speaking in tongues

i always feel uncomfortable when people speak in tongues. In fact i dont like it at all. When i hear someone speak in tongues it just makes me feel weird about christianity. Now i would say that maybe i need more faith, but i have been thinking for a while and i wonder where people get the idea that speaking in tongues is all this "lalalala, yayayaya,babababa" i mean all i see in the bible is that it was none of this. For example in acts, it says that people spoke in languages that all the jews could understand and that they were already familiar with...so speaking in tongues here was not babalalayaya,anyways, if you read other scripture in acts, it never talks about people needing interpreters, and it never says what tongues sounded like, obviously our only time we know what exactly speaking in tongues was, was when it says they spoke in langauges that all jews could understand. Now of course in other parts of the bible, like corinthians, we are told that there should be an interpreter, but this doesnt mean speaking in tongues is lalababa, and it says that if you speak in a church with tongues people will think your out of your mind so dont have the whole church doing this. now people might say, "see, it says people will think your out of your mind, so it makes sense that lalababayaya is correct. But remember in the book of acts when they spoke in languages that all jews were familiar with and could understand, other people thought they were drunk. so again, no where in the bible do we get the lalayayababa...and if in acts you have people speaking different tongues, for all jews to understand, why is it that its always the same thing from every tongue speaking christian...lalayayababa...thats all i have been saying because thats all you ever hear. I have never heard tatatata. Seriously, i dont think i ever want to speak in tongues because it freaks people out including myself and i have a good reason for feeling this way because no where in the bible could anyone back up thier reasoning for..yes again...the same old lalalabababayayaya. i even heard this lady say a very long yayayababalala and then someone interpreted it and it actually came out to be something very short...now why would she be saying lalalalbababyaya for a very long time and then the interpreter said it was something very short? i think if people really spoke in correct tongues it would be something closer to where maybe someone could preach a little something to a chinese or basically something in a different langauge so that someone who doesnt understand english could maybe believe and be saved, but then again i stick with the bible 100% and i know that this wouldnt make people think someone speaking in chinese is drunk. So i dont know what speaking in tongues could be, but from what i gather, its not any kind of lalayayababa. im not saying its not, im just saying that if i read the bible and have never heard all that lalayayababa, i would definiatley never have that cross my mind. i would probably think it had to do with speaking in a language all people could understand or atleast all people that are around you could understand.

here is an article fom Zac poonen on this issue, this is to me a good article, but its always good to look what other sources say to.

But i find this article well-balanced when usually people hold one side or the other,

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15276&forum=34&4

Seriously, i dont think i ever want to speak in tongues because it freaks people out including myself and i have a good reason for feeling this way because no where in the bible could anyone back up thier reasoning for..yes again...the same old lalalabababayayaya.

You view is different to Paul's who thanked God that he spoke with tongues. Guess whose counsel I am going to take?

Can you believe that in our language, you can make a conversation using only two letters but in our language it is one alphabet. The alphabet is "Ba."

Here's the situation that actually happened & I heard this story from an unbeliever friend. Just before I heard this story, I was asking God whether my "speaking tongue" has any meaning because it sounds like just like "tototo . . . " similar to "lalala . . . " I have this tongue for 10 years.

Scene:

A guy is waiting for the lift to go down. As the lift opened, a fellow Filipino was in the lift. So the guy asked the fellow Filipino in lift saying "Bababa ba?" (Is it going down?)

The guy in the lift responded "Bababa!" (It's going down).

This is not the only testimony I can give you about tongues that seems to be just a bubbling of the tongue. Just because we dont understand it, it doesnt mean anything. There's a lot of tribal languages that seems to be just a bubbling of tongue & I can give you testimony on this.

Just a thought to share, instead of being hard on the things we dont fully understand just a have reservations on this issues until we recieve a greater light on it.

The Lord bless you.

roman

It is important to understand that Paul never took away from there being a gifting from God concerning speaking in other languages. But people who had been to the Delphic priest were beginning to show up in the congregation, and very likely, even some of the priests and priestesses were entering.

Interesting how you try to tie in the Pentacostal groups with the abominations in the book of Revelation. Very edifying. :-?

Honestly, to me. It doesn't matter what any pagan tradition did, or taught. I preach the Word of God, not some 'by-product' of a pagan tradition.

Peter, Paul, and Jesus even spoke in tongues or 'glossolalia'. If they did, why can't we?

Stop trying to find things wrong, in bizarre ways. Just preach the Word of God. Yes, it's okay to look into history, but honestly, you just took a pagan 'historical' thing and spoke against the WORD OF GOD. Watch yourself buddy. Don't call something that is Holy in the sight of God and call it unholy. Or visa versa.

Focus yourself on the face of Jesus and what He teaches clearly within His written revelation, not some pagan 'tradition'.

