Are you a Charismatic?

I know that some of you will be offended by what I will write, but I would like to say that I do not mean to conradict you, I'm writing this for the Glory of God. I belibe that this is based on the Word of God, so please don't think that I do not love you If you are one, God knows that I love you, just give me the oportunity to show it to you.

Are You a Charismatic?
If you are one, then you have fallen in one of the bigest errors, modern errors, of our era. Like I said before, I love you, but I am also against the so called: Charismatic movement. I am against it because it is anti-Biblical and it is leadind thousands of souls down a street with no spiritual exits. The Charismatic movent will not be able to withstand the eternal "clash" of the day of Judgement.
Why do I say this?
The Charismatics belibe that there is an experience of receiving the Holy Spirit subsequent to Christian conversion, which is usually accompanied by physical manifestations (of which the ‘gift of tongues’ is most common), and who further believe that this experience and the exercise of ‘spiritual gifts’ are the key to spiritual effectiveness. In the midst of it's followers not much emphasis is made on Repenting, but the emphasis is made on reciving the "gift of tongues" wich they say is the sign of the glorious baptism of the Holy spirit.
Do they ignore what Acts 2:38, Jhon 14:17, and Acts 5:32 say? That sinners, idolaters,vicious people, liers and profane can NOT recive the Holy Spirit. Repentance is nessesery first, a heart cleansed of committed sins. Only a true Christian is candidate to recive the Blessed Holy Spirit. The sign that they proclaim(and like Paul Washer once said, I would be hugging you wile I say this) is false and will guide you to eternal damnation.
Please note that I am not comdemning enybody with this.If any body should be comdemned it is me, for the many times that have faild God. But thank the Lord for his everlasting Grace and Love. God bless

dear liveforgod,

if you could please clear something up for me i would be grateful. are you against the gifts of the spirit or against the abuse of seeking gifts all the time?? are you saying that we don't need the gifts the spirit bestows on us or just irritated because of the constant attention paid to the gifts and little preaching in service about holiness, repentance, and cost of disciplship?? if you get time, please clear this up for me.. thanks for the post.

I am sorry my brothr(jimdied2sin) , you see this is what I did't want to happen.I think that there is a little misunderstanding on the subject. I do not see whre it is that I said:

all who are moving in the gifts of the spirit are unregenerate

but there is also a holy remnant who are moving in these giftings and living a victorious life over the world, the flesh and the devil.

If anyone is walking in willful sin they are not saved, and will not be saved except they repent and be converted (John 3, John 8, 1 John3, Heb 10).

I hope this clears up the confusion that you are currently under.

In the midst of it's followers not much emphasis is made on Repenting, but the emphasis is made on reciving the "gift of tongues" wich they say is the sign of the glorious baptism of the Holy spirit.

Actually Classical Pentecostalism is rooted in the Wesley Holiness revivals and is 'holiness' by design. Repentance is front and center in traditional Pentecost. In fact, many of them have a 'hair trigger' view of loosing their salvation. They believe if a person don't life right their not saved- and definitely not Pentecostal. Pentecostal's were expected to live holier lives than most- as they claimed to have more than the rest. So we can't judge on what some folk may be doing now. People who are truly Pentecostal live holy lives and have a strong emphasis on repentance. ;-)

I am sorry for all of the confusion that I seem to have caused(LoveHim).

are you against the gifts of the spirit or against the abuse of seeking gifts all the time?

are you saying that we don't need the gifts the spirit bestows on us

just irritated because of the constant attention paid to the gifts and little preaching in service about holiness, repentance, and cost of disciplship

Brother(RobertW), like I have said before, dont get me wrong in what I was trying to say. I am not comdenming anybody or any specific denomination. Who am I to judge anything, much less anybody?

Pentecostal's were expected to live holier lives than most- as they claimed to have more than the rest. So we can't judge on what some folk may be doing now.

