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God loves you just the way you are...?

I
iansmith

A few friends from my church have been reading through a Christian discipleship book called Survival Kit.

Two of these brothers on seperate occasions came up to me in order to ask me what I thought about a particular section that they didn't feel at peace about -I haven't been able to give an adiquite answer to either of them, so I was hoping you all might be able to help.

Although you may need to experience growth and change in your life, you do not have to do so to earn God's love and acceptance. God loves you just the way you are.

Beside Figure 7 write: Sure, I'm not perfect, but God loves and accepts me just the way I am.

I encouraged one of the brothers to read Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God by Jonathan Edwards, and told the other one to read Malachi... but I really don't know what else to say -If in fact I need to say anything.

B
Blunt

Its Gods Mercy that LEADS you to repentance.

Although you may need to experience growth and change in your life, you do not have to do so to earn God's love and acceptance. God loves you just the way you are.

Beside Figure 7 write: Sure, I'm not perfect, but God loves and accepts me just the way I am.

The Love of God is presented in the FACT that while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us .
Thats alot to be thankful for .Any other Gospel is not the Gospel of the Bible.

H
Here4Him

Blunt said:

Its Gods Mercy that LEADS you to repentance.

Although you may need to experience growth and change in your life, you do not have to do so to earn God's love and acceptance. God loves you just the way you are.

Beside Figure 7 write: Sure, I'm not perfect, but God loves and accepts me just the way I am.

The Love of God is presented in the FACT that while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us .
Thats alot to be thankful for .Any other Gospel is not the Gospel of the Bible.

Amen brother!!!

H
hmmhmm

The Truth Concerning Salvation
by Zac Poonen

The word of God speaks of "salvation" in three tenses - past (Eph. 2:8), present (Phil. 2:12) and future (Rom. 13:11) - or in other words, of justification, sanctification and glorification. Salvation has a foundation and a superstructure. The foundation is forgiveness of sins and justification. Justification is more than the forgiveness of our sins. It also means that we have been declared righteous in God's eyes, on the basis of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension. This is not on the basis of our works (Eph. 2:8,9), for even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags in God's sight (Isa. 64:6). We are clothed with the righteousness of Christ (Gal. 3:27). Repentance and faith are the conditions for being forgiven and justified (Acts 20:21).

True repentance must produce in us the fruit of restitution - returning money and things and taxes due, that are wrongfully in our possession (that belong to others), and apologising to those we have wronged, as far as possible (Lk. 19:8,9). When God forgives us, He also requires that we forgive others in the same way. If we fail to do this, God withdraws His forgiveness (Matt. 18:23-35). Repentance and faith must be followed by baptism by immersion in water, whereby we publicly testify to God, to men and to demons that our old man is indeed buried (Rom. 6:4,6). We can then receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, whereby we are endued with power to be witnesses for Christ by our life and our lips (Acts 1:8). The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a promise to be received by faith, by all of God's children (Matt. 3:11; Lk. 11:13). It is the privilege of every disciple to have the witness of the Spirit that he is indeed a child of God (Rom. 8:16) and also to know for certain that he has indeed received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2).

Sanctification is the superstructure of the building. [b]Sanctification (meaning `being set apart' from sin and the world) is a process that begins with the new birth (1 Cor. 1:2) and that should continue throughout our earthly life (1 Thess. 5:23,24). This is a work that God initiates in us through the Holy Spirit, writing His laws upon our hearts and minds; but we have to do our part, working out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12,13). It is we who are to put to death the deeds of the body through the power that the Spirit offers us (Rom. 8:13). It is we who have to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Cor. 7:1). Where a disciple is radical and wholehearted in cooperating with the Holy Spirit in this work, the work of sanctification will progress rapidly in his life. The work will obviously be slow or stagnant in the life of one whose response to the Spirit's leadings is sluggish. It is in times of temptation that our wholeheartedness in desiring sanctification is truly tested. To be sanctified is to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled inside our hearts - and not just externally as under the old covenant (Rom. 8:4). This was what Jesus emphasised in Matt. 5:17-48.[/b]

The law's requirements were summed up by Jesus as loving God wholeheartedly and loving our neighbour as ourselves (Matt. 22:36-40). It is this law of love that God now seeks to write in our hearts, for that is His own nature (Heb. 8:10; 2 Pet. 1:4). The outward manifestation of this will be a life of victory over all conscious sin and of obedience to all of Jesus' commandments (Jn. 14:15). It is impossible to enter into this life without first fulfilling the conditions of discipleship that Jesus laid down (Lk. 14:26-33). These are basically to give the Lord the first place above all our relatives and our Self-life and to be detached from all of one's material wealth and possessions. This is the narrow gate that we have to go through first. Then comes the narrow way of sanctification. Those who do not pursue after sanctification will never see the Lord (Heb. 12:14).

