Exposing Bad Exposition: Answering Opposition to True Holiness

[b]This is a rebuttal to all those who misinterpret I John 1:8, and lay a stumbling block for saints on there way to entire sanctification....[/b]

[b]Exposing Bad Exposition:
Answering Opposition to True Holiness[/b]
[i]
By G.A. Jarquin[/i]

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Now some have labored long and hard to overthrow the saints’ holy faith by exclaiming that this passage of scripture is proof that a perfect sinless life is not possible on this green earth. I hope to refute and expose that faulty doctrine by making it plain and easy for all saints to understand this passage of scripture. It is true that there are many hard passages that seem to contradict a holy sinless life after conversion, but these are just that: seemingly hard passages. With a true and unbias look at scripture one is able to come to a conclusion that perfection is God’s heart for all His saints. This verse is one of those seemingly contradictory passages; however with the a brief view of context and proper scriptural exposition, such a fog and smoke screen that has been put up by the devil and mislead men will quickly vanquish as the light and the path of the Just grows brighter and brighter unto the perfect day.

I will begin by stating briefly the belief of those who misinterpret this scripture. Erroneously, some believe that this passage applies to believers always. In other words, that if a believer claims to have no sin, then he is deceived and the truth is not in him. This conclusion is drawn from the following:
1.) That the Greek language is in the present tense; therefore it must mean that we as saints still actively sin whether through indwelling or outward sins,
2.) That because John is the author, the Apostle John includes himself under the category of those who still do sin,
3.) Therefore, this scripture proves perfection to be impossible, and
4.) Anybody to claim they have no sin implies they are deceived.

Now all these statements have scriptural answers and rebuttals and I will get to that before this article is through, but first I want to exposit this text properly so that none are left in the dark and without a hope for a present deliverance from all sin including indwelling sin.

[b]Interpretation of the Verse[/b]

First to understand this verse one must look at the connection that John has just made with the previous verse which says, “1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

Note the end of the verse that states that when we are in the light as He is in the light, we are then able to fellowship with brethren of the household of God, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL SIN.

This is often overlooked by those who would try to use its proceeding verse as a stumbling block for those who are on the highway of holiness. The Apostle clearly taught that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL SIN, including indwelling and outward sins, all sin! So if the Apostle is stating that “we,” including himself, all presently sin, then the Apostle is not only in complete contradiction of his previous statement but also living in sin that very moment. This is a ridiculous conclusion to come to and one that would only be conceived in a heart that is not cleansed completely. If the Apostle John was stating that he too was in sin, then indwelling sin has become the inspiration of this text and not the Holy Ghost. Holy men wrote the Holy Scriptures! Not unholy prideful men struggling with sin who called themselves apostles. Such ministers would be ministers of so called righteousness, when they are nothing but devils in a false light. No the scripture says, “holy” men! Further, a blatant contradiction would be present if the “we” in these verses includes the person who claims to be cleansed. But not so; simply, the connection goes like this: "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, . . . the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
So the question is this: “Is the cleansed person that states ‘we’ actually cleansed or sinning?” Which one is it? John would have never written such a foolish and contradictory statement, and neither would the Holy Ghost. God makes no mistakes. Those who include John in this statement and believe he was in sin, bring down the Apostle to be an absurd writer. Only bad exposition can reduce John to such absurdity. It is like a medic telling all the people in the world that there is a medicine that cures all disease and then he himself is suffering of the same disease. No, the Apostle had experienced perfect love and holiness and could therefore speak of it. He had been cleansed by the blood of Jesus of both inward and outward sins.

So the question remains, “who is John talking about?” I believe that the “we” in the text is speaking of mankind: all those who have come from Adam and Eve. It is important to understand that one of the reasons John wrote this epistle was to come against the heretical teachings of the Gnostics of his day. One of their false teachings was that hey had never sinned. Sin was only a figment of imagination and sin only appeared upon the body but never really touched the soul and spirit. Therefore the soul was free from all pollutions of sin and its nature. Moreover, the Gnostics never really saw their need for a cleansing by the blood of the Lamb. Neither will any person who goes on thinking that they have never ever sinned. One who is like the Pharisees would never admit to committing any sin at all. This brings me to my next point.

Robertson’s Word Pictures correlates this verse in I John to a passage that the same author penned years before: “Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth” (John 9:41). This word picture is the same word picture that John is using in this First epistle. The Pharisees would never confess their sin to Jesus therefore their sin remained! Some of them were like Paul in believing themselves blameless in light of the Law; therefore were strict in their useless works. They gave their alms, encompassed land and sea to make disciples, believed in the coming of the Messiah, preached, and did all things that seemed good. But their problem was that they had not internal righteousness: they did not have universal conformity to the perfect law of God inwardly. Some were deceived by this and so never sought to be justified by faith alone in prayer to God. The apostle is referring to these. He is talking about those who would never even consider themselves unworthy of coming before God. He spoke of those who looked straight into heaven without a bowing down in penitence; those who would not ever consider themselves sinners. Those are the self deceivers that John warns us against. But those who, like the Publican, were willing to beat their breast at their inward and outward sins, come to Jesus humbly, and confess their sins were cleansed from all sin and all unrighteousness. Precisely what our text in the proceeding verse: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). So not only is our sin pardoned but all unrighteousness is then cleansed, including what some would call indwelling sin. Praise God He does exceedingly far above all we ask or think!

The scripture here clearly states and eradicates the idea that one is able to cleansed from indwelling sin. The verse says that by His blood we are 1. Pardoned of all our sins, and 2. Sanctified by the cleansing of all unrighteousness from our hearts.

This clearly the Apostles intention, for he goes on to say later in the same epistle, that “he who has this hope in him, purifies himself as He is pure.” He also says that, “1Jn 3:5-7 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” What are we to believe but the plain truth of this text. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which is sin; both and its inward and outward workings. In Him there is no sin, neither indwelling or outward, and the Apostle says that we should be deceived by no one, that he who does righteousness is as righteous as He is righteous, and how was Christ righteous, well He hand neither indwelling nor outward sins. This is our hope and great expectancy in this life, for sin to be rooted out in all its forms. Jesus was not just outwardly righteous as the hypocrites of his day, He was inwardly and outwardly righteous. Perfect righteousness as the one of Christ is what we are to have after we are pardoned and completely sanctified , for as verse 9 declares He cleanses us not only from all our sin, but ALL our unrighteousness, so we can be righteous as He is righteous. Glory!

The next verse states, “1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

This, as many commentators state, is the verse that explains verse 8; it comments on the idea in verse 8 that says, “If we say we have no sin.” Now obviously none could say that; none should dare say. If so, the truth is not in them and the blood cannot atone for them. The blood is not able to cleanse what we are not willing to confess when we come to Christ, but once it is confessed it can be cleansed and pardoned. God can go on to perfect the work in us by cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

The great deception the apostle is writing against is not the so called deception of living a sinless life after believing in Christ. Instead he seeks to destroy the delusion that a man before conversion never has had any sin or any transgression, and therefore has no need of a Savior. But we know that the scriptures have completely confined all men without Christ under sin.

If this is not the plain meaning of text then all the verses written are a contradiction. It is a contradiction to say that all men, especially saints, must confess they have indwelling, and sometimes outward, sin everyday so that the blood of Jesus cleanses those sins but can’t or doesn’t remove the unrighteousness. No, God is able to forgive all sins and remove all unrighteousness. Either we confess everyday to sinning or we confess everyday He is, and He is able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness! I would rather choose the latter: to believe God is able o remove all unrighteousness in my heart, mind, soul, and body. Such faith would not be beyond what the Bible says. Jesus Himself told me to be holy as He is holy. Not to mention that the Beloved Apostle wrote to us so that we sin not! ( I John 2:1). So which one is it? Did he write so that we continue to confess our sin to stay humble? Or did He write to us to not sin? It seems clear that from the rest of the scriptures in this epistle that he believes sin is of the devil and the Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil; that in Him there is not sin, and he who abides in Him does not sin!

Here are a few great men who believe and interpret verse 9 in the same way…
John Wesley in his book Plain Account of Christian Perfection wrote:
“But St. John himself says, 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves;' and, 'If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.'
"I answer, (1.) The tenth verse fixes the sense of the eighth: 'If we say we have no sin,' in the former, being explained by, 'If we say we have not sinned,' in the latter, verse. (2.) The point under consideration is not, whether we have or have not sinned heretofore; and neither of these verses asserts that we do sin, or commit sin now. (3.) The ninth verse explains both the eighth and tenth: 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' As if he had said, 'I have before affirmed, The blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin.' And no man can say, 'I need it not; I have no sin to be cleansed, from.' 'If we say, we have no sin, that 'we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves,' and make God a liar: But 'if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just,' not only 'to forgive us our sins,' but also 'to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,' that we may 'go and sin no more.' In conformity, therefore, both to the doctrine of St. John, and the whole tenor of the New Testament, we fix this conclusion: A Christian is so far perfect, as not to commit sin.
"This is the glorious privilege of every Christian, yea, though he be but a babe in Christ. But it is only of grown Christians it can be affirmed, they are in such a sense perfect, as, Secondly, to be freed from evil thoughts and evil tempers. First, from evil or sinful thoughts. Indeed, whence should they spring? 'Out of the heart of man,' if at all, 'proceed evil thoughts.' If, therefore, the heart be no longer evil, then evil thoughts no longer proceed out of it: For 'a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.' -John Wesley
Adam Clarke also agreed in his Commentary of the Epistle of St. John and wrote the following:

“1Jn 1:8 -
If we say that we have no sin - This is tantamount to 1Jo_1:10 : If we say that we have not sinned. All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and therefore every man needs a Savior, such as Christ is. It is very likely that the heretics, against whose evil doctrines the apostle writes, denied that they had any sin, or needed any Savior. In deed, the Gnostics even denied that Christ suffered: the Aeon, or Divine Being that dwelt in the man Christ Jesus, according to them, left him when he was taken by the Jews; and he, being but a common man, his sufferings and death had neither merit nor efficacy.
We deceive ourselves - By supposing that we have no guilt, no sinfulness, and consequently have no need of the blood of Christ as an atoning sacrifice: this is the most dreadful of all deceptions, as it leaves the soul under all the guilt and pollution of sin, exposed to hell, and utterly unfit for heaven.
The truth is not in us - We have no knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus, the whole of which is founded on this most awful truth - all have sinned, all are guilty, all are unholy; and none can redeem himself. Hence it is as necessary that Jesus Christ should become incarnated, and suffer and die to bring men to God.”-Adam Clarke

Charles Finney, a great advocate of sanctification, believed the same. In answering objections to perfection and sinless living in his Systematic Theology, stated:
“6. Another objection is founded upon 1Jo_1:8 : "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Upon this I remark:
(1.) Those who make this passage an objection to the doctrine of entire sanctification in this life, assume that the apostle is here speaking of sanctification instead of justification; whereas an honest examination of the passage, if I mistake not, will render it evident that the apostle makes no allusion here to sanctification, but is speaking solely of justification. A little attention to the connexion in which this verse stands will, I think, render this evident. But before I proceed to state what I understand to be the meaning of this passage, let us consider it in the connexion in which it stands, in the sense in which they understand it who quote it for the purpose of opposing the sentiment advocated in these lectures.
They understand the apostle as affirming, that, if we say we are in a state of entire sanctification and do not sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Now if this were the apostle's meaning, he involves himself in this connexion in two flat contradictions.
(2.) This verse is immediately preceded by the assertion that the "blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin." Now it would be very remarkable, if immediately after this assertion the apostle should mean to say, (as they suppose he did,) that it does not cleanse us from all sin, and if we say it does, we deceive ourselves; for he had just asserted, that the blood of Jesus Christ does cleanse us from all sin. If this were his meaning, it involves him in as palpable a contradiction as could be expressed.
(3.) This view of the subject then represents the apostle in the conclusion of the seventh verse, as saying, the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin; and in the eighth verse, as saying, that if we suppose ourselves to be cleansed from all sin, we deceive ourselves, thus flatly contradicting what he had just said. And in the ninth verse he goes on to say, that "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness;" that is, the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from all sin; but if we say it does, we deceive ourselves. "But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Now, all unrighteousness is sin. If we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, we are cleansed from sin. And now suppose a man should confess his sin, and God should in faithfulness and justice forgive his sin, and cleanse him from all unrighteousness, and then he should confess and profess that God had done this; are we to understand, that the apostle would then affirm that he deceives himself, in supposing that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin? But, as I have already said, I do not understand the apostle as affirming anything in respect to the present moral character of any one, but as speaking of the doctrine of justification.
This then appears to me to be the meaning of the whole passage. If we say that we are not sinners, that is, have no sin to need the blood of Christ; that we have never sinned, and consequently need no Saviour, we deceive ourselves. For we have sinned, and nothing but the blood of Christ cleanseth from sin, or procures our pardon and justification. And now, if we will not deny, but confess that we have sinned, "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." "But if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Finney summarized and defined what he believed the inspired author was saying in the last part of the verse. If that is not clear enough, I think John Fletcher paraphrased best when he said,

“…It appears that the text so dear to us, and so mistaken by our opponents, has this fair, Scriptural meaning: -- "If we [followers of Him who came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance] say, We have no sin [no native depravity from our first parents, and no actual sin, at least no such sin as deserves God's wrath; fancying we need not secure a particular application of Christ's atoning and purifying blood] we deceive ourselves, and the truth [of repentance and faith] is not in us."

