Together but not Legally Married

This is the situation:
There are two people, a man and a women with two children who are not legally married.
They had a very difficult life, the husband didn't want to work or couldn't work because he would buy alcohol and drink it. He wasn't able to keep a job.
The women come to the Lord and the brothers advised her to tell him that they should marry legally.
He didn't want to hear about this.
We have just prayed for this situation for a long time because we didn't know how to proceed.
Should we tell her to separate from him? Should we consider them as husband and wife?
It's a difficult situation. I don't see them as married and I think that they should separate but there are other brothers who consider them as married because they lived together such a long time.
I wonder if the Word of God speaks about such a situation... I wonder what is on God's heart...

I believe, before we go any further in this discussion, and instead of being pragmatic and using human reasoning, that we go directly to scripture, and see what God Himself says on the matter.

Gen 2v24, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.'

Is she his wife? I'll leave you to answer that one.

1 Cor 6v16, 'Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For the two He says, shall become one flesh.'

Since they are not married, and she has supposedly come to the Lord, who does she now belong to, God, or her lover?

They are living in sin, and are condemned until the situation is resolved.

As we continue to read 1 Cor 6 it says to flee sexual immorality, and that we are bought with a price and are not our own.

How then, after coming to the Lord, has she continued to live such a life?

As for the children, what good is a father that is too drunk to give them a decent home anyhow?

And since when, do brothers and sisters opinion of seeing them as married, mean that they are married? Does God see them as married, or does it not matter what God sees?

Let us be careful of putting our opinions above the word of God.

The only reason they should be together is if they are not saved, which neither of them seem to be if they still continue in the same lifestyle as before they supposedly came to the Lord.

All I know is, God judges us, and His word is clear as to whether we will end up in hell for our sins.

And we will, if we do not genuinly repent and obey God, instead of creating our own doctrine.

Others will add to this, I've said my bit.

God bless.

Have they considered just going to the justice of the peace, say a couple of words, sign a document and their done.

She considered, he did not want to consider.

if they still continue in the same lifestyle as before they supposedly came to the Lord.

Read carefully please, I have written that only the woman came to the Lord.

For the sake of the children of having a Mommy and Daddy to come home to, don't tell them that they need to separate.

God's grace is more than sufficient for a mother and her children when the children are without a dad because of obediance to God. God is love and mercy but He wont just wink at a sinful situation even if "the children need a mommy and a daddy to come home to!" Think of the childrens' eternal souls. Are they more likely to come to God later in life with an uncomrpomising mother or with a drunk father? That shouldn't be hard for anyone to answer that's honest with themselves and God.

Vasilef,

Read carefully, was only generalising in regards to their situation or anyone else in that situation. That's all.

God bless.

Enid, I understand now.

(for all) Why would you say that their situation is unscriptural?
Maybe it is, buy it is also unusual.
Does a piece of paper make you wife and husband?

Vasilef,

You asked if a piece of paper makes them husband and wife?

What piece of paper did Adam and Eve have?

Were they or were they not husband and wife?

Please, show us some scripture to show that living together in an unmarried state is approved by God.

God bless.

Hello Vasilef,

I am not aware of the laws of Romania concerning marriage. In many states within the United States, a couple that has cohabitated for such a long time (and presented themselves to the world as such) would be considered a "common law" marriage. They would be entitled to all of the "legal" discriptions of a marriage because of the length of the cohabitation. If I remember correctly, the term "common law marriage" differs quite a bit in Europe than in the United States. In essence, such a marriage in the United States is a marriage established on the principle of "habit." No wedding is necessary for the marriage to be legal. In fact, most states do not even require a "divorce" for such a marriage. It is simply a reference by the state to identify relationships that the state deems a "marriage." However, in some states (like Texas), an individual may still be required to obtain a certificate of "divorce" from a common law marriage -- even when no certificate of marriage exists! This is to prevent couples from misusing legal protections, forcing them to identify with a single legal communion.

I want to point out that there are historic references to Christian marriages that were not recognized by the Government. During the many religous conflicts in Europe over the past millenium, there have been instances where the official Church of the State would not recognize the marriages of true believers. This was done to embarrass couples "into the fold" of the official Church -- or entire ethnic or geographic provinces into submission to the State. Often, a "secret marriage" was performed to create a marriage covenant. While the official Church and the State did not respect such unions, it was viewed as valid by those believers (and rightfully so, I believe).

I am very cautious about offering advice in this case. Is a couple that lives as a married couple for such a long period of time considered legally married in Romania? Is a couple legally married only if they obtain a signed copy of a marriage license by the State? If there is no legal basis for a "marriage" to exist -- then it appears that they are merely living together. If that is the case, and if this was a sister, I would probably counsel her to leave this man.

Regardless, I will be praying for this situation and for this couple. May the Lord give you the wisdom beyond wisdom to share!

:-)

Gen 2v24, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.'

Is she his wife? I'll leave you to answer that one.

I've seen the question of "what makes a marriage a "marriage?" discussed on other message boards, but have yet to see it here. What makes it a marriage? Is all that is required is that they leave and cleave together?

I can take you all the way back to the OT Law and show you that marriage was not only a commitment between man, woman & God... but it was also a legal contract. But is it really neccessary that we do that? If you want to make excuses and try to legitimize sin, there are plenty of ways to do that too.

I would like to see what you have to say on the issue if you have time, brother. Or anyone else for that matter.

I'm a firm believer in having a ceremony... just wanting to make that clear.

Does a piece of paper make you wife and husband?

There are all kinds serious issues to consider in these cases – that won’t magically get cleared up with some gov’t papers. Far too often we Christians leave people in horrible dilemmas. No matter which they turn they are stuck in “sin” - and we don’t lift a finger to get them out their hellhole of guilt. In that respect, we are no different than the Pharisees.

Consider women like this dear lady (and there are many in her situation) She wants to get married “legally”, and hears voices from the religious community that she is no different than prostitutes – an evil sinner. If she listens to “our” advice and coerces her husband into getting a civil ceremony (maybe bribing him with tears, or threats of abandonment), she ends up violating all kinds of scriptures. Her guilt may be absolved, but she has merely usurped authority and control over her husband. If she “wins” she has merely reinforced that role. Ahhh, you may say, – but she is legally married!!!

