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The FATAL TRAP of Holiness Preaching

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Dear sermonindex community,

The following is an article that I recently wrote that I believe is a very misunderstood but extremely important subject. I am very interested in everybody's critique and opinions concerning this subject. I've seen too many true saints of God fall into the pit of despair because of condemnation and guilt caused by an over-emphasis on too much holiness. If you believe in holiness, please... READ THIS ARTICLE and share your thoughts, suggestions, etc.


[b]"The Fatal Trap of Holiness Preaching"[/b]

[i]A solemn warning to guard against the error of extremes[/i]

THE FATAL TRAP IS HIDDEN DEEP WITHIN THE DOCTRINE

Oh, the horror of it! There is a terrifying trap; a sinister snare; a wicked wile; a deadly delusion that a great too many saints of the Lord have fallen into to the peril, and sometimes even destruction, of their souls. This is an issue that must be addressed. If you would consider yourself to be a true saint of the Living God, and you adhere to the doctrines of holiness, then don’t let anything divert your attention from understanding, recognizing, and identifying this fatal trap. This trap is often laid hidden deep within the doctrines of holiness. We know that holiness preaching is Gospel preaching, and there is no other true Gospel other than that Gospel which promotes holiness through Christ, but dear saints, there is an error of extremes that we must stand guard against! There is a fatal trap in over-emphasizing a hyped up view of holiness, and we must take heed to beware of it, because many, failing to recognize this trap, have fallen into this error.


THE ABSOLUTE NECCESITY OF HOLINESS

Before we begin, let us understand that God is a holy God. The essence, substance and nature of His very Being is holiness. He dwells in a holy place, sitting on a holy Throne, surrounded by the holy angels and holy saints who worship Him in the beauty of holiness. Four living creatures, terrifying angelic beings who are sinless and absolutely holy themselves, surround His glorious Throne and say unceasingly, day and night, nonstop, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty”. Not only is God holy – He is thrice holy, completely holy, utterly and totally holy without the least imperfection, blemish or inconsistency in His holiness.

It is an undisputable fact that no sin can truly stand in His presence. Nothing but that which is holy may enter in to this majestic dwelling place of such a holy Being and remain in such a terrifying place without penalty. Only those who are holy will inherit this holy Kingdom. Since He is holy, His people are commanded – not suggested, but commanded – to be holy as well. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Only those who purify themselves even as He is pure in their lives on this earth will ever attain to inheriting the pure holiness of Heaven in their lives hereafter. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God, and woe to those who are not pure in heart, but who live in uncleanness, for they shall not see this holy God in the splendor of His holy perfection.

Holiness of heart, in our lives here and now on this earth, is essential to salvation. Christ came to purchase for Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but one that would be holy and without blemish before Him. Therefore, if any individual is not holy, but is polluted with the spots, wrinkles, and blemishes of known sins, then they are not a part of the true church of God, consisting of His blood-bought saints, whose names are written in Heaven. Christ shed the Holy Ghost forth upon His church to enable and empower His people to be holy and to walk in holiness, so having these great and precious promises, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The holiness of God and the fact of the essentiality of holiness in the life of any true Christian is a blessed and undeniable fact of the pure, unadulterated gospel truth. Let us preach this truth with a holy unction, proclaim it with a holy zeal, shout it abroad with a holy urgency, and march forth into the frontlines of the enemy’s territory with a holy determination, the blood-stained banner of the Lamb of God being raised on high, chanting, “Holiness to the Lord” as our battle-cry, and if we have to die in the midst of the battle, may we die with the truth of holiness upon our lips!


THE ERROR OF OVER-STRESSING HOLINESS

Knowing these blessed truths, however, let us take heed to ourselves, lest we fall into a disastrous soul-dooming snare. We must not be ignorant of the wiles and clever schemes of the wicked one. Oh, how the devil loves it when such an emphasis is placed on holiness that it leads to setting up a standard in the minds of the saints of God such an impossibility of perfection that they can never attain to it. If we must preach, Satan would much prefer that we preach an impossibly high standard of perfection and holiness than to preach no holiness at all, because it is by this that he can get a foothold in the lives of God’s true children through the weakness of their own conscience – their consciences being weakened by their failure to measure up to the standards of perfection – and through this foothold he can begin his dastardly work of tearing down the walls of their blessed assurance and thereby strip them of the faith by which they were justified.

The sad fact is; there is such an extreme heresy that is propagated abroad across our land today that proclaims a Savior from hell but not from sin. It preaches a salvation of forgiveness but not redemption. It teaches a form of justification by faith but not sanctification by faith. It preaches, “Ye must be born again” but doesn’t teach the marks of true regeneration. It teaches that a man becomes a new creature in Christ while he remains just the same. As a result, we have a gospel being spread abroad, which is another gospel (and no gospel at all), that says, “You can live in willful sin and still go to Heaven when you die”; containing a form of godliness that somehow forgives sins but contains no power to redeem from the current presence and dominion of sin in the life of a believer. This is heresy, damnable heresy, and is something the true saints of God don’t want to be found touching with a ten-foot stick, unless they are using such a stick to bash it down with a holy violence like that of Jehu when he went on an idol-smashing rampage in tearing down the image of Baal (see 2 Kings 10:24-28).

However, such an intense zeal to combat this error is precisely what leads to the problem. Zeal without the proper knowledge to direct it is potentially more disastrous than the proper knowledge without the zeal to ignite it. In combating the error of “sin-your-way-to-heaven” Antinomianism, many have fallen into the fatal trap of swinging the pendulum too far to the opposite extreme, preaching an impossibly high standard of holiness. Then, since nobody can meet these incredibly high standards, those who are truly born of God begin to condemn themselves and question their salvation because they cannot meet such standards. Thus, their assurance before God is shaken, their faith is destroyed, and they fall into the pit of self-condemnation.

Some, in attempting to combat the error of cheap grace, even go so far as to preach sinless perfection. This is error, serious error, and must be avoided as a deadly plague, lest we fall into the snare of the wicked one and cause the faith of God’s people to be shipwrecked. What is “sinless perfection”? It is a doctrine that teaches that true Christians live in a state of sinless-ness, having no sin. It teaches that from the moment one is truly born again, they will never sin again, and that anyone who does not live and walk in such a state is not saved. It teaches a standard of absolute perfection, and that if a Christian is not perfect and without sin, then such a person is no Christian at all. It teaches that if somebody gets born again, but then stumbles into any form of sin, no matter how small, then they are immediately thrust back under the wrath of God until they repent again (and there are greater and lesser sins; see Matthew 23:14, Luke 17:1-2, John 19:11, 1 John 5:16). Thus, there is no assurance for the believer in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, or in the one and perfect offering for sin by the precious blood of the eternal Covenant. Instead the life of the Christian becomes a fearful and vicious cycle containing bouts of assurance and happiness when they think they are being holy enough, and condemnation and depression when they fail to meet the standards of perfect holiness.

It is not necessary to take our stand on an extreme in order to combat the opposite extreme. Many, trying to refute the heresy of modern teachings that teach the grace of God as a license to sin, going too far to the opposite extreme, preach an incredibly and impossibly high standard of holiness. They have attempted to root out all the tares growing among the wheat. In doing so, however, they have sadly plucked out a few good grains of wheat. This is precisely what Jesus was warning about in Matthew 13:24-30, and this is what holiness preachers need to guard against.

The reason we need to guard against this fatal trap of extreme holiness preaching is because faith is directly related to conscience. When an individual gets born again, the blood of Christ is applied to the heart and the conscience is cleansed. They experience the peace of God that passes all understanding, the weight and burden of sin is removed, and their heart is cleansed by the living faith that the Holy Ghost imparts to their soul. As a result, they obtain the blessed assurance of sins forgiven. Since a man is initially justified by faith in Christ, and faith alone apart from works, and since the assurance of this faith is directly dependant on the state of the conscience, it is imperative that he keeps a clean conscience before God in order to maintain the faith necessary to believe unto salvation, because having true faith is directly related to having a clean conscience.

If the conscience gets spotted or defiled with any known or even perceived wrongdoing, then assurance before God is stripped away. If assurance before God is stripped away, then one begins to feel as if God has cut them off. In thinking this, faith itself in God as the Justifier of the ungodly is stripped away, and the individual is brought into a sad state of self-condemnation. Their faith then becomes utterly destroyed and justification before God becomes an impossibility, because without faith it is impossible to please God.

Over-emphasizing a high degree of holiness causes those who sit under such teaching, if they believe it, to examine themselves vigorously, over and over, to see if there is the smallest or tiniest degree of anything unholy in them. As extreme holiness is continually emphasized, they continue to examine themselves, and as soon as they find something unholy, they condemn themselves for it and fall into the trap of self-condemnation. They then continue to examine themselves almost endlessly, and their focus gets removed from Christ and His love, grace, and mercy, and their focus gets put on themselves and their works. Their righteousness becomes based on their deeds, works, and performance before God, rather than in the finished work of the Cross through the faith of Christ. Perfection becomes an obsession, and the sight of the Cross is at a loss.

Rather than preaching in such a way as to convict sinners and strengthen the faith of the saints, many go to the error of extreme holiness and preach in such a way as to condemn both sinners and saints alike. Now, this is not to say that a true saint will never need to be convicted about anything, or that we should never preach hard messages. Our preaching needs to be designed in such a way that it convicts instead of condemns, and that it is useful for spiritual growth and not spiritual destruction. If our preaching doesn’t pierce through and cut asunder the hearts of men like a sharp, two-edged sword, then what we’re preaching isn’t the true Word of God! But, at the same time, if it doesn’t apply the healing properties of that blessed Balm of Gilead after it wounds, and bind up the broken hearts with the bandages of Christ’s love, then it is potentially destructive to the souls of men. There is a fine line, and that line is determined by the perfect orderly balance of God’s wisdom according to the leading of the Spirit.

Oh, the trickery of it all! The masterfully orchestrated wiles of the devil! God forbid that we lay anything to the charge of God’s elect when it is God that justified them and they are following the Lord their God with all their heart! God forbid we join sides with the Accuser of the Brethren and condemn the consciences of God’s saints and destroy their faith! God forbid that we, through the good intentions of combating heresy, preach heresy ourselves! But on the other end, God forbid that we fail to preach holiness! God forbid we tolerate any known form of sin in the least! God forbid we fail to stand on the uncompromising truth of the word of God and declare the severity, justice, holiness and wrath of God!

We holiness preachers are walking a tightrope of truth, and erring on either side can be fatal! As it was in the days of Nehemiah, when the men who were building the walls of Jerusalem had to build with one hand and yield a weapon in the other, in the same way, we need to build the Church with one hand to edify the saints with revelations of the true grace of God, and hold our sword in the other to uncompromisingly fight against every sin which so easily besets us (see Nehemiah 4:17)! The enemy is surrounding us on all sides, and when he’s attacking the gates on the city walls, we’re still busy dealing with internal problems and uprisings – danger from within and danger from without!

The fact is: preaching and overemphasizing an extreme degree of holiness destroys the assurance and faith of the saints. No one is perfectly sinless. Ask any saint, any true born again child of God that has been walking with the Lord for a number of years; ask them if they have sinned even once since their conversion. Ask them if they’ve ever committed a single sin against God since they got born again. If they are not blind and stupid to the laws of God, they will most certainly and ashamedly tell you they have. Does this mean they weren’t born again? Does this mean that as soon as they sinned, God cut them off and declared them children of the devil and bound them fit for destruction in Hell?


IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).

The beloved Apostle John, in inscribing these words on the sacred parchment of his first epistle, being a holy man moved upon by the Holy Ghost to record these holy words, has clearly said in the most plainest and straightforward language, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”. This epistle is addressed to saints, warning against various dangers, extremes, and heresies that were attempting to creep their way into the Church in John’s old age, and as a guideline to the faith of Christ and the nature of true conversion.

Let us observe some facts concerning this statement of Scripture:

First, as we have already observed, it is written to Christians. John was not writing to heathen, nor was he writing to unconverted sinners. We know that this first epistle was directed toward Christians, “that [their] joy may be full” (1:4). Certainly, he is not writing that the joy of sinners may be full, but that the joy of the saints may be full, which proves that this epistle is directed toward those who already have a degree and measure of the joy of Christ. Only the saints have the joy of Christ.

Second, the great, holy and beloved Apostle includes himself by saying, “we”. He didn’t say, “If YOU say that you have no sin”, but he said, “If WE say that we have no sin…” This is a very remarkable and undeniably true observation. As holy as we know this great Apostle must have been, especially in the old age he was in when he wrote this epistle, he was still walking in such a degree of self-abasement and humility as to recognize his true condition before God, a condition that still had a measure of sin dwelling within the flesh and that didn’t yet have full and final redemption from the presence of sin (which would take place at final glorification – see 1 John 3:2). John knew that even he was not without sin, and he certainly knew he wasn’t “sinlessly perfect”, as some would say, which is why he includes himself in this statement.

Even the Apostle Paul agreed and admitted to the personal imperfections of his righteousness before God: “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:12-14). This was written at about 61 AD, which was after his third missionary journey. If sinless perfection could be obtained, then without a doubt it should have been obtained by the Apostle Paul after enduring so much hardship, living in such devotion, and following hard after God for so many years, being “not a whit behind the chiefest Apostles”. In context of the perfection of which Paul is speaking, he is speaking of “attaining unto the resurrection of the dead” (verse 10) by being found in the righteousness of Christ by faith (verse 9). So, namely, he is talking about righteousness, and admitting that even he didn’t have a perfect righteousness on this earth, looking forward to full and final redemption, which would take place in the final work of redemption at the time of glorification.

The third thing we must observe is that it is in the present tense. It is not talking in the past tense. In other words, he is not talking about one saying that they have no sin prior to conversion, but one saying they have no sin after conversion. He is talking about sin dwelling in some measure in born again believers, and that if anyone denies this, they deceive themselves, being blind to their own unworthiness in the sight of God.

This is what Jesus meant when He said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit”. Being poor in spirit is not something that happens one time before conversion and then no longer applies to a saint, but it is an ever-present admission of our personal wretchedness before God and of our utter and total dependency on Him. Being poor in spirit is a work of God’s grace, and if this grace ever fails to be applied to the heart of a believer, they quickly stumble around in their own delusions, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought, and soon find themselves deceived and in bondage to a despicable self-righteousness.

The Greek word translated, “we have” in the phrase, “If we say we have no sin”, is the word, “echo”. Thayer’s Greek Definitions describes it as having, holding or possessing in present tense, or to have oneself in a certain condition, and as a primary, present tense verb. Both Vincent’s Word Studies and Robertson’s Word Pictures, two scholarly and accurate works on the Greek language in which the New Testament was written, agree upon the fact that this scripture is written in the present tense. It is also agreed upon and translated in the present tense by every single English translation of the Bible, proving that the teams of hundreds upon hundreds of Greek scholars who have translated this passage universally agree that this is referring to the present tense. There is not a single well-known English translation that translates this scripture in the past tense, as referring to the past life of a believer prior to conversion, as some people falsely say.

If anybody professes to be a child of God, but has absolutely no admitted unworthiness and admits no present form of indwelling sin in some measure, then they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them. This is precisely what the Apostle John is saying.

The word “sin” literally means, “to miss the mark”. Which one of us, even among those of us who are the most holy and devout, can say that we have no emotions, feelings, tempers, thoughts, words or actions which fall short of the standards of God’s perfection? “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:23-24). To sin means to come short of the glory of God, and this is something that sinners and saints do alike (though there is a huge difference between the two). Thank God that the saints are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus”, and not by the performance and perfections that proceed after their initial profession of faith, or else we would all be doomed!

In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus taught His disciples to pray, “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” This is how the Lord Jesus taught His holy Apostles to pray! Just prior to Him teaching them to pray for forgiveness for their sins, He said, “give us this day our daily bread”, clearly implying that this is a daily prayer that should be prayed. In other words, we need to constantly, in humility, recognize our shortcomings in the sight of God and humble ourselves under His mighty hand to ask for His mercy and grace to cover our offenses before Him. If we say we have no offenses before the all-seeing eyes of His holiness, we only deceive ourselves.

Granted, the saints of God do not live in sin. They do not willfully continue in any known form of sin like the unconverted do (Hebrews 10:26). To the saints, as soon as their own unworthiness, shortcomings, stumbles, or sins get brought to light, they are immediately abased and humbled. They utterly despise themselves for it. They hate it! And they confess it, repent and continue no more in it. They don’t practice any known form of sin. Once any form of inner or outer sin is brought to light by the searchlight of God’s Spirit, they are humbled at the feet of Christ, and they “go and sin no more”.

To the saints, sin is their bed of thorns, but to the unconverted, it is their hypocrite’s couch. Saints hate sin and do not continue in any known form of sin, but the unconverted lounge upon sin, and make excuses to justify it. A true saint will continually “walk in the light as he is in the light”, purging himself from every thing of darkness and uncleanness as soon as it is brought to the light, despising himself for it, and yield it to God to save him from it in a willing and earnest surrender, and he will continually walk in victory over all known sin; but an unconverted sinner will hold on to his sins because he loves them, and even if he may claim to love God with his mouth, he will continue to commit the same sins over and over and deny God by his actions. That’s the difference. Saints aren’t perfect, but they are striving for perfection, and while they are on the journey toward this perfection, they despise and even abhor themselves for their own imperfections.

This own self-abhorrence for inward corruption is not a self-condemnation or self-pity. These things come from the evil one. It is a self-abhorrence that produces “godly sorrow (which) worketh repentance”, and not “the sorrow of the world (which) worketh death” (2 Corinthians 7:10). This godly sorrow is completely different and distinct from depression. It is what Jesus meant by saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit”, and “Blessed are those that mourn”, speaking of recognizing our own spiritual state before God, our personal guilt, helplessness, and of the utter emptiness of our own nature of everything good, and a conviction and realizing sense of being shut up to the grace of God alone for help. According to Jesus, this is a characteristic of the “blessed”, or in other words, a characteristic of true saints. There is a huge and fundamental difference between such godly sorrow and the sorrow of the world.

The error of many of those in the holiness crowd is that they fail to ever mention these truths. They preach holiness and sanctification until such a standard of perfection is implied that it is utterly impossible for anyone to meet these standards. Then, those who are actually true saints, but who have an awareness of their own unworthiness and poorness of spirit in the sight of God, begin to condemn themselves for their shortcomings and imperfections, until they begin to question their very salvation to begin with. Dear Lord, save us from this error!


THE REVIVALISTS AND GIANTS OF THE PAST AGREE TO THIS DOCTRINE

Matthew Henry, the famous Bible commentator, whose commentary was both loved and studied by men of such spiritual stature as George Whitefield and Charles Spurgeon, said: “We must beware of deceiving ourselves in denying or excusing our sins. The more we see them the more we shall esteem and value the remedy. If we deny them, the truth is not in us, either the truth that is contrary to such denial (we lie in denying our sin), or the truth of religion, is not in us. The Christian religion is the religion of sinners, of such as have sinned, and in whom sin in some measure still dwells. The Christian life is a life of continued repentance, humiliation for and mortification of sin, of continual faith in, thankfulness for, and love to the Redeemer, and hopeful joyful expectation of a day of glorious redemption, in which the believer shall be fully and finally acquitted, and sin abolished for ever.”

Would be to God that He would use these wise words to open the eyes of many believers who wallow around in a despondency of hopelessness, questioning their salvation, doubting God’s glorious promises, and wonder if God even loves them anymore! See what that great holiness preacher, Charles G. Finney, said regarding true believers who stumble into sin in his classic sermon, “Justification by Faith”:

“See that holy angel, sent on an errand of love to some distant part of the universe. God's eye follows him, and if he sees him likely to be injured in any way, all the divine attributes are enlisted at once to protect and sustain him. Just as absolutely are they all pledged for you, if you are justified, to protect and support and save you. Notwithstanding you are not free from remaining sin, and are so totally unworthy of God's love, yet if you are truly justified, the only wise and eternal God is pledged for your salvation. And shall you tremble and be faint-hearted, with such support?”

“If a human government pardons a criminal, it is then pledged to protect him as a subject, as much as if he had never committed a crime. So it is when God justifies a sinner. The Apostle says, "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God." Henceforth, God is on his side, and pledged as his faithful and eternal friend.”
“Gospel justification differs from legal justification, in this respect: If the law justifies an individual, it holds no longer than he remains innocent. As soon as he transgresses once, his former justification is of no more avail. But when the gospel justifies a sinner, it is not so; but "if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." A new relation is now constituted, entirely peculiar. The sinner is now brought out from under the covenant of works, and placed under the covenant of grace. He no longer retains God's favor by the tenure of absolute and sinless obedience. If he sins, now, he is not thrust back again under the law, but receives the benefit of the new covenant. If he is justified by faith; and so made a child of God, he receives the treatment of a child, and is corrected, and chastised, and humbled, and brought back again. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance." The meaning of that is not, that God calls and saves the sinner without his repenting, but that God never changes his mind when once he undertakes the salvation of a soul.”

