How good is health care in your nation?

Film maker Michael Moore is coming out with a new film called "Sicko." I listen to a interview of him where he compares the quality of health care of the U.S. with other nations such as Canada and Cuba.

He stated that Cuba, being one of the poorest nations has a better standard of care than the U.S. Infant mortality is lower in Cuba than the U.S. The number of doctor per capita is greater...

He stated that the U.S. ranks 37 overall in quality of health care.

Any coments?

In Christ
jeff

hey bro Jeff

Greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Reconciled to God. AMEN.

Well Zimbabwe is in a shambles in general and healthcare is no exception. There is quite a large number of cases of infectious diseases, HIV is rampant and killing thousands a week. There are shortages of things such as gloves, bandages of different kinds and even some basic medications which has caused problems. Doctors are not keen to see patients if they can't wear gloves etc. Strikes of healthcare workers occur often due to poor compensation and lack of tools to work with. Zimbabwe is last in the list of named countries and last in the majority of categories not only in Africa but even in the world. The first shall be last and the last first...

i work in healthcare here and it seems we are quick to medicate for whatever reason. Most things could be taken care of if we were better stewards of the bodies we have been given. We are very stressed out, we make more money but have much more debt, we work longer hours but are not necessarily as productive as other nations who work less hours like Australia. Granted they don't make as much but they don't have the problems with health as we do.

i don't know about you but we have health insurance and somehow i feel we're getting robbed...we pay premiums for services which we don't often need and then fork out copays for each service...when i was in Zimbabwe, we had insurance but because medicine is more socialized, it wasn't so costly to get healthcare. Now with the economy the way it is, people are being forced to come out of pocked with huge sums of money to just be seen with no guarantee of getting good care because tools are short.

Then here we have lawsuit after lawsuit which drives up healthcare costs, the veterans get screwed, i guess it is a mess. Perhaps the mess is more a function of how broke we are...a lady was on fox the other day saying that if we aren't careful illegal immigration will bankrupt us...where has she been...we've been bankrupt since after Reagan and this sham economy is about to crash to prove the point. Except we get into the Fold, we're done.

God help us.AMEN.

rookie, i most surely do not want a political discussion here, but please don't tell me you consider Michael Moore a credible source of information. Every film he has done is filled with lies and misinformation. We are not talking about matters of opinion, but cold hard facts. The people he interviews for his movies and books are constantly coming out and saying that he misquoted them or simply made stuff up (like the Korean stem cell researcher who published all these great advancements...he just made the whole thing up!). Which makes you wonder...why do people keep doing them? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. ;-)

Anyhow, I don't know where he got his numbers from, but you can bet there is a political agenda attached to them. I don't know if he is pushing for universal government-sponsored health care or not, but that is a surefire way to wreck not only the economy but the very thing you are trying to fix. I can assure you the standard of care in the US is far superior to that in Canada and Cuba, and probably just about anywhere else in the world, especially in Socialist Europe.

Also keep in mind that many "health statistics" are very poorly maintained in third world countries. Many don't include infants until several weeks post-birth because the vast majority die in the first few weeks anyway. The number one cause of death worldwide according to statistics is malaria. That's a health care issue. The true number one cause of death? Infantile diarrhea. That is a nourishment issue. No country can fix that. It is only by prayer and the giving of the church of Jesus Christ.

Grace and Peace

Film maker Michael Moore is coming out with a new film called "Sicko."...

He stated that Cuba, being one of the poorest nations has a better standard of care than the U.S.

Any coments?

Extreme wing politics aside, this is an example of how indifferent to facts our partisan agenda driven society is becoming. The real problem here isn't 'who's number one', but how such self-serving ignorance only hurts the people actually living in socialist systems like Cuba's.

During the financial depression of 1930's the intelligensia of this country visited the USSR and came back with rapturous reports of utopia. Now it seems we are doing it again. Only this time there aren't really hard times yet. Pundits like Michael Moore make sensational entertainment out of complaining because it beats having to work for a living. Now that's the good life if you ask me. So I somehow doubt Michael Moore will be going to Cuba for his health care. ;-)

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/galleries/cubahealth/pages/page1.html]Washington Post on Cuban Health Care[/url]

Any coments?

I give thanks to God for the wisdom He has given men in the understanding of the human body.

I thank God that my wife could safely give birth to our children through the help of modern medicine.

I thank God that my kids have grown up in a place where the illnesses that took many lives just a century ago are now treated quickly and effectively by modern medicine.

I thank God that my brother in Christ who was dying from liver illness was able to have a liver transplant and also that God in His grace has made the body of the liver donor to grow part of a new liver to replace that which he gave up.

Are there mistakes and excesses in the medical system, absolutely. Am I blessed by the grace of God toward us through this system, absolutely!

In Christ,

Ron

Michael Moore is a filmmaker, not a journalist.

Our health care system sucks and I probably will never have it, but the answer IMO is not socialized health care. Moreover, the kind of "health care" we need is a greater awareness of health and nutrition, etc.