If she leaves her “husband’ in order to escape her “sin” or comply with her religious piers, she is committing all kinds of other sins. Indeed, she is NOT more right with God! Think of her responsibilities: her kids. Let’s face it, kids don’t care about legal documents in a drawer. Their stability rests on the security provided by their caregivers: Mom AND Dad. It is well documented that the most traumatic pain a child endures is the separation of their parents. Their entire world is torn apart – no matter how much adults try to “explain” the need of it. Just listen to the countless testimonies of adults who still suffer the repercussions of divorce (separation).

We in the Christian community idolize commitments: we are eager for people to “come forward”, to ‘commit their hearts to the Lord’, etc. We like good intentions. We like vows. We even rest people's salvation on them. It gives some assurance, I guess, but to God vows mean very little.

“And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” Matt 5: 36, 37

Here is a question to consider:
In the end whom is God most pleased with: Those who said “yes” and then didn’t obey or those who said “no” and then DID obey.

This life-narrative isn’t finished yet. God takes an entire lifetime to work in lives, and we’d do best working with HIM rather than trying to play God in people’s lives.

Would it be a sin if this family's loved ones and Christian friends acknowleged the relationship as a marriage (which is how it is functioning), or is the gov't only entitled to that role?

Diane

The woman should stay in the home.

Her presence in the home as a godly woman will do more to convict the man than her leaving would. Let her turn to the Lord with her whole heart: the love and commitment that shine forth from her life will eventually win over her "husband."

If there were no children involved here, I think, yes, she could take a stand and leave. But as there are children involved, she should continue in the relationship for the children's sake. When children are involved, the sword that cuts a marriage in half (whether common-law or documented) cuts the children in half, too. And they will bleed over it for a long, long time, likely for the rest of their lives.

As to the comment that she couldn't in good conscience marry him anyway since he is an unbeliever (even if he consented), this in my estimation doesn't get it right. If the man was pleased to do that, even though an unbeliever, it would be the right thing to do, again, because of the children.

These painful and complicated situations can't be all treated in a cut and dried manner. There needs to be wisdom and grace in the Church for people who have made bad decisions, living in sin, and later repent and turn to the Lord.

By way of illustration, in the early church there were converts who had more than one wife. What did the apostles counsel them? Even though it is the will of God and has been from the beginning that a man have one wife, the apostles counselled that these families should not be torn apart. It would have been cruel for a man to ditch one of his wives and her children. The only stipulation the apostles laid down was that the man could not be made an elder of the church. (See 1 Tim. 3.2.)

Likewise we in our day need the same wisdom and grace and sensitivity to deal with difficult problems like the one involving this couple.

The woman in this case, I think, should pray something along this line (she has probably already done so): Lord Jesus, thank you for your infinite grace and forgiveness in receiving me into Your fold. I'm sorry, Lord, for the bad decisions I made. Forgive me, Lord... and You see how complicated this situation is now. I love my "husband," forgive us, Lord. and I love my children and don't want to see their lives torn apart. Forgive us, Lord. I commit this whole situation to You....

...My counsel. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses..." I pray you are able to get the witness of the Spirit in this difficult matter.

AD

Are you being a bit defensive, Krispy, in weighing the counsel of others as only worth about two cents? :)

I, for one, try to consider carefully before the Lord what I put forth, far from just "throwing it in."

As far as using what I and others have said as an excuse to continue living a sinful lifestyle, the woman in this case has sought to do that, and has turned to the Lord. But there is a serious complication. The children.

But maybe there are further things that need to be asked.

Is the man still an alcoholic? Is he abusive? To the wife, to the children?

And how old are the children? It sounds like this has been a long-term relationship; maybe the children are older and are themselves near the age of leaving the home?

Or if he is an abusive husband, if the children live in fear, then that changes the picture. Under such circumstances, the woman should leave.
But if he is more or less a good dad, and the children love him, and he loves the children, she should stay.

AD

I agree with Krispy, this thread is insane.
The scripture is explicit on what to do in this situation.
Those who say the woman should stay with the man need to repent of such ungodly advice.

Are you being a bit defensive, Krispy, in weighing the counsel of others as only worth about two cents? :)

He isn't being defensive, he's merely flabbergasted at the completely unbiblical advice being given!!!

MAR'RIAGE, n. [L.mas, maris.] The act of uniting a man and woman for life; wedlock; the legal union of a man and woman for life. Marriage is a contract both civil and religious, by which the parties engage to live together in mutual affection and fidelity, till death shall separate them. Marriage was instituted by God himself for the purpose of preventing the promiscuous intercourse of the sexes, for promoting domestic felicity,and for securing the maintenance and education of children.[url=http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,marriage]Websters 1828[/url]

Marriage is a lifelong commitment, made before witnesses and God. This couple seems to have never gone before men and God to proclaim their commitment. They are in no way a representation of Christ and the Church, nor does it seem that their initial coming together was intended to be.

I will pray for those in this situation. Obedience is impossible without faith, and faith comes by hearing the voice of the Spirit in the word. Get this woman in the word or it is very unlikely she will obey.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I have had experience with these situations, I doubt that you have.

Krispy

I don't know why you would assume that. If I hadn't had some experience in "these situations," I would not have entered this thread.

I do have some experience with "situations" like this. And some wounds, and scars, too, because of it.

I know personally some little children who are growing up without their dad. In part because of counsel I gave, in fact. I'm still torn over it. Did I counsel aright? Was that really God's own counsel I gave? And now it's a broken home. Sometimes I lie awake at night, going over it all one more time.

It is one of the most gut-wrenching things in our world today. I bleed for these kids. I have tears in my eyes right now. I'll tell you, they would do anything, give anything, to have their daddy back with them. They are growing up emotional cripples because of this. Maybe if we had just been more patient...

We are so quick to just "go by the book" without earnestly searching out God's heart in the matter. What kind of impression of a cold-hearted God does that leave with the victims of such a break up?