“I know this is thought by some to be very dangerous doctrine, to teach that believers are perpetually justified--because, say they, it will embolden men to sin. Indeed! To tell a man that has truly repented of sin, and heartily renounced sin, and sincerely desires to be free from sin, that God will help him and certainly give him the victory over sin, will embolden him to commit sin! Strange logic that! If this doctrine emboldens any man to commit sin, it only shows that he never did repent; that he never hated sin, and never loved God for his own sake, but only feigned repentance, and if he loved God it was only a selfish love, because he thought God was going to do him a favor. If he truly hated sin, the consideration that notwithstanding all his unworthiness God had received him as a child, and would give him a child's treatment, is the very thing to break him down and melt his heart in the most godly sorrow. O, how often has the child of God, melted in adoring wonder at the goodness of God, in using means to bring him back, instead of sending him to hell, as he deserved! What consideration is calculated to bring him lower in the dust, than the thought that notwithstanding all God had done for him, and the gracious help God was always ready to afford him, he should wander away again when his name was written in the Lamb's book of life!” (End Finney quote)

Finney, in the above quote, explains that when a true Christian, who is now under a Covenant of grace, stumbles into sin, he is not immediately thrust back under the Law by the wrath of God. Instead, he is chastised, disciplined, corrected, and straightened out so that he doesn’t disobey His Heavenly Father in like manner again. So, we see that even Charles Finney, one of the most strict holiness preachers of perhaps all time, didn’t even hold to the doctrines of sinless perfection or extreme holiness. He was very careful in his lectures to explain very clearly that a true Christian will stumble into and un-willfully sin against God, and that such a one will be lovingly brought back into fellowship with His Lord through the precious blood and merits of Christ’s finished work. We are justified by faith, not by works. True faith does work, but it doesn’t always work perfectly. It is always growing, always abounding, always being tried, purified, and strengthened. “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again” (Proverbs 24:16).

That old field preaching revivalist George Whitefield, when speaking about persons who are “righteous over-much”, said, “It is of necessity that I speak, when the divinity of Jesus Christ is spoken against, it is the duty of ministers to cry aloud, and spare not. I cannot forbear, come what will; for I know not what kind of divinity we have not amongst us: we must have a righteousness of our own, and do our best endeavors, and then Christ will make up the deficiency; that is, you must be your own Savior, in part. This is not the doctrine of the gospel; this is not the doctrine of Jesus: no; Christ is all in all; Jesus Christ must be your whole wisdom; Jesus Christ must be your whole righteousness. Jesus Christ must be your whole sanctification; or Jesus Christ will never be any of your eternal redemption and sanctification… Our polite and fashionable doctrine is, ‘That there is a fitness in man, and that God, seeing you a good creature, bestows upon you His grace.’ God forbid, my dear brethren, you should thus learn Jesus Christ!”

Whitefield goes on to say, “This is not the doctrine I preach to you; I say, salvation is the free gift of God. It is God’s free grace, I preach unto you, not of works, lest any one should boast. Jesus Christ justifies the ungodly.”

In this quote, Whitefield talks about trusting in part of one’s own works to save one’s self, and then, where the works have a deficiency, then Christ steps in to make up for where the works are lacking. “God forbid”, as Whitefield had said! Christ must be our all in all – our justification, sanctification, and complete righteousness must be in Him and Him alone! When we fail to exalt the Lord Jesus; when we fail to lift up the finished work of the Cross; when we fail to preach justification by faith; when we fail to expound upon the great and hidden treasures of God’s matchless grace by His unearned, undeserved, sovereign favor based upon His own mercy and love, then we’ve failed to preach the Gospel!

The sad tragedy of a great too many dear, precious souls is that they began in the Spirit by faith, but then seek to perfect themselves through the flesh by works, and when the unstable tendencies of human nature prevent those works from being good enough to meet the standards of some doctrines of perfection, condemnation sets in and all true faith in Christ alone is lost. Unless your works are rooted and grounded by faith in Christ alone as your righteousness, done out of sincere love and desire to please Him and not out of religious duty, obligation, or a sense of trying to earn your own righteousness, then they are nothing but filthy rags and a rotten stench in the nostrils of God. The focus must be on Christ! Look to Calvary’s Cross – not to the filthy rags of your own righteousness!

Interestingly, many of those in the holiness crowd who turn the doctrines of Christ into a kind of legalistic perfection claim to love and follow the teachings of John Wesley, and claim to derive their doctrine from his theology on “Christian Perfection”. They claim that they believe the same things as Wesley believed and preached. However, many are totally ignorant of Wesley’s doctrine.

In his sermon called, “On Sin in Believers”, John Wesley comes against the Moravians for preaching a form of sinless perfection and driving weaker Christians into a mode of despondency and despair, rather than strengthening and encouraging their faith by which they could overcome such inward unholy tempers and emotions. Listen to his words in this sermon:

“And as this position, ‘There is no sin in a believer, no carnal mind, no bent to backsliding,’ is thus contrary to the word of God, so it is to the experience of his children. These continually feel an heart bent to backsliding; a natural tendency to evil; a proneness to depart from God, and cleave to the things of earth. They are daily sensible of sin remaining in their heart, -- pride, self-will, unbelief; and of sin cleaving to all they speak and do, even their best actions and holiest duties. Yet at the same time they ‘know that they are of God;’ they cannot doubt of it for a moment. They feel his Spirit clearly ‘witnessing with their spirit, that they are the children of God.’ They ‘rejoice in God through Christ Jesus, by whom they have now received the atonement.’ So that they are equally assured, that sin is in them, and that "Christ is in them the hope of glory."

"But can Christ be in the same heart where sin is?" Undoubtedly he can; otherwise it never could be saved therefrom. Where the sickness is, there is the Physician, Carrying on his work within, Striving till he cast out sin. Christ indeed cannot reign, where sin reigns; neither will he dwell where any sin is allowed. But he is and dwells in the heart of every believer, who is fighting against all sin; although it be not yet purified, according to the purification of the sanctuary.”

Wesley goes on to say a few paragraphs later, “We are ‘reconciled to God through the blood of the cross:’ And in that moment the jronhma sarkos, the corruption of nature, which is enmity with God, is put under our feet; the flesh has no more dominion over us. But it still exists; and it is still in its nature enmity with God, lusting against his Spirit… I do not suppose any man who is justified is a slave to sin: Yet I do suppose sin remains (at least for a time) in all that are justified.”

In the summary of this sermon, Wesley concludes by saying, “The sum of all is this: There are in every person, even after he is justified, two contrary principles, nature and grace, termed by St. Paul the flesh and the Spirit. Hence, although even babes in Christ are sanctified, yet it is only in part. In a degree, according to the measure of their faith, they are spiritual; yet, in a degree they are carnal. Accordingly, believers are continually exhorted to watch against the flesh, as well as the world and the devil. And to this agrees the constant experience of the children of God. While they feel this witness in themselves, they feel a will not wholly resigned to the will of God. They know they are in him; and yet find an heart ready to depart from him, a proneness to evil in many instances, and a backwardness to that which is good. The contrary doctrine is wholly new; never heard of in the church of Christ, from the time of his coming into the world, till the time of Count Zinzendorf; and it is attended with the most fatal consequences. It cuts off all watching against our evil nature, against the Delilah which we are told is gone, though she is still lying in our bosom. It tears away the shield of weak believers, deprives them of their faith and so leaves them exposed to all the assaults of the world, the flesh, and the devil.”

“Let us, therefore, hold fast the sound doctrine ‘once delivered to the saints,’ and delivered down by them with the written word to all succeeding generations: That although we are renewed, cleansed, purified, sanctified, the moment we truly believe in Christ, yet we are not then renewed, cleansed, purified altogether; but the flesh, the evil nature, still remains (though subdued) and wars against the Spirit. So much the more let us use all diligence in ‘fighting the good fight of faith.’ So much the more earnestly let us ‘watch and pray’ against the enemy within. The more carefully let us take to ourselves, and "put on, the whole armor of God;" that, although ‘we wrestle’ both ‘with flesh, and blood, and with the principalities, and with powers, and wicked spirits in high places,’ we may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” (End of Wesley Quotations)

Obviously, not even did John Wesley, a prince among holiness preachers, believe in any form of sinless perfection. To the contrary, he clearly and unmistakably preached against it and corrected others who fell into this error.

Regarding Wesley’s theology concerning “Christian Perfection”, we must be absolutely clear to distinguish and mark the difference between this and “sinless perfection”. They are two totally different and radically opposed doctrines. Wesley himself makes this distinction in his sermons and articles on the subject, and he makes it a very clear point to say that he is not teaching sinless perfection. Christian perfection, as Wesley taught it, was not a perfection of knowledge, or a perfection of absolute righteousness via the absence of sin, but it is a perfection of love, and once this perfect love is obtained, one is able to walk in a state of true heart holiness. This is what he taught; a perfection of love and of the heart’s motives toward God and man, not a perfection of being without sin. There is a huge difference, and the understanding of this difference among those who claim to follow Wesley’s teachings can be the difference between sound theology and heresy.

Let us not depart from the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints! The testimony of the Word of God lays out a clear case saying we must constantly beat our bodies to bring them under subjection, to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily, to walk in benevolence toward God and man and be on our constant guard against the snares of the world, the flesh, and the devil. The day we fail to deny ourselves and take up our cross is the day that the flesh prevails over the Spirit and we stumble into sin! We are not perfect and freed from the presence of all sin until that great and glorious day when Christ shall appear and transform us into His likeness; that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is!

The testimony of Scripture clearly declares that there is a constant war going on in our flesh until the day we die. The testimony of the experience of the saints also declares that there will be stumbles and falls until that Day of final redemption. And the testimony of the great men of God from the past also unanimously declares exactly the same. Dare we argue against the three-fold testimony of such truthful and reliable witnesses?

The good news is that we can have victory and dominion over all known forms of sin now, here in this life, and that Christ will empower us to live in such freedom; that through Christ we can be holy; that by the power of the Cross we can be crucified to the flesh with its’ affections and lusts and by the power of His resurrection to walk in the newness of life in righteousness and true holiness of heart before God. In fact, we must walk in such victory, or else our souls are in grave danger!


WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

The objection arises: “Wait a minute! How do explain this scripture? Does it not totally contradict everything you’ve just said?”

Herein lies the truth of this matter. The Apostle John says in chapter one of his first epistle, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves”, and then just a couple chapters later declares, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin”; so which one is true? Which scripture do we believe? They are at odds, one against the other! They can’t both be true, can they?

They most certainly are both true and they do not contradict each other; but rather, they complement one another and, observed together, lead us to the true understanding of this matter. These verses do not stand face-to-face in a brawl against one another, but they rather stand back-to-back, defending the truth of the gospel against two different heresies. The first heresy being that one can be perfect and sinless, and the second heresy saying that one can continue in known sin and still inherit the Kingdom of God. Both of these extremes must be avoided, and this is what John is warning against.

The key to understanding these scriptures lies in making the distinction being willful and un-willful sin. In other words, sin that is consciously and deliberately committed as a voluntary act of the will (willful sin), and sin that is unconsciously and ignorantly stumbled into against the will (un-willful sin). Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, that is, he does not commit willful sin as a deliberate act of his own choice to rebel against God. At the same time, if one claims to be born of God and yet says he is without un-willful or unconscious sin within him as a part of his fallen nature, he deceives himself and the truth is not in him. That is the difference, and making this distinction is absolutely essential to correctly understanding the scriptures on this subject.

John makes this distinction later when he says, “If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death” (1 John 5:16-17). Notice the terminology he uses when he says, “If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death”, clearly saying that a man can be a brother in the Lord and stumble into sin, as long as it’s a sin that’s not unto death (as long as it’s not willful sin). However, there is a sin unto death that we should not pray for, because if a so-called “brother” commits a sin unto death, he is no brother at all! If that’s the case, he doesn’t need prayer and restoration, he needs repentance and regeneration!

The difference between the sin unto death and the sin that is not unto death is the difference between willful and un-willful sin. A born again child of God will not voluntarily and willfully commit any known sin against God and continue in it. If someone claims to be a Christian, but says, “I think I’m going to lie to so-and-so to make myself look better”, premeditating on telling a lie, choosing to do it, and then actually committing the sin of telling a deliberate lie, then they are no Christian, for all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8). That is a sin unto death that a born again Christian will not ever dare to deliberately do because it is against the nature of the seed of God’s word that abides within him. That is what it means to commit sin in a voluntary and willful transgression of the Law.

However, a true Christian may stumble into stretching the truth and bearing false testimony to something because of such a stretch of truth, not even consciously thinking about what he is doing. Could a born again Christian stumble into an exaggeration, which is in fact bearing false testimony, and still be born again? Yes, no doubt about it. However, as soon as the Spirit of God convicts him of it, he will confess his sin and turn from it, even abhorring his own inner corruption for doing such a foolish thing, and he will endeavor with a holy determination to never even come close to doing it again. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

Hebrews 10:26-27 says, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” In other words, if we claim to be Christians but continue in any known form of willful sin, which means we know it is sin, and yet we continue to do it anyway, after we know the truth as it is in Jesus, then no sacrifice is left to cover our sins and we are still bound under the wrath of God. A true born again child of God will not sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth about the one whose name is “JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21). This is exactly what John means when he says, “Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin”. They do not sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth.

A true Christian will be holy, for without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). This means they will live up to the full light of their conscience, endeavoring, laboring and even striving to keep a clean conscience in the sight of God, walking in inward purity and love with everything that is within them. They will not continue in any known form of sin. They will despise their imperfections, abhor the least of their inner corruptions, and cry out to God constantly saying, “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us” under a genuine humility and godliness of character. To a true Christian, the smallest and tiniest of his inward imperfections and sins will be as abominable to his new nature as a bowl of hot, steamy vomit would be appetizing to his stomach.

However, a false convert (one who claims to be a Christian but is not) will continue in known sin even though he knows it is sin, and even though he may confess it, he doesn’t truly repent to “go and sin no more”, thus proving that he is not born of God according to 1 John 1:9. Rather than being free from sin like a true Christian, he is in bondage to sin and won’t be able to get completely free apart from true conversion and regeneration. The fact that he commits sin, and continues to sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, proves that he is not a child of God.


A WORD TO THOSE WHO CONTINUE IN ANY KNOWN SIN

Dear soul: if you have any known form of sin in your life, then repent! Don’t dare play the harlot on God by adulterating yourself with the affairs of this world; knowing that whosoever is the friend of the world is the enemy of God (James 4:1-4). Don’t dare hold in your own heart the smallest bosom sin – it is deadlier than cyanide and will kill your soul a thousand times worse than the most torturous death you can possibly imagine. Know, that whatever your sin, there is time now to repent, but if you refuse to repent, that sin will bring forth a woefully awful eternal death for your soul! As Charles Spurgeon said, “Come to him just as thou art, but renounce thy sins. Ask him to set thee free from every lust, from every false way, from every evil thing, or else, mark thee, thou shalt never find grace and favor at his hands. The greatest sin in the world, repented of, shall be forgiven, but the least unrepented sin shall sink thy soul lower than the lowest hell.”

If you have any known disobedience or sin in your life that you refuse to repent from and turn away from once and for all, then don’t you dare take any of these words as a justification for your heinous rebellion against God! Willful sin shall never be winked at by the Almighty’s piercing eye of justice and holiness! If the Son hasn’t set you free, and if you don’t have dominion over all known sin in your life, then you are yet a child of the devil and it’s the works of your father, the devil, that you do! Go to now, and follow your father into the fires of eternal misery that await him, unless you choose to change your mind and confess your sins so the precious blood of Christ can cleanse you and save you from them! Don’t dare think that Christ will save you from the wrath of God if you will not have Him first save you from all known sin! If you are a willful sinner on this earth now, then you shall be brought to a woeful simmer as you burn in the flames of God’s justice in Hell! If this is you, repent!


A WORD TO THOSE WHO ARE SELF-CONDEMNED

Contrary to being a willful sinner, perhaps you are one of those dear souls who have been genuinely and truly converted by the grace of God. You love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and you love your neighbor as yourself. You know you were among the chief of sinners until God transformed you by His love and mercy. You have had a real, dramatic, living and powerful revelation of Christ being revealed to your heart and have received a living faith wherewith you have believed unto the saving of your soul. You became a new creature in Christ, created in the image of God after the inner man, and walked with God in fellowship with His Spirit by faith. You have no known form of sin in your life. You constantly pray, search yourself, examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, and ask God to reveal anything that is hindering you in your relationship with Him.

However, you have fallen into the trap of setting the standard too high, of hearing the holiness of God and the necessity of holiness in the life of a true saint emphasized so much that subconsciously, within your heart of hearts, you have believed that unless you meet some standards of ridiculously high perfection, you must certainly be condemned. You are always feeling guilty because although you have prayed, you haven’t prayed enough, or hard enough. Although you read and study the Word of God, you don’t understand as you should. Although you love and serve God, and walk in holiness as far as you can possibly know, it feels like you haven’t entered into God’s rest by faith, and you are in bondage to constantly trying to work and work your way into maintaining a right-standing with God. Having begun in the Spirit by the grace of God, you have fallen from grace and backslid into a salvation based on works, striving in the flesh to obey God lest He cut you off. Away with such lies in the name of Jesus!

Dear soul: if you are walking in no known form of sin; if you are not sinning willfully against God; if you have forsaken all to follow Jesus; if you have been truly converted and born again and have received the witness of the Spirit within your heart, and you are continuing to follow and serve God with all your heart, then for the sake of God’s glory, don’t make Him out to be a liar by doubting His exceeding great and precious promises! He has pledged Himself by covenant to undertake the salvation of your soul if you will only believe!

“For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more” (Hebrews 8:8-12).

God promises under the New Covenant, purchased by the blood of Christ, to be merciful to your unrighteousness, and to forget your sins and iniquities, if you are walking in true heart surrender before Him to believe in Him with all your heart and to love and serve and obey Him out of love and devotion and gratitude for what He did on the Cross, not out of a fear of punishment, for perfect love casts out all fear. If the gracious Lord has forgiven you much, don’t condemn yourself and try to perfect yourself by working up a right standing with God, but love Him much in return – that’s all He asks. Show Him you love Him by believing in Him as your righteousness. “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:28-29).

“What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:31-39).

Your salvation is based on the blood of Jesus and by faith in that blood, not upon your feelings, your performances, or any other thing, “for by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified” (Hebrews 10:14). If you are sanctified and totally devoted to the Lord, then the precious blood of the Lamb has taken away your sin and His one offering perfects you forever!

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:14-16).

Are you feeling condemned, even though you have been born of God? Hold fast your profession of faith! Don’t waver or doubt! He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Christ Jesus! Are you in a time of need and you need grace to help you with your infirmities? Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world! He knows the feeling of your infirmities, and was tempted in all the same ways, yet was without sin, and thereby He invites you to come to Him, just as you are, with all your unbelief, all your questions, all your doubts, all your fears, all your uncertainties, and even all your sins, and He will freely and openly accept you into the everlasting mercies of the Father and give you the grace you need.

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death” (Revelation 12:10-11).

Don’t listen to the lies of the Accuser of the Brethren! Cast him down in the name of Jesus! Stand unmovable, unshakable, by faith in the precious blood of the Lamb! Hold fast the confession of your testimony before God and never forget the glorious work that His Spirit has undertaken in your soul! Love not your life unto the death, and you will receive the Crown of Life that God gives to those that love Him! Hold fast to your profession of faith, dear saints!


DON’T JOIN THE ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN

Beware of over-exalting the doctrines of holiness to the extent that a legalistic form of perfection is established in the minds of those who adhere to such teachings, causing them to fall under the condemnation of the devil for failing to meet up to those perfections. Don’t join sides with the Accuser of the Brethren to accuse and condemn the saints of God, or even yourself if you are truly a saint, but instead, stand strong in faith, giving glory to God, staggering not at the promise of God through unbelief, but having the anchor of your hope firmly planted in the Rock of Calvary’s Cross!

Don’t dare say you are without sin before the face of God, lest you deceive yourself and think more highly of yourself than you ought. You, no matter how holy and righteous you are, need His mercy and grace just as much as the worst sinner that ever walked the face of the earth, and if you will be saved, it will only be by the same way that they will be saved: by grace through faith. The most holy saint needs the grace of God as much as the most wicked, undeserving sinner if any one of them is to be saved. In fact, the saint needs it even more so in order to maintain his walk with God every day. Neither one deserves God’s grace; it is a free gift of His sovereign mercy. And if God has undertaken the work of saving your soul by shedding His grace forth upon you and converting your soul, then dare you question the work He began?

Saints, we have enough against us: the world, the flesh, and the devil. Let us recognize our enemy, expose his lies, and stand strong in faith against his clever schemes and slick wiles. Let’s not join ranks alongside the hoards of Hell to condemn the saints and to condemn ourselves along with them by preaching legalism or perfection in the mask of holiness. Let’s not be guilty of swinging the pendulum of truth too far, to the opposite extreme when combating the errors of the antinomians. Instead, let’s lift up Jesus! Let’s raise up on high the old rugged Cross that all men may be drawn to Him! Let’s focus on Him as the Lord of all lords and King of all kings! Let’s preach His holiness, His righteousness, His justice, His wrath, His mercy, His love, and His grace without fail! And may we never again be guilty of over-emphasizing certain of these attributes of our majestic Lord while totally neglecting other of His glorious attributes, lest we present a lopsided view of God and thereby portray a false image of Him to the world. We want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the whole and entire truth, so help us God! Oh, dear Lord, help us!


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HOW THE DEVIL USES THE PHRASE "SINLESS PERFECTION"
TO SCARE AWAY MANY SINCERE
SOULS FROM SEEKING A LIFE OF HOLINESS

Have we really grasped the fact that the Victorious Life is a gift from God? We may think of it as "the fullness of the Holy Spirit," or we may think of it as Jesus Christ dwelling in the heart. Personally, the writer finds the greatest help from the fact of the indwelling Christ, and the consciousness of this indwelling.

After all, the Holy Spirit's chief work is to take of the things of Christ, and show them to us.
HOW TO GET A GIFT

But however we may regard it, the Victorious Life is a gift. "If ye being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?"

"If thou knewest the gift of God," said our Lord to a sinful woman, "and Who it is that saith to thee, 'Give Me to drink,' thou wouldest have asked of Him and He would have given thee living water" (John 4:10).
Now what must I do to secure a gift? Just take it. If a gift is offered me for the asking, will it please the giver if, instead of taking the gift, I spend long weeks, or months, or years begging and praying and agonising for it?

Would it give pleasure to a father and mother if their children sat up all night agonising in prayer for the Christmas gift they had promised to give them?