While it is possible to be perfect in our conscience here and now (Heb. 7:19;9:9,14), it is not possible to be sinlessly perfect until we have a glorified body at Jesus' return (1 Jn. 3:2). We can be LIKE Him only then. But we must seek to WALK as He walked even now (1 Jn. 2:6). As long as we have this corruptible body, unconscious sin will be found in it, however much we may be sanctified (1 Jn.1:8). But we can be perfect in our conscience (Acts 24:16) and be free from conscious sin (1 Jn.2:1a), even now, if we are wholehearted (1 Cor. 4:4). Thus we wait for the second coming of Christ and for our glorification - the final part of our salvation, when we will become sinlessly perfect (Rom. 8:23; Phil. 3:21).

R
running2win

Although you may need to experience growth and change in your life, you do not have to do so to earn God's love and acceptance. God loves you just the way you are.

This is true. There is nothing we can do to earn "brownie points" with God or earn His favor. God loves regardless. Oh what joy! What bliss to know that God so loved me, a totally wretched sinner, so much that He died [b]FOR ME![/b] when there was no way for me to earn that love. That dear christian is the Gospel.
Beside Figure 7 write: Sure, I'm not perfect, but God loves and accepts me just the way I am.

[b]WHOAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/b] Just the way this is worded sounds like a recipe for loose living! Yes God accept my imperfection but there is a type of perfection that God does command us to come to. God's acceptance is completely unearned but you have to be [b]EXTREMELY[/b] careful when you see stuff like that. We are told to go on to perfection, not to just accept it with an oh well attitude. We can't take such a casual attitude about our imperfections. Even when admitting it we should have a very deep since of humility. I realize it might be easy to misunderstand what I'm saying here but I don't have time to say more right now. I'd just say that they have good reason to be a little cautious with this book.

S
sermonindex

I would find another curriculum. Perhaps, oh... I dont know... maybe the Bible?

Krispy

R
running2win

Repentance and faith must be followed by baptism by immersion in water, whereby we publicly testify to God, to men and to demons that our old man is indeed buried (Rom. 6:4,6). We can then receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, whereby we are endued with power to be witnesses for Christ by our life and our lips (Acts 1:8).

[b]WHOAH! STOP![/b] this is false, erroneous teaching here. While God does command us to be baptized He never said that we have to be before we can be baptized with the Holy Ghost! Dear people that's a HUGE lie! John Wesley (out of ignorance) was never baptized ofter his conversion and there's no way you will ever convince me that he wasn't full of the Holy Ghost. I don't know who said or teaches this 'cause I didn't read the whole article, but whether it's Zac or anyone else I can't let it go by unnoticed.

B
Blunt

Paul summed it up best when he Stated Beware of the DOGS ! Acts ch.15 why do we place the gentiles under A YOKE which us or our forefathers were able to bear.
If you go back to the Law you have fallen from Grace!
The Jews in the first century had a real problem with the LIBERTY that people Have in being set free from the LETTER that KILLS.
If you like carrying a yoke its completely all on you !
I have accepted the FACT that JESUS lived the Life I could not Live , a perfect one.
Why have you who have begun in the spirit seek to be PERFECTED in the FLESH ?

R
running2win

I have accepted the FACT that JESUS lived the Life I could not Live , a perfect one.

As have I, but just because I want to as holy and pure as a saved [b]imperfect[/b] sinner can be doesn't mean I'm under the law. Jesus said- [b]JESUS said[/b] "be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect."
God said to Abraham "walk before me and be thou perfect."
God said that king Asa's heart was "perfect toward God."
Argue with that if you want to but I still wont take an "oh well" attitude about being "imperfect". By God's grace I'm gonna be as pefect as I can be in this life!

