warnings to those who are in sin. Being in sin is never a desirable place to be in- in fact it is the worst place in the world for a great host of reasons. But does this truth need to be balanced with the biblical truth of God's covenant love and faithfulness to His people. So if someone has truly repented and believed and been saved- God being the cause because of His eternal election love for that individual- and yet later falls or slides into sin and unfaithfulness, will God the great Heavenly Father give up on that person or want He rather more pursue that person in love and discipline to endeavour to bring them back into the fold.

Indeed the balance and Compliments makes the very difficult point plain;

"If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father"

The problem with a great deal of this is to put the finish on before the conclusion, it is a form of extremism that often becomes this peculiar ... [i]trade off[/i] is the best way I could put it. If we err too much on the one particular aspect there is always those who with raised indignation will quickly come to smite the struggler and cajole everyone into the camp of 'compromise'. The other, opposite extreme is ... well precisely their point, that of abuse or abusing grace and the [i]fact[/i] of return upon repentance and the very forgiveness ... it is the very crucible of Paul's [i]God forbid![/i]

It happens here quite often that the launch is to futuristic hypotheticals, the problem is rarely do they proceed upon such proscribed lines. That is were a rush to judgment is not only highly suspect and dangerous, I believe it was precisely why we have been instructed not to do such. It is again hardly far from [i]not judging[/i] at all, it is in every way [i]judging with right judgment[/i] and that can entail many [i]facts[/i] that we are not privy to, without them we are on very unstable and shaky ground.

It is not as simple as it sounds but there is all the truth in he world codified in;

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The branch and the vine, the whole of abiding, in the 'constant'(continual) prayerful contact ... It is the only way.

We come right back to the [i]exceptions[/i] being the over emphasis, nonetheless they are there and they are there for a reason.

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Friends, i am the man who started this thread and has been struggling with sin and the flesh again and even living in defeat after Christ had for great periods led me in victory.

But friends, last night i saw something which to me in my struggle for victory was totally profound! I had had a hard day fighting against the strength of inner corruption and the flesh, i was despondent, down, depressed, pressed down under temptation and guilt. I was very much aware of my failings, very much aware of my sin, very much aware of my shortcomings and the wickedness of my sin. And yet my friends i was trying to get out of that pit, and yet i couldnt, why was that? Because i was trying to claw myself up by the ladder of legalism!

I would know what i was doing was wrong, my desires were sinful, i delighted in the law of God after the inward man and wanted to be free and tried to get free, i prayed, i wept, i confessed and would then go out and struggle and fail again. I was constantly aware of my failings and shortcomings and in a cycle of constant defeat.

And then something changed, last night as i was reading a book, actually a book on lust by Josh Harris 'Not even a hint', a good book, the Holy Spirit just whispered to me, to my soul, 'George, I love you'. I recognised it immediately as the voice of Jesus through His Spirit, but almost tried to dismiss it. It was as though i said in my heart, "Is that you Lord?, Lord im ok, im just reading my book looking for some good principles to get me out of this mess". Then i would read on, and all of a sudden the impression came again, 'George, I love you, I died for you'. I said, 'Lord is that really You? How can that be You? How can you say you love me when i am so aware of my sinfullness and my offences against You'. Then back came the impression of the Lord speaking to me saying, 'I know, you have sinnned, you have done wrong, but I love you, i am committed to you, i died for you, I love you George'. All of a sudden something broke in me, i just put my book down (with its principles) and fell to the floor and for the first time in days or weeks allowed myself to come under grace, and receive God's love!

Oh what strength it gave to my soul! Then it came to me that the reason i couldnt get free from the pit was because i was fighting sin with legalism (although i didnt know it).

For the first time in a long time i took my focus off my sin and put it on the Lord and on the cross of Jesus and saw Him bleeding and dying there for me, and taking away my sin. I saw the provision of God for my sin in the cross of Jesus. I was reminded of the Lord's love for me that even when i was His enemy Christ died for me, and i was reminded of the time when I had believed and turned from sin to God and when He had mercy on me for the first time. I was reminded of the change He had made in my life, i was reminded of the full payment Christ had made for my sins at Calvary. When i focused on my sins i though myself lost, but when i looked up to bleeding Saviour on the cross i though myself saved. And with the faith that God gave me i from that moment chose to believe that I am saved, because of Christ, i chose to believe that God does love me and is committed to me, in a marriage type relationship and that He loves me far more than all the people who love in the world put together.