If they did such a thing, their "agonising" would have absolutely nothing to do with their receiving the gifts. One could well imagine the distressed father telling his children that if they didn't cease their petitions and get to bed and trust him, they should get no gifts at all!

Jesus Christ is the great Christmas Day Gift. "Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift" (2nd Corinthians 9:15). That gift is ours. Someone has said, "Our Lord wants our lives on earth to be one long Christmas Day of receiving His gift of Himself as our victory."

We do not need to "agonise" about it; we do not need to work for it. Provided we are wholly surrendered to God, we have simply to "receive," "take" the Gift of Christ Himself.

But did not Jesus Christ tell His disciples "to tarry in Jerusalem until [they were] endued with power from on high"? Yes, He did. "Wait," said He, "for the promise of the Father."

But that was before Pentecost.
READY FOR OUR ACCEPTANCE

We never hear of the disciples after Pentecost telling believers to "wait" for this gift. In fact, we read in the 10thchapter of the Acts that the gift of the Holy Spirit fell upon "all them that heard the word," while St. Peter was yet speaking to the household of Cornelius, although none of them was yet baptised. The Holy Spirit was given to Gentiles without delay, on simple faith in Jesus Christ. There is no need today to wait at all. If we fulfil the conditions, we can claim the gift.

The earliest disciples did not at first appreciate the value and necessity of this gift. Our Lord seems to have told "more than 500 brethren" to "tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high." Yet only 120 obeyed the command, and consequently only 120 received the gifts on the day of Pentecost - the gift meant for all.

Let us today make no mistake about this. Our Lord is longing to fill every believer with His Holy Spirit. Christ is desirous of dwelling in our entire hearts by faith. Not until we have surrendered our wills to Him and have yielded our bodies to Him as well as our souls can He fill us with Himself.

This is what Paul means when he prays "that He would grant you to be strengthened by His Spirit with power penetrating to your inmost being" (Ephesians 3:16, Weymouth). "That ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God" (Eph. 3:19), "till we all attain unto the measure... of the fullness of Christ" (4:13), "the fullness of Him that filleth all in all" (1:23).
CHRIST IN HIS FULLNESS

It is very wonderful that He should be willing to come. But it is a glorious thing that He should be willing to take absolute responsibility in our lives, because He cannot make a mistake, and He cannot fail.

It seems incredible that any believer should refuse such a gift. Again we urge you - receive Him in His fullness by faith. Do not wait for or expect any "thrill," any "ecstasy." You may feel one, and you may not. But take Christ at His word, and believe that He has come into your heart to be your life. Then rely upon Him to supply all your need.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear My voice and open the door, I will come in to him" (Revelation 3:20).

Bear in mind that Christ is already in the heart of every believer - even in the heart of one who is only following afar off. But in so many cases He is not filling the WHOLE heart. He has only partial possession; He has not complete control. There are often chambers of the heart which are shut against Him. And not only closed, but with a lodger within, and that lodger a burglar waiting his time to gain entrance to other rooms within. "If any man... open the door."

We Christians sometimes sing:

"O Jesu, Thou art standing

Outside the fast closed door,

In lowly patience waiting

To pass the threshold o'er:

Shame on us, CHRISTIAN brothers,

His name and sign who bear:

Oh, shame - thrice shame upon us,

To keep Him standing there."

And with the great majority of believers this is true of some part of the heart.

But it isn't so much the "shame" as the utter folly of it. For we know that He wishes to gain access to the whole of our hearts simply to bring richest blessing.

Paul implores the Roman Christians, "Yield yourselves unto God." He himself did so, and "heard His voice," with no closed door between - words unutterable; he felt joy unspeakable and full of glory, and in the fullness of his heart he cries, "Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift."
TEMPTATION AND FAILURE

"Is it possible to lose the Victorious Life?" is a question often asked. Indeed, it is possible. Temptation will certainly come, and failure may occur. A great Christian leader of men told the writer, a few days ago, how he had sometimes temporarily lost the victory. "But," said he, "whenever I've failed, it has always been through the sin of worrying." Yet there NEED be no failure. We have a perfect Savior. When we look back upon a break in this wonderful communion with Christ, we shall always have to confess that the failure need not have occurred.
SINLESS PERFECTION?

There are many saintly souls who openly declare that they never sin. They claim sinless perfection. They also claim that St. John teaches such a thing.

"We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not, but He that was begotten of God (i.e., Jesus Christ) keepeth him, and the evil one toucheth him not" (1 John 5:18). "Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because His seed (Jesus Christ ) abideth in Him, and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God" (1 John 3:9).

These statements refer not to single acts of sin, but to habitual sin. The tense used in the Greek does not imply that he cannot commit one definite act of sin, but that he cannot continue sinning; he cannot make a practice of sinning, or frequently repeat acts of sin; it is not his habit to sin. John is here speaking of known and voluntary sins, not of sins of infirmity or the falling short of the glory of God.
TENDENCY OR POSSIBILITY

Any man can sin. Any man can tell a lie. But we know what we mean when we say "An honest man cannot lie." We do not accuse George Washington of untruth when he declared "I cannot tell a lie!"

Every sin is against a good man's nature. We say the "wood cannot sink." this is true. The tendency of wood is always to float. Yet there is always the possibility of its sinking. The hand of a child may submerge it; when sodden with water it will lie on the bottom. When the child releases it, it floats again. When a man is living the victorious life - a life maintained and actually lived for him by the indwelling Christ - there is no tendency to sin. He desires always to do those things which are pleasing to God. But there is always the awful possibility of his sinning. He may become absorbed in the "world;" he may allow temptation to gain entrance and the hand of Satan upon him may drag him down. So long, however, as a man is fully surrendered to Christ and in full communion with Him, he cannot sin. But such a life is a moment by moment victory through a moment by moment faith. At any time he can partially withdraw his surrender or break his communion.
IN THE FATHER'S HANDS

A railway coach attached to a moving locomotive cannot stop. But at any moment the coupling may break and a stoppage ensue. Let us, however, repeat the statement that no man need commit any known and voluntary sin. "He is able to keep (guard) that which I have committed unto Him." The marginal reading is, "He is able to guard that which He hath committed unto me" (2 Timothy 1:12).

Both statements are true - praise be to God. "He is able to keep you from stumbling" (Jude 24).

Moreover our Lord Himself says of His followers, "No man shall snatch them out of My hand" ... "And no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand" (John 10:28-29). And it is evident that our Savior has made every provision for guarding us lest we snatch ourselves out of His hand. The victory over sin which is secured from faith in Christ is, however, a moment by moment victory, and we must ever be "looking unto Jesus, the Beginner and Finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2).

But thanks be to God, it isn't our "looking unto Jesus" that gives us the victory, but "His looking unto us." Peter could see the Lord despitefully used, and whilst looking at Him could curse and deny that he knew Him. But when our Savior "turned and looked upon Peter", no further denial was possible. Not our faith, but His faithfulness, is our safeguard.

The indwelling Christ is more than equal to all emergencies. So long as we trust Him fully and obey His smallest behest - so long shall we continue in victory. Why then should a man ever commit any voluntary sin? And why are we surprised when a fully sanctified Christian man tells us he never sins knowingly?
THE CAUSE OF FAILURE

The reason why even fully consecrated Christians are sometimes "overtaken in a fault" is because the majority of believers are not fully surrendered to the will of God. It would be safe to say that most Christians think very little of such sins as pride, anger, irritability, impatience, jealousy, self-seeking, un-love and suchlike. It is, therefore, such an easy thing for a man living the Victorious Life to fall into any of these sins; so many of his fellow-Christians do so unblushingly. And should he fall probably no one is in the least surprised at it! Moreover, no one but a wholly sanctified man can reprove such a one, or he will get the reply, "Physician, heal thyself," or even be referred to the "beam" and the "mote." In fact, only a "spiritual" man can help him. As St. Paul says, "If a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual restore such a one" (Galatians 6:1).

Yet how easy it is to live the life of victory when in the company of wholly sanctified men and women! Oh, that there were many more such!

Why are we surprised when a man says he has reached a state of "sinless perfection"? Well, as a rule it is perfectly obvious to anyone but himself that he has not reached such an ideal. Sooner or later he is "overtaken in a fault." A saintly Christian man was recently arguing this point at a big luncheon party, and he claimed "sinless perfection" for himself. A fellow guest quietly said, whether in sincerity or as a test I know not, "Forgive me for saying so, but I was thinking you were a little greedy over your food!" "I've never yet been accused of greed over anything," flashed out the reply, "nor will I allow YOU to accuse me!" The warmth with which the retort was made raised a smile on the faces of all who heard it; practice and profession so evidently disagreed. This little story proves both the statements made above. The "sinlessly perfect" man is sometimes irritable and angry, and when he is "overtaken in a fault" the average Christian is both amused and pleased!
SINS OR "INFIRMITIES"

The writer has had the privilege of meeting believers who claim "sinless perfection." He sat at a table with one at every meal for a week. To be quite frank he must acknowledge that he saw no outward trace of any sin. But this dear child of God took the writer to task in a kindly way for not preaching sinless perfection. This led to a long chat on the subject. My critic declared that a violent temper had been completely eradicated by the Lord Jesus. But he confessed to occasional feelings of impatience, irritability, and un-love. "These, however, I regard as INFIRMITIES and not as sins," said he.

My experience is that when men who profess sinless perfection are tackled about it, they always maintain that "little" things which WE call sins are only infirmities. Brothers, take your infirmities to Christ, and let the "strength of Christ rest upon you" (2 Corinthians 12:9).

Sometimes, alas! great harm is done to the cause of Christ by men professing "sinless perfection," and boasting about it, even while allowing things in their lives which give the lie to their profession.

One such came to a friend of the writer to consult him on a business question. It was such an obvious case of sharp practice, if not of downright dishonesty, that my friend said in surprise, "How does such an act fit in with your profession of sinless perfection?" "Oh, business is business," came the impatient reply. "And I will have nothing to do with this piece of business, then," answered my friend.

We have dealt at length on this point because the devil uses the bogey of "sinless perfection" to scare away many sincere souls from seeking a life of holiness.

Our position is just this: So long as a fully surrendered believer simply trusts the Lord Jesus to keep him and to conquer his temptations for him, he need not commit wilful sin. It is, therefore, quite legitimate and right and fitting that we should pray every morning, "Grant that this day we fall into no sin." "Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this day without sin." And Christ is able to keep us even from stumbling (Jude 24, RV). And He does keep us just so long as we trust Him to do so.

Yet at any moment we may fall into sin. It is a moment by moment victory. Many who read this will gladly confess to have experienced this freedom from known sin for five minutes, for ten minutes, for an hour, and for a much longer time. But we shall all sadly confess that at times we wilfully harbour a sinful thought and sometimes even commit knowingly some sinful act, falling under some sudden temptation. As we look back upon it, we are confident that we need not have sinned. It was "our own most grievous fault." Moreover, we find that the majority of such slips are due to unchristian acts or words of other believers. They are more often due to the low level of spiritual life in fellow-Christians than to the opposition of the world.

Do not condemn us, but claim victory for yourself and so raise the standard around us.

Claim victory for yourself, and show us by practical demonstration what a glorious life can be lived by one who is wholly Christ's.


C
Christisking

Josef,

This is an excellent article and although it is a bit long I would encourage everyone to read it for it is WELL WORTH the time to read.

If you have ever run across the doctrine of sinless perfection YOU NEED TO READ THIS ARTICLE.

Thank you soooo much for posting this Josef!!!

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

F
Forevidence

Just some thoughts as I read your article...


Some, in attempting to combat the error of cheap grace, even go so far as to preach sinless perfection. This is error, serious error, and must be avoided as a deadly plague, lest we fall into the snare of the wicked one and cause the faith of God’s people to be shipwrecked. What is “sinless perfection”? It is a doctrine that teaches that true Christians live in a state of sinless-ness, having no sin. It teaches that from the moment one is truly born again, they will never sin again, and that anyone who does not live and walk in such a state is not saved. It teaches a standard of absolute perfection, and that if a Christian is not perfect and without sin, then such a person is no Christian at all. It teaches that if somebody gets born again, but then stumbles into any form of sin, no matter how small, then they are immediately thrust back under the wrath of God until they repent again (and there are greater and lesser sins; see Matthew 23:14, Luke 17:1-2, John 19:11, 1 John 5:16). Thus, there is no assurance for the believer in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, or in the one and perfect offering for sin by the precious blood of the eternal Covenant. Instead the life of the Christian becomes a fearful and vicious cycle containing bouts of assurance and happiness when they think they are being holy enough, and condemnation and depression when they fail to meet the standards of perfect holiness.

Well, if this is damnable heresy then many Methodist's are in the bruning lake of fire, because they believe this very thing. That I saint can live in a state of sinlessness...

{quote]Over-emphasizing a high degree of holiness causes those who sit under such teaching, if they believe it, to examine themselves vigorously, over and over, to see if there is the smallest or tiniest degree of anything unholy in them. As extreme holiness is continually emphasized, they continue to examine themselves, and as soon as they find something unholy, they condemn themselves for it and fall into the trap of self-condemnation. They then continue to examine themselves almost endlessly, and their focus gets removed from Christ and His love, grace, and mercy, and their focus gets put on themselves and their works. Their righteousness becomes based on their deeds, works, and performance before God, rather than in the finished work of the Cross through the faith of Christ. Perfection becomes an obsession, and the sight of the Cross is at a loss.

Not necessarily since you can't over emphasize holiness ever, because holiness is constantly the emphasis of heaven, and those who are headed their must emphasize it. Also those who are scared out of their justification by 'over emphasis on holiness' have not witness of the Spirit. Holiness should never scare a true saint of God, only encourage him or her. A Perfected saint would never take his eyes off of Christ, because Jesus becomes his Urim and Thummim (Light and Perfections) and he dare not look to his works for sanctification, that is legalism and a perfect man or woman, free of all sin would never look to himself for a moment.

A trully justified saint would never lose his confidence of the witness of the Spirit until he is completely sanctifeid. Because God does not begin a work He does not finish. They would never lose their confidence from scary what you call an over-emphasis on 'holiness' preaching.

The fact is: preaching and overemphasizing an extreme degree of holiness destroys the assurance and faith of the saints. No one is perfectly sinless. Ask any saint, any true born again child of God that has been walking with the Lord for a number of years; ask them if they have sinned even once since their conversion. Ask them if they’ve ever committed a single sin against God since they got born again. If they are not blind and stupid to the laws of God, they will most certainly and ashamedly tell you they have. Does this mean they weren’t born again? Does this mean that as soon as they sinned, God cut them off and declared them children of the devil and bound them fit for destruction in Hell?

Even a person who is a saint sins, then that does not mean living a sinless life is not the desire of God. It is and sin in believers deserves a half excommunication from the Son of God 'Get behind me Satan' to even his choice disciples.


IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).

The beloved Apostle John, in inscribing these words on the sacred parchment of his first epistle, being a holy man moved upon by the Holy Ghost to record these holy words, has clearly said in the most plainest and straightforward language, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”. This epistle is addressed to saints, warning against various dangers, extremes, and heresies that were attempting to creep their way into the Church in John’s old age, and as a guideline to the faith of Christ and the nature of true conversion.

If your premise is true that John wrote this including himself when he said 'we' then John was not a holy man filled witht the Holy Ghost. Jesus gives his Spirit to those who obey Him, not to sinning apostles to write scripture...

John God not have been in sin that very moment otherwise he would not have the fellowship close enough to write holy scripture.

John Wesley has great explanation on this verse and so does the greek language. This is not talking about sanctification, but about justification. If one never admits he has sinned as verse 10 states, then one can't properly be cleansed from his sins and ALL unrighteousness.

Verse 9 makes not sense if you continue to confess sin in your life, you can't be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

Justification pardons all sins, but sanctification cleanses all unrighteousness!

So the what John is fighting against the denial of any sin ever! Not we still to this day. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the letter, 'I write to you so you do no sin!'

You also do not need sin to be humble. John in his old age was not admitting 'transgression of the law' here to be humble, no he was acknowledging that one who never admits his sin cannot be properly cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Robertson's Word Pictures points out here that the picture John was developing in this verse is the same one he stated in the gospel he wrote.

Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The Pharisees would never admit any of their sins therefore they were blind, but once a person admits his sin, he is forgiven and then God begins to cleanse from ALL unrighteousness.

Even the Apostle Paul agreed and admitted to the personal imperfections of his righteousness before God: “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:12-14). This was written at about 61 AD, which was after his third missionary journey. If sinless perfection could be obtained, then without a doubt it should have been obtained by the Apostle Paul after enduring so much hardship, living in such devotion, and following hard after God for so many years, being “not a whit behind the chiefest Apostles”. In context of the perfection of which Paul is speaking, he is speaking of “attaining unto the resurrection of the dead” (verse 10) by being found in the righteousness of Christ by faith (verse 9). So, namely, he is talking about righteousness, and admitting that even he didn’t have a perfect righteousness on this earth, looking forward to full and final redemption, which would take place in the final work of redemption at the time of glorification.

Paul is neither admitting sin or denying need. Paul was not in sin here. The greek clearly shows that his talking about two perfections. One of which he had acheived...

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be [b]perfect[/b], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

That word in greek is teleio or morally perfect. Paul was morally perfect and states here and in plenty other verses.

The perfection Paul says he had not attained too is this....

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

This word here is different and implies a perfection of glorification. It is the same word Jesus used in this verse...

Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be [b]perfected[/b].

Was Jesus sinless. Yes! But he saw a perfection in the glorifcation that had not been attained. The same thing Paul is stating.

Paul was not claiming he had sin in his life, just as much as Jesus was not saying he had sinned in that Luke verse. Both were acknowledging the consummation of salvation the redemption of the body in glorification.

Also....
John could not have been talking about himself presently in 1 John 1:8. For if he was then he was sinning that very moment as he was writting the epistle.

Both greek dictionaries imply presently but verse 10 explains what verse 8 means.

This the gnostics that John fought constantly denied. They denied ever having sinned. This a perfected saint would never deny, but would also acknowledged he has ceased from sin.

In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus taught His disciples to pray, “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” This is how the Lord Jesus taught His holy Apostles to pray! Just prior to Him teaching them to pray for forgiveness for their sins, He said, “give us this day our daily bread”, clearly implying that this is a daily prayer that should be prayed. In other words, we need to constantly, in humility, recognize our shortcomings in the sight of God and humble ourselves under His mighty hand to ask for His mercy and grace to cover our offenses before Him. If we say we have no offenses before the all-seeing eyes of His holiness, we only deceive ourselves.

One is able to reminisce on past sins and be just as humbled. Would a saint in sin everyday pray for his constant trangressions of the law of God! No! We are taught to pray that but Jesus never taught us to constantly have indwelling sin like prdie and envy and all those damnable things in us while we pray! We would never be heard.

Saints aren’t perfect, but they are striving for perfection, and while they are on the journey toward this perfection, they despise and even abhor themselves for their own imperfections.

Most saints are not perfect, but some are... Otherwise who was Paul speaking to here...

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are [b]perfect[/b]...

or here...

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

or here...

Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

or here...

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did(make men perfect); by the which we draw nigh unto God.

and here...

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

That is talking to saints.

Also you said...

This own self-abhorrence for inward corruption is not a self-condemnation or self-pity. These things come from the evil one. It is a self-abhorrence that produces “godly sorrow (which) worketh repentance”, and not “the sorrow of the world (which) worketh death” (2 Corinthians 7:10). This godly sorrow is completely different and distinct from depression. It is what Jesus meant by saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit”, and “Blessed are those that mourn”, speaking of recognizing our own spiritual state before God, our personal guilt, helplessness, and of the utter emptiness of our own nature of everything good, and a conviction and realizing sense of being shut up to the grace of God alone for help. According to Jesus, this is a characteristic of the “blessed”, or in other words, a characteristic of true saints. There is a huge and fundamental difference between such godly sorrow and the sorrow of the world.

Not necessarily for one that is perfect can still mourn and be broken before God even when they have no sin. Their is an abasement for those who are still in sins, but for those who are perfect they are able to echo Job's statement...

Job 9:21 I am blameless; I regard not myself; I loathe my life.

Still not in sin but able to regard not himself ot his life. Jesus did the same!


THE REVIVALISTS AND GIANTS OF THE PAST AGREE TO THIS DOCTRINE

You quoted Matthew Henry and Finney, but Matthew Henry was a calvinist and like most % pointers they rejected Entire Sanctity.

Finney although believe a Christian could sin, amde it clear that living a sinless here and on this earth is possible. Half of his systematic theoloy was on this truth.

Whitefield and Wesley fought over Christian Perfection countless amounts of time. Wesley wrote a whole book on living a sinless life, called the Plain Account of Chrisian Perfection.

He did beleive saints could sin, but he also believed in the second work of grace which was Christian Perfection and Second Blessing Holiness or Entire Sanctification. John Weseley describes the perfect saint over and over again throughout his sermons.

This is what he taught; a perfection of love and of the heart’s motives toward God and man, not a perfection of being without sin. There is a huge difference, and the understanding of this difference among those who claim to follow Wesley’s teachings can be the difference between sound theology and heresy.

No, Wesley taught a sinless life. Not only in motives in actual heart soul mind and body. Love perfected which he emphasized, was the love that would not sin against God. He did say knowledge and frailties of body could not be perfected, but living a sinless life was the expectation and hope of all who believe it.

John Fletcher who was second too Wesley in the people called the Methodist's understood Wesley to teach that Christians and one point in time cease from sinning. So did many of the other Methdoists. This is a distinct doctrine of the Methodist and all holiness groups, including that are fallen away to this day.

Sinless perfection was a heresy but that heresy is not living a sinless life, it is saying you have no sin when you are still in sin. That is what the gnostics taught a believed.

"In conformity, therefore, both to the doctrine of St. John, and the whole tenor of the New Testament, we fix this conclusion: A Christian is so far perfect, as not to commit sin."