BRO BeyeDoers
greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Justified.

i don't know that socialized healthcare will wreck the economy. i would say that it is late to the party, the economy has long been a sham, albeit a well-propagandized one to lead us to think all is well.

i think though whatever problems we have with healthcare are a symptom of something far much deeper which we're averse to acknowledging in a way which would rectify the situation...we're in need of repentance...We are in desperate need of turning away from our excesses and back to our Lord whom we have forsaken. Brethren all the issues we face from corruption in government, business, healthcare issues, a bankrupt economy, divorce, you name it stem from one thing, we don't consider God as we should, if we did, things would be very different. There is but one solution, repent, there are 2 options, repent or die. If we do not get to the root of the issue and try and tend to the symptoms, we will be chasing out tails and putting out fire after fire till we wear out. Mike Moore is probably off on some stuff, he is probably on point with other stuff as it is with the government. There are problems with credibility on both sides, men lie because we don't stop and consider that God wants us to always be truthful.In the Nordic countries it seems their healthcare is better than ours. i have lived in ZImbabwe most of my life and the stress levels there are much less than here so it was better there than here. America is a nice place to live but it sure is brutal in terms of the grind day to day...

at the end of the day, the bottom line for us is this and it remains this

REPENT, REPENT, REPENT, OR DIE!!!

we could talk till our Lord comes but if we don't do the above and get right, we're finished.

Grace and Peace be yours in Jesus' Name.

bro Mike C

During the financial depression of 1930's the intelligensia of this country visited the USSR and came back with rapturous reports of utopia. Now it seems we are doing it again. Only this time there aren't really hard times yet. Pundits like Michael Moore make sensational entertainment out of complaining because it beats having to work for a living. Now that's the good life if you ask me.

there is a song in my head now...let's all sing along to the hook...

"Only in America!!! Where we dream in red, white and blue!"

:-P

Grace and Peace in Jesus' Name

Sorry for mentioning Michael Moore, but the interview got me thinking...

In my own case, I have begun working in a hospital. The health insurance that my family has seems to be overwhelmed with paper work and chaos.

Just an example, my wife has been waiting for 3 months to get a to see a doctor for her first visit. We recently moved from Los Angeles so we are still getting settled into this new system.

I also know that there is a shortage of doctors in this country, especially family practitioners.

In Christ
Jeff

Just another observation...

It seems we who live in the U.S. and have responded with passion to this thread. We are quick to defend what we know, but how do we compare with the other industrial nations who all have a different health care system than the U.S.?

Is pride blinding us to not consider reality?

In Christ
Jeff

Another observation...

In my experience, my family rarily is seen by an actual doctor.

Is this your experience?

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff,

Certainly there is a measure of pride here. There is also a measure of gratitude. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference in each individual.

I certainly can imagine that there are health related benifits in other nations that are superior to the US. We should consider more then just hospital and drug costs, but also other contributing health factors.

For instance Americans in general eat irresponsibly. Studies have shown that our portions are on average 150%-200% larger when compared to the portions of the 1980's. Simply put, we want our hamburgers, patries, coffees, ect bigger and bigger. Our poor hearts.

Yet, looking to Cuba for solutions is an assualt on reason.;-) Cuba is a sole propriety business with Fidel as the chief gravy taker...for the life of me I can't understand why liberals tend to admire communist systems. They certainly wouldn't admire an American President who ran his country in such a fashion. (On second thought...maybe they would...gulp. :-o )

For the record I personally am sympathetic to a measure of public health care provision. There simply are times when the cash flow just ain't there for families. This doesn't mean that I am for the government assuming responsibility, and authority for my family like they have done with public education. I think there are more creative solutions that are readily available. In short I believe government regulated private enterprise can provide a more effiecient solution then simply expanding welfare.

But as Jordan hinted below...let's be honest here. A critic of our current health care system would have more credibility in my eyes if he actually appeared to be responsible for his own health. Only in America can you eat as indulgently as Michael Moore has and complain about the health care system. I would rather listen to Richard Simmons. Moore's 'compassion' is an insult to people who actually try to take care of themselves despite living in nations where health care actually is poor. Seriously, if you are stuffing your arteries full of transfat and sugars, please don't complain about the rising cost of bypass surgery and insulin.

Yet, I know bad things happen to responsibly healthy people very day. Having said all that, I am sincerely interested if people outside the USA have some helpful insight from their own nations how we could be doing better. I am particularly interested in what I as a father taking care of a wife and children can do. Maybe others both here or abroad have discovered some tips and some strategies that are quite simple.

MC

Instead of prclaiming all our pride and such,
maybe we should swallow some and look at the facts.
From Wikipedia which probably is not accepted by Fox News. Here are the facts.

List of countries by infant mortality rate
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The infant mortality rate (IMR) is the reported number of infants dying under a year of age, per one thousand live births.

