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IS THERE SUCH A PERSON CALLED A CARNAL CHRISTIAN?
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CARNAL CHRISTIAN?
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R
RumbleBee
Backsliding sinner is what I'd call that.
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sermonindex
Charles Finney had an article against the whole "carnal Christian" or "sinning saint" view. The article is called "The Carnal Christian" I believe.
The bible has a different term other then "sinning saint" and that term is hypocrite and backslider.
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rookie
According to Scripture...one is a babe in Christ.
1Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
Heb. 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Babes in Christ have not grown strong in the word of God.
Listen to John who writes about different levels of maturity...
12 I write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.
\t\tI write to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you have overcome the wicked one.
\t\tI write to you, little children,
\t\tBecause you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.
\t\tI have written to you, young men,
\t\tBecause you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
\t\tAnd you have overcome the wicked one.
Look to the difference between the 'little children," "young men," and "fathers."
Paul writes of the Corinthians...
1Cor. 4:14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
He calls them "beloved children" whom he is warning, that there are few fathers among them.
In Christ
jeff
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rookie
Lazarus wrote:
Charles Finney had an article against the whole "carnal Christian" or "sinning saint" view. The article is called "The Carnal Christian" I believe.
I see it differently...not necessarily a saint who is sinning, but a saint who is immature...
What do you think brother Lazarus?
In Christ
Jeff
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sermonindex
Here are the qualifications for a backslider or hypocrite, as I see it:
1. They have sin in their life
2. They are aware or know that sin is in their life
3. They are unwilling to get that sin out of their life
Such a person cannot be considered a "sinning saint" or a "carnal Christian" because they are no Saint at all, no Christian at all!
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rowdy2
Cast all your care upon Jesus, look full in His face.
(Ps.37:5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.)
(Ps.55:22 Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.)
(Prov.16:3 Commit thy works unto the Lord, and thy thoughts shall be established.)
(Jer.17:7-8
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.)
(Matt.6:26-34
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.)
(Lk.12:22-32
22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.)
(Php.4:6-7
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.)
(Heb.13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.)
(1Pet.5:6-7
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.)
Eddie
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nizero
I found a great article on this exact topic by Ernest Reisinger. If you had listened to a sermon by Paul Washer you might of been introduced to this topic of the "carnal christian". I beilieve that this article might of been influential in Washers understanding of this topic. I know that Reisinger's other writings had a profound effect on Washers understanding of evangelism.
My purpose in this booklet is to argue that this classification is wrong and to set out the positive, historic, and biblical answer to this 'carnal Christian' teaching. The argument from Church history is not unimportant, for it is a fact that less than two-hundred years ago this teaching was unknown in the churches of North America, but I am concerned to rest my case on an honest statement of the teaching of the Bible. I have written after study, private meditation and prayer, and after using many of the old respected commentaries of another day, but my appeal is to the Word of God and it is in the light of that authority that I ask the reader to consider all that follows.
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psalm1
Redeemedgurl, When we get to heaven, we will be issued crowns. Rewards for souls we brought with us etc.
some will have no crowns because they did nothing to advance Gods kingdom.
also "there are some saved as through fire"
"They are saved but their works are burned up"
Not good!!!
......David
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sermonindex
I love what Jesus and Paul had to say about carnal "christians"...
Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
1 Corinthians 6
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
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Gammo
Is there such a thing as a carnal Christian, James says that a friend of the world is an enemy of God, Christians are not Gods enemies. read James 4:4-10
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sermonindex
There is a reason Paul, John, yes even the Lord Himself continually warned us "DONT BE DECEIVED"... because of the utter depth and well orchestrated deception that the devil would produce and present us with.
I utter the word of God again... don't be deceived a carnal christian is no christian at all. They must repent and be converted by Gods grace.
In Christ - Jim
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psalm1
How sold out are we? To the degree we're not is our level of carnality.
Maybe everyone here thinks he is so strong and pure "no carnality here".
But if you were snatched up suddenly and found yourself at the very foot of Gods throne. Well, we all would sing a diff. tune.
"Walk in the spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh"
If we are not relying on the Holy Spirit to check our carnality .....
......David
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roaringlamb
How is it that we have forgotten the FACT that we are justified by faith. Justification is a one time legal declaration that the record against us has been blotted out.
Now sanctification is also a one time act that works out in a progression. The words used for sanctify mean to sat aside, to make holy etc. but are not something man can do. Remember Jesus' words to the Pharisees, "which is greater the gold in the temple, or the temple that sanctifies the gold?" In the same way, which is greater, the man that is sanctified, or the one who sanctifies the man?