This statement is what I believe, the whole meaning of the text and nothing else. It is clear that John was not stating that a saints sins all the time, nor seven times a day, nor anything of the sort. Instead he is upholding the truth of the gospel within the doctrines of justification and entire sanctification as a true holiness preacher would. A true holiness preacher would uphold the standard of living without inward and outward sin. All the previously quoted preachers were men that preached holiness. They never interpreted this passage of scripture any other way. Only those that deny a complete victory over all sin use 1 John 1:8 to propagate their views to say that it is not possible to live without sin in this life.

There are many others who viewed this scripture verse the same way, but I will not continue to quote preacher after preacher since it is clear that: 1.) John would never contradict himself so clearly while writing holy scripture, 2.) Jesus blood is efficient enough to cleanse of all sin and eventually all unrighteousness, and 3.) Those who are deceiving themselves are those who will not confess their sin and come to Jesus for justification.

[b]Other Truths to Consider[/b]

If this scripture (verse 8 ) is understood to teach that Jesus just covers our sins and is not efficient to sanctify us inwardly in all parts, then you have trampled already on the blood of the everlasting covenant. It is to say that Jesus is presently here and able to heal all our diseases, but even as people go to reach out to Him to receive some virtue flowing from Him their sickness is only suspended outwardly and under their body lies festering poisonous viruses that will not be removed until they die. No, when God heals, He heals to the uttermost removing all leprosy, and when God saves He saves to the uttermost.

If this scripture (verse 8 ) definitely confines under indwelling sin, then what will cleanse all our sin? Death is not able to purify us, and get rid of the indwelling sin. According to the following verse it is the “blood of Jesus that cleanses us (presently) from all sins and all unrighteousness,”

\t \tTo further clarify, the ‘we have no sin’ has a different meaning than what is normally understood. It does not at all imply the act of sin, but instead it is the idea of guilt when examining the original language. This knowledge throws in a new spin on the whole text. In light of this, the verse could be interpreted to say, those ‘who say they have no guilt are deceived and the truth is not in them.” This view is clearly seen through the Greek word picture that only John uses in his writings and can be found to be used by no one else is the New Testament. Daniel Steele better explains the text in the following exposition,

“Bishop Westcott, the great English scholar, whose commentary on this Epistle [of First John], on which he spent most of his life, takes rank with the commentaries of Bishop Lightfoot, as most thorough and exhaustive, exceeding even German accuracy, and used by German professors themselves -- this exegete proves beyond all contradiction that the phrase, "to have sin," used only in two other texts in the Bible (John 9:41,15:22, 24) [I have quoted 9:41 earlier, here is John 15:22 ‘If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.’ and John 15:24 ‘If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.’], and only in John's writings, always signifies, not a guiltless evil tendency, but guilt. "Like corresponding phrases, to have faith, to have life, to have grief, to have fellowship, it marks the presence of something which is not isolated, but a continuous source of influence. It is distinguished from 'to sin,' as the sinful principle is distinguished from the sinful act itself." "To have sin" includes the idea of "Personal Guilt." Bengel says, "not to have sin denies guilt." With this light thrown upon the text, let us read it again: "If we say that we have no personal guilt at the present moment, although the blood of Jesus Christ has just this hour cleansed us from all sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." According to this, every testimony to the remission of the guilt of sin is a deception and a falsehood.”

That little bit of light changes the whole meaning of the text and not because we have added to it, but because a proper exegete shows that this is the true meaning of the author.

[b]Objections Answered[/b]

No matter what the objections to this doctrine of Christian Perfection are, and no matter which new ones come forth, it is plain to see that whatever might be designed by antinomians or whatever is constructed by mislead believers to make these passages say that this I Epistle of John is confining and restricting all under sin, we know (As I’ve previously discussed) that this is not so. To condescend and accept such a teaching would be to destroy the three legs that hold up this epistle: 1.) John’s purpose in writing the Epistle: “I write to you that ye sin not,” and against Antinomian heretics like Gnostics, 2.) to the context of chapter, and 3.) The pure and strict doctrine which he enforces in the rest of the Epistle which is mainly that light and darkness are separate, and that righteousness and sin are as far apart from each other as Jesus and Satan. But for the sake of clarity, let’s discuss some common objections.

“ All Greek Scholars state that this ‘we’ is in the present tense, therefore sin is in John and all believers through indwelling sin.” This is not true since I have quoted some scholars that do not believe that. “To have sin” is not an act of sin, but guilt. Guilt must be admitted by Pharisee, Publican, and any other type of sinner before he can come to Christ. If not their ‘sin’ or ‘guilt’ remains as Jesus stated in John 9:41. As I have already brought out, this clearly shown along with the very words of Jesus in the Greek word picture that is found only in two places in the New Testament: in John’s gospel and in his Epistle.

To further answer this good question, I would I would like to draw your attention the original language. Anyone that is familiar with Greek, would know that the ‘present tense’ in the Greek is not the same type of present tense we use in the English language. Actually, it is very different. It actually expresses a ‘present continuous’ action and not a single act. This would causes a huge problem since the rest of the epistle rebukes all continuous acts of sins, and according to this bad exegete, John would be saying “He who says he has no ‘present continual’ sin is deceived and the truth is not in him.” This is horrible, especially since he says to not be deceived, “he who does righteousness is a righteous as He is righteous, He who sins (continually) is of the devil!” This is utterly ridiculous as you can see. The present tense in fact brings more support to those who believe that verse 8 says “if we (continue to) say we have no sin (guilt) are deceived.”

\tFurther, the word is not even a verb! What?!?! Most will say, that is right the word “αμαρτιαν266 N-ASF” is parced not as a verb but a noun. Now what does that mean? That means that the phrase “to have no sin” is a thing, and is describing not continual present acts of sin but instead it is describing a sin principal, indwelling sin, or the principal of guilt. This means that John, like all believers, is rightly expressing that he was guilty of crucifying the Lord of glory but not stating that he was indwelled by sin or committing sin outwardly. Truthfully, because we all have sinned in times past, and because of our sins it is that the Lord of Glory died. It was our fault! When there is a full acknowledgment of personal guilt, then the Lord cleanses from all sins and guilt, so that their no longer remains condemnation for those in Christ Jesus! We could and should say, ‘we all have guilt (to have sin)’ and remain without sinning that very moment. Which leaves room for the possibility in the rest of their lives to be without acts of sin. This many of the Greek scholars know, but will not point out to the public because of their bias. But praise God that the scripture is still God’s words not men’s!

“The Apostle John includes himself under category of those who still do sin.” This is absurd with such light that has been shed abroad on the subject already. John has not admitted to acts of sin, but instead the very opposite: that he is in perfect love and that he keeps all of God’s commandments. The only claim that can be rightly attributed to John by those who oppose this view is that John is admitting guilt of having sinned in times past, and not in the present. John was a holy man and would not live contrary to his own writings; He loved God with all his heart, mind, soul, and strength.

“This scripture proves perfection impossible.” This is not true since the premise is wrong. To say he was in acts of sin in verse 8 is incorrect. He said no such thing. In fact, he states the opposite throughout the whole epistle and is one of the strongest advocates of perfect holiness in the whole New Testament. He constantly talks about the perfect love that God gives and of the one we return to him. Love is that moral action of God towards all his creatures, and we can exemplify and be imitators of God in love.

“For anybody to claim they have no sin implies they are deceived.” This point also falls apart because it is based on a false premise that implies that John is in sin in verse 8. The only ones that are deceived are those who never admit their guilt and need for a suffering Savior to atone for their sins and unrighteousness. These types of people exist amongst us today. People like the Christian Scientist’s deny sin and original sin, thus deny the need for Jesus’ atoning blood and sacrifice. They deny that His blood is needed to cleanse us of sin, which to them does not exist. There are also many Jews and Pharisees that deny their guilt in the shedding of Jesus’ blood. They deny their guilt and wash their hands free of the blood of Jesus as if water were enough to cleanse. These will not be atoned for by His blood, and will not have all their unrighteousness removed unless they repent. Christians are not to be scared away by this fall understanding of verse 8. Instead they are to earnestly perfect their holiness, and then confess it boldly when it is accomplished in their souls, for it is as much a work of God as justification.

[b]The Motive of Misinterpretation[/b]

Why would anybody misinterpret these scriptures? I believe I have a few answers such a question which of none are fitting for anyone who call themselves a saint.
[b]
1. Ignorance[/b]- in the day that we are living in, we have many apostate teachers who go forth to discourage and poison the minds of sincere believers by propagating views they don’t even know where they originated from. Some sincere Christians hear the accusing words of ‘sinless perfection’ and they are repelled by it because many so called teachers preach a watered down sanctification message. Others don’t know what they are saying or have never really studied it out for themselves. Living a sinless life was taught by many saints throughout the world, and I believe is clearly taught in scripture. It comes down to ignorance of the ‘scriptures and of the very power of God.’

[b]2. Indwelling Sin[/b] –Most believers want to excuse sins that are in their hearts and minds. They know they are saved and justified but how to overcome such wretched filthiness within them they do not know or are falsely taught by so called leaders of their church. They struggle with thoughts of sin and begin to form carnal doctrines to accommodate their sin and state that sin is within us and will not be removed until we die. Those who know the workings and the power of the Holy Ghost would never quench or grieve Him by saying such things. Only the heart that is still not completely controlled by the Spirit can muster up such justifications and we will sin until we die. I believe that those who write such things are not writing under inspiration of the indwelling Holy Ghost, but under the gall of bitterness of indwelling sin still seeping through their members.

[b]3. Bad Hermeneutics[/b]- We so often interpret scriptures with bad hermeneutics (a harmonizing of scripture) and that is not always our fault but rather just a lack of study and diligence to look at what the whole counsel of God’s word says. We can see clearly that the rest of the word of God resists sin and stands for holiness. It is especially seen in this epistle. It is so clear that John never contradicts himself throughout the whole epistle. He clearly says that all sin, indwelling or outward, is of the devil, and must be dealt with by the all cleansing blood of the Lamb. The scriptures clearly teach that one sin can cut us off eternally from God and that if we are true children of God, it can destroy our fellowship with our Father in heaven, and eventually lead to perdition because there is a sin that leads unto death, but not all of sin does. We must with the utmost faith believe that He is able to save to the uttermost all who call upon Him. So many people have not come to Christ for this thorough cleansing because so called leaders out there misuse and misunderstand the scripture as in this case. Many have been deceived to think that inward and outward sin is tolerated by God. Many saints have had to live with the idea that there is no cure for their inward struggles and indwelling sin, but according to the word of God, there is.

[b]
Conclusion[/b]

\t Many have been deceived to think that inward and outward sin is tolerated by God. Many saints have had to live with the idea that there is no cure for their inward struggles and indwelling sin, but there is according to the word of God. When unbelievers and believers look at this verse, unbelievers are strengthened in their sins, and believers get too comfortable in their indwelling sin. God is calling us to be cleansed of all sin and all unrighteousness.

I would like to encourage all those who are defenders and diligent studiers of truth to really look into this verse for themselves and that they be more noble minded like the Bereans, and to not just take carnal men’s doctrines to confine them under sin their whole lives. I pray that God will bless you all in your diligent study of the word of God. I would also like to end by quoting John Fletcher, “This doctrine of St. John is perfectly agreeable to that of our Lord, who said that ‘Judas had a devil,’ because he gave place to the love of money; and who called Peter himself ‘Satan,’ when he ‘savored the things of men,’ in opposition to ‘the things of God.” I hope that none fall into that snare that the devil has laid for all of us to excuse one sin or any sin.

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Forevidence, are you believing that it's either the Sinless Perfection Doctrine or blatant Antinomianism ?

That is what I'm getting from G.A. Jarquin.

We covered these verses in 1John in our Greek class and since then have yet to find many who hold to the Sinless Perfection Doctrine.

I posted my thoughts on that other thread, that we are to even take "every thought" captive to the obedience of Christ and though I don't watch TV or read secular things and try to give each day to whatever I feel The Lord is telling me to do and nothing wanting to do with grieving the Holy Spirit ... yet I know from many years of researching this from every Expositor that I can find, that the doctrine of Sinless Perfection is a heresy. It would do no good for me to dig into the Greek to counter this article if this is where you firmly stand.
Just the simple e-sword alone, will prove this man has pulled what he's wanted from those he quotes, such as A. T. Robertson, etc..

Does that give one the excuse to "sin more so that grace more abounds - God forbid!"

There is much to counter in this Rebutal of Mr. Jarquin, but I believe just a google search on Sinless Perfection should suffice or just an e-sword for that matter.

No offense to you at all brother, but this doctrine leads to much spiritual pride and that is the most subtle and dangerous of all sins.
This is "Bad Hermeneutics" and not fair Greek exegesis. The Greek and it's tenses and grammar are all that matters in this discussion of opinions.

In Peace.
Annie

Google search...

Sinless perfection is a term that is some times use to describe the Wesleyan teaching of Christian perfection by the opponents of this doctrine. John Wesley himself didn't use this term and noted in his book A Plain Account of Christian Perfection that "...sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself."[1]

However John William Fletcher, a key interpreter of Wesleyan theology in the 18th century used the term evangelically sinless perfection or evangelically sinless but notes in his book The Last Check to Antinomianism that "With respect to the FIRST, that is, the Adamic, Christless law of innocence and paradisiacal perfection, we utterly renounce the doctrine of sinless perfection."[2]

You calling the Wesleyan Holiness people heretics? They believed that doctrine?