Rank Country or region Infant mortality rate
(deaths/1,000 live births)
  1 Angola 184.44
  2 Sierra Leone 158.27
  3 Afghanistan 157.43
  4 Liberia 149.73
  5 Niger 116.83
  6 Somalia 113.08
  7 Mozambique 109.93
  8 Mali 105.65
  9 Guinea-Bissau 103.50
 10 Chad 102.07
 11 Djibouti 100.77
 12 Zambia 100.71
 13 Bhutan  96.37
 14 Nigeria  95.52
 15 Malawi  92.10
 16 Ethiopia  91.92
 17 Sudan  91.78
 18 Burkina Faso  89.79
 19 Guinea  88.58
 20 Cote d'Ivoire  87.41
 21 Equatorial Guinea  87.15
 22 Rwanda  85.27
 23 Central African Republic  83.97
 24 Congo, Republic of the  83.26
 25 Laos  81.44
 26 Lesotho  79.85
 27 Benin  77.85
 28 Tanzania  71.69
 29 Comoros  70.66
 30 Swaziland  70.66
 31 Gambia, The  70.14
 32 Uzbekistan  68.89
 33 Pakistan  68.84
 34 Mauritania  68.07
 35 Uganda  67.22
 36 Cameroon  65.84
 37 Congo, Democratic Republic of the  65.52
 38 Haiti  63.83
 39 Nepal  63.66
 40 Burundi  61.93
 41 Senegal  60.15
 42 Mayotte  59.51
 43 South Africa  59.44
 44 Bangladesh  59.12
 45 Togo  59.12
 46 Cambodia  58.45
 47 Azerbaijan  58.31
 48 Yemen  57.88
 49 Kenya  57.44
 50 Madagascar  57.02
 51 Gabon  53.65
 52 Ghana  53.56
 53 Turkmenistan  53.49
 54 Maldives  53.25
 55 Vanuatu  52.45
 56 Zimbabwe  51.12
 57 Burma  50.68
 58 Bolivia  50.43
 59 Papua New Guinea  48.46
 60 Namibia  47.23
 61 Iraq  47.04
 62 Kiribati  46.02
 63 Cape Verde  45.27
 64 Eritrea  45.24
 65 East Timor  44.46
 66 Botswana  43.97
 67 Tajikistan  43.64
 68 World  43.52
 69 Mongolia  42.65
 70 Sao Tome and Principe  40.54
 71 Morocco  38.85
 72 Turkey  38.33
 73 Iran  38.12
 74 India  34.61
 75 Kyrgyzstan  33.38
 76 Indonesia  32.14
 77 Guyana  31.35
 78 Peru  29.96
 79 Guatemala  29.77
 80 Egypt  29.50
 81 Algeria  28.78
 82 Micronesia, Federated States of  28.15
 83 Dominican Republic  27.94
 84 Syria  27.70
 85 Brazil  27.62
 86 Kazakhstan  27.41
 87 Marshall Islands  27.30
 88 Nicaragua  27.14
 89 Paraguay  26.45
 90 Samoa  25.89
 91 Honduras  25.21
 92 Romania  24.60
 93 Belize  24.38
 94 Vietnam  24.37
 95 Trinidad and Tobago  24.33
 96 Bahamas, The  24.17
 97 Lebanon  23.39
 98 Tunisia  22.94
 99 El Salvador  22.88
100 Libya  22.82
101 Korea, North  22.56
102 Venezuela  22.52
103 China  22.12
104 Philippines  22.12
105 Ecuador  22.10
106 Gaza Strip  21.88
107 Armenia  21.69
108 Colombia  20.13
109 Suriname  20.11
110 Albania  20.02
111 Solomon Islands  19.97
112 Mexico  19.63
113 Anguilla  19.61
114 Sri Lanka  19.45
115 Bulgaria  19.16
116 Tuvalu  18.90
117 Thailand  18.85
118 West Bank  18.67
119 Oman  18.28
120 Antigua and Barbuda  18.26
121 Saint Helena  17.67
122 Qatar  17.46
123 Georgia  17.36
124 Malaysia  16.62
125 Bahrain  16.18
126 Jordan  16.16
127 British Virgin Islands  16.13
128 Panama  15.96
129 Jamaica  15.73
130 Greenland  14.98
131 Aruba  14.75
132 Seychelles  14.75
133 Turks and Caicos Islands  14.70
134 Dominica  14.61
135 Argentina  14.29
136 Mauritius  14.14
137 Palau  14.07
138 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines  14.01
139 Grenada  13.92
140 Moldova  13.88
141 Saint Kitts and Nevis  13.74
142 United Arab Emirates  13.52
143 Brunei  13.12
144 Saint Lucia  12.81
145 Saudi Arabia  12.41
146 Uruguay  12.02
147 Fiji  11.99
148 Tonga  11.99
149 Barbados  11.55
150 Russia  11.06
151 Netherlands Antilles   9.63
152 Nauru   9.60
153 Bosnia and Herzegovina   9.58
154 Macedonia   9.53
155 Ukraine   9.50
156 Kuwait   9.47
157 Costa Rica   9.45
158 Latvia   9.16
159 American Samoa   8.88
160 Chile   8.36
161 Hungary   8.21
162 Bermuda   8.08
163 French Polynesia   7.84
164 Puerto Rico   7.81
165 Cayman Islands   7.80
166 Virgin Islands   7.69
167 Estonia   7.59
168 New Caledonia   7.42
169 Saint Pierre and Miquelon   7.21
170 Slovakia   7.12
171 Poland   7.07
172 Montserrat   7.03
173 Cyprus   6.89
174 Northern Mariana Islands   6.85
175 Israel   6.75
176 Guam   6.68
177 Lithuania   6.68
178 Belarus   6.63
179 Croatia   6.60
180 United States   6.37
181 Korea, South   6.05
182 Cuba   6.04
183 Faroe Islands   6.01
184 Isle of Man   5.72
185 Italy   5.72
186 New Zealand   5.67
187 Taiwan   5.54
188 San Marino   5.53
189 Greece   5.34
190 Monaco   5.27
191 Ireland   5.22
192 Jersey   5.08
193 United Kingdom   5.01
194 Gibraltar   4.98
195 Portugal   4.92
196 Netherlands   4.88
197 European Union   4.80
198 Luxembourg   4.68
199 Canada   4.63
200 Guernsey   4.59
201 Liechtenstein   4.58
202 Australia   4.57
203 Belgium   4.56
204 Austria   4.54
205 Denmark   4.45
206 Slovenia   4.35
207 Macau   4.33
208 Spain   4.31
209 Switzerland   4.28
210 Germany   4.08
211 Andorra   4.03
212 Czech Republic   3.86
213 Malta   3.82
214 Norway   3.64
215 Finland   3.52
216 France   3.41
217 Iceland   3.27
218 Hong Kong   2.94
219 Japan   2.80
220 Sweden   2.76
221 Singapore   2.30
America comes in at 41 not 37 and Cuba does have
a slightly lower rate. Now was'nt that easy. ;-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

