Joyce Meyor

I am very saddened by Krispy's comments about Joyce Meyer-she teaches straight from God'sWord...I dont understand such disdain and hate coming from a Christian (KRISPY)....Ray Comfort was correct in going on her show...

I pray, Krispy, and others that agreed with you, that your heartswillbe challenged and turned to the Truth...

NanaLauraLee in Lilburn,GA

Hi NanaLauraLee...

Welcome to the forums!

I agree that we can all use a little more tact when sharing what each of us believe to be truth. Often, we share from what "truths" we are convinced of, and sometimes neglect to leave a little room for personal persuasion. There are teachings that are very much accepted in some circles that I don't particularly agree with. However, I have no more liberty in tearing down the sacred beliefs of someone else unless there is absolutely no doubt in such matters. Unfortunately, there are quite a few issues that aren't 100% settled -- yet we often feel the "liberty" to express our views in a more absolute manner. It is sometimes difficult to recognize such lines that should not be crossed.

That being said, I must confess that I'm not really a big fan of Joyce Meyers. I've never really watched her on television, and I know little about her background. However, I have read some of her writings (particularly in a few major Christian periodicals). Unless I am mistaken, she seems to hold more to a brand of prosperity message than I feel is less than Biblically accurate. Additionally, I haven't really read anything that she has written that has pierced my heart. I tend to prefer works that, having read them, leave me hungry for much, much more of the knowledge of God. I don't mean this as any sort of attack on Mrs. Meyers. Rather, just on that sort of genre of messages in general.

Regardless, I know some people who really enjoy her messages. I've actually known some ministers that I respect quote her. I suppose that since I know so little of her ministry, I should leave it at that!

:-)

BTW, Krispy is a great guy with a terrific sense of humor! While we don't agree on certain issues, he is a true lover of God and brother in the faith!

Here is one quote that shows she doe not know the Jesus of the Bible,

“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — [u]the first born-again man”[/u] (pg. 36, underlining in the original).

This is taken from her book, "The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make".

Of course if you can show me where in Scripture this is taught, I will take this back.

How can someone lead people to a jesus that is not the Jesus of the BIble and yet have defenders? Paul said that if any preached another Gospel let them be accursed, and he warned of those preaching another jesus.

Here is another quote from the same page
“There is [b]no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell”.[/b]

Again, show me from Scripture, not conjecture where this is taught.

I do hope that you are not offended because these errors are brought out, but rather that you would look to Christ alone, the real Christ of Scripture.

Nana,

One of the wonderful things about this forum is that there are lots of people here who know more then you/I do. They read a lot, see things you/I do not see and they share their insights. All of this I find immensely helpful because I cannot be everywhere and know everything. They teach me and I am deeply grateful that people will share. Now some are more aggressive in presenting their views, get to the point quite quickly without wasting lots of words - this describes Krispy, IMHO. You can use psychology in trying to persuade folks but that takes a lot of time and words to accomplish. So some are just more blunt but they mean no offense.

Hope this helps and that you will find this site a blessings like many others have.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

Jeannette,

GA is Georgia, USA. Lilburn is located right next to Atlanta. The reason I know is that our son used to live there.

Hope this helps.

ginnyrose

This is a small article on where she spends her money
[url=http://www.trinityfi.org/press/JoyceMeyer1.html]Joyce Meyer's Finances[/url]

Good article on this topic: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17373&post_id=135469&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=36#135469]Spurgeon on False Doctrine[/url]

I love what Poonen says, "I'll tell you what you need...you need more RIGHTEOUSNESS!!"

These prosperity preachers are deceived to the fullest.

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this...but whatever.

Here goes...

He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. John 8:7

I'm not particular fond of her...and I'm NOT for the Word of Faith teachings...

BUT...

I don't know how to say it...but a lot of these comments just leave a bad taste in my mouth.

For what it's worth, I know of someone that was in prison, who was very much touched by her prison ministry.

Also worth noting:
some of the Teen Challenge centers use her book: "Battlefield of the Mind".

Again, I'm not trying to get into this debate...just my two cents worth, I've got better things to do with my time.

God bless

i listened to that comp, if that womens voice is Joyce mayer? then we should pray for her.

She is totally wrong in her understanding on who
God is, i should probably listen to more from her, but the statements she makes is just soooo..... wrong

quote:
you can be selfish all your life and go to heaven.

what bible verse is that?

Yea, this Christian cross carrying submitted leader who refuses those who shalbe abased (or brought low).
Hmm, did you all say that I am a deceiver and a sinner, and a heritick (tyndale says makerofsects). Isn't the word of faith just another sect, where those who have not the sprete of God are none of his, preach that lucre is godlinesse?
Thus saith the Lord; ye would plead with me, yet you all are but sinners?
We need to be warned that whosover doth not take the commandments of Paul as the commaundmentes of the Lord Iesus Christ, is subverted and sinneth.
Doth the sprete of God ignore this; (I usually use simple straight forward quotations of the 1526 Tyndale/Roye N.T
2 Thesa 3:6-14 ¶ We require you brethren in the name of our Lord Iesu Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh inordinately, and not after the institution which ye received of us.
7 Ye yourselves know how ye ought to counterfeit us: For we behaved not ourselves inordinately among you.
8 Neither took we bread of any man for nought: but wrought with labour and travail night and day, because we would not be grievous to any of you:
9 not but that we had authority: but to make ourselves an ensample unto you, to counterfeit us.
10 For when we were with you, this we warned you of, that if there were any which would not work, that the same should not eat.
11 We have heard say no doubt that there are some which walk among you inordinately, and work not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Them that are such, we command and exhort in the name of our Lord Iesu Christ, that they work with quietness, and eat their bread.
13 Brethren be not weary in well doing.
14 If any man obey not our sayings, send us word of him by a letter: and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed:
15 And count him not as an enemy: but warn him as a brother.

All men shalbe iudged accordynge to works, and by thy wordes thoushaltbe iustified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
I am warned to escape decpetion, yet I am told to ignore 1 Cor 14:34 at the very least,
Women should be modestly appareled, letting it be the hidden man of the heart, whyche is a thinge most put by

OH Lorde, how there is not one sayncte more
very few faithful are there among the chyldren of men. You would stone tyndale if he were sent you in these parlous tymes.

1 Timothy 4:6 If thou shalt put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Iesu Christ which hast been nourished up in the words of the faith, and good doctrine, which doctrine thou hast continually followed

These after K.J bibles, are heavily minished and added to so moche, that Tyndale would even prefer the weakened K.J text, if his were not avaiable widely in print.
Brethern, and sistern, without the help of false prophets (oh how my eyes runwith tears), and the fact that you are all faithless and trust in men, using your doctrines to recieve the praise of men and those like Meyer use the word of Iesu Christ as lucre grabbers.

Sory, I can pass the test, shewing that all are under sin, and that idoles rule this land, and their names are much more put by than Tyndale's.

2 Peter 3:14-15 14 Wherefore dearly beloved, seeing that y look for soche thynges, be diligent that ye may be found of hym in peace, without spot and undefiled:
15 And suppose that the long sufferynge of the Lord is health, even as our dearly beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom geven unto him, wrote to you - (1526-2007 Tyn-dale Print edition)

Due to soche a life because of unrigteous laws, I canonly say so much, and oft I've ignored you're debates, forgiveness is the Lorde's and I won't touch the images either, neither covetousnes and false witness bearyng.
Fear not the haters of God, the doers of wrong, the covetous the boasters and the proude

FOr thorow much adversity shal we enter into the kyngdome of God (Paul in Actes)

Amen in the name of Jesus Christ

Sentry wrote:

I'm not particular fond of her...and I'm NOT for the Word of Faith teachings...BUT...

I don't know how to say it...but a lot of these comments just leave a bad taste in my mouth.

For what it's worth, I know of someone that was in prison, who was very much touched by her prison ministry.

Consider the Apostle Paul as recorded in Phil.3:15-17:It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (NASB)

Perhaps one of the strangest things is that a person can come to the LORD through the ministry of a false teacher. For example, David Bercot testifies how he came to the LORD while a JW! One thing I must realize it is the Holy Spirit that convicts, using whatever is at hand to bring this about, even if it is contentious teachers.

My understanding of this issue...

ginnyrose

Perhaps one of the strangest things is that a person can come to the LORD through the ministry of a false teacher. For example, David Bercot testifies how he came to the LORD while a JW! One thing I must realize it is the Holy Spirit that convicts, using whatever is at hand to bring this about, even if it is contentious teachers.

This is my understanding as well, Ginny. The Word of God does NOT return Void.......it is His Word that brings forth salvation, not the worker.......the "worker" is merely the vessel the Lord allows to be used for HIS purposes. Blessings, sister.

Without regard to Meyer (or anyone else), even though the Word does not return void, shouldn't we be mindful of how we conduct ourselves? Though we don't control the supernatural, won't we be held accountable for our actions? Also, in Proverbs, aren't those who know the truth, yet see brothers and sisters 'being led as lambs to the slaughter' (in other words, led to confusion by lack of their own education in the Word) obligated to speak up?

just a couple of questions...
Leigh

Hello...

While I have already mentioned that I am not a fan of Joyce Meyer (simply because I don't agree with some of the things she said in the few times I have ever read her writings), this conversation might become a little more productive if the individuals labeling her as a "false teacher" might give examples as such.

The doctrinal beliefs that she seems to espouse are certainly a part of the "prosperity" domain. According to some articles, Meyers has a high-on-the-hog lifestyle (million dollar homes, lavish lifestyle and many bills paid for by her "ministry"), yet she still preaches about God helping individuals in difficult circumstances. It makes me wonder how an individual can stand up and proclaim such things while the "ministry" supports the excesses of her life?

Anyway, the criticism that I feel is not directed at Joyce Meyer, but at all individuals and ministers who adhere to the modern "prosperity" message. I consider such a message to be quite "cultish." It's not that I feel that individuals who believe it are "unbelievers" -- but that they are believing something that might be based upon the sin of coveting. Instead of promoting contentment, it exalts fleshly desires.

Anyway, I know little about Ms. Meyer from a firsthand basis. However, the little that I do know raises questions -- not from a depiction of her heart or relationship with God -- but about the validity of her messages and ability to proclaim her familiarity with "hurting" or "needy" individuals.

:-)

Hi Krispy...

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I would agree with you if there wasnt already plenty of evidence previously posted in this forum. All anyone has to do is take a few minutes and search for it. It is redundant to post it all over again.

The people (not meaning you) who demand evidence generally dont want to bother to do the research many of us have done. They demand people like me give it to them... when it's already been done. I dont see the need to keep repeating it over and over and over and over again everytime someone new shows up and demands evidence.

Search for it. It's all here. How about someone else doing a little homework. Joyce is the one who needs to defend her position, not me mine.

Perhaps this thread would have been more useful to the initial poster if we could have, using tact, provided clarity for the determination of our position. I used the search feature to find some of the discussions about Ms. Meyer, but this sort of "research" yielded massive results. Regardless, it didn't really provide the initial poster with a rationale for our own perspective.

It might be helpful to not only explain what causes personal apprehension to Joyce Meyer's "ministry," but to point such a believer to something much better.

:-)

I found this message by Carter Conlon of Times Square Church in New York to be very informative and helpful in this area.

"The Glory Of God And The Image Of Jealousy "

Page # 8 under Carter Conlon

Your Sister in Jesus

yup pardner we run that there carasmatic clean out of town....

Some years back, when Joyce Meyers was less well known, hadn't had a face lift, had a tacky little stage setup, and so forth, she taught some really ouchy, very spiritually compelling series on the fruits of the Spirit, on ethics, obedience, almsgiving, and a number of other very suitable topics.

And yes, being a Berean, I caught her in some errors, but not so seriously unscriptural to place her in cult status. Not being a serious devotee, I don't read her current books, but I did like 'Battlefield of the Mind'.

I'm not fond of the WoF movement, because they teach giving to get...now, and that message is far too repetitive for my taste. Putting everything into positive speech patterns hasn't transformed my life, but it hasn't hurt either. As for expecting God to do your will just because you tell Him His scriptures over and over is sliding into presumption, but I'm sure God is used to that from us humans.

But until a few years ago, Joyce was pretty much on track in other ways. She believes in zero debt, not living beyond your means, and working hard to get ahead. And for her, it has certainly worked very well. Too well, perhaps, for most people's tastes.