I am not an authority on the Bible and have really prayed a lot about the gift of tongues. I wanted more understanding on the subject. I was raised to believe in it, but no one i knew ever practiced it. When i continued to seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit, suddenly one day i found myself speaking in other tongues and i was not seeking this gift. No one was there to push me into it. It just started happening. i questioned it and as i searched the scriptures. one thing really caught my attention. I read in Acts about the day of Pentecost and what took place and they spoke in other languages that others can hear in their native tongue then as i read on i discovered that Peter was led to Cornelius's house and after ministering the Word of God they were filled with the Holy Spirit and was evidenced by some of them speaking in tongues. I am assuming everyone in the home of Cornelius was of the same language. (family and friends) It was not a popular thing for Cornelius to invite Peter into his home. What was the need of tongues here among people of possibly the same language? This satisfied my questions and i no longer question the times i do pray in tongues. I trust the Lord in what ever i say and even ask Him for understanding and i have learned so much from this. I hope this may have been some help on this subject. God Bless You Dear Brother!

Well I was considering posting in this thread but its clear that both sides are only wanting to throw barbs at each other and not really study God's Word together in brotherly love. It would be really good if we could really examine scripture openly and honestly, saying things like "I believe this is what this verse means," instead of being so defensive and
dogmatic about our own points of view.

So for now I'll just shoot my arrow into another thread...or board.

Well I was considering posting in this thread but its clear that both sides are only wanting to throw barbs at each other and not really study God's Word together in brotherly love. It would be really good if we could really examine scripture openly and honestly, saying things like "I believe this is what this verse means," instead of being so defensive and dogmatic about our own points of view.

Robinhood, welcome to the SI forums. Please, don't let the lack of brotherly love hinder you from contributing to the discussions. Open and honest examination of scripture is always welcome around here.

We have discussed this particular topic many times here in the past and you may wish to take advantage of the advanced search feature to review those discussions but some fresh thoughts on scripture are welcomed by most here.

In Christ,

Ron

Where's your evidence that Jesus, Peter, or Paul spoke in unintelligble gibberish? Scripture please.

tongues,1100 1Co 14:18 I thank2168 my3450 God,2316 I speak2980 with tongues1100 more3123 than ye5216 all:3956

G1100
γλῶσσα
glōssa
Thayer Definition:
1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
1a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity

There is none for Jesus, however one could make an arguement out of the prophets if one wanted to go through the trouble, I don't have the time to do so.

Paul was speaking to the Corinthians specifically, not to Christians generally, about tongues

He wasn't encouraging people everywhere to speak unintelligble gibberish, he patiently compomised some of their "bad habits", like glossolalia,

Beside all this, the glossolalia (unintelligable gibberish) of which Paul speaks has nothing in common with the tongues spoken of in Acts where the speakers are understood in various foreign languages.

There is absolutely no 'reason' at all to surmise that the priestesses of the Delphic oracle had begun to attend the meetings in Corinth. It is sheer and wild speculation.

What are the fruits? Speaking in tongues? Prophesying? Signs and wonders?

Or loving and caring for the widows, the single mothers, the fatherless, the poor, the disadvantaged?

Both in a true New Testament atmosphere. You cannot pit the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit against the fruit of the Spirit. It is the same Spirit. And it is highly unfair and unreasonable to cast off all who speak in tongues as flakes just because of the excesses in these areas. What a wonderful strategy of the enemy? Stigmatize the gifts of the Spirit so folk will consider themselves the more spiritual because they don't operate in them. :-?

I recently came across an ex-charismatic who felt convinced that tongues are not from God and he asked God to withdraw the gift. He never spoke in tongues again.

I do not think this is recommendable.

With the gifts of the Holy Spirit I believe God knew that there would a counterfeit or extreme views on this subject. There are also false fruit of the Spirit. The gift of tongues and other gifts is even given to new believers, fruit takes more time to develop. It needs a well functioning healthy body of Christ to use the gifts of the spirit propperly. Then they become what they are intend to be - a powerful, supernatural gift of God to believers and unbelievers.

May I again recommend "hmmhmm" s link to Zac Poonens article on the gift of tongues. He goes through all of the references in with great detail and I sense he applies a great deal of wisdom in it.

1 Cor. 14:39: "Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues."

Philip

I recently came across an ex-charismatic who felt convinced that tongues are not from God and he asked God to withdraw the gift. He never spoke in tongues again.

I think that philologos wrote correctly when he made this comment: They were not unintelligible to God and to attribute 'speaking in the Spirit' as gibberish is getting too close to attributing the work of God to demons and we know the repercussions of that.
That I believe is not only wise counsil but also a warning one can take as of from the Lord.

I generally try to let love cover a multitude of sins in areas like this because when it concerns the Holy Spirit it would seem that there are so many misunderstandings as well as abuses so as to make those who aren't earnest to spiritual truth unsettled and therefore they move toward teaching which is more suited to thier mental condition.
The warning in scripture Jam 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: MUST be applied especially in our personal prejudicies.
I just wanted to add one scripture for Corey to consider

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

That I believe is not only wise counsil but also a warning one can take as of from the Lord.

