the hobbling stake of the Christian Church

Jake, a paragraph in your post...Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits. Christian soldiers are producing bad fruit indeed. Revival? Evangelism? Christ cannot be advanced through a compromise. And that compromise will remain unspoken and unexamined by faulty Christians, unless those who preach the Gospel of salvation do so in the full light of Jesus’ Love.In England we have a saying "what a load of rubbish"Jake i am not attacking you personally,however through observation of most of your posts you seem to attack christianity and cherry pick your views.I have held back my thoughts until now,You blatently disregard anything that opposes your personal agenda.Are your posts written to encourage our walk with Christ?Sadly dear friend I think notYes,we are all on our journeys of life and there are many a stumbling block out to trip us,please dont add to them :-?

A careful examination of scripture is called for, Jake. As for myself, I am a sojourner here. The earth is not my home, I'm just passing through. I am admonished that as a good soldier of Jesus Christ that I am not to involve myself in civil matters. What is hobbling the church is a love for the world and the things in it. I am admonished to be a peacemaker, however I do not dictate policy, America's or otherwise. All that I can say is that you are confusing American foreign policy with christian doctrine. Quite bizarre: I would encourage you to turn aside and pray and seek God. :-)

Brother-I absolutely agree with you here.I wonder how passive you are, Jake. I wonder how much of your love shines on those who need it. I do not know you personally, but your posts and replies all seem to throw out anything, even in scripture, that interferes with your ideology. One minute you speak of love, yet in one post, you talk of Calvinist beliefs as though you were one of the chosen few and the rest were out of luck. Some love.True love is ABSOLUTELY SELFLESS. It comes only from the Father and it flows from the inside, out of our hearts. Love will cause compassion and if it is real and powerful enough, it will cause us to act.I ask you, Jake, do you remember the first time you saw an incredible girl and you knew you'd do WHATEVER IT TOOK to win her heart? The desperation? The ecstatic sighs? The sheer joy that she may have brought to you? Now apply that feeling to our love affair with Jesus Christ. True love will cause us to see others as He does- the need, the hurt, the pain, and we will respond accordingly. True revival won't require policy change it will bring policy change!!! (Remember prohibition...?!)Revival requires us to be broken before God and to live out in love and obedience. And revival will come when we do that- humble ourselves, repent of our arrogance and sin and seek God with all of our hearts, and not a minute sooner.I, too, think that you should seek God, not your liberal theology. But that is between you and God himself. Who am I?

Jake, the statement "nations aren't thugs" is a lie. Ever heard of Nazi Germany? What about Japan? Look at their history, they went around trying to steal land with violence? Check into any country that practiced genocide (killing its own people). It seems you have not taken a world history class. Check out CNN.com in the World news section, pretty often you will find vicious activity going on sanctioned by governments that don't know what they're doing.If you do some probing, you will not find "intelligent" people running many countries in history- including recent history. Some people have been psychotic, violence-loving killers.

Re: "Nations aren't thugs"I suppose it depends on how you define "nation." Regardless, I'd generally say that "governments ARE thugs." And who do you have to deal with in the foreign policy context? The people of a nation? To some extent, but to a much greater one you usually have to deal with the government.Governments are generally composed of people driven by a purpose other than "the common good of all humanity" ("the glory of God" would also be acceptable, but that's probably even rarer). It's usually something like "my good," "the good of my family," "the good of my business/religious/etc. organization," "the good of my city/state/province/district," or "the good of the nation." When the good of others outside the preferred group conflicts with the good of the preferred group, guess what happens?I could go into examples as to why essentially every government (USA included!) in modern times is "a thug," but I don't suppose it's necessary, just read the news (even the biased media will do).Either way, this doesn't resolve the matter of whether involvement in military action is consistent with being Christian. I'd like to mention, however, that the only way we're going to get "world peace" in a healthy manner is for God to send world-wide revival to "Christendom" and from there a fairly large number of on-fire Christians as evangelistic vessels to the people groups without Christian backgrounds.

Our "Christian" president tells us we are fighting this war in Iraq because God told him to.I try to like President Bush, and to believe his profession is faith is real, but I've yet to see conclusive evidence. (edited)However, the only way he can have the Spirit and thus consistently make decisions in line with the heart of our Lord, is that he either be evangelized or revived, two things (as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong) you say have to wait until after we stop this whole "Christian warrior" business.By defending war and the participation of Christian soldier you argue for the continuance of the system that executed Christ.That's a very powerful statement, one that may provoke the kind of intense reaction you perhaps desire, but it's a logical fallacy, and a lie. War didn't lead to the execution of Christ, a corrupt government official (more concerned with his own safety and career than with Justice) ordered it at the behest of a misinformed crowd spurred on by corrupt civil and religious leaders. No military action was involved (aside from soldiers involved in arresting, escorting, torturing, and executing Christ, and in so doing were not fulfilling military roles but instead the roles of officers of civil law, albeit within a corrupt system).

I don't defend war, I don't understand it enough to know what to say about it. God's plans have included war, and the Bible says there will be wars, and God's future judgment (punishment), seems to be war-like also. God is in control, God is all in all, God is everything. We are just His creation, He can do whatever He wants. Again, I don't know enough to be able to make any statements about war, I just disagree with some of the statements being made, like- intelligent people are running things (history has proven otherwise, Nazi Germany for example). Personally, I will not be involved in war, I will give my other cheek to be slapped and let my things be stolen, and flee persecution when possible, and seek peace, because Jesus said to do that. I will teach my kid to do the same. I don't know all the answers of politics. Let's pray for our leaders and enemies more than attack them, in obedience to the New Testament. If you want better leaders, then pray for that and vote for a better leader, that's all you can do. Praise God we can vote for our leaders. Things will be better with Jesus in charge, not in a fallen creation, so just obey and be patient, and pray and be thankful for what you have instead of complain. It could be worse.

That's a good passage for perspective. Our Lord did not come to conquer the world by military might (as much as the Jews rather wished He would), nor did He have any need of carnal forces when it came to self-defense.If I had good reason to believe God would send angels (or some such) to take care of all military problems we might face (invaders, terrorists, nuclear bombardment, etc) I wouldn't mind scrapping the whole human military idea and just trust God, because He'd protect us and only let something happen if He had a purpose to fulfill in it.But do we have such assurance? Of His protection, yes, but assurance that He'll take care of it all in such a way that doesn't involve human participation? I'd be quite happy to hear support for that idea, if anyone's got it.I think there's also something important in the fact that Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his action (and Jesus certainly had no history of holding back when it came to rebuking Peter), but merely told him to stop. Jesus then healed the ear (Luke 22:51).How about this passage?Luke 2235 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse and pack and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing."36 Then said He unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his pack; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.37 For I say unto you that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me: `And He was reckoned among the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."I don't suppose the Lord would have told them this unless they would have some need of the weapons, and that He intended them to have and use them in certain circumstances (though, obviously, not during His arrest). It's not necessarily established what He intended us to do after His Ascension, but I think any hardline-pacifist would need to explain why this passage does not apply to us now, if they are to justify their condemnation of any military act.Just my thoughts, I look forward to seeing yours.May the God of Heaven bless us with peace in Christ Jesus,-Keith

A couple of comments:It is a very, very dangerous thing to be making assumptions about the faith of the President.Terrorism is a fact.To stand by and do nothing about it is a greater sin.Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. "Judas," said Jesus, with deep repulsion, "do you betray the Son of Man with a kiss ? "At this, Judas fell back. But Peter drew a sword, and asked whether they should not defend themselves. Not waiting to hear an answer, Peter struck out and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers.Jesus, knowing that they might all be killed then and there, and not wishing to have any bloodshed on His account, at once told Peter to stop:"Put your sword back in its sheath, for all those who take the sword shall perish by the sword. If I wished to be defended, do you not know that I could pray to my Father and He would send me twelve legions of angels? But it is written that what is to be, must be. Put up your sword."This seems pretty clear to me. Fight war, die by war. It is the obligation of Christians to work for peace, and make war no more.What version is this from? Assuming it's a paraphrased of sorts, but equally dangerous in putting extra words into the mouth of our Lord."It is the obligation of Christians to work for peace, and make war no more."Would that not include stopping those who wish to disturb that peace?

by jake on 2004/4/23 11:28:10I guess it comes down to this: Jesus gave us a command to love our enemies. I can not see any way of loving our enemies with weapons or violence. Again, I know we differ on this, but I trust the words and commands of Jesus much more than others in the Bible. And He cannot contradict Himself as a house divided falls. (end quote)Amen to that!