The Book says thus and so! But what about God's longsuffering, and patience, and forbearance, and mercy? That is also in The Book.

The advice I gave here is not unscriptural. It is very scriptural to seek counsel and enquire "of Urim and Thummim" before the Lord about such things. And of course, what counsel the Spirit of God gives, will always be found to line up with The Book, which maybe we had not understood clearly in the first place.

There's probably no way to count any more the family problems in our world today, because the foundations of the family have been so badly eroded. To sort them all out is going to take more than a check-the-rule-book answer; these are complicated problems; they need to be dealt with individually with the Holy Spirit's clear witness and input. The advice I gave was not intended to disregard the foundations by any stretch, but to deal expediently with a difficult, complex problem. And The Book (which I love very deeply) does not always present a clear what-to-do answer for such cases.

I have given my witness on this. I stand by it. I do recognize I am only one witness. The brethren who are first-hand to this situation, and know the pulse of it, need to come to agreement on it, and thereby have the witness of the Spirit. Personally, I think it's only the brethren there, the family of God right there in that situation, who can do that adequately. There are so many factors in the situation that we at a distance can't guage.

I would give one word of caution, though. If the woman does decide to leave, ultimately it should be her own, and not the church brethren's decision. That gets to be dangerous territory. Counsel, advise, help her to hear the Voice of the Lord for herself. And then, let the peace of God preside in her heart and conscience over the decision she herself makes, whether to go or to remain.

...As to your comment that you love and appreciate me in spite of my being (from your perspective) wrong, I was glad to hear that, Krispy, and I extend that same regard to you, too. Sometimes people feel very strongly about things. I've been touched very deeply, very personally, by the kind of thing being discussed here. I have very strong feelings about it. How great a need we all have to get so close to Jesus that we feel as He Himself feels, and are all of one mind on even the most difficult problems we face.

AD

If there were no children involved here, I think, yes, she could take a stand and leave. But as there are children involved, she should continue in the relationship for the children's sake.

I guess I don't understand why the childrens' presence in the home determines whether or not it truly is a marriage. How can we look at a situation and say that if they didn't have children then they wouldn't be married but since they do have children then it is a marriage. God doesn't leave it up to us to make exceptions to the rule even for the sake of being merciful to the children.

"And everyone that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." Matthew 19:29

There are almost always repercussions because of the sin we lived in before we were born again. You can't get around that. When a person has smoked their whole life and is dying at 55 from lung cancer does God suddenly heal them after they get born again on their death-bed? If she never got born again would you have ever thought to even consider it a marriage? Dear fellow believers, this is [b]EXTREMELY [/b] dangerous ground.

Compliments, you're a saint. Your humility is [b]really[/b] a blessing. And let me say to all others that read this, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not a hard hearted, unmerciful person. I feel for the children as much as anyone, but I'd rather see them in heaven because they had a mother that would do the right thing at all cost even to the point of forsaking the man she loved for Christ's sake, and not see them with the same compromising "christianity" that permiates our godless country.

Thank you for all who shared their advice, good or wrong. I'm just a young married man who is very involved in this situation I've just described.
I've explained very briefly the situation. Actually it is much more complicated and I don't have such a great life experience and spiritual insight.
That's why I ask these questions... In fact, not all the questions I've asked are my questions.
Others asked me these questions and I had to think about them. (eg. that one with the piece of paper).
Some questions raised here so I'll try to give some more explanation:

How then, after coming to the Lord, has she continued to live such a life?

I have my opinion but the advice of the elders of the church have more weight than mine. They advised her that she should live a godly life, submit her husband in the Lord and the Lord will work in his heart.

As for the children, what good is a father that is too drunk to give them a decent home anyhow?

Generally speaking, I don't know what good is a father that is drunk but this is not an excuse for divorce.

What piece of paper did Adam and Eve have?

They didn't have and they were husband and wife.
I speak in human terms... so why should we need it?

I only think that this example don't justify what you've written below:

Please, show us some scripture to show that living together in an unmarried state is approved by God.

I can take you all the way back to the OT Law and show you that marriage was not only a commitment between man, woman & God... but it was also a legal contract. But is it really neccessary that we do that?

I'll send you a PM with my email address. I'm really interested about this if you have such a study or article which could be sent by email (or even by mail to an US address).

Is a couple that lives as a married couple for such a long period of time considered legally married in Romania?

I'm not very sure but I doubt they are considered legally married if they live together for a long time.

Sorry for my 3 posts. I should have written all in one post.

Vasilef said,

they advised her that she should live a godly life, submit her husband in the Lord and the Lord will work in his heart.

Vasilef, I wonder if your best gift to the family at this time would be to encourage the mom to quietly rest in God, seek him, and learn to recognize HIS voice. After all, she is accountable to him above anyone else.

obediance to God.

Just imagine if the church advised the mother to split up this family. Would the church take the mother and children into its custody? Would it provide a home for her, give financial support? Would it provide a surrogate father? Also, would the father be drawn towards Christ as a result, or would he be embittered against the church? Would the children ever be able to trust their daddy again (or God)?

When we put man’s laws higher than God’s, we can actually, inadvertently become a tool for the devil - who seeks to destroy people.

Diane

Dear christians my question is this.
Suppose next month the drunk "husband" decides to leave and feels that he would have that freedom since they have never actually been married. He obviously doesn't see it as a marriage because he doesn't want to "make it official." He wants the freedom to call it quits when he gets the whim. So he leaves. Have the rules changed now? Are we going to say "oh, now you can go find a godly husband 'cause you were never actually married before." or are we going to say "I'm so sorry dear, but you have to spend the rest of your life as a single mom 'cause it would be adultry to marry another man."
People are saying things here that completely liquify God's moral laws and allow us to make them fit "our situation". The way things are being said here things are left so open ended that we could up and change the rules at the smallest turn of events. That's a frightening though.

Nile wrote:

I agree with Krispy, this thread is insane.The scripture is explicit on what to do in this situation. Those who say the woman should stay with the man need to repent of such ungodly advice.

AMEN!