I agree with this completely. The passage from Peter comes to mind:

2 Peter 2:12-13

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, [u]speak evil of the things that they understand [i]not[/i][/u]; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
KJV

I think the context will support the warning as we ought not to speak evil of something we do not rightly understand or have accurate information about. Too quick to draw conclusions simply because something makes more sense than something else. This is not how truth is discovered. What makes the most sense is often not truth at all. This is why Solomon told us not to lean upon our own understanding. Information is not the same as revelation. Revelation is an "Ah Ha" experience from God in which we 'understand' something.

If we lean on the arm of the flesh to understand spiritual things we will get no farther than the many wise and noble who were never called to salvation. The cross is foolishness to the wise in their own eyes. If we fail to recognize this we run the risk of corrupting ourselves by our own ignorance.

Okay, so far I've been accused of 'almost' committing the "unpardonable sin" and compared with the "brute beasts" of II Peter because I question the validity of glossolalia.

I don't believe we are directly saying...thus and so , but I do believe that in things spiritual especially in reguards to the written experiences and manifestations of God we have on record, there needs to be a real careful almost awe like approach toward those topics, a fear of God like approach. Having said that, I also have seen false tongues from a young woman who was demonically possessed while I was preaching on the streets one nite, I won't go into all the details but needless to say where there is that which is false one must conclude that there must be a true or genuine manisfestation.

As for the doctrine or teaching of 1Cor ch 12- ch 14 on the Holy Spirit what Paul does, as in most of his letters to the churches, is he educates gentiles who would be ignorant of the God of Israel and the ways of God and the messiah and he teaches them about things that most jews would know from thier upbringing. Paul was laying foundations in everything from ethics to application in the lives of people who were basically new to the Messiah and the whole concept of Jesus Christ. Also rember that Acts was written by the physician Luke who was Paul's traveling companion and most probably Acts was written as a defense for Paul when he was to be judged in Rome. I heard one brother make this comment that no one can read through the book of Acts 3 times without coming to the conclusion on the doctrine of tongues as evidence to Spirit baptism, if that's true than 1 Cor has to be a proper application to that manifestation. In Acts as has already been noted they heard in thier language because God made them to hear, if you can figure that one out than explain to me how God made a dumb donkey to speak with a mans voice and rebuke a greedy mad prophet. Some things are just best left to faith, God's word says it and I believe it.

Just as an aside, in the OT Sampson didn't use the gift of God to the right and proper uses either, so it's no wonder many in the church misuse the things of God.

Paul:

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (1Corinthians 14:5 KJVS)

For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: (1Corinthians 14:17-18 KJVS)

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1Corinthians 14:39-40 KJVS)

Corey_H on 2007/6/13 7:43:49:

the chaotic, incomprehensible glossolalia spoken of in I COR

It is instructive to see the difference in spirit of the writings of these two brothers.

As to Sampson I only see self will and a whole lot of other dynamics that I won't list here.

As for the issue of tongues or glōssa you don't have ears to hear because you've already settled the issue. Unfortunately so have I. So in christian love we both will now part on this subject but we can always embrace on the topic of Jesus Christ, His birth, His Life, His death, His ressurection, and I would like to say His life or at least some aspects of His present life and evidence there of.

I have spoken in tongues when i was very young in faith and that happend after i was born again.Later on i became sceptical about the authenticity of the gift, whether is was of God or a counterfeit gift.

To this day i cannot say with assurance where it came from, i remember one nite all alone i was praying somewhere outside,honestly desering the 'baptisme with the Holy Spirit' and the gift of speaking in tongues. No one put hands on me, i was not influence from anybody, i was aware of the counterfeit tongues and dint wanted to be deceived but i was deadly cincere in my request.
As a result of the fervent prayers at last i opened my mouth to speak out syllables that i had no idea, i just undurdened my heart.

Little by little i began to put emphases of the gift more then the grace and love of God, so i became doubtful whether this gift was building up my soul or 'tearing it down'.

My scepticism increased especially when i frenquented the Plymouth Brethren, i became very doubtful to the origin of the gift and i began to speak in tongues very ralely till i gave it up. It has been years that i dont speak anymore in tongues.
Bearing fruits, being chrislike, and doing the will of God is more important to me than having gifts but the gifts of the Spirit are very needful for the building up of the body of Christ.

Now i dont have any doubt as to my authentic conversion and being born again,that was a radical experiece. Is was The most beautiful day of my life when Jesus forgave my sins and took my burden away and gave me new life, but the question is raised , is it possible for a true child of God to be deceived when he sincerly and earnestly desires a spiritual gift?
Was i deveived by a conterfeit experience or was i just sceptical of a genuine gift? These are questions that demand spiritual discerment, the knowledge of the bible is not enough.