H
hmmhmm

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

S
sermonindex

IANSMITH, I AM GOING TO WRITE THIS IN BOLD TO GET EVERYBODY'S ATTENTION. there is a man's preaching here that i hold onto dear to my life- to the point that i long to meet him in person before he dies, for he has gotten too frail i am afraid in the past few months. as a matter of fact, Ian, this man, i for sure know, travels quite extensively to Washington state, Seattle, every year for a confrence in one church. A lot even here on SI don't really like him for the severity of his doctrine. LISTEN NOW, more than any preaching by anybody here, be it Ravenhill, Reidhead, Poonen, you mention it, i have sampled them- oh this man brings too many tears to my eyes. yea, some would think to be human worship. but, i say to you, he confirmed everything that the Spirit of God had taught me in my weakling life by his preaching. not much on him here- about only 20 or so messages. yea i think i begged Greg to invite him to the confrence in October and he did, but i don't think he responded or is willing to come(yet). if you've read my comments, you know who i am talking about but for IANSMITH, sorry this to be dragged, the wait is over- his name is Richard Owen Roberts.
if you want to seriously debunkt that idea, ask them as he states [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13562]in this sermon[/url], who is condemned to Hell, the person who is the sinner, or the sin of the sinner? oh it might seem faceious now to ask that, but after listening to the message, you will understand. a warning :-P - afer you hear the message, you will for sure be amused by questions like- once saved always saved, once justified always justified.

R
running2win

Thank you HmmHmm. I should have done that myself but was somewhat in a huff and didn't take the time to look the the verses up.

B
Blunt

What covenant are you in ? Jesus mentioned in the upper room "this is the Blood of a new covenant" right.The only thing Abraham had to do with the Ministers of this new covenant was that he was in the Faith 430 years B4 the Law.
Jesus told his disciples unless your righteosness surpases that of the Scribes and Pharisees you will by no means enter into the kingdom,Right .Now answer this Can you earn your way to heaven?
Ok I will answer this, JESUS was telling them they needed His imputed perfection,thats it.
The whole book of Hebrews was written for those that did not believe that JESUS was enough so they were going back to Temple Sacrifice.
Pretty simple.
Sure I could go back into the OT and find verses that I can pull out of context and try to beat others with Perfection.
OK.. OK.. ill stop, BUT i will stop at this. What has changed in your walk with Jesus?
Is the Love of Christ constrianing you from SIN ?
well then.You need to sit and focus on how much God had to Pay for you.HIS LIFE... anything else is rifraf. Just explain to us how your Perfectionism has made you more Loving,Compassionate,Mercifull,forgiving,and all of the other things that show you are walking in the SPIRIT.The real fruit of a believer.

S
sermonindex

Repentance and faith must be followed by baptism by immersion in water, whereby we publicly testify to God, to men and to demons that our old man is indeed buried (Rom. 6:4,6). We can then receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, whereby we are endued with power to be witnesses for Christ by our life and our lips (Acts 1:8).

Running2win caught this too... this is false.

You need to get away from curriculum.

Krispy

E
elected

Running2win quoted Poonen :

Repentance and faith must be followed by baptism by immersion in water, whereby we publicly testify to God, to men and to demons that our old man is indeed buried (Rom. 6:4,6). We can then receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, whereby we are endued with power to be witnesses for Christ by our life and our lips (Acts 1:8).

Brother what bro Zac poonen mean here is that Holy Ghost baptisme is a post conversion experience. Welsey,Whitfield, Finney, Moody and manny other godly men testify of there personal pentecost after their conversion.Brother Zac Poonen is telling a FACT but i personally believe that baptisme of the Holy Spirit can hapend at conversion as it can hapend at post conversion.


Iansmith wrote :
[color=0066FF]Although you may need to experience growth and change in your life, you do not have to do so to earn God's love and acceptance. God loves you just the way you are. [/color]

Bother we dont earn God's love because of our spiritual growth and the Holy Spirit transformation in us to the likeness of Christ because God loved us when we were still sinners but whoever is truly born of God should hate sin and disire to live a holy life by the grace of God.

Whoever has the Spirit of God should desire to grow more and more like Christ and bear fruits not to be accepted of God because a child of God has been accepted by Him the moment we believed his Son. The sacrifice of the Son of God was the only accepted offering for our acceptance to God.