DEAR LIVEFORGOD,

so what are you against with the charismatic movement?? i've read the different post and you said that you believe in the gifts of the spirit and i agree that if someone is born again, he is filled with the Holy Spirit. so i guess i just don't know what you are trying to say.. thanks for your post..

love ya brother,

LiveforGod,
I hear and completely understand what you are saying. I agree with you in that there is a lot of deception in the charismatic circles having been raised in them for the first portion of my life. The baptism of the Holy Ghost and gifts are all of God and there for anyone who seeks God with an honest, sincere, and upright heart. The deception of the charismatic system is that you can have all that and whatever pleasures of this world you desire as well. My mind goes to psalm 24:3-5

"Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in His [i]holy[/i] place? He that hath [i]clean[/i] hands, and a [i]pure[/i] heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation."

Oh, brother. I sure hope this answer would not stir any objections.(I do not want to spend another 40 minutes trying to expalin what I mean) :-)

so what are you against with the charismatic movement

The answer is found in this part of the post:

that there is an experience of receiving the Holy Spirit subsequent to Christian conversion

Why not change "pentecostals" to "Christians".
I belibe that if anybody is born of God then he is a Christian. Because we are supposed to follow Christ in his exaple. Thats why I prefer to use the term "Christian" than any other name from a denomination.(just my opinion).Sorry if I caused any problem with what I have said. God bless

Probably because the header reads, "Are you a Charismatic?" The question seemed to be asking about 'labels' (albeit Charismatic). I certainly don't go around saying "I'm Pentecostal" or anything. No banner waving here.

Pentecostal's were expected to live holier lives than most- as they claimed to have more than the rest. So we can't judge on what some folk may be doing now.

Why not change "pentecostals" to "Christians".

There was a time when Pentecostal's were really Pentecostal. They were chided and made fun of. But one thing that was expected of them is that the live holy lives. Your original post seemed to suggest that Charismatics (full Gospel folk I take it) don't believe in repentance. This is not true. In the early 1900's the full Gospel believers were among the more God fearing Christians and lived very strict lives. They didn't smoke or chew or marry girls that do. Just a light hearted phrase that they sometimes characterized themselves with.

My whole point is that classically, full Gospel Christians believe in repentance and subsequent holiness in the strictest sense.

Thank you, brother/sister(running2win) , That is what I ment since the begining of this post.

It's interesting to note that in genuine revivals where many people are truly filled with the Holy Ghost the emphasis is on repentance and living a holy life rather than gifts and manifestations.

i was raised in an A/G (assemblies of god) church all my life and believe me, this church holds to the 16 fundamental truths of the A/G, but i like you liveforgod believe that this is not a separate occasion..but i still hear it a lot that it is and that we need to seek to be baptized with the Spirit..

Please brother, don't get me wrong. I am sorry if I have ofended you by anything that I have said so far. I am only saying what the Lord put in my heart to say. I prayed that it would not be a reason to strife amidths our selfs. The devil has goten so much territory for himself because Christians are fighting betwen themselfs and not fighting united as we should against The devil.What did the Lord say in Mark 3:24"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
I love you in Christ brother.

"that there is an experience of receiving the Holy Spirit subsequent to Christian conversion"

I think thats the part the poster disagrees with? correct me if i'm wrong.

I myself think the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate experiance,it can happen at salvation,but is still a separate experiences..

I would highly recommend Dr Martin l Jones book Joy unspeakable,which i read when i was confused by the subject..Dr M Jones known for being very methodical, clearly showed how it was a separate experiences imo
aj

ps i'd add that if you dont know ML Jones check him out! He was a wonderful preacher bible teacher,from the reform world,so clearly not someone with a axe to grind

I myself think the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate experiance,it can happen at salvation,but is still a separate experiences..

Oh God do it again! For me and all those who seek You with clean hands and a pure heart! In sincerity and not to get glory for themselves.
Amen.

For those interested I highly recommend the sermon y George R. Brunk II "God's Supreme Position of Power"
He was a man incredibly used by God in revival amongst the mennonites in the "50s.
Sorry I don't know how to make that a link. He's under Misc. speakers.