You should really read the article before you answer too quick.
Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

so let me get this right(please correct if i am wrong)
1) once a man confesses his sin then God can Forgive that man.

2) once that man is forgiven he is imputed the righteousness of Christ.

3) that man is now to live a sinless life, never to sin again.( how does this man do this?)

4 what happens if he does sin?

5) forevidence, are you sinless?

6) Forevidence have you ever met anyone who was sinless?

love
andy

andres wrote:
so let me get this right(please correct if i am wrong)
1) once a man confesses his sin then God can Forgive that man.

2) once that man is forgiven he is imputed the righteousness of Christ.

3) that man is now to live a sinless life, never to sin again.( how does this man do this?)

4 what happens if he does sin?

5) forevidence, are you sinless?

6) Forevidence have you ever met anyone who was sinless?

love
andy

1. If a saint sins, he has an advocate with the Father and is able to be restored.

2. I have yet to attain entire sanctification, but I believe God will do that work in me.

3.Yes, I have met many saints who are sinless and are living in this day.

1)now if a man is able to be "entirly sanctified" or attain "sinless perfection", can he sin again?

2) and if he does sin then you might say that he was not really perfected after all because he had some evil desire that came from within to sin. would you agree?

thanks for answering my questions, alot of times we will spout off a point of doctrine but we have no earthly idea what it truly means, kind of like parrots,( they can talk but dont know what they are saying) and as Christans we know the right things to say but dont truly understand what and how a point of Doctrine effects out lives. so thats why i m asking you questions, to see what you believe and how do you live it out?
good nite God Bless
love andy

andres wrote:
1)now if a man is able to be "entirly sanctified" or attain "sinless perfection", can he sin again?

2) and if he does sin then you might say that he was not really perfected after all because he had some evil desire that came from within to sin. would you agree?

thanks for answering my questions, alot of times we will spout off a point of doctrine but we have no earthly idea what it truly means, kind of like parrots,( they can talk but dont know what they are saying) and as Christans we know the right things to say but dont truly understand what and how a point of Doctrine effects out lives. so thats why i m asking you questions, to see what you believe and how do you live it out?
good nite God Bless
love andy

When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

But that does not prove that he was not perfect.

Adam was perfect and fell, so is the Christian if he falls from perfection, but God is able to restore him to it again.

2. I have yet to attain entire sanctification, but I believe God will do that work in me.

So you yourself admit that you aren't sinless and have sin in you? This basically shoots down your entire article - or are you claiming to be sinless? If you one was to read your article knowing that you claim to NOT be sinless they would think you were a hypocrite and contradictory in the highest degree. Reread the article with the knowledge that the author admits to having sin and you will see what I mean.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

But that does not prove that he was not perfect.

Adam was perfect and fell, so is the Christian if he falls from perfection, but God is able to restore him to it again.

This makes no sense at all and is completely contradictory in nature - to say one was perfect (entire sanctification) and then sins after entire sanctification and then is entirely sanctified again and then sins angina and then again is entirely sanctified and back and forth... the statement condemns itself.. there really isn't much more to say :-? :-? :-?

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

yet I know from many years of researching this from every Expositor that I can find, that the doctrine of Sinless Perfection is a heresy. It would do no good for me to dig into the Greek to counter this article if this is where you firmly stand.
Just the simple e-sword alone, will prove this man has pulled what he's wanted from those he quotes, such as A. T. Robertson, etc..

Does that give one the excuse to "sin more so that grace more abounds - God forbid!"

There is much to counter in this Rebutal of Mr. Jarquin, but I believe just a google search on Sinless Perfection should suffice or just an e-sword for that matter.

No offense to you at all brother, but this doctrine leads to much spiritual pride and that is the most subtle and dangerous of all sins.
This is "Bad Hermeneutics" and not fair Greek exegesis. The Greek and it's tenses and grammar are all that matters in this discussion of opinions.

In Peace.
Annie

Your are correct Annie - this article is complete heresy, there are almost no holiness preachers past or present who agree with (useless you twist and misquote there words) there is so much in Scripture to come against such heresy it almost baffling where to start, and it is absolutely leads to spiritual pride and condemnation two of the worst sins of all.

roaringlamb wrote (same article different thread)

Much of what has been written has deeply saddened me, for the vast majority of it is the type of self centered sanctification that ultimately ends up in despair.

and

I digress as the whole reason we are accepted at all is Christ alone. There are no amount of good works you can do to be accpeted by the Father if you are not in Him, and conversely if you are in Him, you have every blessing.

Christ is our great Reward, not sinlessness, not sanctification, but Christ Himslef, the One who died for the ungodly that they might live to God.

Brethren much of what has been written here is no different than the Roman Catholic mixture of justification and sanctification. They blur the lines so that none can be justified unless sanctification is perfect. Yet as we all know if we are honest, it is an ongoing battle day by day. How then could any be saved? In the Roman system they invented purgatory to help explain away this dilemma.

Much of this also seems very much like the judaizers who were saying one could not be a CHristian unless... To them Paul adamantly said that a man is justified by faith alone. Consider this passage,
"Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

I agree this s article is deeply saddening - VERY SAD - and your analysis of the the article is very good.

Here are some other great men of God who disagree with Giancarlos article:

"Am I saying a genuine convert never sins? Of course not. A Christian has, every Christian has a battle with the world, the flesh and
the devil. And sometimes he does fall into sin. But that’s the point. He falls into sin while the hypocrite, the false convert, dives
into sin."
~ Ray Comfort

"There have been strains of chrsitianity, marginal christianity, that down through the history of the church believed ina sinless
perfection. Well, the bible does not teach that. The bible teaches that even the most mature, most Godly christian is still
subseptical to sin. What this is teaching us is this, that one of the greatest evidences that a person has truly been born again, is
truly a child of God, is that they will be sensitive to the sin in their life and they will be lead to repentance and confession..."
~Paul Washer

"I remember sitting across from a brother and talking with him. And the conversation in scripture came to 1 John 1:8. He stated that he
felt he had no sin right now as we were talking. And I asked him well do you think you sinned in the last hour? last 30 minutes? he
said yes but he asked for forgivness and with a straight face told me he had right now no sense of sin in his life.
We can think we are sinless sitting by ourselves in a room but wait till God puts certain people or situations in our lifes. Or even if
the presence of the Holy God comes near to us we will actually start to realize how sinful we are in light of God's absolute purity and
perfection! Have mercy on me God a sinner. is my constant heart-cry."
~ Greg Gordon

"Perfection does not mean a sinless, flawless heart. Man judges by outward appearances, by what he sees. But God judges the heart, the
unseen motives (1 Samuel 16:7). David was said to have had a perfect heart toward God "all the days of his life," yet he failed the
Lord often. His life was marked forever by adultery and a notorious murder."
~ David Wilkerson

"In combating the error of “sin-your-way-to-heaven” Antinomianism, many have fallen into the fatal trap of swinging the pendulum too
far to the opposite extreme, preaching an impossibly high standard of holiness. Then, since nobody can meet these incredibly high
standards, those who are truly born of God begin to condemn themselves and question their salvation because they cannot meet such
standards. Thus, their assurance before God is shaken, their faith is destroyed, and they fall into the pit of self-condemnation."
~Josef Urban

I love you Giacarlo and I am deeply saddened to see you have fallen under such terrible teachings. I look forward ward to seeing you soon out in Cali and I am sure we (me, you Josef and Andrew) can hash this out openly and publicly and the Spirit will bear witness. I love you bro - give me a call anytime -I'll see you soon.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

But even babes in Christ are in such a sense perfect, or born of God, (an expression taken also in divers senses,) as, First, not to commit sin. If any doubt of this privilege of the sons of God, the question is not to be decided by abstract reasonings, which may be drawn out into an endless length, and leave the point just as it was before. [b]Neither is it to be determined by the experience of this or that particular person.[/b] Many may suppose they do not commit sin, when they do; but this proves nothing either way. To the law and to the testimony we appeal. "Let God be true, and every man a liar." [Rom. 3:4] By his Word will we abide, and that alone. Hereby we ought to be judged.

-John Wesley

My experience has much to do with it because I have wrote the article, but I know of dozens of Christians who professed it in the past and lived it, and I know dozens of Christians that live it now, this very moment.

When John Wesley was asked if People can fall from perfection this is what he said...

"Q. 30. Can they fall from it?

"A. I am well assured they can; matter of fact puts this beyond dispute. Formerly we thought, one saved from sin could not fall; now we know the contrary. We are surrounded with instances of those who lately experienced all that I mean by perfection. They had both the fruit of the Spirit, and the witness; but they have now lost both. Neither does any one stand by virtue of anything that is implied in the nature of the state. There is no such height or strength of holiness as it is impossible to fall from. If there be any that cannot fall, this wholly depends on the promise of God.

Q. 31. Can those who fall from this state recover it?

"A. Why not? We have many instances of this also. Nay, it is an exceeding common thing for persons to lose it more than once, before they are established therein.

Also...

About those other men of God....

This article was not written in thought of any of these preachers that you have quoted, but I will respond anyways. Any person preacher or so called saint that discourages another saint from perfect holiness is telling them to sin. if your aim is not sinlessness, you are greatly decieved.

“For it is in this manner that one truly follows the Savior; by aiming at sinlessness and at
[u][b]His perfections.”[/b][/u]
-Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.597

"Am I saying a genuine convert never sins? Of course not. A Christian has, every Christian has a battle with the world, the flesh and
the devil. And sometimes he does fall into sin. But that’s the point. He falls into sin while the hypocrite, the false convert, dives
into sin."
~ Ray Comfort

The point here is that Ray says 'sometimes.' just like when John said 'If' we sin than we have an advocate witht he Father. Christians do sin sometimes, but they should not at all.

"There have been strains of chrsitianity, marginal christianity, that down through the history of the church believed ina sinless
perfection. Well, the bible does not teach that. The bible teaches that even the most mature, most Godly christian is still
subseptical to sin. What this is teaching us is this, that one of the greatest evidences that a person has truly been born again, is
truly a child of God, is that they will be sensitive to the sin in their life and they will be lead to repentance and confession..."
~Paul Washer

Pail Washer is aa Calvinist and because of his view of indwellling sin will not accept a perfect holiness. He is misguided in his doctrine like most Calvinist but is not an enemy of righteousness, unless he goes on to discourage people from entering into perfection which he is very close to doing.

"I remember sitting across from a brother and talking with him. And the conversation in scripture came to 1 John 1:8. He stated that he
felt he had no sin right now as we were talking. And I asked him well do you think you sinned in the last hour? last 30 minutes? he
said yes but he asked for forgivness and with a straight face told me he had right now no sense of sin in his life.
We can think we are sinless sitting by ourselves in a room but wait till God puts certain people or situations in our lifes. Or even if
the presence of the Holy God comes near to us we will actually start to realize how sinful we are in light of God's absolute purity and
perfection! Have mercy on me God a sinner. is my constant heart-cry."
~ Greg Gordon

I love Greg but he is coming to a bad conclusions based on unsanctified bleivers. A emtirely sanctified believer would not have any sense of sin only pure love flowing out of his heart, and depending on how long he has been entirely sanctifie, he might not even have any consciousness of sin whatsovere and he could live like that for years. Greg is another person that I have talked too that rejects perfect holiness, the way the true holiness people preached it, like the methodists.

"Perfection does not mean a sinless, flawless heart. Man judges by outward appearances, by what he sees. But God judges the heart, the
unseen motives (1 Samuel 16:7). David was said to have had a perfect heart toward God "all the days of his life," yet he failed the
Lord often. His life was marked forever by adultery and a notorious murder."
~ David Wilkerson

I love Wilkerson, but he does not know what Perfection means, and if we were to apply what David said here about King David then we can live in open rebeliion against God and still be perfect in our love towards him, that is ridiculous.

Perfect in the Hebrew and Greek check it...

Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Hebrew-תּמים
tâmîym
taw-meem'
From H8552; [b]entire (literally, figuratively or morally[/b]); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

Hebrew implies morally perfect

Lets look at the greek...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Greek-τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; [b]complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); [/b]neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

This is what God commands that we be. I love Wilkerson but this bad interpretation and application the scripture.

"In combating the error of “sin-your-way-to-heaven” Antinomianism, many have fallen into the fatal trap of swinging the pendulum too
far to the opposite extreme, preaching an impossibly high standard of holiness. Then, since nobody can meet these incredibly high
standards, those who are truly born of God begin to condemn themselves and question their salvation because they cannot meet such
standards. Thus, their assurance before God is shaken, their faith is destroyed, and they fall into the pit of self-condemnation."
~Josef urban

I have prepared an articel that I will be posting very soon concerning Joseph's article and also some bad expostion about I jonh 1:8. Stay tuned....

God bless!

I love all these borthers and they have done a great thing for th kingdom, but they are not right on this issue of holiness. But I still consider them brothers in the Lord.

Patrick please study before you answer things and accuse people of things...