I sorry I have disagree with 85% of the health care out there. Now hear I am every thanful for what we have. But the truth is that is alot of things that are wrong. But on that same note I think there are very good things. I think there are so very good people out there. But again our health and health care system is not the ful promble I think we need to look deeper. Lets go back in time when there was little farms, then big company came in. What happen to the food?
then what happened to our health. We bigger and deeper prombles in America that is killing us, and 95% don't even know it. We talk about obey God, is not our health part of it?

But on the part of health care. It very hard for me because I am sick, they deny me. What Iam left with, but the state help. But again I am very thankful. I live in poor area, people struggling, having family children. Not knowing what to do. I understand, you how many people are without medical?

in his love
charlene

bro M.C.
Greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Justified before God. AMEN.

But as Jordan hinted below...let's be honest here. A critic of our current health care system would have more credibility in my eyes if he actually appeared to be responsible for his own health. Only in America can you eat as indulgently as Michael Moore has and complain about the health care system. I would rather listen to Richard Simmons. Moore's 'compassion' is an insult to people who actually try to take care of themselves despite living in nations where health care actually is poor. Seriously, if you are stuffing your arteries full of transfat and sugars, don't complain about the rising cost of bypass surgery and insulin.

indeed this is ironic, i had to laugh to myself at this situation...indeed only in America can one so do.that song comes to mind again... perhaps the fact that such indulgences can go on is an indictment against our lifestyles. There is a Psalm in which one of the verses says something to the effect of the wicked rejoice when vile things are celebrated... :-?

For the record I personally am sympathetic to a measure of public health care provision. There simply are times when the cash flow just ain't there for families. This doesn't mean that I am for the government assuming responsibility, and authority for my family like they have done with public education. I think there are more creative solutions that are readily available. In short I believe government regulated private enterprise can provide a more effiecient solution then simply expanding welfare.

you know, there is something which came to mind when i read this. Sure there is a lot of bashing of socialized medicine and so on but the countries which have this sort of set up are a lot smaller than the U.S. in terms of population and square area. Perhaps that system works over there partly because of this and a similar system would be far too unweildy here because we are a population of close to 400 million spread out over a pretty sizeable area. something to consider?

i guess communism works when populations are rather small...of course there is always the looming spectre of atheism and dictatorship...with democracy it is the same, unwieldy with large numbers of people. The best form of government is The Theocracy of Christ which we must have in our own lives as Christians.

Yet, I know bad things happen to responsibly healthy people very day. Having said all that, I am sincerely interested in people outside the USA have some helpful insight from their own nations how we could be doing better. I am particularly interested in what I as a father taking care of a wife and children can do. Maybe others both here or abroad have discovered some tips and some strategies that are quite simple.

having lived in Zimbabwe many years and lived here for 10, i see a marked difference in that people back home tend to relax more, take more time off work but this place is a rat race. Time flies by and years go by and you haven't seen or heard from people you grew up with even if you live in the same city and the reason is always the same, "been working hard" i guess i would say is to acknowledge our Lord in all your ways and He will direct your path. that way we wouldn't just be doing better, we would be at our Best by His Grace.

Grace and Peace be yours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

The best form of government is The Theocracy of Christ which we must have in our own lives as Christians.

I'm voting for Ironman. I like his policies.

You know whenever I start to talk about 'society' and 'systems' it is easy for me to become philosophic and a bit political. The fact of the matter is I don't know who has the lowest infant mortatily rate or the highest cancer rate. It's not something I'm really able to thump my chest over.

The pitfall I tend to see with well intentioned discussion about 'society' and 'systems' is that pretty soon everything degenerates into a volley of statistics and op ed pieces. Meanwhile, as an individual faced with the reality of actually solving this problem for my family I am not helped at all.

For me the issue here is our individual character...and ultimately our national character. When American's start bragging about thier standard of living I am left with a nervous forboding feeling inside...a not too small fearful anticipation of God's dissaproval of our fatness. We are told in no uncertain terms that pride goes before a fall.

Yet conversely when Americans start complaining about what they have I equally feel unsettled. What is it going to take to make mankind thankful? While so many people starve, living only inches from mosquito and desease infested rivers of open sewage and refuge, many in this country sit around (on rather large seats I might wager) pointing out yet another problem with their 'system.'

Personally I think I am in that wasteland of American healthcare; the small self employed busines owner. I do not qualify for state assistance, and so my wife and I must do what we can to cover our expenses. She works just to cover this responsibility.

Healthcare takes a sizable portion of our variable income, but praise God for his provision! We realize that next year we may face different circumstances but we are thankful for this day's provision. We do not meditate on how the system is broken or envy the Cubans. Accusing someone in government of failing us, or that 'Big Pharma' is sticking it us, is not going to help our family. Blaming other people is hardly the character of a Godly man or woman.

