Genesis 1

[color=003333]Hi Moorsey

Thank you so much for starting this thread. I knew about some of the parallels between Genesis 1 and the New Creation but hadn't followed it through, it's a real blessings.

So far, in response I have this:[/color]

Genesis 1 (NKJV)

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

[color=000099]There is a “shapelessness”, a confusion in someone without Christ. Yet the Holy Spirit is near, waiting to put the Word of Life into effect[/color]

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good;

[color=003333] At last! “once I was blind, now I see[/color]

and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

[color=003333] Always He must divide in us between the Light and the darkness, the spiritually clean and the unclean. When the Light illuminates our darkness we see that the darkness is wrong, and He begins to divide us from it. Many things, ways, attitudes, possessions, occupations, even maybe certain friends, have to go.[/color]

6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were kabove the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

[color=003333] Again a further division – between heaven and earth. What does that mean? We are given a new heavenly nature and we begin to see things from His point of view, rather than man’s.

There’s far more there, but can’t grasp it yet.[/color]

9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the ofruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

[color=003333]God begins to make us fruitful spiritually. He increases in our lives as the living Seed works His life in us.[/color]

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the slesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

[color=003333]We begin to understand more, discern between light and darkness. We begin to hear His voice more clearly and get our direction from the Lord, begin to learn to walk with Him.[/color]

20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[color=003333]Not sure, but is that to do with the abundance of Life, the fullness of the Spirit in our lives?[/color]

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man ain His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and dsubdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to fevery beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

[color=003333]We begin to grow to be more like Jesus, and to learn the exercise of His authority and His victory in the Cross in our lives and circumstances. We begin to be of those who are overcomers (Revelations 2-3 etc)[/color]

Chapter 2\tThus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God cblessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

[color=003333]The key to all! Adam began there! He was created towards the end of the sixth day, then night came and he rested.

When all was finished Jesus rested, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit” He rested on the seventh day also, then on the eighth day the work from that place of rest began – Eight is symbolic of resurrection, the beginning of a new week.

That’s as far as I’ve got with this, look forward to others’ contributions.

Jeannette
[/color]

Moorsey asked

Why did God on the second day not declare His work as good?

Because Jesus, the Word and the Light, begotten, not made, is the only Good.

I take a more symbolic view of the book of Genesis than most on this board.

On Day One, "the earth was without form, and void". "Without form", not a planet, not even a sphere, a "void" - a no-thing. No orbit around the Sun (since the Sun wasn't made either until Day Four) and no twenty-four hour rotation.

I therefore don't believe in a literal six twenty-four-hour days like the Creationists.

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." (GEN 1:3-5)

God spoke the Word and brought forth Light. Who is this Light?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made. [b]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.[/b] And the light shined in the darkness; and the darkness comprhended it not." (JOHN 1:1-5)

"Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (PSALM 119:105)

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them." (ISAIAH 8:20)

"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, [b]I am the light of the world[/b]: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (JOHN 8:12)

"As long as I am in the world, [b]I am the light of the world.[/b]" (JOHN 9:5)

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest [b]the light of the glorious gospel of Christ[/b], who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (II COR 4:4)

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts." (II PET 1:19)

Corey_H wrote:
I take a more symbolic view of the book of Genesis than most on this board.

...On Day One, "the earth was without form, and void". "Without form", not a planet, not even a sphere, a "void" - a no-thing. No orbit around the Sun (since the Sun wasn't made either until Day Four) and no twenty-four hour rotation.

I [i][u]therefore[/u][/i] don't believe in a literal six twenty-four-hour days like the Creationists...

I have a question about the “therefore”. What is it there for? 8-)

Two points:

1. What's stopping Genesis 1 being BOTH literal AND symbolic? This is so in much of Scripture - for example, Ezekiel acted out several of his prophecies, and Jesus' parables were sometimes acted out symbolism (such as cursing the fig tree; there's no reason to doubt that it did actually wither. But Jesus wasn't into destroying fig trees just to show He could - He meant something by it, it was a symbolic action).

So what's the problem with taking Genesis 1 as both literal and symbolic?

2. Whatever shape or no shape the earth was in "in the beginning", why do you think it makes any difference to our understanding of the chapter? Creation could still have taken 6 days to complete.

In other words, what connection has

[/i][color=000099][i]I take a more symbolic view of the book of Genesis than most on this board[/i][/color]

[i][color=000099]...On Day One, "the earth was without form, and void". "Without form", not a planet, not even a sphere, a "void" - a no-thing. No orbit around the Sun (since the Sun wasn't made either until Day Four) and no twenty-four hour rotation.[/color][/i]

Mmmm - interesting thing to ponder on – never thought of it that way before…

But I can see no reason why God didn't simply arrange things such as the earth's rotation, to fit in with a pre-existing period of time that He'd just invented!