I will go futher, I am shocked at the approach some on this forum take to this issue No, I am upset and grieved! Lord! have mercy!

ginnyrose

Vasilef, I wonder if your best gift to the family at this time would be to encourage the mom to quietly rest in God, seek him, and learn to recognize HIS voice. After all, she is accountable to him above anyone else.

I've never seen them as wife and husband whatever the elders said but I didn't make much noise as to rebuke them. I pray for them as often as I can and we help them whenever possible.
But as you said, she is accountable to HIM above anyone else, including me.
I only realize that I can be carried away in my advises by emotions.
Bless you!

PS. I deleted some of the message because I felt it was too personal.

running2win,

You have posted the truth concerning this situation. It is as though certain 'Christians' want to liquify God's law to suit this situation.

They act as though they have more compassion than God Himself, and would never, never, never condemn anyone, even though God does condemn those who are not in Christ Jesus, Romans 8v1.

The reason why they leave their replies so open ended is because they are emotional people, almost humanistic in their approach to God's law and would redefine most of the Bible if they could.

Romans 1v32 says 'who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them'.

Even if some approve of the perverted lifestyle of these people, God does not, and they are both condemned by God until some true repentance is shown.

I asked for someone to show me a scripture that shows that God approves of living in sin.

So far, no takers.

God bless

Krispy wrote:

She needs to move out. She should not marry him until such time as they can do so without being unequally yoked.

This is the position Christians in third world countries have taken to this issue. I have seen, heard stories of couples where BOTH had come to the LORD, had a marriage ceremony. This is a standard procedure in dealing with this issue. It works BECAUSE IT IS SCRIPTURAL!

I am also told that shacking is very common among "Christians" in Europe. It is not considered wrong.

My DH's cousin told us how his daughter wanted to go to Holland to do short term missionary work at a coffeee shop, I think. Anyhow, the director was a local, member of a church, and he was shacking (to you foreigners this means living together without being married). Since this ministry was being takien over by an American mission board, they required the man to get married, which he did. This story proves the point that the concept of marriage was alive in their culture: they just did not do it.

You can haggle with all the human reasoning you can...until doomsday, if you will, it will not change God's will on this matter. Fornication is fornication whether done in Romania, Haiti, the USA, Canada, Russia in 2007 or 1902, or 258, 1578, or....Fornicating long term will not legitimatize it into marriage. If it will then there would be no sin of fornication. This question gets stupider by the minute. When we rationalize the word of God you always get into trouble. Like now.

I will sign off, I am so upset...

ginnyrose

Are you and the elders married by a legal document that is filed with the state

A friendly reminder to responders that this man does not want to marry this woman. That means they are not married, no matter how long they've lived together.

vasilef wrote:
I have my opinion but the advice of the elders of the church have more weight than mine. They advised her that she should live a godly life, submit her husband in the Lord and the Lord will work in his heart.

[

Krispy, I do accept your apology for assuming I have no experience in this thing. (Haven't figured out yet how to pull up quotes from different posts and include them in one response, or I would quote your words here. But thank you. I realize it's not an apology for your stand.

This is obviously a very emotionally charged issue. I'm troubled that some of the posters assume (because of the advice I gave) that I am all for worldliness creeping into the church. Far from it. But this is one of the difficulties, I find, with these forums. There end up being communication problems. We don't see one another face to face, don't know one another, don't know each one's history with God.

I'm no advocate for "shacking up," and have spoken strongly against it. The fact remains, people do end up shacking up. Nothing I said can be construed as opening the door of acceptance for this kind of thing by the people "out there" who might be emboldened by what they read on this thread.

This is a case where two sinners shacked up. Along came children. Then, one of the sinners turned to the Lord. Solomon, what do we do now? Cut the union in half? And the children with it?

...No, this is a call for grace and patience and a lot of hands-on loving input by the local church.

...Not to get into it all again.

Anyway, I think I will just walk softly here, and leave this with the elders of the church there, who we are told have been praying about this for some time, and apparently have come (as shown in the above quote) to a consensus. That is most likely-- assuming this is more or less a godly church-- because they have the mind of the Lord on it.

AD

Vasilef

My advice is dont compromise the word of God and dont listen to what people say that is contrary to scripture.

Cohabitation of a man and wife is sheer fornication in the eyes of God. My conscience wants to protest against all the corrupted standards that people even nominal christians are compromised with.

The advice of the elders of your church scare me, how can they advice the woman to go on live with a man outside the lock of marriage, to be godly while you live in the sin of fornication in impossible.

Terrible thing when 'christians' compromise their moral standards.Here where i live there are thousands and thousands who live together and have sexual intercourses outside the marriage lock, and whoever calls anyone of these 'couples' married is either an 'ignorant' of the laws of the state, society, or the bible
or deliberatly compromises his/her conscience with the worldy standards.

The bible, the history and tradition of the church and the voice of conscience cry out against the idea that cohabitation (and having sexual intercourse) of a man & woman is not fornication.It's sin and those who do it should repent.

The Holy Spirit can never live in a person who continually lives in fornication.Let us be clear, black is black and white is white.All those who are like minded as me may sound radical today because we go agaist the tide of the world, our advice may sound sometimes 'unmerciful' to the immoral culture we live in but the worse thing is when 'ELDERS' of a church compropise and go with the tide and give such a ungodly advice for a woman who lives outside the marriage lock.

I also say amen to what ELECTED had to say.

If, [b]in their own way[/b], they made a commitment to each other in love, and stay together because of love, being faithful to each other, then I agree with whoever it is who said it has to be the woman's decision to leave or stay. It may be that God did join them. Only they will know if this is not true, or could be improved by asking God to bless their union.

Can God bless that which is cursed? Sister, the scenario painted above can and does apply to most non-marital, fornicative relationships today. Can a mere "committment" of fidelity replace genuine marriage? We tread upon deceptive ground when folk usurp God's established, time-honored method of marriage with making "committments" in their "own way" - whether it be in love, lust, or otherwise. See, if God has brought a man and woman together, [b]they will always unite in lawful marriage.[/b] Their marriage bed will be honorable and pure. There will be no room for speculation, unbalanced yoking, or spurious common-law procedures. Oftentimes, a man and woman will get get together in the flesh, establish an emotional bond, and without the original sanction of God upon them, later try to force open a door of blessings and peace. Invariably, this occurs after one of them has a life-altering encounter with the Spirit of God and realizes their predicament. The other partner usually remains unconvicted and an incredible drama ensues. The one wants to be blessed and have the peace of God and enjoy His favor over the family, but do the blessings of peace and godly tranquility ever truly come to the union?