May I repeat again that my intensions where not to discurage or contradict anybody here.I wrote this thinking that it would benefit, I know I did not express myself as I should have. I'm a 17 year-old boy that Loves God and want to serve him for the rest of my life. Thank you all for the feedback on the post. Please asept my apologies if I may have seem to cause strife between us.

dear running2win,

thank you for your post. i guess my question to you is what do you believe happens at conversion concerning the Holy Spirit?? the reason i ask is because i've been to quite a few churches that say that they believe the Holy Spirit indwells the believer at conversion, but then act as if the Holy Spirit is not really indwelling that person until they have a huge experience like speaking in tongues, etc.

many godly men have had experiences after confession that felt like they've been deepened in their walk (moody, finney), but it's not like they weren't in the faith, ya know..
just asking.. well thanks for writing..

Helo LiveforGod,

Pentecostal/charismatic movement speaking in general has put much emphases on the gifts and power ,while neglecting somehow the cross, the fruits of the Spirit, and this has lead to much delusion and counterfeit.But i think you go to far when considering it as a whole anti-biblical.

let me speak from my experience, i was converted in 1991 when i was living in Albania and if it was not for those american charismatic missionatries, especially one who lead be to Christ, i would have been lost forever and damned in hell.It was December 24th, 1991 (i was 18 yrs old) that i helped my freind to still a car windshield, next day a man talked about Jesus with me and i restituted to him the windshield and the Dec 26th I and the other man went to capital of albania to resitute the windshield to the american missionaries and it was there that after i heard clearly the gosple, one of the missionaries (a godly man) lead to to Christ and i repented of my sins and believed Jesus as my Lord & Saviour and i was born again. What a happy day i can never forget,i was free,because Jesus set me free.

I share my testimony because i want to help not to consider as counterfeit everything that goes on in pentecostal/charismatic movement.

I'm not a charismatic any more, and i can be as much fundamental evangelical as you may guess, but my dear freind i will be greatful to God for eternity that He send these charismatic missionaries to be intrumental to lead me to the Saviour.

I know that there is much emotionalism in the movement and that much counterfeit is mistaken for The genuine experiences of the Holy Ghost, and that many charismatic preachers are leading many people to the apostasy of the last days.

If there are far more tares then wheat it doesnt mean the movement is all a counterfeit, far be it from me dare say such a thing. I believe in pentecostal/charismatic movement there are hundreds and thousands saved or being saved but the confusion the devil is stiring in the movement and the counterfeit experiences that prevail so much that many charismatic preacher promote are doing much harm to the children of God.

It's sad that so much spiritual discerment is lacking among believers today, i better wished to be on fire and zelous for the Lord as i was when i was in that small charismatic church years ago, then be so cold as i am now,even though much experiece and knowledge made me wiser.

I made many mistakes when i was a yound believer but i was alive and on fire, and it was about that time that i read Tozer or Ravenhill and many other men of God, that ispired me to pray for revival and the glory of God.

Blessings,
Redi

Thank you (Elected).

But i think you go to far when considering it as a whole anti-biblical

let me speak from my experience, i was converted in 1991 when i was living in Albania and if it was not for those american charismatic missionatries, especially one who lead be to Christ, i would have been lost forever and damned in hell.

I share my testimony because i want to help not to consider as counterfeit everything that goes on in pentecostal/charismatic movement.

and that many charismatic preachers are leading many people to the apostasy of the last days.

I believe in pentecostal/charismatic movement there are hundreds and thousands saved or being saved but the confusion the devil is stiring in the movement and the counterfeit experiences that prevail so much that many charismatic preacher promote are doing much harm to the children of God.

i better wished to be on fire and zelous for the Lord as i was when i was in that small charismatic church years ago, then be so cold as i am now,even though much experiece and knowledge made me wiser.

dear elected,

thank you for sharing that post..i believe you hit the nail on the head when you said that there is much empahasis on the gifts of the Spirit and a lack of hunger and preaching on the cross..i don't want to generalize that, but i know in my experience, such is the case..

again, thanks elected..that was good stuff.

Lovehim you are welcome, i just shared the little bit of knowledge from experience relating to the movement.I myself dont consider it as a movement born out of revival as many pentecostal would like to say,but i believe it to be more a renewal at its best.

Compared with the classical revivals and evangelical movements of the past, the pentecostal/charismatic movement put the amphesis on power,gifts,miracles,healings,ect., so that the much needed graces of repentace,purity,holiness and the centrality of the cross became less and less emphasied or experienced.