I don't follow her these days since I don't have time, but I do know her ministry has benefited many in world outreach and her prison ministries, which are still among her priorities, and are very effective. If Joyce can get someone started in Jesus, then as Jesus said, "Those who are not against us, are for us." Mark 9:39-40

Hopefully, they'll find they need stronger meat than Joyce, but I do know that when she tried to go deep, no one wanted it. She couldn't give her Deeper Life tape packages away without tying a lot of fluff to it.

Her family all do work for the ministry, taking care of her spinoff ministries for the mission field, for the youth, for the prisons, and I do not care to take fault with her for that. All family businesses do the same thing. As to her income, the majority of the green comes from her books, which these days are all self-help. But Joyce has written a few books that have spiritual value, so long as you read your Bible too.

Her current homes, and those of the family are new to me...I guess I'm out of touch. The last I heard, she was publishing her personal giving percentage at over 25% of whatever she makes, which is obviously considerable, and 10% of the entire ministry. And as for her putting all the cars and houses in the ministry's name, well, again, most businesses do the same. The fact they are expensive is normal for any successful businessman, using the tax laws down to the last jot and tittle. Her husband Dave, is a very good businessman. And they started off with nothing, following her call to a tape minsitry and Bible teaching on weekends for less than expense money
35 years ago. So far as I know, she's only gotten really high on the hog the last 5 years.

Strange how we judge a person without knowing them well. Those that have kept up with her, or done a lot of research, know that most of her life, her entire family lived on a shoestring basis, just like the rest of us. And those that have been very poor, when they come to be rich, sometimes live too high for our comfort.

With Joyce's background, and the financial success of the WoF preachers, one can see she may have been misled, and perhaps does mislead in some things, for she does speak in a generalized manner that is perhaps not as particular about scripture as I, or Krispy, and many others would like in her off the cuff remarks, even in her books, which she produces at an awesome rate.

These days, Joyce just seems to be re-hashing old stuff, which is a problem for preachers everywhere...they get boring and repetitive, and tell the same old stories, unless they just preach the Word! She's abrasive, and has an unpleasant voice, and yet people love her. When her show's title changed from Life in the Word to Enjoying Everyday Life, I did notice a refocusing on the pop psychology, and so forth, and hence have stopped listening. But I do know that many babe's in Christ find her enlightening.

Perhaps no popular preacher should be valued...they are too suspect. One wonders if Spurgeon in his day was criticized in the same manner, or due to preaching brilliantly and without obvious error, was also wise enough to live small, and thus escaped reproach? I doubt it. He was too brilliant not to be a subject of envy.

And for Spurgeon buffs, I am not putting Joyce Meyers into Spurgeon's class as a preacher, merely at his success level. Most well known preachers never get noticed while alive, because they live on next to nothing, and make very little noise. And overall, Chambers is a great example of a relative unknown having a very great effect due to the efforts of others getting his word out after he was with Jesus.

All in all, Paul had the best idea. Work for a living, and preach on the side. It was effective to the nth degree. If the popular preachers would take note of how little they need all that 'stuff' to be comfortable, it would help everyone downsize a bit, to at least living without credit cards, and with a generous heart towards others.

My ministry is, and I hope will remain too small, (overall cost - $40.00 per month + my free time, hence not requiring donations) to ever get me into a place where others will criticize me for being good at what I do, which is providing a little scripture with a little explanation in casual terms to people who don't like church services, but happen to like Jesus. I do hope I manage to get to a place where I end up with a "Well done, thou good and faithful servant", from Jesus. I don't have the drive these days to care for much more.

On the other hand, if God will allow me to get a book out that can make a difference to others and make me a bit of ready cash, I won't complain too much. I promise not to wear flashy earrings!

Blessings,

Forrest

Nana,

In reading this thread, I do not see where you have replied to any responses to your original post...maybe I have missed it, but I do not think so.

Others have declared the reasons for their opposition to Ms Meyer and now I will tell you mine.

Ms Meyer has been divorced and remarried. The Scriptures tell us that whosoever marries her that is divorced commits adultery (Lk. 16:18, et al). Since she fits into that category, that would automatically identify her as an adulterer. And the Scriptures also teach us that no adulterer will enter the kingdom of heaven. (Gal. 5:19, Rom. 13:9, et al). Not my idea, but God's. So whatever else she may do whether it is good or questionable is beside the point as far as I am concerned. We can go on and argue until doomsday, if you will, about the validity of my declaration, but one thing you will not succeed in doing is changing God's mind as recorded in the WORD. It will be in our best interests to always uphold it. And if that puts us at odds with others, we should not be surprised because the devil uses other 'Christians' to get us to surrender turf that has been won by the blood of Jesus in our fight against sin as manifested by weak human flesh.

Nana, the number of false teachers out there are a dime a dozen. Actually, they are likely more plentiful then godly ones.

This is my understanding of the Word of God and how I apply it to myself, and others including ministries.

I hope you will reconsider why people do cry the alarm when they see false teachers being supported by God's people. If God's people support false teachers, it seems to me they're pardnering with the Enemy, even though it appears innocent. Read Ephesians 5:11.

Nana, have you ever been duped by a false teacher? I have. And when I became aware of this I felt so ashamed, so mortified, so appalled and was aghast that no one even warned me! So you see, some of us have been there and done that: that is why we are so stubborn in our stance against false teachers!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

PS: I am not interested in getting into the divorce/remarriage debate: this has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.....I just shared my conviction here on this post.

Thanks Forrest, that was a pretty good read.

One of the main reasons that my husband doesn't like Meyer is because of her abrasiveness. That's just the start.

I listened to Joyce because she sounded like my Dad, straight & to-the-point. I don't listen to her anymore because I've out-grown her in my walk with the Lord.

But there is no preacher who is going to sway me away from keeping Jesus Christ #1 in my life. All the Spurgeon's & D.L. Moodys & Tozers & others are not going to get that #1 spot.
All men/women are fallible.

God knows Meyers heart; now in the present, and in the future.

There is a way to correct a person who is following false doctrines, and that is in love through Jesus Christ. If that person isn't willing to listen, our greatest weapon is prayer.

It's so easy to fall into this kind of temptation where we believe we're defending our Lord, but really, we're tearing down another person that He created. He created them for a purpose, too.

It's hard, for me, to remember that it is the Holy Spirit who does the work in man's heart and not me.
(I ask forgiveness for that a lot in my marriage). :-(

It's important to remember the battle is a Spiritual one...it's unseen. If God chooses to keep one person's eyes shut for a season, yet He opens another's eyes to the same thing...we can trust that He knows what He's doing. We need Him to guide us in what we're supposed to do (& not do) while we are in wait for that person.

I don't know too much, I'm learning, but I do know that Love & Prayer are two important things of the Bible.

Yea, shortly but surely thou needest not that I speak of a woman's sunjection. No but on the fact of falsehoods and the burdens that these teachers lay on men's shouldres.
In my youth only with a K.J and the letter only (because there is no holy ghost coming to you with John's baptism or calvin's infants) Without the spirit ye can not pluck your neck out of the bonde (I mean the O daughter of Sion, forsake not the Lord)
Wherein have I corrupted the Lord's work, is it God's will that I have respect of persons over the rich with circumisized clothing? Art thou not a transgressor? See that as James.
Thorow unrighteuous deeds have these false prophets got their great ryches. See the example of Micah and wish you had revalacions on Habbukuk, see that this is not a insureection againste god, yet a crooked path made strait?
(Today's Mathew edition)
Micah 6:9-16 ¶ that thou mayest be called a city of the LORD, and that thy name may be righteousness. Hear (O ye tribes) who would else give you such warning?
10 Should I not be displeased, for the unrighteous good in the houses of the wicked and because the measure is minished?
11 Or should I justify the false balances and the bag of deceitful weights,
12 among those that be full of riches unrighteously gotten: where the citizens deal with falsity, speak lies, and have deceitful tongues in their mouths?
13 Therefore I will take in hand to punish thee, and to make thee desolate because of thy sins.
14 Thou salt eat, and not have enough: yea thou shalt bring thyself down. Thou shalt flee, but not escape: and those that thou wouldest save, will I deliver to the sword.
15 Thou shalt sow, but not reap: thou shalt press out olives, but oil shalt thou not have, to anoint thyself withal: thou shalt tread out sweet must, but shall drink no wine.
16 Ye keep the ordinances of Amri, and all the customs of the house of Ahab: Ye follow their pleasures, therefore will I make thee waste, and cause thy inhabiters to be abhorred, O my people: and thus shalt thou bear thine own shame.

There is even a Moses and Samuel among you, even a Daniel and Job, yet God's heart cannot be with this people, if you understood the prophets!
There is not a godly man upon earth, there is not one righteous among men. They labour all to shed blood, and every man hunteth his brother to death: yet they say they do well when they do evil.

How bitterly I say you with mirth and glasness should lament!
Lamentacyons 3:19 ((Zain.)) O remember yet my misery and my trouble, the wormwood and the gall.
20 Yea thou shalt remember them, for my soul melteth away in me
31 ((Caph.)) For the Lord will not forsake for ever.
32 But though he do cast off, yet according to the multitude of his mercies, he receiveth to grace again.
33 For he doth not plague, and cast out the children of men from his heart.
34 ((Lamed.)) To tread all the prisoners of the earth under his feet.
35 To move the judgement of man before the most highest.
36 To condemn a man in his cause; The Lord hath no pleasure in such things.

These wordes are used as a measure of just how lacking they are of God, how that they that judgest do the very self same thinges?
All ther works they do to be seen of men

Perhaps just posting the link on where these are would be helpful.

So funny but this what I was thinking..
It is easy to tell someone it is out there, but somepeople have a hard time finding it. I am talking for myself. I have a hard finding things.
So it would so helpful to have link, that we can go and read ourselves. That would be such a blessing, not only on this tpoic but with any post.

In His LOve
charlene

The question is not whether she or any of the prosperity preachers are "changing lives". Jim Jones also changed lives. Like Krispy, I am not making a direct comparison of Ms. Meyer's with Jim Jones, I am only pointing to the fact that the humanitarian side of her ministry is not indicative of a true gospel message.

Furthermore, it is easy to fabricate the "blessed life" here in America. Today, with what I undestand about business and principles of integrity I can become very wealthy and proclaim God's "blessing" as the cause. Yet, I know that's not my lot. Too many of us are blinded by the apparent fortune on someone's lifestyle and do not consider if it is indeed a blessing from God or just a person operating in good business practices which gender financial favor.

The truth is that the scriptures, as others on this thread have mentioned, point to this very hour we are living in today. This message of prosperity is nothing more than a greed-gospel filled with coventeousness and excess. It is "another" gospel that neither Jesus nor Paul preached.

Let me ask a simple yet profound question, if Jesus the Christ was sitting on the front row of Ms. Meyer's church, would He stand up and say, Amen? Would He affirm her and testify that she perfectly understood His mind and heart? How about Paul? Would He consent to this doctrine? I think not. I can imagine Paul tearing his garments and denouncing this teaching. I can see him writing those "weighty" letters, like he wrote to the churches at Corinth; rebuking those that teach and propagate this error.

Now, I am not talking about the Jesus that this world and many these false teachers have CARVED out of the scriptures with their own images of Him. I am talking about the Jesus of the bible. The one who pointed us toward heaven and its rewards. The one who instructed us not to "take thought" concerning the basic neccessities of life. The one who said that a flower was more gloriously adorned than King Solomon, with all his wisdom and wealth-getting and yet that flower never sowed asked or stored anything. It is pathetic to me that many have been drawn away from the simplicity of the gospel through discontentment and lust for power, influence and position. They behave as though their little mini-kingdoms will continue into eternity. They allure many with the "bling-bling" and ensnare weak-minded and unlearned people into the very trap they are caught in. I can go on but I will not. This is my first time doing this. I am sure I've offend some. I am an apologist but I do not apologize for telling the truth. That's what an apologist is supposed to do.

His Servant,

Brother Suarez

There's no question in my mind that you are correct. It is in many ways very cultic. If we would listen carefully, people, when speaking of what has happened in their lives, they almost [u]always[/u] give credit to being "connected" to this ministry or that ministry. They praise the ministry for their "partnership". It's usually attributed to "sowing" seed and reaping some sort of harvest resulting in whatever they were "believing" God for as a result of the "anointing" on the ministry. Thus the "ministry" becomes your medium for your blessing. The ministry has exalted themselves and become the mediator between God and man. 'If you sow your $1000 today [i]I'll [/i]pray to God because He has anointed me for this purpose',etc,etc. But if nothing happen, well, they say, you did not "believe". So now it's your fault. ABSOLUTE INSANITY!!!

