Dr. John Piper

Hi
Can you folks help me understand If John Piper is a sound teacher,I started listening to him recently teach through Romans on God's Sovereignty and found it to be great food for my spirit,can you folks share your opinions on this teacher who appears to be very Biblically sound
I am trying to save up to purchase his teachings on Romans,let me know what you think about him
Thank you kindly
Brian

From what I've read by others online, non-Calvinists hate that he's Calvinist. Many Calvinists think he's not Calvinist enough. A few hyper-Calvinists consider him Catholic-in-disguise, saying we are "saved by faith, through grace".

For myself, I say that if you can sort through soteriology for yourself, you'll be blessed by a man who seems to love the Lord passionately.

I have been blessed by his teaching,
He really loves the Lord.
His passion is very real.
He has blessed my life in many by his teaching

Somtimes hard tounderstand but worth reading or listening to..

In his love
charlene

i strongly recomend his series called (Biographies)

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=113]HERE.......[/url]

Brother his teachings on Romans 8 and 9 alone are well worth listening to.

I would double check to see if you can't download them from here first
[url=www.desiringgod.org]Desiring God[/url]

Also his biographical teaching are wonderful food to the soul.

i strongly recomend his series called (Biographies)

You beat me to the punch :-P

theopenlife I don't understand two comments. Maybe you can take a moment to explain. You said, "some consider Piper Catholic in disguise i.e., "saved by faith through grace." Don't Catholics believe the antithesis of that--saved by works.

And, also maybe you could explain to us what soteriology means and how it applies in this discussion?

From what I've read by others online, non-Calvinists hate that he's Calvinist. Many Calvinists think he's not Calvinist enough. A few hyper-Calvinists consider him Catholic-in-disguise, saying we are "saved by faith, through grace".

;-) Even John Calvin isn't Calvinisitc enough for some of his followers.

soteriology:

How to make your brain hurt really bad and still not come to any conclusions.

any Calvinists think he's not Calvinist enough.

Thats funny because Piper claims to be a 7 point Calvinist!
;-)

I haven't read any of his books but I'm pretty skeptical of his [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Hedonism]"Christian Hedonism"[/url]

It's sort of like creating a term "Christian Adultery" and saying "leaving the world.. that's what we're referring to!"... the connotations of Hedonism should've shunned Piper from using such a word, it's just ridiculous in my view.

I'm not Calvinistic, but I do like his books. Two that are really good are, Let the Nations Be Glad and Don't Waste Your Life.

Jordan

I haven't read any of his books but I'm pretty skeptical of his "Christian Hedonism"

Maybe you should read what he means by it before casting doubts upon it. What he means is simply that the Christian should seek all pleasure, joy, satisfaction in God alone, through Christ alone.

Soteriology is an important thing to familiarize yourself with as it will give an uprecedented joy in God because He has saved any of us. To know and understand the Scriptural way He does this will leave your jaw on the floor along with much of your pride. Consider that we were all as an unclean thing before Him, but Christ...(I'll let you fill this in :)

Too many do not study the doctrines of sovereign grace and yet declare themsleves to be fit to dismiss them. It is sad really, because many times these are the same ones that think that the Church started when Finney arived, or when Wesley lived. Oh well, all I can say is brethren know what you are arguing against or mocking before you say anything,(I used to do this very thing too, so I understand) and that will carry much more weight in the discussion. ;-)

jordanamo wrote:
I haven't read any of his books but I'm pretty skeptical of his [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Hedonism]"Christian Hedonism"[/url]

It's sort of like creating a term "Christian Adultery" and saying "leaving the world.. that's what we're referring to!"... the connotations of Hedonism should've shunned Piper from using such a word, it's just ridiculous in my view.

Not really.

Piper invented a new term. "Finding your Joy and Delight in God = Christian Hedonism"

I'd recommend that you'd actually listen to his messages instead of judging him before his time. You'll be doing yourself a diservice if you don't at least 'test the waters' and listen to maybe one message or so.

I say this because he in no way promotes sin. He premotes God and loving God with your entire being (heart, mind, body, soul, and strength).

Some messages he is very confrontational about 'not trusting God enough'. And 'staying rooted in the Word'.

Although he did create a 'controversial term' but it was to probably keep people on their toes (I don't know exactually why but it's an awesome concept; just like 'practice of the presense of God')

Be blessed.

Mike Balog wrote:Even John Calvin isn't Calvinisitc enough for some of his followers.

Haha. Amen brother!

theopenlife I don't understand two comments. Maybe you can take a moment to explain. You said, "some consider Piper Catholic in disguise i.e., "saved by faith through grace." Don't Catholics believe the antithesis of that--saved by works.

In Catholicism, part of the 'works' necessary to salvation includes maintaining faith in Christ and the Church throughout life.

Don't mistake me; I believe that the bible teaches all Christians [b]must[/b] remain in faith through their lives if they are to appear blameless in heaven, but it is like this: One person says, 'a bird must flap its wings to fly.' Another says, 'a bird will fly because it is a bird flapping its wings!'

And so the Catholic spirit is that faith is an action springing from out of the old nature. The contrasting view is that faith comes from God, after regeneration. The regeneration itself, and the work of the Spirit, causes us to comply with faith and remain in faith.

Again, the bible teaches that [b]by necessity of regeneration[/b], God's elect will freely choose to remain in faith. Often they are helped by the Spirit to remain in faith by difficult passages of the bible, passages that stand out clearly when they themselves are distracted by some temptation.

But the fact is, they remain in faith because they are justified; not justified because they remain in faith.

Catholics teach the opposite, making faith into a work. I recommend others to read Martin Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. He does better than I have to communicate this.

[url=http://www.ccel.org/l/luther/romans/pref_romans.html]Preface to the Epistle to the Romans[/url]

So, all of this is to say that some people view Piper as teaching that God [b]chose people because He foresaw their lifelong faith[/b], rather than that He [b] unconditionally elected them and granted abundant faith all their lives. This hangs well within salvation-by-self, as many view it.

What is Soteriology? As defined on bible.org,

The term “soteriology” comes from two Greek terms, namely, soter meaning “savior” or “deliverer” and logos meaning “word,” “matter,” or “thing.” In Christian systematic theology it is used to refer to the study of the biblical doctrine of salvation. It often includes such topics as the nature and extent of the atonement as well as the entire process of salvation, conceived as an eternal, divine plan designed to rescue lost and erring sinners and bring them back into eternal fellowship with God. Many regard it as the primary theme in Scripture with the glory of God as its goal.