To get a little off the subject, God is a God of love, He is love, but He is also righteous and just. Yes, Christians should not judge others, especially sinners, because we are just mere men. Only God knows the hearts. There is going to be a time and place for judgment. If we are going to say God is love, we must balance that with righteous and just too, because God doesn't love those in rebellion to Him. Again, it is not our place to judge, but the point is He is angry at sinners who refuse to turn to Him. We must be loving, but we must be careful how we talk about God's love to those who don't know God. He doesn't love rebellious sinners, why would they go to hell if He loved them? That doesn't make sense. He showed His love towards us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, but if we trample the blood of Christ, God will pay back righteously in punishment of sins. Warning ignorant and disobedient sinners of judgment to come should be a priority of Christians, that one day men will give an account of themselves to God, and only the blood of Christ can save us. He is the only one righteous, no one else. Jake, you made a great point that we must obey Jesus much more than anyone else, because He's our savior and Lord.(this is a little off topic, sorry about that)

oilpainter, hi, are you sure about this statement from a new testament view?because God doesn't love those in rebellion to Him. Again, it is not our place to judge, but the point is He is angry at sinners who refuse to turn to Him. We must be loving, but we must be careful how we talk about God's loveif you are please show me, thanks :-)

Yes, Christians should not judge others, especially sinners, because we are just mere men. Only God knows the hearts. There is going to be a time and place for judgment.I think there's a great deal of confusion about what it means to "judge." Here's the text of a tract one of my friends distributes (we get this objection every single time we preach, or so I recall)Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged!The most misquoted verse in the Bible is probably Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged." We hear this verse multiple times a day. At Troy State University in Alabama, a professor we met even said that it was one of the Ten Commandments. Too often we have heard sincere, misinformed Christians and unbelievers alike say, "I don’t want to judge anybody, but..." Ironically, the one who screams "judge not" is often the one passing judgment on you!Let’s See What the Bible Really Says About Judging:"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psa 37:30) "With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth." (Psa 119:13) "Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." (Prov 31:9) Jesus commended Simon, "Thou hast rightly judged." (Luke 7:43) "Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? yea, thou shalt show her all her abominations." (Ezek 22:2) "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." (1 Cor 2:15) "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (1 Cor 6:2) "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" (1 Cor 6:3) There are many other passages and verses in the Bible about judging. While God is our ultimate Judge, He has also commanded us to judge according to the Word of God. According to the Webster’s Dictionary, to judge means "to discern, to distinguish, to form an opinion, to compare facts or ideas, and perceive their agreement or disagreement, and thus to distinguish truth from falsehood." Therefore, when you say that your neighbor is a "good person," you are passing a judgment (forming an opinion) just as much as when you say that the thief is a "bad person."If there were no judgment...All the prisons would be empty and thieves, serial killers, drug dealers, rapists, and murderers would be loose in your neighborhood. You could not discipline your children and teach them not to steal, lie, do drugs, or give in to peer pressure. School could not be mandated (by parents or govt) but if children did attend, they could not be evaluated as to their progress. Everyone should graduate regardless of their advance. Students could not be graded or disciplined. You could not judge any false doctrine and would have to allow it to be taught from your church’s pulpit ("discerning" is the same thing as "judging"). You should leave your children with anyone who said was qualified to be a baby-sitter. You should not bother to check his/her background. Later, you should not be upset if this baby-sitter turned out to be a child-molester, because "thou shalt not judge." You should marry anyone that asked. You shouldn’t worry about his/her character or beliefs. What if he beats you up? What if she runs around on you? You shouldn’t get so mad because "thou shalt not judge." Hopefully you can see the folly of such silly doctrine by now. The devil has been successful to push the church further and further into a corner, while everyone else comes out of the closet with their sins. Most often, those who tell you "not to judge" them do so because they are either hiding something or want to continue doing it without reaping negative effects for it. In the campuses where we have been, students say that we shouldn’t judge (form an opinion of) fornicators, drunkards, liars, homosexuals, or the like. However, they fail to realize that sin harms them and their neighbors. A caring, loving Christian will judge all situations according to the Word of God and call sinners to repentance.The church has become intimidated by the opinions of the world as they scream, "You religious bigots, hatemongers, and intolerant people (which are judgments in themselves), do not judge me!" However, God clearly commands us to judge so we won’t be deceived. Why would the command to judge be so vehemently attacked in society? Obviously, if the church stops judging and using our common sense, we will no longer be able to distinguish good from evil, we will buy into the politically correct idea of moral relativism (what’s good for you may not be good for me), and we will bow down to the devil’s wishes to deceive us, our family, and our friends.Even more disturbing is to see church leadership saying, "do not judge." Many pastors lead their sheep astray and keep them under their manipulative control by telling them that they have a "critical spirit," they are "prideful," or "judgemental," while all they are trying to do is to discern the truth. If you find yourself in such a church, FLEE for your (spiritual) life! Now let’s take a look at the famous verse that is so misquoted today and put it in its PROPER context. If we are intellectually honest when looking at this passage, we will find that it is actually teaching us to judge, not to refrain from judging! We have inserted a few comments in brackets.Mat 7:1-5 "Judge not, that ye be not judged [do not judge others if you do not want to be judged by others; everyone will be judged by God]. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again [if you judge others, they will judge you by the same measures]. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye [how can you judge someone when you are guilty of the sin yourself]? Thou hypocrite [this is the audience in the context; a hypocrite is one who is not living what he is preaching], first cast out the beam out of thine own eye [FIRST judge yourself and get your own life cleaned up]; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye [THEN after you get your life straight, you will be able to discern clearly and you are commanded to help clean your brother’s eye!].Other misquoted Scriptures:Romans 14:3-10. This is about dietary preferences, things that are not essential to salvation. Romans 2:1-3. We have the same scenario of Mat. 7. We should not judge others if we are guilty of the same things. We must first clean up our own lives through repentance and faith, then we are qualified to judge others. James 4:11 says that we are not to speak evil of other "brethren" -- those who are obediently doing the will of God (Mat 12:50). This does not apply to those living in willful sin. How Are We to Judge?1. We are to judge righteously. Jesus commands in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."Judge by the Word of God and Its principles, not by someone’s skin color, whether they are tall or short (inherited physical traits), etc.2. We are to judge without hypocrisy. "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Rom 2:3)Judge yourself first to see if you are guilty of that sin. Live what you preach. Only after you get your life cleaned up by turning from your sins and receiving pardon through repentance and faith in Jesus (i.e. you get saved) you can go and help others to be saved too.

Delboy wrote:oilpainter, hi, are you sure about this statement from a new testament view?

because God doesn't love those in rebellion to Him. Again, it is not our place to judge, but the point is He is angry at sinners who refuse to turn to Him. We must be loving, but we must be careful how we talk about God's loveif you are please show me, thanks :-)

Those are good points, Keithlamothe, I have also had that "judge not least you be judged" misquoted back to me by disobedient churchgoing professing Christians. What I meant was we cannot judge the unsaved.We can and must point out sin, and teach what sin is, so sinners know why they must repent before God judges this world in righteousness.Pointing out sin is not judging, but we too sin, and must be open about that, not just tell sinners their sins, but also teach what sin is, and we must stop sinning ourselves.I was paraphrasing James 4:12 referring to not judging the unsaved, "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you- who are you to judge your neighbor."At the same time, using wisdom and prayerful discernment, we can judge our Christian brothers according to 1 corinthians 5:12, "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."Please forgive any confusion. I pray there are no further miscommunications, and peace reigns.

To DelboyRevelation 21:8 says, "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur."Why would God allow evil people into heaven? He doesn't. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see an unrepentant Hitler in heaven next to his millions of victims? No, not really.To tell an unrepentant sinner that "God loves you but you're going to hell if you don't trust Jesus before you die," doesn't make sense. God sounds like a tyrant, and they don't want Jesus if He's a tyrant. That way of preaching doesn't make sense. The bible has been hard for me to obey, I've given up friends, relationships, secular things, etc, why should I bother if God loves me as I was? God's righteousness should be presented in a way that's understandable to sinners.Show sin, and tell sinners about forsaking sin and that God sent a perfect, sinless sacrifice to take our punishment for sin, and that's how God shows His love. You tell about God's love without the cross or His Justice, you're only telling a half-truth.Revelation expounds on the state of the ungodly, read that for more.Proverbs says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Preach sin, judgment, and God's righteous, Holiness, before you preach His love.