This my friends brought liberty to my soul and in an instant i was lifted up out of the pit of despair on the wings of grace, where by my efforts to claw my way out under law i had so miserably failed.

For the first time in what seems like an age, joy filled my soul again, as i saw my salvation as finished and dependant not so much on me but on the One who has accomplished it in time!

Then the Holy Spirit somehow led me to the first half of Hebrews 10 and oh how He ministered to my soul the life giving grace of God and the new covenant!

Verse 1:
"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect"

Verse 10:
"By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Verse 14:
"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

And then the wonderful promised new Covenant which is ours in verse 15:

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Note that under grace, under the new covenant sin is taken away in Christ! It is done sinner, its is finished, just look to Christ and believe and let your heart be filled with joy and peace in believing!

Then in the light of this:

"brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus....let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

You see my sin, and the awareness of my sin was keeping me back from faith, it was keeping me back from really truly in my heart coming to Jesus, it was keeping me from the throne of grace, it was keeping me from the only source of life and victory. I was reminded of one of my favourite quotes from Mc'cheyne, "For every one look at your self, take ten looks at Christ".

Then this morning from no where the verse came into my head from Romans 6, "Sin shall not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace". I thought on that for a minute and for the first time in my life it really began to make sense, "Sin shall not have dominion over you"- Why Paul? "Because you are not under law but under grace".

In other words if you are under law, if you have slipped back into legalism- sin shall have dominion over you. And it shall have dominion over you until the moment you came out from law under grace. It is grace that liberates the true Christian. It is not to be used as an escuse to strengthen us in sin, but as the motivating force for leaving sin behind. Paul says, that sin shall not have dominion over you because you are under grace!

Lets remember it Christians, we are under grace!!! Christ is our righteousness, He has done everything, all we must do is focus on Him, on His death, His victory, His life, His high priestly ministry.

I will say it again,as i have again discovered so freshly- the only thing that will bring a struggling Christian out from the bondage of sin is a knowledge of the love and grace of God to him individually. Anything else is law and it is legalism, he will try and pull himself out of his sin to earn approval and to earn God's smile and fellowship again- wrong Christian- you already have it in Christ, stop moping in your sin- yes come with tears, come with confession, come with contririon over you sin, but then look ten times more to Jesus and the provision He has made for you at the cross otherwise defeat and despair will set in and you will come under law. Is that what Bunyun meant when he by the slough of desopnd?

Well if anyone is still with me at this point after my ramblings about my joy at the rediscovery of teh grace of God in my life then i hope you have been blessed and helped too!

For an introspective person like me it is very hard when you have fallen not to bring yourself under law. My tendancy is to thing i must punish myself for my sin, and try and earn Christ's love and acceptance again, when actually the truth is that if I am truly in Christ, I have God's love and acceptance whether i have had a great day or an awful day. God's love to His true children is unconditional, if He loved us while we were His sworn enemies, enough to die for us, how much more must he still love us now that we have trusted in and embraced His Son?

When the legalist galls into sin, he will think ' thats it, God's finished with me now, He dosnt love me anymore', but when or perhaps more rightly, 'if' a person under grace falls into sin, he will still be grieved because He has sinned against such great grace yet He must fight the fight of faith and choose to belive that God still loves him and wants him back. Right when we have failed the Lord again, Christ is there grieved yes, but lovingly longing for us, desperate to restore us to His fellowship and to His side.

Is not God's grace and Christ's love greater than our sin brethen? Am i encouraging sin? Certainly not, God forbid- is Christ the minister of sin- certainly not, i know He hates sin, but grace and faith in grace chooses to believe that though i have sinned terribly against God and though Christ does hate my sin, He does not hate me. He loves me and has died for me and is committed to me so i am going to run to Him with tears over my failure but put my faith in His blood and love and mercy for a full and speedy, instant restoration. If we fall, run to Jesus, beleive in His grace and love and get up! Legalism will keep you down or will lead you to introspection or despair and an inevitable fall around the corner which will lead you to more intropspection and despair and things will only get worse.