Brother I do not care what any man says IF it negates or diminshes Christ's work of redemption. He did not die to make salvation possible only if we work at it, but rather He died to save His people from their sins, all of them past, present, future. The joy of this as the Holy Spirit gives life to person is amazing.

For many years, I read Brengle, Booth, Finney, and I always was looking at self to make me right before God. I was a slave and served Him as such. But then, oh blessed day it was, the Holy Spirit showed me that God wants sons and daughters, not slaves. He wants men and woman who have no righteousness of their own, but have Christ as their righteousness, and are unnited to Him by the Spirit.

Just so you know, Wesley wrote and preached much before he was converted, and interestinlgy enough he attributes his conversion to when he heard Martin Luther's preface to the Epistle of Paul to the Romans. Can you imagine that? a Reformed view of Christ is what helped Wesley see that God had done all in Christ.

Now I hope I do not step on too many toes here, but Arminian Theology runs the very path you are on, straight into a works baesd righteousness because they have the same view of Christ as the Roman system, in that Christ's death has made salvation possible, but man must apply it. Scripture speaks of a God who sovereignly pursues people, and brings them into what Christ has purchased for them. But then man has no basis to boast does he? that's the point.

Please remember the Scripture that asks the question, "who made you to differ. what hast thou that thou didst not receive? If thou didst receive it, then why do you boast?"

Patrick please study before you answer things and accuse people of things...

Study what? - all you did was twist Wesley's words to try to prove your point - Wesley was taking about Christian perfection not the heresy of sinless perfection you were speaking of in your article.

What would suggest I study and what do you think I am accusing you of? - all I was doing is agree with the other posters and these other great men of God.

But like I said - we'll hash it out. ;-)

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother I do not care what any man says IF it negates or diminshes Christ's work of redemption. He did not die to make salvation possible only if we work at it, but rather He died to save His people from their sins, all of them past, present, future. The joy of this as the Holy Spirit gives life to person is amazing.

For many years, I read Brengle, Booth, Finney, and I always was looking at self to make me right before God. I was a slave and served Him as such. But then, oh blessed day it was, the Holy Spirit showed me that God wants sons and daughters, not slaves. He wants men and woman who have no righteousness of their own, but have Christ as their righteousness, and are unnited to Him by the Spirit.

Just so you know, Wesley wrote and preached much before he was converted, and interestinlgy enough he attributes his conversion to when he heard Martin Luther's preface to the Epistle of Paul to the Romans. Can you imagine that? a Reformed view of Christ is what helped Wesley see that God had done all in Christ.

Now I hope I do not step on too many toes here, but Arminian Theology runs the very path you are on, straight into a works baesd righteousness because they have the same view of Christ as the Roman system, in that Christ's death has made salvation possible, but man must apply it. Scripture speaks of a God who sovereignly pursues people, and brings them into what Christ has purchased for them. But then man has no basis to boast does he? that's the point.

Please remember the Scripture that asks the question, "who made you to differ. what hast thou that thou didst not receive? If thou didst receive it, then why do you boast?"

I believe sanctification is by faith not works... so did all the holines people. So I am not looking at self, I am looking to Christ fo Him to become my Sanctification.

What I recieve everday is by faith, not by Roman papal superstition, you be careful of your accusations.

No one here is diminishing Christ's work but rather exalting it, He is able to cleanse me from all sins and unrighteousness.

Christisking wrote:

Patrick please study before you answer things and accuse people of things...

Study what? - all you did was twist Wesley's words to try to prove your point - Wesley was taking about Christian perfection not the heresy of sinless perfection you were speaking of in your article.

What would suggest I study and what do you think I am accusing you of? - all I was doing is agree with the other posters and these other great men of God.

But like I said - we'll hash it out. ;-)

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Where am I twisting Wesley's words. I have clearly quoted what he has said. What part don't you agree on?

He is misguided in his doctrine like most Calvinist

I would like to hear how you can make a statement like this? Have you studied the ideals you are saying are wrong? I suppose you better not ever quote or read Edwards, Whitefield, Luther, Studd, or Carey then.

The greatest revival outside of Pentecost was the Reformation, and you would say that the men who preached Reformed doctrine were misguided?

You make the point that God says His people will be perfect, yet have you ever stopped to think that He meant in the Messiah?

If you can obey God perfectly, then why have any faith in Christ at all? or do you only need Him when you fail?

I boast my dear brother in the fact that I in myself am thouroughly wretched through and through. I make no pretenses about holiness in myself for even my good deeds are stained with sin, I cannot change the name of a sin so that it is not really a sin, and therefore maintain my ""sinlessness". But praise God for Christ!!! He lives in me, and it is no longer I but Christ, He presents me before the Father, He intercedes for me. His work alone is what allows me to come to God. Jesus Christ has been made sin for me that I might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Oh, and no I do not live a loose antinomian life as I now long toplease my Father from love, and realize that sanctification is a process of being made into the image of Christ.

P.S. Don't get angry with us, or you will be breaking your teaching ;-)

The funny thing is that no one up to this point has even read my article probably... :-D

Patrick please study before you answer things and accuse people of things...

Funny how you've got two Patricks here with ya, but you prolly didn't know that. I thought you were talking to me, maybe you were? :-(

roaringlamb wrote:

He is misguided in his doctrine like most Calvinist

I would like to hear how you can make a statement like this? Have you studied the ideals you are saying are wrong? I suppose you better not ever quote or read Edwards, Whitefield, Luther, Studd, or Carey then.

The greatest revival outside of Pentecost was the Reformation, and you would say that the men who preached Reformed doctrine were misguided?

You make the point that God says His people will be perfect, yet have you ever stopped to think that He meant in the Messiah?

If you can obey God perfectly, then why have any faith in Christ at all? or do you only need Him when you fail?

I boast my dear brother in the fact that I in myself am thouroughly wretched through and through. I make no pretenses about holiness in myself for even my good deeds are stained with sin, I cannot change the name of a sin so that it is not really a sin, and therefore maintain my ""sinlessness". But praise God for Christ!!! He lives in me, and it is no longer I but Christ, He presents me before the Father, He intercedes for me. His work alone is what allows me to come to God. Jesus Christ has been made sin for me that I might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Oh, and no I do not live a loose antinomian life as I now long toplease my Father from love, and realize that sanctification is a process of being made into the image of Christ.

P.S. Don't get angry with us, or you will be breaking your teaching ;-)

Thanks for the advice...

The Reformation the greatest revival?

I will not comment on that since it is off topic.

You mentioned that 'sanctification' is a process. I dont disagree with that. I am just saying there is a day when the process is complete, or perfect.

You dont believe that and neither do most Calvinists, they instruct you to kill sin, but it seems sin keeps resurrecting on them. But last time I checked Jesus rose from the dead and conquered sin and death and....

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I too believe in His work alone, but I believe that work includes freedom from all sin! Complete Sanctification! Glory!

I believe sanctification is by faith not works... so did all the holines people. So I am not looking at self, I am looking to Christ fo Him to become my Sanctification.

Yes, but why look for Him to become, when He is already?

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him(God) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, [b]and sanctification[/b], and redemption:
1Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Notice a couple things here-
1)Who put who in Christ?
2)What has Christ been made to those in Christ?

Brother I am not accusing, but just warning. Christ has purchased your salvation if you are regenerated. Notice this verse,
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Do you see, if you have been genuinely called, in God's eyes, it is finished(I think I've heard those words before :-) )

Where am I twisting Wesley's words. I have clearly quoted what he has said. What part don't you agree on?

all you did was twist Wesley's words to try to prove your point - Wesley was taking about Christian perfection not the heresy of sinless perfection you were speaking of in your article.

Here read some more what Wesley had to say

In his sermon called, “On Sin in Believers”, John Wesley comes against the Moravians for preaching a form of sinless perfection and driving weaker Christians into a mode of despondency and despair, rather than strengthening and encouraging their faith by which they could overcome such inward unholy tempers and emotions. Listen to his words in this sermon:

“And as this position, ‘There is no sin in a believer, no carnal mind, no bent to backsliding,’ is thus contrary to the word of God, so it is to the experience of his children. These continually feel an heart bent to backsliding; a natural tendency to evil; a proneness to depart from God, and cleave to the things of earth. They are daily sensible of sin remaining in their heart, -- pride, self-will, unbelief; and of sin cleaving to all they speak and do, even their best actions and holiest duties. Yet at the same time they ‘know that they are of God;’ they cannot doubt of it for a moment. They feel his Spirit clearly ‘witnessing with their spirit, that they are the children of God.’ They ‘rejoice in God through Christ Jesus, by whom they have now received the atonement.’ So that they are equally assured, that sin is in them, and that "Christ is in them the hope of glory."

"But can Christ be in the same heart where sin is?" Undoubtedly he can; otherwise it never could be saved therefrom. Where the sickness is, there is the Physician, Carrying on his work within, Striving till he cast out sin. Christ indeed cannot reign, where sin reigns; neither will he dwell where any sin is allowed. But he is and dwells in the heart of every believer, who is fighting against all sin; although it be not yet purified, according to the purification of the sanctuary.”

Wesley goes on to say a few paragraphs later, “We are ‘reconciled to God through the blood of the cross:’ And in that moment the jronhma sarkos, the corruption of nature, which is enmity with God, is put under our feet; the flesh has no more dominion over us. But it still exists; and it is still in its nature enmity with God, lusting against his Spirit… I do not suppose any man who is justified is a slave to sin: Yet I do suppose sin remains in all that are justified.”

In the summary of this sermon, Wesley concludes by saying, “The sum of all is this: There are in every person, even after he is justified, two contrary principles, nature and grace, termed by St. Paul the flesh and the Spirit. Hence, although even babes in Christ are sanctified, yet it is only in part. In a degree, according to the measure of their faith, they are spiritual; yet, in a degree they are carnal. Accordingly, believers are continually exhorted to watch against the flesh, as well as the world and the devil. And to this agrees the constant experience of the children of God. While they feel this witness in themselves, they feel a will not wholly resigned to the will of God. They know they are in him; and yet find an heart ready to depart from him, a proneness to evil in many instances, and a backwardness to that which is good. The contrary doctrine is wholly new; never heard of in the church of Christ, from the time of his coming into the world, till the time of Count Zinzendorf; and it is attended with the most fatal consequences. It cuts off all watching against our evil nature, against the Delilah which we are told is gone, though she is still lying in our bosom. It tears away the shield of weak believers, deprives them of their faith and so leaves them exposed to all the assaults of the world, the flesh, and the devil.”

“Let us, therefore, hold fast the sound doctrine ‘once delivered to the saints,’ and delivered down by them with the written word to all succeeding generations: That although we are renewed, cleansed, purified, sanctified, the moment we truly believe in Christ, yet we are not then renewed, cleansed, purified altogether; but the flesh, the evil nature, still remains (though subdued) and wars against the Spirit. So much the more let us use all diligence in ‘fighting the good fight of faith.’ So much the more earnestly let us ‘watch and pray’ against the enemy within. The more carefully let us take to ourselves, and "put on, the whole armor of God;" that, although ‘we wrestle’ both ‘with flesh, and blood, and with the principalities, and with powers, and wicked spirits in high places,’ we may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” (End of Wesley Quotations)

Obviously, not even did John Wesley, a prince among holiness preachers, believe in any form of sinless perfection. To the contrary, he clearly and unmistakably preached against it and corrected others who fell into this error.

But what Wesley preached is not really relevant - I still stand with all of the rest of the posters along with the other great men of God I quote who also disagree.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

roaringlamb wrote:

I believe sanctification is by faith not works... so did all the holines people. So I am not looking at self, I am looking to Christ fo Him to become my Sanctification.

Yes, but why look for Him to become, when He is already?

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him(God) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, [b]and sanctification[/b], and redemption:
1Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Notice a couple things here-
1)Who put who in Christ?
2)What has Christ been made to those in Christ?

Brother I am not accusing, but just warning. Christ has purchased your salvation if you are regenerated. Notice this verse,
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Do you see, if you have been genuinely called, in God's eyes, it is finished(I think I've heard those words before :-) )

I have heard those words before and they apply to perfect holiness as well...

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Don't get angry with us, or you will be breaking your teaching ;-)

Not really - he does not even claim to have achieved his own teaching - only to know some people who claim that they have. :-o

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Christisking wrote:

Where am I twisting Wesley's words. I have clearly quoted what he has said. What part don't you agree on?

all you did was twist Wesley's words to try to prove your point - Wesley was taking about Christian perfection not the heresy of sinless perfection you were speaking of in your article.

Here read some more what Wesley had to say

In his sermon called, “On Sin in Believers”, John Wesley comes against the Moravians for preaching a form of sinless perfection and driving weaker Christians into a mode of despondency and despair, rather than strengthening and encouraging their faith by which they could overcome such inward unholy tempers and emotions. Listen to his words in this sermon:

“And as this position, ‘There is no sin in a believer, no carnal mind, no bent to backsliding,’ is thus contrary to the word of God, so it is to the experience of his children. These continually feel an heart bent to backsliding; a natural tendency to evil; a proneness to depart from God, and cleave to the things of earth. They are daily sensible of sin remaining in their heart, -- pride, self-will, unbelief; and of sin cleaving to all they speak and do, even their best actions and holiest duties. Yet at the same time they ‘know that they are of God;’ they cannot doubt of it for a moment. They feel his Spirit clearly ‘witnessing with their spirit, that they are the children of God.’ They ‘rejoice in God through Christ Jesus, by whom they have now received the atonement.’ So that they are equally assured, that sin is in them, and that "Christ is in them the hope of glory."