What I meant was we cannot judge the unsaved. I think we're operating on different definitions of the word "judge." According to mine, it's a "judgment" even to say whether or not someone is saved. Believing someone to be "unsaved" is a very serious judgment indeed, but it is one we must often make if we are to know how to act towards the person.We can and must point out sin, and teach what sin is, so sinners know why they must repent before God judges this world in righteousness.Amen.Pointing out sin is not judgingReciting the Biblical definitions of sin is not necessarily judging unsaved people, but pointing out such sin in their lives would be judging. Again, I think we have a difference of definition here, what do you mean when you say "judge" ?but we too sin, and must be open about that,Yes, we must not cover our sin. But if we are guilty of a sin we must not judge others for that sin (that would be hypocrisy). I'd say we shouldn't even preach against it in general until we have repented of the sin and been freed from it. To do so would be inviting lightning bolts, I think.not just tell sinners their sins, but also teach what sin is, and we must stop sinning ourselves.Amen, Amen.I was paraphrasing James 4:12 referring to not judging the unsavedWhy do you interpret James 4:12 as referring to judging the unsaved and not the brethren? I understand it to be just the opposite:James 411 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law and judgeth the law. But if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy. Who art thou that judgest another? Please forgive any confusion. I pray there are no further miscommunications, and peace reigns. I don't mind, I understand that miscommunication is common particularly in this format, and I won't hold it against anyone, I just want to clarify what's being said in case I've misunderstood (I'm very good at misunderstanding).God's grace be with you all,-Keith

Personally I am against war. I don't even like my son to play army and pretend to shoot people. (I think I am an Anabaptist is many ways, maybe Quaker) :-D Of course my husband still thinks it's ok and so I think we balance each other out. And that's a good thing.Mostly I think I look at things from an otherwordly perspective. I do not consider my self American- I consider myself a Christian. I am not against patriotism really- I don't get into it because my allegiance is to Christ. But I know that i am obligated to follow the laws, ect... (I am almost ashamed to be an American anymore because we fall into the pattern of Sodom and Gomorrah).I cannot control what goes on with war so I just use the situation to the best I can. To pray for God's will to be done through the situation and in people's lives.The question is on the lips of people today, "Is war of the devil or of God?" It is of neither. It is of men, though both God and the devil are behind it. War is a conflict of wills, either in individuals or in nations. As sure as there is will versus will, there must be punch versus punch.—Oswald Chambers in The Love of God.Walking with Him, Chanin

It's not a judgment if the person tells you they are not saved, or they have no religion, etc.I think getting others to think of God and turn to God wholeheartedly is something we can do for everyone, whether they are Christians or not. We all need encouragement to grow with God. Some need to know about Jesus and sin, that's a part of the Christian life.There are a few who seek truth, we should help when we can.I am not talking about evangelizing to church members, I am talking about those who don't know the church. I am an ex drug-addict and drug dealer. I have unsaved family members, these are the kinds of sinners I'm talking about, not churchgoers.

Revelation 21:8 says, "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur."I want to put that on a banner and carry it while preaching (not all the time, but if things need stirring). Either that verse or 1 Cor. 6:9-10 or Galatians 5:19-21. It'd be interesting, at least.You tell about God's love, you're only telling a half-truth.Amen. Further, the slogan "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" is flat out misleading to most sinners. Mind you, it's technically true, but it's misleading to tell it to sinners because:1) as discussed earlier, God's "love" for rebellious sinners is not the kind of affectionate love they probably think of when they hear that statement.2) while God's plan is quite wonderful indeed for those that love Him, it's debatable whether you could call His plan for the unsaved wonderful if they are tormented for all eternity. Personally I still think it's wonderful, it's wonderfully just, but I'm probably in something of a minority in that opinion even among Christians, let alone heathen. Another thing, while we would consider God's plan for Paul's life to be amazingly wonderful, when sinners hear "wonderful plan" they're almost certainly not thinking "beatings, stonings, shipwrecks, and martyrdom" as part of it.Proverbs says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Preach sin, judgment, and God's righteous, Holiness, before you preach His love. AMEN!Thanks for the comments. I think we're both reciting Ray Comfort, but it stands recitation.

:)

Personally I am against war. I don't even like my son to play army and pretend to shoot people.Even if I were a hardline patriot (and I'm not) I wouldn't ever let children I was responsible for have anything to do with violence (or pretended violence) against another human. No matter how innocuous some forms of it seem. If a person must learn war and violence, let them learn it after maturing physically and spiritually, lest the madness of it all poison the tree from the root.Mostly I think I look at things from an otherwordly perspective. I do not consider my self American- I consider myself a Christian. I am not against patriotism really- I don't get into it because my allegiance is to Christ.Pretty much my position exactly. I appreciate the service (such as it is) provided by our government, and more than that I appreciate God for keeping our country going... but the USA could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't really bother me, my kingdom is not earthly.(I am almost ashamed to be an American anymore because we fall into the pattern of Sodom and Gomorrah).Amen. We've really messed up. Sodom had no Bible, we don't even have that excuse (which wasn't enough to save them, anyway).

Praise God, Jesus rules.

Insightful thoughts, and certainly anyone thinking war is some little thing should think about that.So, my question is: Given Jesus' command to love our enemies, is participating in war a sin?We are commanded to love our enemies, and also our neighbors. If our enemies come after our neighbors with deadly force, and we defend our neighbors (out of love for them) and in the process are involved in physical violence against our enemies, is it sin to us? If our enemies come after our neighbors with deadly force, and we remove ourselves from the situation and our neighbors and their families are victims of physical violence at the hands of our enemies, is it sin to us?James 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. The real question is, if we're in the situation where an enemy is attacking our neighbors, what is the right thing to do? What is the loving thing to do? It's not a trivial question.Please note I'm not trying to directly apply to any of the conflicts currently going on, just discussing the principle of whether it is necessarily sin to participate in a military conflict. If our allegence is to God and NOT country, if our real home is not of this earth, shouldn't Christians resist such participation? The classic example of a reason to fight a war is Europe WWII against Hitler. But the problem is that Hitler came to power because of the previous war. (WWI) Germany was impoverished by sanctions and was ripe for fascism.We (Christians) failed to properly minister to the people of Germany after the first war. The conditions of the armistice could be seen as a problem waiting to happen, forgiveness and willingness to reconcile and the such were woefully absent. In a sense, the war never stopped, just the shooting. We failed to heal the wounds. And don't be deceived for a moment that God couldn't have healed those wounds and reconciled the nations one to another, but it would seem the Christians of the time didn't take on the burden of being His vessels in such a work.... the campaign to exterminate the Jews.Again, we failed. I'm sure some tried to preach against the abominable idea of ethnic cleansing, and the erroneous premises underlying it.If a war involving our community breaks out, more likely than not we've already got a great deal to repent of.The question of what to do once it's upon us is fairly complicated.I simply cannot understand Christians participating in war, for any reason.It's certainly something I have no desire to do, and it's such a tragedy that we even have to make such a decision... but where does the problem truly lie?

"All the labour of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled." Eccl. 6:7Keith wrote:"We (Christians) failed to properly minister to the people of Germany after the first war. The conditions of the armistice could be seen as a problem waiting to happen, forgiveness and willingness to reconcile and the such were woefully absent. In a sense, the war never stopped, just the shooting. We failed to heal the wounds. And don't be deceived for a moment that God couldn't have healed those wounds and reconciled the nations one to another, but it would seem the Christians of the time didn't take on the burden of being His vessels in such a work."War is about men labouring against one another in the pursuit of things which cannot satisfy. Germany only wanted to participate in colonialism. France and England sought to stiffle German pursuit of its own colonies. Colonialism is a form of economic agression. Men seeking to be filled by the creation and not the Creator. Economic aggression continued after WW1. The new threat was Communism. This new threat questioned the right of ownership of the creation. People like Henry Ford, A.P. Sloan, and the American banking system supported Hitler. They viewed Hitler as a man after their own heart. Hitler was used to stop the spread of Communism in Germany. The wealthy men of the world could not allow the people to question their right of ownership. The CEO of IBM, Watson actually was the one who provided the Nazi government with the information of the Jewish population. This information was tabulated on punch cards. Again, man sought to be filled by creation. It is so much better to be a pilgrim on this earth with the heavenly city as our hope. In ChristJeff

Thank you for the details. I felt very much like I was writing in severe historical ignorance (I know something of what was going on, but not much)... but I still didn't think it could possibly be incorrect that it was our fault that such a widespread travesty took place in countries that could even think of calling themselves "Christian" nations.

KeithLaMothe said,The real question is, if we're in the situation where an enemy is attacking our neighbors, what is the right thing to do? What is the loving thing to do? It's not a trivial question.(end quote)"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13. I don't think that means fight for your friend, I think Jesus teaches a friend would take their beating for them, just like His example.