I have tasted the spirits and i have seen much of the counterfeit in charismatic churches and i'm sure that evil spirits counterfeit often the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and many fall victimes of the devil by opening their hearts to all kinds of unholy and deceiving experiences.Intresting enough never fell down or lost 'conscience' when somebody put hands over me, even though they tried hard to 'bless' me.Often i would feel a resistence in my heart, it felt like some ouside power wanted to conquer me.Thanks God He gave me spiritual discerments and in one thing i was sure, i knew the sweet and meek voice of my Shepherd, it was geltle and it spoke peace to my heart, and not like the wild and aggressive 'fire' that wanted to conquer by force my heart.

I still believe in all the gifts of the Spirit, divers tongues are included (be it praying in the spirit in tongues - for your personal edification, or speaking foreign languages or speaking divers tongues in the church but interpreted so that the message could be intelligible and edifying)and if the Spirit wills and gives me such a gift i will readily receive it, or if what i received years ago be anauthentic gift then i have to stirr it up as He enables and empowers.

My experiences i think have tought be something.I have now a more balanced view of the spiritual gifts but i want always to seek first of all the greatest of gifts LOVE without each all others avail nothing.

Hey everybody, i had to download the whole thread in pdf first for me to keep track with whats happening. I think it would have been helpful if we all read the article by Zacc Poonen. to me it sheds light on a lot of areas, not to mention sufficient scripture backing. so let me recommend all those that have not read it to do so NOW!. its long but its worth it.

I believe God's purpose, even sometimes allowing us to be deceived for a season, is usually to teach us discernment and to lean hard on Him.

The counterfeits only proves that the genuine is true, otherwise why will the devil imitate something tht doesnt exist.
But more sure then our experiences is the word of God and the bible is very clear about the tongues i dont have any doubts to its exercise today by God's children.

The theory of secession is a myth that some theologians have invented.I cant even belief how is possible to belief that such a gift or other suppernatural gifts ceissed after the first century or the postapostolic period.

Some read 1Corinthians 13 as to mean that all these supernatural gifts or extraordinary gifts passed away after the bible was completed, that's total missinterpretation, verses 9-10, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.The perfect it will be in Heaven, knowledge has not ceissed ect,.

Others are more tolerant in accepting all the gifts as valuable today but they only accept one aspect of tongues that is other languages (foreign) and deny the existence of praying tongue for personal edification.May be often they come up of this kind of interpretation as an reaction to the counterfeit gifts that is so much prevailing today?

Paul on perpose mentioned at the beginning of the 1Cor 13:1

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

This verse gives us a clue of the diversity of tongues that is is not only human languages but heavenly languages too.
verses 27-28

If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

If somebody speaks to God in tongues, he speaks misteries from the spirit that only God understands and i believe these misteries are given in heavenly tongues.

Let me end with the words of Apostle, "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts" and "So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues."

It is instructive to see the difference between topical and expositional teaching.

Corey_H wrote:
And no one has yet explained why the tongues in Acts, Chapter 2, is so remarkably different than that in II Corinthians

Welcome COUNTYMOUNTY!

COUNTYMOUNTY wrote:When my daughter was born she began to communicate with me with words and groans that could not be uttered. It was still communication but not words. I was still able to get the jist of what she wanted. Hungry, sleepy, diaper problems... as she got older she started using words like "baba" interpreted bottle. She was still effective in her commumication but she did not yet speak the true language of her father. As she is now 6 she can speak to me in a complete dialog which i understand or she can still cry out to me. Both of which are effective forms of communication.
When a new believer first receives the gift of tongues it may not be a complete dialect. why? For years they have known only english (or whatever language) but its odd for them to "pray without understanding- without their mind unfruitful" but this doesnt mean its fake or un effective. It is only firstfruits
I tend to lean (now this is just me) toward the view of a Christian who has this gift and has used it for years will probably not still sound like a baby chatter. If so (now this is just my view) It could be that this particular believer really has no prayer life and knows that he or she can mask that by speaking a balabala chapa chapa (baby chatter) I'm in no way saying that bala bala lala is not an effective prayer.
So as the Spirit leads you to allow your mouth to be used by him... if it first comes out as baby sonding chatter continue that. I belive that is the first fruits of the spirit. And as you mature you will find that your prayer language will develop into a beautiful and usefull tool (if you will allow me to use that term)

Nonsence!

Example:
When a new christian starts out when the Gift of Miricals come upon him, it may not be a complete Mirical. why? For years they have known only reality but this doesnt mean its fake or un effective. It is only firstfruits because that is the first fruits of the spirit. And as you mature you will find that your Miricals will develop into a beautiful and usefull tool.

Nonsence!

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Hia Logic, good to see you!

May I ask why you just answer this brother (I think he is?), with just "nonsense!".

It is not to be taken personaly, I I was saying is, that it made no sence. I answered "nonsense" as a descriptive critique, because that is what it is.

Put his example of tongues with any other gift and it falls apart to make no sence.