-John Wesley

He goes on to say...

""This is the glorious privilege of every Christian, yea, though he be but a babe in Christ. But it is only of grown Christians it can be affirmed, they are in such a sense perfect..."

Seems clear he bleived that the whole New Testament taught a sinlessness that is not a heresy like 'Sinless perfection.'


WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN

In this section you are still missing the fact that John wrote the epistle so that they don't sin. So that they may be perfect in love.

And what you said and what John says here can't both be true. We can't constantly admit to sin and say that we are born of God, no. WE can't continue in indwelling sin and still expect to be children of God. It must be rooted out of the heart, and God has made provision for that.

Now blievers do sin, but not perfect believers. If any person sin in thought word or deed they are being sanctified, but if one does not offend in thought word and deed they are perfect.

I could say so much more. But I will see what you think about what I wrote. But I will leave it there, I just wanted to comment a bit on some of things you said. You asked our opinions so therefore I gave it. I think that you did a good job exhorting people to not be condemned by the accusations of the devil and all that. I also think you pointed out some good things about legalism and what not.

But none of those mean you cannot live a sinless life, legalism and condemnation are not legit arguments to tell people they are not live a perfect life. Jesus was not afraid to do it, neither should we. 'Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.'

Love you Brother

God bless! See you soon!

S
sermonindex

I wish I could see you all at that conference.
If Mike has any more boxes of tissues, I could use them here. Unless a miracle happens by October. Stranger things have happened I suppose.


If I could just enter my thoughts on this thread ... the word hamartia comes from hamartanō, meaning basically "to miss the mark".

"The Mark" is The Image of Christ.

We are 'be-ing' transformed into the Image.

I think the key word in God's action in our lives is just this. Be-ing formed or transformed into His Image. As He was the Image of The Father.

Our part, is to walk in the Spirit (Rom 8). That's why Paul spoke to the Galatians as he did, saying, are you so foolish, having begun in the spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh ?

And as John spoke the most of "Love" being the way to perfection, fulfilling all of the law and the Prophets and without which, we will not be saved, despite our good works or efforts to be 'sinless'.

I think, we rob ourselves of what we could be, if we center in on specific sins, rather than setting our goals and sights, as Paul did, in Phil. 3, to KNOW HIM, through 'whatever' circumstances He sends our way. Romans 8:28 is "For" 29.

IF we see that absolutely everything and every single person that comes into each of our days, is sent by GOD to refine us, and to do that Rom.8:28,29 thing to us ... and realize ... not a sparrow falls without it being His will, then we will let Him use our circumstances, those who we see each day, flat tires, smashing toes into doors, screaming neighbors, EVERYTHING through the eyes of the "all things that work for the Good" - which is to conform us into the image of Christ.

To "walk in the Spirit" as seen in the beginning of Romans 8, is just the opposite of trying to fulfill God's law in our flesh.
Walking in the Spirit, is when we die to self, self-dependence, autonomy and self effort and in total dependence on His Spirit within us & He who is the Author and Finisher of our faith -- we learn to wait on Him constantly.

Jesus had all that we have now. He emptied Himself, so to be an example. He depended on the Father to lead, work and speak through Him in everything He did, through The Spirit.

Rather than keep "self", we need to be willing to empty ourselves of ourselves and become thoroughly dependent on Him, to "hear His Voice" (Jn 10) and "follow".

We cut ourselves short of what He's trying to do in us and through us, if we get into thinking the cessation of outward sin is all that we need to do.

To be "perfect", [u]Every[/u] 'thought' must be taken captive to the obedience of Christ.

Every thought.

That's where it all begins. Every single thought.


My favorite verses were posted by Forevidence:

Php 3:9-15 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; IF by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


Thank you!


edit note. When I clicked on Phil 3:12 on the e-sword, 12 Commentaries lit up, just on that one verse.

P
pastorfrin

Yes dear sister,

Philip. 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Oh, the desire of my heart.

Have a wonderful evening, for me it is late.
8-) There is no sleepy face so this will have to do.

In His Love
pastorfrin

C
Christisking

Here is a great sermon recently preached by Bible teacher and holiness preacher Zac Poonen on the Book of 1st John. Zac explains much of what Josef is talking about in very clear language and terms. This is a must hear sermon and goes along with this article VERY WELL.

1st John - Zac Poonen
http://www.cfcindia.net/through_bible/67.%201%20John.mp3

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Y
Yeshuasboy

Awesome post brother..... Great topic. May the Lord Christ Jesus strengthen His children in this time of falling away.

Thanks for the blessisng,
richie

C
Compton

This is a blessed post and thread.

I am reminded of scriptures like this from Psalm 107: Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.

Brethren, some preachers would keep us out of any haven, like a weary ship with no port to come home to. This in combination with doomsday predictions might very well make a Christian the most neurotic and depressed fellow on Earth.

In my experience, it is not guilty striving for sinlessness that marks the Christian, but the true inward witness of the forgiveness of sin that relieves the guilty conscience. Sadly, fewer have this most precious inward blessing then do those who profess holiness.

I believe revivals are built on the personal revelation and possession of divine forgiveness. A soul is awakened to a dreadful darkened predicament with a guilty conscience, but nevertheless remains in darkness without the gift of forgiveness through Christ Jesus. What we call holy living is the worshipful expression of this unseen rapture of the heart. Holiness without forgiveness is an awful weight upon the soul...who can lift it?

Blessings,

MC


P
PaulWest

I agree with Mike C. This is a blessed article, very well-written, and even more so...very much needed. Holiness preaching is dangerous in itself, like handling a bottle of nitroglycerin. The preacher [i]must[/i] have the proper balance of grace and truth if he is to keep himself and others safe from legalistic destruction. Unfortunately, not many are able to counter-balance God's holiness with grace. I'm still learning myself, and will probably always be in check on this.

Patrick is right; Zac Poonen has wonderful teachings on 1 John. Here is a good example of a preacher exhibiting God's precious balance. And this article Josef wrote demonstrates maturity and understanding as well. Well done.

Brother Paul

S
sermonindex

In reply to Giancarlo:

(the bold characters are his words, the italicized my initial words in the article, and the regular font is my response to his previous post)

[b]Just some thoughts as I read your article...[/b]

[i]Some, in attempting to combat the error of cheap grace, even go so far as to preach sinless perfection. This is error, serious error, and must be avoided as a deadly plague, lest we fall into the snare of the wicked one and cause the faith of God’s people to be shipwrecked. What is “sinless perfection”? It is a doctrine that teaches that true Christians live in a state of sinless-ness, having no sin. It teaches that from the moment one is truly born again, they will never sin again, and that anyone who does not live and walk in such a state is not saved. It teaches a standard of absolute perfection, and that if a Christian is not perfect and without sin, then such a person is no Christian at all. It teaches that if somebody gets born again, but then stumbles into any form of sin, no matter how small, then they are immediately thrust back under the wrath of God until they repent again (and there are greater and lesser sins; see Matthew 23:14, Luke 17:1-2, John 19:11, 1 John 5:16). Thus, there is no assurance for the believer in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, or in the one and perfect offering for sin by the precious blood of the eternal Covenant. Instead the life of the Christian becomes a fearful and vicious cycle containing bouts of assurance and happiness when they think they are being holy enough, and condemnation and depression when they fail to meet the standards of perfect holiness. [/i]

[b]Well, if this is damnable heresy then many Methodist's are in the bruning lake of fire, because they believe this very thing. That I saint can live in a state of sinlessness...[/b]

Did they preach “sinlessness” in terms of committing no known sin against God and in being free from all willful sin, or did they preach it in terms of having no form of present unworthiness and unwillful, ignorant and unknowing sin dwelling within at least in some measure? If they preached it in the sense of the former, then they are no heretics. If they preached it in the sense of the latter, then they most assuredly are. And, if in the sense of the latter, they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them. If this is what they preached, and it is damnable heresy, then all I can do is agree with your statement – then they must be in Hell. A great portion of the Methodist movement got sucked into the error of legalism. Just because they are Methodists doesn’t necessarily mean they went to heaven, either. Will not the Judge of all the earth do right? We will commit such things to God.

Furthermore, whether a number of the old-school Methodists got into error, or didn’t, or went to Heaven or Hell, doesn’t change anything concerning the truth of Scripture. Even if a number of them did get into the heresy of sinless perfection, it doesn’t prove the doctrine true. If anything, it should cause us to shudder in fear lest we get sucked into a similar error, seeing that a number of such devout men of the past were ensnared by it.

[i]Over-emphasizing a high degree of holiness causes those who sit under such teaching, if they believe it, to examine themselves vigorously, over and over, to see if there is the smallest or tiniest degree of anything unholy in them. As extreme holiness is continually emphasized, they continue to examine themselves, and as soon as they find something unholy, they condemn themselves for it and fall into the trap of self-condemnation. They then continue to examine themselves almost endlessly, and their focus gets removed from Christ and His love, grace, and mercy, and their focus gets put on themselves and their works. Their righteousness becomes based on their deeds, works, and performance before God, rather than in the finished work of the Cross through the faith of Christ. Perfection becomes an obsession, and the sight of the Cross is at a loss. [/i]

[b]Not necessarily since you can't over emphasize holiness ever, because holiness is constantly the emphasis of heaven, and those who are headed their must emphasize it. Also those who are scared out of their justification by 'over emphasis on holiness' have not witness of the Spirit. Holiness should never scare a true saint of God, only encourage him or her. A Perfected saint would never take his eyes off of Christ, because Jesus becomes his Urim and Thummim (Light and Perfections) and he dare not look to his works for sanctification, that is legalism and a perfect man or woman, free of all sin would never look to himself for a moment.

A trully justified saint would never lose his confidence of the witness of the Spirit until he is completely sanctifeid. Because God does not begin a work He does not finish. They would never lose their confidence from scary what you call an over-emphasis on 'holiness' preaching.[/b]

First, the “holiness” that I am talking about is not holiness in the true sense of the word, but a false and hyped-up view of holiness that results in serious error. I lay down the necessity of true holiness at the very beginning of my article so as to make it as clear as possible that I believe in and preach holiness myself. It is not the doctrines of the holiness of God, or the necessity of holiness in the life and heart of a believer that I am coming against, but the false view of hyped-up holiness of sinless perfectionism.

Second, let me ask you a question in response: Do you not believe that a justified saint can lose the assurance of his salvation by staggering at the promises of God and falling short of entering His rest through unbelief, and thereby shipwreck his faith? If not, you must certainly be a once-saved-always-saved Calvinist, which I know you're not. If so, your entire argument falls apart because that means a truly justified saint CAN lose his confidence toward God. Therefore, a truly justified saint can come under condemnation by a false and hyped-up emphasis on the essentiality of holiness.

Obviously, the Pharisees in the time of Jesus over-emphasized holiness to the point where they thought themselves more holy than Jesus Himself. They rebuked him for healing on the Sabbath and eating with unwashed hands, for eating with sinners, and drinking wine, for not fasting, and other things as well, something that someone as “holy” as a Pharisee would never dare do! It was not that they were too holy; it was that they presented a false view of holiness. It is against a similar false view of holiness that I am coming against.

[i]The fact is: preaching and overemphasizing an extreme degree of holiness destroys the assurance and faith of the saints. No one is perfectly sinless. Ask any saint, any true born again child of God that has been walking with the Lord for a number of years; ask them if they have sinned even once since their conversion. Ask them if they’ve ever committed a single sin against God since they got born again. If they are not blind and stupid to the laws of God, they will most certainly and ashamedly tell you they have. Does this mean they weren’t born again? Does this mean that as soon as they sinned, God cut them off and declared them children of the devil and bound them fit for destruction in Hell? [/i]

[b]Even a person who is a saint sins, then that does not mean living a sinless life is not the desire of God. It is and sin in believers deserves a half excommunication from the Son of God 'Get behind me Satan' to even his choice disciples.[/b]

1. Most certainly, God does desire that we walk in the light as He is in the light. He knows we’re not perfect in the sense of being sinless, but He is pleased with faith in the shed blood of His precious Son, and seeing this faith in us, imputes the righteousness of Christ unto us.

2. What is this talk about having a “half-excommunication from the Son of God”??? What is this strange new doctrine of half-estrangement? We are no longer accepted in the Beloved, only half accepted? We are no longer made perfect by the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ, but any believer who stumbles is immediately half-way estranged from God? Strange doctrine that is!

3. God is more holy and more omniscient than what you make Him to be. He knows more about you than you do. He knows more about his saints than they know of themselves, including the hairs on the their heads. God, in the splendor of His holiness and the glory of His perfection, looks does upon no son of man, other than Christ Himself while on this earth, as being sinlessly perfect. Even if you or any other person claims to be sinlessly perfect, God doesn’t see that. If you were to translate into His immediate presence, you would immediately cry out like Isaiah in chapter 6: “WOE IS ME, I AM UNDONE”!!!

4. Which is why no man may see God’s face and live, only the sinless Christ. Because no man is sinlessly perfect. If they saw God in all His glory, they must die because of indwelling sin.

5. Surely, the anointing of one who is sinlessly perfect must be tremendous! He must be raising the dead and casting out the mightiest of devils left and right! Seeing He has perfect communion with God based on his sinlessness, he must be much more mighty in the Spirit than any one we see today! Show me the man who is sinlessly perfect, and I will see if he is in such fellowship with God as to do at least the same works that the Apostle John did, who didn’t claim to be sinlessly perfect.

[i]IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).

The beloved Apostle John, in inscribing these words on the sacred parchment of his first epistle, being a holy man moved upon by the Holy Ghost to record these holy words, has clearly said in the most plainest and straightforward language, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”. This epistle is addressed to saints, warning against various dangers, extremes, and heresies that were attempting to creep their way into the Church in John’s old age, and as a guideline to the faith of Christ and the nature of true conversion. [/i]

[b]If your premise is true that John wrote this including himself when he said 'we' then John was not a holy man filled witht the Holy Ghost. Jesus gives his Spirit to those who obey Him, not to sinning apostles to write scripture...

John God not have been in sin that very moment otherwise he would not have the fellowship close enough to write holy scripture.

John Wesley has great explanation on this verse and so does the greek language. This is not talking about sanctification, but about justification. If one never admits he has sinned as verse 10 states, then one can't properly be cleansed from his sins and ALL unrighteousness.

Verse 9 makes not sense if you continue to confess sin in your life, you can't be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

Justification pardons all sins, but sanctification cleanses all unrighteousness!

So the what John is fighting against the denial of any sin ever! Not we still to this day. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the letter, 'I write to you so you do no sin!'

You also do not need sin to be humble. John in his old age was not admitting 'transgression of the law' here to be humble, no he was acknowledging that one who never admits his sin cannot be properly cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Robertson's Word Pictures points out here that the picture John was developing in this verse is the same one he stated in the gospel he wrote.

Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The Pharisees would never admit any of their sins therefore they were blind, but once a person admits his sin, he is forgiven and then God begins to cleanse from ALL unrighteousness.[/b]

1. No where did I say John was a sinning Apostle that disobeyed Christ. God forbid! I make the clear distinction of what sense of sin I am talking about. Christ didn’t command us to be sinlessly perfect, so he certainly wasn’t disobeying Christ. Jesus, when He said, “Be ye perfect” was speaking of striving for perfection, inwardly and outwardly, and having a perfection of pure heart motives before God.

2.John Wesley does not say that unless you read your doctrine into his words, and, even IF he did, he would be wrong anyway. The Greek does not put it in the past tense and no Greek scholar says it does. It is in the present tense, undeniably. I laid this down in the article. Hundreds of Greeks SCHOLARS agree, along with every English translation of the Bible. You are reading your preconceived ideas INTO scripture to try to prove your pet-doctrine when the scripture in context teaches no such thing. This is the first and most vital rule of proper scripture interpretation – not reading your own ideas into scripture.

3. Sanctification does not cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness. And it is through faith in the blood that we are sanctified.

4. Obviously, John would write so that they do not sin. That is, sin willfully against God, not that they would be eradicated from original sin – HUGE difference. All scripture is written so we do not sin. Some, in reading the latter part of chapter one, may take his words as a license to sin, because they do apply to the saint and not the sinner, so he makes it clear first thing in chapter two that he is not writing to justify any sin whatsoever, but that they won’t sin. Then, he goes on to say if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, because He knows at sometime in our walk we will.

5. A person is cleansed from ALL unrighteousness through faith in the blood. This doesn’t mean he is sinlessly perfect, it means he is cleansed from every known form of sin, and that there is not a single blemish in his life that he is presently aware of that is not being dealt with and repented of.

[i]Even the Apostle Paul agreed and admitted to the personal imperfections of his righteousness before God: “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:12-14). This was written at about 61 AD, which was after his third missionary journey. If sinless perfection could be obtained, then without a doubt it should have been obtained by the Apostle Paul after enduring so much hardship, living in such devotion, and following hard after God for so many years, being “not a whit behind the chiefest Apostles”. In context of the perfection of which Paul is speaking, he is speaking of “attaining unto the resurrection of the dead” (verse 10) by being found in the righteousness of Christ by faith (verse 9). So, namely, he is talking about righteousness, and admitting that even he didn’t have a perfect righteousness on this earth, looking forward to full and final redemption, which would take place in the final work of redemption at the time of glorification. [/i]


[b]Paul is neither admitting sin or denying need. Paul was not in sin here. The greek clearly shows that his talking about two perfections. One of which he had acheived...

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

That word in greek is teleio or morally perfect. Paul was morally perfect and states here and in plenty other verses.

The perfection Paul says he had not attained too is this....

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

This word here is different and implies a perfection of glorification. It is the same word Jesus used in this verse...

Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Was Jesus sinless. Yes! But he saw a perfection in the glorifcation that had not been attained. The same thing Paul is stating.

Paul was not claiming he had sin in his life, just as much as Jesus was not saying he had sinned in that Luke verse. Both were acknowledging the consummation of salvation the redemption of the body in glorification.

Also....
John could not have been talking about himself presently in 1 John 1:8. For if he was then he was sinning that very moment as he was writting the epistle.

Both greek dictionaries imply presently but verse 10 explains what verse 8 means.

This the gnostics that John fought constantly denied. They denied ever having sinned. This a perfected saint would never deny, but would also acknowledged he has ceased from sin.[/b]

1. I never said Paul was in sin. Once again, you are building a straw man and attacking it in your arguments. Paul was not in any willful or known sin, but he was aware of his present imperfections before God. The word “sin” means “to miss the mark”. Paul knew that no matter how perfected he was, he would always miss the mark of God’s glory and perfection in some way because of original sin.

2. I am SHOCKED at the way you lump Jesus and Paul together in the same sense of being sinlessly perfect. This in itself shows your error.

3. The greek dictionaries are right. You’re misinterpretation of scripture is what is wrong. Once again, you are violating the first rule of sound scripture interpretation: reading your preconceived ideas into the scripture to justify your own pet-doctine.

[i]In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus taught His disciples to pray, “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” This is how the Lord Jesus taught His holy Apostles to pray! Just prior to Him teaching them to pray for forgiveness for their sins, He said, “give us this day our daily bread”, clearly implying that this is a daily prayer that should be prayed. In other words, we need to constantly, in humility, recognize our shortcomings in the sight of God and humble ourselves under His mighty hand to ask for His mercy and grace to cover our offenses before Him. If we say we have no offenses before the all-seeing eyes of His holiness, we only deceive ourselves.[/i]

[b]One is able to reminisce on past sins and be just as humbled. Would a saint in sin everyday pray for his constant trangressions of the law of God! No! We are taught to pray that but Jesus never taught us to constantly have indwelling sin like prdie and envy and all those damnable things in us while we pray! We would never be heard.[/b]

1. No a saint does not every day transgress God’s law! But he does fall short of God’s glory by missing the mark because of original sin.

2. There will always be a root of some sort of indwelling sin until glorification. Go a week without praying or getting spiritual nourishment, and you will see, the monster is not on the outside trying to get in, it’s on the inside trying to get out and manifest itself as an act of disobedience toward God. This monster is called original sin, and it is still in saints. Saints, however, have power and victory over it and sin does not have dominion over them.

3. Sin still dwells in the flesh, and will until the day of glorification. That is why Jesus commanded us to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily, because sin is in the flesh and must be denied daily. They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts, because they know sin dwells in the flesh and the flesh must be crucified to be free from the dominion of sin.

[i]Saints aren’t perfect, but they are striving for perfection, and while they are on the journey toward this perfection, they despise and even abhor themselves for their own imperfections. [/i]

[b]Most saints are not perfect, but some are... Otherwise who was Paul speaking to here...

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect...

or here...

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

or here...

Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

or here...

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did(make men perfect); by the which we draw nigh unto God.

and here...

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

That is talking to saints.[/b]

1. Paul never claimed to be sinlessly perfect. To the contrary, he claimed he wasn’t repeatedly thru his epistles.

2. The verses you quote are talking about a spiritual maturity, not sinless perfection. It is absolutely ridiculous to even claim they are talking about sinlessness.

3. Once again, you are clearly reading your pre-concieved views into the scripture, rather than using sound methods of biblical interpretation.

[i]This own self-abhorrence for inward corruption is not a self-condemnation or self-pity. These things come from the evil one. It is a self-abhorrence that produces “godly sorrow (which) worketh repentance”, and not “the sorrow of the world (which) worketh death” (2 Corinthians 7:10). This godly sorrow is completely different and distinct from depression. It is what Jesus meant by saying, “Blessed are the poor in spirit”, and “Blessed are those that mourn”, speaking of recognizing our own spiritual state before God, our personal guilt, helplessness, and of the utter emptiness of our own nature of everything good, and a conviction and realizing sense of being shut up to the grace of God alone for help. According to Jesus, this is a characteristic of the “blessed”, or in other words, a characteristic of true saints. There is a huge and fundamental difference between such godly sorrow and the sorrow of the world.[/i]

[b]Not necessarily for one that is perfect can still mourn and be broken before God even when they have no sin. Their is an abasement for those who are still in sins, but for those who are perfect they are able to echo Job's statement...