Oh grace is so wonderful! We Christians when most aware of our inner corruptions raging within us and even our failings and sin and wickedness must most meditate on the cross and the gospel of grace. We Christians must mediatate much on the sinfulness of sin, but we must meditate much more on the cross of Jesus Christ. There God has dealt with our sin once and for all. At the cross is a free and full pardon by the blood and even cleansing from the pollution of sin through that same blood! At the cross God has dealt with our flesh, with our sinful nature, crucifying it in Jesus, so that we must often meditate on this and reckon ourselves indeed to be dead unto sin but alive unto God through Christ Jesus our Lord!

And through meditating much in grace and the cross rather than grow sympathetic or soft toward sin we will grow in our hatred for it, for it was our sin that crucified the Lord of glory. It was my lust that nailed Him there. Oh, by looking much at the cross and the love and grace of God we will come to side with the God of love in His hatred against sin as we see what our sin did to His sinless Son.

So in conclusion (if anyone is still with me- at least i am still with me and rather enjoying this blessed thoughts!) i want to finish by sharing this though that hte Lord gave me just an hour or so ago driving in my car:

'The Law says "Thou shalt not, Thou shalt not.... but grace says "You dont have to"'.

I love that! We dont have to sin! Because we are not underlaw but under grace! Law and legalism only strengthens sin and stirs up the innner corruptions leading to more sin, but grace liberates and frees us to love and serve Jesus Christ, free from the alloy of sin! Blessed be His lovely Name! Amen!

Here4Him wrote:

And then something changed, last night as i was reading a book, actually a book on lust by Josh Harris 'Not even a hint', a good book, the Holy Spirit just whispered to me, to my soul, 'George, I love you'. I recognised it immediately as the voice of Jesus through His Spirit, but almost tried to dismiss it. It was as though i said in my heart, "Is that you Lord?, Lord im ok, im just reading my book looking for some good principles to get me out of this mess". Then i would read on, and all of a sudden the impression came again, 'George, I love you, I died for you'. I said, 'Lord is that really You? How can that be You? How can you say you love me when i am so aware of my sinfullness and my offences against You'. Then back came the impression of the Lord speaking to me saying, 'I know, you have sinnned, you have done wrong, but I love you, i am committed to you, i died for you, I love you George'. All of a sudden something broke in me, i just put my book down (with its principles) and fell to the floor and for the first time in days or weeks allowed myself to come under grace, and receive God's love!

For the first time in a long time i took my focus off my sin and put it on the Lord and on the cross of Jesus and saw Him bleeding and dying there for me, and taking away my sin.

George, I am broken up. What you have shared is so good! I am so happy for you! Unto Him be all praise and honour and glory! Hallelujah! He is so faithful. His love never faileth!

AD

Here4Him...
I am ecstatic with Praise and am Rejoicing over this Spirit inspired insight...and Freedom....

Oh the Faithfulness of God to walk you thru to His Truth,..oh the proof of His Love.

Thank you for sharing, and what you wrote was in NO way rambling. I read all the way thru it. It flowed with the Power of the Sprirt, and with Victory!!!!

I have noticed that sin sometimes creeps up on me and not until I am ready to turn from it[see it] do I know how much it had bound me in chains. Just yesterday I turned from a sin that I thought was ok, [the flesh being so deceitful]
And I cannot tell you how free and clean I felt.

Jesus is our life and victory over sin but sometimes we perfer our darkness, but when we turn in repentance, the pure joy of that liberty overcomes us and we realize once again that what seems good to the flesh is death to the christian. Thank God for his wonderful grace and for his truth.

I just want to share brethren with you something that God has really put on my heart these last few days as He has been leading me into wonderful grace and peace and victory and joy. Can i remind you that the secret in overcoming sin in our lives (as i know many of you already know) is to focus your attention not on your sin or your self or your temptation or you struggle but on your Saviour- the Lord Jesus Christ!

Meditate much on the gospel struggling believer and it will set your spirit free, i can assure you!

And meaty gospel hymns can be a great help for focusing our attention on Jesus and gospel truths. This is the hymn that God really used to bless me and point me to the Saviour:

Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea.
A great high Priest whose Name is Love
Who ever lives and pleads for me.
My name is graven on His hands,
My name is written on His heart.
I know that while in Heaven He stands
No tongue can bid me thence depart.