I recently viewed on You Tube a rap music video produce by Creflo Dollar all about "money cometh". He was showing his congregation a rough unfinished version. The video was full of idolatry,coveteousness and lust. At the end, it appeared that the entire assembly rose to their feet and lauded the video as if they were praising Jesus. They are all brain-washed. He's a false teacher, a liar and a religious hustler.

I have also come out of the WOF movement. Plainly said, IT IS A SHAM, PERIOD. And anyone reading this, who is in the so called "movement" ought to flee from it as if it were a house ablaze, because it is. It will consume all of your livelihood and that of the life of your family. It will drain you to the last penny. Go ahead and attempt to ask THEM for money. Ask them to sow into YOUR life. Let THEM obey the very "princples" they coherse you to obey. See if they'll give to you. Those of you sowing into Ms. Meyer's, Creflo's or Duplantis' ministries. Call them today and tell them that you've been sowing into their ministry and now you are in need. See if they'll send you what you ask for. Nuff said.

If you think I sound angry, I AM. If seen too much during my years of walking with Christ. I've been silently awaiting my LORD permission to speak. I sense that that season has come upon me.

With all of the souls that need to hear of the redeeming love and mercies of Christ and with all of the work in the field, we ought not to waste another moment in this trash of a doctrine. Caus' that's what it is, TRASH.

His Servant,

Brother Suarez

false teacher are among us we are to be careful
I agree now is the time to speak truth, Truth hurts. But we are to speak in love and grace, but yes we must speak truth. The word of God, for that will set us free from our thinking.
God does want to share his glory with any others.
Our money isn't ours It is his.

Father I pray open our eyes help know what is good and what is bad. PLease brake down any walls in our hearts. Please make us humble to listen and obey your truth. Father we can speak of these thing, but Father make it real in each of our hearts. Plesae Father let us long to be fed by truth, nothing added or taken from it.

In his love
charlene

I've been silently awaiting my LORD permission to speak. I sense that that season has come upon me.

Speak on, brother. You'll always find a kindred audience here when it comes to upholding truth and exposing falsehood. I detest WOF, and have much to say about it, but brothers like you and Steve (Krispy Krittr) can already articulate it so well! I am a Pentecostal Christian (Assemblies of God) and unfortunately know some beloved brethren caught in this web...and it grieves me so. People need to know about the pitfalls of WOF, the error, the false Jesus being propagated. Have you heard Wilkerson's "Another Gospel"? Substandard audio quality, but incendiary nonetheless!

Welcome to SI, by the way. :-)

Brother Paul

I am sure the devil laughs while we trash one another. I used to raise chickens. They would gang up on one chicken and peck it to death. I once stopped it and they killed it anyway when i wasnt there. from what i can see Joyce misspeaks and the people here on SI move in for the kill.
I wonder if any of these attackers have ever misspoken?...ooops
David

Brother David,

While I appreciate your heart, the fact is that neither she nor any of the others are "mis-speaking" as you say. This is their [u]doctrine[/u]. This is their [u]teaching [/u]. This is what they promote and sell to millions around the globe. Perhaps you should do some research and then come back with your findings. Maybe you'll have a different perspective. Yes, everyone has mis-spoken before. And I can only hope that we've repented and made restitution where neccessary and possible. But this is entirely different. Different, in that not only do they [u]teach[/u] it but condemn those that do not "believe" and say that they're without faith. They [u]teach[/u] that poverty is not apart of the Christian experience and that anyone in "covenant" (as they understand and teach it) is supposed to be wealthy and own lands, houses, etc.; that GOD owes them these things because of the "blessings of Abraham; that GOD CANNOT deny them these things because it's "in His will" so therefore He MUST do it. This is absolutely foolish. Their [u]teachings[/u] are heretical and deadly. Yet they continue and justify it with no sense of guilt, but rather are arrogant, prideful and selfish. They are deceiving and being deceived. Jesus warned us of such false prophets. Peter, Jude and Paul, warned us of these very teachers and their teachings in their writings. Their warnings were concerning greed for money and exploitation of the people of God. In fact, if you'll look down church history you'll notice that most, if not all, of the false teachers/"profits" were motivated by money, e.g. Balaam. Most importantly, I encourage you to search the scriptures concerning this topic and see what you discover. So, please, do some background on this teaching and those that teach it and get back to us.

With Love,

Brother Suarez

PS The ones the devil is really laughing at are those who "buy" into this teaching. Remember, he tried to tempt Jesus, the Son of God, with this exact prospect.

Luke 4:6-8 "And the devil said to Him, 'All authority I will give You, and their glory, for this has been given to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours'".

Sounds familiar??

i think the thing that we have to constantly keep before us is what does this woman TEACH..if we are talking about what kind of person she is, then we can just go back and forth on her style, personality, and etc. but if we are talking about what does she TEACH, then scripture would command us to test her and her teachings.. it commands us to put away false teachers..

once again, the question before us is her teachings..and if she continues preaching the WOF's gospel (which is really no gospel at all), then her TEACHINGS must be condemned as false..

LoveHim wrote:

once again, the question before us is her teachings..and if she continues preaching the WOF's gospel (which is really no gospel at all), then her TEACHINGS must be condemned as false..

Amen. Well put.

vsuares,
If i understand you correctly then I have to say that the baptists and the lutherans and the presbryterians are of the devil also because they all HAVE FALSE DOCTRINE.
i DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANYONE ON SI POINTING OUT FALE DOCTRINE. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH [NOW LETS MOVE IN FOR THEE KILL]
AND......THIS WOMAN IS A DEVIL
AND......LETS TRASH THIS WOMAN
.........DAVID

psalm1 wrote:
vsuares,
If i understand you correctly then I have to say that the baptists and the lutherans and the presbryterians are of the devil also because they all HAVE FALSE DOCTRINE.
i DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANYONE ON SI POINTING OUT FALE DOCTRINE. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH [NOW LETS MOVE IN FOR THEE KILL]
AND......THIS WOMAN IS A DEVIL
AND......LETS TRASH THIS WOMAN
.........DAVID

Brother David,

With all due respect, I think you are missing the point. I am not calling into question her as a person. It is what she is "teaching" that is being challenged. And to make a correction, I did not call nor intimate that she is a devil. Nevertheless, the teachings she is propagating and promoting are from demonic/seducing spirits. The fact is that anyone of us can be deceived by a seducing spirit if we are not on-guard. We can all give our mind over to those spirits if we are not grounded and settled in the truth. In fact, when Jesus said beware of false prophets, he was essentially saying, hold your mind back from their teachings.

David, as bearers and messengers of the New Covenant, we have a serious and sober responsibility to defend the faith once delivered to us by the apostles and prophets. This issue is much greater than any one person, i.e. Joyce Meyer's, Creflo, Copeland, etc. These people are only avenues for false doctrine.

Our warfare is not actually with them. I know EXACTLY who my enemy is and I know EXACTLY how enforce his defeat him, whic occur triumphantly at the cross. The word of God is quick (living) and sharper than any two-edged sword my brother. Our warfare is not against the flesh but against the prince of this world. And while he is a formidable foe, he does not stand a chance against a saint dressed in Christ's garments; clothed in His righteousness and might. For this is the victory which overcomes the world, even our faith.

It seems to me you [u]may[/u] have been taken in by her personality, disabling you from seeing the truth about her doctrine. I would ask you to examine yourself and your motives for your defense of Ms. Meyers.

With Respect,

Brother Suarez

PS It appears to me that by your own admission, I infer that you acknowledge the fact that their teachings are false. For since your initial response you have not defended her doctrine, but rather stated that she "mis-spoke". The issue David is that you seem to place more importance on defending a person more than the Word of God and upholding its integrity. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems your priorities are inverted and misplaced. Just my observation.

jimdied2sin wrote:
I will say that these teachers are not somehow, innocent vessles that propogate heresy. They are enemies of the cross of Christ. Not just their doctrine, but them personally. Notice how Paul puts it.

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

1 Timothy 6:
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

Naming names - Jim

I totally agree with you. And after reading your response I can see how mine could be taken as a letting those who teach this doctrine off-the-hook. They are in fact enemies of the cross of Christ. They have willing yielded their vessels to be used for this purpose. I did not mean to intimate that they are being innocently used against their will and conscience. Only that I want to focus in on our ultimate enemy. They are false teachers clothed in sheeps clothing, i.e false shepards. So I thank you for pointing that out.

Krispy, Wow so much supposition and name calling. I didnt mean to "yell".and I didnt know I did. But am willing to learn.[will watch out forr those caps]
I dont doubt that anyone reading my posts will learn real quick that i am uneducated.
Am trying real hard to participate.It takes me foreveer to bang out a post.
Iwas intimidated at first but came back.I dont know if you are trying to bully me but it sure looks that way. the thingss you say about me are faabricated in your head.
you command me with great authority. As if I must obey you.
you need to go back and read what you wrote to me......its simply not true
.....David

I agree with you aand Krispy 99% i just dont come to the place of calling joyce a false teacher.
I am not a man of means and am not tryimng to get rich. Its possible the rich will have more to answer for. maybe i do need to investigate more into joyce. I havent heard her for aalmost two years now. Since we left Florida. I just cant imagine her as a false teacher.
Maybe it because of my immaturity.
...David

dear brothers in Christ,

wow, this has been a fun thread. thank you all for writing on this. i, along with many here, do not wish to attack joyce meyer personally, but doctrinally. let us hold those false teachings against the true word of God and let her teachings prove her to be a false teacher of the gospel..

shall her teachings not be opposed or held to the light of God's word because she seems nice and funny??? c'mon, we all know the answer to that one..

anyways, thanks guys for posting on here..

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15038&forum=34&1]7 Characteristics of false Teachers[/url]

dear hmmhmm,

thank you so much for the link to that thread..
wow, that was crazy because it is so much what you see now and what was always..

the words may change or be draped in different vocabulary with different terminology, but the heart of the words and the motives are still the same throughout the centuries.. and should we be surprised?? is not their father the devil behind all of the anti-Christ doctrine??

we question teachings and doctrine and get responses like "but they are so nice" or "they help a lot of people", but if someone preaches another Jesus and another gospel, then they are not helping anyone but satan himself.. but many do not think of this when this kinda stuff is talked about..

anyways, thanks hmmhmm for the link.. it was very helpful and i'm sure i will continue to dwell on this for a little bit..

Krispy, I think truth is sometimes elusive. there are valid and invalid questionss. For example I cant say well " if he is such a great evagelist why did his wife die in sin?Or how about this-"He couldnt be an evangelist because he became an alcohaulic."You cant cancel someone out over an invalid question.
Have you ever prayed for sommeone and had your prayer answered?
Would this be a miracle?
Maybe God is moving you into the healing ministry!......David

True false doctrine misrepresents God, who He is, and how He operates. It gives someone a false impression of God's character.

That's it, right there, good definition. However, "true false dcotrine" is somewhat of a contradiction in terms. ;-)

i like what Zac Poonen says, or something like this

-Can you distinguish between a preacher who is interested in making you holy, and a preacher who is after your money, then you will avoid much deception.

The quote isn't 100% accurate because i don't remember it exactly, but it captures the "heart" of what Mr Zac Poonen said in that sermon. I also heard another thing that he said, as long as he has money in his own pocket why should he ask you for yours?

they don't have "offerings" in the church he is a member of.

things to think about, i always wondered, if it is Gods will what those guys on TV are doing? how come they have to beg everyone to give to them? why don't they ask God instead?

i listened to one hour sermon by Benny Hinn, 55 minutes it was absolutely right bible doctrine and i had to agree with what he said...but the last five was just out to get your money, I used to be a thief myself so when someone "builds up" the atmosphere just to get your money i know how to do that, you can get people by getting them to pity somone or something, you can do it by promise them good things will come to them if they give, they will prosper....

and as a drug addict i was a master at these things, so when i se these men and women preach on TV, its like a chill down my back, even worse when i see the people that follow them, then my heart breaks.