Job 9:21 I am blameless; I regard not myself; I loathe my life.

Still not in sin but able to regard not himself ot his life. Jesus did the same![/b]

1. Job was blameless, but he wasn’t perfect. Otherwise, God would not have accused him at the end of the book of being foolish. And if he was sinless he needed no Savior. But the scripture says, “all have sinned”.

2. Far cry from sinless perfection Job was! He was a righteous man, not sinless. He had faith in God, not moral perfection according to works. Big difference.

[i]THE REVIVALISTS AND GIANTS OF THE PAST AGREE TO THIS DOCTRINE [/i]

[b]You quoted Matthew Henry and Finney, but Matthew Henry was a calvinist and like most % pointers they rejected Entire Sanctity.

Finney although believe a Christian could sin, amde it clear that living a sinless here and on this earth is possible. Half of his systematic theoloy was on this truth.

Whitefield and Wesley fought over Christian Perfection countless amounts of time. Wesley wrote a whole book on living a sinless life, called the Plain Account of Chrisian Perfection.

He did beleive saints could sin, but he also believed in the second work of grace which was Christian Perfection and Second Blessing Holiness or Entire Sanctification. John Weseley describes the perfect saint over and over again throughout his sermons. [/b]

1. This is not a minor theological issue (i.e. Calvinism VS Arminianism). This is about a serious doctrine of the truth. Which is why understanding it is so important.

2. Wesley, first of all, repeatedly changed his views on “Christian Perfection” throughout his life. If I’m not mistaken, the book “A Plain Account” was written over a number of years and even contains his changes of views. He himself admits it plainly. (Please correct me if I’m wrong)

3. John Wesley made the same distinction between willful and unwillful sin as I made. He explains it as being an imperfection of knowledge, and of human frailties, and thereby that ignorant sin is committed due to such an imperfection of knowledge. It is not sin the believer is aware of, but it is present. Wesley explains clearly that there will always be an imperfection of knowledge until glorification, and thereby a coming short of God’s glory until that day.

4. A large portion of Finney’s systematic theology is garbage. He promotes government theology and denies original sin. That’s some serious theological garbage and was his chief error. However, it does not change what he said in regards to sin in believers, as I quoted in my article.

[i]This is what he taught; a perfection of love and of the heart’s motives toward God and man, not a perfection of being without sin. There is a huge difference, and the understanding of this difference among those who claim to follow Wesley’s teachings can be the difference between sound theology and heresy.[/i]

[b]No, Wesley taught a sinless life. Not only in motives in actual heart soul mind and body. Love perfected which he emphasized, was the love that would not sin against God. He did say knowledge and frailties of body could not be perfected, but living a sinless life was the expectation and hope of all who believe it.

John Fletcher who was second too Wesley in the people called the Methodist's understood Wesley to teach that Christians and one point in time cease from sinning. So did many of the other Methdoists. This is a distinct doctrine of the Methodist and all holiness groups, including that are fallen away to this day.

Sinless perfection was a heresy but that heresy is not living a sinless life, it is saying you have no sin when you are still in sin. That is what the gnostics taught a believed.

"In conformity, therefore, both to the doctrine of St. John, and the whole tenor of the New Testament, we fix this conclusion: A Christian is so far perfect, as not to commit sin."

-John Wesley

He goes on to say...

""This is the glorious privilege of every Christian, yea, though he be but a babe in Christ. But it is only of grown Christians it can be affirmed, they are in such a sense perfect..."

Seems clear he bleived that the whole New Testament taught a sinlessness that is not a heresy like 'Sinless perfection.'[/b]

1. John Wesley taught a perfection of love, not a sinless perfection. You are wrong. I’ve seen it clearly laid out in many of his sermons. He says that because of this divine love, your heart is purified, and you won’t commit sin. That is, you will not willfully sin against God.

2. However, as I said, he taught a perpetual shortcoming due to lack of knowledge and frailty of human nature. He even believed in and preached the doctrines that go with original sin.

[i]WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN [/i]

[b]In this section you are still missing the fact that John wrote the epistle so that they don't sin. So that they may be perfect in love.

And what you said and what John says here can't both be true. We can't constantly admit to sin and say that we are born of God, no. WE can't continue in indwelling sin and still expect to be children of God. It must be rooted out of the heart, and God has made provision for that.

Now blievers do sin, but not perfect believers. If any person sin in thought word or deed they are being sanctified, but if one does not offend in thought word and deed they are perfect.[/b]

1. I am not missing that point, but you are twisting it out of context and running to the extreme with it. Of course we do not sin, that is, sin willfully against the knowledge of the truth. A true saint will not sin in such a way, But if he does, he has an advocate with the Father.

2. All are sanctified immediately when they are justified in the initial sense of being consecrated to God and set apart for service. However, there is another type of sanctification which involves a lifelong process, and it is a continual and perpetual work until final redemption (see 2 Cor 7:1). Perfecting holiness is a life-long process.

3. Furthermore, the experience and testimony of the saints further confirms this. No saint can say they are sinlessly perfect, for if they continue for even 10 whole years without ANY sin, known or unknown, willful or unwillful, but then they sin, then that cancels out their perfection, proving that they were never initially perfected to begin with, otherwise they would not have stumbled again.

[b]I could say so much more. But I will see what you think about what I wrote. But I will leave it there, I just wanted to comment a bit on some of things you said. You asked our opinions so therefore I gave it. I think that you did a good job exhorting people to not be condemned by the accusations of the devil and all that. I also think you pointed out some good things about legalism and what not.[/b]

I, too, could say so much more. But that is what I think about what you said.

[b]But none of those mean you cannot live a sinless life, legalism and condemnation are not legit arguments to tell people they are not live a perfect life. Jesus was not afraid to do it, neither should we. 'Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.'[/b]

1. The scripture itself is reason enough to reject sinless perfection. I do not reject it for fear of legalism, I reject it for fear of heresy because scripture rejects it.

2. Jesus did not have original sin. He had no earthly father thru which to inherit it. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost and created as sinlessly perfect. He was the only man to be so. We are to strive to be perfect, following with all our hearts Christ as our great example, not that we can be sinlessly perfect like him, but that we forsake all to endeavor to strive for such a perfection, fighting the good fight of faith until God be please to take us home in final glorification.

3. I am shocked, once again, by your putting us on equal ground with Jesus, the Lord of all lords and King of all kings. Of course Jesus was perfect, and of course we’re not. No man ever has been. Only CHRIST.

In summary, let me say I love you as well and do not intend to *clash*. Let us discuss this in love if we must discuss it. I may not have time to reply in the next week, though, I’m on the road, so know I may be unable to respond. Look forward to hearing your response!

I
IRONMAN

brethren
Greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Reconciled to God.

i suppose bro Josef you are talking about a Pharasaical holiness which is more an show for men from the outside rather than the inwrought work of Perfecting done by Holy SPirit from the inside out?

i believe this is the formation of Christ in us which is the Desire of God and i believe also that it is possible to live a sinless life on this side being empowered by Holy Spirit. It seems to me that such Perfecting of His saints would be a really big thumb in the eye of the powers who are hellbent (no pun intended) to keep us in bondage to sin while on this side and so for God to loose us completely from sin on this side would be a thwarting of that big time. of course in Heaven we will be sinless, then again HE is coming for a spotless Church...well i guess all the same we are to strive to be sinless through Holy Spirit, after all He does only what He hears from Heaven so if we follow Him, we [i][b]can't[/b][/i] sin.

Grace and Peace be yours in Jesus' Name. AMEN

C
Compton

Cheap grace certainly is a vexing problem to consider when proclaiming true grace.

There is also the paradox of humility here to consider. That is to say, the closer one comes to grasping what God's holiness entails, the more miserable they are likely to become...unless the grace of God lifts them up. In this way, the lowly child of God is broken and contrite, but many a hardened 'holiness' preachers walk tall and speak loudly, seemingly on the basis of their own lives. (Unless they are simply poor communicators, who are having a hard time conveying the very essence of the gospel they have given their lives to convey.)

Compare some 'sinless' preachers to the very angels of heaven who are most certainly sinless in thought and deed, beings without our Earthly corruption, and yet even they cover themselves from the unequaled holiness of God. In fact, they are beings designed with multiple sets of wings for just such protection. (As witnessed both by Isaiah and John.)

The point here is that none of us dare approach God on any other basis then by the blood of Jesus.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Reconciled to God.

Blessings,

MC

I
IRONMAN

BRETHREN
Greetings once again in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Reconciled to God. AMEN.

Bro Mike thank you for your response! Indeed the closer one gets to God, the more of one's iniquity is exposed and the deeper the contrition one feels. Bless God for His Grace which lifts us up! Indeed the feeling of brokenness and contrition helps to maintain humility by reminding us of what we are apart from Christ, wrecthes, lest we think more of ourselves than we should and less of the Grace and MErcy afforded us by the Blood making it a cheap thing. Heaven keep us from such!AMEN.

My wife shared with me some time ago about how God would point out her shortcomings to her daily which she would repent of, then she would think "surely i have repented of it all" when this thought came, He would show her something more to repent of...He does the same with me, revealing things to us both which we had no hope of even considering to be issues needing repentance except for His Mercy. This is an inwrought work from the inner man out which is the true nature of God's dealings with us vs the holiness of the Pharisees which is an outward show sustained by the flesh without a corresponding inward work the end of which was shown in the accusation and subsequent crucifixion of the Messiah; this was the exposure of the nature of the spirit behind their "holiness", the devil himself!

EDIT

As the Jews killed the Christ, proving the nature of the "holiness" professed by the Pharisees to be spurred by the spirit of satan, the parallel in the Church is the persecution of those who have had this inward work wrought in them by God by those who are behaving as Pharisees thinking themselves to be doing God a favour. of course i believe some Pauls will come out of this!

Compare some 'sinless' preachers to the very angels of heaven who are most certainly sinless in thought and deed, beings without our Earthly corruption, and yet even they cover themselves from the unequaled holiness of God. In fact, they are beings designed with multiple sets of wings for just such protection. (As witnessed both by Isaiah and John.)

this right hits home...smack in the nose! If even those angels which attend the very throne of God must avert their own eyes, even cover their whole bodies from head to toe in the presence of a Holy God...whoa do we see the gravity of this?!

something which perhaps we ought to consider though is that Ezekiel, Isaiah, John all saw God on His throne though and had no need of being covered. Perhaps this is one of those things which angels long to look into, the unique nature of the relationship which man has with God. We are told by God through Paul we can boldy approach the throne of Grace being vovered by the Blood and make our requests known to God.

Praise God for the Blood of Jesus!

Grace and PEace be yours in His Name. AMEN.

S
sermonindex

Josef_Urban said:...Over-emphasizing a high degree of holiness causes those who sit under such teaching, if they believe it, to examine themselves vigorously, over and over, to see if there is the smallest or tiniest degree of anything unholy in them. As extreme holiness is continually emphasized, they continue to examine themselves, and as soon as they find something unholy, they condemn themselves for it and fall into the trap of self-condemnation. They then continue to examine themselves almost endlessly, and their focus gets removed from Christ and His love, grace, and mercy, and their focus gets put on themselves and their works. Their righteousness becomes based on their deeds, works, and performance before God, rather than in the finished work of the Cross through the faith of Christ. Perfection becomes an obsession, and the sight of the Cross is at a loss.

Rather than preaching in such a way as to convict sinners and strengthen the faith of the saints, many go to the error of extreme holiness and preach in such a way as to condemn both sinners and saints alike. Now, this is not to say that a true saint will never need to be convicted about anything, or that we should never preach hard messages. Our preaching needs to be designed in such a way that it convicts instead of condemns, and that it is useful for spiritual growth and not spiritual destruction. If our preaching doesn’t pierce through and cut asunder the hearts of men like a sharp, two-edged sword, then what we’re preaching isn’t the true Word of God! But, at the same time, if it doesn’t apply the healing properties of that blessed Balm of Gilead after it wounds, and bind up the broken hearts with the bandages of Christ’s love, then it is potentially destructive to the souls of men. There is a fine line, and that line is determined by the perfect orderly balance of God’s wisdom according to the leading of the Spirit...

Thank you for this thread, Bro Josef. I know exactly what you are talking about, having been (until fairly recently) in a state of almost constant guilt and self-condemnation for all of my life.

Maybe, as some have said, there are "technical" faults with some of what you wrote, but the danger you warned of is only too real.

In the 1970's and 80's I used to go to conferences of a certain holiness group that grew out of the house church movement. There were some wonderful speakers and some wonderful truths expounded that weren’t normally preached in other circles.

And yet, to someone who already lives in condemnation, it indeed has a danger.

At least once, someone from that tradition asked me if I was born again, as if they doubted it very much. The concept of having a "new pure heart" was much preached on, yet my heart felt anything but pure, and in the end drove me to despair, and to doubting if I was born again.

But in that case, the Lord had allowed me to be very deeply deceived, because the cry "Abba, Father", that had then been in my heart for at least 16 years (from the day after my conversion late one night), was a lie!

And if you can't trust GOD, who can you trust?

For the only time in my life I dimly understood why people commit suicide. For if God Himself has deceived you then there is no-one else, no ground of appeal, no hope in heaven or earth.

It shook my soul to its very foundations; but when the shaking stopped, I found I was still on the Rock.

For that reason I KNOW that nothing can separate from the love of Christ.


In the years since, I began to climb slowly and painfully out of the pit of guilt and discouragement, and of constantly striving to be holy and as constantly conscious of failure.

A year or so ago the Lord at last freed me from this huge burden of guilt (though I still have to be careful of this weak spot)

As you say, there has to be a balance...

Blessings

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

The way I have come to understand this is that the perfection IS commanded of us, and IS real, (as some have shown and quoted from scripture) and can be outworked in practice.

And yet, it is not OUR perfection, not OUR righteousness, but HIS.

This takes all the strain and striving and legalism and self-righteousness out of living a holy life.

"...not I but Christ lives in me..."

"The LORD our righteousness".

I have no righteousness, no perfection of my own, and never shall have. But as He increasingly lives in me, so His life is outworked in the midst of my life.

It isn't my responsibility any more. For this perfect life is not of the will of the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man, but OF GOD(John 1:13)

My responsibility is to receive and co-operate with that life of Christ within. AS Mary did in hte natural when she agreed to let the Lord use her body to bring forth the Messiah.

Striving for personal perfection or holiness is an insult to His perfect Holiness who dwells within us, when we receive Him.

Blessings

Jeannette

R
RobertW

MC: The point here is that none of us dare approach God on any other basis then by the blood of Jesus.

Amen. I have enjoyed reading through all of this. I have enjoyed more being on the streets ministering with these men- [i]turning our swords upon the enemy.[/i] Hope to do it again soon. ;-)

I
IRONMAN

sis Jeannette
Greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Justified and Perfected. AMEN.


LittleGift wrote:
The way I have come to understand this is that the perfection IS commanded of us, and IS real, (as some have shown and quoted from scripture) and can be outworked in practice.

And yet, it is not OUR perfection, not OUR righteousness, but HIS.

This takes all the strain and striving and legalism and self-righteousness out of living a holy life.

"...not I but Christ lives in me..."

"The LORD our righteousness".

I have no righteousness, no perfection of my own, and never shall have. But as He increasingly lives in me, so His life is outworked in the midst of my life.

It isn't my responsibility any more. For this perfect life is not of the will of the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man, but OF GOD(John 1:13)

My responsibility is to receive and co-operate with that life of Christ within. AS Mary did in hte natural when she agreed to let the Lord use her body to bring forth the Messiah.

Striving for personal perfection or holiness is an insult to His perfect Holiness who dwells within us, when we receive Him.

Blessings

Jeannette

i bless God for what He said through you here. Indeed this is the thing, the Perfection which we are to become is that of Christ which is an inside-out work rather than the pharisaic outside only type. The former can only be done by Christ, the latter, only by the arm of the flesh.

and yes we need to be coworkers with Holy Spirit in this endevour by (as my dear bro Rahman would say) submitting and surrendering. Srtiving for personal holiness out of the flesh will betray us because when we are confronted with the truth of God, the spirit behind that false holiness (if we can even call it that) will manifest violently.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

D
death2self

I'm reminded of what my pastor's pastors told them "Preach judgment with mercy" with a long finger pointing at both of them.

F
Forevidence

[b]This is a rebuttal to all those who misinterpret I John 1:8, and lay a stumbling block for saints on there way to entire sanctification....[/b]


[b]Exposing Bad Exposition:
Answering Opposition to True Holiness[/b]

[i]
By G.A. Jarquin[/i]

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now some have labored long and hard to overthrow the saints’ holy faith by exclaiming that this passage of scripture is proof that a perfect sinless life is not possible on this green earth. I hope to refute and expose that faulty doctrine by making it plain and easy for all saints to understand this passage of scripture. It is true that there are many hard passages that seem to contradict a holy sinless life after conversion, but these are just that: seemingly hard passages. With a true and unbias look at scripture one is able to come to a conclusion that perfection is God’s heart for all His saints. This verse is one of those seemingly contradictory passages; however with the a brief view of context and proper scriptural exposition, such a fog and smoke screen that has been put up by the devil and mislead men will quickly vanquish as the light and the path of the Just grows brighter and brighter unto the perfect day.

I will begin by stating briefly the belief of those who misinterpret this scripture. Erroneously, some believe that this passage applies to believers always. In other words, that if a believer claims to have no sin, then he is deceived and the truth is not in him. This conclusion is drawn from the following:
1.) That the Greek language is in the present tense; therefore it must mean that we as saints still actively sin whether through indwelling or outward sins,
2.) That because John is the author, the Apostle John includes himself under the category of those who still do sin,
3.) Therefore, this scripture proves perfection to be impossible, and
4.) Anybody to claim they have no sin implies they are deceived.

Now all these statements have scriptural answers and rebuttals and I will get to that before this article is through, but first I want to exposit this text properly so that none are left in the dark and without a hope for a present deliverance from all sin including indwelling sin.

[b]Interpretation of the Verse[/b]

First to understand this verse one must look at the connection that John has just made with the previous verse which says, “1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

Note the end of the verse that states that when we are in the light as He is in the light, we are then able to fellowship with brethren of the household of God, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL SIN.

This is often overlooked by those who would try to use its proceeding verse as a stumbling block for those who are on the highway of holiness. The Apostle clearly taught that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL SIN, including indwelling and outward sins, all sin! So if the Apostle is stating that “we,” including himself, all presently sin, then the Apostle is not only in complete contradiction of his previous statement but also living in sin that very moment. This is a ridiculous conclusion to come to and one that would only be conceived in a heart that is not cleansed completely. If the Apostle John was stating that he too was in sin, then indwelling sin has become the inspiration of this text and not the Holy Ghost. Holy men wrote the Holy Scriptures! Not unholy prideful men struggling with sin who called themselves apostles. Such ministers would be ministers of so called righteousness, when they are nothing but devils in a false light. No the scripture says, “holy” men! Further, a blatant contradiction would be present if the “we” in these verses includes the person who claims to be cleansed. But not so; simply, the connection goes like this: "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, . . . the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
So the question is this: “Is the cleansed person that states ‘we’ actually cleansed or sinning?” Which one is it? John would have never written such a foolish and contradictory statement, and neither would the Holy Ghost. God makes no mistakes. Those who include John in this statement and believe he was in sin, bring down the Apostle to be an absurd writer. Only bad exposition can reduce John to such absurdity. It is like a medic telling all the people in the world that there is a medicine that cures all disease and then he himself is suffering of the same disease. No, the Apostle had experienced perfect love and holiness and could therefore speak of it. He had been cleansed by the blood of Jesus of both inward and outward sins.

So the question remains, “who is John talking about?” I believe that the “we” in the text is speaking of mankind: all those who have come from Adam and Eve. It is important to understand that one of the reasons John wrote this epistle was to come against the heretical teachings of the Gnostics of his day. One of their false teachings was that hey had never sinned. Sin was only a figment of imagination and sin only appeared upon the body but never really touched the soul and spirit. Therefore the soul was free from all pollutions of sin and its nature. Moreover, the Gnostics never really saw their need for a cleansing by the blood of the Lamb. Neither will any person who goes on thinking that they have never ever sinned. One who is like the Pharisees would never admit to committing any sin at all. This brings me to my next point.

Robertson’s Word Pictures correlates this verse in I John to a passage that the same author penned years before: “Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth” (John 9:41). This word picture is the same word picture that John is using in this First epistle. The Pharisees would never confess their sin to Jesus therefore their sin remained! Some of them were like Paul in believing themselves blameless in light of the Law; therefore were strict in their useless works. They gave their alms, encompassed land and sea to make disciples, believed in the coming of the Messiah, preached, and did all things that seemed good. But their problem was that they had not internal righteousness: they did not have universal conformity to the perfect law of God inwardly. Some were deceived by this and so never sought to be justified by faith alone in prayer to God. The apostle is referring to these. He is talking about those who would never even consider themselves unworthy of coming before God. He spoke of those who looked straight into heaven without a bowing down in penitence; those who would not ever consider themselves sinners. Those are the self deceivers that John warns us against. But those who, like the Publican, were willing to beat their breast at their inward and outward sins, come to Jesus humbly, and confess their sins were cleansed from all sin and all unrighteousness. Precisely what our text in the proceeding verse: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). So not only is our sin pardoned but all unrighteousness is then cleansed, including what some would call indwelling sin. Praise God He does exceedingly far above all we ask or think!

The scripture here clearly states and eradicates the idea that one is able to cleansed from indwelling sin. The verse says that by His blood we are 1. Pardoned of all our sins, and 2. Sanctified by the cleansing of all unrighteousness from our hearts.