KeithLaMothe said, The real question is, if we're in the situation where an enemy is attacking our neighbors, what is the right thing to do? What is the loving thing to do? It's not a trivial question.(end quote)"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13. I don't think that means fight for your friend, I think Jesus teaches a friend would take their beating for them, just like His example. Was waiting for that scripture. I think it means what it says, 'lay down his life' of course Jesus exceeded this in the sense that He did so for His enemies. So would that not contradict what He had just said?"Joh 15:13 - Greater love hath no man than this,.... By these words our Lord shows, how far love to another should extend, even to the laying down of our lives for the brethren; which is the highest instance of love among men; that a man lay down his life for his friends; and in which believers, should not come short of them; and also his great love to his people, and explains what he had just said, "as I have loved you", Joh_13:34; which in a little time would be seen, by his laying down his life for them: for he not only came down from heaven, and laid aside his glory and royal majesty, but he laid down his life; not his gold and silver, and the riches of this world, which were all his, but his life; than which, nothing is dearer to a man, is himself, his all: and besides, Christ's life was not a common one, it was not the life of an innocent person only, or the life of a mere man, but of a man in union with the Son of God; it was the Lord of glory and Prince of life, who was crucified, and slain; a life that was entirely at his own dispose; it had never been forfeited by sin, nor could it have been forced away from him by men or devils; it was laid down of and by himself, freely and voluntarily; and that "for", in the room, and instead of his people, as a ransom for them; he being their surety and substitute, and standing in their legal place and stead, he took their sins upon him, bore the curse of the law, sustained his Father's wrath, and all the punishment due to sin; and so suffered death, the death of the cross; the just, in the room and stead of the unjust; the persons for whom be laid down his life, are described as "his friends"; not that they were originally so; being enemies and enmity itself to God, when he laid down his life for them, and reconciled them; they were not such as had carried themselves friendly, or had shown any love and affection to him, but all the reverse: but they are so called, because he had chosen them for his friends; he had pitched upon them, and resolved to make them so; and by dying for them, reconciled them who were enemies; and in consequence of this, by his Spirit and grace, of enemies makes them friends; so that his love in dying for his people, is greater than any instance of love among men: he laid down his life for his enemies, without any sinister selfish views, and that freely and voluntarily; whereas among men, when one man has laid down his life for others, either they have been very deserving, or he has been forced to it, or it has been done with the view of popular applause and vain glory.John GillAs was well stated, it is not a trivial question. But it also may not be as difficult as it can be made out to be. Because of a tendencie to build whole doctrines out of isolated scriptures (which I am surely just as guilty of doing) we get the misguided idea that that Christians are to be pacifists/ isolationists, are always supposed to be 'against' wars and not to partake of them or any other acts of 'aggression'.Mat 5:39 - Resist not him that is evil (me antistēnai tōi ponērōi). Here again it is the infinitive (second aorist active) in indirect command. But is it “the evil man” or the “evil deed”? The dative case is the same form for masculine and neuter. Weymouth puts it “not to resist a (the) wicked man,” Moffatt “not to resist an injury,” Goodspeed “not to resist injury.” The examples will go with either view. Jesus protested when smitten on the cheek (Joh_18:22). And Jesus denounced the Pharisees (Matthew 23) and fought the devil always. The language of Jesus is bold and picturesque and is not to be pressed too literally. Paradoxes startle and make us think. We are expected to fill in the other side of the picture. One thing certainly is meant by Jesus and that is that personal revenge is taken out of our hands, and that applies to “lynch-law.” Aggressive or offensive war by nations is also condemned, but not necessarily defensive war or defence against robbery and murder. Professional pacifism may be mere cowardice.Robertsons Word PicturesAs Greg also brought up, look back to your Old Testament. This is still the same God, regardless of which times we happen to be living in.Why does God hate sin? Because it destroys those creatures that He made and loves.Is Jesus any different?I don't think so. How did He react to the situations that presented themselves while on this earth? Was it not mercy and grace to the humble, the repentant, and woe and wrath toward the proud, arrogant and hypocritical?How did he respond to the Roman soldiers that came to him?Upon His return, will not His enemies be put under His feet? If understand my bible correctly, the end is going to be the most awful, bloody conflict ever to come to this planet.What would be the point of stating "he who endures to the end"? Endure what?The reason I wanted to bring all this back up to the forefront is because of what was originally addressed here, this question of war and revival. A rather odd joining of the two at first glance, but maybe if the emphasis is placed on the right issue it is not so odd after all.Going back to the original point about isolating scriptures and building up doctrines out of them, it seems that this can and does get applied broadly to any number of subjects, too many to list. Should we not take the counsel of the whole and break down from there as opposed to building up from segments?What is the predominate issue plaguing this planet? The first cause, if you will?It is sin.And that is the war we are in.Nothing will ever be pure, true, restored, revivedor made right until it is eradicated from the planet, and thankfully one day it will be so.In the mean time and if it is not becoming more and more obvious, it will continue to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. This world is on a predetermined crash course with it's self because men are their own worst enemies and will continue to be so, because they love their sin and refuse to come to the light where their deeds are exposed.What was the Lords mission on this earth?In part;Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. in turning away every one of you from his iniquities--that is, "Hitherto we have all been looking too much for a Messiah who should shed outward blessings upon the nation generally, and through it upon the world. But we have learned other things, and now announce to you that the great blessing with which Messiah has come laden is the turning away of every one of you from his iniquities." With what divine skill does the apostle, founding on resistless facts, here drive home to the conscience of his auditors their guilt in crucifying the Lord of Glory; then soothe their awakened minds by assurances of forgiveness on turning to the Lord, and a glorious future as soon as this shall come to pass, to terminate with the Personal Return of Christ from the heavens whither He has ascended; ending all with warnings, from their own Scriptures, to submit to Him if they would not perish, and calls to receive from Him the blessings of salvation.Jamieson, Fausset and BrownIf we, Christ's Representatives on this earth are to be the agents of a revival our problem lies not in issues of war, but in issues of sin, in prayerlessness, in failing to obey our Commander. We need to first deal with ourselves and our hearts.One last item. On those who have given their lives for the sake of others. Let us remember them. For all of us as Christians we have the testimony's built on the blood of the martyrs. For many of us who live in free society's, right, wrong or indifferently, the freedoms we enjoy came at a cost, by those who layed down their lives.

I pray that God's Holy Spirit will guide my words as I write them, because my purpose to bring Jesus and His teachings into this conversation, and not my own. I am nothing, and know nothing, I just ask God to use me.crsschk, I agree that the root cause is sin, that is why good evangelism (vs. getting churchmembers) is so needed and should be our daily priority. I do this as much as I can, I hope every Christian does. We can all do little things that can impact our neighbors for God, like give away Bibles, tell about sin and God and Jesus. We can all find ways to do this, if we want to. (My neighbor is everyone, no matter how close or far.) I hate child molesters more than anything, but because I allow God's love to flow through me, I spend more money and time mailing those ex-cons tracts, bibles, gospels of Johns, because I want them to repent. (Sex offender database has home addresses.) I don't go trying to kill them, even though I find child molesters so repulsive, I evangelize to them. Spending time and money to do that is loving, because before I was a Christian, I would just hate them,not give them things. But I know one day, without forgiveness of sins through Christ, they will get hell, just like I deserved when I was an unbeliever.I don't agree with how you are interpreting Jesus statement about laying down one's life. I always go with the simplest and most basic, which for me means, "lay down your life for your friends." Matt 5:39 "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."Jesus teaches us love our neighbors, and who are our neighbors? I consider everyone my neighbor. We should exercise wisdom and discernment for who we will lay down our lives for (by this I mean God vs. Satan and our flesh).To be honest, it looks like you are contradicting yourself by saying people are guilty of building whole doctrines off one Scripture, and then you do it in that post. It looks like you are building a case to show why Jesus should mean we lay down our lives only for certain people. I read and reread the New Testament all the time, and I don't get that idea from Jesus' teachings at all. I've learned to not resist evil people, but to pray for them. To bear and take unjust suffering and persecution and wait on the Lord.I don't put a lot of faith in following Old Testament either, because I am not under Law, I am guided by the Spirit and the New covenant in Jesus Christ, which I find in the New Testament. Whatever God led them to do (fight and kill many times) was God's commands then, but I don't think we should use that as a basis for our obedience to God now. Jesus gave us commands, and they are about loving others, and teaching others about Jesus. When Jesus changes His commands, then let's obey those, but the Bible says for now, Love God, love others, teach others of Jesus before the wrath of God comes to judge this world. My life is to follow God, whatever He says is the right thing to do at the time, I do. When He orders something else, I will do it. I am fully surrendered to God, God is the maker of what's right and wrong. He knows everything, this is all His creation. The commands for New Testament, while we wait for Jesus to come back to judge is explained in the New Testament, and for now, I follow the Bible, especially the New Testament. As a young Christian, I am still learning to follow the Spirit, but because of recent murders in the news I've seen, where a churchgoing mom (3 times a week at Assembly of God) she thought God was testing her faith and told her to stone her kids to death, (listening to bad preachers rather than obey Jesus obviously) and then she got off by an insanity plea. This teaches me our flesh is so weak and can be easily fooled by the enemy, I am sticking more to the Word of God than my own thoughts and feelings. Christians are to follow Jesus and His teachings, I wouldn't follow the Old Testaments' examples for today. I love the Old, but we are under Christ, so follow Christ's teachings and example.