No. Because this is impossible, and God never bends His standards to conveniently fit an illegal lifestyle we have erected. He does, however, fix our broken lives when we genuinely repent and resove to do things [i]His[/i] sovereign, legal way. Off hand, I know of a half-dozen instances pertaining to this very thing: Unbalanced yoking, civil unions in the church where the women are miserable, the children utterly confused, daughters dating godless boys, sons disobedient to their mothers and fathers. The proportions are epidemic here in the USA, and I honestly believe it's because we've done things in the flesh that at one time "seemed right in our own eyes".

Brother Paul

PaulWest wrote:

If, [b]in their own way[/b], they made a commitment to each other in love, and stay together because of love, being faithful to each other, then I agree with whoever it is who said it has to be the woman's decision to leave or stay. It may be that God did join them. Only they will know if this is not true, or could be improved by asking God to bless their union.

Can God bless that which is cursed? Sister, the scenario painted above can and does apply to most non-marital, fornicative relationships today. Can a mere "committment" of fidelity replace genuine marriage? We tread upon deceptive ground when folk usurp God's established, time-honored method of marriage with making "committments" in their "own way" - whether it be in love, lust, or otherwise. See, if God has brought a man and woman together, [b]they will always unite in lawful marriage.[/b] Their marriage bed will be honorable and pure. There will be no room for speculation, unbalanced yoking, or spurious common-law procedures. Oftentimes, a man and woman will get get together in the flesh, establish an emotional bond, and without the original sanction of God upon them, later try to force open a door of blessings and peace. Invariably, this occurs after one of them has a life-altering encounter with the Spirit of God and realizes their predicament. The other partner usually remains unconvicted and an incredible drama ensues. The one wants to be blessed and have the peace of God and enjoy His favor over the family, but do the blessings of peace and godly tranquility ever truly come to the union?

No. Because this is impossible, and God never bends His standards to conveniently fit an illegal lifestyle we have erected. He does, however, fix our broken lives when we genuinely repent and resove to do things [i]His[/i] sovereign, legal way. Off hand, I know of a half-dozen instances pertaining to this very thing: Unbalanced yoking, civil unions in the church where the women are miserable, the children utterly confused, daughters dating godless boys, sons disobedient to their mothers and fathers. The proportions are epidemic here in the USA, and I honestly believe it's because we've done things in the flesh that "seemed right in our own eyes".

Brother Paul

AMEN!!!

Paul, you've made some excellent points!

When I advised that the woman should stay in the home, I am not by this taking up the banner for fornication. I am against that.

(And it's kind of a heavy thing to read the different posts implying that I think in a way I do not.)

My only concern has been that we face countless difficult situations like this in our day, and from my own personal experience I have a serious-- I need a stronger word-- question that splitting up the home is the right solution. We live amidst the ruins of what is already a destroyed civilization; there are so many shipwrecked families out on the rocks they can't even be counted any more.

And I am saying that because of this, and because there are people who turn to the Lord from out of these ruins and wrecked families, the church needs to show all compassion and mercy and forbearance and patience and love, seeking God for the wisdom and grace to deal effectively and caringly with people who have become entangled in bad relationships because of bad decisions once made out of a sinful heart. And the church can do this without any compromise of righteousness.

Do you understand what I am saying? Please don't construe what I am saying as... the guy is soft on sin, fornication is okay with him. It is not.

But okay, so she moves out. (It almost seems from one post that she has already done so, anyway.)

But who, then is going to pick up the tab? Who is going to be those kid's dad? Is the local church going to step in here and make what could well turn out to be a necessary long-term commitment? I guess there's always welfare. But Romania is a poor country.

Another thing. Someone, Krispy I think, suggested that the woman could not enter into a true marriage relationship with the man even if he consented. Because he's an unbeliever. So she's got to move out, and can't even move back in again. Unless he repents.

But he is, after all, the father of her children. And isn't Scripture clear that if the man be pleased to dwell with her, she should give her consent? (1 Cor. 7.13)

...I earlier mentioned that I felt the church elders involved in this situation were the ones most able to deal effectively with it. If they are godly men, God will be speaking to them. For one thing, it seems there are other details we here on this site are in the dark about. There was a post that some brethren got to read, I think, but which was then edited out. Or part of it. So without seeing the full picture, that makes it difficult to assess fully, at least from my perspective anyway.

...I will be gone for a couple of days. Blessing upon you all, and I do pray our Lord Jesus Christ help us from the Throne of Grace. Amen.

AD

I have worked, or rather volunteered at a Crises Pregnancy Center for fifteen years. The greatest percentage of our clints were single females who came in for a pregnancy test. Did you notice I said 'single'? They were unmarried. During my minimum of four hours a day, once a week that I worked I saw on the average of three clients a day.

Working with these people taught me a lot, in fact it gave me a lot of insights to some of Jesus' teachings, e.g., Matt. 21: 31b says," Verily I say unto you that the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you." Now Jesus was talking to the local religious leaders.

I do not ever recall having a single client who did not know that fornicating was sin. They all knew it, even those that were shacking for a long time. They knew they shuld have been married BUT they did not want to for a variety of reasons. They told me if they persist in their lifestyle they will go to hell. I did not have to tell them. When and if I preached to them it had to do with them not doing what they knew they should do. [i]This law of morality is written on man's heart.[/i]

Now who were the ones who were defensive about sin? (Now I am referring to another issue.) People who have been spoiled by apostate preachers! No kidding! The average person who has not been spoiled by liberal theology understood the Scriptures and there was no debate or argument at all.