"But can Christ be in the same heart where sin is?" Undoubtedly he can; otherwise it never could be saved therefrom. Where the sickness is, there is the Physician, Carrying on his work within, Striving till he cast out sin. Christ indeed cannot reign, where sin reigns; neither will he dwell where any sin is allowed. But he is and dwells in the heart of every believer, who is fighting against all sin; although it be not yet purified, according to the purification of the sanctuary.”

Wesley goes on to say a few paragraphs later, “We are ‘reconciled to God through the blood of the cross:’ And in that moment the jronhma sarkos, the corruption of nature, which is enmity with God, is put under our feet; the flesh has no more dominion over us. But it still exists; and it is still in its nature enmity with God, lusting against his Spirit… I do not suppose any man who is justified is a slave to sin: Yet I do suppose sin remains in all that are justified.”

In the summary of this sermon, Wesley concludes by saying, “The sum of all is this: There are in every person, even after he is justified, two contrary principles, nature and grace, termed by St. Paul the flesh and the Spirit. Hence, although even babes in Christ are sanctified, yet it is only in part. In a degree, according to the measure of their faith, they are spiritual; yet, in a degree they are carnal. Accordingly, believers are continually exhorted to watch against the flesh, as well as the world and the devil. And to this agrees the constant experience of the children of God. While they feel this witness in themselves, they feel a will not wholly resigned to the will of God. They know they are in him; and yet find an heart ready to depart from him, a proneness to evil in many instances, and a backwardness to that which is good. The contrary doctrine is wholly new; never heard of in the church of Christ, from the time of his coming into the world, till the time of Count Zinzendorf; and it is attended with the most fatal consequences. It cuts off all watching against our evil nature, against the Delilah which we are told is gone, though she is still lying in our bosom. It tears away the shield of weak believers, deprives them of their faith and so leaves them exposed to all the assaults of the world, the flesh, and the devil.”

“Let us, therefore, hold fast the sound doctrine ‘once delivered to the saints,’ and delivered down by them with the written word to all succeeding generations: That although we are renewed, cleansed, purified, sanctified, the moment we truly believe in Christ, yet we are not then renewed, cleansed, purified altogether; but the flesh, the evil nature, still remains (though subdued) and wars against the Spirit. So much the more let us use all diligence in ‘fighting the good fight of faith.’ So much the more earnestly let us ‘watch and pray’ against the enemy within. The more carefully let us take to ourselves, and "put on, the whole armor of God;" that, although ‘we wrestle’ both ‘with flesh, and blood, and with the principalities, and with powers, and wicked spirits in high places,’ we may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” (End of Wesley Quotations)

Obviously, not even did John Wesley, a prince among holiness preachers, believe in any form of sinless perfection. To the contrary, he clearly and unmistakably preached against it and corrected others who fell into this error.

But what Wesley preached is not really relevant - I still stand with all of the rest of the posters along with the other great men of God I quote who also disagree.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

How many other of Wesley's sermons have you read Patrick? Be honest... because as I stated. A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect....

This Wesley can speak for himself. When he was asked what sanctification was...

"QUESTION. What is it to be sanctified?

"ANSWER. To be renewed in the image of God, 'in righteousness and true holiness.'

"Q. What is implied in being a perfect Christian?

"A. The loving God with all our heart, and mind, and soul. (Deut. 6:5.)

"Q. Does this imply, that all inward sin is taken away?

"A. Undoubtedly; or how can we be Said to be 'saved from all 'our uncleannesses?' (Ezek. 36:29.)"

Please take the time to read these articles.
[url=http://www.lgmarshall.org/Arminianism/topladywesleycontroversy.html]Toplady Wesley Controversy[/url]

How many other of Wesley's sermons have you read Patrick?

I don't know for sure - but I would have to say at least two to three dozen - But what Wesley preached is not really relevant - I still stand with all of the rest of the posters along with the other great men of God I quote who also disagree.

I stated. A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect

No that is not what you said - at this point it seems as though you really don't understand what you believe yourself - what you stated was:

When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

But that does not prove that he was not perfect.

[b]and I said:[/b]

This makes no sense at all and is completely contradictory in nature - to say one was perfect (entire sanctification) and then sins after entire sanctification and then is entirely sanctified again and then sins angina and then again is entirely sanctified and back and forth... the statement condemns itself.. there really isn't much more to say

A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect

and

When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

:-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-?

You are now contradicting yourself. Oh well, like I said we will hash this out in person :-) I am done for the night - I will check back in the morning.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Christisking wrote:

How many other of Wesley's sermons have you read Patrick?

I don't know for sure - but I would have to say at least two to three dozen - But what Wesley preached is not really relevant - I still stand with all of the rest of the posters along with the other great men of God I quote who also disagree.

I stated. A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect

No that is not what you said - at this point it seems as though you really don't understand what you believe yourself - what you stated was:

When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

But that does not prove that he was not perfect.

[b]and I said:[/b]

This makes no sense at all and is completely contradictory in nature - to say one was perfect (entire sanctification) and then sins after entire sanctification and then is entirely sanctified again and then sins angina and then again is entirely sanctified and back and forth... the statement condemns itself.. there really isn't much more to say

A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect

and

When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

:-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-?

You are now contradicting yourself. Oh well, like I said we will hash this out in person :-) I am done for the night - I will check back in the morning.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

wesley is the one that stated that one can fall from entire sanctification. I just agreed with him. But the purpose of entire sanctity is not to fall, but if one does you are able to be renewed until you are established in it...

Brother Giancarlo wrote:

2. I have yet to attain entire sanctification, but I believe God will do that work in me.

How can one teach about something that the Lord has not taught him?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:
Brother Giancarlo wrote:

2. I have yet to attain entire sanctification, but I believe God will do that work in me.

How can one teach about something that the Lord has not taught him?

In Christ
Jeff

Then you can't teach on glorification!

That is really bad logic, very absurd

Paul knew of things before they ever become realitites, so did the prophets.

Christ being our sanctification, He is the only part of us that is perfect and will not sin. That Part is perfect, The flesh is not. The flesh can only be perfect in the day of resurrection. When the Flesh sins the Spirit of Christ in us does not and can not. If we sin it is our flesh that sins and we have an Advocate: 1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ

1 John 5:10-12 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Sin of the flesh: 1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. and forgiveness of the sin of the flesh. The Spirit of Christ does not sin in us.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Christ our sanctification and our perfection and our entire sanctification. Not self works.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In Christ: Phillip

I believe in Jesus as my sanctification...
but that sanctification is not just theoritical but very real.

Brother Giancarlo wrote:

Paul knew of things before they ever become realitites, so did the prophets.

I am sorry brother for saying it in the way I did.

It's just that maturity in the Lord comes from brokeness. A brokeness that comes from the Lord teaching us how we fail to love Him and one another.

I can only teach about the things that I have learned by walking with the Lord. And I know that I fall short in ways I don't even know. These ways are made known to us in His time, in His perfect way.

The maturity spoken of in Scripture speaks to growing in love with God and the fellowship of believers. Anything less than agape love is sin.

In Christ
Jeff

forevidence,two things 1] Paul called himself the chief of sinners
[2 When Jesus said "tarry in jerusalem untill you are endued with power" did that help them in thier "battle for purity"?
.......David

somethings I'm thinking of, please have mercy upon me for my lack of knowledge in these things.

When people say to me we can not get entire sanctification in this life, to me that is to say indirect that

a. What Jesus did on the cross was not enough.

b. That to try and live a holy life is just stupid because we can never get to the mark anyway

c. the devils power to keep a man in sin is stronger then Gods power to sanctify a man.

this is just some problems i have concerning that man can not be entirely sanctified, can someone please teach me about this, im most curius about it, from what i find all through the bible is that

Romans 8:3 For what the law [b]could not do[/b], in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law [b]might be fulfilled in us[/b], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Christ’s work on the cross is a finished work. It destroyed the power and penalty of sin. Power meaning bondage, and penalty meaning death, physical and spiritual.

1.\tIf a man is in bondage to sin then, I would question his salvation ( and I say this with a very timid heart) for a man in bondage is a man with no hope. But a man, who truly knows of the Savoir, has a hope that “ sin will not have dominion over him” Rom 6:14, sin shall not be his master. The Christian is no longer in captivity. So when his old master calls he does not have to obey his harsh voice any more. So when sin becomes real issue in a Christian’s life, Our faith turns to our Risen Lord who destroyed sin on cross and set us free. Proverbs 24:16 For a just man fall seven times, and riseth up again. We rise up because we know we don’t have to stay on ground in bondage any longer. Christ has lead the captives out of captivity. Again in the gospels Christ says to “ pick up your cross Daily” why? so we can die daily…, for when sin comes up( which it will) , the Christian must go down to his death with Christ in identification with Him. All the time knowing victory awaits him. Our flesh and this world are corrupt and that’s what makes us groan for Christ’s return to finally be set free of our earthly bodies of sinful corruption. (ROM 8)

2.\tPower over physical death. Physical death is a reaction to Adams sin. The penalty for his sin. And the cross dealt with this: But Christians still die, does that mean they were not Christians? By No Means. Does that mean that the power of the cross is weak in dealing with the punishment of sin?, God forbid. Our resurrection and glorification will prove that the work on the cross was a sufficient antidote for our death. So just because a Christian sins, does not prove the work of Christ on his cross weak.

jimdied2sin wrote:

Now some have labored long and hard to overthrow the saints’ holy faith by exclaiming that this passage

of scripture is proof that a perfect sinless life is not possible on this green earth.

Brother, perhaps you should remove yourself from your position at sermon index then, based on Gregs view on this matter? (which is avaialable by searching the forums or google) What fellowship have you with such men? Also, beware of Andrew, Josef and Patrick as those wolves move into your neighborhood to "spare not your flock"...

Seriously bro, you seem to be making sensational comments to strengthen your position, but when questioned directly you seem to contradict yourself a bit?

I would rather choose the latter: to believe God is able o remove all unrighteousness in my heart, mind, soul, and body. Such faith would not be beyond what the Bible says. Jesus Himself told me to be holy as He is holy

It seems clear that from the rest of the scriptures in this epistle that he believes sin is of the devil and the Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil; that in Him there is not sin, and he who abides in Him does not sin!

Why then have you not "achieved" this sinless perfection yet, a lack of faith, are you secretly holding onto things of this world that prevent the work of the Spirit to be completed in your heart? Holding the light of this doctrine and yet not entering in, would not you be damning yourself by sinning against such great light?

I suppose the riverside fellowship is full of false converts... having sinned once after procalaimng salvation would render them all frauds then???? What are you really saying here brother?

No, when God heals, He heals to the uttermost removing all leprosy, and when God saves He saves to the uttermost.

Again brother, what evil has beset you that you have not entered into your sinless perfection, that is being saved to the uttermost as you would correlate the two?

I would like to encourage all those who are defenders and diligent studiers of truth to really look into this verse for themselves and that they be more noble minded like the Bereans, and to not just take carnal men’s doctrines to confine them under sin their whole lives

Brother - I am walking free from any known/willful form of sin. I have spent the last year+ in close fellowship with Josef and Patrick as well, and as much as could be said about anyone based on fruit so are they. You are trying to create a false dichotomy and clump all those who disagree with your view into the camp of "carnal christians". Anyone can look up the preaching from Detroit on youtube and see that this is laughable in light of the message preached in Detroit and the Spirit bearing witness to it.

I would like to challenge you again, on using these senstational words of yours.

1) Either you dont really believe them

or

2) You are compromising by associating with Greg, Andrew, Josef and Patrick...

I am not saying this to back you in a corner but your own words have done just that... please consider this.

In Christ - Jim

Now first of all I wrote this article to refute all those who misuse this scripture in I John, not just Greg, Andrew, and Patrick.

Yes, I feel a burden to protect the flock in which God has made me an overseer in, and anybody that preaachers contrary to the true doctrine of holiness.

One can fall into carnal doctrines by listening to carnal teachings from carnal men. Even spiritual perfect Christians must always take heed and watch.

Also...

Me entering into Canaan and the promises of the God could be for variosu reasons, it could be sin and I would openly admit that if God showed me that or of any brother showed me any sin in my life.

But I should be there, and their are no excuses for it is by faith. He is able, but sometimes He makes us wait.

Many holiness people called the entire sanctification issue a 'crises experience.' This where most of our fellowship including me are at, we are looking for and longing for the day where all sin, including indwelling sin are gone and we have nothing in our hearts but love.

I dont know what is wrong with us as humans in wanting to see someone fail and fall into sin, just to prove it is not possible to live without sin.

Just like before Israel entered in the promised land, their were spies who had tasted and seen the land was good, but many other would not enter because of unbelief, so they were all detained. God made CAleb, and Joshua wait 40 years until they entered.

Perhaps the reason I have not entered into this land of holiness is because there is so much of an atmosphere of unbelief that God has not let any of us in.

God wants a bride without spot and blemish not just parts and members of His bride.

Intens4Him wrote:
I may be way off base here and have totally misunderstood what you wrote (since I'm just poking my head in) but....

Forevidence wrote:
I believe in Jesus as my sanctification...
but that sanctification is not just theoritical but very real.