In fact Genesis 1 itself suggests that the sun and moon were created to [i][b]mark[/b][/i] times and seasons, day and night, not to cause day and night to happen!

God of course has no need of such markers, any more than He needs the sun to give light – He created light before the sun existed.

And of course it’s all symbolic too, as God also intended it for our instruction.

Blessings

Jeannette

Josiah777 wrote:
Brothers,

I guess if we were to step back and ask why was Genesis 1 written, would it be so that God could prove that man was created and not evolved? I think even without Genesis 1 we have ample evidence in the Scriptures that man was created and designed by God. If we make Genesis 1 a science exhibition (and I do believe that REAL science and the Bible are not in conflict), we miss the main point. There may be many true points drawn from it but not the main point.

Jesus said that Moses wrote about Him, and that it is possible to read the Scriptures in such a way as to miss the main point: Himself (see John 5:39-47). If we come to Genesis 1 (or any book and chapter of the Bible) without coming to Jesus for life, we will fall into the same hole that the Pharisees did, and our Christian life will evidence that same spiritual decay.

As far as gaps between verses 1 and 2, I have examined both arguments in depth. Isaiah 45:18 makes reference that the earth was not created in vain. But I see that godly men disagree over that; but that is not the main point either. Nobody disputes that in verse 1 that there was a chaos and when God was all done, He saw that it was very good. We are sure there is a beautiful progress from useless to useful, from darkness to light, from empty and without purpose to full and brimming over with purpose. So it is with the life of the Christian, starting off as a vile transgressor and offender to the Most High, receiving Light into his heart, and God commencing this great work of conforming to the image of His Son. Let us trust the Holy Spirit, whose job it is to reveal Christ (2 Cor. 3:17-18) to do that for us here. What does Day 1 teach me about Christ? How about Day 2 and Day 3 and so on? As Proverbs says, it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings to search it out. God's concealment in His Word has an end of revealing in view to those who hunger and thirst for it. I found much profitable meditation in these verses when Christ is the preeminent focal point and not the other side points (which are interesting, no doubt, and have enjoyed some of these "theological bull sessions"). So I am not being critical, just sharing some insights that have been helpful for me to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Him,

Ken

Thanks for these thoughts, a real blessing, and a reminder to keep focussed on the really important things.

Jeannette

Little Gift asked

1. What's stopping Genesis 1 being BOTH literal AND symbolic? This is so in much of Scripture - for example, Ezekiel acted out several of his prophecies, and Jesus' parables were sometimes acted out symbolism (such as cursing the fig tree; there's no reason to doubt that it did actually wither. But Jesus wasn't into destroying fig trees just to show He could - He meant something by it, it was a symbolic action).

There are a few reasons I don't take Genesis literally.

My first argument:

1. If the Earth was "without form, and void" on day one, it wasn't a planet/sphere ("form") and didn't even exist ("void")...

2. And "days" as we know them are simply a single full rotation of the earth as measured by the Sun (which wasn't created until Day Four)...

3. [b]Therefore[/b], having no rotating Earth and no Sun, I believe whatever this "Day" was, it probably wasn't a literal 24-hour day.

My second:

Genesis states that plants, grasses, flowers, etc existed on Day Three, and then the Sun on Day Four... which seems to conflict mightily with observable botany and biology. I am fully open to the possibility that God could have made plants before the very thing that feeds them via photosynthesis (the Sun), but I doubt He would make things that confusing for us.

My Third:

I've found trilobite (really, really, really old crab-like creatures that lived in the oceans) fossils way high up in the rockies, have seen dinosaur bones up close in museums, read books about them, and I was friends with dozens of geologists, and a few paleontologists... I've taken a few Geology courses, too... and heathen though they may be, I don't believe hundreds of thousands of scientists around the world are involved in a vast conspiracy to undermine the literal young-earth theory of the creationists.

My fourth:

"For creatures of the dry land were turned into creatures of the waters, and creatures that swim trode now upon the earth." (Wisdom of Solomon 19:19, Apocrypha, KJV 1611)

I obviously believe in ID (Intelligent Design), but I'm not a Creationist.

2. Whatever shape or no shape the earth was in "in the beginning", why do you think it makes any difference to our understanding of the chapter? Creation could still have taken 6 days to complete.