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Have you ever given a message in tongues at Church ? Or a Prophecy in the middle of a Service ? Or gave an interpretation ?

I think y'all do not understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is not a one time thing.

Baptize just means to be overwelmed, overcome, emersed.
[b]Rom 6:3[/b] [color=990000]Know ye not, that so many of us as were overcome by Jesus Christ were overwelmed with his death?[/color]

If you have, then do you know what that person feels or goes through the 'first' time they do? They are so scared to death until they get used to it, that it is Not perfect, but yet, God in His great understanding blesses their obedience to "pull off something so out of the ordinary". ha

If one is fearing to speak out in a tongue, they should not.
The tongue isn't the act, but the Spirit moving.
It should only come from love, not compulsion.

If a Word of Knowlege or of Wisom must be perfect, so must the tongue.

I've known many people who only got either one word or just a few at first when baptised in The Spirit, but as they became more comfortable with it in prayer, their prayer language became more beautiful.

Yes, the gift of prophecy needs maturing. It's not natural to us to have the Lord speak through us like that. It's scarey to say the least, to take that leap of faith that it's really HIM and not something from our imagination or own mind and you don't know until you let 'er rip and the others discern or judge if it's from God or not.

You think the prophets of old, their prophesies matured?
It shouldn't be scary but comforting.

My friend who prophesied to his co-workers about an earthquake was acurate and mature.

An encouraging prophesy must be accurate and mature, because it isn't the person who does the prophesying, but the Spirit within him.

One will definatly know if it truly is HIM and not something from our imagination or own mind and you don't hope or guess if it will be.
There will be a strong overwhelming confidence about it.

Well, that was Old Testament, but now the Holy Spirit directs and guides people new to the gifts and they aren't perfect or perfected at first use.

My Pastor lead a wife of a wich Dr. in south Africa to the Lord, she was afraid that her wich Dr. husband will kill her because of her faith.

She knew abdolutly no English, but when she got saved, she spoke elequnt English "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD."

She did not use baby talk. It was so well said, that they thought she actualy knew English.

Same with my friend who does not speek spanish, She spoke elequnty to her freind at a bible study.

If it is not an Erthly Language, it will not be Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda.

It wll sound as a mature language.

The miracle part, I'm not sure about what he means about partial miracles. I only see the blind man seeing men as trees walking, but maybe this new brother can explain if he's seen something to clarify this better.

You shall know the man by his fruit, Trees bear fruit, the man saw men as trees walking.

I have no doubts about it being real, what I have a doubt about is if the people who today are professing that they have it, really have it.
Every time in the Bible someone had the gift, people understood; And everytime it appears in the Bible it was because there was a need of telling the Gospel in the listeners own language. Why would you speak in tongues to a people who can understand your language already?Does the gift in tongues exist today?I have no doubts about it, but I am sure that if sombody has it, it is used so that others who do not understand your language would understand the Gospel, For God's Glory; not for men.

It is also a "private" prayer language, for when one is alone and praying, he speaks not to men, but unto God (1Corinth 14:2)

However, no one chooses to speak/pray in tongues just as no one chooses to have a Word of Knowledge or Wisdom, no one chooses to heal, do miracles, discern, prophesy, nor have the gift of faith.

One can not plan on speaking/pray in tongues, can not be induced.

Greetings Dear saints in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Reconciled to the Father. AMEN.

Bro Corey
it seems to me the difference between Pentecost and Corinth was that at Pentecost, the believers were operating out of One Spirit and one Mind as One Body and at Corinth, carnality had entered the Church and the believers were now operating out of a spirit of self-aggrandizement. The gift of tongues which they had was legitimate but they were involved in something of a spiritual voyeurism, showing off. Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than they did meaning the nature of the tongues was the same.

Some have argued that such gifts are no longer necessary but this is a wrong premise. The word speaks about God sending people to speak to the Jews in foreign tongues and we saw that at pentecost. This was to the Jew first and so it follows that such signs would be needed also among gentiles after all Paul was sent to the gentiles and performed some signs among them.

i agree that there are those who have a counterfeit gift or operate carnally and have the True Gift and to discern we must test the spirits. Those which agree that Christ came in the flesh are of God and those that don't are of the devil.

The gifts, 5-fold ministry and all that was at the beginning of the Church still applies to us today and perhaps even more so because we are at the end of the age.

Grace and Peace to you all. AMEN.

GrannieAnnie wrote:
I just wanted to reply back to Logic's post to me, though you answered that ... but I'd just like to add for Logic, that unless one has been used in "any" of the gifts ... especially the vocal ones, which are most of them ... they would have no idea how they operate through a mere human who is not 'accustomed' to being used that way by GOD.

Thanks y'all.

I know how the Spirit works and moves. I know that one can not plan, choose, initiate, or will
to be used in any of them, even toungues.

One does not genuinly speek/pray in toungs daily just as one does not speak Words of Wisom or Knowlege daily.