Without doubt it is a response by Piper against self-help, humanistic, 'purpose driven' theology.

Quote from "the open life":So, all of this is to say that some people view Piper as teaching that God chose people because He foresaw their lifelong faith, rather than that He [b] unconditionally elected them and granted abundant faith all their lives. This hangs well within salvation-by-self, as many

Hi Can you help me understand this?,It seems to me if Dr. Piper believes that "God chose people because He forsaw thier lifelong faith" that maybe it is a work on the persons part to be saved or it was'nt unconditional election.I.E. God chose them because they chose Him.I don't know if I understood His statement.Please bear with me,I understood that your average Calvinist Chritian believed that God regenerates the person and of course faith follows along for life and that God's election was based solely on "His good pleasure" and not necessarily based on the person.What I need to know is what Dr Piper believes about this.I will try to check his site for a sermon on God's Election.again please help me understand as I am not scholarly and just a regular guy trying to see Jesus
Thank you again
Brian

Hey caldwell,
I would like to answer your question, but I am not sure about what you are asking.

I don't think Piper would say anything about God choosing someone based on foreseen faith as that flies in the face of Scripture, as well as being contrary to the Reformed or Calvinistic view of God's predestination of people.

If you could give me an idea of where Piper said this it would be great, otherwise it would just be hearsay, and hard to validate.

Blessings to you in Christ's name :-D

Brian,

I am very cautious as I write this. I no doubt step out on a limb...but I will give my opinion for what it is worth, and you, through the Holy Spirit and God's word, decide for yourself.

I'm not sure how to go about saying this...but I (and others I know) do see problems with Piper. Let me say also that I have read multiple books by Piper, have listened to sermons by him, have some dvd's by him, and have attended a church that he hepled plant. I am friends with pastor of said church, who attended the Bethlehem theological college and lived with Piper for two years. So I'm very familiar with his stuff.

The main thing is this:

[u]Piper equates the glory of the world to the glory of God.[/u]

This is part the message being preached:
"Have you ever witnessed a last second winning shot in basketball? It's glorious isn't it! And if you love that, you love God...because He is even more glorious!"
"Have you ever seen the Two Towers? When Gandalf comes over the hill to save the day, it's just amazing! Why, it's sends chills up your spine it's so glorious! And to think, all of that was created in some movie studio - imagine how glorious God is!" [He uses that example. Try the same argument but with the Matrix and you'll see how bad it is if you don't already.]
"The olympics are just astounding! The things those people can do - wow. When I see the olympics, I just think of how glorious God is."

John 2:15-16
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

By using examples like these and others, John Piper appeals directly to the pride of life that exists in all sinners. If I explain God to anyone as John Piper does in examples like these, there is no one on Earth who would reject God! [b]All sinner loves that thrilling last second shot and all sinner loves Gandalf who wields a sword and hacks down his enemies in battle - but no sinner loves Jesus who humbled Himself to the point of death, even death on cross, and commanded others to do the same.[/b] This is an irreconcialible fact.
Also, Piper has lower standards than I believe is right...others will disagree...but entertainment has no place in the life of Christian. Especialy not secular movies like Lord of the Rings or secular events like football and basketball games. I don't see how Christians can enjoy watching unbelievers pridefully compete with each other while getting paid millions of dollars to do so... Piper also approves of rap music, which I think is erroneous (which I say based on much research and on much firsthand experience).

Lastly, ask yourself this question: Why is John Piper so popular? My unrepentent family members like him. Teenagers I know living in sin like him. Churches who teach easy-believism like him. I liked him before I was saved. In fact, I have yet to meet someone who doesn't like John Piper. This does not automatically discredit him, but it does make me seriously question his teaching.

One more thing, not all of Piper's teaching is bad...but who has 100% bad teaching? Not even the Devil has 100% bad teaching (he quoted true scriptures to Jesus).

I have tried to explain my thoughts, but have likely done poorly...please ask questions if you're confused.

God give us wisdom,
Nile

Also Brian, in case you didn't know, you can most of Piper's sermons, articles, and even books for free on his site www.desiringgod.org

Nile

Thanks
I took that quote from "The open life's" post before my last post.And I'm not sure where our friend got it from,but It did'nt make sense to me or probably i misinterpreted it.I'm looking at his article "What we believe about the Five Points of Calvinism"(Fron his desiring God website)and it does'nt appear that He would say that.Yet I am satisfied with His interpretations from this article.I'm glad your with me "roaring lamb" as it did'nt seem Dr. Piper believes that way,again baby steps with me as I am enjoying these biblical teachings with my heart and head
Love in Christ
Brian :-)

Nile Quotes:Piper equates the glory of the world to the glory of God.

This is part the message being preached:
"Have you ever witnessed a last second winning shot in basketball? It's glorious isn't it! And if you love that, you love God...because He is even more glorious!"
"Have you ever seen the Two Towers? When Gandalf comes over the hill to save the day, it's just amazing! Why, it's sends chills up your spine it's so glorious! And to think, all of that was created in some movie studio - imagine how glorious God is!" [He uses that example. Try the same argument but with the Matrix and you'll see how bad it is if you don't already.]
"The olympics are just astounding! The things those people can do - wow. When I see the olympics, I just think of how glorious God is."
Nile quotes:John 2:15-16
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Nile, thanks for your post and your experiences with Dr. Piper speak volumes of wisdom.As I am a young believer just learning about this gentlemen and looking for someone who is respected with a reformed perspective and has a genuine Joy-filled relationship with Jesus-Piper seems to fit the bill although I am very cautious who i listen too your cautions are welcomed and duly noted brother,However did'nt Jesus use illustrations from the beauty of the world He created to show they paled in comparison to His glory see Matthew 6:28-30 I did'nt hear Him speak those words you quoted nor was I inside his heart when I believe he spoke them,But I don't believe he was "Equating" them with the Glory of our Lord just using them for comparison to show how weak and pale they are,But again I trust your judgement on this as you have the experience in the matter.
Also in quoting John 2:15-16
What is the correct interpreation of this verse? Does'nt it mean that we are not to Love things God gives us as Idols which of course would make sense anyway.I.E.I love my wife and Children but hopefully not more than God Himself
On the last question you would have me ask myself:I'M guessing he's so popular because he's a good teacher not that your implying this but just because he's popular does'nt mean he's bad Charles Stanley is very popular and at least I think he's a good teacher.Maybe it's none of my business but praise God your unrepentant family members listen to him I dont know why they would but I cant get my Dad,sister,aunts uncles anybody to listen to him or anybody I wish I were in your shoes in that respect.If you have yet to meet someone who does'nt like John Piper it sound like your blessed with all Christian friends,I'd like to have some of those friends.I live in Massachusetts and I cant get anybody to listen to anything except my wife and children.Thank you for your help Nile
Love in Christ
Brian
:-)

Brother Brian,
There are many wonderful teachers from a Reformed perspective that have been of tremendous help and encouragement to me in my walk. Joel Beeke is one I would reccomend, you can search for him on Sermonaudio.com.

