Besides Carter Conlon and David Wilkerson, are there any other speakers that are baptized in the holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues? Or are they all Baptist?
Please don't turn this thread into a tongues debate, I am just looking for names of speakers that embrace the baptism and not reject it, their messages is what I am looking to hear. Thank you.
Any leads?
The better question might be, "are any speakers on SI Baptist?"-- not many. The three featured ones at the top, for example: AW Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, and Zac Poonen have never been affiliated with the Baptist denomination. Only prominent speaker on SI that I know of that is affiliated with the Baptist denomination (even though he may now not be necessarily apart of it) is Paul Washer.
Zac Poonen was baptized and spoke in tongues, but he doesn't think that all people have to speak in tongues when they are baptized.
You've got to listen to [b]ALL[i]The Baptism of the Holy Spirit[i]Conversion and Testimony
I believe that John Rhys Watkins is also a Spirit filled preacher.
Listen to his message "The Tongue of Fire", here on SI.
You not only get a Spirit filled message, you get to understand the urgency of the hour and the need for such preaching.
As a point of interest, I heard the Martyn Lloyd Jones also recieved and believed in Sprit Baptism.
Pilgrim
I use the word Baptist in general. Baptists generally reject the baptism of the holy Spirit, though you might hear of one or two scattered throughout North America that do, but they have to disconnect from the mainline and become independent.
Baptist, presbyterian, United, Methodist, Lutheran and this list can go on and on. Tozer might have been United yet has the baptism, and if so, I'd hear him. Ravenhill might have been Methodist, and yet has the baptism, and if so, I'd hear him.
I hope that makes my request clearer.
Poonen and Cymbala I can name off the top of my head. Poonen, however, doesn't believe that tongues are the [i]exclusive
As a point of interest, I heard the Martyn Lloyd Jones also recieved and believed in Sprit Baptism.
I don't want to start a discussion on this topic but it's interesting to note that the preachers who believe in it are the one's who have experienced it. Just something I've noticed
David Wilkerson, are there any other speakers that are baptized in the holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues?
Tears of Joy, can you not read? I said, "I don't want this thread to turn into a tongues debate".I have never heard David Wilkerson preaching that evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.
Let it die!! Please
I have never heard David Wilkerson preaching that evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.
He actually dedicated an entire chapter to it in "The Cross and the Switchblade".
Brother Paul
Tears of Joy, can you not read?
I found your request quite unclear.
Do you look for preachers who have the baptism in the Holy Spirit?
or
Those who have the baptism and claim that the evidence is speaking in tongues?
Because these are different things, many claim that are baptized in the Holy Spirit, but they don't speak in tongues.
I believe Tozer came out of the Church of the Alliance founded by A.B. Simpson
Here is a shocking thing to behold, but if you have been born of the Spirit, you have the Spirit, and can speak from the Spirit as He directs and guides.
In this sense, many on SI who are not even preachers in churches preach here all the time. Some more than others of course :-P
Art Katz, J Edwin Orr (he didn't speak in tongues, but believed in the gift), David Pawson, Ron Bailey (not sure if he speaks in tongues), George Verwer, Jack Hayford, Jackie Pulinger, Kathryn Kuhlman, Derek Prince, Jacob Prasch, Winkie Pratney, and Andrew Strom.
These are ones that haven't been mentioned, who I have heard say that either they speak in tongues, or are involved with the charismatic movement.
Baptist, presbyterian, United, Methodist, Lutheran and this list can go on and on. Tozer might have been United yet has the baptism, and if so, I'd hear him. Ravenhill might have been Methodist, and yet has the baptism, and if so, I'd hear him.I hope that makes my request clearer.
Only in that it raises another question;
"I'd hear him"
Are you then making this a litmus test? I certainly hope not, it would be your loss. What I find disheveling about this is the manner of characterizing or compartmentalizing a man before even given him a hearing.
Besides that you are now setting up categories based on something that might have much further explanation and a completely different take on the matter.
I know that [b]A. W. Tozer
(A. B. Simpson wrote a classic book called "Wholly Sanctified")
And I know that [b]Leonard Ravenhill
He was Pentecostal in that He believed in the Baptism, and believed in all the gifts. But he believed the Spirit gives different gifts to different believers at their Holy Ghost baptism.
And I'm not sure what denomination [b]Paris Reidhead
And [b]Vance Havner
Lazarus1719 wrote:
And I'm not sure what denomination Paris Reidhead was in. But friends of mine who knew him said he was in the Moral Government camp theologically, which subscribed to Finneys theological teachings. Paris originally was in Baptist Churches I believe. And I think he spoke in tongues.
I had some previous researched scripture notes on this subject but did not locate them I will summarize lightly from memory and scripture passages. The Bible talks on tongues in three different ways.
The first:
Other tongues
Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV
1 Cor 14:21
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
KJV
My thoughts this was done to get the gospel message to all languages. God does whatever he needs to do get his word all nations.
It is still done in a sense today when we translate the Bible into ll languages.