Were my clients Christians? Most said they were but by the Bibles' standards they were not because the Bible says in Revelation 22:15: "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." The context here is telling us these people will not enter the Holy City or into the presence of a Holy God. Ladies and gentlemen, this is serious: what you teach others in contrary to this clear teaching will lead you to hell from which there is no escape. This is not my opinion: this is what the Scripture says. But there is hope - IF you repent.

ginnyrose

I think that they should be married since they are already considered one flesh by scriptures and if the wife will stay faithful then the husband hopefully will follow suit.

I have a strong suspicion that I am one of those here charged with supporting “shacking up”, loose morals, etc - though no one has accused me of violating the Word in any of my comments. In fact, no one can scripturally support the morality of “legal” marriage as we practice it in our culture. You just don’t find a command that Caesar’s endorsement is equated with God’s acceptance. God does not submit to Caesar. (BTW, we haven’t defined what GOD recognizes as a marriage – and we will never resolve this present issue apart from unity on that point. (BTW, I don’t believe that “love” or “documentation” are the only criteria.) Also:

Having sex does not make them married in God's eyes... if it did, then there would be no sin called "fornication".

There is another issue here: none of us knows this father. We don’t really know WHY he doesn’t want to ‘get married”. We don’t know if he prefers the “freedom” to roam around with other women, or the freedom to abandon ship. We don’t know his fears, or his past influences. There is just too much we don’t know about this family, and as “outsiders” -apart from their presence and input - really are not in a position to thrash out their lives.

And yet…. I’m not ready to leave men in this situation off the hook (as some of you have assumed) He has OBVIOUSLY got himself into a commitment, and I could not, in a right conscious, make it easy for him to be absolved of his responsibilities to his dependants by facilitating his departure. That would be grossly immoral. He needs to provide for his family, regardless of his views of civil law. Of course, if he was incapable, and refuses to move towards maturity, that’s another story. Or, if GOD (not humans, elders, etc) calls his wife to leave – ex: Dian

And then there is her. I hate to tell you how many women have told me that they feel that their marriage was NOT made by God because when they were young they were immature, impulsive, or some other reason. Essentially they have psychologically annulled their own marriage. They have one foot out of the door, supported by such questionable rational. I do not support this. It is a thin veil over self-centeredness. My job, as an “older woman” is to influence these women towards godliness, and place their husbands in God’s hands, neither absorbing his guilt, nor abandoning relationship.

Do you see why we need to establish what a marriage is in God’s eyes?

I ask, Do civil marriages presumed “not joined by God” or “common-law” marriages absolve the partners from relational responsibilities? THAT as far as I am concerned, is worldly thinking. I do not condescend to this worldly “escape valve”.

Please do not lump me in with those who condone willy-nilly immorality. All I say is that we must not ignore the GREATEST commandment, because THAT is what we are accountable for (our part).

Please also keep in mind that it is through failures, brokenness, etc - not outer righteousness that people see their need of for God. Can we leave room for God to work - even if it looks out-of-order to us?

Diane

I believe we have defined the scriptural definition of marriage

Diane

roadsign wrote:

I believe we have defined the scriptural definition of marriage

Is a ceremony required by God in order to call a union a "marriage" ?
Verse?

Diane

I'm not sure if you are trying to say something about the woman and man in question...if you are, this is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand.

Everyone agrees they are not married.
She knows it.
He knows it.
The friends know it.
The elders know it.
Everyone agrees they are not married.

Everyone agrees they are not married.
She knows it.
He knows it.
The friends know it.
The elders know it.
Everyone agrees they are not married.

Well said Nile.
This is obvious by the fact that this thread is even here.

Is a ceremony required by God in order to call a union a "marriage" ?

That depends on your definition of ceremony. It is interesting though that in every culture people always make some manner of public recognition of a marriage, and that there is a tying together of a man and a woman. Even in the worst savage tribes there is the recognition that mister X is taking miss Y to be his wife. Even in "shacking up" situations where they couldn't get legal documentation of their marriage because of an atheistical government there was still a public recognition of numerous persons that a certain man was taking a certain woman to be his wife.
In live-in situations there is never that recognition and there is always a reason for not recognizing it as a marriage.
They were in sin and they knew it. Now one is saved. So that changed the sin into holy matrimony right? Oh that's so so so so cheap people. If God saw the relationship as a marriage then why did He even bring the issue to the woman's consience?

Everyone agrees they are not married.
She knows it.
He knows it.
The friends know it.
The elders know it.
Everyone agrees they are not married.

I have many questions about marriage in general. Should we start a new thread...and discuss marriage in general?

And what about God?

If God saw the relationship as a marriage then why did He even bring the issue to the woman's conscience?

I have many questions about marriage in general. Should we start a new thread...and discuss marriage in general?

I would start a new one. I'd like to ask questions also.

If God saw the relationship as a marriage then why did He even bring the issue to the woman's conscience?

That's the only direct answer to your question.

But it is not the Word of God! Human conscience is not necessarily our highest law! After all, many people carry a lot of guilt for what is actually a violation of MAN'S laws or culltural/religous standards. I know (personal experience). It leaves one in a horrible pit of self-condemnation - with NO WAY OUT. Christ did not die for what is NOT sin in GOD'S eyes.

(Could someone tell me what God recognizes as a marriage? And what he doesn't - using SCRIPTURE, please.)

Can you see, I am RAISING the bar by appealing to a higher conscience: God? I highly suspect that if we recognize unions - regardless of rituals or lack there-of - we also recognize and hold people up to the responsibility associated with that living arrangement. We are saying, you can't just keep one foot outside of the door, and view this as a "conditional" relationship.

Maritally, the distinction between what is legal and what is common-law in our culture is tragic. That is all man-made stuff. Gov't liscence is becoming more about money and legal rights - having to do with selfish motives, and desire for security in this world. (I wonder how many would get civil marriages if it meant losing financial benefits, and gov't shelters.)

Don't tell me that most in our culture who marry "legally" are interested in being right before God; or that the gov't is interested in preserving morality. They want control the population, and documentation is a step in their favor.

In view of the ever-increasing corrupt motives of the gov't, we Christians need to take a hard look at just to what extent we rely on it to guide our consiences.