[b]Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.[/b]

we need to know what the bible says better then any other generation, know it know it know it.

it's funny, the WOF preachers say that if you don't get healed, wealthy, or physically prosperous, then you don't have enough faith.. but like hmmhmm said just below, why do they have to ask man for money.. do they not have enough faith to command that God just give them money?

why the begging and stories to snaggle money out of people's pocket? why the empty promises so that their kingdom can be established here on earth where moth and rust destroy and where thieves can break in and steal.

things take on such a different light in view of eternity..

krispy, the reason i brought in the analogy is because you said of kathryn kohlman,
if she was a faith healer why did she die of cancer. and my point is , if we can connect those dots then the sky is the limit as to what i am allowed to come up with.
I am stiil feeling my way along here, but the anti everything crowd here ...... this is new to me. is this some kind of baptist forum?I think if I had on a baptist hat I could hi 5 99% of the bros here,Is this a coincidence?.....David

dear david,

what krispy is saying i beileve is that if faith healers just speak it and it happens, then why do things like death, cancer, etc happen to them.. shouldn't they still be alive, healthy, wealthy and prosperous in everything physical..

it may be a new thing to be here, but i believe that some things will open your eyes and force you to either look at the scriptures or hide behind a "well that's not what i have always been taught so i don't want to hear it" kind of mentality..

so just wanted to write you and tell you these things..by the way, i was raised in a pentecostal "church" all my life, so i'm not baptist, just a believer in Christ..

when Jesus said "greater worrks than these shall you do" what was he talking about?
also Jesus said "but tarry in Jerusaalem untill you are endued with power"and......."they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover,"
It make no difference if everone on thee face of the planet drops the ball.
When the King comes I better be bearing fruit. Jesus said these signs shall follow those that believe.
I dont know about others but that includes me.
......David

dear psalm1,

the way i understand it is that Jesus was saying that we will be doing greater (more in quantity) miracles than Him.. He healed the sick, made the blind to see, raised the dead and freed people from the bondage of satan and translated them to the kingdom of light.. what can we possibly do that's better than that??

if someone has a better understanding of that, please write and let us know..

the disciples had to wait and tarry until the Holy Spirit would come down upon them, during the feast of pentecost..

but you're right in this, we better be doing the Father's will when He comes back..like Christ said "i need to be about the Father's business"

KrispyKrittr wrote:

and go into the desert with only the Word of God to sustain me... and it would be there that God would begin to teach me HIS Word

that is good advice.

Krispy, You seem to be the man everyone looks up to here. So let me ask you a question.[maybe several if you have the time].
Was wigglesworth a man of God or a false teacher?
Did wiggleswworth have a proven ministry.
Do you read any books such as oswald chambers or john Lake, or Dowie?
do you think anyone that moves in the "gifts" is a phoney?
Are you reaching for anything spiritually or do you feel as though you have peaked out?
I am not being ugly orr sarcastic.[ I ssay that because i dont know how this comes across]
.......David

Im just thankful that "it denies" no. 10 carries a disclaimer.

dear katy-did,

thank you katy-did for listing these things out.. i don't know how many people are famailiar with all of the things the WOF movement denies..

I wonder if the"thrill of the kill" mentality applies if one lowers their sights on their own camps discrepencies.

dear pasalm1,

who has a thrill of the kill mentality here?? are you upset because someone listed out what a movement denies??

i hope not.. i haven't seen anyone just rip into anyone personally here, have you??

just asking brother..

Katy-did wrote:
The Word-Faith / Charismatic Movement theology denies many clear Bible teachings. For example:

It denies the doctrine that the atonement was made by Christ’s death and blood and that it was finished on the cross (Jn. 19:30; Rom. 3:25; 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Heb. 9:22).

Hagin taught that Christ was sent to hell after His death on the cross and there he struggled against Satan and the demons and by his victory over them he was born again. This is heresy of the greatest sort. The Bible plainly states that we are redeemed by Christ’s death and blood (Acts 20:28; Heb. 9:14; 10:10). The atonement was finished on the cross. When Christ dismissed His spirit from his body, He cried, “It is finished” (John 19:30). The Lord Jesus Christ was not born again; He was never lost. He bore our sin, but He was never a sinner.

It denies the doctrine that Jesus Christ is the unique and eternal Son of God (1 Tim. 6:15-16).

It denies the doctrine that Jesus was the “firstborn from the dead,” referring to His resurrection, promoting rather that He was born again (Col. 1:18).

It denies the doctrine that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (Jn. 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9). If the believer could be anything like equal to Jesus He would cease to be the ONLY begotten Son of God.

It denies the doctrine that Jesus Christ alone is the creator of all things (Jn. 1:3; Col. 1:16; Rev. 4:11), which means the believer is capable of creating things.

Katy,

I think your 'things the WOF movement denies' are wrong.

They do believe in Jesus is Fully God and Fully man. (I'm not apart of this movement but I do reconize them as brothers/sisters in Christ)

Yes, they believe in ungodly properity. But that's their flaws.

To say 'the WOF movement is unregenerate'(You didn't say this literally but by saying Jesus was not God, I'd say that is indirectly saying they aren't saved.) I think is absolutly incorrect. Because they do believe Jesus is God and atoned for our sins on the cross.
http://www.joycemeyer.org/AboutUs/StatementOfFaith/
http://www.kcm.org/about/faith_statement.php

People can get saved in the WOF movement, Emergent movement, or Roman Catholic just as in the Reformed churches.

Yes, each 'movement' has their own faults but be careful saying 'this entire movement rejects Jesus as Lord'.

Also, the "WOF movement" is NOT the Charasmatic church. If it were, which it's not, that would say everyone in the underground church in china believe what you say 'they deny'. I.e. The Chinese church believe in the Gifts are for today.
Go here for a belief of the chinese underground church
http://www.backtojerusalem.com/pdf/StatementOfFaith.pdf

About 'Christ going to hell is heresy'. Look at the apostle's creed
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/apostles.creed.html
Statement #4.

Be careful in judging. Leave room for God to judge because He knows a lot more about any 'movement' than we do.

Lovehim, I am not wof or a joyce meyer supporter, What is [in my opinion] at issue is [lets destroy] attitude that I pick up. Why? because these "posters" dont apply their doctrinal purity template across the board. I do question these people that[in my opinion] attack.
I think I am entitled to an opinion.
Now as to the"denies" list.
I am assuming You espouse a similar orr exact list. We would have to assume "the list " to be accurate.
....The only problem is its a denoninational list flawed in itself.
So i cant go with Joyce or "the list"
BUT I can have an opinion. Or.....wait... let me check the "holy list" or should I say baptist bylaws to see if I am denied an opinion.
again if this I about purity ....no problem.
but in MY OPINION it is not.Because it is not across the board.
This forum is intimidating and I for one would like to hear from Joyce or her represenative before condemming her. Maybe she is wrong and maybe not,but false teacher .....I wouldnt go that far.
But the "list " is definately boggus.{in my opinion]
If I come across as upset......I dont know how to defend a negative.Which is a rabbit trail.
We cant see each other and dont know the others emotional state. But your post comes across calm nd cool and I hope mine does too
I'm just a dummie with an opinion.I know i am offending people here.But if someone doesnt say something this attacking will go unchecked.
make sense?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=7661&commentView=itemComments]How to escape deception - Zac Poonen[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2]Another Gospel - D.Wilkerson[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1724]Run for your life - Carter conlon[/url]

if you only got 3 minutes, listen to this one

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15129&commentView=itemComments]I want to be among those - Compilation[/url]

Paul soberly warned us that we are not be carried about by every wind of doctrine. I think all of this "back-and-forth" is about the person of the ministries and not really about their doctrine. If we judge this movement (we so gently call it) by and through the Word of God, we will discover they are leading many to err from the faith once delivered to the apostles.

It's a shame that we are so willing to make excuses and defend these ministries and not the Word of God. My heart aches that we will not boldly and fearlessly withstand this error with godly zeal and passion.

Since when does a ministry or "movement" take precedence over the truths in His word. Listen...we have the RIGHT to judge a tree once it has born fruit. To suggest that we do otherwise circumvents our obligations to test all things. Jesus, in fact, commended the church at Ephesus for testing and trying those who were false apostles. Let me repeat, HE COMMENDED THEM, NOT CONDEMDED THEM FOR "JUDGING". Also keep in mind that he corrected and REBUKED the church at Pergamos for NOT judging and bringing rule to false teaching concerning MONEY Rev.2:12-17. To me, those opposed to this method of discernment are themselves guilty of the same error. If you do not correct it, you are just as guilty of the error as those who propagate it. In fact, there are laws of the land that hold people accountable for not intervening in an incident if they could have.

How can we idly sit back and allow these liars to spew false doctrine and be content, with no sense of guilt??? We must warn many concerning the WOF doctrine. It is a doctrine, not a movement. To me, by calling it a movement, that's a way to sanctify it and cause others to keep from judging it. So if it is a "move of GOD" then, 'woe unto me if I should question it'. Here MY bottom line. In revelations, the angel declared, "let those who will be filthy let them be filthy", etc. Those who are caught up in this newest whirlwind are those who had the "curiousity-sail" of their unanchored boat up and they've gone for the wild, directionless ride and are enjoying it, for the moment.

Here's a questions:

If the scriptures say that many deceivers and false teachers will come into the world to lead many away from Christ through false liberty, greed, permissiveness, etc., and if those whom we are discussing (Meyers, Creflo, Copeland,etc.) are not those of whom the scriptures warn us about, then where are they???? If not them, then whom? If these doctrines and its teachers are not the leaven Jesus warns about, then how in God's name do you define their doctrine. And where are the "real" false teachers. hmmm

A LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENS THE WHOLE LUMP

You say, some of what they preach is true doctrine. Let me tell what that looks like to me in the spirit. It looks like a spiritual Frankenstein. Pieces from here, pieces from there. You cannot serve two masters, HELLO!! Didn't our master Jesus say this. Yet, they preach the very opposit of the Master. This should be an obvious sign. Perhaps, it's too obvious, therefore, WE REASON. And that's the problem!

It's so disturbing to me that this nation's Christian, in particular, are so dull of hearing and lack true discernment. It is a shame that those in the world have more discernment than those in the body. They take one look at these hucksters and know what their game is about. Yet, we, who are suppose to have the Holy Spirit, cannot call it what it is. Listen..I was raised in the hood'. I know a hustler when I see one. These men and women are pillaging the innocent and the poor. Don't you have a heart for the poor in this. GOD DOES!! I tell you that this is pure wickedness to the highest degree. They make spoils of the poor and fill them with pipe dreams that will NEVER be fulfilled!!! They take the little that the widow and the single mother has with no intention on helping them when they're in need. Here's their response, 'You've gotta belieeeeve GOD'. It disgusts me and most of all it disgusts Christ. He loves the poor. This is not about me nor anyone on this thread who opposes these false teachers and their teaching. It about the SOULS. THE SOULS. THE SOULS.

MY PERSONAL COMMITMENT

I am going to continue to sound the alarm. I have no time for political "niceties", or religious diplomacy. There are lives on the line. And yes, let us bring this home. You know, we have made much in this thread about "tearing people down" and "attacking" people, but we have to understand that it is PEOPLE we are trying to "pull out of the fire". It is PEOPLE we are trying to steer away from these deceivers. And it seems that through all of this dialog, those opposed to our opposition(or method thereof) to these liars have lost sight of the fact that the SOULS of PEOPLE are (or should be) the motive for our zealous assault on these demonic arguments and strongholds the ENEMY has built.

His Servant,

Brother Suarez

I must be a bigger dummie than i thought. I just read Joyces statement of faith link [about 3 or4 posts back] It looked pretty good to me. All you have to do is click on the link and I think it will clear most of the alarm up.
what really got me was the chineese church statement of faith! wow Right on! Im so glad for these links.
I really do wish Joyce could somehow defend herself. I know I dont have the info. or the time.
But the links are helpfull. And her statement of faith should clear at least some of the attacking.
....David

Years ago there was a time when all people had to do was make mental assent to a few statement of truth or doctrine. And if they were able to essentially say 'yes/ah huh' they were considered Christians. They were handing out Christianity like nothing. Statements of faith are meaningless. I can draw up a perfect doctrinally sound statement of faith right now. In fact, there are un-saved scholars that also do the same, and they are certainly not saved. What I am saying is, this basis for discernment is flawed and dangerous. I've read some statements of faith from known cults that are almost spot on to what we believe. That would not make them anymore saved than the street pimp.

The makes me think of what Christ said concerning the religious leaders of that day. They had authority so Jesus said do what they say, however, don't do what they do.

I will go on to serve the Christ of the bible.

Brother Suarez

dear lovegrace,

i appreciate the statements of faith, but i would ask if you listen to his (kenneth copeland's) preaching.. while his statement of faith may look good, he preaches alot of what katy-did wrote.. you can have all the doctrinally sound statements that you want, but the real message you're trying to send will come out in the preaching and i don't read in scripture where Jesus had to be born again to be saved (which is one thing he preaches). it's stuff like that that is extra-biblical or just wrong.

just a thought..