When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upward I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Savior died
My sinful soul is counted free.
For God the just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.

Behold Him there the risen Lamb,
My perfect spotless righteousness,
The great unchangeable I AM,
The King of glory and of grace,
One in Himself I cannot die.
My soul is purchased by His blood,
My life is hid with Christ on high,
With Christ my Savior and my God!

I love that HYMN !!!

"When satan tempts me to despair and tells me of my guilt within,
UPWARD I LOOK AND SEE HIS FACE who made an end of all my sin,"

how perfect for what has been shown to you by His Spirit!!!

I remember singing this hymn in church, when I was a little girl...
"Love Lifted Me..."
(you can google it on our new "google search engine" which I really like, thank you very much).

but here is a portion of the verse that echos what you are saying, Here4Him:

"Souls in danger, LOOK ABOVE, JESUS COMPLETELY SAVES.
He will lift you by His Love, out of the angry waves."

Wow...
Do we actually realize the POWER of LOVE??? The Power of the Love of God !!! It is unstoppable, completely focused on Its object of Love, and comes to rescue and save with deliberation, determination and no force in hell, can effectively interfere...Praise HIS NAME!!!!

Thank you Talkin2U and lightwalker and Here4Him, brothers, sisters oh the love of our Lord Jesus, how good He is. Here4Him As I read your entire post the love of the Spirit of God welled up in me confirming His Word in what you wrote, giving me hope that I shall overcome all sin. As I read everyone's posts, I witnessed the Spirit held our Lord Jesus up in His glory and majesty, His love flowing through all of us. Oh how He loves us.

I have been strengthened by everyone's posts and Here4Him do continue to journal your success in overcoming. I pray the Lord put His words that He gave you the other night foremost in your thoughts and your spirit to guard your walk, that His love carry all of us through to run the good and Godly race. I pray that for all of us seeking His face as we overcome by His favor and His love.

When I was a child my Grandmother often sang quietly to herself these chorus words "Victory in Jesus, my Saviour forever, well He sought me and He bought me with His redeeming blood. He loved me ere (I think this means before) I knew Him, and all my love is due Him--He plunged me to victory beneath the cleansing flood."

I looked up the verses just now and they are wonderful and strengthening so I'll post those also:

Title VICTORY IN JESUS by Eugene Bartlett 1885-1941

I heard an old, old story how a Saviour came from glory
How He gave His life on Calvary to save a wretch like me
I heard about His groaning, of His precious blood's atoning
Then I repented of my sins and won the victory

I head about his healing of His cleansing power revealing
How He made the lame to walk again and caused the blind to see
And then I cried Dear Jesus come and heal my broken spirit
And somehow Jesus came and brought to me the victory

I heard about a mansion He has built for me in glory
And I heard about the streets of gold beyond the crystal sea
About the angels singing and the old redemption story
And some sweet day I'll sing up there the song of victory.

God bless you all

That was always one of my favorites !!! Victory in Jesus !!!
Isn't it something how the words of these songs, come alive in our hearts as we walk thru situations?? Much as scripture does.

FreebyWord, I too was happy to see the love and support and Christian unity holding up Here4Him, thru out this post...

How encouraging for all of us!!!

The thing that to me was so precious about your experience, Here4Him, and the victory that came with it, was the Holy Spirit whispering into your heart, "George, I love you."

Is there anything can compare with this?

One "little" word like that in the power and gentleness of the Holy Spirit does what nothing else can do.

Vile as we are, He ministers a word of love, and our conscience is cleansed.

...May we be the same with one another. "...Having the same love" (Phil. 2.2).
And ministering the same Spirit.

AD

ADisciple wrote:
So, don't give up!

FreebyWord, I want to encourage you. After I read your post earlier, I started to pray for you, and just as I started to pray for you, the Presence of the Lord filled my heart! So I know by this that Jesus knows you, and wanted to get a message through to you: that He knows your struggle, loves you, cares for you, and is going to see you through to VICTORY!

Don't give up! "Behold, we count them happy which endure!"

AD

FreeByWord, I just want to make sure you caught this little word for you, which is from an earlier post. Maybe you missed it, it was at the bottom of a longer post I wrote. But when this happened, I felt it was the Lord really wanting you to know He knows YOU, and loves YOU.