Playing the devil's advocate (bad choice of words I know, here of all places! LOL)... By what you previously wrote how can you?

Forevidence wrote:

Have you been glorified yet?

Then you can't teach on glorification!

That is really bad logic, very absurd

(Just so you know, I believe in sanctification). My question is by what you previously wrote... If you have not been 100% sanctified yet, how can you teach on it?

I tried to use that issue of glorification as an example and I guess it did not work.

You can teach on things you have not experienced, just like glorification. You can only speculate and teach what the bible says on it. Likewise I have only seen and tasted a bit of what it must be like, but have not entered yet. But the Bible clearly thunders it from OT ot NT.

sscott wrote:

Many holiness people called the entire sanctification issue a 'crises experience.'

I have a book by T.A. Hegre called "The Cross and Sanctification". He talks about this "crisis experience" as well. I need to go back an reread it...it's been a long time. He was the Founder of Bethany College of Missions. Leonard Ravenhill wrote a forward to his book.

Thanks brother for that insight.

You can only speculate and teach what the bible says on it.

So your are only teaching speculations - boy, I am glad to hear that - at least now there is some hope for you ;-) I guess when you have arrived at this imaginary state of sinless perfection then you can teach on it - until then as you said it is mere speculation. Your glorification example is faulty because no one has obtained glorification is is still able to preach on - rather it is like someone preaching repentance who has not yet repented or some preaching justification who has yet to be justified.

Do you know anyone who claims to reach this point of sinlessness and claims to be on par with the glory of God? If so who?

The Bible thunders against such doctrines as sinless perfection as you teach it all throughout the old and new testaments.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Your point is excellent Jim - I guess Giancarlo will have to forbid all of the saints in Riverside from reading the Old Paths and articles written and published by men such as Greg Gordon who in his opinion are:

1) overthrowing the saints’ holy faith
2) creating a stumbling block for those who are on the highway of holiness.
3) possible antinomians
4) apostate teachers who go forth to discourage and poison the minds of sincere believers
5) They do not the workings of power of the holy ghost
6) Misuse and misunderstand the scripture as in this case
7)propogating carnal men’s doctrines

:-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Christisking wrote:

You can only speculate and teach what the bible says on it.

So your are only teaching speculations - boy, I am glad to hear that - at least now there is some hope for you ;-) I guess when you have arrived at this imaginary state of sinless perfection then you can teach on it - until then as you said it is mere speculation. Your glorification example is faulty because no one has obtained glorification is is still able to preach on - rather it is like someone preaching repentance who has not yet repented or some preaching justification who has yet to be justified.

Do you know anyone who claims to reach this point of sinlessness and claims to be on par with the glory of God? If so who?

The Bible thunders against such doctrines as sinless perfection as you teach it all throughout the old and new testaments.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

No I didnt say it was speculation(doctrine of Sanctification) it is as real as real can be, but I can only speculate on it.

Others have entered that blessed state and have written volumes on it, one of them is the Apostle John and Apostle Paul, they knew what it was to have 1 Cor. 13.

So Patrick have you ever preach on something you have not completely entered into or experienced? Like the Judgment Seat of Christ perhaps? Yes.. you have not actually experienced it just yet and wont for a long time if the Lord grants you more life, but you can clearly preach it, and I have hear you and you have done good job at it ;-)

That is how I preach sanctification. Even though I have not entered that blessed rest/ I can also preach on healinh even though I personally have never been healed, so can you so can all true saints.

Christisking wrote:
Your point is excellent Jim - I guess Giancarlo will have to forbid all of the saints in Riverside from reading the Old Paths and articles written and published by men such as Greg Gordon who in his opinion are:

1) overthrowing the saints’ holy faith
2) creating a stumbling block for those who are on the highway of holiness.
3) possible antinomians
4) apostate teachers who go forth to discourage and poison the minds of sincere believers
5) They do not the workings of power of the holy ghost
6) Misuse and misunderstand the scripture as in this case
7)propogating carnal men’s doctrines

:-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

What are you talking about?

If you publish anything that is what you think your view is I will not at all stop you from doing that. I am not a tyrant my friend, the saints are able to read whateve they like.

But....

When their is a bad exposition I will point it out

When People are trying to lay stumbling block I will try to remove it

When people are being mislead into any forms even subtle forms of Antinomianism I will raise my voice

When people who are apostates like Antinomious or Falcius and the Gnostics I will come them apostates

When people don't see all the Power of God through the Holy Spirit in sanctification or in tongues I will speak out, just like McArthur who denies both, he knows not the scripture nor the power of God

When people are propagating carnal men's doctrine I will speak out as well, even if it comes from this ministry or any other

I believe in what Wesley referred to as "entire sanctification" and believe it's scriptural. It is interesting to note that William Seymour preached on "entire sanctification" before he entered into Canaan land. Here's a series of MP3 on Azusa Street that those who are interested in should prayerfully consider: [url=http://parbarwestward.org/Audio/Jim_Kerwin/Rejected_Blessing_Interviews.php]"The Rejected Blessing" interviews[/url].

I believe the stumbling block for many is on this issue of "sinless perfection" and am reminded by what Reader Harris said some years ago

"The proper field for discussion is not whether or not any individual Christian lives unintermittently without committing sin. That is a matter between his own conscience and God and he is not called upon to give account of himself in this respect to his fellowmen. What we ought to discuss is this: Has God made or has He not made an adequate provide for complete deliverance in this life from any sin? To argue that God has made an adequate provision, but that, for some reason or other, no Christian ever receives the benefit of it, is really to prove that is inadequate and therefore useless."

Here's a couple of questions and answers that John Wesley answered regarding "entire sanctification":

Q. What is implied in being a perfect Christian?

A. The loving God with all our heart, and mind, and soul. (Deut. 6:5.)

Q. Does this imply, that all inward sin is taken away?

A. Undoubtedly; or how can we be Said to be `saved from all `our uncleannesses?' (Ezek. 36:29.)

Q. When may a person judge himself to have attained this?

A. When, after having been fully convinced of inbred sin, by a far deeper and clearer conviction than that he experienced before justification, and after having experienced a gradual mortification of it, he experiences a total death to sin, and an entire renewal in the love and image of God, so as to rejoice evermore, to pray without ceasing, and in everything to give thanks. Not that `to feel all love and no sin' is a sufficient proof. Several have experienced this for a time, before their souls were fully renewed. None therefore ought to believe that the work is done, till there is added the testimony of the Spirit, witnessing his entire sanctification, as clearly as his justification.

I pray that Jesus will answer the cries of your heart and of your fellowship Forevidence. As for me personally, I can't say the work is finished. Why would you ask is this not so? The Lord has painfully been dealing with "my ways" and have been freed in part but not in the whole. The work of the Holy Spirit unveils the ways of the human heart and they begin to change as we repent and forsake our ways.

The real holiness preachers of old believed that sanctification was by faith. It's only something that the blood of Jesus can do in our hearts but experientially it's real and many sisters and brothers lives have borne fruit of this.

I'm not suggesting by these quotes that someone is not a Christian because they are not "entirely sanctified." Wesley didn't claim this either and it's very clear in the sermon "The More Excellent Way" which I believe someone cited.

May the name of Jesus be lifted up and may He have His in our hearts and in our lives.

AMEN GianCarlo.

Just a couple of things - nowhere in all of holiness literature will you find a single quote that says believers are not susceptible to sin. Of course every human that has breath in their bodies are susceptible to sin.

So when you use a mans quote, saying because he says we are susceptible to sin, he is teaching your stance, you fall into great error; not only that you called him a "great man of God" - kowing there is no such thing, and ironically the man whose quote you used preaches against such terminology and tells you that if you use that term their is something drastically wrong with your theology, and we can know that right away.

Anyhow, no one has said we are not susceptible, just called to a life of victory. the suceptibility is swallowed up in the gace of God, not making us immune to sin, but rather making us fear God and loathe sin, and therefore living a repentant life - which is a life of freedom from sin.

After all, what is the logical conclusion of repenting from all sin? Is it not living free from all sin? This is not prideful, pride is a sin, and if you are free from sin you are free from pride. This is not boasting in anything save Jesus Christ, the saviour who saves to the uttermost.

Just to let you know, Patrick, Josef, etc. - I love you brothers alot, I look forward to meeting you in SoCal, I would be honoured if you attended a meeting, but please watch your words when you deal with faithful brethren - It seems you are quick to accuse with harsh words, very harsh words, even some words that can condemn you if they are found to be unfounded. Just a brief exhortation.

And to let you know, I am nigh calvinist, I wouldnt call myself one, but doctrinally I almost fall their, and I believe the doctrine of righteousness, and living a righteous life before God, anything less is simply slander to God's grace; that teaches us to deny ungoldiness and worldly lusts, and live righteously, soberly and godly in this world. Does not our God desire complete obedience? If you say no, then just how much disobedience does our God allow?

Yours in service to Jesus Christ,
Evan

Does not our God desire complete obedience? If you say no, then just how much disobedience does our God allow?

Certainly we never have permission to disobey God. Goes does not allow [i]any[/i] disobedience whatsoever.

The questions then become; what is the recourse if a Christian sins? What is a 'sin' in the first place?

Most would say that a 'sin' is an act of disobedience to the known will of God. Yet sin means to miss the mark also- so as not to achieve the prize. To sin is to [i]fall short of the glory of God[/i]. Sin is when we fail in the purpose of our existence- to be a perfect representation of God in the earth.

There is also the concept of 'trespassing' that is linked to sin. In fact, there are many ways of defining sin in Old Testament Hebrew (sin was made greatly sensitized) - with only a handfull in the NT. Every willful transgression is an act of rebellion .

There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There were 365 'don'ts' (neg) in the Old Testament and 248 'do's' (pos) with 613 laws in all. The Law demands absolute righteousness, in word and deed, in thought and intention, in all obedience, love, and devotion. When sin is found it requires payment of the debt, not only to "the uttermost farthing," but as McClintock says- in coin in which there is no trace of alloy.

As I mentioned on the other thread, the great challenge is the practical application of the known will of God to the endlessly diversified and complicated events and circumstances of daily life. Right and wrong often overlap, in that we cannot tell whether we ought to show mercy or execute a sentence. We are confounded by passages that tell us to judge not that we be not judged and others that require us put away from us a wicked person. We are pressed upon by conscience to uphold convictions when they conflict with a fellow believer and wot not whether to part company or remain in league. Case in point, Paul and Barnabas and the issue of John Mark. Errors of judgment lead to errors in action; error begets error.

Often when the smoke clears there is but one certainty- that I am [u]not[/u] perfect. If I had perfect knowledge, I would be none the better, as I had not the perfect wisdom to apply that knowledge. And if I had perfect wisdom I had not the power to make effectual the application. I come away with one certainty- I am [u]not[/u] perfect.

If I find myself in such a state that I am walking in what I believe to be the perfect will of God with no real desire to sin- not even as much a the draw of temptation- I am assured that it is the Holy Spirit propping me up. If I know such a state for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year, or a decade I must know in my heart it is the underpinning and [i]hedge[/i] of the Holy Spirit. If God would remove the hedge- I had seen myself afresh as I am.

Therefore, the challenge in times of victory is to be honest about my state lest I get puffed up and God resist me. If I begin to look upon myself as if I were my own cause of holiness I will surely stumble. If I look with disdain upon sinners in need of repentance, having forgotten that I was once purged from my own sins- God will surely resist me. The best claim I ought to make is that there are no present [i]controversies[/i] between me and God. If there are no controversies and my conscience lay quiet- I must rightly define my estate. From this will I deduce that I am perfect- even as Christ? Nay verily! All it means is that there are no present controversies between me and God. To call this perfection is, to me, the grossest of over-exaggerations and will almost certainly incline me to pride, which, will bring destruction and a fall.

If we will walk in [i]humility[/i] in the times of victory we will have victory- there is no other way. God resists the proud and you cannot walk in victory in your own power.

dear breathern...and sisteren (lol is that a word?)

i have read some good arguments for entire sanctification on this forum and some ok arguements from the opposite view... and i kinda of got sick of reading theology on this forum...cuz im under the impression that God is SIMPLE! and with that mind set this is how i come to the conlusion that entire sanctification or sinless perfection is possible...

ALL POWERFUL GOD WHO CAN DO ANYTHING! "Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked on them and said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
+
the impossiblity of living sin free!
+
Gods Will is for me to be Holy "1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification, for you to abstain from fornication"
+
and God LOVES ME ALOT!
=
me being sin free
(anthing thats call sin, including known sin, unknown sin, floating sin, thunder sin, sin i think i might have but really dont but maybe i do sin, the sin that gets stuck in between your teeth, and of course nis [nis is just sin backwards lol]) forver =] isnt that great guys.

so it just comes down to it...

do you have enough faith?

can you BELIEVE!

now time to give some shout outs!

to the fam in riverside: what up my ppl!
to the fam in texas (is that where jesse is at?): greetings my brother! and thank you for helping my brother defend the faith of old! =]
to the fam in detriot: much love for you guys but i hope that a hacker has hacked your account and its not really you saying this things but some demon possed hacker...love hopes all things..really hopes....like alot hopes...

and to anyone i may not personally know but are part of the redeemed! hi!

- jose

A) All your premises are Wrong this is why....