Finney has done more damage to the teaching of Justification by faith and has destroyed so many people that he ought not be named within Christian circles any longer. He preached much what the Roman Catholic Church believes in that a man must be sanctified to justified. This of course is a lie, and why the Reformers spoke so boldly against it. But at leas in the Roman system they are told there is a place called purgatory where they can be absloved of their sin, Finney simply leaves people in a works righteousness system without the work of Christ where man himself must get himself to Heaven.
If you believe this, why preach to anyone? there is no hope in this. Men know they are damned, and some of them could care less about it, but if there is no hope of Life, what are you offering people? Christ came to give life, not laws and not morals, but Life or better yet Himself.
In short, those who tell men they must work to earn Heaven have turned away from the righteousness of Christ through grace, and have yoked themselves to the righteousness which comes by works, and brethren no man can be justified by his works because even the good ones are tainted with sin.
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sermonindex
“1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 [b]For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”
Recently God broke my heart over this area of carnality. Through studying on the Spirit-filled life I learned the definition of a carnal believer and a Spirit-filled believer. The Spirit-filled believer is controlled by the Spirit of God. The carnal believer is ‘man-centered’. Every one and thing exists for the benefit of me. I self-righteously applied this definition of carnality to another situation amongst Christians where there had been some envying, strife, and division. But later God nailed me with carnality in my life where I had been focused on me and what I wanted. Oh, I wept at the pride that was in my heart! Even in spiritual matters I can so easily be carnal in that [i]I am right and my view is the right one.
Those were my thoughts when I read this thread and I felt lead to share. Oh that we would all be completely surrendered to God and controlled by the Holy Spirit every minute of every day!!
Blessings,
Joy
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sermonindex
In short, those who tell men they must work to earn Heaven have turned away from the righteousness of Christ through grace, and have yoked themselves to the righteousness which comes by works, and brethren no man can be justified by his works because even the good ones are tainted with sin.
You are creating a false picture of what the scripture says. Becareful that you dont indict Paul, James and the Lord Himself with your over generalized comment.
A man is not justified by faith alone... James 2:24
In Christ - Jim
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roaringlamb
A man is not justified by faith alone... James 2:24
Yes, true justification produces works. But this passage is also speaking to the Jewish people James was addressing, and the phrase, "thou believest that there is one God" literally is, "you believe that God is one" Now remember the OT, where it said,"hear oh Israel the Lord our God is one"
James is using this to get their attention that their justification was not from the fact that they were Jews, or because they believed God is one. Thus he goes on, "your faith must have some evidence other than that to be true faith."
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running2win
Maybe everyone here thinks he is so strong and pure "no carnality here".
But if you were snatched up suddenly and found yourself at the very foot of Gods throne. Well, we all would sing a diff. tune.
Excellent statement David. One thing I've noticed in the Bible is that in almost every account of someone having a vision of God or our Glorified Lord the person (e.i. John, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.) falls on their face "as dead". Isaiah cried "Woe is me! I am undone for I am a man of unclean lips!" Edward Payson was a man totally overcome by the sense of his exceeding sinfullness even though he was probably the holiest american of the 19th century. We all will have a level of carnality until we go to be with God for eternity. Ah, but that doesn't mean we just accept it, but rather that we should strive all the more to be spiritual and totally free from our carnal nature.
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sermonindex
"your faith must have some evidence other than that to be true faith."
Amen lamb.. now we're on the same page. Paul also clearly lays out works of the flesh, which when continued in will disqaulify your profession of faith. (1 Cor 6:9-10)
Funny that I am standing for holiness in one thread, but others would view me as speaking against it in another...
So is life at sermon index :oP
In Christ - Jim
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psalm1
Someone actually agrees with me? So this is what that fells like! please nobody bother me . Im basking in the glory of it....
,/.....David
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running2win
Finney has done more damage to the teaching of Justification by faith and has destroyed so many people that he ought not be named within Christian circles any longer.
Careful brother. Don't go shaking your finger at Finney until God has used you like He used Finney. Then and then only will you have the right to condemn him. John Wesley baptized infants. Was he a heretic too? What about Girolamo Savonarola? A catholic monk. A man tremendously used by God in revival in Florence. A Monk! Henry Drummond. A good friend of D.L. Moody and a man also very used of God. Drummond was a theistic evolutionist. Don't go pointing fingers until you've shaken this world for God. You've no right too.
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running2win
Someone actually agrees with me? So this is what that fells like! please nobody bother me . Im basking in the glory of it....
LOL! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't know if you meant that to be funny but oh it's killing me! David, you're a dear brother!