This clearly the Apostles intention, for he goes on to say later in the same epistle, that “he who has this hope in him, purifies himself as He is pure.” He also says that, “1Jn 3:5-7 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” What are we to believe but the plain truth of this text. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which is sin; both and its inward and outward workings. In Him there is no sin, neither indwelling or outward, and the Apostle says that we should be deceived by no one, that he who does righteousness is as righteous as He is righteous, and how was Christ righteous, well He hand neither indwelling nor outward sins. This is our hope and great expectancy in this life, for sin to be rooted out in all its forms. Jesus was not just outwardly righteous as the hypocrites of his day, He was inwardly and outwardly righteous. Perfect righteousness as the one of Christ is what we are to have after we are pardoned and completely sanctified , for as verse 9 declares He cleanses us not only from all our sin, but ALL our unrighteousness, so we can be righteous as He is righteous. Glory!

The next verse states, “1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

This, as many commentators state, is the verse that explains verse 8; it comments on the idea in verse 8 that says, “If we say we have no sin.” Now obviously none could say that; none should dare say. If so, the truth is not in them and the blood cannot atone for them. The blood is not able to cleanse what we are not willing to confess when we come to Christ, but once it is confessed it can be cleansed and pardoned. God can go on to perfect the work in us by cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

The great deception the apostle is writing against is not the so called deception of living a sinless life after believing in Christ. Instead he seeks to destroy the delusion that a man before conversion never has had any sin or any transgression, and therefore has no need of a Savior. But we know that the scriptures have completely confined all men without Christ under sin.

If this is not the plain meaning of text then all the verses written are a contradiction. It is a contradiction to say that all men, especially saints, must confess they have indwelling, and sometimes outward, sin everyday so that the blood of Jesus cleanses those sins but can’t or doesn’t remove the unrighteousness. No, God is able to forgive all sins and remove all unrighteousness. Either we confess everyday to sinning or we confess everyday He is, and He is able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness! I would rather choose the latter: to believe God is able o remove all unrighteousness in my heart, mind, soul, and body. Such faith would not be beyond what the Bible says. Jesus Himself told me to be holy as He is holy. Not to mention that the Beloved Apostle wrote to us so that we sin not! ( I John 2:1). So which one is it? Did he write so that we continue to confess our sin to stay humble? Or did He write to us to not sin? It seems clear that from the rest of the scriptures in this epistle that he believes sin is of the devil and the Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil; that in Him there is not sin, and he who abides in Him does not sin!

Here are a few great men who believe and interpret verse 9 in the same way…
John Wesley in his book Plain Account of Christian Perfection wrote:
“But St. John himself says, 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves;' and, 'If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.'
"I answer, (1.) The tenth verse fixes the sense of the eighth: 'If we say we have no sin,' in the former, being explained by, 'If we say we have not sinned,' in the latter, verse. (2.) The point under consideration is not, whether we have or have not sinned heretofore; and neither of these verses asserts that we do sin, or commit sin now. (3.) The ninth verse explains both the eighth and tenth: 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' As if he had said, 'I have before affirmed, The blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin.' And no man can say, 'I need it not; I have no sin to be cleansed, from.' 'If we say, we have no sin, that 'we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves,' and make God a liar: But 'if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just,' not only 'to forgive us our sins,' but also 'to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,' that we may 'go and sin no more.' In conformity, therefore, both to the doctrine of St. John, and the whole tenor of the New Testament, we fix this conclusion: A Christian is so far perfect, as not to commit sin.
"This is the glorious privilege of every Christian, yea, though he be but a babe in Christ. But it is only of grown Christians it can be affirmed, they are in such a sense perfect, as, Secondly, to be freed from evil thoughts and evil tempers. First, from evil or sinful thoughts. Indeed, whence should they spring? 'Out of the heart of man,' if at all, 'proceed evil thoughts.' If, therefore, the heart be no longer evil, then evil thoughts no longer proceed out of it: For 'a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.' -John Wesley
Adam Clarke also agreed in his Commentary of the Epistle of St. John and wrote the following:

“1Jn 1:8 -
If we say that we have no sin - This is tantamount to 1Jo_1:10 : If we say that we have not sinned. All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and therefore every man needs a Savior, such as Christ is. It is very likely that the heretics, against whose evil doctrines the apostle writes, denied that they had any sin, or needed any Savior. In deed, the Gnostics even denied that Christ suffered: the Aeon, or Divine Being that dwelt in the man Christ Jesus, according to them, left him when he was taken by the Jews; and he, being but a common man, his sufferings and death had neither merit nor efficacy.
We deceive ourselves - By supposing that we have no guilt, no sinfulness, and consequently have no need of the blood of Christ as an atoning sacrifice: this is the most dreadful of all deceptions, as it leaves the soul under all the guilt and pollution of sin, exposed to hell, and utterly unfit for heaven.
The truth is not in us - We have no knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus, the whole of which is founded on this most awful truth - all have sinned, all are guilty, all are unholy; and none can redeem himself. Hence it is as necessary that Jesus Christ should become incarnated, and suffer and die to bring men to God.”-Adam Clarke

Charles Finney, a great advocate of sanctification, believed the same. In answering objections to perfection and sinless living in his Systematic Theology, stated:
“6. Another objection is founded upon 1Jo_1:8 : "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Upon this I remark:
(1.) Those who make this passage an objection to the doctrine of entire sanctification in this life, assume that the apostle is here speaking of sanctification instead of justification; whereas an honest examination of the passage, if I mistake not, will render it evident that the apostle makes no allusion here to sanctification, but is speaking solely of justification. A little attention to the connexion in which this verse stands will, I think, render this evident. But before I proceed to state what I understand to be the meaning of this passage, let us consider it in the connexion in which it stands, in the sense in which they understand it who quote it for the purpose of opposing the sentiment advocated in these lectures.
They understand the apostle as affirming, that, if we say we are in a state of entire sanctification and do not sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Now if this were the apostle's meaning, he involves himself in this connexion in two flat contradictions.
(2.) This verse is immediately preceded by the assertion that the "blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin." Now it would be very remarkable, if immediately after this assertion the apostle should mean to say, (as they suppose he did,) that it does not cleanse us from all sin, and if we say it does, we deceive ourselves; for he had just asserted, that the blood of Jesus Christ does cleanse us from all sin. If this were his meaning, it involves him in as palpable a contradiction as could be expressed.
(3.) This view of the subject then represents the apostle in the conclusion of the seventh verse, as saying, the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin; and in the eighth verse, as saying, that if we suppose ourselves to be cleansed from all sin, we deceive ourselves, thus flatly contradicting what he had just said. And in the ninth verse he goes on to say, that "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness;" that is, the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from all sin; but if we say it does, we deceive ourselves. "But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Now, all unrighteousness is sin. If we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, we are cleansed from sin. And now suppose a man should confess his sin, and God should in faithfulness and justice forgive his sin, and cleanse him from all unrighteousness, and then he should confess and profess that God had done this; are we to understand, that the apostle would then affirm that he deceives himself, in supposing that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin? But, as I have already said, I do not understand the apostle as affirming anything in respect to the present moral character of any one, but as speaking of the doctrine of justification.
This then appears to me to be the meaning of the whole passage. If we say that we are not sinners, that is, have no sin to need the blood of Christ; that we have never sinned, and consequently need no Saviour, we deceive ourselves. For we have sinned, and nothing but the blood of Christ cleanseth from sin, or procures our pardon and justification. And now, if we will not deny, but confess that we have sinned, "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." "But if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Finney summarized and defined what he believed the inspired author was saying in the last part of the verse. If that is not clear enough, I think John Fletcher paraphrased best when he said,

“…It appears that the text so dear to us, and so mistaken by our opponents, has this fair, Scriptural meaning: -- "If we [followers of Him who came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance] say, We have no sin [no native depravity from our first parents, and no actual sin, at least no such sin as deserves God's wrath; fancying we need not secure a particular application of Christ's atoning and purifying blood] we deceive ourselves, and the truth [of repentance and faith] is not in us."

This statement is what I believe, the whole meaning of the text and nothing else. It is clear that John was not stating that a saints sins all the time, nor seven times a day, nor anything of the sort. Instead he is upholding the truth of the gospel within the doctrines of justification and entire sanctification as a true holiness preacher would. A true holiness preacher would uphold the standard of living without inward and outward sin. All the previously quoted preachers were men that preached holiness. They never interpreted this passage of scripture any other way. Only those that deny a complete victory over all sin use 1 John 1:8 to propagate their views to say that it is not possible to live without sin in this life.

There are many others who viewed this scripture verse the same way, but I will not continue to quote preacher after preacher since it is clear that: 1.) John would never contradict himself so clearly while writing holy scripture, 2.) Jesus blood is efficient enough to cleanse of all sin and eventually all unrighteousness, and 3.) Those who are deceiving themselves are those who will not confess their sin and come to Jesus for justification.

[b]Other Truths to Consider[/b]

If this scripture (verse 8 ) is understood to teach that Jesus just covers our sins and is not efficient to sanctify us inwardly in all parts, then you have trampled already on the blood of the everlasting covenant. It is to say that Jesus is presently here and able to heal all our diseases, but even as people go to reach out to Him to receive some virtue flowing from Him their sickness is only suspended outwardly and under their body lies festering poisonous viruses that will not be removed until they die. No, when God heals, He heals to the uttermost removing all leprosy, and when God saves He saves to the uttermost.

If this scripture (verse 8 ) definitely confines under indwelling sin, then what will cleanse all our sin? Death is not able to purify us, and get rid of the indwelling sin. According to the following verse it is the “blood of Jesus that cleanses us (presently) from all sins and all unrighteousness,”

\t \tTo further clarify, the ‘we have no sin’ has a different meaning than what is normally understood. It does not at all imply the act of sin, but instead it is the idea of guilt when examining the original language. This knowledge throws in a new spin on the whole text. In light of this, the verse could be interpreted to say, those ‘who say they have no guilt are deceived and the truth is not in them.” This view is clearly seen through the Greek word picture that only John uses in his writings and can be found to be used by no one else is the New Testament. Daniel Steele better explains the text in the following exposition,

“Bishop Westcott, the great English scholar, whose commentary on this Epistle [of First John], on which he spent most of his life, takes rank with the commentaries of Bishop Lightfoot, as most thorough and exhaustive, exceeding even German accuracy, and used by German professors themselves -- this exegete proves beyond all contradiction that the phrase, "to have sin," used only in two other texts in the Bible (John 9:41,15:22, 24) [I have quoted 9:41 earlier, here is John 15:22 ‘If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.’ and John 15:24 ‘If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.’], and only in John's writings, always signifies, not a guiltless evil tendency, but guilt. "Like corresponding phrases, to have faith, to have life, to have grief, to have fellowship, it marks the presence of something which is not isolated, but a continuous source of influence. It is distinguished from 'to sin,' as the sinful principle is distinguished from the sinful act itself." "To have sin" includes the idea of "Personal Guilt." Bengel says, "not to have sin denies guilt." With this light thrown upon the text, let us read it again: "If we say that we have no personal guilt at the present moment, although the blood of Jesus Christ has just this hour cleansed us from all sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." According to this, every testimony to the remission of the guilt of sin is a deception and a falsehood.”

That little bit of light changes the whole meaning of the text and not because we have added to it, but because a proper exegete shows that this is the true meaning of the author.

[b]Objections Answered[/b]

No matter what the objections to this doctrine of Christian Perfection are, and no matter which new ones come forth, it is plain to see that whatever might be designed by antinomians or whatever is constructed by mislead believers to make these passages say that this I Epistle of John is confining and restricting all under sin, we know (As I’ve previously discussed) that this is not so. To condescend and accept such a teaching would be to destroy the three legs that hold up this epistle: 1.) John’s purpose in writing the Epistle: “I write to you that ye sin not,” and against Antinomian heretics like Gnostics, 2.) to the context of chapter, and 3.) The pure and strict doctrine which he enforces in the rest of the Epistle which is mainly that light and darkness are separate, and that righteousness and sin are as far apart from each other as Jesus and Satan. But for the sake of clarity, let’s discuss some common objections.

“ All Greek Scholars state that this ‘we’ is in the present tense, therefore sin is in John and all believers through indwelling sin.” This is not true since I have quoted some scholars that do not believe that. “To have sin” is not an act of sin, but guilt. Guilt must be admitted by Pharisee, Publican, and any other type of sinner before he can come to Christ. If not their ‘sin’ or ‘guilt’ remains as Jesus stated in John 9:41. As I have already brought out, this clearly shown along with the very words of Jesus in the Greek word picture that is found only in two places in the New Testament: in John’s gospel and in his Epistle.

To further answer this good question, I would I would like to draw your attention the original language. Anyone that is familiar with Greek, would know that the ‘present tense’ in the Greek is not the same type of present tense we use in the English language. Actually, it is very different. It actually expresses a ‘present continuous’ action and not a single act. This would causes a huge problem since the rest of the epistle rebukes all continuous acts of sins, and according to this bad exegete, John would be saying “He who says he has no ‘present continual’ sin is deceived and the truth is not in him.” This is horrible, especially since he says to not be deceived, “he who does righteousness is a righteous as He is righteous, He who sins (continually) is of the devil!” This is utterly ridiculous as you can see. The present tense in fact brings more support to those who believe that verse 8 says “if we (continue to) say we have no sin (guilt) are deceived.”

\tFurther, the word is not even a verb! What?!?! Most will say, that is right the word “αμαρτιαν266 N-ASF” is parced not as a verb but a noun. Now what does that mean? That means that the phrase “to have no sin” is a thing, and is describing not continual present acts of sin but instead it is describing a sin principal, indwelling sin, or the principal of guilt. This means that John, like all believers, is rightly expressing that he was guilty of crucifying the Lord of glory but not stating that he was indwelled by sin or committing sin outwardly. Truthfully, because we all have sinned in times past, and because of our sins it is that the Lord of Glory died. It was our fault! When there is a full acknowledgment of personal guilt, then the Lord cleanses from all sins and guilt, so that their no longer remains condemnation for those in Christ Jesus! We could and should say, ‘we all have guilt (to have sin)’ and remain without sinning that very moment. Which leaves room for the possibility in the rest of their lives to be without acts of sin. This many of the Greek scholars know, but will not point out to the public because of their bias. But praise God that the scripture is still God’s words not men’s!


“The Apostle John includes himself under category of those who still do sin.” This is absurd with such light that has been shed abroad on the subject already. John has not admitted to acts of sin, but instead the very opposite: that he is in perfect love and that he keeps all of God’s commandments. The only claim that can be rightly attributed to John by those who oppose this view is that John is admitting guilt of having sinned in times past, and not in the present. John was a holy man and would not live contrary to his own writings; He loved God with all his heart, mind, soul, and strength.

“This scripture proves perfection impossible.” This is not true since the premise is wrong. To say he was in acts of sin in verse 8 is incorrect. He said no such thing. In fact, he states the opposite throughout the whole epistle and is one of the strongest advocates of perfect holiness in the whole New Testament. He constantly talks about the perfect love that God gives and of the one we return to him. Love is that moral action of God towards all his creatures, and we can exemplify and be imitators of God in love.

“For anybody to claim they have no sin implies they are deceived.” This point also falls apart because it is based on a false premise that implies that John is in sin in verse 8. The only ones that are deceived are those who never admit their guilt and need for a suffering Savior to atone for their sins and unrighteousness. These types of people exist amongst us today. People like the Christian Scientist’s deny sin and original sin, thus deny the need for Jesus’ atoning blood and sacrifice. They deny that His blood is needed to cleanse us of sin, which to them does not exist. There are also many Jews and Pharisees that deny their guilt in the shedding of Jesus’ blood. They deny their guilt and wash their hands free of the blood of Jesus as if water were enough to cleanse. These will not be atoned for by His blood, and will not have all their unrighteousness removed unless they repent. Christians are not to be scared away by this fall understanding of verse 8. Instead they are to earnestly perfect their holiness, and then confess it boldly when it is accomplished in their souls, for it is as much a work of God as justification.


[b]The Motive of Misinterpretation[/b]

Why would anybody misinterpret these scriptures? I believe I have a few answers such a question which of none are fitting for anyone who call themselves a saint.
[b]
1. Ignorance[/b]
- in the day that we are living in, we have many apostate teachers who go forth to discourage and poison the minds of sincere believers by propagating views they don’t even know where they originated from. Some sincere Christians hear the accusing words of ‘sinless perfection’ and they are repelled by it because many so called teachers preach a watered down sanctification message. Others don’t know what they are saying or have never really studied it out for themselves. Living a sinless life was taught by many saints throughout the world, and I believe is clearly taught in scripture. It comes down to ignorance of the ‘scriptures and of the very power of God.’

[b]2. Indwelling Sin[/b] –Most believers want to excuse sins that are in their hearts and minds. They know they are saved and justified but how to overcome such wretched filthiness within them they do not know or are falsely taught by so called leaders of their church. They struggle with thoughts of sin and begin to form carnal doctrines to accommodate their sin and state that sin is within us and will not be removed until we die. Those who know the workings and the power of the Holy Ghost would never quench or grieve Him by saying such things. Only the heart that is still not completely controlled by the Spirit can muster up such justifications and we will sin until we die. I believe that those who write such things are not writing under inspiration of the indwelling Holy Ghost, but under the gall of bitterness of indwelling sin still seeping through their members.


[b]3. Bad Hermeneutics[/b]- We so often interpret scriptures with bad hermeneutics (a harmonizing of scripture) and that is not always our fault but rather just a lack of study and diligence to look at what the whole counsel of God’s word says. We can see clearly that the rest of the word of God resists sin and stands for holiness. It is especially seen in this epistle. It is so clear that John never contradicts himself throughout the whole epistle. He clearly says that all sin, indwelling or outward, is of the devil, and must be dealt with by the all cleansing blood of the Lamb. The scriptures clearly teach that one sin can cut us off eternally from God and that if we are true children of God, it can destroy our fellowship with our Father in heaven, and eventually lead to perdition because there is a sin that leads unto death, but not all of sin does. We must with the utmost faith believe that He is able to save to the uttermost all who call upon Him. So many people have not come to Christ for this thorough cleansing because so called leaders out there misuse and misunderstand the scripture as in this case. Many have been deceived to think that inward and outward sin is tolerated by God. Many saints have had to live with the idea that there is no cure for their inward struggles and indwelling sin, but according to the word of God, there is.

[b]
Conclusion[/b]

\t Many have been deceived to think that inward and outward sin is tolerated by God. Many saints have had to live with the idea that there is no cure for their inward struggles and indwelling sin, but there is according to the word of God. When unbelievers and believers look at this verse, unbelievers are strengthened in their sins, and believers get too comfortable in their indwelling sin. God is calling us to be cleansed of all sin and all unrighteousness.

I would like to encourage all those who are defenders and diligent studiers of truth to really look into this verse for themselves and that they be more noble minded like the Bereans, and to not just take carnal men’s doctrines to confine them under sin their whole lives. I pray that God will bless you all in your diligent study of the word of God. I would also like to end by quoting John Fletcher, “This doctrine of St. John is perfectly agreeable to that of our Lord, who said that ‘Judas had a devil,’ because he gave place to the love of money; and who called Peter himself ‘Satan,’ when he ‘savored the things of men,’ in opposition to ‘the things of God.” I hope that none fall into that snare that the devil has laid for all of us to excuse one sin or any sin.

R
roaringlamb

Much of what has been written has deeply saddened me, for the vast majority of it is the type of self centered sanctification that ultimately ends up in despair.

Have we all forgotten that we are Justified by faith? That is the acceptance into Heaven, when the Almighty Judge imparts life to a soul, and He declares them justified, He will not blot them out. Now we must also realize that true justification will produce sanctification as a process until glorification.

I digress as the whole reason we are accepted at all is Christ alone. There are no amount of good works you can do to be accpeted by the Father if you are not in Him, and conversely if you are in Him, you have every blessing.

Christ is our great Reward, not sinlessness, not sanctification, but Christ Himslef, the One who died for the ungodly that they might live to God.

Brethren much of what has been written here is no different than the Roman Catholic mixture of justification and sanctification. They blur the lines so that none can be justified unless sanctification is perfect. Yet as we all know if we are honest, it is an ongoing battle day by day. How then could any be saved? In the Roman system they invented purgatory to help explain away this dilemma.

Much of this also seems very much like the judaizers who were saying one could not be a CHristian unless... To them Paul adamantly said that a man is justified by faith alone. Consider this passage,
"Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

The point of the Christian belief is that man cannot be good enough, even after conversion. All is Christ, evrything we have is because of and through Christ.

Make much of Christ, preach Him, and the hope of life in Him, and through Him. Then let the Holy Spirit do His work of sanctification in those who are legitimately His, else we run the risk of becoming legal tyrants and ascetics who make much of our work and little to nothing of His.

S
sermonindex

Believe me, I mean no trouble here, but is it wrong to put the same post in two places ?

It sort of splits this discussion I think.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17545&forum=36&6

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sermonindex

I believe that Josef completely contradicts Jesus when he said in his article:

" a condition that still had a measure of sin dwelling within the flesh and that didn’t yet have full and final redemption from the presence of sin"

And

"If anybody professes to be a child of God, but has absolutely no admitted unworthiness and admits no present form of indwelling sin in some measure, then they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them."

This completely contradicts Christ who said:

Mt 23:25 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the [b]outside[/b] of the cup and dish, but [b]inside[/b] they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.

Mt 23:26 - Blind Pharisee, [b]first[/b] cleanse the [b]inside[/b] of the cup and dish, that the [b]outside[/b] of them may be clean also.

Outward obedience, but not inward obedience is Phariseeism!! Certainly true holiness is not what the Pharisees lived, outwardly obeying but inwardly sinning! No! True Christianity is purity of the inward heart, to have a perfect heart, that obeys God out of a loving heart!!