Brother if you want my advice look to the contex what these guys are saying, are they saying it to justify their sins or are they saying it out of ignorance. If they are trying to justify their sins and if they are christians they are for sure backsliding.

God loves you just the way you are what do they mean by that? if they are truly christians and they are lukewarm in spirit God hates it (being lukewarm).

Again what they said it should be interpreted in the context of their lives. I cant judge the intentions of their hearts but if i knew them with God's help i could have discened spiritually.

R
running2win

Bother we dont earn God's love because of our spiritual growth and the Holy Spirit transformation in us to the likeness of Christ because God loved us when we were still sinners but whoever is truly born of God should hate sin and disire to live a holy life by the grace of God.

Amen. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. I'm saying that we can come to a place where it's possible not to sin. We can't just keep falling day after day after day and say "oh well, I know I'm imperfect, but God accepts me as I am." In my book that's making a mock of sin and God doesn't accept [i]that[/i].

"My little children, these things I write unto you that ye sin not..."
1 John 2:1

God doesn't just say "oh well" when we blow it. This is what I'm saying. But the glorious thing is in the second half of the verse.

"...and if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous,"
1 John 2:1

God says we are to live our lives as if we were in a race. We're to give it all we have. We need to say to ourselves "I haven't even scratched the surface of what God can make me." That's the christian life. Not that we're earning our way to heaven. Oh, dear christians God shows me more and more all the time how utterly unworthy I am. How incapable of meeting His standard. Imperfect? Oh I see it more clearly every day. I see more clearly how great was the price that Jesus had to pay for me and that's why I want to give Him all that I have and more. Oh, dear people, run to win in the christian life. I think God groans when He sees His children taking an oh well attitude about their struggles. God desires a church that is holy.
Do we desire what God desires? Oh, I do. I do.

God work in my life and make me more like Jesus every day. Take away more and more of that imperfection that I'm so full of Lord.

"I wanna get so close to Him there's no big change on the day that Jesus calls my name."
-anonamous

N
narrowpath


If God does not love me as I am, he may never love me then. I am always as I am, I just don't want to remain as I am now but be transformed into His image until no more I live but Christ in me.

Narrowpath of London

N
Nile


running2win wrote:
Repentance and faith must be followed by baptism by immersion in water, whereby we publicly testify to God, to men and to demons that our old man is indeed buried (Rom. 6:4,6). We can then receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, whereby we are endued with power to be witnesses for Christ by our life and our lips (Acts 1:8).

[b]WHOAH! STOP![/b] this is false, erroneous teaching here. While God does command us to be baptized He never said that we have to be before we can be baptized with the Holy Ghost! Dear people that's a HUGE lie! John Wesley (out of ignorance) was never baptized ofter his conversion and there's no way you will ever convince me that he wasn't full of the Holy Ghost. I don't know who said or teaches this 'cause I didn't read the whole article, but whether it's Zac or anyone else I can't let it go by unnoticed.

I strongly believe this is a case of misinterpretation. In the original context, the sentence, "We can then receive..." starts a new paragraph. I do not believe it is closely linked to the previous statement as it appears here, but rather that it is referring to repentance as a whole (which all will agree should be followed by baptism).

I have listened to hours of teaching of Zac Poonen and I haven't heard him talk about water baptism. I listened to his basic teachings and he doesn't talk about water baptism. I have read his life story book (kind of an auto-biography) and other articles by him on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and do not recall anything about water baptism. If I had read or heard anything about water baptism being necessary for anything, red flags would have gone off for sure.

Again, in defense of Zac Poonen, I strongly believe this is a case of misinterpretation.

btw, I will email the ministry to confirm this.

E
elected

Bro Jeff (running2win) please correct my quote in your thread because i misstyped it, it should be 'in the likeness of Christ' and not 'us'

...the Holy Spirit transformation in us to the likeness of Christ(and not us)

running2win :

God work in my life and make me more like Jesus every day.