Confusion and disorder are traits that have accompanied the movement almost from the beginning.It is the movement that has been more intrumental then anyother one in the evangelization of the world, but at the same time most reponsible then anyother movement that has lead God's children in spiritual carnality and what's worse spirituall delusion.

The question is not on personal level, because there is no doubt about the authenticity of many pentecostal/charismatic christians but the question is how genuine has been and is the pentecostal movement?

Was it like a resounding gong and clanging symbal that produced little holy fruits and holinness but that majored mostly on the counterfeits?
I am not puting to question the authentic convertions or many dearly loved saints of God who have been and are part of it but trying to discern the true nature and fruits of the movement as a whole.Those millions who claim to be baptized or filed with the Holy Spirit but who dont show any radical moral transformation or peaceful fruit, if this is true then the spirit who filled them isnt holy at all.

blessings,

Redi

the charismatic movement that i know of back in the 70s was a truly gloryous time. the Holy Spirit was poured out on Gods people worldwide.I got saved in 1977 and it was in a charasmatic church. Some had the baptism of the Holy Spirit and some did not. We had an awesome pastor who taught us Gods Word.To this day I have never been in a church that has the level of worship that I experienced at that church.three months after I got saved I recieved the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I will never forget it as long as I live. I believe there is nothing more life changing to the believer than the baptism of the Holy GHost.I have been both blessed and appalled by the believerss of this forum . It almost seems like there is an underlying hatred against anyone operating in the gifts. In my 30 years as a christian I only saw this once before and that was at the Brownsville revival. A church across town trained their members to attack us.They thought they were Gods little army and we were the ones under deception! Where does it say in the bible "The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life" ?......David

Blessed is the man that goeth not in counsel of the ungodly, for he shalbe as a tree planted by the water side, and God alloweth the way of the righteous but the way of the ungodly shal perysh.

Don't these preachers have such a light in them that is darkness? What about the bondage of debt and the false signs & wondres.
Try working a miracle with your hands, when you purely walk with the congregation.
Never let fear go beyond your stomack, just beware of men, for they shal deliver you up to councils, and such swine are filled with voluptous living.

JOhn 9:39-41 Tyndale version with 1526 english
39 ¶ Iesus said: I am come unto judgement, into this world: that they which see not, might see, and they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the pharises which were with him, heard these words and said unto him: Are we then blind?
41 Iesus said unto them, if ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say we see, therefore your sin remaineth.

Hope you want to hear my voice and not going to say a whole lot about the death and hell doctrine along with holy ghost hands baptism after repentaunce of named sinnes.
Did Paul not admit he was a vile sinner, and that under the law he knew of sin, yet couldnot find in his flesh how not to do it.
The Chrimatic group is nothing but naturall and having no spirit, these are makers of sects.

This is not a strange foreign doctrine but it containeth both health and salvation

I am sorry to see so many bashing Charismatics and Pentecostals. It is so easy to critise and cut some body down. Does not the scripture talk about edifying one another and building one another up? Does not the Bible say we are to known by our love?

Sure there are things wrong in most churches and look at the lack of wittnessing. Look at the people just following a religious form - it is in most churches. The answer is for us to fall on our faces before our Lord and Savior and repent fot ourselves then start praying and fasting for our communities and countries. We must all have the attitude that 'revival starts with me'. Don't point fingers at others. Pray for them. Pray for the other churches in your community regardless of the 'name brand'.

hi, before i was a hristian i was a thug who would rob and steal and lie and maim,and afterwards not that much change; some,but really not what you call santified. one night i told the Lord that i was a real good sinner but a lousy Christian and asked for special help in my walk with God. without ever being in a charismatic church or a pentecolal church i began to speak in other tongues and did not know what it was other than i asked my Father in heaven for help and He helped. since 1967 i have seen thousands truly saved and filled with Gods spirit. i have been a friend of len ravenhill but i knew another brother in Mexico, danny ost, who in the next twenty years led tens of thousands to Christ,started 12 churches with thousands of beautifull mexican people gloriously saved and filled with the Spirit in each church ,self sustaining with mexican pastors trained by danny and the staff. one day dannys daughter walked down the public street holding hands with an unbeliever,danny considered this a public disgrace and did not know if he should leave mexico or have his daughter leave,so he sent her tothe states for a few months until she repented. you who generalize about holines yet do not have a clue about what God is doing in the hearts of people need to repent and ask God to put you on your faces praying for those you criticize. if you do not like critizism don't do anything but keep typing on your computer and criticizing. of course there are many snakes and phonies and theives in the charismatic move, they are tares and will answer to a just God for their behavior. jimp

i think that the beginning question of this thread was to ask if the current charismatic movement is preaching repentance, holiness, suffering for Christ, and the cross of Christ or are they putting a primary focus on the gifts of the Spirit..