Here a link to a sound teaching concerning money by Zac Poonen

http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID8155.mp3

Vsuares,I will be the first to say word of faith has error.I used to own more wof books than Hagin himself.I now own none. I dont like to and wont listen to copeland.I USED to listen to joyce, But stopped about 2 years ago.
In my opinion [ 90% of wof and Joyce attackers are against "the gifts" in general.This is an age old diff. between baptist and charasmatic believers.
I am totally, totally totally, against prosperity,as a doctrine.
But I do believe God wants us to prosper [ it is unethical to be poor]
I have 2 main beefs with word of faith ,One is prosperity as a doctrine . The other is the thinking that nothing bad should happen to the child of God.
I am awkward in opposing the attackers because I CANNOT watch those videos put out by the attackers. I tried it once and it broke my heart. These things cross the line.[in my opinion]
This is what i see.These attackers hate ANYTHING to do with the "gifts" and word of faith and now they think they have the tools in their hands to do major damage.And they fully intend to exploit and take out of context EVERYTHING they can to achieve their goal.
Here is another way to look at it. When paul took it upon himself to attack.{inside the body] he shed tears.
the problem here is you evidently dont see these people as the body of christ. They are your enemy.
You talk about discernment and the word of God. Any one that moves out into the things of the Spirit ALWAYS is miSunderstood and almost always is hated by the world AND PRECIOUS CHRISTIANS.
....David

David,
I don't believe anyone here on SI is against the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There have been no arguments that the gifts are false and all that. God hasn't changed. What He intended for the church in Acts He intends for all true christians. And I know exactly what you're talking about when you talk about the "attackers" and their videos they make "exposing" these false teachers. I much prefer the KJV so I started reading a book called [i]New Age Versions[/i]. A book "exposing" any version that wasn't KJV including the NKJV. The woman that wrote the book went as far as using profanity to describe the translators of the other versions. It was done completely out of hatred. It was so grieving I couldn't get through the first chapter! Anyway, alot of the movies meant to "expose" these WOF teachers are the same way. Done out of rage and not out of the Spirit of Christ. They will have to answer to God as to why they did the things they did. But I would have to say that I have seen no "attacking" here on SI. There has been alot of people condemning what Joyce teaches but not attacking her person. I too say that what she teaches is damnable heresy but I wont attack her as a person. Her standing with God is something only God can judge. But we have every right to judge what she teaches. Anyway brother, I hope you don't sense that we've been attacking Joyce for the sake of attacking Joyce because we just don't like Joyce. I haven't sensed that from any of the posts on this thread. We're just discussing what she teaches- to the extent of my knowledge anyway. No hate talk or slandering here.

psalm1 wrote:
Vsuares,I will be the first to say word of faith has error.I used to own more wof books than Hagin himself.I now own none. I dont like to and wont listen to copeland.I USED to listen to joyce, But stopped about 2 years ago.
In my opinion [ 90% of wof and Joyce attackers are against "the gifts" in general.This is an age old diff. between baptist and charasmatic believers.
I am totally, totally totally, against prosperity,as a doctrine.
But I do believe God wants us to prosper [ it is unethical to be poor]
I have 2 main beefs with word of faith ,One is prosperity as a doctrine . The other is the thinking that nothing bad should happen to the child of God.
I am awkward in opposing the attackers because I CANNOT watch those videos put out by the attackers. I tried it once and it broke my heart. These things cross the line.[in my opinion]
This is what i see.These attackers hate ANYTHING to do with the "gifts" and word of faith and now they think they have the tools in their hands to do major damage.And they fully intend to exploit and take out of context EVERYTHING they can to achieve their goal.
Here is another way to look at it. When paul took it upon himself to attack.{inside the body] he shed tears.
the problem here is you evidently dont see these people as the body of christ. They are your enemy.
You talk about discernment and the word of God. Any one that moves out into the things of the Spirit ALWAYS is miSunderstood and almost always is hated by the world AND PRECIOUS CHRISTIANS.
....David

It seems to me David that you are caught between two opinions and are trying to weave them together into a harmonious quilt and it just isn't going to work. On the one hand you have discarded those books written by the very people, who's teachings, we are examining. I am not suggesting that you are a hypocrite. So, let get that out of the way. It just seems to me you want to have it both ways, and you can't. The fact that you discarded their books is indicative of your position against their teachings. You've treated their teachings as leaven. Leaven is a type of wickedness or sin. Jesus warned of the leaven of the Pharisees. They loved money, power, authority, position, influence. Sound familiar?? It takes a small amount of yeast to raise the entire lump. They have become puffed up declaring themselves to be god's. They believe they have the "same" creative power by [u]their[/u] spoken words as God. This is beyond just a simple "doctrinal" difference David. This is out right heresy. It is the same ol' lie Satan tricked Adam and Eve with. 'Eat this fruit and you'll be like god's' Paul, concerned about this warned the church with this very same admonition. I too recently went through my library and tossed many of those teaching out. As I stated before, your actions testify of you detesting of what they teach. Yet you want to remain non-confrontational. This ought not to be so. If someone asks you why did you throw away those teaching what would be your reponse? How can you reconcile having thrown away their teaching and yet not confronting their ministry?

It's an amazing game the WOF teachers have, I must admit. On the one hand they teach what appears to be right doctrine. Then, simultaneously, they teach the heresy along with it. Now, if you have the nerve to questions their doctrine then "be careful", do not "touch" God's anointed. So, either way, those in this movement are damned. You're damned if you question it and you're damned if you remain in it. What an awesome racket (def. a dishonest scheme, trick, business, activity ) this is!

Now, to clear things up. I did not intend to intimate that they themselves are my enemy. Though one can develop a very strong agrument that they are enemies of the cross, as someone recently did in this thread. My reference to the "ENEMY" was directed to Satan himself. 2 Cor. 10:3-5 says that we are to pull down the strongholds of those opposing the mind and knowledge of God. We do this through ministering sound doctrine and rebuke. According to Titus 2:11-15 we are commanded to rebuke with all authority. Keep in mind that this is within the context of qualities of a [u]sound [/u] church.

Further to my argument, why not just tear the pages out of Mr. Hagin's book that you don't agree with and keep the one that you do. I am sure there are parts of the book we can all agree with. It's like a piece of moldy bread. Most of us would throw away the whole pieces of bread, if not the whole loaf. Some might break off the pieces that's moldy and eat the rest, but that's not recommended. So, we dump the whole pieces of bread just in case there is mold that we cannot readily see, which is usually the case. Sorry for the long analogy. I hope it makes sense. No one, I perceive, on this site is going after them personally, as has been stated before.

1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, [b]which drown men in destruction and perdition.[/b]

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1 Timothy 6:11 ¶ But [b]thou[/b], O man of God, [b]flee these things[/b]; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

as Pastor Conlon puts it...RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!....

Katy-did wrote:
You see, we don't overcome our old sin nature.

Hmm, how do you register "I die daily" or the doctrine of santification?

Also, I never denied her and other's lavish lifestyle. But to say they don't believe in the Trinueness of God is to completly be ignorant of those links I gave you. BLUNTLY stating they DO believe it in.

You opinion of things don't line up with anything. So, that's why I 'rebuked' or 'called you out' on this was because I believe your judgement is INCONSISTANT.

If you want to argue against prosperity preachers. Just condemn their lifestyle. That's strong enough. (You can't serve God and mammon, is a good scripture)

Anywho. Katy. Your 'judgements', I think, are unbiblical and absolutly prejudice because of your lack of sources on your 'denies list' and over condemning them.

Prosperity preachers are wrong. But let's not lie or 'over exhaugerate' any claims against them. (Such as 'denying the trinity' 'different gospel' etc)

Hmm,

Thank you 'LoveHim' for your post.

I've listened to Copeland. He doesn't sound like he denies the trinity but what you quoted is messed up.

I'd like to shout props to Krispy for his post.

'We need to mark these people and stay away'

Krispy, nor I, would condemn them. Nor would we enjoy listening to their messages because of all the filth they preach. (I think he'd agree with me on this point, I've read enough of his posts against WOF movement)

My message to Katy was 'chill with the absolute condemnation' of these people. She is sounding like she is the Lord Almighty casting down judgement on [b]every[/b] fault. I don't think any of us would want that on us, even if we are striving to be people of the Kingdom instead of this fading world.

There is no grace in her message. Nor mercy. Nor justice. Because it's injustice. She sounds like a person 'gun-happy' with her discernment. And I'm sorry that's NOT biblical NOR of God. And something to watch out for.

I dont think anyone in their right mind would question the fact that all of you "have the goods" on Joyce and wof.
I dont like what is going on but i believe i have failed to articulate my point.
Like i said earlier i am just a dummie with an opinion.
At best i could only hope to put a little water on fire. I think I picked up the wrong can.
.........David

Brother David,

I don't think you've failed to make your point. I'm sure most, if not all, of us get it.

Let me ask you a questions, how would you present Mr. Hagin to someone that asked you concerning his doctrine? If you would indulge me this one question. Caus' maybe we [u]don't[/u] get it. I want to take the low road and submit to you. How would you explain your position against the teaching? And how would you answer any questions directed at the teacher of the erroneous doctrine?

PS Please stop the insinuations that we are attackers and accusers. You are putting us in the same boat with Satan. Thus doing the same thing you are "accusing" us of doing. You are making us out to be hunters, chasing and cornering some wounded animal. Those who teach this doctrine know exactly what others that oppose their doctrine teach and the scriptures that we use to support our position. So, please stop behaving as if they are these innocent people that just don't know better and need a defense. They made a decision to follow a path of doctrine. And those of us who oppose it are simply pointing out the error. I've listen to the Creflo's of the world make lite of poverty and sickness. Often, those in these conditions are made to feel less than and faithless. Yet does Creflo care that someone is being offended by his doctrine. NO! Rather, he defends it and mocks those who are not healthy and wealthy by calling them 'broke, busted and disgusted'. So don't come to me with this 'oh boo hoo, we're "attacking" those teachers stuff. It's a shame that you seem to have missed MY (our) point. The POOR and SICK are being marginalize and cast aside. They are like collateral damage in this war. Does Creflo care? NO! As long as he can continue to reign in his little kingdom it does not matter to him, Joyce nor Copeland, whatsoever. He won't tell you that though. He'll tell you that he is indeed trying to 'help' the poor, by tell them to 'sow' into his ministry their last bit. I can't write anymore. It's too disgusting. Like Paul said, it a shame even to mention the things that they are doing.

Recently, while attending church, Pastor Wilkerson recounted a heart breaking story concerning this American prosperity gospel. He was ministering in one of the former Soviet Union states to a large group of pastors. Many of them travelled miles with no means to provide for food. But they wanted to hear from God. At some point in the service Pastor Wilkerson told them that they were blessed and that the favor of God was with them. To his surprise, many of them began to cry and weep. Later, he learned that they were under much condemnation because they were not prospering the way these teachings coming from America were proclaiming. They thought God was not with them all because of this doctrine. They were so refreshed to know that they were not foresaken by God and that their lack was not an indication of it.

David,

Do you get it?

Brother Suarez

You have me at a disadvantage. I have not watched the videos.Prosperity and the concept of " the child of God does not go through trouble" are troublesome.
Now in hagins Favor I would say the man knew his bible. And i would also say ,to me , Hagin stands alone. He is so different than his followers. He himself wrote a book "Faith Foolishneess and Presumption" in answer to his followers muddying up his teachings.
I am at another disadvantage also. about 12 years ago i experinced tremendous renewal in my walk with Jesus. Well right at that point i had been blasting wof and i mean i absolutely with demonic vengence hated them with every ounce of my being.Because my wife was still in that organization.
when renewal came to my life EVERYTHING changed.My hate melted and seemed like I just loved everyone.well my wife then had a renewal thing happen also and thats when the books went bye-bye.
So at this point we moved to florida. Some really bad things happened there.One of which was my daughter ran away from home and ended up with some satanists.We only had third party communication with her.we couldnt reach her. This was the alltime lowest point of my entire life.I went into the woods every day and cried to Jesus. I would say Jesus please help me can you please please help me? after 3 or4 days of pleading iwas in my shop and God spoke to me. He said STOP IT! Now call out my name in FAITH! So I did.IT WAS AMAZING the whole thing began to turn.God came down.
The next day some people came and offered to help me.Beautiful christian people and I guess God sent them to me.They handed me a hagin tape.
12 steps when faith seems weak and victory is lost. I DEVOURED THOSE TAPES LIKE A HUNGRY LION. Slowly my faiyh began to build deep inside a work was in progress.
I learned a valuble lesson in all this . I dont have victory because things are going well or circumstances are in my favor.When things are nitemareishly horrible and your slammed to the bottom.,I have victory for only one reason Because HE says so.I dont try to get victory or even look for it. It is mine it is part of me and I will never give it up again as long as i live.I believe 100% I damaged my own faith when I attacked wof. This is why i try to steer people away from.........YOu know.
When I was ready to leave the faith I dont know where yall were but it is as if Bro hagin came along side of me.......David

Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that your experience has molded your desposition on this subject. You said you were hating them and going after them with 'demonic vengance'. Perhaps this is influencing your assessment of what we're doing rather than what we are actually doing. I suppose we can deduct from this that your responses to us were in large part influenced by this renewal. ? Do you believe that that season with you daughter was a direct result of your opposition against the WOF doctrine? This just an inference I am drawing. I could be mistaken. I do believe, as with everthing we would ask God to do for us, we must ask in faith, nothing wavering. It seems your crys were in doubt and not faith. So yes, God does have to stop us and re-focus our heart. However, He did not need any of Hagin's books to do this. I mean really, where was Hagin when Abraham was being tested. Your experience has shaped your opinion.