This should be the deepest desire of each of us who are truly born from above because our new nature needs to grow in the knowledge and grace of our Lord.
As for sin Jesus came to save us not only from the guilt and power of sin but from the indwelling 'little sins'. The blood of the LAMB of GOD is POWERFUL to clease us from ALL sins, when i say all sins i mean all sins because the bible mean it. Living a pure life to the point where your conscience doesnt condemn you is possible and being consciencly sinless that is possible too and it doesnt mean perfection ( we aim perfection). It means (according to my understanding) that we live such a holy life and we are so full with the divine that we better die then sin ( consciencly). I want to be like that God help me and enable me.

D
dohzman

God IS Love. That's one of His divine attributes. He can be nothing else but love. In time and eternity it will be seen that God has expressed His attribute of Love just as much in the judging of a soul to hell as He did in His saving of a soul to sonship and heaven. As to acceptance once we are in Christ He ever deals with us as with sons/daughters. Sometimes like Peter though we all have to confess that from time to time we fell if we barely make it what will the outcome of the unbeliever be? Sure am glad Peter penned those words under the direction of the Holy Spirit. That gives me comfort. One thing that must be noted also is that God deals presently with All reguardless of the outcome of thier eternal destiny, even though He knows the eternal decission of all His creation individually from the foundations of the earth. For Him to do other wise would make Him unjust, but in that context He rains on the just and the unjust alike.

H
HopePurifies

Easy answer.
God doesn't love me just as I am.
He loves me because He sees Christ.
He loves me just as Christ is.
Amen.

S
sermonindex

this was supposed to be a pm. sorry folks

C
Christinyou

Quote:

""...the Holy Spirit transformation in us to the likeness of Christ(and not us)""

Would it not be in the likeness of Christ is in us by the Holy Spirit by the Seed of God as in Mary. That we might be born again of Incorruptable Seed by the Word of God, which is Christ Jesus Himself. Then the prayer of Christ answered by the Father by giving us the Holy Spirit in us not just with us. Then by the Life of Christ whom brings the Father to our abode and lives in us and within us. Abode equals these clay pots that God has made the temple of the Holy Spirit of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

D
dohzman

Easy answer.
God doesn't love me just as I am.
He loves me because He sees Christ.
He loves me just as Christ is.
Amen.

That's not a true statement. For God so LOVED the World That He Gave.... Jesus was the very expression of God's heart, the Word spoken from the Fathers heart, if you will, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.... There are alot of legal things that happen when we are born again but know this that God can't love a peoson more or less based upon thier profession of faith or lack there of. God IS LOVE. End of story. To believe anything else is to believe a perversion of the character of God. Love always wills the best for everyone irrespective of the outcome and seeks to do righteousness and justice toward all.

S
sermonindex


dohzman wrote:
Easy answer.
God doesn't love me just as I am.
He loves me because He sees Christ.
He loves me just as Christ is.
Amen.

That's not a true statement. For God so LOVED the World That He Gave.... Jesus was the very expression of God's heart, the Word spoken from the Fathers heart, if you will, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.... There are alot of legal things that happen when we are born again but know this that God can't love a peoson more or less based upon thier profession of faith or lack there of. God IS LOVE. End of story. To believe anything else is to believe a perversion of the character of God. Love always wills the best for everyone irrespective of the outcome and seeks to do righteousness and justice toward all.

I think we need to take God out of this little box that we seem to have put Him in, and realise that He can hate you and love you at the same time.

John 3:16 - 'For God so [b]loved[/b] the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.'

Psalm 5:5 - 'The arrogant cannot stand in your presence, you [b]hate[/b] all who do wrong.'

It's no contradiction of Scripture here. Yes, God loves sinners, because they are still His creation. But He also hates sinners, because they are sinners; and because they are sinners, they deserve death and eternal punishment. We were once one of those sinners.


God IS LOVE. End of story.

Not quite. Paul Washer said, 'God MUST hate because God is love.' If 'God is love, end of story', then let's all go home now, do as we like, live as we like, and then waltz into heaven when we die and pat God on the back because He loves us.

I think we need to stop arguing about whether God loves all sinners or hates all sinners. Scripture answers that question for itself. God hates all sinners (Psalm 5:5) because He is perfect and holy. But God loves sinners (John 3:16) because they are still His creation.

As Christians, we are not seen as sinners, because Christ paid our own punishment for our sins. He died for our sins, so that we wouldn't have to die for our sins. He was punished so we might not be punished. But without Christ, we are guilty sinners with a price to pay, which we would pay with our lives, and we would then be cast into everlasting death.