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psalm1
Oh ...please this is just .......too soon......i want as much milage as possible......this may...........not .......happen.........again............thanks everone!....................................................................................................David
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LoveHim
i guess my question for the writer of this thread is..
what does he mean when he says "is there such a person as a carnal christian"
does he mean a young, immature believer in the faith who loves God but messes up??
or a professing christian who loves his sin and does not want to give it up??
just a few questions..
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RedeemedgurL
WHAT I MEAN ACTAULLY IS, THAT IF A PERSON CLAIMS TO BE A CHRISTIAN AND IS ALWAYS IN HIS/HER FLESH, I ALWAYS HEAR THAT THEY'RE CALLED "AN CARNAL CHRISTIAN."
IF THERE IS'NT NO SUCH TERM, WHAT WOULD YOU CALL THAT?
ARE THEY SAVED?
WHAT IS THE ORGINAL GREEK MEANING OF CARNAL?
I AM CONFUSSED. BECAUSE I HEAR THAT TERM BEING USE ALL THE TIME AND I CAN'T HELP IT BUT,IT BOTHERS ME B/C IT SEEMS LIKE THEY ARE ABUSING/MIS- USE THE WORD.
HELP.
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HopePurifies
Well, the way I see it is that I don't really necessarily care if they are "saved" or not.
What I mean is this...
The person who lives in their flesh is in great danger. Whether they have made a profession of faith or not, if they are not pulled from the fire quickly they will make a pathway straight to hell. A Christian cannot remain in the flesh. They must be continually sanctified. If they don't there are several scriptures already mentioned in this thread to support that their destination will not be abiding with the Father (since they didn't even try to abide in the Son).
So basically, my advice is not to get so caught up in the theology of the matter. Salvation from sin is wrought now, so the old man should suffocate more and more. The most important thing in the entire world is to serve God in spirit and truth. When the term carnal Christian is used to deaden a person to living a life for God and a license to sin its a doctrine of the devil.
Besides...
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Rom 8:7
The word is being misused because people want to justify their love for the world. But Jesus says that friendship with the world is enmity with God. Fleshly people will not inherit the kingdom of God. We are to be reborn, walking in the spirit not by the flesh.
I don't know much about greek. I do know that when I look at the strong numbers at blueletterbible.org, there are two different numbers. Here they are for your edification-
carnal one: http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=4559
carnal two: http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=4561
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LoveHim
when paul writes in 1 corinthians 3 that they were still acting carnal, he does not say that they were not saved.. he says that they were babes in Christ and that they were acting as if they weren't saved.. he does not tell them they were lost.
he says that he fed them with milk and not meat because they could not receive it then and that they still couldn't receive it. why?? because they were still immature, not because they were lost..
he's saying that there is sin in there life and it is causing them to remain as babes and not grow up.
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psalm1
Redeemedgurl,carnal in the greek translates"fleshly"
It is a biblical term.Paul used it. 1cor3:3 and rom8:6 Talks about behaving badly or being carnally minded.
ever see a christian behave badly? They are "in the flesh".....Carnal
We all have acted selfishly. Inconsiderate of others.This is carnal minded.
paul said walk in the spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
here you see the 2 paths of the believer. It takes discipline and determination to walk in the spirit.
most dont want to because of the "E" word....."EFFORT"
make sense?
David
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psalm1
Reedeemedgurl, there is a website called bible gateway. you can look up scripture there.
............David
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rookie
Someone wrote:
"your faith must have some evidence other than that to be true faith."
This is somewhat missing the mark concerning this thread. Paul writes that babes in Christ are prone to live according to the flesh. They often times do not obey the Spirit. One's faith that is based on the fleshly mind will only enable that man's works to be of the flesh and thus will burn.
However if one's faith, that is, if one hears what the Spirit says and does what the Spirit calls him to do, this man's faith is in the will of God.
Those who have not learned to obey the voice of God are subject to many false doctrines. They are tossed to and fro with the vain philosophies of men.
Only the love of the truth will save one from deception. Carnal Christians exist because they are babes in Christ.
In Christ
Jeff
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sermonindex
Here is an article by Winkie Pratney exposing the error of the "carnal christian" doctrine:
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Here4Him
I think we have to be careful here that we are not isolating individual scriptures but finding out what the whole of scripture teaches on this. So yes scriptures does warn that if we continue habitually in carnality we will not inhereit the kingdom of God, but can we take that and then jump to conclusions and condemn every professing Christians as lost because there is sin in their life?
Dont get me wrong, i believe that repentance is neccessary for salvation, but it is interesting that as has already been mentioned, Paul did not disqualify the Corinthians as non Christians, but rather was saying in effect, you are not living up to your profession, you are imature, grow up- this is not the normal Christian life!