For any of us who feel that legal ceremonies would please GOD more - consider that over half who take that "better" step today end up separating. That gives us another huge segment of our population to condemn!

We in the evangelical community must shake the stardust out of our eyes. Something is terribly wrong, and maybe we are only trying to put concealer on a blemish when there is a cancer.

Diane

Could someone tell me what God recognizes as a marriage? And what he doesn't?

Example #1

The “minister was, and is, a false convert. It was found out later that he was living a life of complete evil…drugs, adultery and abuse…you name it he was doing it. He had many deceived.

The bride is a professing atheist.

The groom was on drugs during the ceremony and does not remember say “I do”, or even hearing any of the statements.

They got married to qualify for a trip to Mexico that was for married couples only.

Example #2

The Vegas Marriage

Preacher got his license from the back of a Rolling Stone magazine and has never professed Christ.

Bride and Groom never went to Church and have lived their lives devoted to the work of satan

What does God consider a marriage? Good question. I'm sure it's different from what the world calls it.

As philologos has said in other threads, we can go with certainty, only as far as scripture shows us.

Let it be so:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality

And what about God?

God also agrees that they are not married.

This is simple stuff...it's not rocket-science.

it's not rocket-science.

This is true, but it quickly becomes rocket-science when renegade convictions are challenged.

Brother Paul

God knows it too, roadsign.

Sex is not marriage. A sexual relationship is not marriage. I know of one who was in a sexual relationship with a man, and she left him when she realized fornication was sin and she wanted to be a follower of Christ. No kids, but it was still a sexual relationship. Should she have married him? No.

She thought very long and hard about the one-flesh thing and good Christian counsel assured her that she did not have to marry this man just because she sinned with him. He probably would have married her eventually, but probably would have had her sin many more times before then.

This situation is no different.

I feel the meaning of commitment is being lost in a flurry of better-legalistically-safe-than-sorry' pronouncements here.

Well said.

I wonder why Jesus didn't tell the Samaritan woman to leave the man she was living with. Didn't even advise her to marry him, when she was the one who brought up religious observance?

I think this is directly connected with the first quote in this post. Like I said earlier, in anything that's considered a marriage there is always a public recognition of commitment.
It was lacking in the samaritan woman's instance and it's lacking in this instance we are discussing too. What started as sin cannot just grow into a picture of Christ and the church. Oh, that's an unthinkable thought!

[edit]

This situation is no different.

PaulWest wrote:

it's not rocket-science.

This is true, but it quickly becomes rocket-science when renegade convictions are challenged.

Brother Paul

Indeed.

Let me apologize for that remark, it was not a remark Jesus would have made.

1 Corinthians 16:14
Let all that you do be done with love.

If he truly does repent and gets saved... marry him. Otherwise, do not become unequally yoked together with this unbeliever.

I doubt we can apply this verse to this situation. It would not be against God's commandments if they would have been married after woman's conversion.

vasilef wrote:

If he truly does repent and gets saved... marry him. Otherwise, do not become unequally yoked together with this unbeliever.

I doubt we can apply this verse to this situation. It would not be against God's commandments if they would have been married after woman's conversion.

...what??? How in the world can you say this verse is not applicable?

Brothers & Sisters

I have just read all the way through these posts, and now sit here shocked by the irresponsible, worldly "council" being peddled here.

VASILEF begins this post by stating that this couple is "not married", so is aware what constitutes "marriage". He then spends the rest of the post rejecting sound council, and appears to try and justify this relationship using nothing but "worldly" feelings and logic.

Then there are those here who completely disregard CLEAR biblical teaching on the subject, and dispense their worldly thoughts and point to their past and say:
" It is the compassionate thing to let this go on, it happened to me, and it will all work out"
Absolutely deadly advice, and totally un-scriptural. Only God knows how many people will read some of your advice, and comments, and use it to justify their own sinful life style. There will one day be an accounting, and we will have to give an account for our words.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Just for the record this is what the Bible has to say about this subject.

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Blessings Greg :-?

I have not just slipped out the back door. I have been away. I am still very torn about this whole situation. But while away, I became aware I have to reconsider what I have said. I am not afraid to do that.

I don't have time now, but will enlarge on this later, hopefully later today.

AD

I want to enlarge on what I said earlier today.

This topic has been very painful for me. And this thread has made it even more painful because of those who are quick, it seems, to judge that the ones (there are only two or three) who are questioning the woman-needs-to-move-out solution... they are somehow pleading for fornication.

No, they're not. It's just, if you can read between the lines, the pain of past experiences coming out. And because of that, a longing... surely... Jesus, is there any other possible way? Has every other possible solution been explored? This hurts.

And I wish I could sense in the posts going forth that everybody involved in this thread has sensitivity enough to understanding this, and priestly heart enough to feel the same pain others are feeling.

There is also the question in my mind as to whether I am seeing this whole picture as it is, the real-life people involved. To me, there are a lot of questions. I asked questions in a couple of other posts. It appears because of the delicate nature of the thing, further details are difficult to disclose. I wish I knew the "real" and not the "virtual" people. And I wish I knew the eldership of this church that's involved. What do they know that I don't? I am very reluctant to write them off as compromisers.

But anyway, apart from those considerations, I had to leave for a couple of days. I thought this through. I wrestled it through, actually. And I put myself in that home. And I had to acknowledge that if I myself were in that home, children or not, I would not be able to get past the bedroom door.

And so... painful as it is, I had to conclude this woman can't continue in the situation as it is. Now saying exactly the opposite to what I earlier said. Why am I so torn about this thing? Well, I know why.

But you can't deal falsely with your conscience.

It's a matter of conscience. And she, with a renewed conscience, with more light in her conscience now... as much as she may love her children, if her conscience will not now permit her into the bedroom with the man, what is she to do?

Sure, I suppose she could sleep in the other room with the children (if there is another room: Romania is a very poor country). But? Does this work? I highly doubt it.

So, as difficult as it is for me to acknowledge this, she has to leave. Or the man has to leave.