LittleGift wrote:
I think that it can take a while for a person to get used to this gift. Not so much that the language isn't "mature" but the person is hesitant or fearful (as I was at first), or doesn't seem to have the faith at first to "flow" fluently.

Furthermore, it's not about your "faith at first to "flow" fluently" because the one being used for the purpose of the toungue isn't thinking of his/her self to hesitate or fear.

Do not think of the "Baptism of the Spirit" as a one time thing, one is baptised/overwhelmed with the Spirit every time one is "filled", for that is wht it means, to be overflowing.

The is no humin effort in any of the Gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

The word for "perfect" here actually means completed. Therefore either the knowledge and prophecy of the bible had not ceased when Revelation was completed and we are missing 1900 years worth of knowledge and prophecy that is critically important, or tongues ceased 1900 years ago along with Bible knowledge and prophecy. I think the latter is most likely.

8 ..."if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away ."

Those who claim that speaking in tongues is still operable, must also believe that so is Bible Prophecy and knowledge because that scripture says these things will cease all at once. If that is the case then why hasn't the Bible been constantly updated for these 1900 years to include these new doctrines and prophecies?

If the Bible is complete, then tongues have ceased because Paul told us that when the partial Biblical knowledge and prophecy was completed, tongues, prophecy and knowledge would all be done away.

9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Do we have a complete Bible or not? If we have had one for 1900 years, then you must conclude that Bible knowledge, prophecy, and the gift of tongues had been done away with when Revelation was completed at that time. If tongues is still operable however, you must conclude that there are still critical Biblical books yet to be written. If that is the case, perhaps we are missing a key component of the gospel.

SealedEternal

by Sealed on 2007/6/16 15:14:46

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

The word for "perfect" here actually means completed. Therefore either the knowledge and prophecy of the bible had not ceased when Revelation was completed and we are missing 1900 years worth of knowledge and prophecy that is critically important, or tongues ceased 1900 years ago along with Bible knowledge and prophecy. I think the latter is most likely.

8 ..."if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away ."

Those who claim that speaking in tongues is still operable, must also believe that so is Bible Prophecy and knowledge because that scripture says these things will cease all at once. If that is the case then why hasn't the Bible been constantly updated for these 1900 years to include these new doctrines and prophecies?

If the Bible is complete, then tongues have ceased because Paul told us that when the partial Biblical knowledge and prophecy was completed, tongues, prophecy and knowledge would all be done away.

9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Do we have a complete Bible or not? If we have had one for 1900 years, then you must conclude that Bible knowledge, prophecy, and the gift of tongues had been done away with when Revelation was completed at that time. If tongues is still operable however, you must conclude that there are still critical Biblical books yet to be written. If that is the case, perhaps we are missing a key component of the gospel.

SealedEternal

You're suggesting that Scriptural Inspiration and the operation of the Spiritual Gifts are one and the same. This is simply not logical.

First of all, let me point out a sermon by John Piper where he addresses the issue by reviewing the views of two prominent scholars, Richard Gaffin (cessationist) and Wayne Grudem (continualist):

[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2004/186_Using_Our_Gifts_in_Proportion_to_Our_Faith__Part_1/]Using Our Gifts in Proportion to Our Faith, Part 1[/url]

([i]*Note ~ URL adjusted by moderator[/i])

I'm sure that if asked, most continualists - myself included - would have agreed with Grudem and Piper that what they experience (whether they want to call it "Word of Knowledge", "Gift of Prophecy" or simply "Hearing God's voice") was

(From the above sermon:)
"that New Testament prophecy is not inspired in the same way Scripture is, and is not inerrant. Rather, it is a human report of something that God has brought spontaneously to mind. It is different from teaching in that teaching is based on a written text of Scripture, while prophecy is based on the immediate impression that God is directing our thoughts to information that we would not otherwise have known or spoken."

The main cessationist argument against prophecy today is that if God truly does speak to people, then that would have to count as a revelation on a par with scripture, would have to be written down and added to the Canon. The problem with the concept of the New Testament Gift Prophecy and Scriptural Inspiration being one and the same is that it of course limits the gift to only eight people in post-resurrection history:
Matthew
Mark
Luke
Peter
Paul
John
James
Jude.
Yet throughout the NT, we find that prophecy is operated by numerous people throughout the churches e.g. Corinth, where the gift and others - real and counterfeit - was operated excessively without discernment or moderation to the point that the Apostle Paul had to intervene and establish a structure for orderly worship.

If the Gift of Prophecy and Scriptural Revelation are the same and required documentation, then where is it?

Surely the NT pastors would have had scribes to record what was said, then have it copied and distributed. Furthermore, if God saw it as being necessary and important for the whole body of Christ, you would think that He would ensure the same measure to preserve it throughout history as is the case with the rest of scripture.
Of course, unless they're buried under a pile of ruins somewhere waiting for archaelogists to dig up (doubtful), but of course this is not so.