Now, your language is very combative. Allow me to explain. You say things like I have you at a disadvantage. I am not sparring with you. And this is not a contest of wits or experience. What we have been discussing on this thread is very important to me. My responses are passionate for the ones who are un-learned and truly disadvantaged. I love the poor, the sick, the naked, the prisoner. They are the fuel for my zeal. Needless to say Christ is the ultimate fuel. You said something earlier in this thread that is true. Since we can't see each other, it's very hard to gauge whether I am just an angry guy going head-hunting or I have a true zeal and love for the things aforementioned. I hate injustice David. We are no longer under the law, but under grace right? But listen to the law concerning the poor. When a person is reaping their field, they are not to reap the corners. Those corners are to be left for the poor. If produce falls to the ground, they are not to pick it up, but leave it for the poor. How much more now through grace are we to make provision for the poor to pluck from the lives of those more fortunate, without the guilt and condemnation tactics; making them feel worst concering their condition. I believe the reason why God chose the corners of the field was in order to protect the dignity of the poor. Imagine having to go into a field among the workers to pluck fruit from trees you did not plant, tend or pay for. It's embarrasing. The truth is is that nothing belongs to us anyway. The fruit of our lives does not belong to us. So, if God wants to bring someone along the "corners" of your life and pluck from the fruit of your abundance, well, Amen. Remember, the earth is the Lord and the fullness thereof. These word-of-faith people say that blessings of Abraham are what provide us with this sick free, proverty-free life. (Part One of Two)

(Part Two of Two)

If this is true then why make provisions in the law for the poor. Listen to the law again. The law required a lamb in certain offerings. However, God made a way for the poor of the land to obey him by reducing the offering to less expensive things. God is good, is'nt He?? Let's not fail to mention that Jesus said we would always have the poor among us, at least in this lifetime.

David,

We are charged to insure that there is justice in the body of Christ. In Jesus' rebuke of the religious leader he corrected them along these very lines. They were placing more emphasis on Tithes and Offering and forgot justice, mercy, etc. They were not protecting the weak, the poor, the widow, etc. Now to be balanced, Jesus said that while the other parts of the law were indeed more weighty, they were not to neglect obeying the tithing and offering princple. But, justice and mercy takes precedence. This is my point. They (wof) have placed greater weight on what Christ (the One they say they follow and believe in) said was of lesser weight. They provoke many to give what they can't or should not give, compromising their respective family's financial health, all in the name of faith. This is injustice. God is not pleased with this and neither am I.

His Servant,

Brother Suarez

QUOTE:

"Christianity began as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

When it went to Athens, it became a philosophy.
When it went to Rome, it became an organization.
When it went to Europe, it became a culture.
When it came to America, it became a business."

This is what wof is all about. Through the American enterprise systems men and women have made merchadise of the Word and the people of God. I can't even count how many times I heard a pastor, evangelist or preacher mis-handle the Word of God; treating it like some business venture. Now, I am not saying that there are not some practical business disciples that are needed to run a church. I think you all get my point.

Vsuares, where is the heretical statements made by bro hagin? what book and page number. What is his exact statement.Not from a doctored up video or web page .His work books are from the sixties and still used today so it will be easy to find at least one thing you disagree with.
Also if I may ask you a question.Are the gifts and laying on of hands and miracles for today or did they pass away with the apostles?
thanks......David

Vsuares,back during wwii there was an incident tthat happened at an airport.[This is supposed to be aa true story but eveen if its not it is still a good illustration]
A blimp was about to dock at an airport and a crowd was there to meet the blimp and the passengers.around 100 sodiers with full backpacks,rifles and helmets. They needed the extra weight to hold the blimp. ropes were lowered brom the blimp for the soldiers to grab [to help in the docking]
A gust of wind came and the blimp ascended radically.
Some of the soldiers had the presence of mind to let go. Unfortunately those that didnt fell to ttheir death as their grip gave out. one by one they fell. women covered their eyes from the horror. It was unbelievably gruesomee.
soon only one was left. the blimp by this time was so high he looked like an ant holding a thread.Minutes passed and then hours. finally they managed to pull him up on top of the blimp.
when the blimp ws re-teathered a hundred reporters had gathered to waatch him fall. They pelted him with questions and microphones as soon as he got off the blimp. how did you hold on for so long they asked.He ssaid "I didnt" They said "yes you did we saw you"He said well when I saw those guys falling to their death I reached down and grabbed some rope and wrapped myself in the rope and just enjoyed the view. When hagin told this story he said "THATS WHAT WE'RE GONNA DO WERE GONNA WRAP OURSEIVES IN THE PROMISES OF GOD AND EnJOY THE RIDE"
God speaks through his servants. This illustration came to me from bro hagin at that very low time of my walk with Jesus.It described exactly what I wasnt doing.I was and am glad for bro hagin.He helped me . And I am thankfull.He is a true man of God.
.....David

Spiritual Authority: The Word and the Testimony
by A.W. Tozer, 1950

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ... 2 Pet. 2:1

Whatever it may be in our Christian experience that originates outside of Scriptures should, for that very reason, be suspect until it can be shown to be in accord with them.

If it should be found to be contrary to the Word of revealed truth no true Christian will accept it as being from God. However high the emotional content, no experience can be proved to be genuine unless we can find chapter and verse authority for it in Scriptures. "To the word and to the testimony" must always be the last and final proof.

Whatever is new or singular should also be viewed with caution until it can furnish scriptural proof of its validity. Thoughout the twentieth century quite a number of unscriptural notions have gained acceptance among Christians by claiming that they were among truths that were to be revealed in the last days.

The truth is that the Bible does not teach that there will be new light and advanced spiritual experiences in the latter days; it teaches the exact opposite! Nothing in Daniel or the New Testament epistles can be tortured into advocating the idea that we of the end of the Christian era shall enjoy light that was not known at its beginning.

Beware of any man who claims to be wiser than the apostles or holier than the martyrs of the Early Church. The best way to deal with him is to rise and leave his presence!

psalm1 wrote:
Vsuares, where is the heretical statements made by bro hagin? what book and page number. What is his exact statement.Not from a doctored up video or web page .His work books are from the sixties and still used today so it will be easy to find at least one thing you disagree with.
Also if I may ask you a question.Are the gifts and laying on of hands and miracles for today or did they pass away with the apostles?
thanks......David

David,

I am not the one who threw his books away. You did. So, perhaps you should answer that question.

No, the gifts did not pass away or cease with the twelve apostles of the lamb.

Kenneth Hagin - a.k.a. "Dad" Hagin, Father of the Word of Faith Movement, Prophet Hagin, Apostle Hagin.

Almost all of Kenneth Hagin's claims are fanciful and without Biblical support. Take for instance how he got saved. He would have us believe he went to hell three times as a boy and was born-again during his third trip down to hell.(1) The problem with his stirring testimony is that it violates the Word of God. He states he died three times, yet the Bible says it is appointed unto men to die once and then the judgment (Heb. 9:27). Once you leave your body in death it is judgment time, no second changes. Hagin on the other hand, got three chances and on the third descent he cried out to Jesus and got saved!

Kenneth Hagin has been proven to be a plagiarist, a plagiarist is someone who steals another person's writings and fails to acknowledge the original author of the work. D. R. McConnell proved beyond any shadow of doubt that Hagin stole much of his theology from E.W. Kenyon, the true Father of the Word of Faith Movement in his most excellent book "A Different Gospel."(2) It seems dad Hagin also stole about 75% of John A. Macmillan's book entitled "The Authority of the Believer" written in 1932.

This theft was discovered by Dale Simmons while working on a paper at Oral Roberts University(3). Hagin was confronted about this theft and made few changes in subsequent editions of that book. He has never publically admitted to stealing anything from Kenyon.
It gets stranger! Brother Hagin has also made the claim to have had no less than eight personal face-to-face visits with the Lord Jesus Christ(4). His book "I Believe In Visions" makes this statement on the cover "The fascinating personal story of a man whose life and ministry have been dramatically influenced by visions of Jesus."

The only problem with brother Hagin's experiences is that they are all extra-Biblical. I will be publishing soon a book entitled "The Depths of Deception" in which I go into great detail about each of his visions. I do not doubt Hagin had these experiences, I cannot argue with anybody about their subjective experience. However when he says the Jesus of the Bible appeared to him and taught him things that totally contradict the teachings of the Biblical Jesus I have a problem with him and his Jesus. Here is an excerpt from my forthcoming best-seller (my positive confession):

"Hagin leaves his body, has a personal meeting with Jesus, returns to his body, gets taken out of his body, meets a rider on horseback, is given a prophetic scroll, reads it, is returned to his body, then "Jesus" calls Hagin out of his body again, he ascends to the throne of Almighty God. This would normally strain the credulity of most Christians, yet the average charismatic believer fully accepts his account. After the Lord explains the four phases of brother Hagin's ministry to him he is given a special anointing from the Lord of glory:

"Then the Lord said to me, "Stretch forth thine hand!" He held His own hand out before Him and I looked into them. . .Instead of scars I saw in the palms of His hands the wounds of the crucifixion - three-cornered, jagged holes. Each hole was large enough for me to have put my finger in it. . .As I looked upon the wounds in His hands. . .He laid the finger of His right hand in the palm of my right hand and then my left. The moment He did, my hands began to burn as if a coal of fire had been placed in them. Then Jesus told me to kneel down before Him. When I did, He laid His hands upon my head, saying that He had called me and had given me a special anointing to minister to the sick. He went on to instruct me that when I pray and lay hands on the sick, I was to lay one hand on each side of the body. If I felt the fire jump from hand to hand, an evil spirit or demon was present in that body causing the affliction. . .If the fire, or the anointing, in my hands did not jump from hand to hand, it was a case needing healing only. I should pray for the person in Jesus`Name, and if he would believe and accept it, the anointing would leave my hands and go into that person's body, driving out the disease and brining healing."(5)

There is a great deal which bears scrutiny in this segment of brother Hagins's account. To begin with he sees holes in the palms of "Jesus" hands. It is a physical impossibility for a person to be nailed to a cross with the nails going through their palms.

The weight of the human body could not be supported by nails in the palms. Archeologists agree that the nails used probably were placed just behind the wrists of Jesus:

But new light has been thrown on the subject by archaeological work in Judea. In the summer of 1968 a team of archaeologists under V. Tzaferis discovered four Jewish tombs at Giv�at ha-Mivtar (Ras el-Masaref), Ammunition Hill, near Jerusalem, where there was an ossuary containing the only extant bones of a (young) crucified man, dating from probably between ad{ad anno Domini} 7 and ad{ad anno Domini} 66, judging from Herodian pottery found there. Thorough research has been made into the causes and nature of his death and may throw considerable light on our Lord's form of death. The young man's arms (not his hands) were nailed to the patibulum, the cross-beam, which might indicate that Lk. 24:39; Jn. 20:20, 25, 27 should be translated 'arms'. The weight of the body was probably borne by a plank (sedecula) nailed to the simplex, the upright beam, as a support for the buttocks. The legs had been bent at the knees and twisted back so that the calves were parallel to the patibulum or cross-bar, with the ankles under the buttocks. One iron nail (still in situ) had been driven through both his heels together, with his right foot above the left. A fragment shows that the cross was of olive wood. His legs had both been broken, presumably by a forcible blow, like those of Jesus' two companions in Jn. 19:32. (Bold type added)(6)

Brother Hagin attempts to validate his visionary experience by citing John 20:25 where Thomas says ". . .except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails. . ." What Hagin failed to realize is that the Jews considered the "hand" to be any part from the elbow down. On the physical evidence alone the being brother Hagin was speaking to could not have been the Biblical Jesus.

