Are official pastors unbiblical?

DanielJ, LoveHim, and I were discussing house churches when the subject changed, hence this new thread.

This is the previous thread:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17537&forum=35]House Churches[/url]

Does the bible recognize "official pastors", i.e. one man that rules a local congregation with a sub-group of submissive elders?

If this is not a New Testament establishment, is it to be avoided or is it supported in another way?

I'm not particularly resolute on one side or the other, and would like to know the biblical basis for each side.

Thanks!

Just wanted to say "amen" to LoveHim first post on the second page of the house church thread. This should be a good discussion (and I hope a profitable one). If a brother or sister would like to present what they consider the Biblical case for pastorships we might begin there. Just a suggestion.

Much grace to all.

I believe pastorship in the modern sense is wrong. It is a CEO-type job, and its got a business mindset almost. But it's sort of like saying, "is church unbiblical?"-- Modern church is, but a certain form is not, that's found in Acts... this is what I'm talking about with Pastors... the modern role of it where the Pastor "runs the show" and so forth is wrong...

There should be Elders who have the respect of the Fellowship, and the offices of the Prophet and Apostle (something largely missing from our modern churches), etc., and they are sort of "pastors"-- but is there one big pastor who "runs the show," represented in the NT? I don't think so, or I am not sure... maybe others can provide some Scripture to clarify the issue.

Had I never attended a modern church and only knew the New Testament, I wonder what my views would be?

Perhaps I would think...

Elders are those who are most mature and have been recognized because of their fruitfulness, faithfulness, and consistency with the scriptures. At least one ought to be appointed over every assembly, preferrably by another elder of another fellowship or by the founding apostle. There seems also to be room for many elders. More than ten? More than fifty? I would expect them to go out and begin a new fellowship as soon as the elder/deacon/disciple ratio becomes unbalanced.

Everyone submits one to another, with particular reverence given to the advice of elders.

Everyone serves in some cheerful capacity. If you will not serve, you will not be recognized as a born again believer.

Love dominates the meetings. Love takes no pleasure in sin.

The most authoritative elders, or bishops if you will, are the ones giving most of their time and material wealth to the cause of establishing others in the faith, praying and ministering. They do this first, and are then recognized and appointed to their office. (The position of "deacon" is called an "office" in 1 Timothy, I believe, and one to be "used".)

The more holy the elder, the less material he will be, thus he his worthy of his reasonably hire for full-time work. However, if possible ad beneficial, he may also work for a living as Paul did.

My thoughts...

dear openlife,

could you imagine what we would think and how we would act if we did not know modern "church" but instead only had our Bibles..

i, much like danielj, believe that the "office" of a pastor is unbiblical..i believe that the very things we call offices are really laid out in scripture as functions..

i believe that the greek word for elder simply means an older mature man and the greek word for deacon simply means one who serves.. (i'm at work, so i will double check that when i get home). like i said in the other thread, we look at a modern "pastor" and give him a role that he was never designed for.. in modern christianity, he is the "head" of the service and "head" of the church.. all things ultimately run through him.. in the Bible, Christ is the head of His church and He is the one who runs things..

instead of the "pastor" being in charge of feeding God's flock like sunday mornings are about, in the NT, all the believers were responsible for the building, edifying and teaching of one another..

please understand, that i do not hate pastors or anything like that, i just hate how the role of pastor has changed from being a function and someone who was a mature believer that loved deeply the believers around him that he would give all for them and turned it into a ceo business type executive that runs church and everyone follows his vision and goals.. i am not saying that all pastors have this heart, i am only generalizing on the modern office of a pastor..

most of all, pastors or elders in the NT were men that worked just like you and me.. from what i've studied, the only ones supported were the apostles (which is closest to a modern-day missionary).. but even a father of the faith paul said that even when he could've taken from the believers to provide for his needs, he would rather not so as to provide a better example..i know in smaller "churches", the pastor usually has to work, but what is the goal?? to build his church big enough that he can do it full-time and not work anymore.. but i don't see that in the word..

i guess there is still so much to say, but i don't want to wrote a huge post.. maybe this will cause some other questions to pop up and spark some more discussion..