1) God has not failed, He has saved us, and we are holy, we are perfecting holiness( !Cor 7:1)
2) Jesus never begins a work He never finishes Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
-Jesus has not failed His work at all here, He is just not done with the work
3) Jesus it is His will that we enter, this very day He can perform the miracle,. We can all enter the promised Land this very day, but as I said and gave an example Joshua and Caleb were delayed from entering the promised land because of others unbelief. Maybe your unbelief has hindred us from ALL entering in together-Jim

B) All Sister Erica was saying was that Jesus was without sin in any way and we are to partake of HIS Holiness, so if Jesus had no indwelling or outward sin, then this scripure is promising that we will be partaking of His holiness. Jesus holiness given to us and being worked out in us isentire sanctification, it is perfect holiness No contradiction at all

C) That is no contradication at all. Holy angels that are and were completely sanctified in the very presence of God, sinned because they have a free will. Christian Perfection destroys all sin, not human will. Jesus lived a sinless life and had the very real possibilty of sinning but did no sin! Why? Not because of inability, but because He resisted.

A perfect Christian has pefect faith, perfect hope, and perfect love, that is the difference between what you are saying. Holiness is good and is the noraml Christian live, but the point is perfecting holiness!

D) I disagree with what you are saying here, Most of our readers now exactly what is going, it is not one sided.

Josef is wrongly applying Christian Perfection upon those who preach it, saying that all who preach as we preach live in self-rigteousness and condemnation, but that is not the case here. Some may fall into it because they do not know what they are talking about. Once again our concerns are shared with Josef, but his exposition and premises are wrong, He is misusing scriputre and misrepresenting holiness preachers like Wesley and all the Methodists, and those who believe they can live free from all sin.

Psalm 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults.

That is a great scripture proves that all unknown sin can be forgiven and removed completey when God shows them.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

jimdied2sin wrote:

2) Jesus never begins a work He never finishes Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Giancarlo- sorry for doing duel postings on consuming-fire... Ill go back to SI strictlye for now.

Are you saying that any saint (born again, living without any known sin in there life, perfecting holiness) who dies without becoming "sinlessy perfect" is a failed work of Christ?

In Him - Jim

Well, a person who dies in sin and unsanctifed would die as an apostate and a Rebel against God....

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 [b]For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end[/b];
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

It applies to sanctification in that they were deliver from Egypt(world) and Pharoah(the devil) and they would not give up their sin and unbelief so God refused them entrance to the promised land. So we partake with Christ only if we remain steadfast to the end.

doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooode!!!!!!!!

=/

jimmy dude ur like not understanding...its like we write something, and it makes sense, then you read it and then CRASH! not getting it. its elementary my dear jim.

jim can you tell me what the fellowship in riverside believes about entire sanctification. and can you also explain to me the logic that is used to come to that conclusion.

si or no?

QUESTION ASKED TO GIANCARLO:
"Are you saying that any saint (born again, living without any known sin in there life, perfecting holiness) who dies without becoming "sinlessy perfect" is a failed work of Christ?"

GIANCARLO's REPLY:
"Well, a person who dies in sin and unsanctifed would die as an apostate and a Rebel against God...."

WELL THEN - MY QUESTION TO GIANCARLO:
Does that mean if you personally are not sanctified in this way by the end of your life,
Giancarlo, then you will go to hell?

Are you saying you would be an apostate and a
rebel against God?

-Andrew.

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

I really need a direct answer to my question, Giancarlo, because it is really at the heart of this whole dispute. We need you to answer this yourself, if possible, rather than just posting Scriptures without comment.

I am very sorry to be so blunt about it, but this point is so important that we really need a direct reply in your own words. Here is the question again-

JIM'S QUESTION ASKED TO GIANCARLO:
"Are you saying that any saint (born again, living without any known sin in there life, perfecting holiness) who dies without becoming "sinlessy perfect" is a failed work of Christ?"

GIANCARLO's REPLY:
"Well, a person who dies in sin and unsanctifed would die as an apostate and a Rebel against God...."

WELL THEN - MY QUESTION TO GIANCARLO:
Does that mean if you personally are not sanctified in this way by the end of your life,
Giancarlo, then you will go to hell?

Are you saying you would be an apostate and a
rebel against God?

-Andrew.

What does the scripture say? I think God says it best...

In other words, you have no answer to this simple question? -It is at the very crux of the dispute here, and yet you have no answer?

-Andrew.

Heb 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

38. agiasmov hagiasmos, hag-ee-as-mos'

from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

sscott wrote:
Giancarlo,

Correct me if I'm wrong. You said you have not arrived at this state (sinless). So if you died today you would go to hell as an apostate. Right?

If so...what are you doing moderating these forums or speaking on anything as one who is currently hell bound?

(If I'm misunderstand what you are saying please forgive me).

~sscott

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [b]work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.[/b]
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

“If the Apostle John was stating that he too was in sin, then indwelling sin has become the inspiration of this text and not the Holy Ghost. Holy men wrote the Holy Scriptures! Not unholy prideful men struggling with sin who called themselves apostles. Such ministers would be ministers of so called righteousness, when they are nothing but devils in a false light. No the scripture says, “holy” men!” By G.A. Jarquin

Moses – writer of the 1st 5 books of the bible – was kept out of the promise land because of he did not believe and hallow God’s name. Numbers20:11-12

David- writer of most of the Psalms- committed adultery, murder, took a census on account of being tempted by the devil, and moved the ark of God wrongly, which caused a man to die.

Solomon- writer of proverbs. Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes- allowed other gods to be worshipped in Israel, including molech, in which, children were sacrificed to that idol.

Peter- writer of 1st and 2nd Peter- “did not walk uprightly according to the truth of the gospel” Galatians 2:11-14

Paul- writer of most the new testament- says “For I know that in me ( that is in my flesh ) dwelleth no good thing..” Rom 7:18

.. so are these writers “devils” because they had sinned or had sin in the after they were called by God? G.A. Jarquin claim is as wrong as wrong can be! “ God uses the weak things of the world to confound the wise.” If God had to wait for men to be perfect so they could write the Holy Bible , we would have nothing to read.. and would still be waiting…..

love andy

how can God command me to keep his commandments when he know i do not have that ability?

i do believe we can keep his commandments,but so many say we cant.... or I'm i missing something?

and what does this verse mean if not exactly what it says?

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

I've posted an article written by the Holiness preacher named A.M. Hills (that is actually posed here). He actually entered into this, so he could attest to it both doctrinally and experientially. Among his contemporaries who preached this and walked it out were G.C. Bevington (one of the first students at God's Bible School in Cincinnati) and Oswald Chambers, a fellow instructor for a few years at the same institution.

On a personal note, I would have found the topic insulting and would have been quite offended to read the article below. Having spent a significant amount of time, reading, praying and seeking God, as well as reading many of the holiness classics has led me to reconsider my previously held views during the last couple of years.

Holiness Rejected Makes Strange Bedfellows by Aaron (A.M. Hills)

In my rounds in many states I have observed a remarkable spirit of union and fraternity among people who seemingly would have no bond of union whatever. Here are the conflicting theories of these separate classes.

1. There are those who proclaim very openly that there is no such thing as sanctification. It is a state impossible of attainment. The devil puts his finger to his nose at this announcement, and all the giddy and backslidden of earth nod their assent, and the tides of worldliness and sin roll on "merry as a marriage bell."

2. Another group rise and declare that they "got it all at conversion." Satan indulges in a little broader smile, and every imp of the pit is delighted, and all their confederates in the dead churches are serenely happy over the between class No. 1 and class No. 2.

3. Another company testify that they are of the opinion that somehow they must have missed it at conversion; but they hope they are growing into it, or would at least like to do so. Beelzebub, at this, laughs audibly; his confederates in the pit join in, and class No. 1 and class No. 2 open their ranks to welcome class No. 3. They all clasp hands and, without the slightest sense of inconsistency, sing, "How pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity and love!"

4. Another large throng say that sanctification is a good thing, that would be very convenient to have around, if we could only get it in this life. It would truly be just the thing to help us through the tight places of our earthly pilgrimage. But the inbred sin of our natures is so deep-seated that the blood of Christ cannot reach it, nor the fire of the Spirit-baptism consume it. Therefore we must wait until the great physician, death, purges our hearts of the Satan loose a peal of laughter that makes the wreathing clouds of the ascending smoke of torment tremble with the waves of jubilant sound. All the demons of the pit join in to swell the chorus. All the careless and the backslidden of earth stop their card playing and dancing long enough to make a motion that classes No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3 admit class No. 4 into fraternity. It carries unanimously, and they all join in singing, "The fellowship of kindred minds is like to that above."

5. A still larger throng rise and say "Yes, sanctification is a good thing. We must doubtless all have it to be for heaven. But it is beyond the possibility of either any divine grace or even death, to effect it; it is to be wrought in us by our purgatorial fire" This transfers the whole thing over to Apollyon's territory! And he rises amidst great applause, and moves that this view be celebrated by a carnival in hell. It is unanimously carried with a din of merriment that is indescribable. Meantime this mirth is catching on earth. Bishops and presiding elders and church officials smile and joke about this universal sanctification which, like the grace of God, leaves none out. The spirit of union grows wider, and the first four classes open to take in the fifth. They lustily sing: "Brothers, brothers all are we, A jolly confraternity."

It begins to look as if all humanity were going to be banded together in unity and love.

6. A little company rise and humbly say, with a heavenly radiance on their upturned faces: "After our conversion we sought, by faith, purity of heart as a second work of grace. The baptism with the Spirit came upon us with the suddenness of Pentecost. We are sanctified now; for 'the blood of Jesus Christ . . . a hallelujah of praise floats down from the skies. But quicker than a flash the devil leaps to his feet with a roar of rage that makes every cavern of hell quiver. Every power of darkness fairly howls his hate, every hell-bound bays his loudest. Meantime on earth every spiritual harlot and covetous moneybags and scheming ecclesiastic and carnal bigot and backslidden worldling, and all the other five classes, who were so lenient towards one another's divergent views, open up in a torrent of vituperation and rage. With consent they cry, "Down with this heresy!" "Put them out!" And all earth and hell pour out their hottest venom against these devoted people, reminding one of the enmity that once howled about the cross of Christ.

How is all this to be accounted for? How can all those other five classes tolerate one another so graciously as common bedfellows, while they rise in such a storm of hate against the testimony to sanctification as given in the blessed Word?

Candidly now, is not this the only explanation: that this doctrine is the truth, and the devil is determined that none shall testify that the blood of Jesus . . . cleanseth us from all sin"? He raises earth and hell to put this testimony down. John Wesley long ago said, "This is the word which the devil peculiarly hates, and stirs up his children against; but it is the word which God will always bless."

Let those who band together to fight holiness think on these things.

Let them ask how it is that the irreconcilable divergence of the first five views troubles nobody, and the adherents of them are in such sweet peace with one another; while they all unite in virulent opposition to the sixth view, by John Wesley and his spiritual descendants, and belch forth a common chorus of hate like that which raged about the Cross, springing from ever class and condition of men.

Is not this plainly the old war of carnality against truth and God? Is it not the same contest, age-long, between good and evil, light and darkness, righteousness and sin?

In a Texas conference some years ago three men preached on the subject of sanctification. The first held that it was gotten at the time of conversion. The second held that Christians grew into it after conversion. The third held that we obtained it at death. But all three of those ministers, and all the rest who did not care when they obtained it, or whether they received it at all, or whether there was any such thing, banded together and expelled from the ministry a fellow minister for preaching sanctification as a second work of grace, received by faith after regeneration!!

Truth forever on the scaffold,
Wrong forever on the throne,
Yet that scaffold sways the future,
And, behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow,
Keeping watch above His own.

What more pathetic passage is there in Christian literature than John Wesley's closing appeal, "On Christian Perfection?" "Who is he that will open his mouth against being cleansed from all pollution, both of flesh and spirit, or against having all the mind that was in Christ -- has the hardiness to object to the devoting, not a part, but all our soul, body and substance to God? Let this Christian perfection appear in its own shape, and who will fight against it? It must be disguised before it can be opposed. It must be covered with a bearskin first, or even the wild beasts of the people will scarce be induced to worry it. But whatever these do, let not the children of God any longer fit against the image of God. Let not those who are alive to God oppose dedicating all our life to Him.

"We allow, we contend, that we are justified freely through the righteousness and the blood of Christ. And why are you so hot against us because we expect likewise to be sanctified wholly through His Spirit? How long will you who worship God in spirit . . . set your battle in array against those who seek an entire 'circumcision of heart' who thirst to be cleansed 'from all filthiness of flesh and spirit,' and to 'perfect holiness in the fear of God?' Nay, we your enemies because we look for a full deliverance from the carnal mind, which is enmity against God? Nay, we are your brethren, your the vineyard of our Lord, your companions in the kingdom and patience of Jesus."

His articles can be viewed here: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=499]A.M. Hills[/url]. He wrote an excellent exposition of 1 John entitled "Cleansing From All Sin," which is also a pertinent article...

if death is the fruit of sin, and Christ destroyed sin om the cross, then why do people who are totaly sanctified still die?
because if they have no more sin in them then death should not have any effect on them?
another more important questioned is why would they need glorified bodies? shouldnt they already being in some glorfied state since sin is no longer in them?
please explain...

another question would be;

why do some newborn babies die? have they sinned?

and christians dont die ;-) death is just the busride to eternal bliss and glory!

but if thier is no sin in tbeir physical bodies, why then do they physical die? why do thier bodies grow old and frail? why would they need to have a glorfied body? is not the death of the physical body a curse that came from the sin of adam. and was tranfered to us?
love andy

( anywho how is your daughter, all better?)