I highly reccomend giving this page a look

[url=http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Audio-and-Multimedia/]Monergism Multimedia[/url]

These are mostly MP3's, and can be downloaded to listen to.

Paul Washer is also a wonderful preacher from the Reformed belief, and one who the Lord used to start me down the road towards Reformed and Calvinistic Theology.

I would also highly(maybe more than any other thing) reccomend you listen to The Whitehorse Inn

[url=http://www.whitehorseinn.org/]Whitehorse Inn[/url]

Brian, it sounds like you've got a good handle on the situation brother!

The analogies he gives are definitely true in a sense - God is more awesome than anything in the world! Piper may very well be teaching something that is true, but since I don't know his heart either I can only speak from my experience and what impression his teachings have left on me (being as darkened in heart as I am).
Let me also say that I would take John Piper over Rick Warren 10 times out of 10 :-D

To know that my remarks have been dully noted makes my night, hehe.

With true love from God!
Nile

Hi Brian!

I consider myself a armeniast, yet I have all the respect for Dr. John Piper. Why? because he has a passion for the Glory of God. I have heard him preach at his church a few times, and read his book on prayer and fasting and have read a few shorter works of his.

His emphasis on Christ is very good. So what you get is biblical teaching that allows you to repsond to the person of christ rather then psychology which gives no lasting power. Thats what seperates Piper from a lot of other preachers.

Also his Christian Hedonism really spoke to me about the awesome pleasure of God. It does not negate suffering... Piper teaches about that as well. Simply stated we should be overjoyed that we know Christ.... oh how marvelous this is, to know The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, what wonderful pleasure.

Some calvanist are so pre-occupied about everybody beleivng exactly what they beleive they don't talk about Christ very much. Piper is not one of those.. his Center of teaching is on the person of Christ and the Cross from what i have 1st hand heard.

Obviously he is not perfect, but seeing him first hand preach I noticed a genuine zeal for Christ which encouraged my heart to read scripture and pray.

To me this is acid test of Good teachers, they cause you to thirst and hunger after christ and his word. You desire to read about God and pray with him when your finished. This is why I never stop listening to Leonard Ravenhill. FRom the first time I heard him, my spirit within me beginning longing for more prayer. Consistent listening to his sermons has conistently whetted my appetite for prayer. In my humble opinion 'teaching' was not really his first aim, he was more of a preacher 1st, teacher 2nd. People would necessarily listen to him for his theology. Piper is very interesting, I beleive he is a very gifted teacher, he is able to take sections of scripture and teach you some of the meaning behind the words. I think people like him because he is excited what he is talking about. His teaching causes me to Glory that we serve such a wonderful God.

anyways, he gets thumbs up from me.

Dave

Mile said: If I explain God to anyone as John Piper does in examples like these, there is no one on Earth who would reject God!

That's the point. God isn't someone to run away from instead He is someone to run towards to.

Pastor Bob Coy has this style of evangelism as well. He is a Calvary Chapel pastor in Fort Lauderdale Florida.

Boy Coy refers to it as 'taste and see the Lord is good.' (Ps. 34:8)

I believe this is biblical evangelism. Because today we hear 'turn or burn' but there is no grace or love or humility in their preaching. No real 'drawing or wooing' to God. No courtship time before the marriage. No friendship before marriage. If you have no friendship or courtship before a marriage, exspect divorce. (Now, I'm not saying this is absolute but I believe it's why you see a 'falling away' because their is no friendship/courtship to Christ; or in biblical terms, preparing the soil and sowing a seed)

(I'm speaking more generally now)
Revival by too many on this website, and I try to say this with as much love as possible, is making people feel like crap. In other words, Revival in many people's mind is doing the work of God without God.

The bible says 'For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, [u]peace[/u] and [b]joy[/b] in the Holy Spirit,' (Rom. 14:17) If the kingdom is peace and joy, why don't we preach that and display that? Yes, it's holiness but that's ONLY 33%.

Many people look at Spurgeon and Wesley and wish we were them. Well, Spurgeon had an orphanage and loved on them (the children). Do you aspire to do this as well or just preach the 'hell fire and brimstone' messages?

Wesley loved his wife, even though she treated him worse than dirt. Is your mantality, "I'll show my wife, if she is ever like that"?

Watch yourself.(This is a general statement [u]not[/u] to Nile) That you've rejected the GREATEST commandments for what you perceive as 'holiness'. Don't forget Christ said the GREATEST two commandments were "Love God and Love others" [b]not[/b] "Preach the Truth and Show them their sin".

Also, Piper has lower standards than I believe is right...others will disagree...but [u]entertainment has no place in the life of Christian. Especialy not secular movies like Lord of the Rings or secular events like football and basketball games.[/u] I don't see how Christians can enjoy watching unbelievers pridefully compete with each other while getting paid millions of dollars to do so... [u]Piper also approves of rap music,[/u] which I think is erroneous (which I say based on much research and on much firsthand experience).

This sounds like an 'escapism' belief. Christ doesn't call the healthy but the sick. Don't forget that non-believers don't go to church, they go to worldly event.

But about the 'entertainment' side of things. If the kingdom of God is part joy and it's within you (Luke 17:21). Then, with those two things. Don't you think that their can be joy anywhere? I believe God likes laughter and joy, if not then why would He say the kingdom is joy (Rom. 14:17)?

So, God likes entertainment but to put it as an idol, that is a problem. I think Piper has a good balance of that, I've listened to a few of his messages about addressing this problem. He is like 'the point of Christian Hedonism isn't about finding your delight in things but instead God through things, places and events.' Again, his term (Christian Hedonism) means a lot of things, non-contrary. The definition/quote was to address the problem not it's solo definition. It's mainly about lifting up Christ.