Great post, theopenlife. I would just submit to you that from my understanding, the New Testament always shows a plurality of elders in the context of the church.

I agree, what I've read generally infers multiple elders. The reason I wrote "at least one" is because of the possibility that only one person who fulfills those functions exists. For instance, a lone missionary establishing a church. Four or five may come to know Christ and during their maturing, the missionary preacher is the sole elder.

Agreed?

Saints,

I've read this before, and agree (not because Zan Poonen wrote it) with how this brother views the role of the church. I've even put in [b]bold[/b] some of the things that, I feel, particularly ring true in my heart. Not all of us will agree with everything in this short article, but most of will agree with most of it, and some of us will even agree with all of it. It is taken in detail from his "What We Believe" in the statements of faith of CFC in India. I think that as a whole, it is relevant to this thread.

"The church is the body of Christ. It has only one Head - Christ; and it has only one headquarters - the third heaven. In the body of Christ, every member has a function (Eph. 4:16). While some members may have a more important or visible ministry than others, every member has something valuable to contribute.

Christ has given to His church apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers to build His body (Eph. 4:11). [b]These are ministries and not titles.[/b] Apostles are those called and sent by God to plant local churches. They have the first place in the church (1 Cor. 12:28) and are thus elders to the elders of the churches within their sphere (2 Cor.10:13). Prophets are those who uncover and minister to the hidden needs of God's people. Evangelists are those who are gifted to bring the heathen to Christ. They must then bring these converts into the local church, which is Christ's body. (Here is where a lot of modern evangelism fails). Shepherds are those who care for and guide the young lambs and sheep. Teachers are those who can explain the Scriptures and its doctrines. These five gifts are for the church worldwide; and from among them, shepherds are the mainstay of every local church. The other gifts can be itinerant (from other localities).

The leadership of the local church should be in the hands of elders. The New Testament clearly teaches this (Tit. 1:5; Acts 14:23). `Elders', being plural, implies that there must be at least two in every church. A plurality of elders is necessary for a balance in the leadership of the local church and also for binding the activities of Satan through the power of the Lord's presence (as we read in Mt. 18:18-20).

One-man leadership of a church is contrary to the teaching of the New Testament. One among the elders may however be the `messenger of the church' (Rev.2:1), if he is gifted with the Word.

Jesus forbade His disciples from having titles (Matt. 23:7-12). It is against the word of God therefore, to be called Rabbi, Father, Pastor, Reverend, or Leader. The title of `Reverend', in fact, is used only for God in the Bible (Psa. 111:9 KJV); and one who uses it can be guilty like Lucifer, of wanting to be like God (Isa. 14:14). Everyone in the church, great or small, is to be just a brother and a servant.

The meetings of the local church must be open for all disciples to prophesy in (1 Cor. 14:26-40), unless it be a meeting for teaching (Acts 20:9,11) or prayer (Acts 12:5,12), or evangelism (Acts 2:14-40). The gift of prophesy must be desired by all who want to exercise it in the meetings (1 Cor. 14:1,39). The gift of tongues, although primarily meant for personal edification (1 Cor. 14:4,18,19), can also be exercised in the meetings of the church, but should always be followed by an interpretation (1 Cor. 14:27). The interpretation of a tongue can be a revelation, a word of knowledge, a prophecy, a teaching, or a prayer to God (1 Cor.14:2-6). All the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:8-10,28 and Rom. 12:6-8 are needed for the building up of the body of Christ. A church that despises or ignores the gifts of the Holy Spirit will never have them.

Women are permitted to pray and prophesy with their heads covered in the meetings, but they are not permitted to exercise authority or teach men (1Cor.11:5; 1Tim.2:12).

The church also has a responsibility to preach the good news by all means possible, to all whom it can reach, with the aim of making disciples of Christ in all nations (Mk. 16:15 with Matt. 28:19). Evangelism without disciple-making, however, is a hindrance to the testimony of Christ on earth.