AD

Yes, ADisciple, brother or sister thank you I did see that and the Holy Spirit Himself confirmed it yesterday morning as I prayed and meditated on His Word and as I wrote the post yesterday His love filled me to overflowing. Thank you for your very encouraging posts. Oh Father God we are so grateful that you are ever mindful of us.

I pray His peace, favor, and strenghening for everyone who accesses this forum. May the Lord Jesus Christ reign in your walks.

Here4Him I just now read closely the words of the hymn you posted and am so blessed by the witness of the words I printed them.

We have victory in and by and through our Lord Jesus: Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour (Strongs/Thayer--succour is: "run to them who cry unto Him for help") them that are tempted.

Here4Him and everyone who seeks to overcome, may we be encouraged by God's own Words.

[i][size=medium][color=CC9900]"He is able to run to them who cry unto Him for help"[/color][/size][/i]

Brothers and sisters, it is so wonderful to be in 'invisible community' with you all as we walk this path looking unto Jesus. I have been so blessed by you all and do not doubt that God has greatly used your prayers to restore my poor soul to the fellowship of Jesus Christ.

I was thinking on this and the verse from 1 John came to my mind- and i dont think we realise how powerful this is. It says:

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death." 1 John 5:16

Wow, do we realise what God says?!! That is we see a brother or sister sinning- backsliden, overcome by any sin, if we just interceed, and bring them before God and ask God in Jesus Name to restore that one to life- He has promised He will do it! Hallelujah!

It is my conviction that too many of us believers (myself included) see other Christians sinning and we will perhaps warn them (as we should), encourage them and exhort them (as we should) but all of that doesnt help nearly as much as if we come before the throne of grace and wrestle for that believer in prayer bleeding the blood of Jesus for that dear one- that will see them restored!!!

Oh truly those who are spiritual among us will do the latter without leavingthe former undone.

And 'FreebyWord', i am not the final authority on this matter of course but i do see if i see at all much of the life of the Spirit in you. Do press in my dear friend for the witness of the Spirit of God that you are His however, but i believe you are showing great signs of the new nature. And i just know that God's love will see you through to victory.

Have things been different for you these last few days as the Spirit has even used my poor post to point you to Jesus and the overflowing grace and love of God our Saviour which toward men has appeared. As you have been looking to the cross, reminded of the glorious liberty giving gospel and looking up to a living enthroned Jesus who is ever making intercession on your behalf, has your soul been set at liberty?

Have your inner corruptions subsided and has your heart been cheered by focusing your attention not on your sins, your temptation, your struggle but in Your mighty Redeemer?

I pray so. I am encouraged by the things you have been saying in your posts and i just know Christ is at work for you!

I have been reminded of another lovely hymn these past few days which as i think on it nearly brings tears to my eyes- Oh the love of God! Beyond telling! Beyond knowing! Oh what love!

"O Love that wilt not let me go,
I rest my weary soul in thee;
I give thee back the life I owe,
That in thine ocean depths its flow
May richer, fuller be.

O light that followest all my way,
I yield my flickering torch to thee;
My heart restores its borrowed ray,
That in thy sunshine’s blaze its day
May brighter, fairer be.

O Joy that seekest me through pain,
I cannot close my heart to thee;
I trace the rainbow through the rain,
And feel the promise is not vain,
That morn shall tearless be.

O Cross that liftest up my head,
I dare not ask to fly from thee;
I lay in dust life’s glory dead,
And from the ground there blossoms red
Life that shall endless be."

And i am also just reminded of this beautiful hymn on the love of Jesus:

"O the deep, deep love of Jesus, vast, unmeasured, boundless, free!
Rolling as a mighty ocean in its fullness over me!
Underneath me, all around me, is the current of Thy love
Leading onward, leading homeward to Thy glorious rest above!

O the deep, deep love of Jesus, spread His praise from shore to shore!
How He loveth, ever loveth, changeth never, nevermore!
How He watches o’er His loved ones, died to call them all His own;
How for them He intercedeth, watcheth o’er them from the throne!

O the deep, deep love of Jesus, love of every love the best!
’Tis an ocean full of blessing, ’tis a haven giving rest!
O the deep, deep love of Jesus, ’tis a heaven of heavens to me;
And it lifts me up to glory, for it lifts me up to Thee!"