Oh, and Lord of the Rings wasn't founded secular. It was an allegory about Christ. The ring symbolizes sin. It's easy to talk about Christ when you have something someone can relate to (John 4).

Why is John Piper so popular? [u]My unrepentent family members like him.[/u] Teenagers I know living in sin like him. Churches who teach easy-believism like him. I liked him before I was saved. In fact, I have yet to meet someone who doesn't like John Piper. This does not automatically discredit him, but it does make me seriously question his teaching.

Praise God! They are hearing the message of Christ.

[b]If[/b] you think people 'liking' believers is "wrong" sorry but that idea isn't biblical. Check Acts 2:47 and Acts 3:11 *(Out of the people that hated the church it was mainly the religious leaders of the day and the government leaders because the church was gaining tremendous influence, more than the government and religious/godless system. Also, I believe their is a Scripture that they wanted to kill Jesus because 'everyone would believe' if He stayed alive; I couldn't find it.)*

We are called to be salt and Salt is something most people use. But if you get enough salt. You'll want the Water that will make you never thirst again. I don't believe being a Christian is a 'calling to make people feel uncomfortable' but [u]instead 'to see the face, word, and actions of Christ'.[/u] Or as Bob Coy says, "Taste and See the Lord [b]is Good[/b]". (Side note; I don't go to his church, it would be a 4 hour drive to it. :-P But I listen to him on podcast)

Dave said
Some calvanist are so pre-occupied about everybody beleivng exactly what they beleive they don't talk about Christ very much. Piper is not one of those.. his Center of teaching is on the person of Christ and the Cross from what i have 1st hand heard.

Amen. That's why I like Piper so much. Amen! Let us all press on toward the heavenly calling.

So, all of this is to say that some people view Piper as teaching that God chose people because He foresaw their lifelong faith, rather than that He [b] unconditionally elected them and granted abundant faith all their lives. This hangs well within salvation-by-self, as many view it.[/b]

1) " . . . God chose people because He foresaw their lifelong faith . . . "

My belief: God after seeing the beginning to end made a judgment that those people who stood for Him until the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22b (KJV) but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Romans 8:29-30 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2) " . . . rather than that He [b] unconditionally elected them and granted abundant faith all their lives. This hangs well within salvation-by-self, as many view it.".[/b]

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is not given in a vacuum. It looks for faith for it to be given. Grace is a gift in a sense that it can not be bought & can not be worked for.

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[b]The problem with the understanding of "salvation by grace" is that people think that it's all God's work. Salvation by grace is God's work plus man's responsibility (I did not say "plus man's work").[/b] Man's responsibility is to do the work that God laid for him. But who will empower man to do it? God will but it is man's free will/choice to do or not to do the work laid for him by God. [b]Since it is God who will empower man, then it is still God's grace not man's own work.[/b]

Revelation 19:8 (KJV) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

This passage says righteousness of saints not righteousness of Jesus; cross reference to 1Jn3:7

1 John 3:7 (KJV) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Imputed righteousness is the righteousness we receive when we get born-again. This enables us to have fellowship with God. This enables God to work in us.

Romans 1:17 (KJV) For therein is the [b]righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith[/b]: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Matthew 3:15 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us [b] to fulfil all righteousness. [/b] Then he suffered him.

Imparted righteousness is our righteous acts in obedience to Him; our righteous & holy life lived for Him & through Him.

You have your own standards; we have standards; the world has standards. Do you think God has no standard? God does not saved people anyhow; as we say here in Singapore "anything can" meaning anything is ok. He has standard & requirements. As I always teach, God standard is holiness / purity & righteousness. [b]God does not save unconditionally.[/b]

Deuteronomy 10:12-13 (KJV) 12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

[u][b]ON A SIDE NOTE:[/b][/u]

Revelation 17:14 (KJV) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

In my own terms, the three stages of our fellowship with God:

1) Called. Everybody is called to salvation but not all will be saved. Those only who will qualify. To qualify is to receive God as their Lord & Saviour.

2) Chosen. Among the qualified "called ones" some will be chosen to serve God in a deeper level. The choosing of God is not at random; again we have to qualify. To qualify is to be responsible to the talents/works given/laid to us.

3) Faithful. These are the people who qualified in the "chosen" stage.

To mention a few:

Called & Chosen: Samson, Saul & Solomon

Called, Chosen & Faithful: Abraham, Moses & David

In a believer's walk with God, we can be ZERO FRUITFULNESS

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 (KJV) 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

or THIRTY, SIXTY OR HUNDREDFOLD FRUITFULNESS

Matthew 13:8 (KJV) But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

A testimony I heard from a pastor. A certain pastor was praying and he said to the Lord "I am glam am producing fruit thirtyfold." And God responded "That is NEGATIVE SEVENTY."

God sees it differently. [b]
Is it possible to do hundredfold? Yes, the passage says so "some produced hundredfold."[/b]

Acts 13:22 (KJV) And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them [b]David[/b] to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which [b]shall fulfil all my will. [/b]

I'm surprised that no one has brought up this aspect of John Piper yet.

I've got no idea who produced it, but once you hear it, you'll never think of the reformed view of Total Depravity the same way again regardless of whether you agree or disagree.

[url=http://www.foolishblog.com/extras/piperisbad.mp3]John Piper is BAD![/url]

Nile wrote:

John 2:15-16
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

[b]...but entertainment has no place in the life of Christian. [/b]

I have tried to explain my thoughts, but have likely done poorly...please ask questions if you're confused.

God give us wisdom,
Nile

Nile,

I am one those that disagree with your statement about entertainment. I think that there are basically two general forms of entertainment:

I was going to try and "name" the two different types of entertainment, but my brain ain't thinking well enough, right now. lol.

Entertainment #1: Entertainment becomes an idol. The person spends the majority of his time or life filling his mind and heart with lusts of the flesh that consume him (i.e. television, movies, bars, concerts, clubs, sports games, etc.) so much so that it essentially (or totally) replaces God. This certianly is the wrong form of entertainment for anyone, including Christians, to have.

Entertainment #2: Celebrating, or having fun in moments of life that create memories and wonderful fellowship experiences, whether it is between the individual and God, or the individual and others.