as far as i read on here, i don't think anyone on this thread that is saying that working in the gifts of the Holy Spirit is wrong, i believe that what people are saying is to keep the gifts in perspective of the true gift..Christ Himself..

let us always remember that the gifts of God are to help us edify one another and build us up until we all become mature in the faith..the gifts should always focus on Christ and not ourselves..

ps i do believe in moving in the gifts of the Spirit, i am by no means against that at all..

Brothers and sisters,
first of all let me say that I think maybe you are misunderstanding how the people that have been posting on this thread feel. I have sensed [b]WAY[/b] more hatred and malice toward those who have posted on this thread by you three than by those posting on this thread toward the charismatic circles. Remember the people here are talking about the movement as a whole and not about the individuals in the movement. You quote the verse where Jesus says that the world will know that we are His disciples by our love one for another but you don't seem to consider that that means the love from you to those with whom you disagree here at SI as well as from those here at SI to those with whom they disagree in the charismatic churches. I was raised in the charismatic churches. My father was truly filled with the Holy Ghost in the charsimatic churches. (Not by laying on of hands, but alone worshiping Jesus on his bed before he went to sleep one night.) There were and are alot of very sincere people in the charismatic movement, but the question is not not about their sincerity but about the doctrines of the whole movement. The peopl here aren't out to tear apart the people in the movement. I've sensed no hatred from any of the posts. Some have been a little strong yes, but still no hatred. Sometimes in the chistian life there is the need to reprove a brother or sisters, or numerous brothers and sisters at the same time, but it must always be done with the love of Christ or it does far more damage than good. So I'm pleading with you, please stop and consider what you have said and what others have said. Let all things be done and said in love.

We must all have the attitude that 'revival starts with me'.

Oh, this is so true! Thank you for reminding us all of this. In prayer I find that I can'tpray for revival for anyone but myself because in my searching for the most out of the christian life God has been faithful to show me that I before that it only takes one man to spark a true revival. A man full of the Holy Ghost and faith, and I quickly realized that I am not that man. I began praying "oh God, whatever it costs me make me that man!" I look at men like John Wesley and my heart cries out "that's what I want and nothing less!" Brothers and sisters, let's shoot for the highest! Can you imagine a whole army of John Wesleys? Granted God has a different task for each of His children but none the less, let's go for the very best!
God bless you all as you seek Him!

p.s. Iwantmore, I need to say that I didn't sense anger or disgust in your post but rather a pleading to consider what we were thinking and saying. Thank you. I need those reminders that I don't have anything to offer God but a wretched life. How can I point fingers when i have nothing to offer God but Christ in me? My own righteousness is as filth to God. I'm not any more usable than anyone else that is sincere and honest with God. Thank you again.

What a dilemma! All of us charasmatics are devils. the baptists and bros on SI are anti anyone with gifts.The catholics are devils too.
This always happens with berreanism gone amuck.
Truly THE LETTER KILLETH BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE
.......DAVID

psalm1,

come on psalm 1, i think brother jim (running2win), said it best that we on both sides need to remember that we are not here to attack each other, but to discuss in love the CHARASMATIC MOVEMENT, not individuals themselves..

i don't think anyone is saying that all charamatics are devils because i believe in the gifts of the Spirit and i have never been called a devil nor called anyone here a devil..

please do not be offended by discussion..

Let me get this straight. I feel attacked by the "berrians" .
But if I say anything. The response Is"I feel WAY more hatred from the charismatics"
am I missing something here?
........David

dear psalm1,

i'm sorry that you feel the way that you do, but no one is trying to say that you're a devil or all charsmatics are devils..

please re-read the posts and i think you'll see that there is no hatred directed at you through these posts..