Wow!!! I just wish i was with you all to sing this hymn together!!! One day saints!!!

'Talkn2u' I love that hymn you quoted- so wonderful- it has spoken much truth to my soul over the weekend- "when nothing else could help- love lifted me". What fear could not do, what dread could not do, love did! Praise God!!!

And 'FreebyWord' that hymn you quoted God had actually put on my spirit over the weekend before i reas your post! I was posted at an old pentecostal church in the north of england last year, and i learnt that one there! And oh what truth! O what victory in Jesus!

Brothers and sisters in our Lord, it is only by the favor and love of God that I found this site. The Spirit is moving powerfully through all of you. dorcas thank you sister for the suggested wonderful old hymns and Here4Him for your continued encouragement.

Some of you here know that the old hymns, some ancient, are precious treasures. I think of them as letters from our Godly fathers and mothers of the distant past. I often read and weep over the deep meaning of the words that testify of their struggles and how they overcame by Jesus' blood, the cross, His resurrection.

ADisciple, Talkin2U, Compliments--praise God for your witnesses of the Spirit in the forum as you encourage, strengthen, and build us up.

Yes Here4Him Jesus is my focus, and I gain some control over sin I've wrestled with for a long time. I will, I am overcoming the lusts of my flesh as I pray, seek, believe Jesus for deliverance. To all of you, I confess I covet your continued prayers and intercession as I do for all of you.

Lord Jesus we pray you give us the gift of repentance, absolute and final turning from all sin, in our lives that all of us overcome everything that separates us from the love of Christ.

After an on-waking vision I had two days ago of a rock filling the earth this scripture was on my heart all weekend and continues today--is our Lord soon to come?:

[i][b][color=CC9900]Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became [/color][/b][/i][u][i][b]a great mountain and filled the whole earth.[/b][/i][/u]

[size=x-small][color=000000]Yes dorcas, I pray all our walks be that of

1 Cor.10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Praise God dorcas for pointing out Deut. 32-33 which I read in its entirety and was blessed with God's own promises. During Passover this year I studied Exodus and found a wonderful blessing at Ex. 12:34, what I thought to be an allegorical reference to Jesus' covering in our lives, for those who have "His blood on the doorpost".[/color][/size]

[b][size=small][color=996600][font=Georgia]Exd 12:34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders. [/font][/color][/size][/b]

[size=x-small][color=000000]Today dorcas I discovered the same blessing spoken by Moses in scripture you referenced.[/color][/size]

[b][size=small][color=996600][font=Georgia]Deu 33:12 ¶ [And] of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; [and the LORD] shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders. [/font][/color][/size][/b]

[size=x-small][color=000000]Here4Him I thank you for the hymns you last posted to the forum, I am blessed abundantly by the words. God bless you all[/color][/size]

FreebyWord,
Thanks for sharing that dream you had just as you woke up! I found that encouraging!

And I'm glad you are encouraged, too. It's been so good to see the different ones sharing here... a scripture, a song, a word of encouragement... lifting up the hands that hang down.

That's the growing Rock. The Kingdom of God. Righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. It will yet fill the whole earth.

The Stone smote the image back there on the Cross. We don't see the fulness of it yet. But we will yet see all the kingdoms of this world brought to nought by that Cross, and blown away "like the chaff of the summer threshing floor." And that Stone that smote the image grows till He becomes a great Mountain and fills the whole earth! How good (and how humbling) to be part of such an awesome thing!

Thank you, Jesus!

AD

I would so like your comments on the following scripture that addresses taking the Kingdom by force (in overcoming)--I ask this of any who post to this thread as all of you have blessed me abundantly with your Godly wisdom. I believe it's not coincidence the Lord has laid this on my heart without ceasing over the past ten days as the thread discusses, and some of us strive, to overcome all that is not of Him.