Nile, you cannot deny the fact that there were certian forms of entertainment throughout Scripture. There was feasting, dancing, drinking, singing, and I'm sure other forms that I'm just not thinking about right now. Think upon the parable of the prodigal son, spoken to the people by Jesus himself. The father of the prodigal son entertained his son by celebrations of a feast, eating a fat calf, singing and music, and dancing.

Most of the following holidays have been celebrated prior to, and during Jesus' 33 years on this earth:

Shabbat
Shabbat is considered the most important of all Jewish holidays. It is the day of rest and weekly observance of God's completion of creation. Starting on Friday night an hour before sunset, it lasts for 25 hours until sunset on Saturday night.

Rosh HaShanah
During the fall with the days begin to shorten and the leaves begin to change, Jewish tradition encourages us to look inward as we prepare for the New Year ahead. The Jewish New Year (Rosh Hashanah) is a festival marked by festive meals with foods symbolizing our hopes for the new year—such as apples dipped in honey for a sweet new year and pomegranates for a year of plenty—and a day spent in prayer or quiet meditation.

Sukkot
This seven–day festival celebrates the fall harvest and also commemorates the time when the Hebrews dwelt in the Sinai wilderness on their way to the Promised Land of Israel. The holiday is celebrated by building (and then dwelling in) ceremonial huts called Sukkot, waving of four different plant species (palm, myrtle, willow and citron), and many food-filled festive gatherings in the Sukkah.

Shemini Atzeret
This holiday literally means the “8th day of assembly” and it is a festival day after the week-long festival of Sukkot. It is marked by the annual prayer for rain recited in synagogue. In Israel and in liberal (Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal) communities outside of Israel it is combined with the holiday of Simchat Torah.

Simchat Torah
Simchat Torah marks the end and the beginning of the annual Torah reading cycle. Every week all over the world, the same Torah portion is read in Jewish communities. On Simchat Torah the cycle ends and begins again. This is accompanied by parading the Torah scrolls about and with much singing and dancing.

Hanukkah
This beloved 8–day Jewish winter festival celebrates the miracle of a small cruse of oil when it burned for 8 days, instead of only one. It also celebrates the military victory of the Jewish Maccabees over the powerful Syrian Greek army in 167 BCE. The victory was followed by a rededication (Hanukkah) of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. It is from this act that the holiday gets its name.

Tu B’Shevat
This holiday celebrates trees. Observances include planting of trees, purchasing trees to be planted in Israel, and a mystical Tu B'Shevat ritual meal that includes different colored wine (from white to red) and different kinds of fruits and nuts.

Purim
The name of this holiday means “lots” so named for the lots that were drawn to determine a dark day in Jewish history. As luck would have it, those dark days never arrived, as the evil villian's plans were thwarted by the clever Jewish Queen Esther. The story is recounted in the Biblical Scroll of Esther. Celebrations include a public reading of the scroll, giving gifts to friends and to the neediest, dressing up in costume, and eating a special triangle-shaped pastry, the hamantashen.

Passover
This seven or eight day festival of freedom marks the Hebrew exodus from Egypt long ago. The story is told during a festive ritual meal called a “Seder”. During the festival, it is traditional to abstain from all foods containing leaven, that is foods made from grain that have not been prepared according to a strict Passover cooking procedure. Among the grain foods that are permitted is matzah, an unleavened bread that is baked before it has a chance to rise.

Lag B’Omer
This holiday marks the 33rd day of the 49-day “Omer” period between Passover and Shavuot. This 7 week period called “the Omer” is traditionally a quiet time on the Jewish calendar, but Lag B’Omer, which occurs on the 33rd day is an exception. Bonfires, outdoor parties and revelry rule the day which is also a popular Jewish wedding date.

Shavuot
Shavuot is the holiday celebration of the giving of the Torah to the Jewish people. The celebration of Shavuot is also the Festival of First Fruits and Grains-a fulfillment of the promise of spring. The name means “weeks”, so named for the 7-week period from Passover to Shavuot.

Tisha B’Av
An important fast day in the Jewish calendar is Tisha B’Av, the 9th day of the Hebrew month of Av. The day commemorates the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 586 BCE and 70 CE.

Tu B’Av
Held six days after the fast day of Tisha B’Av comes a festival of love! A popular wedding date, the day is celebrated in the best way possible with wine, chocolate and roses!

I think that we can begin to be a little legalistic if we say that Christians can't entertain, or be entertained in one fashion or another. Can we go too far and have entertainment become an idol? Sure, but to say that entertainment has no place in the life of a Christian, is to also shun Christ for entertaining, or being entertained. Our lives can be completely devoted and sold out to Christ, and we can still have some fun in the midst of it all.

Just my thoughts

Ben

Hi
Thank you very much for all the help your offering,I especially enjoyed much of Lovegrace's post.My wife was greatly convicted at Bob Coy's church of both God's love and her own sinfullness,Your post is very refreshing.Thank you so much for the fresh air
Intrcsser83:Can you explain what you mean by "John Piper is BAD" this is a very strong statement and I need to know what you meant,I can't just click on that link as I have both dial-up IP and a computer that won't allow me to get to that site,so can someone explain to me what he means by that statement,It's very unsettling to me to hear that and have no means of verifying the truth of it,and thank you for helping everyone I apprciate everyones input as you are my real family by the Lord's blood.
Love in Christ
Brian :-)

Intrcsser83:Can you explain what you mean by "John Piper is BAD" this is a very strong statement and I need to know what you meant,I can't just click on that link as I have both dial-up IP and a computer that won't allow me to get to that site,so can someone explain to me what he means by that statement,It's very unsettling to me to hear that and have no means of verifying the truth of it,and thank you for helping everyone I apprciate everyones input as you are my real family by the Lord's blood.
Love in Christ
Brian

It's purely a joke that someone came up with wherein portions of Piper's teaching was remixed with a famous pop song by a rather infamous songwriter.

In an interview recorded during the 2007 Passion Conference, Piper responded by saying:
Interviewer: "You talk a lot - or scripture talks a lot about the Depravity of man... and I'm not sure if you've heard the recent combination of your preaching-"
Piper: (starts to crack up)
Interviewer: "-With Michael Jackson's music."
Piper: "I know what you're talking about. I don't know who came up with it (laughs)"
Interviewer: "'John Piper's 'Bad'...But is this a Piper-approved production?"
Piper: "I didn't approve it, but I don't disapprove of it because it's true: 'John Piper' is bad. I don't know who made it, but when I heard it I laughed!"