Thanks OP,Think you may be right here in some regards, I am stilling mulling over it. Perhaps I have put to much or the wrong emphesis on that verse. Initially I was reponding to the comment about "laying down your life" as "taking a beating" I believe that laying it down is more than that.Yet how it is apllied is another thing altogether and you have given me pause to reflect on it some more.The other aspect was to draw attention back to the original question and that was the direction I was aiming for, though it looks like I did get off track...still processing.Thanks for bringing this up.I don't put a lot of faith in following Old Testament either, because I am not under Law, I am guided by the Spirit and the New covenant in Jesus Christ, which I find in the New Testament. This is true that we are not under the law, but the precepts and principles have not been abolished, they have been fulfilled in our Lord.I pray that God's Holy Spirit will guide my words as I write them, because my purpose to bring Jesus and His teachings into this conversation, and not my own. I am nothing, and know nothing, I just ask God to use me.Amen. I am with you there, just fumbling around trying to grasp all that the Lord is saying in His Word, certainly we are after the same thing, to be used by God.

I believe it was Augustine who came up with the "just war" doctrine. He like many others for the most part look to the OT to support this doctrine. These men pick and choose what they want from the OT to support man's doctrine. We just covered another example of this same type. Remember the tithing issue? I believe Mike brought out the fact that the OT can not be ignored. He is correct. He said that the OT teaches us about the precepts and ordinances of God. Sorry for the paraphase. It is of the utmost importance that we go deep into the OT. That is truly where we find the mind of God. And even with that said, who can know His ways unless He chooses to reveal it to His friends. In terms of war in the OT, the nation of Israel is set apart from all other nations. That include the USA. Paul writes, "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are the beloved for the sake of the fathers." Romans 11:28 Now I may be accused of dispensational theology on this one. But I believe this is a true use of dispensational thought. God called Israel to be seperate from the heathen. God called Israel to destroy the heathen and to take their land. Yet God said to Israel, "Do not think in your heart, after the Lord your God has cast them out before you, saying, "Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is driving them out before you." Deut. 9:4God speaks to Joshua, "Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given you, as I said to Moses." Joshua 1:3 Then as we follow the story, God came to Joshua and gave him directions in how he was to overcome Jericho. Much of the story of Joshua's time, God went before Israel and destroyed the enemy before them. Few Jews died in those faithful times. After Joshua comes the time of the Judges of Israel. "And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they reverted and behaved more corruptly than their fathers, by following other gods, to serve them and bow down to them. They did not cease from their own doings nor from their stubborn way. Then the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel; and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, I will also no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the Lord, to walk in them as their fathers kept them or not...Now these are the nations which the Lord left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Cannan (this was only so that the generations of children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it)..." Judges 2:20- 3:2.I believe war is a time of cursing and correction for those who strive against the ways of God. This we see in the OT as pertaining to the nation of Israel. War will always be with us, Scripture confirms this. God uses war so that maybe those caught up in it might cry out to Him to save them. We do not war against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers of the air. Our weapons are not carnal, we are to use the power of the word of God to pull down the strongholds of satan. And we will be perscuted and some matryed for speaking His words. In ChristJeff