I am concerned that some brothers who have posted on here are unknowingly erring towards legalsim and a works based religion whilst claiming to to trust and rest fully in the finished work of Christ. There is a great danger brothers of ourselves becoming spiritually proud when we look at other condemn professing Christians as carnal. It seemed too me as though one or two brothers here were enjoying quoting scriptures like 1 Cor 6:9, i dont think that is the spirit of Christ at all. I think Paul's original letters would have been smudged on those verses because of the tears he cried as he wrote it.
I can say this because i have been there myself. I used to almost take joy in condeming professing Christians, because it gave me a comlplex of superiority.
What is our motivation for sanctification? If it is anything other than 'I desire to become sanctified because Jesus loved me and gave Himself for me', it is wrong.
The only way we can become sanctified is if it is in the knowledge that we are saved and justified because of teh finished work of Christ our Saviour, and in the light of that believing that He died that we might become daily more like Him and that spurs us on toward holiness.
If we are striving for holiness and sanctification for any other reason we are nothing but legalists and i think we have totally missed it.
If we believe that our salvation depends on our being perfect, then we will be striving to be holy so that we can know we are saved. But we can know we are saved because Christ has died, and let that spur us on to fight against sin in our lives.
What i am trying to say is that is we look only to ourselves for assurance of our salvation rather than to the finished work of Christ we will be misguided.
I know some will try to pervert this doctrine, but salvation is through trusting in Christ alone, and if that has happened He will see that we go through sanctification. Even if there are set backs and we fall or even backslide, we should be concerned and alarmed but not give up hope, because Christ is our rightsouness, therefore in the light of His mercy, confess, get up and look to Him for sanctification.
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psalm1
Amen 4him,
you said it well.The legalism here is rampant. my life in Christ should be a love affair w/Him, NOT a bible straight jacket.
The "sinless life concept perplexess me.
Its not My ability to walk sinless that keeps me "in the faith",its my ability to repent.
The sinless one lives inside me therefore I dont sin. BUT if I do I have an advocate,JESUS. If I am born again I am not of this world.I am an alien.I am not in opposition to the law, I now LOVE HIS law.
I see lots of bros on here that think they know their bible.And maybe they do.
WE all err. We all walk a little sideways.
But if we must err lets err on the side of love! Agreed?
......David
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LoveHim
very well said here4him...amen
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UniqueWebRev
Roniya wrote:
I learned the definition of a carnal believer and a Spirit-filled believer. The Spirit-filled believer is controlled by the Spirit of God. The carnal believer is ‘man-centered’...Oh that we would all be completely surrendered to God and controlled by the Holy Spirit every minute of every day!!Blessings,
Joy
Yes. And Yes again!
Even though most of my hours in every day is spent in God centered stuff, yet I do not yield and submit to the Holy Spirit all through those hours. I wish I could...I wish I knew how to, but it seems it is a thing worked out in the tiniest increments, and that my growth in actually hearing and obeying the Holy Spirit is a task mired in my own nature.
Thank God and Jesus that we do not have to rest on our works, but on His.
Blessings,
Forrest
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rookie
According to Scripture,what are the characteristics of a christian who is a "babe in Christ?"
In Christ
Jeff
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sermonindex
It seemed too me as though one or two brothers here were enjoying quoting scriptures like 1 Cor 6:9, i dont think that is the spirit of Christ at all. I think Paul's original letters would have been smudged on those verses because of the tears he cried as he wrote it.
I do enjoy quoting the word of God :o) Funny that you would assign motives to it and make such an unrightous judgment :o(
In Christ - Jim
Titus 2 (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
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roaringlamb
Here is an article by Winkie Pratney exposing the error of the "carnal christian" doctrine:
He also teaches that God and satan are involved in a cosmic struggle in which each side is equal, and vying for the souls of men. Of course Scripture does not teach that satan is equal to God in any way.
God pursues those who will be saved, and they will be saved regardless of satan's tactics, as satan is a created being who is subservient to God.
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sermonindex
Obediance to Jesus Christ is not legalism. Jesus said that only those who did the will of His father would enter into the kingdom, not everyone who calls Him Lord. From a contrite heart I would plead with anyone who has any known willful sin in their life to repent.
In Christ - Jim
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rowdy2
There was a battle in our heart and Jesus cleaned the Temple [our heart ] and threw Satan [our rebellious spirit out] and garnished our hearts with spiritual gifts [righteousness, faith, charity, peace, that we may call on the God out of a pure heart.. Satan is the spirit of this world that places confidence in the flesh man and not in God. Your flesh is under a death sentence from a perfect God and His perfect Law and the sentence will never be repealed. But a contrite heart and a broken spirit leads to the Door. God has turned weakness of the flesh into to victory by spiritual faith in God and not ourselves. We all know God, there is no excuse.
Eddie
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