What can "inward sin" be other then sin of the heart! But what is the new birth but a new heart???? Inward sin is a will to sin. Inward sin is not an involuntary emotion or feeling of the flesh. But inward sin is a committal of the will, an evil intention.

If indwelling sin cannot be removed now by the Savior, but Christ can only remove outward sins, then Christ is an incapable and imperfect Savior! But such is a slanderous charge upon Christ!

And to say that the saints can only be perfected after death, but not before death, is to make death our Savior rather then the present Christ!!

--------------------

Also, Josef's idea of perfection is absurd, saying that a man who is perfect CANNOT sin again, or that a Christian perfected CANNOT sin after conversion.

It is a doctrine that teaches that true Christians live in a state of sinless-ness, having no sin. It teaches that from the moment one is truly born again, they will never sin again, and that anyone who does not live and walk in such a state is not saved

Those of us who teach Christian perfection do not teach that! That is a misunderstanding, a straw man arguement. I have never meet a preacher of perfection who ever said once you were perfected you could not fall from that perfection.

Perfection is not the inability to sin, but the unwillingness to sin. A sinlessly perfection Christian can backslide and sin, but they lose their salvation if they are in a state of sin of coarse if they know that they have sinned and are unwilling to repent.

Heb 3:12 - Take heed, [b]brethren[/b], lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in [b]departing from the living God[/b].

(What is a brethren departing from God in his heart, if it is not having inward sin?)

James 5:19-20 - [b]Brethren[/b], if any of you do [b]err from the truth[/b], and one convert him; Let him know, that he which [b]converteth the sinner[/b] from the error of his way shall save a soul from [b]death[/b], and shall hide a multitude of [b]sins[/b].

Christian perfection is a perfection of love, a perfection of the heart.

1Ki 8:61 - Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

1Ki 11:4 - For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

1Ki 15:3 - And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

1Ki 15:14 - But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

2Ki 20:3 - I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

1Ch 12:38 - All these men of war, that could keep rank, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel: and all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king.

1Ch 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

1Ch 29:9 - Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.

1Ch 29:19 - And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.

2Ch 15:17 - But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

2Ch 16:9 - For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

2Ch 19:9 - And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

2Ch 25:2 - And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart.

Ps 101:2 - I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

Isa 38:3 - And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

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sermonindex

Josef,

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE answer these questions!! It's very important! I posted them repeatedly on another forum, but you seemed to continually ignore them. I am hoping that you just didn't see them, and I am still believing in your willingness to defend your view.

Failure to directly answer these honest questions would only leave me to assume, that answering these questions would do great damage to your position, or that you simply haven't thoroughly thought about the issue at hand. Failure to answer these honest and sincere questions directly must reveal that you hold to an undefendable position.

These are it:

1. Does God want Christians to be sinless in this life?

2. Do real Christians want to be sinless in this life?

3. Does God want to reveal to us all our sin, all our "unknown sin"?

4. Do Christians want to repent of all sin, even "unknown sin"?

5. If we ask God to show us all our sin, will He answer that prayer?

If God will not answer that prayer, why not??

6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

If so, could we turn from all the sin that God shows us, even turn from all our sin if God shows us all of it??

--------------------------------------------------------------------

What is it that keeps us from being perfect?

I have heard only two reasons from people why we cannot be perfect.

1. Ignorance keeps us from perfection (As Patrick - Josef - Andrew maintain) i.e. unknown sin.

But again, what keeps God from revealing unknown sins to those who want them to be revealed? Does God not reveal sin to sinners who do not want them to be revealed? How much MORE would a sin hating God reveal all sin to those who want them to be revealed!!

2. The flesh or the body (as someone just posted) keeps us from being perfect in this life.

But what about the flesh or the body keeps us from being perfect? Is the flesh a sin itself, as Augustine and others maintained? Or does the flesh force us to sin, as others maintain?

Isn't the flesh only an INFLUENCE or a TEMPTATION towards sin, but not a sin itself, and not a CAUSATION to sin?? And isn't our will free? In which freedom, we can choose to submit to our flesh or choose to submit to the spirit?

If the flesh is only a tempation, and the human will is free, then the flesh does not prevent anyone from being perfect!!

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sermonindex

It would also seem that many define "inward sin" as a fleshly emotion or a feeling.

But a fleshly emotion or a feeling (lusts of the flesh) are not sin at all, but are temptation.

Sin is when the will voluntarily submits to unlawfully gratify the feeling, emotion, lust.

James says that we are TEMPTED by our own lust, and when we yeild to it, then it "bringeth forth sin". The flesh, or inward emotions, are a mere temptation. But yeilding to them is a sin.

But inward sin cannot be an involuntary emotion or an involuntary lust. Inward sin, which Christ COMMANDED the Pharisees to clean out, must be a voluntary committal of the will, or a sinfulness of the heart.

Inward sin can be nothing but the inward heart determined to sin, a selfish intention, or a will to sin.

Hense, to look with lust is adultery, to hate is murder. And why we are responsible to clean out the inside of the cup as well as the outside. And how all sin comes from the heart, that is, all sin comes from the will.

But Christian perfection is a perfection of love, a purity of the heart, when a man's intention is totally blameless, when he loves God supremely and his neighbor equally, seeking their welfare.

P
psalm1

Correct me if i am wrong, But, I havent heard anything about the role of the Holy Spirit in holiness.........hmmmmmm
David

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sermonindex


Lazarus1719 wrote:
1. Does God want Christians to be sinless in this life?
2. Do real Christians want to be sinless in this life?
3. Does God want to reveal to us all our sin, all our "unknown sin"?
4. Do Christians want to repent of all sin, even "unknown sin"?
5. If we ask God to show us all our sin, will He answer that prayer?
If God will not answer that prayer, why not??
6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?
If so, could we turn from all the sin that God shows us, even turn from all our sin if God shows us all of it??
-------------------------------------------------
7.What is it that keeps us from being perfect?
Hi Lazarus

I know this was addressed to Josef, by may I just respond to this?

You seem to have misunderstood, or maybe not noticed, what was said in my second message on this thread.

WE are not the sinless ones - JESUS is.

WE are not perfect - JESUS is

And if JESUS is in us then His perfection is in us, as a well of living water springing up.

That way HE gets all the glory, not us.

As we abide in Him, His sinless life springs up in us and is outworked through us.

We have to actively co-operate of course, but we are not sinless, we have "died to sin", which isn't the same thing!

Self-righteousness, righteousness that springs from self not from HIM, is "as filthy rags" as Isaiah said. He knew it first hand when he had a vision of God (Isaiah 6)

To take your questions one at a time - for they are good and searching questions, (and I'm not quite sure of the answers of some):

[color=000099] 1. Does God want Christians to be sinless in this life?[/color]

Yes, except WE are not the ones who are sinless.

[color=000099]2. Do real Christians want to be sinless in this life? [/color]

Same as the answer to 1.

[color=000099]3. Does God want to reveal to us all our sin, all our "unknown sin"? [/color]

Yes, as we can bear it

[color=000099]4. Do Christians want to repent of all sin, even "unknown sin"? [/color]

Yes

[color=000099]5. If we ask God to show us all our sin, will He answer that prayer? [/color]

Maybe, but that involves a revelation of His holiness that might destroy us.

[color=000099]If God will not answer that prayer, why not??[/color]

Because we may not be able to endure it.

[color=000099]6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin? [/color]

No

[color=000099]If so, could we turn from all the sin that God shows us, even turn from all our sin if God shows us all of it?? [/color]

Probably not
-------------------------------------------------
[color=000099]7. What is it that keeps us from being perfect? [/color]

The effects of the Fall, and the word of God that, "The soul that sinneth shall die".

The solution is that we indeed "die", and are "raised" again, spiritually, IN CHRIST.

That is what baptism symbolises.

It's all in the first part of Romans!

Blessings

Jeannette

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sermonindex

If we have died with Christ, and He is our all in all, and He dwells in us, can we ever miss the mark? Where are "we" then--our thoughts, our desires, our ambitions, our worries? Will He who began a good work in us not complete it?

The Scripture says that "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation" (Gal. 6:15). It is Christ--not us--who makes all things new. If my simple, childish faith in Him is not enough, then what is?

In Christ,
Slavyan

R
running2win

6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

No

[b]WHAT!?[/b] So maybe I have a bad temper and desperately long to overcome it because I know it's a greif to God and others and I know blowing up is sin and you're saying you believe that I have no hope of ever getting victory over it!? Maybe I struggle with drunkenness and am desperately seeking God to work in my life and set me free from that horrible sin and you're telling me I have no hope of ever being freed to the glory of God!? You need to realize before you go saying things like that that there are [b]HUNDREDS[/b] of people that look at these threads and you're telling all those sincere yet struggling christians that they're doomed to a life of sin! Jesus died to save His people from their [b]SIN[/b] and you're saying that they can't be saved from their sin!!! Did Christ die for nothing? If you're going to quote 1 John like the original post you've have to be fair and quote the rest of it where it says "Whosoever abideth in Him [b]SINNETH NOT![/b] So if I want to come to the place in my walk with God that I don't have to sin and you're saying I can never get there!? I know that if I fall I have an Advocate and that I don't lose my salvation because I got impatient or angry or something like that but I [b]KNOW[/b] that God can bring me to the place where I can live above [b]ALL[/b] sin. God forbid that many people see this thread.

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sermonindex


running2win wrote:
6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

No

[b]WHAT!?[/b] So maybe I have a bad temper and desperately long to overcome it because I know it's a greif to God and others and I know blowing up is sin and you're saying you believe that I have no hope of ever getting victory over it!? Maybe I struggle with drunkenness and am desperately seeking God to work in my life and set me free from that horrible sin and you're telling me I have no hope of ever being freed to the glory of God!? You need to realize before you go saying things like that that there are [b]HUNDREDS[/b] of people that look at these threads and you're telling all those sincere yet struggling christians that they're doomed to a life of sin! Jesus died to save His people from their [b]SIN[/b] and you're saying that they can't be saved from their sin!!! Did Christ die for nothing? If you're going to quote 1 John like the original post you've have to be fair and quote the rest of it where it says "Whosoever abideth in Him [b]SINNETH NOT![/b] So if I want to come to the place in my walk with God that I don't have to sin and you're saying I can never get there!? I know that if I fall I have an Advocate and that I don't lose my salvation because I got impatient or angry or something like that but I [b]KNOW[/b] that God can bring me to the place where I can live above [b]ALL[/b] sin. God forbid that many people see this thread.
Running2 Win, you have run much too fast here! You obviously haven't read what I wrote, just jumped with both feet on an imaginary error.

Go back and read my posts on this thread again, and hopefully you will understand what was meant.

Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

No

The emphasis of the "No" is on "are WE..."?

Do you seriously believe that YOU can overcome sin in your own strength?

Are you forgetting that JESUS could and did overcome ALL sin?

Are you forgetting the Word from the Cross, "IT IS FINISHED!"?

[u][b]I[/b][/u] can't turn from sin, but HE can turn me!


Blessings


Jeannette

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sermonindex

----------------------

These are some more remarks I would like to make:

1. I agree with Josef - Patrick - Andrew, along with Wesley - Brengle - Finney, etc etc, that all known and willfull sin must be repented of or else you are not saved.

2. The only thing it seems that I disagree with Josef - Patrick - Andrew on, is why unknown sin must remain unknown, or how long unknown sin must remain unknown.

I believe that God is willing and ready to reveal to us all of our sins so that we can turn from all of them and be perfect in this life according to His Holy Will.

3. Andrew, Wesley did not contradict himself when it came to perfection. The Wesleyan holiness movement taught that at conversion, all known and willfull sin was removed. But new converts, or new believers, still had sin inside of them called original sin, which need a second work of grace to be completely removed, ie a second blessing.

So Wesley did not contradict himself. He said new born christians had indwelling sin still, but sanctified Christians did not.

4. Augustine, Wesley, Brengle, Booth, all defined "Original Sin" which we inherit at birth as inward feelings or involuntary emotions of the flesh, a physical inclination, bias, or proneness towards sin. Augustine called it concupiscence.

I disagree with Augustine, Wesley, Brengle, and Booth, and agree with Finney on this issue. I believe that we inherit physical depravity from our parents, physical depravity is hereditary, but that this physical depravity is not a sin itself, but is a temptation to sin. Just how a drug baby inherits physical cravings for drugs, but has no moral guilt, and those physical cravings are temptation but not a sin.

5. I deny completely that inward cleansing is a second definite work, rather then a first work at conversion, because Jesus said "FIRST clean the INSIDE of the cup and then the OUTSIDE will be clean also". The first work is the inward cleansing of inward sin, which results in outward cleaniness of coarse.

6. I define inward sin as a heart or a will to sin, an evil intention or motive, but not a physical inward feeling or an involuntary emotion. What is physical and involuntary can only be tempation, but not a sin.

7. Inward sin must be removed at conversion, purity of heart, or repentance from all selfish motives, must take place before justification can occur. The only forgivable sins are the repented sins.

8. Physical feelings, involuntary emotions, the physical bias - inclination - proneness to sin is not a sin itself, but a temptation or an influence to sin, which will remain as long as we remain in this body, until the glorified body is recieved. There is no such thing as a physical regeneration, but only a spiritual - moral - heart regeneration in this life.

9. All known sin must be repented of for forgiveness and salvation to occur, and God is willing and able to reveal to us all of our sins, and all true Christians are willing to have all sins revealed to them, so that they can turn from all sin and be perfect in heart.

There is absolutely no excuse or reasonable answer as to why unknown sins must remain unknown for our whole life. Christ is a bright light which illuminates all.

--------------------------------------------

[b]ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION MUST COME BEFORE JUSTIFICATION[/b]

Because I feel that it has already been abundantly shown from reason and revelation that Christian perfection is required and attainable in this life at conversion, I think it best now to appeal to one of the great Revivalists and Giants of the faith:

Quotes from Professor and Revivalist Charles G. Finney, who was by far the most sound theologian since the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John. These quotes are from his Systematic Theology - 1851 Edition.

(For help in understanding these quotes, it must be understood that Finney defined sin as willfull transgression of known law, and that Christian perfection - entire sanctification is syonomous with complete and total repentance, which is the turning away from all known sin, which God reveals to us).

"Present sanctification, in the sense of present full consecreation to God, is another condition, not ground, of justification. Some theologians have made justification a condition of sanctification, instead of making sanctification a condition of justification." pg 467

"It certainly cannot be true, that God accepts and justifies the sinner in his sins. I may safely challenge the world to either reason or scripture to support the doctrine of justification in sin, in any degree of present rebellion against God. The bible everywhere represents persons as sanctified, and always expressly, or impliedly, conditionates justification upon sanctification, in the sense of present obedience to God." pg 468

"That present, full, and entire consecration of heart and life to God and his service, is an unalterable condition of present pardon of past sins, and of present acceptance with God." pg 468

"That the penitent soul remains justified no longer than this full hearted consecration continues. If he falls from his first love into a spirit of self pleasing, he falls again into bondage to sin and to the law, is condemned, and must repent and do his first work, must return to Christ and renew his faith and love, as a condition of his salvation. This is the most express teaching of the bible." pg 469

"In the lectures on justification and repentance, it has been shown that nothing is acceptable to God, as a condition of justification and of consequent salvation, but repentance that implies a return to full obedience to moral law." pg 497

"Now, as sanctification consists in perfect obedience to the law of God, and as the law requires nothing more then the right use of whatever strength we have, it is, of coarse, forever settled, that a state of entire sanctification is attainable in this life, on the ground of natural ability." pg 502

"If Paul lived without condemnation it must be because he lived without sin." pg 523

"It is plain, that men are naturally able to be entirely sanctified, in the sense of rendering entire and continual obedience to God, for the ability is a condition of obligation to do so." pg 533

"The objection, that it is irrational to expect to make such attainments in this life, as to get a complete victory over temptation and sin, must be groundless, or both the bible and the Holy Spirit are found false witnessess, but this cannot be, the thought of it is blasphemy." pg 594

"Men are naturally able to do all their duty, which is to be entirely sanctified." pg 489

"all true saints, while in a state of acceptance with God, do actually render for the time being, full obedience to known requirements of God; that is, that they do for the time being their whole duty, all that God, at this time, requires of them." pg 497

Now a couple from Asa Mahan, a dear friend of Finney's:

"Entire perfection in holiness is definitely and positively required of us in the bible, and that, for not rendering such obedience to God, we are wholly without excuse." Christian Perfect pg 8

"Entire sanctification, then, is attainable, or Christ failed, in one important respect, to finish the work which his father gave him to do." pg 15

--------------

- And so I agree with Finney that we inherit a physical bias towards sin, which will never be completely removed, which physical inclination is a tempation and not a sin.

- And that Christian Perfection is completely and total heart obedience to all known law and requirements, which God makes abundantly clear to all, and that one in a state of all possible obedience that they possible know to deliver, is in a state of moral or heart perfection.

- And that one who seeks to be saved must FIRST repent from all known sin, and thus be entirely sanctified or perfected before justification can occur, for only repented sins are forgivable sins.

- And that if a Christian in a state of complete obedience falls from it, they must repent or else they will perish.

- As we grow in knowledge, we must grow in obedience to that knowledge, so that in a sense a perfect Christian is still growing in obedience. If a perfect Christian grows in knowledge, but fails to obey that newly percieved knowledge, they obviously fall from a state of holiness and obedience.

S
sermonindex

I must admit I really didn't read too far in on this post. Mainly because it was so long. But let me just say from an outside, didn't read any of these posts perspective. Christ I believe almost everyone in our day would consider over-holy. And one to be cursed or fall from a true over-holiness or holiness is impossible. Because true holiness is found in beholding God. It is not anything we obtain out of the flesh but Spirit. It is any preaching that goes against this I believe to be fleshly teaching or practical preaching which of course will lead to self focus self-attaining holiness and an almost certain fall. Do I make sense at all?

S
sermonindex

Here is A. W. Tozer on entire sanctification, how Jesus Christ saves the whole man, and how he doesn't save men in peices!

http://www.fireonthealtar.com/compilations/usavedmeJesus/AWTozer%20Preaching.mp3

S
sermonindex

If the original post was too long for some to read, these were the simple points that I mainly wanted to communicate:

1. I agree with Josef - Patrick - Andrew, along with Wesley - Brengle - Finney, etc etc, that all known and willfull sin must be repented of or else you are not saved.

2. The only thing it seems that I disagree with Josef - Patrick - Andrew on, is why unknown sin must remain unknown, or how long unknown sin must remain unknown.

I believe that God is willing and ready to reveal to us all of our sins so that we can turn from all of them and be perfect in this life according to His Holy Will.

3. Andrew, Wesley did not contradict himself when it came to perfection. The Wesleyan holiness movement taught that at conversion, all known and willfull sin was removed. But new converts, or new believers, still had sin inside of them called original sin, which need a second work of grace to be completely removed, ie a second blessing.

So Wesley did not contradict himself. He said new born christians had indwelling sin still, but sanctified Christians did not.

4. Augustine, Wesley, Brengle, Booth, all defined "Original Sin" which we inherit at birth as inward feelings or involuntary emotions of the flesh, a physical inclination, bias, or proneness towards sin. Augustine called it concupiscence.

I disagree with Augustine, Wesley, Brengle, and Booth, and agree with Finney on this issue. I believe that we inherit physical depravity from our parents, physical depravity is hereditary, but that this physical depravity is not a sin itself, but is a temptation to sin. Just how a drug baby inherits physical cravings for drugs, but has no moral guilt, and those physical cravings are temptation but not a sin.

5. I deny completely that inward cleansing is a second definite work, rather then a first work at conversion, because Jesus said "FIRST clean the INSIDE of the cup and then the OUTSIDE will be clean also". The first work is the inward cleansing of inward sin, which results in outward cleaniness of coarse.

6. I define inward sin as a heart or a will to sin, an evil intention or motive, but not a physical inward feeling or an involuntary emotion. What is physical and involuntary can only be tempation, but not a sin.

7. Inward sin must be removed at conversion, purity of heart, or repentance from all selfish motives, must take place before justification can occur. The only forgivable sins are the repented sins.

8. Physical feelings, involuntary emotions, the physical bias - inclination - proneness to sin is not a sin itself, but a temptation or an influence to sin, which will remain as long as we remain in this body, until the glorified body is recieved. There is no such thing as a physical regeneration, but only a spiritual - moral - heart regeneration in this life.

9. All known sin must be repented of for forgiveness and salvation to occur, and God is willing and able to reveal to us all of our sins, and all true Christians are willing to have all sins revealed to them, so that they can turn from all sin and be perfect in heart.

There is absolutely no excuse or reasonable answer as to why unknown sins must remain unknown for our whole life. Christ is a bright light which illuminates all.

P
poet

when we say perfect, were not meaning the same thing the bible is saying perfect.
we think of sinless perfection. Only Jesus was perfectly sinless, making him the perfect sacrafice for our inperfections.
In Matthew 5:45 ye shall therefore be PERFECT, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is PERFECT.
tevleioß Teleios (tel'-i-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Adjective
from (5056)

brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

If we study other accounts of the word perfect used in the new testament we will find that it is talking about being fully equiped for God's work, to be able to be victorious over the enemy, to be able to live victorious from the desires of the flesh
to act mature and christ like when being percuted by the world.
Even though we may be fully equiped or mature in Christ. (perfected/perfect) we may sin and if we do sin we have an advocate with the father.
The big word in this passage is IF....
yet some will tend to use this passage to trample the blood of christ underfoot with their worldly life style.

Do I sin? Yes I do, God please forgive me, cleanse me and please keep revealing my faults so I can repent, turn away from any unrighteousness, until someday I can truly be refined for noble purposes and not just common purposes.

S
sermonindex

Christian perfection is not going your whole life without sinning. Nobody has done that.

Neither is Christian perfection the inability to ever sin again. Free will means saints are always capable of sinning.