I am a 3 year old Christian, so I am still young. I don't know much. Please keep that in mind because I am not in any way a bible scholar. I love the Bible, I love and obey Jesus in word and deed, I love the Great Creator of all things. I lean on God for wisdom. Please take the information I present in that light. This article clearly talks about this issue of military service and Matt 5:38. I think the points are very good and explains things I didn't even think about, regarding other sinners and their relations and positions in life and so on.Non-Retaliation and Military 'Service'--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Has God indeed said...You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also…You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate you enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemy, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you…" (Matt. 5:38-39, 43-44)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------SummaryThere are many who label themselves as some type of "Christian", yet who reject these plain commands of Jesus. They are quick to run to scholars so-called, and others who explain away these plain commands as somehow NOT meaning what they plainly say. They will try and make all kinds of indirect arguments, and to use philosophies of 'duty to state', in order to nullify the Word of God. For the true disciple of Jesus, these methods to explain away the commands of Jesus should be rejected out of hand, and we should live to please our Master. For He does say, "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15). Each true disciple of Jesus understands that the way of the cross, is our Way. That, "For this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps." (Acts 7:57-60; 1 Pet. 2:21) The flesh says, 'I will not follow in those particular steps', but the Word and the Spirit teaches otherwise.IntroductionThe disciples of Jesus have had to live in various nations since Jesus formed His church back at Pentecost. These nations are, of course, part of the world system, or of the kingdoms of this world. Jesus has called His disciples to live a radically different life than those who are not His. Only in this way, can His disciples fulfill His command to be the salt and light of the earth. His highest commands, include that we love one another and our neighbor. The nations and kingdoms of this world (these terms "nations" and "kingdoms" of this world, as defined by the New Testament, mean the people which make up the nations and kingdoms, which people are not part of the Kingdom of God) know nothing of Jesus' holy love (agape). As Paul so aptly wrote in regard to mankind, "There is none who does good, no, not one…Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known." (Rom. 3:12, 15-17).By God's grace, the disciples of Jesus have been born again OUT of the nations and kingdoms of this world, and into Jesus' family - the Kingdom of God. Jesus' disciples, the church, no longer walk in darkness, but in His light. Jesus' disciples know that they do not war against flesh and blood, but against the god of this world and his dominions. The true church does not use carnal weapons to battle it's enemies, but rather spiritual "weapons" (2 Cor. 6:7, 10:3-4). If we truly love Jesus, then we will obey His commands (John 14:15). And Jesus commands that His disciples are not to fight back when attacked carnally. He says this plainly in Matt. 5:38-45: "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, do not resist an evil person. But whoever shall strike you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. And to him desiring to sue you, and to take away your tunic, let him have your coat also. And whoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and you shall not turn away from him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:38-45)Who to Obey? God or Man…So, what is the disciple of Jesus to do when some authority tells him to disobey Jesus' commands? What is he to do if he is living in a nation which asks him to do something that God commands him not to do? Do we have any example, command or precedent in the New Testament which will guide the disciple of Jesus in this matter? In fact, we have a very clear example. You see, just after the church was formed, the apostles Peter and John were preaching Jesus in Jerusalem (Acts 3:12-26). This did not please the religious and political leaders of the nation of Israel, so they arrested Peter and John (Acts 4:1-3). Peter and John were then brought before the leaders (religious and political) of the nation of Israel, and Peter preached Jesus to them! (Acts 4:5-13). Since the nation of Israel had rejected Jesus, they did not want Peter and John preaching His gospel, so they commanded them "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (Acts 4:1. Here we have a crystal clear example of a nation's government commanding the disciples of Jesus to not obey a command of the Lord Jesus (Matt. 28:18-20). In today's world, the same wicked command is given. All muslim countries governments command that a person not preach Jesus the Christ. And in fact, more and more "democratic" nation's are commanding that a person not preach Jesus' truth, particularly His truth of "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life. And no man comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6). They will allow false jesus' and false gospels to be preached, but not the true Messiah of God, Jesus of Nazareth as revealed in the gospels. So, what did Peter and John do when commanded to disobey the Lord Jesus' commands by the nation's government and religious authority in which they were living at the time? You will find the clear answer in Acts 4:19-20, which says, "But Peter and John answered and said the them, 'Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.'" There you have it. A perfectly clear approved example in the New Testament which teaches that there are times when the disciple of Jesus must disobey the government of a nation that they are living in, or religious authority that is 'over' them. Specifically, that when a nation's government commands the disciple of Jesus to do, or not do something which is contrary to Jesus' commands, then the disciple of Jesus is to disobey the commands of the nation on that matter, and instead be faithful to carry out the Lord's commands. The same is true regarding "religious" authorities.Romans 13Many try to use Roman's chapter thirteen to nullify Jesus' commands to love our enemies. Does Rom. 13:1-7 nullify (or modify, as some would claim) Jesus' commands in Matt. 5:38ff? Let us look at that passage of Scripture: "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."Of first note, make sure you read the verses prior to, and directly after this passage. Rom. 12:21 says, "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." This precept is based directly upon Jesus' teaching in Matt. 5:38ff, and is a rebuke to the 'kill the enemy' teachings. In addition, Rom. 13:9-10 says, "…all (commandments from God) are summed up in this saying, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'". Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." This teaching is also based on Matt. 5:38ff, and tells us that "love does no harm to a neighbor", which is another rebuke of the 'kill the neighbor the government defines as an enemy' argument.Now, in regard to Rom. 13, the simple question is how would what is taught there nullify or modify Jesus' commands in Matt. 5:38ff? The passage simply teaches that God creates the governments/nations of this world, and God has given the function of law keeping to the governments of the nations of the world. Paul is simply teaching that believers should not be in rebellion against the laws of the governments of the nations they find themselves in, as those governments pass, proffer or enforce laws which do not contradict God's commands. It is really that simple, and this in NO WAY nullifies or modifies Jesus' teachings of loving one's enemies. Now, if a nation's government creates a law that goes against the commandments of God, what the disciple of Jesus should do is obvious, as we saw in Acts 4:19-20. We are to interpret the Word of God as a whole, looking to the whole counsel of God's Word for God's final answers on issues. In this case, Acts 4:19-20 is a clear modifying precept to Rom. 13.Here are some examples to help the reader understand this principle. If the government of the nation where you are an earthly citizen enacts a law that says 'our citizens are to lie to their neighbors', then is the disciple of Jesus going to obey that law? If the government of the nation where you are an earthly citizen enacts a law that says 'when driving in your automobile, and seeing someone lying next to the road who appears injured, you are not to stop and help that person under any circumstances', then is the disciple of Jesus going to obey that law? If the government of the nation where you are an earthly citizen enacts a law that says 'each married man in our nation must come to the nation's political capital and spend some time with a prostitute at least once every 4 years', then is the disciple of Jesus going to obey that law? If the government of the nation where you are an earthly citizen enacts a law that says 'our citizens may never teach what the Bible says about abortion or homosexuality to any other citizen', then is the disciple of Jesus going to obey that law? If the government of the nation where you are an earthly citizen enacts a law that says 'every man over 20 must go to the Canadian border on Jan. 1st of every year, and punch those Canadians in the face, who don't like the government of the United States', then is the disciple of Jesus going to obey that law? Well, dear reader, if the government of the nation where you are an earthly citizen enacts a law that says 'some of our citizen's must sign up with our nation's military and go kill people that the nation's political leader's designate as 'the enemy'', then is the disciple of Jesus going to obey that law? Why is this last example different from the previous examples? Compare the command of the nation to kill others, against Jesus' commands in Matt. 5:38ff. What the disciple of Jesus will do is to agree with the plain truth of Jesus' commands, and reject the commands of the world political entity.Rom. 13 simply teaches that the disciples of Jesus are not to break the laws of the nation in which they are living, UNLESS those laws contradict God's commands in His Word, the Bible (Acts 4:19-20). Jesus commands His disciples to "love their enemies" and to "not resist an evil person". If a nation commands a disciple to hate their enemy (other people in neighboring nations), which command is epitomized by being commanded to kill them, then the disciple must obey Jesus' commands, and not the nation's command. For Jesus says, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other." (Matt. 6:24) When two conflicting commands are issued between Jesus and any other authority, the true disciple of Jesus will always obey Jesus' commands over the other's, no matter what the ramification. What do you think was the primary reason that millions of martyr's over the centuries died by the hand's of world's governments and religious kingdoms? The primary reason was for disobeying the commands of the nation's or religious kingdoms in which they were living - which commands contradicted Jesus' commands.Centurion ArgumentsThose wishing to justify hating one's enemy - which hatred is epitomized by war and the killing of others - and thus looking to nullify Jesus' commands in Matt. 5:38ff, will often turn to the examples of the centurions in the New Testament. The argument goes something like this: "since John the baptist, and Jesus spoke to these men, and the centurions (roman soldiers) were either commended for their faith, and/or they were not told to forsake their jobs, then hating and thereby killing others by serving in a military is justified." The argument might come in slightly different forms, but this is the central thrust of it. Let's take a look at this argument.First, and foremost, as the argument is put forth above, it is an invalid argument, because the premises do not support the conclusion. The first premise, John the baptist and Jesus commending men for their faith in Jesus, does not mean they approved of all of the men's works, including their sinful works. For example, God clearly approved of King David, and that in spite of King David's sin - the taking of multiple wives (2 Sam. 5:13 in light of Deut. 17:17); the murdering of women and children (1 Sam. 27:9-12); lying (1 Sam. 27:10); the unnecessary torture of captives (1 Chron. 