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

what is falling in this verse?

679 a;ptaistoj aptaistos {ap-tah'-ee-stos}
Meaning: 1) not stumbling, standing firm, exempt from falling

he is able to keep me, i im sure about that,

and the word faultless

299 a;mwmoj amomos {am'-o-mos}
Meaning: 1) without blemish 1a) as a sacrifice without spot or blemish 2) morally: without blemish, faultless, unblameable
Origin: from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3470; TDNT - 4:830,619; adj

HE is able brothers....God can do everything, we can get victory over sin

andres wrote:
but if thier is no sin in tbeir physical bodies, why then do they physical die? why do thier bodies grow old and frail? why would they need to have a glorfied body? is not the death of the physical body a curse that came from the sin of adam. and was tranfered to us?
love andy

( anywho how is your daughter, all better?)

yes glory and praise to God she is healty and a blessing :-)

i dont know all the answeers brother, but i do lknow there is victory over sin, im not talking about sinless perfection, but i do belive i can get victory over ebery sin in my life through HIM. there must be that possibility, if not, then to me thats like saying the devils power to keep a man is stronger then Jesus work on the cross....or im i wrong?

edit: i also would have a hard time understand how God can say if you love me keep my commandments....when he in that case knows no one can do that.....

yes , you are utterly right, victory over sin is the believers promise in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:14, "sin shall not have dominion over you" , we are no longer CONTROLLED by sin. if that was not true we would be in a bad place...meaning i dont have to be the same person that i was before.. that is why we need to pick up our cross everyday, so we can put to death our sinful flesh everyday...Luke 9:23 "take up your cross daily and follow after me" where was jesus going with his cross? ---to die and jesus said to do this daily,.. come and die with me in identification daily ( rom 6.6). for only those who do this can have victory..
love andy

Do not think that I go about to destroy you with my 1530s looking English with modern sounding vocals. I am not into self promotion neither was Luther, and look how the fire caught Tyndale. How the daie that I laid eyes upon the Geneva, only if I could have not been stopped by the Calvinist notes, which draw men into perdition and causes the blind to go blinder.
The orignal corruption of George Joye is replacing the with that and someone never correcting in their (faithofgod.net) 1534 with 1525 variants modern abridged Tyndale. This verse: Romans 1:31, commit such things, is corrected using Romans 2:5, and another place Paul uses it to say that those which commit such thinges are worthy of death, not only did them, but have pleasure in them that did them
1534 with 1525 variants to push out G.Joy
I Tim 2;5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,
6 which gave himself a ransom for all men, that it should be preached at his time,
7 whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle (I tell the truth in Christ and lie not) being the teacher of the gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I woll therefore that the men pray every where, lifting up pure hands without wrath, or arguing.

After his bible was condemned and unburnable, Tyndale was immediately betrayed of his friends, ever read the Coverdale? This man lived and didn't care a twit for W.T. We forget also that our foes shallbe those of our own household (that is if we don't commit such things, nor hold to our heart vain vanities)

I have a website with short sermons for ye to see if whether or not the holy ghost preaching is the strait way or is the worldly covetous way (for the wrath of God is abiding on such deceivers)
[url=http://www.geocities.com/dethhead2000/meeknesstemperancy.html]Meek are we not?[/url]

sinless perfection to me is a state where i could say i cant sin, i will never sin again.

the victory im speaking of is that for example, i used to be a drug addict, God set me free from that sin, i used to speak very badly with words, God freed me from that sin, and many many more and by Gods grace he is showing me more and more, and i believe i can get victory over every sin he shows me. Will i ever get to a place where i can say i do not sin? i dont know ...but i press on towards perfection as the scripture says, if it is not possible? then why do we even try?

im not saying im right and you are all wrong :-) i just have this belif, and i want to walk as God wants me to walk. And i dont think he wants me to walk in sin... i mean, Jesus says that john the baptist was the greatest born of women, that is a quite large statement, john the baptist is greater then Moses, Abraham, Elijah and all those people. Yet the smallest of us filled with the spirit is greater then John the baptist!

and if Jesus only took my sin in a forgiving way upon the cross, that is great i will go to heaven and all, but i must still live in it here on earth , what kind of salvation is that ?

Just some questions from my mind, im seeking brother... and i wont stop for nothing less then Jesus Christ himself

God bless you
your brother in Christ

Christian

Progressive Sanctification
by Zac Poonen

Jesus told His apostles to teach others to obey all that He had commanded (Matt. 28:20). One who loves the Lord will first of all seek with all his heart to find out what those commandments are; and then he will seek to obey them (John 14:21).

Under the Law, God gave man commandments, but not the power to obey them. Why then did God give the Law? Only in order that man might discover that he's unable to come up to God's standards, and thus see his need of a Saviour and a Helper. "The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ" (Gal. 3:24).But now God has made a new covenant with man. And He has given us, not only commandments, but also an Example in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus demonstrated by His earthly life that it is possible for us to obey all of God's commandments.

God has also promised under the new covenant to put His Laws into our minds and to write them upon our hearts (Heb. 8:10). He does this through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. The Holy Spirit is our Helper Who not only shows us what the will of God is, but also gives us a desire to do that will and grace to obey all of it too.

God is the One Who is going to sanctify us entirely (1 Thess. 5:23). We can't do it on our own. We have to depend on Him - for He is the One Who works in us giving us both the desire as well as the ability to do His will. But we have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12,13). We have to work out what God works in, for He hasn't turned us into robots!

God cleanses us from the guilt of sin. But we are commanded to "cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor. 7:1). We have to do this, as and when we get light on any defilement within us. It is thus, as we "by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the body" (Rom. 8:13) that the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control - will become more and more manifest in us. This is what it means to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. Thus our path will become one of increasing light (Prov. 4:18). This is the glorious way of sanctification that God has made for us.

i found this article very good and balanced and preatty much what i belive :-)

Mr Zac poonen has a good simple and powerful way of putting it that i lack.....

Justification, Sanctification And Glorification
by Zac Poonen

The word of God speaks of "salvation" in three tenses - past (Ephesians 2:8), present (Philippians 2:12) and future (Romans 13:11) - or in other words, of justification, sanctification and glorification.

Salvation has a foundation and a superstructure. The foundation is forgiveness of sins and justification. Justification is more than the forgiveness of our sins. It also means that we have been declared righteous in God's eyes, on the basis of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension. This is not on the basis of our works (Ephesians 2:8,9), for even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags in God's sight (Isaiah 64:6). We are clothed with the righteousness of Christ (Galatians 3:27). Repentance and faith are the conditions for being forgiven and justified (Acts 20:21).True repentance must produce in us the fruit of restitution - returning money and things and taxes due, that are wrongfully in our possession (that belong to others), and apologising to those we have wronged, as far as possible (Luke 19:8,9). When God forgives us, He also requires that we forgive others in the same way. If we fail to do this, God withdraws His forgiveness (Matthew 18:23-35). Repentance and faith must be followed by baptism by immersion in water, whereby we publicly testify to God, to men and to demons that our old man is indeed buried (Romans 6:4,6).We can then receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, whereby we are endued with power to be witnesses for Christ by our life and our lips (Acts 1:8). The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a promise to be received by faith, by all of God's children (Matthew 3:11; Luke 11:13).It is the privilege of every disciple to have the witness of the Spirit that he is indeed a child of God (Romans 8:16) and also to know for certain that he has indeed received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2).

Sanctification is the superstructure of the building. Sanctification (meaning `being set apart' from sin and the world) is a process that begins with the new birth (1 Corinthians 1:2) and that should continue throughout our earthly life (1 Thessalonians 5:23,24). This is a work that God initiates in us through the Holy Spirit, writing His laws upon our hearts and minds; but we have to do our part, working out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12,13). It is we who are to put to death the deeds of the body through the power that the Spirit offers us (Romans 8:13). It is we who have to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Where a disciple is radical and wholehearted in cooperating with the Holy Spirit in this work, the work of sanctification will progress rapidly in his life. The work will obviously be slow or stagnant in the life of one whose response to the Spirit's leadings is sluggish.

It is in times of temptation that our wholeheartedness in desiring sanctification is truly tested. To be sanctified is to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled inside our hearts - and not just externally as under the old covenant (Romans 8:4). This was what Jesus emphasised in Matthew 5:17-48. The law's requirements were summed up by Jesus as loving God wholeheartedly and loving our neighbour as ourselves (Matthew 22:36-40).

It is this law of love that God now seeks to write in our hearts, for that is His own nature (Hebrews 8:10; 2 Peter 1:4). The outward manifestation of this will be a life of victory over all conscious sin and of obedience to all of Jesus' commandments (John 14:15).

It is impossible to enter into this life without first fulfilling the conditions of discipleship that Jesus laid down (Luke 14:26-33). These are basically to give the Lord the first place above all our relatives and our Self-life and to be detached from all of one's material wealth and possessions.

This is the narrow gate that we have to go through first. Then comes the narrow way of sanctification. Those who do not pursue after sanctification will never see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

While it is possible to be perfect in our conscience here and now (Hebrews 7:19; 9:9,14), it is not possible to be sinlessly perfect until we have a glorified body at Jesus' return (1 John 3:2). We can be LIKE Him only then. But we must seek to WALK as He walked even now (1 John 2:6).As long as we have this corruptible body, unconscious sin will be found in it, however much we may be sanctified (1 John 1:8). But we can be perfect in our conscience (Acts 24:16) and be free from conscious sin (1 John 2:1a), even now, if we are wholehearted (1 Corinthians 4:4).Thus we wait for the second coming of Christ and for our glorification - the final part of our salvation, when we will become sinlessly perfect (Romans 8:23; Philippians 3:21).

if your christianity isent enough to get you victory over indwelling sin here and now, it isent enough to get you into heaven.

Alan Redpath

An unholy life is an evidence of an unchanged heart, an unchanged heart is an evidence of an unsaved soul....

Spurgeon

maybe i missed something, ? no i dont think he did(Spurgeon), maybe im getting this concept of sinless perfection wrong ? i will go back and read more carefully......

i just relistend to the sermon from Alan Redpath, chosen to be holy, and i think he very good sums up what i belive God showes me through scripture. has anyone else listend to that sermon?

i lack word to express this but, so far in my walk after Jesus, i have come to this belief, that through his mercy and grace he will continue all through out my earthly life to show me my sins in my life, and he will give grace and power to overcome every single known sin that he shows me.

is that sinless perfection? to me thats just the normal Christian life :-) but i think it was Keith Daniel that said, holiness whiteout Christ is heresy....

God bless you all
Christian

Have mercy on me God a sinner. is my constant heart-cry."
~ Greg Gordon

The sinner may do a righteous act and the righteous man may commit a sin, but does that change his nature? either way? Surely not? Do I profess to be one who never sins? Not at all, but I know that God has changed my nature and things which held me captive no longer have that power. I know that the pattern of my life has changed and its ruling powers. Something has plainly happened to the man who can write...

[color=0033FF]Rom. 6:18 (NKJV) And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Rom. 6:20 (NKJV) ¶ For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

Rom. 6:22 (NKJV) But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Rom. 8:2 (NKJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [/color]

Re: FINDING AGREEMENT??

Regarding "CHRISTIAN PERFECTION" and Giancarlo's view:

I think we need to avoid all charges of "heresy", etc, until we can
sit down and talk together and clarify some of the terms that
we are using. Some of the misunderstanding may simply be
terminology.

I also think that Wesley's "Summary" of his 'Christian Perfection'
book may give some grounds for common understanding and
quite a lot of agreement. (-Two of his summary statements have been
quoted already by me. -Here they are again below)-

WESLEY:-
"We Secondly believe, that there is no such perfection in this
life, as implies an entire deliverance, either from ignorance, or mistake,
in things not essential to salvation, or from manifold temptations, or
from numberless infirmities, wherewith the corruptible body more or less
presses down the soul. We cannot find any ground in Scripture to suppose,
that any inhabitant of a house of clay is wholly exempt either from bodily infirmities, or from ignorance of many things;or to imagine any is incapable of mistake, or falling into divers temptations.

"But whom then do you mean by 'one that is perfect?' We mean one
in whom is 'the mind which was in Christ,' and who so 'walketh as Christ
also walked;' a man 'that hath clean hands and a pure heart,' or that is
'cleansed from all filthiness of flesh and spirit;' one in whom is 'no
occasion of stumbling,' and who, accordingly, 'does not commit sin.' To
declare this a little more particularly: We understand by that scriptural expression, 'a perfect man,' one in whom God hath fulfilled his faithful word, 'From all your filthiness and from all your idols I will cleanse you: I will also save you from all your uncleannesses.' We understand hereby, one whom God lath 'sanctified throughout in body, soul, and spirit;' one who 'walketh in the
light as He is in the light, in whom is no darkness at all; the blood of Jesus Christ his Son having cleansed him from all sin.'"

Is there basic agreement to these statements of Wesley? (-At least
general agreement to what he is essentially putting across)?

Giancarlo? Josef? Patrick?

Essential agreement?

-Andrew.