More astounding than the nail scarred palms is the alleged commission that Jesus gives brother Hagin. The purpose for Hagin coming up to the throne room of heaven was to be personally commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ with a special anointing to heal the sick. "Jesus" lays his hands on Hagin's head and tells him that "he" has called him to minister to the sick via a special anointing.

Whenever brother Hagin lays his hands on sick people he will (from this point on in 1950) be able to discern whether the person is sick due to (1) an evil spirit, (2) a demon, or (3) just physically ill. He will know this because the anointing fire will jump (or not jump) from hand to hand! If Hagin can get the sick person to believe this, then the anointing will flow out of Hagin's hands into the sick person and he, Hagin, will know they are healed!

The anointing given to Kenneth Hagin is so special it is not found anywhere in the Bible. He has received, personally, from the nail-pierced hands of Jesus a power not given to any of the people within the confines of the written Word. Nowhere in Scripture is such an "anointing" spoken of. Nowhere in Scripture do we read on Jesus giving anyone the ability to discern the cause of an illness by the physical sensation of fire jumping from hand to hand! Yet does anyone within the Pentecost/charismatic circle question this?

In fact, I find it interesting that during the healing revival (1940-1950's) the main healing evangelists all claimed to have been given a tangible healing anointing which was felt in their hands. Probably the two most famous healing evangelists of that time who made such claims were Oral Roberts and William Branham. With this in mind brother Hagin's claim to feel the fire jump from hand to hand was not hard for people to swallow. Bigger evangelists than he had already been making claims of that nature for almost five years prior to his being "anointed" to heal.

After this special call by "Jesus," the laying on of hands, and the imparting of this special anointing Hagin begs not to be sent into the healing ministry. Jesus rebukes him and Hagin relents and agrees to obey this divine charge:

"I'll go with you and stand by your side as you pray for the sick, and many times you will see Me. Occasionally I will open the eyes of someone in the audience and they will say, "Why, I saw Jesus standing by that man as he prayed for the sick."(7)

"Jesus" personally commits to be with Hagin when he prays for the sick. In fact, many times Hagin will personally get to see Jesus standing by his side and Jesus will open the eyes of revival participants and allow them to see Him. After this throne room experience they head back to earth:

"Jesus then journeyed with me back to the earth, and I realized that I still lay on my face on the floor. he talked with me there a moment and then disappeared. My hands burned for three days just like I had a coal of fire in each of them. Now when I wait upon the Lord in prayer and fasting, the same anointing comes upon me again."(8)

Brother Hagin gives no explanation why they went up to the "throne room" of heaven, or why Jesus did not commission him when He first appeared to Hagin earlier that day. Hagin does explain that this special anointing can come and go; "if the anointing leaves you, fast and pray until it comesback"(9) . When he feels the anointing has left him all that he has to do is some fasting and praying and it will come back. There is no explanation about what would cause this anointing to leave, all we know is what Hagin must do to get it back. Before I go onto brother Hagin's next gnostic experience it is necessary to take some time and consider what the Bible has to say about the anointing and compare it to what Pentecostal and charismatics mean when they use that term. . . .

Brother Hagin is guilty of propagating the following concepts:
bullet\tJesus died spiritually, went to hell, was tormented by demons and was the first truly born-again man.
bullet\tThat faith is a force and will work every time it is properly used.
bullet\tThat it is the will of God for every believer to be healed.
bullet\tThat it is possible for genuinely saved people to loose their salvation and be eternally lost.
bullet\tThe ministries of the apostle and prophet are active today in the same form as seen in the book of Acts.
bullet\tThat Jesus has given His authority over Satan and demons to the Church and that Jesus cannot do anything about Satan and demons.

These teachings can be found in his books "I Believe in Visions, Plans Purposes & Pursuits, Understanding the Anointing, The Believer's Authority," and many others.

"Really Bob, after all, how many people would buy into such strange beliefs?" Here is a partial list of how far-reaching these errors are in the Body of Christ and why brother Hagin was elected into the Rogue's Gallery of this page:

These (and many other false teachings) are distributed en-mass via the following means:
bullet\tOn Radio - "Faith Seminar of the Air" is beaming the Word of God into thousands of homes via more than 300 daily broadcasts in the United States. This program is also heard via shortwave radio in over 120 countries and on all continents of the world. RHEMA Radio Church- with Pastor Kenneth Hagin Jr., is aired via 95 radio broadcasts weekly which can be picked up in 30 states.
bullet\tBooks - Rev. Kenneth E. Hagin and Rev. Kenneth Hagin Jr. have authored 125 faith-building books. More than 53 million copies of these books are currently in circulation around the world.
bullet\tMonthly Magazine - The Word of Faith is sent into more than 540,000 homes each month.
bullet\tCassette Tapes - More than 58,000 teaching tapes by Rev. Kenneth E. Hagin and Rev. Kenneth Hagin Jr. are distributed each month. More than six million tapes have been distributed since the inception of the cassette tape ministry.
bullet\tCorrespondence School -RHEMA Correspondence Bible School has enrolled more than 57,000 interested students since its inception and offers an extensive curriculum for home Bible study.
bullet\tOn Site Bible Training - RHEMA Bible Training Center is comprised of several modern buildings located on a beautiful campus which covers more than 100 acres. A staff of competent, experienced Bible teachers provide an intensive curriculum of instruction designed to produce well-trained men and women ready for the ministry of the Gospel. Since the 1974-75 charter class graduated 58 students, RHEMA has provided solid, Bible-based training to more than 16,500 graduates. The second-year curriculum was added in 1978-79. RHEMA's average annual enrollment is 1,800 with graduating classes of 750-800.
bullet\tRhema Bible Church - Pastored by Rev. Kenneth Hagin Jr., RHEMA Bible Church meets on the campus of RHEMA Bible Training Center. A full schedule of weekly services began in October 1985. During 1992, the new 4,500-seat RHEMA Bible Church auditorium building was completed and occupied.
bullet\tCrusades - Rev. Kenneth E. Hagin, Rev. Kenneth Hagin Jr., and Rev. Craig Hagin minister together and individually in crusades, seminars, and other special meetings during the year in addition to their regular duties at the ministry.
bullet\tHealing School - In the fall of 1979, Rev. Hagin began this dynamic school on the RHEMA campus. Morning and afternoon healing sessions are held daily.
bullet\tPrayer Groups - Every day throughout the day, groups of students, church members, and alumni meet in organized groups to pray for the needs of this ministry and the needs presented to us by our partners through phone calls and letters.
bullet\tAnnual Campmeeting - Each July, the ministry conducts its indoor Campmeeting at Tulsa's Convention Center. It has drawn people from all 50 states, Canada, and 42 other countries.
bullet\tPrison Ministry - This outreach offers - free of charge - Bibles, books, and cassette tapes to all chaplains and prisoners who request them.
bullet\tMission - Free faith-building literature packets are mailed monthly to RHEMA missionaries on the field.

(The above bulleted areas were obtained from Kenneth Hagin's web-page)

Literally hundreds of thousands of people are being influenced by this man's heretical teachings, which are now being propagated by his son and grandson and thousands of Rhema graduates in thousands of Rhema churches around the world. Brother Hagin has duplicated himself thousands of times over and his error is widespread.

May the Lord God continue to raise up an army of voices to speak out against heresy and offer the people of God a balanced spiritual diet of the true Word of God.

1. Hagin, Kenneth, I Believe In Visions, pg. 13

2. McConnell, D.R., A Differnt Gospel, pages 6-11

3. McConnell, D.R., A Different Gospel, pg. 67

4. Hagin, Kenneth, I Believe In Visions, Faith Library, 1994

5. Hagin, Kenneth H. "I Believe In Visions." Harrison House. Seventh Edition. 1994 Pg. 54-55

6. The New Bible Dictionary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.) 1962.

7. Hagin, Kenneth H. "I Believe In Visions." Harrison House. Seventh Edition. 1994. Pg. 54

8. Ibid. Pg. 55

9. Ibid. Pg. 56

[url=http://www.discernment.org/last.htm]Source[/url]

I would regrettably remind you that Kenneth Hagin is the man who ushered in "holy laughter" as well as was mentor to many who took part in the Toronto Blessing. I personally visited a church the same week that his instruction on holy laughter was taught via satellite. During the service holy laughter "broke" out and I was sitting there dumbfounded at the event. Honestly, it was the most unholy and demonic thing I have ever felt around me. He has taught extremes and excesses that are unbiblical and personally destructive to believers. I personally believe in all of the gifts of the spirit and believe that they are operational today and that men like him discourage many from believing in this power of God because of their excesses. His teachings and the resulting many misguided followers are a perfect illustration of the biblical illiteracy that we see in our society and churches today and the tragic consequences of that illiteracy. Lastly, because someone has blessed you in certain times of your life doesn't mean that you should trust them unwaveringly all of your life.

During the service holy laughter "broke" out and I was sitting there dumbfounded at the event. Honestly, it was the most unholy and demonic thing I have ever felt around me.

My mother was reading about the lives of Charles and John Wesley once and discovered that before their converions they both experienced this "holy" laughter and they both attributed it to the devil. That was years ago and I don't remember what book she was reading so it makes for a kinda weak argument. But there it is anyway.

David,

Earlier in your responses you said that you were trying to pour a little water on this fire but you pick up the wrong can. I assume you meant that instead of a can of water you "mistakenly" used kerosine. You know what? Judging by most of your responses, it seems you did not desire to pour water. You have never aptly addressed any of the questions or comments made by many here. Instead, most of your responses have been side-steps and changing of subjects. You have not answered any of my questions whatsoever. Nor have you addressed or commented concerning any of my comments. It seems you are just stirring the soup pot with no real desire to reason and agree or disagree. It's unfortunate.

To me I am amazed that this thread has gone on as long as it has.

Eph 4:14 - Show Context
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1Ti 1:10 - Show Context
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Are we not wise to test everything that we hear.
I grew up in a church and school where I had to survive the holy laughter and the toronto blessing and thought it was a joke.
I remember telling my friends at the other school what was going on.

2Ti 4:3 - Show Context
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

There are so many warnings in the bible about false teachers and false prophets. I want to have a deeper love for the true and the real and the good.

Php 4:8 - Show Context
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

I work in the christian bookshop and see many of these authors come and go. They have more books but do not help the people that read them but confuse them

1Ti 6:10 - Show Context
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jude 1:8-14
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

2 Peter
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, F8 and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean F9 escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

1 Timothy
4 He is proud, F11 knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
,

it says in timothy withdraw thyself is that any more plain or clear.

James 5:1-11
1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. 4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. 5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

I love jesus and I know I need him because I am a mess
Like Art Katz said the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.

Joh 16:13 - Show Context
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 Thessalonians 5
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is
good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

1 John 4
4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Joh 16:14 - Show Context
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you

We need to be wise as serpents yet as gentle as doves. We need Jesus
Dom

Amen and Amen, Dom.
The Bible gives us all the answer we need.
God Bless all
Nellie

hmmhmm, you go to great lengths to riscreddit bro hagin, your facts, can they be challenged? I may have some info you would be interested in.
....David

vsuares, I didnt know I didnt answer your questions so I went back step by step in your earlier comment to find any questions.
I will answer the ones I found.
you asked if my response was influenced by renewal. I would have to say yes.
You also asked if the season with my daughter wasthe result of my stand against wof. I dont think so. I think the enemy exploited a weakness.
most of you writings you are defending "the alarm over the false teaching of joyce and wof. Which you have every right to do.
If you go back and read what you wrote you asked me how I would present bro hagin.So I went to a lot of effort to do so.I truly am at a loss at your last post
now if I may be permitted you didnt offer anything specifically thst bro hagin has stated that was heretical. I hope I dont come across combative because it is not right or my desire.
... your respone is welcome......David

seanjol, amen to that last sentence, I agree whole heartedly.
.......David

Re: Refuting bro Hagin's teaching.

I think someone else did a very solid job at presenting his teachings in the light of falsehood. I didn't think it was neccessary to be redundant.