Every local church must also proclaim the Lord's death through the `breaking of bread' (1 Cor. 11:22-34). The frequency of this testimony is a matter on which the Word of God gives freedom to each church. But it must never be allowed to degenerate into an empty ritual.

[b]Regarding offerings, God's Word is clear that it is wrong to receive money from unbelievers for God's work (3 Jn.7).[/b] Offerings must therefore not be taken in meetings where unbelievers are present. All giving by believers must also be voluntary and secret (2 Cor.9:7). It is wrong to send reports of the work to others, with the intention of obtaining money from them (even if such reports are called `prayer letters').

The church can be unshakable only as it leads the disciples to the obedience of faith - to obedience to all of Jesus' commandments, particularly the ones listed in Matt. 5-7. The smallest commandments in the New Testament must also be obeyed and proclaimed with zeal. This is what makes a person great in God's eyes (Matt. 5:19).

There are many matters on which the New Testament is silent. In such matters we are not to be dogmatic but must give freedom to other disciples to hold their own convictions, while holding our own convictions firmly ourselves (Rom. 14:5).

It is easy to love those who see eye-to-eye with us in all matters. [b]Our love is however tested by our attitude to those who disagree with us. God has not intended that all His children hold the same view on every minor point. Neither has He intended that every local church have the same external form in non-Scriptural matters.[/b] The glory of God is meant to be seen in a unity in the midst of diversity. Uniformity is man-made and brings spiritual death. God does not desire uniformity but unity.

Finally we must remember that the clearest mark of the disciples of Jesus is their love for one another (Jn. 13:35). Thus the church must seek to be one as the Father and the Son are one (Jn. 17:21)."

- Zac Poonen

Brothers and Sisters,

If they are called of the Lord, yes.
Otherwise, why would we waste our time reading or listening to the many sermons that are freely given here at SI since all these pastors were operating out of the will of God?
How could it be the will of God to support such a site as this since these men preached these sermons to a congregation they had no calling or authority to lead. Be careful how you choose your words.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Who will be the one to decide?

Ephes. 4:1-32
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
[17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, [18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: [19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. [20] But ye have not so learned Christ; [21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: [22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; [24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[25] Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. [26] Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: [27] Neither give place to the devil. [28] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [29] Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [31] Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: [32] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

HE GAVE! For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephes. 4:11-12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Have you been perfected for the work of the ministry to edify the body of Christ? Remember it is up to us to obey His Word. He has called all that are His to work while it is day, will you obey His calling?

In His Love
pastorfrin

dear pastorfrin,

dear brother, i hope that you will be able to look at both sides of this issue. i appreciate you posting your thoughts as well..

no one here is disagreeing that the Lord gave some to be pastors.. the question is, is the modern role or title given to a man today called the pastor biblical?? that is the question before us..

the greek word for pastor is poimen which means shepherd.. pastor then is a metaphor describing the heart of a pastor- to tend to the flock with nurture and care..

pastor, elder, and overseer were not 3 different offices of the NT, but 3 different words for the same function.. pastor speaks of shepherding and loving the flock. elder in the greek means a more mature man.. it speaks to one who has been seasoned by God in his walk and because of his long, deep walk with God, he was an example to the younger brethren.. overseer or bishop is a term to describe how pastors (or elders) in the NT directed and guided the matters of fellowship, but by no means controlled them..

because of years of tradition (since constantine and a little before) we have been accustomed to looking at terms by our mindset instead of looking at how the true church functioned in the NT.

for example, deacon is not a position like a board member.. deacon in the greek means to be an attendent, to wait upon.. it carried the idea of a servant, a waitress or waitor, here to serve one another. because is that not what we believers in Christ are called to do??

while there is so much to say, let me go to one more point.. while in modern "church", the pastor is the "head". people will not state this doctrinally, but by their practice, he is.. all things ultimately run through him and he decides which way the service runs and what the Lord is saying a lot of the times..