I doubt that any sincere Charismatic/Pentacostal/Continualist would ever dare regard what they describe as equal, an addition or a replacement to what is already contained with scripture. Of course, this phenomenon is subject to discernment with the innerant, infallible and inspired Scripture as the yardstick. Anyone that does claim to have any insight that should act as an addition or replacement to what is within scripture obviously is not acting under the Holy Spirit.

With that said, you're probably asking "but is it for today, or did it stop in the first century? Does God still need to speak to people, even when the foundations have already been laid down with the completion of scripture?" The proof-text used by those who believe in cessation is usually 1 Corinthians 13:

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

From this we can obviously gather that:
1) If love is not the driving force behind faith and the gift of prophecy, then it's operation will be in vain
and
2) it is temporary until the advent of the "perfect".
Now, what is this perfection? Some will say that it is the completion of the scriptural canon, and while the Bible certainly does have without a doubt the attributes of perfection, if we examine verses 10-13 in context the reference is towards believers, us.

In addition, this description of prophecy, the spiritual gifts and their purposes for the church should be considered alongside Ephesians 4:11-16 (which was penned by the same author of 1 Corinthians 13):
11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

Read this passage and consider the following:
1. Is there still a need for the equipping (discipleship) of the saints?
2. Has the Body of Christ fully come towards a perfect unity and common understanding of the faith?
3. Is the church - as it is now - susceptible to false teachings, inconsistent doctrine, man-made viewpoints and deceit (both internal and external)?
The answer, especially for those keeping a watchful eye on the wider Body of Christ should be obvious to all three. If we aren't perfectly united in the faith, and the purpose of the gifts as detailed in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12-14 are to bring us to such unity, then how can anyone say these gifts are no longer operative without making a claim that we are perfectly united when we really aren't?

Nowhere in the NT does it say that the spiritual gifts which are intended to be for the edification of the church are to also be the source of Her teaching and doctrine.

Ben

Cessationists often quote

1.Cor 13:8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears

If prophecies and tongues ceased, knowlegde must cease, too!?

narrowpath

Has Perfection Come, is He in you? John 14:17-20 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

The Holy Spirit is come and is in us forever. Christ is Come and is in us forever. "I am in my Father and you are in me, and I in you."

Christ never spoke in tongues, but He spoke all languages and spoke in parables for those that could not hear the truth and understand, no ears to hear. He is come in the flesh of men and His understanding is perfect and is being revealed by the Holy Spirit to every believer, in understanding. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Again, has He come in your flesh, being the temple of the Holy Spirit and the dwelling place of Christ and the Father. Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

What are His words? Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jhn 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting

Believe on Him. All things become dim when He is the forefront of the believers life. That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

In Christ: Phillip

bro Corey
greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Justified. AMEN.

So you're saying the Holy Ghost can, has, and will descend and lend His power to carnal, degenerate men and women living in pride, lascivisciousness, and sin like the Church at Corinth? Will the Holy Ghost allow himself to be used in a sinful manner by sinful people? For fun?

has the Holy Ghost not descened on you and me in spite of our own carnality, pride, lasciviousness and degeneracy? Has He not come to undo all these works of the devil which have had us bound all our lives? i will not lie to you, i was yet in my sin when He came. Were you free from all those things when He fell on you that you? Dear brother it seems to me that if Holy Ghost tarried until we were free from such He would not come because apart from Him we can't be freed from these things. And yes we can abuse Him and grieve Him and quench Him. Remember those which Christ said He would reject as workers of iniquity? did they not do miracles in His name, not the enemy's name and power but His own power? they did it for their own selfish ambitions so yes it is possible to so do but God is not mocked and such will be exposed and cast into the fire! i can confess that in times past in my own pride i have misused the gifts given to me, have you not also done the same at some point in your walk with Christ? At Corinth, clearly Paul had to rebuke the believers for this abuse. No doubt there may have been some who were false but the letter is addressed to the saints at Corinth, carnal as some of them were. In it we ought to see the Mercy of God which desires that none perish but all come to Eternal Life. Let us not distance ourselves from these saints by failing to acknowledge our own carnality sometimes which must be dealt with!

Noah had to release two birds from the Ark... because the raven didn't come back - it probably landed on a rotting corpse and pecked away. The Dove returned because it couldn't find a clean (kosher) place to land. Same thing with the Holy Ghost that "descended like a dove" on Jesus at His baptism.

bro Corey thank you for bringing this up. Yes the Dove came upon Jesus because He WAS a clean place to land however Holy Ghost didn't fall as a dove on the 120 at Pentecost, He fell as tongues of fire. This means that He came to Purge and Cleanse the iniquity which was there because the saints could not have so done without Him. Jesus was already perfect, we are yet being perfected hence the necessity for the conviction of sin and purging of it from us by fire! did He descend on you as a Dove or as Fire?Were you already perfect or is He yet perfecting you? i was not perfect and am yet being perfected, a life of sin before salvation needs much purging which takes time but i bless God for His bearing with me!