Shame on us I say. I know of modern immigrants who come to America and live meagerly, with several families sharing housing, while they builld their carreers and fortunes. Meanwhile we native citizens feel entitled to some sort of ever rising standard of living. We drive twenty to thirty thousand dollar cars and complain about $3.00 gas. We live in two story houses and complain about the cost of living. We waltz into the grocery store and complain about the cost of oranges and milk. We just can't imagine that someone doesn't owe us a better deal then the one we have.

Forgive my small rant here. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular of course. I've certainly been guilty of the things I mentioned above. I truly thank God He is merciful and patient with his children.

MC

Brother Mike wrote:

Personally I think I am in that wasteland of American healthcare; the small self employed busines owner. I do not qualify for state assistance, and so my wife and I must do what we can to cover our expenses. She works just to cover this responsibility.

Brother, this comment that I write is not meant as a means to cast any judgement on you or your family decisions.
Many families have had to make the same choices. Back in California, we have some good friends who have to have the mother work as a teacher in the public schools for the same reason. The husband is self employed.

Everyone in their family hates the fact that she has to work so that the family can take advantage of the health benefits. The children complain that mom in never home. She often goes to school on Sunday after church to prepare her class for the next weeks events.

Ironman's observation on our 'style of life" is revealing something more basic than just health care benefits or lack there of. I listen to many families speak of the hectic pace of life that we Americans have come to accept. I constantly hear people complain that they have no time. Everyone is working. Everyone is striving to acquire the "American dream."

My question is, Who is responsible for creating this "American dream" which costs so much?

And why do we Americans work so hard to pursue this "dream?"

In Christ
Jeff

This stat was taken from the Census Burea info...

While the median household income has increased 44% since 1990 it has decreased very slightly when considering inflation. In 1990, the median household income was determined to be $30,056; $44,603 in 2003 dollars. While personal income has remained relatively stagnant over the past few decades, household income has risen due to the rising percentage of households with two or more income earners. Between 1999 and 2004 household income stagnated showing a slight increase since 2004.[10][11]

What this is saying is that income has gone down since 1990. But this fact is covered over by the event that more families have decided that both parents need to work.

In terms of health care, I wonder how many of us who earn less than the median income would say that they have good health care?

In Christ
Jeff

My question is, Who is responsible for creating this "American dream" which costs so much?

is America with this an dream ? I think in humans we are working so hard for the Good life
or what we think that is. People work so hard because in some cases they are thinking about themselves. We use our money in the most foolish ways. We are responsible for this. We buy, we sell. We go and but new cars, when we don't have the money. We are living over what we have.

Just a thought I was looking at ads today. it was a Christian workers. They all kinds of jobs. I know this a little out there. But if we are a body are we not to be taking care of each other, what has the bosy became but about self?
We all have these different gifts we willing to share? Being a DR or Nurse, or painter. It carzy to think we work as a family. I knew a DR in a Church who help missionary for free. Now I did hear about this Health care for Chirstain. As long you are not sick before you can get it, I don't remeber the name.

In his love
charlene

To the brothers and sisters who live in these countries...

181 Korea, South ??6.05
182 Cuba ??6.04
183 Faroe Islands ??6.01
184 Isle of Man ??5.72
185 Italy ??5.72
186 New Zealand ??5.67
187 Taiwan ??5.54
188 San Marino ??5.53
189 Greece ??5.34
190 Monaco ??5.27
191 Ireland ??5.22
192 Jersey ??5.08
193 United Kingdom ??5.01
194 Gibraltar ??4.98
195 Portugal ??4.92
196 Netherlands ??4.88
197 European Union ??4.80
198 Luxembourg ??4.68
199 Canada ??4.63
200 Guernsey ??4.59
201 Liechtenstein ??4.58
202 Australia ??4.57
203 Belgium ??4.56
204 Austria ??4.54
205 Denmark ??4.45
206 Slovenia ??4.35
207 Macau ??4.33
208 Spain ??4.31
209 Switzerland ??4.28
210 Germany ??4.08
211 Andorra ??4.03
212 Czech Republic ??3.86
213 Malta ??3.82
214 Norway ??3.64
215 Finland ??3.52
216 France ??3.41
217 Iceland ??3.27
218 Hong Kong ??2.94
219 Japan ??2.80
220 Sweden ??2.76
221 Singapore ??2.30

Are you able to have access to health care?

In Christ
Jeff

Sis wrote:

We all have these different gifts we willing to share? Being a DR or Nurse, or painter. It carzy to think we work as a family. I knew a DR in a Church who help missionary for free.

I live in an area of the country where the Amish and Mennonite church family do take care of one another in this way. Yet they are still at the mercy of the "non profit" hospital system we have here in central Pennsylvania.

In Christ
Jeff

Greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Reconciled to the Father. AMEN.

bro M.C.

I'm voting for Ironman. I like his policies.

there is another tune playing in my head now! :-P You know bro, i was seeking God a bit more on that very thing and He was Gracious enough to minister a bit more to me about it. i was able to share that among us because it is something which God has made plain to me is necessary, Christ as Lord of all, indeed i believe it is plain to us all. i confess i didn't say it as one who has apprehended the gravity of it as yet but as one floundering to lay hold of this thing and have it working in my life as it should that He may be Glorified. AMEN. it is my hope that this can be used of God to build up the Body in some way that He may receive the Glory and Honour due Him.

i'm finding there is an ecstacy (for the inner man) which comes from yielding something wholly to Him and there is a corresponding agony which comes when it is plain some things are yet to be yielded to His Lordship. We need both, the ecstacy to let us know we are on track and the agony to keep us pressing on lest the ecstacy becomes something plain and we fail to esteem it and just sit on our hands.

i am by His Grace yet pressing on to lay hold of this thing, that Christ be Lord of all in my life.