One thing I do agree with concerning his doctrine is the gifts of the spirit e.g. healing, words of wisdom, etc. I've been studying the word for some time now, and I can't see where there's any doctrinally and herminutically sound way to interpret the scriptures to say otherwise. And I have personally receive healing from Lord by someone laying hand on me. There's no expiration date, if you will, on the gifts of the Holy Spirit in this lifetime. We do understand that the gifts will not be needed in eternity. But that is then. Now, the gifts, all of them, are still in operation. I think some hold this suspect because of the abuse many fake healers have done. But, this does not (should not) change the truth.

psalm1 wrote:
hmmhmm, you go to great lengths to discredit bro hagin, your facts, can they be challenged? I may have some info you would be interested in.
....David

not so long brother :-) , i did a search on him, you can easy find for his teaching and against his teachings. And you can probably find that on every single preacher and teacher there is, so we need to investigate and i read brother Deltadoms post witch i thought was excellent, the no 1 thing Jesus said to his disciples, the very first thing he said would be "a sign" of the end times when speaking to his disciples was

Matthew 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

often people like to speak about the wars, and about the nature disasters and so on, nothing wrong with that, but the first thing Jesus mentioned was

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

not that they shall try....... and shall deceive.......

take heed brothers and sisters, know the word of God better then anything else. Pray for discernment.

God bless you and keep you

Christian

(if you go back to my post you can find the source at the bottom where i got the info on Hagin)

hmmhmm, ihope I ask this with out being offensive ,It is my hope that we do respect esch other. are the gifts ,laying on of hands, signs and wonders and miracles for today or did they pass away with the apostles? thanks........David

psalm1 wrote:
hmmhmm, ihope I ask this with out being offensive ,It is my hope that we do respect esch other. are the gifts ,laying on of hands, signs and wonders and miracles for today or did they pass away with the apostles? thanks........David

I believe on these , yes. I also believe the devil can produce false variants of these. And i also believe many of these gifts are being "mis-used" and overemphasized in many different denominations,

the only thing that the devil cant fake is a holy life..... i think Ravenhill said that and probably much better then me.

Christian

Thats waaaay too much information about pigs... lol

Well, remember what Churchill said about them...

Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you,
but pigs treat you as equals. :-D

MC

dear david,

hmmhmm is the 3rd person that you've asked (me, visuarez, and hmmhmm) if the gifts are for today..me and visuarez both answered yes.. we are not a baptist organization that is anti-gifts (i say baptist organization because you've referred to some on here as "a baptist" place where people are "bereans" who just want to have the scriptures that support our beliefs). many on here believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but many do not believe in following anti-sound teaching because it sounds good or helped us when we were in a situation (i am sad to hear about your daughter).

it just seems that whenever we tell you what they teach that is anti-biblical, you want proof. then when proof is given, you switch thoughts and focus.. i'm not trying to be mean, it just seems that way from the post that i've read..

ps. i haven't seen you defend his doctrine, i've only seen so far that you have defended him.. is there a reason for this?? i hope this does not sound mean, just asking brother..

hmmhmm, I believe wholeheartedly Jesus has holes in his hands. I believe hand means hand and wine means wine and not grapejuice.I believe the dead are raised because it is in my bible.[ even though my bible says it is appointed a man once to die.] I believe large nails would not tear through a mans hand {I have personally put thousands of hooks through the flesh of meat woking in a slaughterhouse]Trust me ONE hand will hold the weight.The wrist arguemeht is baseless.I would hope that john the revelators vision and out of body situation is ok.
I am interested to know why healing is not for everyone since it accomplished along with salvation. And yes osas is challengeable through the word.
Just a few objection to what you wrote.
....David

i like you David and i pray you stick around here, I have learned so much here, God has used this site to show me some eternal truths and also reveled his son some more to me through this site. I pray he will do the same for you,

i say this because you remind me of myself and i I'm not there yet myself, sometimes we argue just to win an arguement.... or i have been guilty of this many times, God is dealing with my heart and one verse i try keep in mind before saying what my opinion is James 1:19 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

and i so often overemphases so many things, I so easily come "out of focus". But i have learned that God has brought so many different people here, so many backgrounds for a very glorious reason, there are so many people who walk much closer to God then me , and there are so many things i can learn from others, if i just learn to listen , i don't say you do not know how to do this but i hope you can feel this is a message of love to you :-)i look forward to talk more with you in the future threads , one saying here in sweden is that you have two ears and one mouth, you should listen twice as much as you speak ;-)

that goes for me to :-) God bless you and keep you

Christian

I believe hagan was a man of God that was not right about every thing. But he knew his bible and some of what is said about him is true. some not.
I also believe dowie was a man of God but most only remember his fall[Prob. alsheimers]Point to hagins faults and find more and more it is everyones privalidge.Hagin is miles apart from his follwers. He stayed buried in his bible
I challenge the false conceptions even though I dont agree with every thing the man said.
....are we after truth? I know I am.Can what i say be challenged? I would hope so.
.....David

Hmmhmm, you said a mouthfull there.
.....thanks David

psalm1 wrote:

I am interested to know why healing is not for everyone since it accomplished along with salvation. And yes osas is challengeable through the word.
Just a few objection to what you wrote.
....David

one example david i believe is, a homosexual with HIV comes to Christ, he gets saved, does God forgive his sins? yes, can we say to him it is 100% certain he will be healed from his HIV? no we cant, sometimes God in his wisdom allows people to reap what they have sown.

i cant give you a answer that will satisfy you i think, but it is my own personal conviction ,belief and experience that God can use suffering and decease to bring us even closer to HIM, God heals people i believe, but he does not heal everyone.

another thing about this is why did Paul write to Timothy and say he needed to drink some wine? i think Timothy was a man of faith, Paul said i have no one like you Timothy, why did God not heal him instead? Gods ways are as higher as heaven is from earth, we don't always understand his ways but we can be sure of this nd we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,for those who are called according to his purpose.

worm4christ, point taken! I promise to do better. what is your first name?
....David

hmmhmm, you seem level-headed and rational.[not that the others aren't] but i have to go to work and would like to talk to you late tonight when i return.

......David

psalm1 wrote:
hmmhmm, you seem level-headed and rational

LOL....maybe you should ask my wife if thats true :-)

i will not post in this thread more brother, but i will happily talk with you through PMs and in other threads, lets press on brother and encourage each other to be more like HIM and fight the good fight.... For His glory

your brother in Christ

Christian

worm4Christ wrote:
why the constant devouring, the dividing, the diviseness of the Body?

Wonder why we don't have revival?

All of you, quit with telling me what you "stand against", quit with the idolizing of the "old paths", you want "old paths"? Read Acts.

Who cares about Joyce Meyer, the "Word of Faith" movement, "Toronto", who cares?

God wil unveil all, love the person in front of you with the Love of Christ.

"I follow Finney", "I follow Luther", "I follow Meyer"....quit.

Follow Jesus, die for Him, quit worrying about being "right", or "taking a stand for the Lord".

He will take of His business, he doesn't need us mucking up the works by our constant religious devouring and backbiting.

For Him.

Jeremiah 6:9-17
9 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets. 10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it. 11 Therefore I am full of the fury of the LORD; I am weary with holding in: I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together: for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days. 12 And their houses shall be turned unto others, with their fields and wives together: for I will stretch out my hand upon the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD. 13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. 14 They have healed also the hurt F29 of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. 15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD. 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the [u]old paths[/u], where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. 17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

I feel the heart of your words. Sectarianism has never and will never please God. It seems we may never escape man's need to cling to personalities rather than to Christ. This, of course was a problem in (once again) the Corithian church. They were very charismatic and filled with all the gifts of the spirit and were experiencing manifestations of the Holy Spirit (nothing wrong with that). Yet, they were divided. Some claimed Paul, Christ, Apollo, etc.

Having said that, I don't think this is what is happening here. This forum is, in my humble opinion, very important. The New Testament epistles were written for many reasons:

Here are some:

1. To remind us concerning the original faith/doctrine they received.

2. To expose the false teachers and their teachings of that time,e.g. Gnosticism, Judaizers, etc.

3. To build up and encourage us to continue in the faith, once delivered to us, until the end.

5. To judge and condemn those teachers with their teachings.

6. To correct any false doctrine within the church.

7. TO DEFEND THE FAITH OR DOCTRINE OF CHRIST (MOST OF ALL).

This is not an exhaustive list, but it gives the general sense of the purpose for most the letters. The need to bring doctrinal correction and maintain doctrinal purity has always been a priority in the body of Christ. It's no different today. 'Can't we all just get along'. Not necessarily. Not then (in Pauls day when he cursed those teaching wrong doctrine) not now. It is vital that we NOT minimize this. The enemy (Satan, David, not Joyce :)) works by infultrating the body through false teachings. Christ likened it to leaven. Remember, leaven is a type of sin and wickedness. Oh, how can I also stress the importance of this!

Well, JESUS thought it was so important that it was the VERY FIRST thing he warned us about in Matt 24, in leu of the end of the world. So, let's be careful when, all for the purpose of revival and unity, we cast aside the purity of doctrine.

This (doctrinal purity) was, in large part, the inspiration and motivation for those apostles and teachers, during the early stages of the church, to write epistles in order to keep sound doctrine in and un-sound doctrine out.

Consider this. When Josiah read the words of the law, he sorely repented and restored the nation of Israel back to the truth they had strayed so far from.

The word of God has always been very clear and concise. Wrong motive will always prevent those reading it to see the purity and simplicity of it. This has been the problem from the garden in Genesis. God gave a simple command. Man reasoned and fell from grace. It's no different today.

Last thought (for now :-). I 've heard many people put the onus of the state of the church on Jesus many times. And it has always disturb me. Here's why. We have been given the authority to govern and rule in the earth by the power of the Holy Spirit. (To be clear, I am NOT talk about this Domion doctrine, where we're ruling the world through governments and business, etc.) He (the Spirit) directs us to do the will of the Father and gives us the mind of Christ. We have been charged with the RESPONSIBILITY to keep ourselves pure and holy, especially concerning doctrine. So when I hear people saying things like 'he'll take care of His church', what that translate into is ABDICATION.

It seems Adam also took that posture. Adam was charged with the responsibility of keeping and governing the earth. Adam abdicated his responsibility and when God commanded him to account for what happened he blamed Eve. (Didn't mean to go too far on that rabbit trial)

It may sound real humble and pious to ascribe the responsibility to Christ, but in actuality, Christ has put (not entirely) the responsibility on us. We are workers TOGETHER WITH Him to accomplish the great CO-mission.

Remember, He gave US power after he obtained all power and authority, to rule in the earth and stand against Satan, the true accuser of the brethen. We dare not stand idly by while the Devil injects his lies into the Church. We would be making the very SAME error Adam made when he did not correct Eve, the first human false-prophetess, and take authority over Satan, which he (Adam) fully possessed before he consented by taking heed to the voice of his wife and ate of the forbiden tree, which God said he would suffer death for doing so. Sorry for the long response.

In Him,

Brother Suarez

Lets give TRUTH a chance! When there is truth, there is unity.

amen

seanjol wrote:

Lets give TRUTH a chance! When there is truth, there is unity.

amen

amen again! I have enjoyed reading this thread, very good replies and info on false teaching.

This should settle the issue. 25 min audio of Joyce Meyers. It's heresy.

Joyce Meyers SHOCKING doctrines
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=260772221

Country,

Thanks so much for this link. It is most helpful.

Brother Suarez

he was no longer the son of God????

it is enough?????

Jesus was the first human born again????

Absolute Bonafide Blasphemy!!!!

country wrote:
This should settle the issue. 25 min audio of Joyce Meyers. It's heresy.

Joyce Meyers SHOCKING doctrines
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=260772221

yes it couldent be clearer, we need to pray for this woman

vsuarez wrote:
Absolute Bonafide Blasphemy!!!! :-)

are there different degrees of blasphemy? :-) just blasphemy, and then the serius absolute blasphemy ?

;-)

Well, there's BLASPHEMY. Then there's blasphemy. Then there's blaaaaaaasphemy!!! So, I guess there are degrees. :-)

you guys are crazy.. i'm glad that country posted the audio of joyce speaking. the gentleman on there did a good job of telling you what she is gonna say, then he plays her speaking, then tells why it's wrong biblically.

that's even better than talking about just how her doctrine is off. it's nice to actually hear the audio with her speaking..

i guess in the degrees, i would call that BLASPHEMY.

love you guys.

Escaping the theology of Babylon

Wow! thats shocking I have to admit I do listen to her, but I did not always agree with her, but it's looks like my listening days to her might be over.

MrBillPro wrote:
Escaping the theology of Babylon

Wow! thats shocking I have to admit I do listen to her, but I did not always agree with her, but it's looks like my listening days to her might be over.

God bless you brother :)

id recommend Zac Poonen any day of the week, you will not find one sermon that does not have something for the believer who wholeheartedly and honestly want to follow Jesus.