power in the church runs in a top-down model.. much like a business has a top-down approach.. the top of the local church is the pastor, then either staff or elders or deacons and then the mass "lay" people.. but that is not how Christ told his disciples to be like..

matthew 20:25-28 "you know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and exercise authority over them. IT IS NOT SO AMONG YOU, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave. just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many".

leadership in the NT was not a top-down approach, but rather a down-up outline, where the leader is the greatest servant and the first is last.. today, sadly many pastors have the ultimate power and we are to submit to him, but who does he submit to..

i understand that many godly pastors have helped many people and been used of God to save many souls.. this sight is filled with great men used of God to preach the gospel and win the lost, but that does not negate us from looking at the Word and seeing if an office or position of a senior pastor is biblical or not..

pastorfrin, it is only God's mercy that He always blesses us and blesses His church in spite of what we are and in spite of what mistakes we make. I believe that the Lord expects us to live within the light that we have received. If God's clear shining within me - according to His word - says that pastorship as an office is unscriptural, then I would be living in grave error and disobedience not to drop it. Did not God, however, bless Brother Lawrence - even in the midst of the Catholic Church? Of course. Was not Brother Lawrence, then, "outside of God's will"? In a sense - yes, he was. However, aren't we all in some measure? Should I go to the Catholic Church because God blessed Brother Lawrence? Of course not. Should I not point out that the concept of pastorship is not Biblical just because the Lord blessed Charles Spurgeon? Of course not.

The point is that we have to go to see what the Scripture says. The Scripture shows churches with elders and deacons and a plurality of gifts and all as members functioning. The Bible does not show churches with a "pastor". This is an invention.

When I lead you to Christ, brother, am I not "pastoring" you? Am I not serving as a shepherd to bring you into a place of feeding? Is anyone any more a "pastor" than me just because he has presumes to take authority over a local church and use the word "pastor" with a capital "P"?

You can really get raked over the coals for asking this kind of question....
I like the conclusions many have came to in this thread. It seems to me that God has worked greatly through the current model (and by that, I mean like the pastors and churches here on sermonindex). I do think that the structure of meetings is given a great deal of freedom. I think that it is purposefully like that so that people can come together and worship no matter what circumstances they are in (culture, freedom/persecution, economic status, culture...).
But like many who are posting, I really really do not like what the role of pastor or other leadership is becoming to mean. Many endanger their spiritual health and the spiritual health of their congregations by trying to be something scripture doesn't tell them to be.

well said brothers,

God does bless and use pastors, but i believe it is not because of their "position", but in spite of it..

there are great heroes of the faith on this website, great men who stood and preach the gospel with unwavering boldness.. but should i disregard what scripture shows us because some of these men were senior pastors of churches?? shall i discount the word because a man of God was used to start a revival???

all we are trying to do on this thread is to see if the Bible shows us that a senior pastor is an office to fill, a certain position if you will.

and to that, i would say that i don't see that in the word.. i see multiple functioning pastors (elders) withing any given fellowship.. not pastors by title, but pastors by heart..

Hi LoveHim,

You said:
“ dear pastorfrin,

dear brother, i hope that you will be able to look at both sides of this issue. i appreciate you posting your thoughts as well.”

Please read the thread below and then ask me if I am willing to look at both sides of the issue. Also you will find pretty much my life story on the pages of this forum, How about yours, who are you and tell us if you would your testimony, just thought it would be interesting to know. Just for a point of information, the little church we now shepherd had its beginnings in a home and from time to time we still do have our service in a home. It is not where you gather that matters but it is the reason you gather.
The thread is:

Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

It is about 42 pages long so get out your reading glasses.8-)

Found at:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9881&forum=36

In His Love
pastorfrin

dear pastorfrin,

what have i said that is against the word?? i just read all of the thread that you posted and i guess i'm still asking "what have i written that you seem offended"??

i am not against pastors, i just believe that the current modern "pastoral office" is unbiblical. i do believe that God gave some to be pastors, but the question is what is the role of a pastor?? is it an office to fill?? is it where one man is the "head" of the church??