The pitfall I tend to see with well intentioned discussion about 'society' and 'systems' is that pretty soon everything degenerates into a volley of statistics and op ed pieces. Meanwhile, as an individual faced with the reality of actually solving this problem for my family I am not helped at all.

this is true, there is a place for facts but it seems that the fact the discussions go off into op-eds and such reflects on how we have not yielded all to Christ. Even in things such as this, issues regarding work, friends or other matters which are called secular, we ought to seek God in those things all the more. For us as Christians, there ought to be no aspect of our lives which is secular but rather in all things, we are to govern ourselves as God would have us. When Christ said to render to caesar what is his and to God what is God, He in effect was telling us (as God) how we ought to govern ourselves as it pertains to the governments He has set up. Some have taken that to mean a separation but it isn't, it's God governing our conduct. i suppose we grow up being taught to be independant and that spills over into our lives as far as God is concerned and we exercise as independance of Him which is dangerous in many day to day things. perhaps some things to think about? As Americans we do pride ourselves in being independant and that affects our individual lives which then determines the general spirit of our nation and its character. let us press into God more that He may have His Theorcracy in our lives. AMEN.

Yet conversely when Americans start complaining about what they have I equally feel unsettled. What is it going to take to make mankind thankful? While so many people starve, living only inches from mosquito and desease infested rivers of open sewage and refuge, many in this country sit around (on rather large seats I might wager) pointing out yet another problem with their 'system.'

in this regard we are like Israel, contended (well to some degree) on large couches and panelled homes without much sense of gratitude for what God has given us nor thanksgiving. We complain when we don't have what we perceive to be the best and not often stop to consider that God is at work...i think if you would ask some around the world they would say we are like spoiled brats.

Personally I think I am in that wasteland of American healthcare; the small self employed busines owner. I do not qualify for state assistance, and so my wife and I must do what we can to cover our expenses. She works just to cover this responsibility.

i work also to allow for healthcare benefits to the tune of almost $1000 a month (ouch!) but like you i bless God for that provision, a goodly portion of it is covered by my state which employs me. this is better than the many who come to the E.R. who are indigents and have no health insurance. It is good to be greatful! are we not to enter His gates with thanksgiving and praise after all!? at this point i feel as though i am by His Grace stepping into a sense of being bulletproof in Christ. as Christians, we [i][b]can't [/b][/i] lose. All things work together for our good...costly healthcare or not come hell, high water or both. i hope we can take hold of Romans 8:28 by His Grace. AMEN.

Shame on us I say. I know of modern immigrants who come to America and live meagerly, with several families sharing housing, while they builld their carreers and fortunes. Meanwhile we native citizens feel entitled to some sort of ever rising standard of living. We drive twenty to thirty thousand dollar cars and complain about $3.00 gas. We live in two story houses and complain about the cost of living. We waltz into the grocery store and complain about the cost of oranges and milk. We just can't imagine that someone doesn't owe us a better deal then the one we have.

indeed there is something to be said about being modest...there was a guy i met, a physician who is a BMW fan like myself and has a collection of perhaps 3-4 (not sure) BMW coupes. well the last one he bought was a 645ci which runs about $80k base. i asked him if he liked the M6 which is about $95k or so and he said he looked at it but didn't buy it because it got 12mpg at 100mph. in my head i was thinking "who buys a $100k car and even gives a rip about gas prices? i know i wouldn't" it costs me about $50 to fill my car up now but i don't get mad, God made provision for me to put gas in there every time i needed to. for the life of me i could never understand why people complain about gas when we fork out so much for our whips... :-? i think the fact that we feel we deserve an increased standard of living will make the coming judgment that much more harsh :-(

Forgive my small rant here. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular of course. I've certainly been guilty of the things I mentioned above. I truly thank God He is merciful and patient with his children.

as have i bro, it is truly His Mercy that He allows us to see this and give us Grace to correct it. it is good that we not separate ourselves from our brethren but that we identify with one another to as to pray for one another, exhort and admonish one another in Love so we come to the fullness of what we ought to be as Christians. As surely as Daniel and Ezekiel suffered in exile with their people in judgment and identified with the sin of the nation, so must we. We must confess our sins as Daniel did for Israel even though he was a righteous man and was not guilty of committing those things but he was guilty because these were his brethren and they were suffering together.

Grace and Peace be yours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Brother, this comment that I write is not meant as a means to cast any judgement on you or your family decisions.

Actually I opted into this thread (and other threads) willing to learn and to expose myself to some measure of judgement. I'm carefully aware of my ongoing capacity for wrong choices. As I mentioned initially I am interested in learning about new ideas are out there regarding individual strategies for health care. I have done what I believe is right, recognizing that my solution leaves other aspects of life still unanswered.

Sometimes we make choices that other people can easily see are mistakes. Learning involves regret. Regret is one of the pitfalls of being a Christian. Man is born with a desire to be self sufficient, but the child of God is quicker to admit inadequacy. So we must be willing to endure periodic regrets as the mind is renewed and the heart regenerated. Maturity embraces this sorrow because it embraces wisdom.