[i][size=small][color=996600][font=Georgia]Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.[/font][/color][/size][/i]

[i][size=small][color=996600][font=Georgia]Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. [/font][/color][/size][/i]

Following are Strong's/Thayer's concordant post for the violent and violence in the two scriptures above:

[size=small][font=Georgia]The Violent: are Strong, Forceful using Force by whom the kingdom of God i.e., who strive to obtain its privileges with utmost eagerness and effort.[/font][/size]

[size=small][font=Georgia]Violence: to use force, to apply force, to force, inflict violence on, one; the Act.--the kingdom of heaven is taken by violence, carried by storm, i.e., a share in the heavenly kingdom is sought for with the most ardent zeal and intensest exertion. To gain a share in the Kingdom of God by the utmost earnestness and effort.[/font][/size]

Matthew Henry Commentary on the two scriptures above, briefly summarized here, states:

[i][size=small][font=Georgia] This violence denotes a [b][u]strength, and vigour[/b][/u], and [b][u]earnestness of desire and endeavour,[/b][/u] in those who followed John’s ministry, else they would not have come so far to attend upon it. It shows us also, what [b][u]fervency and zeal[/b][/u] are [b][u]required[/b][/u] of all those who design to make heaven of their religion.

Note, They who would enter into the kingdom of heaven must [b][u]strive to enter;[/b][/u] that kingdom suffers a holy violence; [b][u]self must be denied,[/b][/u] the bent and bias, the frame and temper, of [b][u]the mind must be altered[/b][/u]; there are [b][u]hard sufferings to be undergone,[/b][/u] a force to be put [b][u]upon the corrupt nature;[/b][/u] we must [b][u]run,[/b][/u] and [b][u]wrestle,[/b][/u] and [b][u]fight,[/b][/u] and [b][u]be in an agony,[/b][/u] and all little enough [b][u]to win such a prize,[/b][/u] and [b][u]to get over such opposition[/b][/u] [b][u]from without and from within.[/b][/u]

[b]The violent take it by force. They who will have an interest in the great salvation are carried out towards it with a strong desire, will have it upon any terms, and not think them hard, nor quit their hold without a blessing, (my note to thread: As Jacob would not let go (ie., forceful, violent, pressing in) until God blessed him) Gen. 32:26. They who will make their calling and election sure must give diligence. The kingdom of heaven was never intended to indulge the ease of triflers, but to be the rest of them that labour.

It is a blessed sight; Oh that we could see a greater number, not with an angry contention thrusting others out of the kingdom of heaven, but with a holy contention thrusting themselves into it! [/font][/size][/i]

Blessings Brothers and Sisters[/b]

FreebyWord,

Sorry for the long delay in responding to your post. Perhaps others, too, have not got back to you simply because they feel the explanation you yourself have given is very satisfactory.

The sources you have quoted qualify the word "violent," (fervently pressing in, etc.) and that's the way, I think, it must be taken.

For certainly Jesus could not be condoning carnal violence as an acceptable way to "take the Kingdom," especially since He Himself took it in exactly the opposite way: as a Lamb.

How can it be said that He, who showed us the "key" to entering the Kingdom by dying on the Cross... how can it be said that He took it by violence?

In fact, Paul tells us, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, But made Himself of no reputation (He emptied Himself), and took upon Him the form of a servant (bondslave) and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. WHEREFORE God also hath highly exalted Him..." (Phil. 2. 5-9).

In the original of above passage, the word "thought it not robbery" means "to take or hold by force," and is from the same root as the word in Matthew 11.12, "take it by force." So Christ Jesus thought it not a thing to be taken or held by force to be equal with God, but divested Himself of all that, emptied Himself, humbled Himself, was made in the likeness of men, going lower, still lower, still lower, taking upon Him the form of a slave, and then submitting unto the Father in obedience unto death: and that death not a noble heroic death, but a despised and (for Him) unjust death: a criminal's death: even death on a cross.

That's the way into the Kingdom. By following Him. He gave us an example that we should follow in His steps (1 Pet. 2.21).

"These (overcomers) are they who follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" (Rev. 14.4).

...So I think it very important to see the words in Matthew 11.12 and Luke 16.16-- words about "violence," and "force"-- through this other lens, if I can put it that way.

Yes, we must be fervent and all-out, pressing toward the mark, but sometimes you hear a person boldly boasting how they're going to "take the kingdom by force, Hallelujah, Amen," and, well, you sigh inwardly, and say a prayer for them. You know they've got some lessons to learn.

AD

The Violent take it by Force:
to me it says, that with the same persistence that the enemy is attempting to defeat us, we are to Stand in the Power of God, and upon His Word with every bit as much determination to overcome what is being thrown our way...