once again, we are not saying that pastors are unbiblical, just the current office of the "Pastor" is..

have i or anyone here misquoted scripture?? please show us if we have.

would you like my testimony on this thread or in a private message?? if you would like to talk about this in person, i can give you my # and that way, we won't have to talk over the computer..

i look forward to your responses..love you guys.

thank you grannieannie,

as i've already expressed to you, i appreciate meeting you and your different posts on this site. God bless you.

back to the topic at hand, have i said anthing that is mean or malicious about pastors personally?? i have re-read my posts and i do not believe i have.

what i am talking about is the "profession" of a "Pastor". in the NT, the pastors (plural) of a certain location were shepherds and were elders.. these are not 3 different roles, but 3 different words to describe the same function. i do believe that there are godly pastors in a church, because there are men who are mature in the faith that God has through trials and years, sesasoned them with grace and everyone in the fellowship know it..

i know that we look at words and read the Word through our given mindset, but has anyone truly studied how believers in the first century met after Christ went to heaven?? we tend to read the word pastor and immediately we conjure up our idea of a pastor based on our experiences and thoughts and other stuff we may have read.. but we need to look at what the authors meant when they used that specific word.. we need to know the background that the NT was written in when we want to know if a certain "office" or "role" is biblical in todays context.

i think if we really look at the NT with an open mind to see what was the heart of it and not what we may want it to say, we may have a different opinion..

Hi Phil,

No you have not offended me and please forgive me if I have said something to cause you to think I was.
If you read the entire thread then you know where I stand in regards to corporate pastors.
You also would have noticed I differentiate between pastor as a calling and a profession.
One problem I do have with the title of this thread is the word unbiblical. Are there pastors who abuse their office? Yes absolutely, but who’s fault is it? What does the word say?

2 Tim. 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is why Paul charges Timothy a shepherd in:

2 Tim. 4:1-2
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; [2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Every true shepherd must also guard against this for it is truly here now.

You said:
Quote:
“God does bless and use pastors, but i believe it is not because of their "position", but in spite of it.”

In light of:
Ephes. 4:11-12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Lets plug into your statement apostles, or prophets, or evangelist, and you tell me why or how such a statement as you made above can be justified.
The Lord gave pastors /shepherds the same as He gave apostles, prophets, evangelist and teachers.
What I am saying is this; you cannot throw all pastor/shepherds into the same category, because some are false does not take away the fact that the Lord has called true ones to that office.

We will not draw closer to the Lord by deleting those He has called and the church will not become stronger because of where or how we conduct our services. Only by making Him the reason for our gathering together to praise and glorify His name and to do His will no matter what the cost, only then will the Lord empower us.
We look everywhere but the one place we should for what is wrong with the modern day church and the one place is within ourselves.

Luke 9:23-24
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

I ask you Phil the same question I asked many times on the referred thread.
Will You?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Dear Sister Annie,

Thank you for your kind words, but I believe it is you that has taught me. I thank you for your encouragement and if I caused you to believe again than all glory be to God who would use one such as I for His glory. Is He not wonderful, and how I pray for His peace to keep your heart and mind safely in Him.
You and yours have a wonderful Lord's Day and we will all praise His name together.:-D
In His Love
pastorfrin

dear pastorfrin,

thank you for your response, but i think that we are still missing each other on some thinking..

we both believe that pastoring is given to the body by the Lord. we do not disagree there..

my quote should be taken along with everything i have written on this thread.. pastoring is VERY BIBLICAL. where i and some mebers are disagreeing with some is in the "title" and "office" of the modern "Pastor". that is what we are saying is unbiblical..

from what i read, much of what you guys do at your church is awesome and God glorifying.. once again, what we are saying is unbiblical is the "office" of the modern "Pastor" (where one man runs the show in a top-down CEO type style system).. that is what we are saying is unbiblical..

we desire every member edifying and building each other up in the faith, not just one man feeding the sheep in a lecture style service on a sunday morning.. i am saying that i long for every-member functioning in all the gifts and calling that the Lord has given us (some pastors, some prophets, some apostles, some teachers, and some evangelists). i do not disagree with the callings the Lord has placed on us His children. i just disagree with the way that calling has turned out to become an "office".

i hope that this may clarify some misunderstandings that you or others may have as regarding this thread... love you guys.