Thanks intrcssr83,

I forwarded that onto a couple of friends who enjoy John Piper.

That was the best chuckle I've had online since the Star Wars Kid.
:-P

MC

In regards to unsaved people liking John Piper, I believe that many unsaved people listened to our lord as well, and never came to Him. He also was very popular as we read many times how "all Judea went out to meet Him", or that crowds gathered to hear Him.
Just some points to remember ;-)

Brian,

In reading the posts in answer to your question, one sees variation in the responses. So now the question arises: who do I believe? Who has credibility on this issue whose advice I can trust? On a forum of this nature it can be difficult to discern this at times unless you have been here a long time. If you do not mind, I would like to give a few suggestions of my own which will be basic and one that has served me well in my 60 years of sojourn on this planet.

All writers will have their critics.

All writers will refer to an indisputable source to support their ideas.

To study these writers require a lot of time.

To feed exclusively on extraneous writers will rob one of time which could well be spent in going to the original source for your info. Like eating warmed over left-overs continually: with each heating there is a loss of nutrients. So it is with getting so involved with contemporary writers.

All writings must reflect the will of God as recorded in the Bible in every sense the topic discussed.

God uses contemporary writers to edify his people.

Since we may not know the motive for this particular work, study the word itself! Get it straight from God Himself through the Word. The Word is brief, to the point and wastes no words, unlike contemporary writers. Saves lots of valuable time.

I enjoy reading the Minor Prophets. One learns that human nature has not changed throughout time and God is still a God of love as well as a God of wrath – read Revelation. God has not changed and we do well to respond accordingly. Much of todays lit is geared to denying the wrath aspect of God, that He is just a God of Love. Actually, if God is not a God of wrath, the concept of love would be meaningless.

Now my opinion about Christian hedonism: I cringe when a Christian will resort to christianizing an ungodly concept. It has the effect of eroding an ungodly concept to one which is questioned, then eventually accepted as the norm. Deceptive, don’t you think?

About studying the book of Romans: why do you not just reread it, read it again, and again taking notes, note the most frequently used terms, compare them with each other and in the context given...Hey, you know what? if you do this you just might soon know more then John Piper! Really! no kidding!

Hope this helps….

ginnyrose

I found the passage-in-question. (the one that was quoted on a certain Calvinist site, claiming erroneous doctrine on the part of John Piper.) It is in the section called "what we believe about the five points" on DesiringGod.org.

God justifies us on the first genuine act of saving faith, but in doing so he has a view to all subsequent acts of faith contained, as it were, like a seed in that first act.

What we are trying to do here is own up to the teaching of Romans 5:l, for example, that teaches that we are already justified before God. God does not wait to the end of our lives in order to declare us righteous. In fact, we would not be able to have the assurance and freedom in order to live out the radical demands of Christ unless we could be confident that because of our faith we already stand righteous before him.

Nevertheless, we must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience which comes from faith. The way these two truths fit together is that we are justified through our first act of faith because God sees in it (like he can see the tree in an acorn) the embryo of a life of faith. This is why those who do not lead a life of faith with its inevitable fruit of obedience simply bear witness to the fact that their first act of faith was not genuine.

Personally, I do not think Piper was saying "God elected them because of their subsequent acts of faith", but rather, "The condition of final salvation is persevearance, but they were able to do that because they were elected and regenerated in the first place." Am I wrong?

Much love, friends of constant fellowship,

Now my opinion about Christian hedonism: I cringe when a Christian will resort to christianizing an ungodly concept. It has the effect of eroding an ungodly concept to one which is questioned, then eventually accepted as the norm. Deceptive, don’t you think?

How about we actually examine the teaching itself rather than merely "judging a book by it's cover" (or in this case, title).

Here's one of his seminar presentations where he gives a brief, yet thorough explanation of what Christian Hedonism actually is.

[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/download.php?file=/media/audio/conferences/regional2005/session1_32k.mp3]When I Don't Desire God: How to Fight for Joy[/url]

I am not coming with a “health, wealth and prosperity” gospel, or a “health, wealth and prosperity” mission. I am not bringing the message that Christ will make you healthy, Christ will make you wealthy, Christ will make you prosperous, in this life so that you can have joy. That’s not my message. I am bringing you a message that Christ will give himself so that you don’t need health, wealth and prosperity in order to be happy, but you can have so much invincible joy in the durable Christ that you can give up health, wealth and prosperity in the sacrifices of love if God so calls.

I have to admit that or me, his explanation of God's glory was VERY convicting while at the same time being a refreshment in light of all the man-centred properity preaching that is filling our churches.

Also bear in mind that a lot of his teaching is - by his own free admission and intent - based on the theology of Jonathan Edwards.

"the greatest news I have ever heard is that the sins I will commit next monday are already forgiven"!!

...what's wrong with this view?

Paul

p.s. it's important to read and hear his statements in its context, just as we need to read our Bibles in its context.

Just because someone is well liked or well loved in the public eye does not necessarily mean they are wrong--

take Charles Spurgeon for example

When he died the funeral procession was 2 miles long,consisting of men and women of all social classes and economic conditions; there were over one hundred thousand people participating in the memorial service and all of London ceased it's activities. Spurgeon was well loved!

On another point, I have a hard time believing that anyone goes through any day without sinning. Not that we use that as an excuse to plan on sinning, but we are not perfect and we do fall. As much as we'd like to think we are so righteous and good- we are not.

Until we see ourselves for what we are- wretched and undeserving, we will never experience revival- personal or corporate. We will not understand the mercy and compassion of the Lord and we will forever be demanding that others meet a standard that we ourselves cannot meet.

Though we may have given up and overcome major outward, obvious sins- I know for myself that I am still wretched when I catch myself having wrong motives about anything, when I talk to my husband or children in a disrespting tone, when I get sinfully angry (maybe someone cut me off in the car) even if it is for 1 minute or 30 seconds-- it is still sin. When I think wrong thoughts about someone. When I catch myself thinking i am better than someone else. These are all sins.

John Piper is not perfect and i know I am not. Just when I think I have 'arrived' at some new level of holiness, the Lord rips off my prideful rose-colored glasses and exposes how wretched I still am. I am soooooo thankful for His mercy and patience as He continues to change me and grow me day by day. I know John Piper is grateful for that same mercy and grace. He has a passionate heart for the Lord and for his glory- there is no doubt about that.