So the botom line here is "we can use supposition and intimidation agaist you but dont you dare ccross us?"
Idont think I have ever been called so many namess in my life immature,victum,etc wow!
Im the bad guy for what? living? do you love me
......Daavid

Let me stick my neck out one more time. I keep hearing "scripturee","Be like the berrians","you must back things up with scripture".All of which wee must have and do!!!BUT,the Spirit is present to interpret thee word. So where is the highest ground? it is the word as revealed by the Spirit! Jehova witness is an example. Mental gospel, Is this correcct?.......David

brother david,

the Holy Spirit will NEVER contradict scripture and vise versa.. they will NEVER be at odds with one another.. the scriptures testify of Christ and so does the ministry of the Holy Spirit..

the Holy Spirit will illuminate things and reveal new things to us, but it's not new to the scriptures, for it has always been there, just new to us.. but once again, they will not contradict each other..

i hope this may be of service to you..

LOVEHIM, I dont doubt that the Holy Spirit agreess with the word. That is a gimme. The point i make is the word combined with the mind of man can be a formula for deception. The ones decieved are unaware of their deception.
There is no safe ground so to speak. Ahh but there is safe ground . In the meeting of the word and spirit.
I can claim to be a "top gun" of the word and be way off in lots of areas.
I can end up with a mental walk and interprtation of the word......not good!
.........David

psalm1,

you are dead on that the word combined with the mind of men can be a recipe for deception.. that is that why we need the Spirit and brothers and sisters in the faith to urge us, correct us, rebuke us and guide us in our doctrine and practice..

1 timothy 4:16 "take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you"

hi, i have been very critical of critical people all my life :-o jimp

thank you jimp for admitting that.. have you repented of that before God??

if so, i would just like to encourage you to continue to ask of the Lord that He may refine you and mold you into what He says you will be..more like CHRIST.

you know, sometimes i believe that's why the Lord led me to this website, that i may be refined, corrected, and encouraged by the brothers and sister here in Christ..

And you'll notice with WOF teachers, most of their teachings are from the OT. Particularly books like Jeremiah & Psalms. They claim the promises that God made to Israel. But what they do is they miss the fact that God made those promises to Israel... not to us. Not to the church.

God promises Israel earthly riches... land, flocks, wealth. And they turned their backs on Him, and He punished them.

He made no such promises to the Church. The promises we have are "If the world hated Me, it will hate you", "Pick up your cross", "Count the cost", "You will suffer persecution if you follow Me".... etc.

I disagree with you Krispy. On the fact of Romans 4:16 and 4:13

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure [b]to all the seed;[/b] not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Reading Chapter 4 of Romans, in total context of the book. God's choice is His people. Those of faith. The Jews were supposed to be that people. Gentiles are now apart, now larger in %, of these promises. (Matt. 21:43-44)

To say, 'these promises aren't for the church', I think is misunderstanding the grace and awesomeness of God.

WE ARE ISRAEL now. If you believe in Christ, you are now 'Israel'. Through the Cross, we receive all benifits, and even greater, than Israel did. Some benifits are physical markings (persecution). And for others the benifits are finacial wealth (God doesn't condemn money. He condemns unfaithful stewards). God gives benifits on whomever He wisely chooses.

WOF preachers have a lot wrong in their doctrines. But to say, 'these promises aren't for us'. I believe is unbiblical.

If someone wants to go off and say 'Well, that promise [i]was just[/i] for the disciples'. Or 'That promise [i]was just[/i] for the prophets' Or "That [i]was just[/i] for the early church" Or 'That [i]was[/i] then, this is now(reality)' I think it [b]is limiting[/b] God's Word and putting handcuffs on the greatest Giver in the entire universe.

God said it at the end of Revelation 22:19.

And if any man shall [b]take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,[/b] [u]God[/u] shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Let us not give God a reason to 'take away from our part of the book of life' by saying 'that was then, this is now. Let us see the Fullness of God, alive and active throughout our culture.

[The promise at the end of Revelation doesn't say 'damnation' but instead 'less in heaven', on a paraphrase]