Unknown Tongues
1 Cor 14:2
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
KJV
1 Cor 14:4
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
KJV
1 Cor 14:13-14
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
KJV
1 Cor 14:13-14
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
KJV
1 Cor 14:19
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV
1 Cor 14:27-28
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
KJV
with tongues
1 Cor 14:39
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
KJV
new tongues
Mark 16:17
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
KJV
When we witness about Jesus we are speaking in new tongues. We are a new creation, old things have passed away all things have become new.
We don't say the things we used to say.
As far as someone having a prayer language to God even though I don't have one I would say "nothing is impossible with God" and with God all things are possible". I am a member of a baptist church but my membership card to a local body don’t get the cigar. Am I HIS CHILD. Do I know HIM. Have accepted Jesus and made HIM Lord of my life? That is the saving grace.
The resolution that was passed not long ago about tongues is getting into dangerous territory. But I would also say if anyone leads people to believe that anything they do in any manner comes from God they better make sure that it indeed came from God if they do it. As I said God can do anything in anyway he chooses. Who am I to say any different?
I have never heard David Wilkerson preaching that evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.
Read his book, "The Cross & The Switchblade" :)
Compliments,Lester summerall was a great man of God and might have books on the baptism of the holy spirit.He recieved wigglesworth's annointing/mantle.he wrote numerous books.Lorie wilkie has a book "the costly annointing" which would be helpfull.
If you listen to Poonen you will be hamstrung, and prohibited from some of the extremely annointed books out there.
The Spirit of God will lead you and once you estaablish a flow of annointing in your life, man and his psycological reasoning will be a legitamate negative in your walk.
I would emplore you to step outside si in your quest for the annointing.
The reason David would not harm Saul is he knew he would harm his own annointing.we need to be carefull of our own attitudes toward others as we could cut off the flow of God into our lives.
Poonen does not understand this principle.
the quest for the annointing is an awesome thing. You shouldnt let ANYONE stand in your way.
as with anything you recieve from God it will come through faith.
The crazy wacky charasmatics have the best books on the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
...........David
Read his book, "The Cross & The Switchblade"
Yes, you are right, I have read the book long time ago, I think even in "Run baby run" by Nicky Cruz this subject is mentioned, but my emphasize was on his [i]preaching
check out audio sermons by BH Clendennen, (on this site,) and at the International School of Christ, http://www.schoolofchrist.org/media/a1_index.html
Pastor Clendennen has a whole series of material on the Holy Ghost in particular, and other important things in text format, free. Each text file is only about 3 to 4 pages, and power packed. If you would like to have them, they are posted on his web site, but you have to hunt for them via the site index. It's a laborious process of copy and paste, but it's free. If you wish, you can download the whole file. I've already went through this process, and have all 156 text files on my pc, neatly organized. It's the material for the School of Christ, and if it were not very convicting, very challenging, and very true, I would not have bothered to do this. The material is in open office (odt) format. If you do not have the Open Office (free) office and document software, you will not be able to open the files.) Pastor Clendennen is in his late 80's, is a friend of David Wilkerson's. I also highly recommend John Rhys Watkins, (also on this site), Teresa Conlon, Leonard Ravenhill, Neil Rhodes, just to name a few. You may download the file and it's free, here:
[url=http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/2/727206/BH%20Clendennen.zip]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/2/727206/BH%20Clendennen.zip[url=http://www.openoffice.org/]http://www.openoffice.org/
Kathleen1,
Thank you for the links... concerning reading open office files (odt), you can download textmaker viewer from www.officeviewers.com
In Christ,
Fernando
This is a good thread... thanks. I would recommened that we keep a balance in our teachers. Washer and Wilkerson are two of my favorites.
In Christ - Jim
We do love our catagories...
If you listen to Poonen you will be hamstrung,
I would emplore you to step outside si in your quest for the annointing.
The reason David would not harm Saul is he knew he would harm his own annointing.
Nonsense. And what you are forwarding here is only more self-seeking, and self-aggrandizement.
[i]But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after ...
we need to be carefull of our own attitudes toward others as we could cut off the flow of God into our lives.
Poonen does not understand this principle
Leonard from the average Pentecostal Holiness Churches is that he did not speak in tongues.
I read this and had to giggle a bit. :-P Most classical Pentecostals I have ever known identify themselves almost exclusively by their speaking in tongues as initial evidence. That is not as much true to day- but many times I have heard the statement, "If we take tongues out of the church we need to take Pentecost off of the doorpost." ;-)
First let me say that I understand entirely what this thread was [u]intended
So in light of the direction it is going let me say that it does not matter at all whether this pastor or that denomination preaches or teaches the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking with tongues. The scriptures are very clear that tongues are one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit who gives it as He wills.
As I've said in another thread there is absolutely no scriptural reference for the gifts of the Holy Spirit expiring in THIS lifetime. It would seem wierd to me that Paul would go into such pains to explain the gifts and the need for order if those gifts were not to continue beyond the apostles.
I heard a very well respected bible teachers say that because evidence of the manifestation diminish toward the end of the book of Acts, that that was indicative of the gifts ceasing with the apostles. With all due respect, that's just human reasoning.