But Christian perfection is not having any known or willfull sins your life, and repenting of any sins as soon as you are aware of them.

S
sermonindex


ce4 wrote:
I must admit I really didn't read too far in on this post. Mainly because it was so long. But let me just say from an outside, didn't read any of these posts perspective. Christ I believe almost everyone in our day would consider over-holy. And one to be cursed or fall from a true over-holiness or holiness is impossible. Because true holiness is found in beholding God. It is not anything we obtain out of the flesh but Spirit. It is any preaching that goes against this I believe to be fleshly teaching or practical preaching which of course will lead to self focus self-attaining holiness and an almost certain fall. Do I make sense at all?
Yes, I think you are trying to say the same as I have been trying to say!

If we focus on becoming sinless,becoming holy, we are focussing on self.

We need to focus on HIM, and let Him sort out self - as He knows well how to do.

I spent many years being a spiritual hypochondriac,constantly looking within and sayin "What's wrong with ME?"

Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED!" Why can't we [i][b]believe[/b][/i] it and trust His life in us, instead of worrying and arguing about whether WE can be perfect!

Blessings

Jeannette

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sermonindex

If we just focus on loving CHRIST, then keeping ALL of His commandments will come naturally.

"If you love ME" Christ said, "keep my commandments."

The Apostle John confirmed this, by saying that the test to know weather or not someone loves God or not, or if someone is from God or the devil, is if KEEP God's commandments.

R
RobertW

Jesse's: Physical feelings, involuntary emotions, the physical bias - inclination - proneness to sin is not a sin itself, but a temptation or an influence to sin, which will remain as long as we remain in this body, until the glorified body is received. There is no such thing as a physical regeneration, but only a spiritual - moral - heart regeneration in this life.

Does everyone here concur with this statement? The reason I ask is because it is fundamental to our understanding of just was Entire Sanctification is. Can a person have an 'inclination' to sinning and that 'inclination' be other than indwelling [u]S[/u]in? Just asking. It has been my perspective that indwelling Sin or the spirit of disobedience (Eph 2) is synonymous with the [i]law of sin[/i] that governs the unregenerate.

To me, the Sin nature (which I know Finney and Jesse will reject) is that which is within the unregenerate that inclines them to commit a sin simply because God gave a commandment. It is rebellion against the known will of God as a source of fulfillment. A sinners 'meat' is to rebel against God. The regenerates 'meat' is do the will of God. The written Law 'empowers' or 'excites' this natural law (unnatural in the sense that it was obtained when Sin entered the human race) by giving it something to rebel against. I.e. I had not known lust if God had not said "thou shalt not covet."

So the Law caused all manor of forbidden desire in the unregenerate. But it is desire that is rooted in rebellion as opposed to lust that is rooted in the natural man. We could take a similar line for other 'inclinations'. What about anger and wrath? What about bitterness? What about an excessively critical attitude?

My point in mentioning these other things is that often folk do things that are completely unChristlike and they are the only person on earth that does not 'know' it. C.S. Lewis talks about a person looking in the mirror for hours and not being able to see things that are blatantly obvious to anyone that has spent more than 5 minutes with the person.

What if the reason I have no 'known sin' is because I have hardened myself to conviction? What if a person used to think something was a sin but did it until it is no longer a sin in their mind? This is how bad attitudes go unthwarted. Because it's not a sin that is loathed then it stays under the radar? Gluttony, greed, selfishness, haughtiness, meanness, impatience, etc. etc. fit into this category.

By 'known sin' are we really saying 'sins I don't want publicly known' so I feel exceptionally bad about them when I commit them; whereas I can act a fool and folk won't think anything about it? Is the whole 'known' part rooted in a selfish desire to preserve some image of ourselves were trying to project? Is the 'known sin' made known by the Holy Spirit our some inward mechanism that warns us when we are about to damage our reputation?

Is this when we are closest to God? Do we [i]feel[/i] close to God when we are keeping up reputations? Are we closest to God when we can look around and thank God were not like these wretched sinners? I pray I never get to a place where I cannot see just how far I am from Jesus Christ. I don't need a fresh sin to take me there either. I can simply look in the mirror. And I sometimes wonder if the reason we don't see revival in our lands is because, like the Jews and pharisees, the ministers once they get into a place where God can actually use them they start patting themselves on the back for their own sanctification and the brokeness that brought them into personal revival is replaced with a feeling of superiority. They are not broken enough to minister any more. They are puffed up. They wonder why there is little power.

I don't mean broken over some sinners condition or the nation or my city; but [i]my own[/i] condition. God resists the proud, but He gives grace to the humble. If we really want revival we are going to have to do some serious time looking in the mirror and [u]not[/u] for the sake of admiration.

R
RobertW

- And that Christian Perfection is completely and total heart obedience to all known law and requirements, which God makes abundantly clear to all, and that one in a state of all possible obedience that they possible know to deliver, is in a state of moral or heart perfection.

And if this type of Christian Perfection is required for final salvation then Jesus Christ is the only human being that will be ultimately saved. Myself, as a student of Old Testament law (with 5 semesters of the 613 laws as starters), exceedingly (ed.) familiar with the holiness of God as revealed in the New and Old Testament am [i]surely damned[/i] as it takes but a few seconds to see areas of my life where I fail in my representation of Jesus Christ and the holiness of God. I am a man of unclean lips left to myself and stand daily in need of the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

And if such be the case, that perfection to all of the known will of God be the requirement for salvation, and with no real certainty that tomorrow I will be any closer to emulating the personality of God on that level- I must surely be most miserable. But praise be to God that has delivered me from such a plight and offered salvation by grace through faith and not of myself (EPh. 2:8). And knowing I am secure in His grace as His workmanship ordained to good works. So long as I walk in faith, and draw [i]not[/i] back, His soul will surely have pleasure. The saving of the soul awaits if I continue to believe.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


RobertW, just skimming through here and saw this:


"To me, the Sin nature (which I know Finney and Jesse will reject) is that which is within the unregenerate that inclines them to commit a sin simply because God gave a commandment."


[i]...simply because God gave a commandment[/i]


Brings to mind this passage from Romans 7:


"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."

[i]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.[/i]


Have been meditating off and on with the thought that, instead of calling this the "sin-nature", it could be understood as our human nature, apart from sin itself. That is to say that, sin manifests in us because of our lack of the divine nature. That is, our human nature is not sinful, in and of itself, but is shown to be wanting. It is shown to be wanting whenever it is pressed and scrutinized under the weight and light of divine glory, manifested in His law.

As Major Ian thomas says,

"It takes God to be a man."


What was proved in the garden and ever since is that the human nature is not sufficient to bear, express, sustain and manifest the weight of the divine glory(by itself) as manifested in doing righteousness. Always. In every way. [b]And under every circumstance[/b].


It could not even do so under the best of conditions(Paradise), with the simplest of requirements(one command).


Christ, the second Adam, true God and true Man, alone succeeded in bearing the weight of divine glory, being first tested in the harshest of circumstances(alone in the wilderness) and with the most stricktest of demands(born under the Law).


It takes God to be a man.


What do you think?


Have rushed through this and am sure I left some that is ambigous in what I wrote, though I hope not too much.


Chris

S
sermonindex


Lazarus1719 wrote:
Here is A. W. Tozer on entire sanctification, how Jesus Christ saves the whole man, and how he doesn't save men in peices!

http://www.fireonthealtar.com/compilations/usavedmeJesus/AWTozer%20Preaching.mp3

thanks...

R
RobertW

ChrisJD: What do you think?

I think that the regenerate are returned [i]close[/i] to the state that Adam and Eve were in before the fall. I believe that the Sin that entered the human race is dealt with by regeneration as the regenerate are in Christ and Christ died unto Sin once on the cross. We are in Him- His experience becomes our experience. He is dead to Sin and we are [i]in[/i] Him.

Human nature surely is not sufficient to be 'the Divine Nature' even though we were created in the image of God. One may 'will' to do righteously, but may not be able to perform it. I may make promises that I cannot keep- not because I am unrighteous- but because circumstances may arise that do not allow me to perform what I promised.

History brings out this point clearly. Throughout the history of Israel there were times when it was impossible to fully carry out the Law as it was known because the Temple was destroyed and the people were in captivity (for example).

[i]However[/i] I think that the Sin Nature is more than just weakness or even 'inclination'. I think it is a knee jerk reaction that causes a person to rebel just for the sake of rebelling. When a kid takes his dads cigarettes and slips off behind the garage to smoke one- he is not being fulfilled by the flavor (much less the nausea, choking and hacking); they are fulfilled by the euphoria of doing something [u]wrong[/u]. I think Reidhead would call this the desire for 'forbidden experience'. The euphoria factor is proportional to the knowledge of right and wrong. The greater the wrong- the greater the euphoria.

With the unregenerate I see this is much more than what Eve experienced with the Tree of Knowledge. I am not really sure she desired it simply because it was wrong- but rather, because of the mystery of [i]why[/i] God made it off limits in the first place. When she yielded to the temptation and then gave to Adam- Sin entered humanity. This is known as Congenital Sin. We are born in Adam and we share Adam's history. We are born again into Jesus Christ and thereby [i]die[/i] to our Old Man (Adam) and are resurrected in Christ (The New Man and the Second Adam).

Man had fallen short of the Glory of the Image of God. Men still fall short of it. This is why we call it "progressive glorification". Why? We are not a perfect representation of Him [i]ultimately[/i]; but are as perfect as we can be at that moment if we are truly walking in the Spirit. We have a great desire to please the Lord. It is our 'meat'. Sin does not fulfill. It is like pouring water into the gas (petrol) tank. Engines do not run on water and Christians do not 'run' on sin(s). Christians 'run' on obedience.

One challenge that Christians deal with often that is very perplexing is the ability to balance law and grace. It is not always good to show mercy. Case in point; if you spoil the rod you will spoil the child. The heart is torn between showing mercy and offering another 'chance' and applying the rod of correction. This is true across the board for those that are in authority. How would a Christian rightly judge a criminal? Should he forgive 70x7 in a day? You know it is God's will (His 'known will') to forgive- but you also know you have to exercise judgment against folk at some point or the whole of the fabric of society with crumble.

Moreover, who among us can boast that they react rightly according to what they know to be the will of God in every circumstance? In a given day- they react as would Jesus Christ to every insult, misunderstanding, shortcoming of a brother or sister, rumor, temptation to sin, and so forth? Does anyone in these conversations ask for money back that someone borrows from them? Jesus said to give and expect nothing in return. Does any go the extra mile every time someone calls on them for help? Not do only what they ask- but go with them 'twain'? Say not within yourself that I forgot that command for there are many more like it.

Does anyone cast stones as if they had no sin? Is that not what the pharisees did? Does any feel in their heart the urge to call fire down from heaven when the people do not rightly respond to the Gospel? If so that's what the disciples did- and like wise you know not what manor of spirit you are of. Do you lower the sail when you see the battle is hot? Do you go full speed into the perfect will of God with no regard for the consequences?

Perhaps the greatest evidence that folk are not perfect is that they are not in prison every hour. If we was as perfect as we sometimes think we would see God moving in our midst in a most powerful way. The problem is sin. Not so much sin committed- but sin [u]un[/u]acknowledged. We keep acting like we have no sin.

Revival is not when everyone else gets [i]right[/i]. Revival is when men wrend their hearts before a holy God and cry out a Psalm 51 from the very depths of their soul. Revival is when [u]I[/u] get right. Not my neighbor. Not the person on the fourth row. Not the people that come to mind as I preach. Revival is when I cease to call God a liar and acknowledge my own transgressions. When I no longer call them 'mistakes' or side-slips. But when I call them by the most brutal name I can color. I'm not frugal I'm [u]greedy[/u]. I don't have [u]excessive self-esteem[/u]; I'm [u]proud[/u]. I don't have an [u]outgoing personality[/u]- I have [u]eyes full of adultery[/u]. What ever the sin- call it what it is. Turn your eyes upon Jesus and see yourself in the light of HIS glory and grace. And then may we all cry afresh with the hymn writer; [i]Rock Of Ages cleft for me- let me hide myself in Thee. Let the water and the blood from thy wounded side which flowed... be of sin MY double cure... save from wrath and make me pure.[/i]

C
ChrisJD

Hi RobertW. I have limited time right now so I can't read through all your post here.


"I think that the regenerate are returned close to the state that Adam and Eve were in before the fall."


It seems to me though that they did not have the divine nature. But that also, we, in some way, do:


"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

We have been given


[i]all things that pertain unto life and godliness[/i]


But it seems to me they did not have this.


Have to go for now.


Grace and peace.

C
Compton

Does anyone cast stones as if they had no sin?... Moreover, who among us can boast that they react rightly according to what they know to be the will of God in every circumstance?...Does any feel in their heart the urge to call fire down from heaven when the people do not rightly respond to the Gospel? If so that's what the disciples did- and like wise you know not what manor of spirit you are of...Revival is when men wrend their hearts before a holy God and cry out a Psalm 51 from the very depths of their soul.

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8

The ever increasing awareness of my connection to the corruption of this world prevents me from feeling comfortable speaking about 'personal perfection." Even if I manage to meet the arbitary standards of even the strictest holiness preacher, I find that my conscience, in and of my own merits, continues to be vexed. This is because even an honest man still benifits from the evil in this world. Untill creation is fully delivered from the bondage to decay I will remain connected to this deacy...that is without the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.

My own practice of holiness is a sign that my heart is repentant of my great offense to God. My sanctification is not realized when I am no longer committing an offense but when I realize that only in Christ Jesus can I be forgiven for even the injustice of existing in peace and security when others are starving, enslaved or being tourtured. I consume resources that others can't even afford. Many even in this forum have expressed similar groanings in different forms...some are horrified at the wars fought for the gasoline in their cars, while others are bothered by the cruel realities of how cheap goods find there way into Wal-Mart. Even locally I have developed a great resistance to caring enough about the suffering I know of...why should I live happily when others cannot? The list of charges against my very being could go on and on...The bottom line is that without Christ, even the most "upright" deacon in your local pilgrim holiness church remains connected in some way most miserably to the sin of this world.

A psycologist might tell me that I need cured of a guilt complex...but I feel that my ever present heavy conscience does not even scratch the surface as to how offensive my existance would be to God were it not for the blood of His son on my behalf.

Some might decide that I am saying there is no hope so why not just sin all the more? There is no room for that type of thinking, for my heart hates the corruption even as it remains connected to it while on earth. I thank God that he declares me righteous thorugh His son...and while I realize that my best efforts do not even begin to pay the cost for my corruption, I also realize that a heart wholey turned to God is the very essence of true sanctification.

Even while sanctified we wait for our ultimate redemption. Untill that glorious day, the idea that God would call me a son is scandalous incomprehensible love. It is an outrage that my human morality cannot tolerate. Truly I feel I should apologize to each of you for the injustice I have caused Jesus. Indeed, my own unworthiness is often the greatest barrier I feel when witnessing to others about Jesus. Afterall, who do I think I am? I am not ashamed of Jesus...I am ashamed of myself!

Yet my human righteousness must be put to death so that my broken heart, crushed by the daily realization of my own utter offenseness to God, can daily accept the utter grace of Christ.

MC

P
psalm1

Forevidsnce, you say that holiness is the emphasis of heaven. I assume you are referring to the 4 living creatures.
Holiness is not the emphasis in heaven. Holy is 1 atribute of God,as is love. God is holy ,but holy is not God.
the emphasis of heaven is Jesus or God or both.
Holiness for the ssints yes, radical over emphicised holiness no.I think some people see the "pinacle" of their walk as sinlesness.When actually the ultimate is when we meet Jesus face to face.
I wonder if this holiness , sinlesness doctrine is what fuels the legalism that dominates this forum.
There is another way to look at it.Sin is what barred man from heaven. Take away the sin factor and I become acceptible to God.[no need for a savior].
Or look at it still another way. you say you know sinless people.Remember Jesus revealed that in the thought life man sins.They[your friends] would have to think perfect thoughts.But beyond thst they could NEVER think a bad thought. Worry is a sin.Have they ever worried? Of course they have.
So you me and all your friends sin.

Thank you Jesus for your precious blood.
....David

P
psalm1

compton, wow what a word!Yes,yes,yes,this is the heart of God.He has you in that"special place!This samee thing comes over me too.
May it come over all of us.....David

C
ChrisJD

Hi again brother Robert.

I have a little bit of time to respond. I hope it will be alright to perhaps just take a line or two, and share some thoughts.


"However I think that the Sin Nature is more than just weakness or even 'inclination'. I think it is a knee jerk reaction that causes a person to rebel just for the sake of rebelling."


I could see that this is possible. But the point of view I'm looking at this from is not so much the [b]what[/b] but of the [b]why[/b]. That is, why do we have those reactions, not so much as what they are in qaulity and type.

Take for instance the knee jerk reaction you mentioned. I'm seeing this, not as a manifestation of a human nature that is inherently sinfull, but rather a human nature which responds sinfully to pressures, circumstances, ect.. [b]because it is not divine[/b].


I was meditating on this more yesturday after posting and was wondering if our being created in the image of God, made us, an image of God. But not the image of God.

I thought of this in this way: that just as an image of a bridge could not support the weight of all the cars that could cross that bridge, neither could an image of God, support the weight of a trial or testing that was divine.

But, the actuall image of God could.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."


Christ...

[i]...the express image of his person[/i]


Have to go for now...


Chris

R
running2win

Jeannette,
yes, I have to agree with you I got a little hasty with my response. Your response is also a rebuke to my haste as well. Your response was more christian than mine. Thank you sister. Since you explained it I can see what you are saying. No, no-one can overcome their sin in out of their own effort. I, like so many others had to learn that the hard way some time ago. To kind of explain myself, I read the original post and was very turned off by what I saw and so I more or less skimmed over the rest. What I saw in the original post to me looked like what I've seen people use over and over and over again as an excuse for loose living. This attitude of "perfection is impossible so why try to get complete victory in my life." Oh, this makes me groan inside because I've seen how holy God can make a man in the life of Keith Daniel and my heart says "that's exactly what I want!" Godliness justy pours out of the man to the point that I tremble when I'm in his presence. There's something indescribably holy about him, and that is what has inspired my christian life more than any other person I've ever known. To me, holiness means nothing other than Christ-likeness, and that's exactly what I want to be. Just like Jesus my precious Master. So when I see people make excuse for their lack of Christ-likeness I grieve. No, nobody will ever get to the place where they can't sin but they can certainly get to the place where they don't sin. Oh the sinfullness of sin! Just the word makes me shudder. Anyway, please forgive my hast and thoughtlessness sister. If anyone could make themselves holy on their own then Christ died for nothing. Oh that's a terrible thought! To think that Christ made a mistake because our righteousness was enough! That thought makes me tremble! I find in my own life that as I walk the christian faith I gradually take on a more and more clear view of myself and I shudder with abhorance at how wicked and deceitful my own heart is. Truly in me, in my flesh there is [b]NO[/b] good thing. Brothers and sisters let us press on toward perfection in Christ knowing that if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father and that Advocate is Jesus Christ the righteous.
God bless you all.


p.s. sorry I didn't clear this up sooner. I don't have internet access on the weekend, only at work during the week. That's probably a good thing. That way everyone gets a two day rest from my mindless haste. :-(

S
sermonindex


running2win wrote:
Jeannette,
yes, I have to agree with you I got a little hasty with my response. Your response is also a rebuke to my haste as well. Your response was more christian than mine. Thank you sister. Since you explained it I can see what you are saying. No, no-one can overcome their sin in out of their own effort. I, like so many others had to learn that the hard way some time ago. To kind of explain myself, I read the original post and was very turned off by what I saw and so I more or less skimmed over the rest. What I saw in the original post to me looked like what I've seen people use over and over and over again as an excuse for loose living. This attitude of "perfection is impossible so why try to get complete victory in my life." Oh, this makes me groan inside because I've seen how holy God can make a man in the life of Keith Daniel and my heart says "that's exactly what I want!" Godliness justy pours out of the man to the point that I tremble when I'm in his presence. There's something indescribably holy about him, and that is what has inspired my christian life more than any other person I've ever known. To me, holiness means nothing other than Christ-likeness, and that's exactly what I want to be. Just like Jesus my precious Master. So when I see people make excuse for their lack of Christ-likeness I grieve. No, nobody will ever get to the place where they can't sin but they can certainly get to the place where they don't sin. Oh the sinfullness of sin! Just the word makes me shudder. Anyway, please forgive my hast and thoughtlessness sister. If anyone could make themselves holy on their own then Christ died for nothing. Oh that's a terrible thought! To think that Christ made a mistake because our righteousness was enough! That thought makes me tremble! I find in my own life that as I walk the christian faith I gradually take on a more and more clear view of myself and I shudder with abhorance at how wicked and deceitful my own heart is. Truly in me, in my flesh there is [b]NO[/b] good thing. Brothers and sisters let us press on toward perfection in Christ knowing that if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father and that Advocate is Jesus Christ the righteous.
Hi Brother Jeff.

I've already pm'd you about this, but just to make it clear to everyone that I'm not offended, and understand your reaction. Please don' feel bad about it. As I said in the pm, I admire your zeal, even if it was mistaken in this case.

It was easy to understand your reaction, and I was amused rather than offended, hence the teasing reply! then wondered if I'd been a bit patronising with you!

But we won't quarrel about who was most at fault - it's sorted now!

Don't ever apologise for being zealous for Truth.

Although that's easy to say when we find we agree after all!
;-)

Blessings

Jeannette

S
sermonindex


Lazarus1719 wrote:
If we just focus on loving CHRIST, then keeping ALL of His commandments will come naturally.

"If you love ME" Christ said, "keep my commandments."

The Apostle John confirmed this, by saying that the test to know weather or not someone loves God or not, or if someone is from God or the devil, is if KEEP God's commandments.

AMEN!

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