20:3); the adultery with Bathsheba, and the murder of Uriah. Yet God STILL characterizes David as, "a man after My own heart" (Acts 13:22) and that in spite of David's sin. Why, because of David's faith, and the humble and contrite heart it produced.The second premise, that because John the Baptist and Jesus did not command the centurions to leave their jobs, again does not mean they approved of the centurion's hating (and thereby hurting) those who made themselves their enemies. In regard to John the Baptist, he was not part of the church of Jesus Christ - he was not a partaker in the new covenant - and thus he was ignorant of some of the teachings of Messiah (Matt. 11:2, 3, 11). John was the greatest of the Old Testament prophets, since he had the privilege of introducing Israel to her Messiah (Matt. 11:11). So, when John was speaking to Centurions, he was speaking as a prophet under the old covenant, not as a disciple of Jesus. John knew the Lord was using the Romans to prepare His people Israel to receive the Messiah, and thus he did not spend his time rebuking gentiles, but rather rebuking and exhorting Israel in order to get her ready to receive Messiah. Under the Old Covenant, the Lord regularly used pagan nations to chastise Israel, so why would John have had a problem with the centurion being used in that way? Again, John was not speaking as a disciple of Jesus to the centurions, but rather as an old covenant prophet.In regard to Jesus, it is noteworthy that nowhere in the New Testament do you see Jesus individually commanding a disciple to leave specific sins. He universally and generically commands all His disciples not to sin, but He did not, during His earthly ministry, point out the specific sins of his disciples or the specific sins of those responding to His grace. Even the adulterous woman at the well in John 4 is not told to leave or to marry the current man she is living with (John 4:16-21). One could infer that from His question, but He certainly did not plainly command her. Thus we can see the invalidity of the 'because they did not command the centurions to leave their jobs' argument. Let's apply that argument to the woman at the well in John 4. Since Jesus did not tell her to stop fornicating (akin to Jesus not telling the centurion to leave his job), this means that Jesus condones fornication or adultery (akin to Jesus approving of the centurions using force against their enemies). The error of this argument should be obvious. The Lord is gracious and merciful, and He speaks to people at the level they can receive (John 16:12). Jesus commended the centurions for their faith, but this does not mean that He either approved of all their works, or He approved of their being centurions.Again, just because Jesus didn't tell them at the point the Scripture records the discourse, that they should love their enemies and to turn the other cheek, does not mean Jesus condones the hating of one's enemies. Thus, as we have seen, the principle of 'because Jesus did not tell the centurions to stop a particular behavior, then Jesus approves of the behavior', is shown to be a faulty principle of interpretation. If the centurion's "job" (after he became a disciple of Jesus, and was no longer ignorant of all of Jesus' commands) would lead him to break Jesus' commands in Matt. 5, then he would forsake that "job" and follow Jesus in the way of the cross (1 Pet. 2:20-23). After all, Jesus does command His disciples to "pick up your cross and follow Me." (Matt. 16:24). And He also commands that his disciples not use the sword to advance His kingdom (Matt. 26:51-52). To be in a position of being in a nation's military for the purpose of coercively ruling over them by use of, or threat of , the sword, is NOT a position a disciple of Jesus could hold in good conscience, since His Master command's otherwise (Matt 5:38ff).Finally, and in general, interpreting the Word of God by implication from silence, or deduction from inference, is a very weak principle to stand on, especially when we have the clear and plain Words of the Master which contradict the alleged implication or inference (Matt. 5:38ff).What About Jesus' Command to Buy a Sword?Some would argue that Luke 22:36-38 justifies joining an organization of the world whose purpose it is to "defend" a nation by killing those which it views as politically opposing it. The verse says the following, "Then He [Jesus] said to them [His disciples], 'But now he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garments and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end.' So they said, 'Lord, look, here are two swords.' And He said to them; 'It is enough.'"Let us agree upon what these verses do plainly teach. First, clearly Jesus does say that His disciples could have swords, and in fact He does command them to buy a sword. He then prophesies yet again in verse 37 that He was going to offer His life as a ransom for the sins of the world, and then return to the Father. This is taught in verse 37, and particularly the end, which says, "for the things concerning Me have an end". In other words, He was no longer going to physically be with them, and thus He would no longer provide them with special protection as He had previously provided during His earthly ministry (John 17:11-12).The most important principle in properly interpreting the Scripture is context and cross reference with other Scripture. The context of this passage is NOT some political statement, nor some statement about defending a nation. Rather, it is a statement about personally defending others in our normal life's travels (Of course the sword referred to in Luke 22 could be used to defend against animals as well.). We know from Matt. 5:38ff, that Jesus teaches that His disciples are not to resist and evil person. In other words, they are not to resist carnal attacks against their individual person. On the other hand, Jesus does say, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends" (John 15:13). The implication in that verse is sacrifice for others, and the phrase, "to lay down one's life", certainly does infer a physical sacrifice. Therefore, we can conclude that Jesus teaches that it is all right to defend those 'innocent' (meaning they did nothing to directly or indirectly cause the attack against them) people around you (friends), against harm. The example frequently given is a child who is attacked as you are walking somewhere. Love would require that you attempt to defend that child from harm, and to use whatever means necessary to stop the child from being harmed. As a disciple of Jesus, I am not to retaliate against an attack against myself, but I do have Scriptural grounds to defend those innocents in my family/community against harm.The problem comes when this principle of the defense of those around you (friends and neighbors) as you live your life before the Lord in His community of believers (the true church), is perverted to justify killing others at the beckon call of a world's government. The root of this problem comes from the confusion between the Kingdom of God, and the kingdoms of this world. The New Testament knows nothing of beleivers living their lives with unbelievers - in their communities, organizations or kingdoms. In fact, the New Testament commands that the disciples of Jesus live lives apart from unbelieving communities and organizations (2 Cor. 6:11-7:1) [link to, Come Out From Among Them and Be Separate!]. Thus, to attempt to make a logical jump from defending those around you as you live your life for the Lord serving Him in His church - to joining a world's military in order to kill those the world label's as 'the enemy' - is proven to be an error on two counts. First, it is not a necessary logical conclusion from Luke 22:36ff. Second, it disobeys the doctrine of separation put forth in 2 Cor. 6:11-7:1. There is huge difference between defending 'innocent' friends and neighbors from spontaneous aggressors versus killing those whom you don't even know, and whose crime entails politically offending a government of the world.What About Having A Non-Combat Job In A Nation's Military?There are some organizations which the disciple of Jesus could not be a part of based upon the stated or recognized purpose of the organization, no matter what function they perform in that organization. For example, a disciple of Jesus could not be a cook at a "nude strip entertainment" establishment, or ever the janitor at such a place. The purpose of the organization is directly contrary to Jesus' commands. As another example, a disciple of Jesus could not be an employee for an abortion "doctor", even if their function had nothing to do with the actual killing of unborn babies e.g. cleaning the bathrooms of the facility. The purpose of the organization is directly contrary to Jesus' commands. One last example would be an employee with some boxing association which promotes boxing. The purpose of the organization is directly contrary to Jesus' commands to love one another.Well, what about a nation's military? What is the purpose of the organization? Is it to use physical force against people whom a world's government label's as 'the enemy'? Can the disciple of Jesus, in good conscience, agree with, or work to support the purpose of the organization? Does Jesus issue any commands that contradict the purpose of the organization? What about Matthew 5:38ff? Will the military accept a disciple of Jesus telling them, upon joining, that the disciple will only perform job's which do not support combat in any way? Will the military accept a disciple of Jesus telling them, upon joining, that he believes that the purpose of the organization is inherently sinful and against God's law of love? What about the commands of 2 Cor. 6:14-7:1? Could the disciple of Jesus be a part of an organization whose purpose is to use force to coerce by force of carnal weapons, the enemy into submission? Would a true disciple of the One who commands that we love our enemies, want to be part of such an organization?These questions, if answered in light of the Word of God, will provide the reader with God's will on this issue. And what should be plain is that the disciple of Jesus could not be unequally yoked with people in an organization whose core purpose is to use carnal weapons to force/kill and thus subdue a political enemy designated by a world's nation or kingdom.What About a Police or "Peace" Officer?This is best addressed with the separation doctrine in the New Testament, as already covered in the previous section regarding non-combat roles in a nation's military [link to Come Out From Among Them and Be Separate!]. What is the purpose of the police department? It is to enforce the law by means of force or threat of force i.e. using carnal weapons. While God does ordain, in His sovereignty, governments to minister the sword to keep the world from destroying itself (Rom. 13), this is NOT an endorsement of the disciple of Jesus using carnal weapons. The disciple of Jesus is not of the world, nor is he part of the world's organizations which have as their purpose, using physical force against others. Let us turn to one more example to illustrate the fact that "serving" as a police officer would bring you into conflict with Jesus' commands in Matt. 5:38ff.If the police officer is commanded by his department that under certain circumstances, he is to draw his gun and shoot someone, how does that command square with Matt. 5:38ff? Essentially, the police officer is trained that "if a "suspect" does not comply with your commands, then he should be considered hostile to you (i.e. your enemy), and you are to use whatever means of force are necessary to subdue him, including deadly force". What does Jesus say to do to your enemies, in Matt. 5? He commands we love them and thus be kind to them! Again, having an allegiance to a world's organization is no justification for disobeying Jesus' commands. Let the Lord work through the world's governments as He sees fit, but you, disciple of Jesus, come out of the world and it's kingdoms, and serve Jesus and His Kingdom of God - through His church ONLY [link to Come Out From Among Them and Be Separate!].ConclusionsAgain, one will only be able to see these simple truths if one can see a distinction between the two kingdoms - the Kingdom of God, or the kingdom(s) of this world. The disciple of Jesus has only ONE allegiance, and it is NOT to the world, or the world's nations, governments, kingdoms, organizations or corporations. The disciple of Jesus has only ONE kingdom he/she is commanded to be a part of, that is the kingdom of God - His true church. If the believer must seek employment in the world, he should do so keeping the commands of the Lord near his heart. We should be careful not to be part of the world's organizations which will place us in the position of having to disobey Jesus' commands. And the true disciple of Jesus cannot be part of an organization whose stated purposes run contrary to New Testament commands.As we have seen, the only New Testament justification for the disciple of Jesus using physical force, is to defend other 'innocents', such as friends and neighbors (certainly including brethren or children) from spontaneous acts of aggression.If you understand the following truth given by Jesus, you will have no problem receiving His commands as given in this article. In regard to kingdoms, Jesus says this, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." (John 18:36). Jesus' kingdom is presently ruled by a King who is seated in heaven, and that King plainly teaches that His Kingdom is manifest in His church/called out ones, and that His called out ones do not fight to advance or protect His kingdom. If anyone cares to examine true church history, one will see this principle lived out again and again. The true church always grows under persecution and martyrdom. When lost people see disciples of Jesus laying their lives down for their love for the Lord, and willingly being martyred for Jesus, then they are seeing the most powerful witness possible. In fact, in seeing the martyrs, the lost have seen the same, powerful witness of the gospel that one will see when looking at Jesus willingly laying down His physical life to pay for the world's sins recorded in the gospels.The world, and the worldly "christians" might call this New Testament doctrine of non-resistance, "cowardly". Of course, if they were going to be rational about it, then they would be forced to label Jesus and His martyrs the same way. In fact, Jesus commands His disciples that when they are persecuted in one place to flee to another to get away from the wicked persecution of those who walk in darkness (Matt. 10:23, 23:34). What the blind cannot see, is that there is no greater faith, nor faith empowered courage, than to believe Jesus' Words and to lay down one's life due to one's love for Him or a friend. As Jesus' disciples, we don't kill others to advance His kingdom, since His kingdom is advanced only by His holy love. And when other's want to kill us for loving the Lord Jesus, then we allow them to send us Home, for it is better to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. The world screams "justice", all the while blind to their own sin. The truth is, if God gave the people who demand justice what they deserve, then God would be forced to send them to hell. Of course, if God gave everyone who ever lived the justice they deserve, then He would be forced to send everyone who ever lived to hell, except His only begotten Son. Fortunately for mankind, the LORD God is merciful, and has made a Way for each person to escape the justice they deserve. That Way is Jesus the Messiah, and by falling down before Him, begging for forgiveness, and trusting in Him as Lord and Savior to save you from your sins, you will be spared the justice you deserve applied to you.That which calls itself Jesus' church in the USA is currently in active idolatry towards the nation in which they exist. "Service" in the military is looked upon as good and right in God's sight by the vast multitudes shuffling into church buildings. Their love for their country is greater than their love for Jesus and His plain commands as discussed in this article. Sadly, it can be said of the "church goers" today, what was said long ago about the people of Israel, "So they feared the LORD, and from every class they appointed for themselves priests of the high places, who sacrificed for them in the shrines of the high places. They feared the LORD, yet served their own gods…" (2 Kings 17:32-33) [link to Are God-Fearer's Disciples of Jesus?]May the remnant who still can see the Real Jesus and His commands, come out from among them, and be separate, and start to form His true church once again in these last dark days! [link to Are You Called Out?]