Praise Christ that He took God's wrath, which I deserved.

R
running2win

Living a pure life to the point where your conscience doesnt condemn you is possible and being consciencly sinless that is possible too and it doesnt mean perfection ( we aim perfection). It means (according to my understanding) that we live such a holy life and we are so full with the divine that we better die then sin ( consciencly).

Amen! Amen and amen! And I believe that this is what God means when He says someone's heart was perfect toward Him. If you take a "sure, I'm not perfect" attitude about even the "smallest" sins (i.e. sharp remarks, that tiny uprising of anger when someone cuts you off on the highway, that little bit of impatience in the check out line, etc., etc.) then you've never had even the slightest glimpse of the holiness of God and you've no real comprehension of the price Jesus paid to deliver you from those smallest sins. Christ didn't die to save you from hell, He died to save you from the thing that was sending you to hell. So let me ask you, do you you want to be free from sin?- or just free from hell?
If you can look at verses like Genesis 17:1 and say "that is old covenant and doesn't apply to the christian life" then you might as well get rid of the whole Old Testament. If Genesis 17:1 doesn't apply to us, then there's nothing in the OT that does. If you don't desire holiness, then I fear for you whoever you may be.

R
running2win

I think we need to take God out of this little box that we seem to have put Him in, and realise that He can hate you and love you at the same time.

[b]AMEN!!![/b]

N
Nile

(This is off topic, but I'm following up on my previous post. I emailed Zac Poonen about water baptism being necessary for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and what their statement of faith said. He replied quite simply:

"I am saying it as Peter said it in Acts 2:38. But there are exceptions as in Acts 10."

Draw what conclusions you will, Nile.)

P
PreachParsly

Are there two different types of love?

Jhn 3:16 \t For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 15:10\t\tIf ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If they are the same, how can you [b]not[/b] abide in his love yet God loved the whole world?

I
iansmith

richardf wrote:

I think we need to stop arguing about whether God loves all sinners or hates all sinners. Scripture answers that question for itself. God hates all sinners (Psalm 5:5) because He is perfect and holy. But God loves sinners (John 3:16) because they are still His creation.

Last night I was lead to this verse and I think I understand what it means now:

[b]Malachi 2:17[/b] Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

...

I was right with Malachi until that last part... or... so he doesn't like the extremes. It doesn't seem like God through Malachi is condoning either cheap grace or harsh condemnation.

P
PreachParsly

I was right with Malachi until that last part... or... so he doesn't like the extremes. It doesn't seem like God through Malachi is condoning either cheap grace or harsh condemnation.

Here are three verses that stick out to me.

Pro 11:1 A false balance [is] abomination to the LORD: but a just weight [is] his delight.

Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.

Pro 20:23 Divers weights [are] an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance [is] not good.

S
sermonindex

Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Krispy

D
dohzman

'God MUST hate because God is love
I can't answer for Paul Washer because I don't really know his dogma. I do know that no where in scripture does the Word describe God "as" hate. God "is" love--- this statement is an essential part of God's attribute. When hate is used of God it's always used in response toward an unlawful or evil "deed". But hate is not an Attribute of God, in other words it cannot be said of God that everything God does is conditioned by His attribute of Hate, you with me? It can be said of God that in everything He does He conditions it with the attribute of His Love. God is Love, that is one of His attributes and that Love conditions "everything" God does.


Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Look closely at that statement in scripture, note the word "worker".

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Note "deeds"- and Loved Darkness. They had a choice and made it for darkness.


.

S
sermonindex

Dohzman, completely agreed. Note, I never said that God [b]was[/b] hate, but that does not mean He [b]can't[/b] hate.

Although God is love, that is not to say He cannot hate just because He is love. I think we use that as an excuse sometimes, when we sin, we sort of know (or assume) that God will forgive us because He loves us. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's OK to think that, but I'm sure we've thought that thought before.

Some non-Christians I know say, 'I'm OK, God loves me doesn't He? So when I meet Him, He'll just sort of let me into heaven. He would never send someone He loves to Hell.' These people don't realise that actually, without Jesus Christ paying the price for their sin, and them accepting that He paid it, nothing will be left for them except God's wrath when they stand before Him and are told to depart.