So that is my policy towards judgement. Transparency let's the light in and there is no need to fear correction or to apologize for it. In fact, I need all the wisdom I can get.

My question is, Who is responsible for creating this "American dream" which costs so much?

Are Americans the only people who have to work hard?

I hope we aren't missing each other's point on this one. I certainly understand that America is only another cog in the world system and has no special claim on virtue or standard of living. This country is like any other man made thing...it could fade and wither like grass.

Well, as always I appreciate your thoughts and questions Jeff. They are always challenging and most of all, Christ centered.

Blessings,

MC

bro Jeff
Greetings in Jesus' Name by whose BLood we are Justified before God. AMEN.

Ironman's observation on our 'style of life" is revealing something more basic than just health care benefits or lack there of. I listen to many families speak of the hectic pace of life that we Americans have come to accept. I constantly hear people complain that they have no time. Everyone is working. Everyone is striving to acquire the "American dream."

i had been thinking a bit about what had been made plain to us about our hectic lifestyles and our Lord showed me a couple of things. We have made the American dream into an idol and as such we focus a lot of energy on realizing that. i am not saying we should all quit our jobs but merely we ought to reflect on what we do with what we make. i suppose many of us are in debt because of things we wanted and got which weren't in hindsight altogether crucial. it seems we have become quite enamored with the American dream which itself is a product of the enemy designed to distract us from God. it's a very glitsy thing, more appealing than a simpler life which God would have us lead. The genius of this system is that it squeezes God out of everything, school, work, political office and forces a reliance on the reasonings of man leaving us more than fair game for the enemy to knock us off. It is the nature of the world system, brutal, efficient, without God to make us slaves to satan.

i say this as one who has yet many idols to put to death. i bless God for His opening of our eyes to this wickedness which is so subtle (indeed this is the worst kind of wickedness) and enticing and is more the enemy's speed because it is benign enough.

we have become accustomed to working so hard because the American dream is more appealing to us than God is; we have lost our awe of Him and we desperately need to regain that so we can see rightly.

God help us!AMEN.

The genius of this system is that it squeezes God out of everything, school, work, political office and forces a reliance on the reasonings of man leaving us more than fair game for the enemy to knock us off. It is the nature of the world system, brutal, efficient, without God to make us slaves to satan.

It is a persistant myth in the church today that people can't have a sense of meaning and purpose in life without the Lord. On the contrary, this world offers a wide assortment of meanings and reasons for living. This certainly is part of the problem with the modern gospel: "Jesus has come to fill your emptiness and give you a sense of fulfillment." The sad truth is most people can find plenty of purpose chasing the illusions that Ironman and Rookie describe.

In our commercial age, we need to accept that many people really are not searching for some great meaning...they are able to aquire all the security and fulfillment they think they need quite nicely. Remarkably William Wilberforce discussed this modern condition emerging in his day some 200 years ago...he linked it to the fact that European commerce and trade was creating an unprecedented affluence for the common man. This affluence, he lamented, had the detrimental effect on the Church of producing cultural Christians instead of true Christians.

It is the grace of God in our modern age that some are fortunate enough to become dissilusioned. I pray with everyone here that we remain mercifully stripped of our illusions of this world and it's consuming promises.

Blessings,

MC

Ironman wrote eloquently:

The genius of this system is that it squeezes God out of everything, school, work, political office and forces a reliance on the reasonings of man leaving us more than fair game for the enemy to knock us off. It is the nature of the world system, brutal, efficient, without God to make us slaves to satan.

This reminds me of this Scripture...

Mark 4

18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

The American dream requires that one competes for limited resources. We often hear how "efficient" the American economic system is compared to the rest of the world.

I live in a town that was founded by Milton Hershey. He built the factories, the homes, the schools, the theme park for those who worked for him. He created an endowment for orphans. Now the CEO is closing down the factories in Hershey, Canada, and California and building new factories in Mexico. It is a no-brainer for these men. There is no genius in what they do. They legitimize their decisions based on something that has no value, paper money. People strive for paper money. And others are destroyed for this paper money.

Vanity and futility.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Mike wrote:

Remarkably William Wilberforce discussed this modern condition emerging in his day some 200 years ago...he linked it to the fact that European commerce and trade was creating an unprecedented affluence for the common man.

This was the beginning of the breakup of the family. There is a devote christian family man that I know that struggles with the idea of highier education for his children. He says the children go away to school. They graduate and go wherever the job market calls. I have experienced this in my own life.

Where we live now, we attend a Brethren church where families have stayed together for generations. This seems so foreign to me. Three and four generations all attending church together. Life seems so different than what I have seen in California.

Yet everyone here looks at California and sees gold.

God Bless
Jeff

Brethren i greet you all in the Name of Jesus' Christ by whose Blood we are Jsutified. AMEN.

bro Mike C.