Amen to LoveHim's last post. Brother pastororfrin, I wish you would address the post I wrote to you before. Thanks! Nobody is saying that shepherds are not in the Bible or that the practice of being a shepherd is unbiblical. What is unbiblical is all of this talk about voting and salaried "Pastors" (and "co-Pastors" and "Senior Pastors" and "Youth Pastors," etc.) who take shepherding as a [i]function[/i] in the church and make it into a title and an office in which they take control of church direction. This is completely unscriptural. The New Testament shows a plurality of elders, not all of whom are necessarily gifted to teach (Paul says an elder with the gift of teaching deserves double honor), and who do not "rule" but guide and edify - so that each one may come into their function.

Also, I encourage everyone to read 1 Corinthians 14:26 (which was brought up in another thread) for beautiful teaching on what church gatherings should really look like. The New Testament is really quite clear on all of this. We need to forsake our preferences and be honest about what the Bible really says.

acts 28:32-35

v32- "and now brethren, i commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified"

v33- "i have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel"

v34- "yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me"

v35- "i have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said It is more blessed to give than receive"

pastors were not supported by tithes and offerings in the NT, they worked like regular men and women. apostles (much like modern day missionaries) were the ones who were supported by freewill, voluntary giving.. but even though paul was entitled to taking their money to provide for his needs, he worked so as to show a better example.

1 corinthians 9:14-18

v14 "even so, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel"

v15- "but i have used none of these things, nor have i written these things that it should be done so to me; for it would be better for me to die than that anyone should make my boasting void"

v16- "for if i preach the gospel, i have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes woe is me if i do not preach the gospel"

v17- "for if i do this willingly, i have a reward; but if against my will, i have been entrusted with a stewardship"

v18- "what is my reward then? that when i preach the gospel, i may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that i may not abuse my authority in the gospel"

once again, apostles were supported by the early church, but even paul works and limits himself lest people think that he is doing it for money. but pastors (elders) were mature men who worked a job and provided for themselves, because they didn't travel to start a church, they were already in a given location..

just some thoughts. love you guys.

Now consider what I Timothy 3:1-15 (NASB):

1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity

5 but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.

11Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.

12(X)Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;

15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of )the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

( KJV uses the term bishop instead of the word overseer).

And study the book of Acts to see how the church functioned. One thing must be noted that when you have people who work to follow the LORD the Enemy will always be there to pervert whatever God has ordained. So you will see abuses everywhere, but that does not mean you will have to 'throw the baby out with the bath." (To you foreigners: this means discard the entire concept because of abuses in some quarters).

Are you fellows saying that to have a leader who attempts to give direction to a body of believers unbiblical?

ginnyrose

dear ginnyrose,

i pray to God that you did not get from my post that i believe that having pastors (shepherds) are unbiblical.. quite the opposite. what i am saying is that having one man "run the show" and be the "head" of the church (making all the decisions) is unbiblical.. i believe that if one truly studies the NT church without bias, they would find that the church met in homes, had many pastors (shepherds) and apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers in any given location. there was only one church per city (even if they met in multiple homes).

i don't know how many more times i can say "HAVING PASTORS (plural) IN CHURCHES IS VERY BIBLICAL" . what i am saying is wrong is having one man leading the church in a top-down authority structure (like a CEO business type structure).

i guess alot of people's opinions would be different if we didn't come to the bible with preconceived ideas about church and pastors, but studied how it really was in acts and the other churches in the NT.

i understand that there really are godly shepherds like pastorfrin and others out there and for that i say "praise God", but i still think some things are wrong about the system that we either don't know about or just don't wanna take a real deep look at..

love you guys.