Transcribed teaching---"How many times in the New Testament is a soldier an image of a Christian? Right? We put on the armor of God, don't we? We're to be a good soldier of Jesus Christ. And do you know that the Lord would never use a dishonorable profession as an illustration for a Christian? He would never use a thief or a prostitute or a murderer as an illustration of a Christian. Thus He implies the nobility of being a soldier, it's a transferable analogy for a Christian. We are told to fight spiritual warfare like a good soldier.By the way, Obadiah, the prophet in the Old Testament says that when the Lord comes He will instruct His people to engage in war. And when Jesus Himself comes, He comes on a white horse as a great warrior with a sword in His hand. All of this imagery exalts the proper role of the soldier. Now let me give you two explicit passages. Turn to 1 Peter chapter 2...1 Peter chapter 2 verses 13 to 15. "Submit yourselves...1 Peter 2:13...submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors, those who are authorities under the king as sent by him for the punishment of evil doers and the praise of those who do right, for such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the foolishness of ignorance of foolish men." In other words, here is the general principle. Soldiers, governors, whatever you want to call them, those who are under the king's authority are sent by him for the punishment of evil doers and the praise of those who do right. They come to make it good for the people who obey the law and bad for the people who don't. The primary duty of civil government is indicated here. The primary duty is not Welfare, it's not the reallocation of wealth, it's not the roads, it's not education. The primary duty of civil government is law enforcement. It is to punish evil doers so they can't harm other people and to deter would-be evil doers by letting them know what the penalty is.Let me tell you something. The greatest need for a city is to strengthen the police force. That's the greatest need. Look around Los Angeles. People say, "What do we need? What do we need?" Stronger police force that protects people who do obey the law and punishes people who don't. And what is the thing the nation needs more than anything else? Strong military. We didn't think that when things were kind of going along and we were floating high when the cold war ended in the eastern Europe sector and we thought everything was going to be fine. And we downsized our military and now we've got a serious problem. The government's responsibility is to protect us from evil doers. And that may cause a war because the peace has been interrupted, those who are just and righteous go into action until the peace is restored. Turn to Romans 13...Romans 13. This is a familiar portion, probably the most familiar portion of Scripture on the subject. The first seven verses definitive, verse 1, "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities for there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God." Talking about governmental authorities, they're all...it isn't that every person is a Christian and every person is a, you know, willing servant of God. It just means that government as an entity is there by God's direction. "Therefore he who resists its authority has opposed the ordinance of God and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves."When a nation or when a group of people like the terrorists attack America, they have struck a blow against an institution of God. Okay? We're not a godly nation, we're not under God as individual people, but government that seeks to provide justice and peace and protection is an agency of God. And when it's attacked, that institution of God is attacked. Rulers, verse 3, are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Then do what's good. Just do what's right because the authority, verse 4, is a minister of God to you for good. So when somebody attacks this government, this entity, it is attacking the servant of God for the well-being, protection and peace of this nation. And if you do what is evil, be afraid because this institution of government doesn't bear the sword for nothing. A sword is an instrument of death, it's not to wrap people on the knuckles, it's to run them through...what a sword is for. This is a sword here, it is the minister of God.And here's the main point. The government is the avenger which brings wrath on the one who practices evil. God delegates vengeance to the government. The government then has the power to kill. And let me tell you something, if the government's power to kill is a mercy, it's a mercy otherwise evil people dominate. You see, man's worse enemy is man. You read in the time of the Tribulation in the future when Antichrist rules the world, all the laws will change and it says people will rise up and kill each other in the same family.Now all of that is to demonstrate the point that I started with. War is not necessarily immoral, wrong or ungodly. In fact, it may well be an expression of righteousness. Francis Schaeffer wrote in one of his books called Who is for Peace? quote, "To refuse to do what I can for those under the power of oppression is nothing less than a failure of Christian love, it is to refuse to love my neighbor as myself."This nation has always understood that. And we've gone all over the globe to protect other people who were under the slaughter of an evil oppressor. This is good. So really there are only two kinds of wars. There is the war of evil aggression, James 4, you lust, you have not, so you commit this war of evil aggression, the Stalins and the Hitlers and the Osama bin Ladens and whoever else. It's the war of evil aggression, rooted in alienation from God, rooted in wretched lust and desire to have something and something is in the way of getting what you want. It's the war of the terrorists.Then the other war would be the war of just protection. The evil aggressor comes and the reaction is the peace has been taken, we have to restore the peace. That's the function of government. We have to protect the people. It's not just vengeance. If we don't do something immediately, they'll bomb us even more and many more people will die. God is a warrior because He's a God of peace. And listen to this, war is a severe mercy. War is a severe mercy. But it is a mercy. A moral war, a just war is defensive. It is protective. It is a last resort when all attempts at reconciliation and mediation are exhausted. And, boy, have we done that. A moral war is national, it's not personal vengeance. A moral war is limited, it doesn't seek annihilation, it just seeks to restore the peace. It just seeks to assure that they can't do it again. And the ethics of the Old Testament by no means give a blanket approval for all wars or all methods of war. You can read the second chapter of Habakkuk where the ethics of war are laid out and God condemns people who commit wars of aggression. That little book of Habakkuk has so many wonderful insights with regard to this particular issue. It warns against nations that plunder and loot and kill and commit bloodshed and violence. Woe to those who build a city with bloodshed and found a town with violence. I mean, God in no way blanket approves war. The only war that God approves is that war either which He Himself commands, in the case of Israel where He's not doing any more through direct revelation, or that just war of protection.Amos the prophet, again Amos chapter 1, almost the whole chapter, forbids a war of evil aggression. It forbids a pitiless, ruthless war. In fact, Psalm 68:30 says, "God scattered the people who delight in war."..... " -Dr. John MacArthur, Jr.I think anyone can see the ridiculousness of calling the sport of boxing inherently unchristian. There is no necessity for hate built into the sport of boxing whatsoever. Loving Christians can get in the ring and try to outscore their opponent without any type of sin. There need not be any harm intended - which is why it is an officiated sport with specific rules and equipment for protection. If somebody doesn't enjoy the sport that is fine, but there is nothing inherently wrong with it. There are many who do conjure up hate for the opponent and act violently and unfairly, just like there are many who pervert every other possible thing in the world. The fact that Mike Tyson is who he is doesn't mean that I must become him to participate in the sport. There are many Christian boxers, wrestlers, and other athletes in the world who can compete without hate and sin (I will add that I was done more unfair harm in cross-country running by far than in wrestling).God Bless those brave Christians who have served our country over the years.

Nobody wrote:"When a nation or when a group of people like the terrorists attack America, they have struck a blow against an institution of God. Okay? We're not a godly nation, we're not under God as individual people, but government that seeks to provide justice and peace and protection is an agency of God. And when it's attacked, that institution of God is attacked."First, using the OT an our example. More than 75% of the kings of Israel were wicked before God. How does that translate to the time of the Gentile?Secondly, what is not being asked, why do terrorist exist?Ziegnief Brezinski (?) in his book, The Grand Chess Match, states that one of the main ways to control the world is to give them the desire to be like us. He states that we have been very successful in transforming the youth of the world through our media and entertainment industry. He states that we for the most part have convinced the youth to acept our hedonistic culture. Look at our own culture. The majority of the older groups in our country are against gay marriage. The majority of the youth are for gay marriage. So what is our government really promoting? Would they be found wicked or righteous?In ChristJeff