...I pray the Convicter of sin to put in the pathway of the man Christians in whom there is such a shining forth of Jesus, His love, His righteousness, that his stony heart will be broken. And I pray Jesus will put in the pathway of the woman those who will provide the hands-on help she will need, and nurture and care for the children. I pray He will release special grace upon the children.

In our day, particularly in the Western World, among secular people and even among most Christians, the legitimacy of a marriage hangs on a little document issued by the state. It has not always been so, and I know there are other ways even now in which the Christian conscience is assured of the same legitimacy. (The "banns" practised by certain Mennonite groups, for example.) But although to my recollection it has not been specifically stated, it appears the relationship in question here did not start as a kind of recognized union (the minus document kind) in the first place. And so, even though it appears the community over the years has come to accept them as a couple because of the long-standing relationship-- which perhaps might be accetable if it had started out with community acknowledgement in the first place, as in many cultures-- as things stand, the woman's conscience can't consent to it. She above all other things has her conscience to guard. She must do it.

...So it looks like this is going to be another torn family. I anguish over these things. Trying to "explain" to children why Mommy and Daddy are splitting up is the hardest thing there is. They don't want an explanation! They want Mommy and Daddy.

Jesus, how long?

I hate sin. I hate what sin has done to families.

If the condition of the family in our day doesn't cause us-- you and me, fellow Christian-- to be broken, and seek God flat out, to create in us a heart that loves righteousness, and hates iniquity, ALL iniquity... till God eradicate every trace of it from heaven and earth...

I pray God do in me at whatever cost all He has to do to put an end to it all. Amen.

...I'm sorry for having made this so difficult for some of you. ...I know it has been very difficult for me. But, I humble myself. I apologize.

AD

From Compliments

Animals are probably more civilized on this issue than we are.

???

Greg

Thanks, Linn. I know this situation has been close to your heart.

One thing this SI site has done for me is make me keenly aware of a much bigger picture than my own life and problems. This is a very big thing we are all involved in, isn't it. So many precious people of God... scattered over the whole earth, going through such hard things.

Scripture speaks of that "salvation ready to be revealed in the last days." Not a different salvation, but the same salvation we now have... revealed, unveiled, opened up. Like a present someone gives you. You admire the box, the paper, the ribbons. But you don't just stop there. "This is mine! Thank you!" No, then you open it up! Even so, Lord. Reveal Your salvation to those who love You!

I believe it is at the door!

I take comfort in this hope, and in knowing that our Lord Jesus is Himself deeply pained with the pain of His people these days. And is preparing to come forth on our behalf. I pray He will be mindful-- I know He will be-- of that little family that's been the subject of this thread.

AD

Krispy wrote:

If there were no children I bet every one on this forum would say she needs to move out and stop fornicating.

With this concept in mind, I was reminded yesterday of this scripture in Luke 18:29-30: And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

The Scripture has the final authority. There are many who think their situation is so unique that God will make exceptions to his rule because who who they are. Sorry, ladies and gentlemen, I find no such teaching in the scriptures.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I think it's the time to give some more details (in the next post). I don't want to give too many details because this is a public forum.

Could you please state how long it is since her conversion, if this information can be given without indiscretion?

I can't say exactly but she came to the Lord and was baptized about one year ago. (I know, baptism and new spiritual birth are not the same)

...what??? How in the world can you say this verse is not applicable?

If there are two single people, one is Christian - the other is not, you can apply that verse immediately.
But if they are not married but they lived a long time together, have children, they love each other and one come to the Lord what would you advise:
- Forget he loves you, forget he is a responsible father, forget you have children, forget he wants to marry you even you are a Christian now, forget him completely if possible. If he doesn't repent you must forget him and leave him immediately whether he wants to marry you or not?

Come on, if he wants to get right with his beloved in the front of God (as he understands it) and in the front of the world how can you possibly say this is not right? If she would accept and marry him who am I to dart scriptures and tell her that she is doing a wrong thing?

(I'm not talking here about he original case, but I only give an example where the man wants to marry with the woman.)

VASILEF begins this post by stating that this couple is "not married", so is aware what constitutes "marriage". He then spends the rest of the post rejecting sound council, and appears to try and justify this relationship using nothing but "worldly" feelings and logic.

Greg, my English is not so good but I know that "appearingly" comes from "appear". You would greatly help me to see where I rejected "sound council" and "try and justify this relationship". Thanks.

Animals are probably more civilized on this issue than we are.

----------------------------------

Disciple asked for some more details. I'll try to give you some more.
When I started this topic I was in the middle of a difficult situation. The man threw out the woman with their two kids so they came to spend the night in our home. The next day he would constantly call her and tell her to come back, otherwise he will find her and be in a big trouble. Of course she didn't want to go back under these threats and we didn't want her to leave. After two days the man called the police telling them that they (woman and the kids) are not aloud to leave our house, that we keep them there by force. The police came and we had to go to the police station to give some statements. We didn't feel safe to keep them anymore there so another family offered to keep them for a few days. In the meantime, the elders talked with her and told her that she should stay away from him for a certain time.
This is not easy to do as some of you already said. She has nothing except a small amount of money she receives from the state for her children.
Thanks God that some good hearted Christians heard about this situation and were willing to help them by providing a place where to stay by their own and the other life necessities.
So now they live in a rented flat. I don't know what is going to be next, if the elders will tell her something or not. I've done what I thought I should do and helped her to stay away from that man. We advised her to stay away from him and not go back, unless God changes the man. I've decided all this somehow independently by the elders so it's not an easy situation. It's a lot of pressure. If I've done anything wrong I pray God to show me.

vasilef wrote:
I've done what I thought I should do and helped her to stay away from that man. We advised her to stay away from him and not go back, unless God changes the man. I've decided all this somehow independently by the elders so it's not an easy situation. It's a lot of pressure. If I've done anything wrong I pray God to show me.

Vasilef, I see this is a difficult thing for you--lots of pressure, as you said-- but with the further details you've provided it's obvious you've done the right thing. And it looks like there are some other Christians there who feel as you do about this (and have helped her get a rented flat).

As you can see from my earlier post, I came to the point of reversing the advice I gave at the first. And what you have added now only confirms this.

AD