It is a persistant myth in the church today that people can't have a sense of meaning and purpose in life without the Lord. On the contrary, this world offers a wide assortment of meanings and reasons for living. This certainly is part of the problem with the modern gospel: "Jesus has come to fill your emptiness and give you a sense of fulfillment." The sad truth is most people can find plenty of purpose chasing the illusions that Ironman and Rookie describe.

i bless God for His working here to reveal the beauty and utility of fellowship. Indeed this notion that one's life can't be filled without Christ isn't true, the world strives very well and has a goodly degree of success in this endevour. Of course the enemy works hard to see this done hence all the gaudy, tantalizing and titilating things out there from fleshly lusts to the occult. However Satan's masterpiece is the thing which he has fashioned and spent ages developing which is to be the false parallel to what the Church is. This is the most sinister of things designed to pull people from God because it purports to be Christianity. we could call it churchianity, nominal christianity or whatever. We can tell it because the heart of it is man and the idea that God is man's servant. it is devoid of the Cross, SAcrifice, Holiness and Righteousness. It is one degree off the Truth but the end of it is perdition.

The idea of making money or satisfying other lusts is pretty rampant and appeals to the flesh such that most people get caught up in this and not necessarily the false faith but there is an even more wicked thing afoot which is like the offspring of these two things which is the prosperity gospel.

It is the grace of God in our modern age that some are fortunate enough to become dissilusioned. I pray with everyone here that we remain mercifully stripped of our illusions of this world and it's consuming promises.

indeed it is God's Grace that some are disillousioned. in this Grace some have been allowed to discern or feel that there [i][b]has[/b][/i] to be something more to the faith than the run of the mill grind...i ran into a young man a couple of weeks ago who is about 23 or so who is disillousioned and said to me that there must be something more. i knew and was led to tell him God has His hand on Him and i was uplifted.

our children are disillousioned like Hitler and his generation by our shallow faith. this is why they are acting up, they want a demonstration of the Faith which has Power, we can't deliver because we're out of the loop and so they turn to the enemy's alternatives from fornication and other things which appeal to the flesh to dark arts and such. some time ago i saw a young couple in barnes and noble who were looking at new age books and so i asked them what the deal was. the young man who was about 17 or so said to me that he called his parents the congregation's head hypocrites and they kicked him out of the house. his young girlfriend believed in other ways to heaven (which really is not the issue of Salvation but is a humanistic view of Salvation) God gave me Grace to refute that by stating Christ was the Way Truth and Life. She could not respond to that and i pray God pierced her heart that day. Either way i felt a sense that we have profoundly failed our children and sown the seeds of our own sufferings, worst of all though is that those who perish eternally because we failed to show God as God, their blood will be required at our hands...Oh dear saints i pray we raise our children as God would have us do! Let us not have given birth to a generation like that of Hitler which turned the world upside down seeking the fellowship in darkness (and finding) which was supposed to be theirs in the Light.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

bro Jeff
Greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Justified. AMEN.

Forgive the late response bro, i managed to write back to bro Mike C. but had to dash for a few hours.

18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

i bless God for so disillousioning me and quickening me to these things, were it not for Him, i would be in the dark and cold.

you know bro Jeff, that scripture is very pertinent to this issue, it is dead on. for those who are a bit weird like myself, perhaps it is worth noting that out of 4 types of people, only in one type does the word take root and abide...meaning only 1/4 will obtain Salvation. The enemy is hard at work to stop the gospel's advancement, he comes to snatch it away, choke it and also to harden the heart so it can't take root. He is ruthless and he is a murderer.

The American dream requires that one competes for limited resources. We often hear how "efficient" the American economic system is compared to the rest of the world.

yes the American dream seems to me the perfect thing to entice and ensnare men by appealing to our flesh. the possibilities are boundless, big houses cars, all sorts of gratifications...only in America can one live a sordid, twisted life and get a reality show and a book deal and come from obscurity to super-stardom! indeed as the Psalm says, the wicked rejoice when the vile things are celebrated.

I live in a town that was founded by Milton Hershey. He built the factories, the homes, the schools, the theme park for those who worked for him. He created an endowment for orphans. Now the CEO is closing down the factories in Hershey, Canada, and California and building new factories in Mexico. It is a no-brainer for these men. There is no genius in what they do. They legitimize their decisions based on something that has no value, paper money. People strive for paper money. And others are destroyed for this paper money.

you know, this is the trend, to outsource. This is the death of the middle class which drives the economy and this would eventually bring economic collapse or revolution. the very brutal efficiency of this devilish machine says it is designed to destroy lives, homes, everything. It forces one to become cold, perhaps this has something to do with what was said by Christ about men's hearts waxing cold...

Vanity and futility.

ahh and vanity (pride) is the root of all sin. our Lord quickened me to this, pride was the first thing Lucifer was guilty of and it lead to all this madness. i'm not sure who has watched the Devil's Advocate, but at the end, Al Pacino (playing Satan) says that vanity is his most favourite vice...after all it is the source of all sin. So much for those kids who think scarface was the best Pacino movie...i think the enemy so brazenly putting that out there in a movie and few pick up on it is indicative of the depth of our slumber...we're about to be slapped awake...

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Brother wrote:

So much for those kids who think scarface was the best Pacino movie...i think the enemy so brazenly putting that out there in a movie and few pick up on it is indicative of the depth of our slumber...we're about to be slapped awake...

Even to this day it amazes me that one can walk into a mall and find whole store fronts filled with "Scarface" momentos.

God Bless
Jeff

I thought it worth posting this bit of healthcare related news from my home state of Ohio. Today the state government passed a far-reaching measure providing [url=http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2007-06-28-0004.html]near universal healthcare coverage[/url] for children. The $52 billion budget also includes other health related considerations such as inner city youth programs, and tax cuts for seniors and disabled home owners.

MC