And 5-fold what? Is that like a modern catchphrase... like an acronym or something? I don't understand your Churchianese.

the 5 fold ministry being of Apostles, Prophets, Preachers, Teachers and Evangelists. i was not aware you didn't know what that meant and i didn't mean to confuse you in any way, my apologies bro. i hope that clears things up a bit.

Grace and Peace be yours in Jesus Name. AMEN.

bro SealedEternal

Greetings in Jesus Name by whose Blood we are Reconciled to God. AMEN.

it seems to me that the perfection which is to come is the coming to the fullness of Christ being made in us. That Christ is all things for us, after all the point of salvation and Holy Spirit indwelling us is to see the Image of Christ made in us right? Have i stepped into that yet? No sadly. but like Paul i press on toward that goal to see Him formed in me. Have you come to that place of Perfection? if you have please help a brother out! Nobody is saying that the scriptures are not complete because they are. One thing we must understand about the scriptures being that they are of God, they are like Him being inexhaustable. They have many many layers like their Author whose depths we can't fathom and have not even begun to begin to start to commense to embark upon understanding! As such we remain in need of every gift of the Spirit until that time. What is a word of Wisdom if not to explain the greater depths of what the word is saying to us beyond the text? What is Prophecy if not the telling forth of the Heart of God to His people about what He has said in the Holy Book? What are signs and wonders if not the expression of the Power of God to men in a manner which can't be otherwise explained as it is written in His Holy Book? What are the apostles, prophets, evangelists, preachers and teachers and those who work signs and wonders and so on if not ministers of God who bring forth various aspects of Him as it is written in His HOly Book. as long as there remain unbelievers who are called to God to the Faith, these things remain necessary. i was listening to Willie Mullen who was a Baptist preacher speaking on this and he had the same view as you do. perhaps this is prevalent in baptist circles, forgive me i don't know much about the various denominational doctrines. All the same i was grieved by this because it speaks of an arrogance inherent in man which seeks to push God out of the picture somehow. it is as though we think because the canon is complete, we can figure it out without Him. Perhaps i am wrong in this sentiment, if so, may God correct me.

If the gift of tongues was for the benefit of unbelieving Jews, what of the Gentiles? The Gospel was to the Jew first and then the Gentile. i don't think (and GOd forgive me if i am presuming at all) God would deal with the Jews in one way and not do the same with Gentiles in the manner of signs and wonders as testimony of Him. Then also the gifts could not have ceased because there are yet unbelieveing Jews who need salvation in many nations who also need this display for that purpose. Or perhaps i am wrong there.

it seems to me that as long as there are souls out there which yet need Salvation, the gifts must be in operation but more importantly until Christ is formed in us all to completion and it is evident in our Unity in Mind, Spirit and All Things, we yet need Prophecy, Wisdom and WOnders and such because they work toward that end. That work was not completed in the first century, there were some disagreements even among the 12 as there are yet to this day. until such time as all those are done away with, we remain in need of these gifts. i suppose the Fullness of this will be attained in the great adversity which is to come upon us which will burn away the dross which is upon us as we press into God. He is coming for a Church without spot or wrinkle and i guess this is His wisdom, that He would bring us to perfection in a less than perfect setting amid the chaos wrought by sin so as to say to the enemy "I told you i could make them like Jesus in your face"

makes me say oh the depths of the Knowledge and Wisdom of God,.[i][b]WHO[/b][/i] has been His counselor?

Grace and Peace be yours in Jesus' NAme. AMEN

Sealed wrote:
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

The word for "perfect" here actually means completed.

When we all get to heaven, we will not need Faith, hope, any of the gifts but the greatest of these is love.
And that means that love will always continue.

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Hia Logic, I was responding to your response to countymounty, where he said that at first, the vocal gifts may not be matured yet.

GrannieAnnie wrote:
I know that many many people are shy of or fearful of their own flesh or their imagination, etc., when first being used in a vocal gift, so they need time to gain confidence, that what they may say is truly from GOD.

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Over a year ago, when this topic came up, I exegeted the gift verses to show from the Greek that there are two "tongues" ... one is just a personal prayer language the other is the Gift that is used within the fellowship. Not everyone who has the prayer language speaks a message in tongues at Church. That's not the gift that God uses them in...
...I never said "at will". I don't believe any of the 9 gifts are resident or used at will.

There are alot of people that will ramble on with "tongues" any time they want and call that the gift of tongues.
I've seen/heard some "speak in tongues" for an example, to show someone how they do it.

That is equivalent to this:

Here, I will show you how the gift of miracles works....(((***[b][size=large]Miracal[/size][/b]***)))

GrannieAnnie wrote:
But I do believe that the "praying in the Spirit" is a commandment - whether it is in your own native tongue or the tongues of angels or what ever the Holy Spirit prays through us.