Has anyone ever heard him speak about 'not wasting your life' [url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/MediaPlayer/1858/Audio/]Don't Waste Your Life[/url]. It has changed many people's lives. He encourages believers not to settle for the amercian dream, not to settle for comfortable, or comfortable retirement.

You can also see his 1-3 minute [url=http://www.desiringgod.org/DWYL/Podcast/]Don't Waste Your Life Podcasts[/url]

This saddens me hear people criticizing a man who's whole heart is sold out to the Lord and His glory. He is constantly encouraging people to make Jesus their treasure above all things and it is very obvious in his own life that Jesus is His treasure and His all in all.

In Christ, Chanin

Just in case anyone was interested, all of Piper's books will be on sale for $5 until the end of June 28.
I say go for "The Justification of God", or "The Preaching Of The Cross".
Here is the store address

[url=www.desiringgod.org/store]Desiring God[/url]

lovegrace,

That's the point. God isn't someone to run away from instead He is someone to run towards to.

Sinners do not love God. They can't. The flesh cannot serve or love God. Any image of God that appeals to everyone in the world is false. God is not loved by sinners. They do not love His righteousness, His holiness, His justice, His humility, His mercy, His grace, and many other things. If I go to work and tell my co-worker who is unsaved (but believes himself saved) that God is completely holy and hates foul language (which my co-worker uses) then he will get angry. If I tell my co-worker that God is all-powerful and He can do such and such then he will nod and say, "Yeah, amazing!" Both things are true. That is not the point. The point is that if I leave out one thing,or emphasize another thing too much, a wrong view of God is conveyed.

I believe this is biblical evangelism.

Regardless of whether it is or not, Piper is primarily teaching to church members and not evangelizing.

Because today we hear 'turn or burn' but there is no grace or love or humility in their preaching.

I have not heard any preachers on SermonIndex that preach this way. They are all loving and humble, but still firm and uncompromising. It doesn't have to be "either or."

Revival by too many on this website, and I try to say this with as much love as possible, is making people feel like crap. In other words, Revival in many people's mind is doing the work of God without God.

Really, I don't know why you say this. Can you give some sermons which promote this view?

This sounds like an 'escapism' belief. Christ doesn't call the healthy but the sick. Don't forget that non-believers don't go to church, they go to worldly event.

Are you referring to evangelizing at wordly events? I wasn't referring to that at all.
You can't save the men from the world if your not saved from it yourself.

But about the 'entertainment' side of things. If the kingdom of God is part joy and it's within you (Luke 17:21). Then, with those two things. Don't you think that their can be joy anywhere? I believe God likes laughter and joy, if not then why would He say the kingdom is joy (Rom. 14:17)?

Right...joy and laughter is not the same thing as entertainment.

Oh, and Lord of the Rings wasn't founded secular. It was an allegory about Christ. The ring symbolizes sin. It's easy to talk about Christ when you have something someone can relate to (John 4).

Er, this is absolutely wrong brother. It's a secular fairy tale by a man who lived a secular life.

If you think people 'liking' believers is "wrong" sorry but that idea isn't biblical.

It is good for non-believers to like believers.
It is bad for non-believers to adamantly love the teaching of a believer. This shows that something is definitely missing/wrong in the teaching.

Thanks for the comments, I hope will we sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron.

"Thank you Father for this beautiful day."
:-)
Nile

Ben,

Perhaps I should have elaborated on what I meant by "entertainment"!

Entertainment #1: Entertainment becomes an idol. The person spends the majority of his time or life filling his mind and heart with lusts of the flesh that consume him (i.e. television, movies, bars, concerts, clubs, sports games, etc.) so much so that it essentially (or totally) replaces God. This certianly is the wrong form of entertainment for anyone, including Christians, to have.

Entertainment #2: Celebrating, or having fun in moments of life that create memories and wonderful fellowship experiences, whether it is between the individual and God, or the individual and others.

Yes, I totally understand what your saying, but...

...The person spends the [b]majority of his time or life[/b] filling his mind and heart with lusts of the flesh that consume him (i.e. television, movies, bars, concerts, clubs, sports games, etc.) [b]so much so that it essentially (or totally) replaces God[/b].

Many believe this is where the line is drawn, but I do not think so. Indulging in the flesh one tiny bit is horrible. You can lie once a week and not be consumed by it. You can steal once a month and not be consumed by it. You can masturbate once a month and not be consumed by it. Likewise, you can indulge in selfish entertainment every now and then and not be consumed by it. That makes it no less wrong.

Any entertainment that does not directly glorify God is wrong. Paul tells us to glorify God while eating and drinking and in all things - why is being entertained an exception to the rule?
If our entertainment distracts us from God or diverts our attention from the heavenly realm, it is not good.

Indulging in this escapist entertainment is wrong.

Entertainment that is selfish and does not seek the will of God is wrong. How many people are there that can say, "God is telling me to watch this sports game." "God is telling me to play this video game." "God is telling me to go boating." "God is telling me to read this science fiction novel." "God is telling me to go to YouTube." "God is telling me to post on Sermon Index."

So you see, I am not against entertainment, I am against ungodly entertainment - no matter the quantity.

Also, I did not come up with this view, I was taught it by godly men like A.W.Tozer, Zac Poonen, Paul Washer, Leonard Ravenhill, Charles Finney, ect. This view of entertainment has been the standard for Christians throughout history, until recently. (generally speaking)

Nile, you cannot deny the fact that there were certian forms of entertainment throughout Scripture. There was feasting, dancing, drinking, singing, and I'm sure other forms that I'm just not thinking about right now. Think upon the parable of the prodigal son, spoken to the people by Jesus himself. The father of the prodigal son entertained his son by celebrations of a feast, eating a fat calf, singing and music, and dancing.

Just a side-note...do you know of any place where God condoned dancing?

Nile

Nile wrote:

Nile, you cannot deny the fact that there were certian forms of entertainment throughout Scripture. There was feasting, dancing, drinking, singing, and I'm sure other forms that I'm just not thinking about right now. Think upon the parable of the prodigal son, spoken to the people by Jesus himself. The father of the prodigal son entertained his son by celebrations of a feast, eating a fat calf, singing and music, and dancing.

Just a side-note...do you know of any place where God condoned dancing?

Nile

**OOPS** I submitted waaay too soon... lol

NILE, you sort of answered your own question. Jesus condoned dancing in the parable HE gave about the prodigal son.