We are More than Conquerers and we are Overcomers...so therefore whatever the measure of violence comes against us, we will fight violently back, in the Spirit of the Almighty God...who has promised to put our enemies beneathe our feet....

Praise His Holy Name!!!!

[size=small][color=CC6600][font=Georgia]

6. However, it is evident that even the elect of God, the true saint, may at some time stumble and fall. But, he will immediately abhor and hate himself for it, repent, and seek God's forgiveness, [b][u]persevering with all his heart[/b][/u] until God gives him assurance of sins forgiven. This is a wonderful promise of mercy to the one who is stumbling.

[size=small][color=CC6600][font=Georgia]Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand** against the wiles of the devil. [/font][/color][/size]

[size=small][color=CC6600][font=Georgia]Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand**. [/font][/color][/size]

[size=small][color=000000][font=Georgia]
**to STAND: (lexicon Greek/Hebrew definitions)
to make firm, fix, establish
to keep place
to cause one to make his appearance faultless (Jude 24)
to designate a place for one to occupy
to place one's self, to stand
to make firm, fix, establish
to establish a thing, cause it to stand, i.e.,
to uphold or sustain the authority or force of any thing
to stand ready, prepared, immovable, firm
to hold position in the midst of the fight against the enemy
to persist, continue, persevere (so as not to fall from thy faith)[/font][/color][/size][size=small][color=000000][font=Georgia]to make firm, fix, establish[/font][/color][/size]

ADisciple thank you for your comments that further expound on your understanding of what it means to take the Kingdom by force.

Talkn2U I was so strengthened, so blessed by what you wrote I pray it lifts others. Your words are so encouraging they bear repeating here: [i][b]"with the same [u]persistence[/u] that the enemy is attempting to defeat us, we are to [u]Stand in the Power of God[/u], and [u]upon His Word[/u] with every bit as much [u]determination to overcome[/u] what is being thrown our way...

We are [u]More than Conquerers[/u] and we are Overcomers...so therefore whatever the measure of violence comes against us, we will [u]fight[/u] violently back, [u]in the Spirit of the Almighty God[/u]...[u]who has promised to put our enemies beneathe our feet[/u]....."[/i][/b]

Tozer wrote: "Praying Till We PRAY" (Take the Kingdom by force i.e., overcome through prayer that storms the Kingdom of heaven until we have heard from God Himself)

[b][i]Dr. Moody Stuart, a great praying man of a past generation, once drew up a set of rules to guide him in his prayers. Among these rules is this one: "Pray till you pray." The difference between praying till you quit and praying till you pray is illustrated by the American evangelist John Wesley Lee. He often likened a eason of prayer to a church service, and insisted that many of us close the meeting before the service is over. He confessed that once he arose too soon from a prayer session and started down the street to take care of some pressing business. He had only gone a short distance when an inner voice reproached him. "Son," the voice seemed to say, "did you not pronounce the benediction before the meeting was ended?" He understood, and at once hurried back to the place of prayer where he tarried till the burden lifted and the blessing came down.

The habit of breaking off our prayers before we have truly prayed is as common as it is unfortunate. Often the last ten minutes may mean more to us than the first half hour, because we must spend a long time getting into the proper mood to pray effectively. We may need to struggle with our thoughts to draw them in from where they have been scattered through the multitude of distractions that result from the task of living in a disordered world.

Here, as elsewhere in spiritual matters, we must be sure to distinguish the ideal from the real. Ideally we should be living moment-by-moment in a state of such perfect union with God that no special preparation is necessary. But actually there are few who can honestly say that this is their experience. Candor will compel most of us to admit that we often experience a struggle before we can escape from the emotional alienation and sense of unreality that sometimes settle over us as a sort of prevailing mood.

Whatever a dreamy idealism may say, we are forced to deal with things down on the level of practical reality. If when we come to prayer our hearts feel dull and unspiritual, we should not try to argue ourselves out of it. Rather, we should admit it frankly and pray our way
through. Some Christians smile at the thought of "praying through," but something of the same idea is found in the writings of practically every great praying saint from Daniel to the present day. We cannot afford to stop praying till we have actually prayed.[/b][/i]

I would like to read even more on this, from anyone who would take the time, of what practical measures may we take to stand, to persevere, to overcome.