It's another balancing act in the Christian life - we need to remember the right amount of God's love without forgetting that He is a holy, jealous and perfect God who hates sinners, and [b]will[/b] punish sin. No exceptions. Sin will be paid for.

I always think of that tract that says, 'What's wrong with this picture?' There's the ark, and the rains pouring down, and on the side of the ark it has a smiley face that says, 'Smile. God loves you.' I think we could also say that it would be wrong to have on the side of that ark, 'God is love.'

R
running2win

it cannot be said of God that everything God does is conditioned by His attribute of Hate

Well said.

I
iansmith

I think Paul Washer is being done a disservice here.

I've listend to the sermon and he is very correct in his interpretation of scripture.

God is Holy. The logical conclusion would be that he would have to be repulsed by filth and sin because he is Holy!

But God is ALSO Love. And it is because of His Love that he gave His Son.

P
PreachParsly

Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Krispy


Hmm.. The revelation that God has entrusted us (the bible) says the chicken.... :-)

D
dohzman

On eternal hell judgement. Let me be clear here because I think we agree but let me put it this way. It will be found that in time and eternity it was the Love of God that placed unrepentant sinners in hell and not just His justice, wrath or righteousness. An unrepentant sinner could never be happy and content in heaven because thier very nature isn't fitted for heaven. So God in His Attribute of Love justly passes sentance for an eternal hell on unrepentant mankind. The wrath of God is as much done in Love as the salvation/love of God is done in love. Does that make sense? Because Love is an essential part of God's being, there is nothing that He can do apart from that nature, He can not turn it off and on at His will like we would turn our emotions off and on or as one would turn a water facet off and on, if a unrepentant soul stands before Him at the judgement and cries out for mercy, with exacting accuracy His justice will show the missed oppurtunities and His love I believe will be revealed at the same time with such clarity so that the unrepentant will than be released to thier true nature of evil and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

R
running2win

On eternal hell judgement. Let me be clear here because I think we agree but let me put it this way. It will be found that in time and eternity it was the Love of God that placed unrepentant sinners in hell and not just His justice, wrath or righteousness. An unrepentant sinner could never be happy and content in heaven because thier very nature isn't fitted for heaven. So God in His Attribute of Love justly passes sentance for an eternal hell on unrepentant mankind. The wrath of God is as much done in Love as the salvation/love of God is done in love. Does that make sense? Because Love is an essential part of God's being, there is nothing that He can do apart from that nature, He can not turn it off and on at His will like we would turn our emotions off and on or as one would turn a water facet off and on, if a unrepentant soul stands before Him at the judgement and cries out for mercy, with exacting accuracy His justice will show the missed oppurtunities and His love I believe will be revealed at the same time with such clarity so that the unrepentant will than be released to thier true nature of evil and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Agreed. But remember, the original discussion was about this statement
Although you may need to experience growth and change in your life, you do not have to do so to earn God's love and acceptance. God loves you just the way you are.

Beside Figure 7 write: Sure, I'm not perfect, but God loves and accepts me just the way I am.


N
Nile


dohzman wrote:
On eternal hell judgement. Let me be clear here because I think we agree but let me put it this way. It will be found that in time and eternity it was the Love of God that placed unrepentant sinners in hell and not just His justice, wrath or righteousness. An unrepentant sinner could never be happy and content in heaven because thier very nature isn't fitted for heaven. So God in His Attribute of Love justly passes sentance for an eternal hell on unrepentant mankind. The wrath of God is as much done in Love as the salvation/love of God is done in love. Does that make sense? Because Love is an essential part of God's being, there is nothing that He can do apart from that nature, He can not turn it off and on at His will like we would turn our emotions off and on or as one would turn a water facet off and on, if a unrepentant soul stands before Him at the judgement and cries out for mercy, with exacting accuracy His justice will show the missed oppurtunities and His love I believe will be revealed at the same time with such clarity so that the unrepentant will than be released to thier true nature of evil and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Brother dohzman, thank you for this.
What a great truth God has given to you - thank you for sharing it!

D
dohzman

There is one over riding principal with in this statement we need to rember, We become what we behold, Looking in a glass darkly we are changed from glory to glory, and the original command of Jesus, If any man will be.....let him deny himself take up the cross and follow me. The only real flaw in that original statement is where are the eyes fixed? Self? Sin? Or Jesus?

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