Also, David danced naked in the streets unto the Lord.

Again, if you read my earlier posts, you will see feasts and festivals where dancing has been occuring for thousands of years, even at the parties Jesus were at.

These are just a few examples, but dancing is not a forbidden thing or a sin, as far as the Lord is concerned. I can't see God forbidding dancing in his presence once we enter the gates.

My point overall is that some entertainment is ok. If you want to bring Leonard Ravenhill into the picture, you should know that he has watched t.v. and even listened to the radio. I believe A.W. Tozer even did some of the same, as well, if I remember correctly.

Remember, everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial...

Please understand that I'm not condoning every form of entertainment, but you can't throw EVERYTHING out.
**I want to make another edit and clarify that I don't mean that all forms of dancing are ok, but when it is done unto the Lord, I don't see how the Lord could look down upon that. Are you also saying that it would be a sin to dance with my wife. Is that a horrendous sinful form of passion I can't have while I am enjoying the company of my wife?

Again, it seems just a tad legalistic to me.

Nile wrote:
lovegrace,

Sinners do not love God. They can't. The flesh cannot serve or love God. Any image of God that appeals to everyone in the world is false. God is not loved by sinners. They do not love His righteousness, His holiness, His justice, His humility, His mercy, His grace, and many other things.
Nile

Umm.... so, I'm guessing Nile that you are perfect and void of all sin?

Or, would you consider yourself a sinner?

If I remember correctly... if someone can please help me here, because, I could be completely out of touch with reality, but are we not all sinners? I'm trying to remember one person in Scripture that WAS NOT a sinner... wasn't Jesus the only one NOT a sinner? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I sin and I love His righteousness, His holiness, His justice, His humility, His mercy, His grace, and many other things.

Brother Ben, I was honestly asking about the dancing - it wasn't an attack or anything! I have heard that God never condoned dancing and was curious if you knew of any times when He did. I know about David, but there is the argument that it was of wrong of him to dance like he did (his wife rebukes him). Aside from David, do you know of any times? I do not believe the feasts actually mention dancing, but I could be wrong. (Again, just mentioning it isn't enough, I want to know if God condoned it. Just like God allowed marriage and slavery, but He does not like those things.) I hadn't thought of that parable before, so thanks for pointing it out to me.

My point overall is that some entertainment is ok.

My point is that only godly entertainment is ok.
No other kind of entertainment is ever ok.

Umm.... so, I'm guessing Nile that you are perfect and void of all sin?

I never said anything like that.

Or, would you consider yourself a sinner?

I do sin, yes. I have a sin nature, yes. If I am saved though, I am not a sinner. That is how the Bible uses the word and that is how I will use it.

If I remember correctly... if someone can please help me here, because, I could be completely out of touch with reality, but are we not all sinners? I'm trying to remember one person in Scripture that WAS NOT a sinner... wasn't Jesus the only one NOT a sinner? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your confusing being perfect with being a sinner. This isn't how scripture uses the word. Consider the proverbs; how many times does it refer to the righteous and the sinner? Do you mean to tell me that all of us are the sinner in the proverbs and no one on Earth has ever been the righteous man but Jesus? A quick read of some proverbs will show what I mean. Also you might read 1 John, it talks a lot about sin and Christians. Try Ezekiel 18 too: "The righteous man is saved because of his righteousness."

I sin and I love His righteousness, His holiness, His justice, His humility, His mercy, His grace, and many other things.

As do I :-)

Nile

Nile,

My apologies for coming off a little strong. Read 2 Samuel 6:14-23 and tell me what you think about David dancing before the Lord, and whether it was right or wrong.

Where in Scripture does God say that He doesn't like marriage?????

Genesis 1 - 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So [b]God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [/b]

28[b]And God blessed them,[/b] and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31[b]And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.[/b]

**edit**

I don't think God is against marriage if he created it! Why would he compare our marriages as husband and wife with that of Jesus longing for a spotless bride, if God didn't condone marriage?

Hey Ben,

My friend Nile is taking a break from sermonindex because he is spending time with God.

Nile and I plan to get married in the future. Therefore, I'm pretty sure then that when he said marriage he meant divorce.... XD

I just wanted to clear that up for him haha.

Hehe, I bet you thought he was bonkers!

Anyways, we can all use being forgiven for the times we aren't Christ-like. It sure is tough to talk about the teachings of people without getting our feathers ruffled! I think that I can safely say that most on this thread, whether supporting Piper or not supporting Piper, are trying to protect, support, and love one another! Love hopes that anyway. Let's remember that when we disagree. :-)

Piper does condone entertainments that I don't see fitting in the Christian life. But I still read the Desiring God weekly emails, and they are pretty cool to me. But hey, we gotta exercise discernment no matter who we listen to! I'm definitely more inclined to pick up Tozer rather than Piper because of the differences we have, but yeah, let the Holy Spirit guide you and you'll be alright. ^_^ You've got quite a lot of good advice to weigh in this thread. God's peace to you all!

Am I the only one who is deeply concerned about Pipers increasing popularity? Is it because of the state of the Church today that a preacher who says such things can become so influential?

I used to like John Piper alot because he liked writers like Jonathan Edwards, I was concerned when he jumped onto the Passion of Christ bandwagon.

It is like he changed his writings to suit the popular views of today.
I do not find this true with his older books.
This is what I find so damaging is when people change there views to suit the times rather than people having to change to god standards.

Brother Dom,

You are in your right to have an opinion about John Piper. Anyone, of course, may have his or her opinion. However, the statements you made in your post are pretty strong and left unexplained.

I would kindly ask you to elaborate a little more on your statements as without explanation and reasonable arguments we are in danger of painting a picture of someone, (in this case: John Piper) that does not correspond to the actual truth.

I was concerned when he jumped onto the Passion of Christ bandwagon

What do you mean by this?

It is like he changed his writings to suit the popular views of today.

Could you give some examples of this?

Please, beloved brothers and sisters...let us be careful in the 'pictures we paint', because they will leave an impression. And when we make statements, let's back them up with reasonable arguments. And maybe we can learn a lesson here from Oswald Chambers:

Never water down the Word of God, but preach it in its undiluted sternness. There must be unflinching faithfulness to the Word of God, but when you come to personal dealings with others, remember who you are - you are not some special being created in heaven, but a sinner saved by grace.
(From: My Utmost for His Highest, June 28)

In Christ,

Paul