Do you mean that you believe that the earth has to exist and have 24 hour rotation before there can be things called "days".

I'm saying [b]24 hours is a day to us[/b], not necessarily to God. To say He works by our timetable, years, months, weeks, days, hours, minutes, seconds is humancentric at best, blasphemy at worst.

If space, the Sun, and the Earth didn't exist on Day One - time probably didn't either (E=Mc2). A rational human observer of the Universe cannot seperate space and time (the measuring of events as they happen, rising and setting Sun, etc).

I somehow think God, being outside of Space/Time, does not need to "be on time" or obey the trivial rotations of an otherwise insignificant speck of dust and water we happen to call "Earth".

I'm awestruck at the thought He's interested in us at all >;')

But I can see no reason why God didn't simply arrange things such as the earth's rotation, to fit in with a pre-existing period of time that He'd just invented!

In fact Genesis 1 itself suggests that the sun and moon were created to mark times and seasons, day and night, not to cause day and night to happen!

God of course has no need of such markers, any more than He needs the sun to give light – He created light before the sun existed.

And of course it’s all symbolic too, as God also intended it for our instruction.

The Light God Spoke into being on the first day was the Word. Light, Life, Word = Jesus. Please read John Chapter One.

I have some questions for you:

Say you inherit $20,000. After you donate 10% (or more) to charity, should you ask your pastor what stocks and/or bonds to invest the remainder in?

If a family member was electrocuted while plugging something into the wall who do you immediately call? Your pastor?

If you're flying to England next month to visit family, do you call your pastor for the best deal on flights?

No. You call the stock broker, the ambulance, and the travel agent.

If you want to know where dinosaurs came from or how old the Earth is, should you be asking your pastor?

I don't mean to seem harsh. Just trying to make my point the best way I know how.

I would advise against trying to make modern science fit into any preconcieved notions you (or anyone else) might have about Creation. Research, ask questions, read the Bible, meditate and pray about what you find. And God Bless You!!!!

Our Lord Jesus is the Lord of Truth. Amen.

Moorsey and Ken:Some great thoughts here to ponder on!

Thanks

Jeannette

Hi again Corey

I did wonder if it would be helpful answering any part of your recent post, but will give it another go, if only for the sake of others.

YOu said:

I have some questions for you:

...If you want to know where dinosaurs came from or how old the Earth is, should you be asking your pastor?

Part of the evolutionary myth is that Evolution, and the "necessary" billions of years, is scientific! Evolution is part of a belief system, just as belief in God who created the universe is.

I don't mean to seem harsh. Just trying to make my point the best way I know how.

I would advise against trying to make modern science fit into any preconceived notions you (or anyone else) might have about Creation.

Romans 1:22-23 says,

[color=000099] [i][u]Professing to be wise, they became fools[/u][/i], 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.”[/color]

Research, ask questions, read the Bible, meditate and pray about what you find. And God Bless You!!!!

As I said, I was steeped in Evolution from a child (as most people in our culture are) and was furious when (soon after becoming a Christian while studying a Biological siences course) someone challenged me that how could I believe Evolution? My anger alerted me to the fact there was something wrong – why be so angry if it was only a theory?

That’s when I went to the Lord about it and He opened my eyes to the many SCIENTIFIC flaws in the concept of Evolution. It was just so obvious that things couldn’t have “evolved”. I was shocked that I didn’t see it before!

The more I’ve read and researched since, and the more understanding true science has about how living things work, the less likely Evolution seems.

This belief system, of which Evolution is a part, is an actual enemy stronghold, that is utterly opposed to God. (Why does Richard Dawkins for example, have such virulent hatred for the God he doesn’t believe in?)

2Corinthians 10:3-5
[color=000099]"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ"[/color]

"argument" (KJV "imaginations") 1... a reckoning, computation. 2 a reasoning.

I hope this may help some who didn't know that it's perfectly scientific to question scientists' Evolutionary dogma!

Too many scientists have been brainwashed by Satan, and have been used to brainwash others. I just thank the Lord He opened my eyes to this deception, and pray that you will let Him do the same for you.

Blessings

Jeannette

Jeanette (LittleGift) said

You don’t seem harsh, only brainwashed, just as I was, into believing Satan’s lies touted as science!

If scientific method doesn't discover natural truths, jets shouldn't be flying, kids with leukemia shouldn't be surviving, and I should never have downloaded and heard the Mp3 sermon by A.W. Tozer... and been converted to the cause of Christ.

If Geology is wrong, geologists shouldn't be so darn good at finding the gold and oil - not to mention dinosaur fossils.

If medicine is wrong, doctors shouldn't know the difference between a sprain and a break.

Turn on the light, boot up the computer, get on the internet, visit the online travel agency, book a vacation, drive to the airport (the kids watch a DVD movie on the T.V. screen hanging from the roof), fly halfway across the States in two hours, drive to the "Creation Museum" and learn how Noah took two tyrannesaurus rex' on the Ark...

Isn't it hypocritical to use all the amnemities of modern science - medicine, travel, telecommunications, architecture, botany, biology, chemistry, physics - and yet dispense of two parts, the age of the earth and evolution because they conflict with the creation story?

If the entire scientific community is under some sort of mass deception, should we Christians be flying in the planes, or taking the medicines, or downloading the Mp3s designed by them? If scientific theory is fundamentally flawed, these things shouldn't be safe at all... or even work, right?

The Theory of "Occam's Razor" states, "The simplest explanation tends to be the right one."

"The truth shall set you free."

If anyone's been monitoring this thread and believes in Intelligent Design but not a literal six 24-hour days Creation, could you please let me know how, and even if, you discuss it with Creationists?

Thanks.

Corey_H wrote:
If scientific method doesn't discover natural truths, jets shouldn't be flying, kids with leukemia shouldn't be surviving, and I should never have downloaded and heard the Mp3 sermon by A.W. Tozer... and been converted to the cause of Christ.

If Geology is wrong, geologists shouldn't be so darn good at finding the gold and oil - not to mention dinosaur fossils.

If medicine is wrong, doctors shouldn't know the difference between a sprain and a break.

Turn on the light, boot up the computer, get on the internet, visit the online travel agency, book a vacation, drive to the airport (the kids watch a DVD movie on the T.V. screen hanging from the roof), fly halfway across the States in two hours, drive to the "Creation Museum" and learn how Noah took two tyrannesaurus rex' on the Ark...

Isn't it hypocritical to use all the amnemities of modern science - medicine, travel, telecommunications, architecture, botany, biology, chemistry, physics - and yet dispense of two parts, the age of the earth and evolution because they conflict with the creation story?

If the entire scientific community is under some sort of mass deception, should we Christians be flying in the planes, or taking the medicines, or downloading the Mp3s designed by them? If scientific theory is fundamentally flawed, these things shouldn't be safe at all... or even work, right?

The Theory of "Occam's Razor" states, "The simplest explanation tends to be the right one."

"The truth shall set you free."

Whatever makes you think I'm against scientific method????? :-?

In fact it's the opposite. My disbelief in Evolution is BECAUSE of using scientific method to discover that Evolution is based on totally [i][u]un[/u][/i]scientific assumptions!

While I was brainwashed I couldn't even understand that, so don't really expect you to - ('sigh!') but it's true all the same.

Your comments (above) are basically ridiculous, so wide of the mark that I can't believe how you can possibly imagine they support your argument in any way.

NONE of the above discoveries and inventions have anything to do with belief, or otherwise, in Evolution!

All the scientific discoveries, and the fruits of them that you mention above, were not discovered through evolution but through proper research and experiment. Many scientists who don't believe in Evolution have made great discoveries and advances in science. Louis Pasteur for example, disproved the idea of "spontaneous generation" (Evolutionary philosophy still clings to that false belief). Or in recent times, the man who invented the basis for modern MRI imaging, that is so useful in medicine today is apparently a creationist. (Do you want me to send you a list of some others - it's rather a long list!)

Maybe if you ever need that kind of scan you ought to refuse to have it? ...That suggestion is [i]at least[/i] as ridiculous as yours that it's

"hypocritical to use all the amnemities of modern science - medicine, travel, telecommunications, architecture, botany, biology, chemistry, physics - and yet dispense of two parts, the age of the earth and evolution because they conflict with the creation story"

As I quoted from Romans, "professing themselves wise they became fools"

Also the Psalm, "the fool says in his heart that there is no God"

Bro Corey, what have you, a son of God, through new birth, to do with Godless philosophies that are basically also anti-science?

"Therefore come out from among them and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing..."

A thing that has nothing to do with REAL science.

You quoted at the end of your post: "The Theory of "Occam's Razor" states, "The simplest explanation tends to be the right one."

"The truth shall set you free."

Let the Lord rid your heart and mind of this horrible false philosophy, so you will be free to do as your signature says (1Corinthians 2:14) and rightly discern the things of God; being restored again to a childlike, simple faith in His Word.

Love in Him

Jeannette