There's in no scripture in the bible that says nor intimates that these gifts are done away with. Yes, faith, hope and love endure, with love being the greatest. However, we have to know that we are still looking into a dim glass. We have not come face-to-face with Christ yet.
If we are not experiencing the manifestations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit then perhaps it is because we have been pre-disposed to a certain persuasion that has hindered you and the Spirit from blessing you with them. And that's what these GIFTS are; they are blessings. Whether we realize it or not, it's like we treat the gifts like the plague or something. These are manifestations of the power of God in the life of the believer in order to show mankind that God indeed is among and with us. Preaching the gospel with signs and wonders following us is essential to the full revelation of God's presence and authority in our lives; to demonstrate His love and grace. I've read many testimonies from GFA (Gospel For Asia) where entire villages were converted as a result of a miraculous healing or deliverance from witchcraft, all by the power of the Spirit.
Now, I am not suggesting that conversions are not possible without signs and wonders. For, there were many signs that Jesus did and many still turned away. I do realize that preaching, teaching and conversation are also a means of bringing someone to the knowledge of Christ.
Nevertheless, this in no way diminishes the value of the gifts and their affect on those who see and/or experience them. They are an invaluable tool to display the authority of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which we preach.
The gifts are not for showboating and entertainment, as some have mistreated them. Often, it is because of those people that many are discouraged and are even afraid to believe in the gifts. Nevertheless, the gifts, which were given by Christ, are for edifying and adding souls to the church. The Holy Spirit works in us through many ways in order to reach the lost and to build the church of Christ.
In Him,
Brother Suarez
Signs and wonders. Each time a lost person is a recipient of the salvation of our Lord, that is within itself a sign and a wonder. No one thing any greater than the gift Jesus gave us through HIS sacrifice on the cross. The red letters WORDS and the other inspired Words of God has things to say about seeking signs and wonders.
Luke 11:29-30
29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
KJV
Other miracles continue to happen today just as they did when Jesus walked the earth in human flesh. We are to be expectant of them and in prayer for them for we know nothing is impossible with God.
Matt 13:58-14:1
58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
Luke 10:19-20
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Yes each one of us who has received HIS SPIRIT has indeed had a miracle performed in our life and in our midst and we have not seen all of it yet. See signature below.
moe_mac wrote:
Signs and wonders. Each time a lost person is a recipient of the salvation of our Lord, that is within itself a sign and a wonder. No one thing any greater than the gift Jesus gave us through HIS sacrifice on the cross. The red letters WORDS and the other inspired Words of God has things to say about seeking signs and wonders.
Luke 11:29-30
29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
KJVOther miracles continue to happen today just as they did when Jesus walked the earth in human flesh. We are to be expectant of them and in prayer for them for we know nothing is impossible with God.
Matt 13:58-14:1
58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.Luke 10:19-20
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.Yes each one of us who has received HIS SPIRIT has indeed had a miracle performed in our life and in our midst and we have not seen all of it yet. See signature below.
I totally agree with everything you've said above. And in conjuction with this I would like to add that signs and wonders must [i]follow
Firstly, I am anointed by the holy Ghost. Secondly, SI has been a refuge for weary cyber travelers looking for truth and holiness. I have enjoyed the occasional message and will continue to glean other messages on this site. Zac Poonen is a great man of God. His message, "A Father's Love" has helped me understand more of the Father's Love towards us.Psalm1 said: I would implore you to step outside [SermonIndex] in your quest for the anointing.
I would encourage you to listen to all of Zac Poonen's messages and then come back and make your assessment of him, that would be the fair thing to do.
RobertW said:
If there weren't so many churches that were against this, we wouldn't have to say it. In the Acts it was expected.Most classical Pentecostals I have ever known identify themselves almost exclusively by their speaking in tongues as initial evidence.
The reason why I didn't want this thread to turn into a tongue debate is because people get really nasty, and so far it's been relatively okay.
If there weren't so many churches that were against this, we wouldn't have to say it. In the Acts it was expected.
Compliments wrote:
RobertW said:Most classical Pentecostals I have ever known identify themselves almost exclusively by their speaking in tongues as initial evidence.
The reason why I didn't want this thread to turn into a tongue debate is because people get really nasty, and so far it's been relatively okay.
I truly appreciate your heart regarding this topic. What is so interesting to me is that the scriptures, if taken for face value, are so clear and concise about this very topic of the gifts of the Spirit, including tongue, interpretation of tongue, etc. I do not say this in a contentious way, but there is so much info in the scriptures on this topic, it's difficult for me at times when I see others express disbelief in them. I marvel at it.
In the Acts it was expected.
Perhaps you could explain this a little more? Do you mean speaking in tongues was expected or being baptized with the Holy Ghost was expected? The latter I totally agree with. I've never thought that tongues was an expected thing as an evidence in Acts but maybe I've just been missing it.
Oh, here's another message that I highly recommend on the subject of being baptized with the Holy Ghost.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3729]God's Supreme Position of Power
I know so many 'spirit-filled' people who fail to demonstrate any of the 'fruits of the spirit' in their lives.
Give me a fruit-bearing person over someone who can speak in tongues any day!
I think you'll find that if you read Apostle Paul's epistles he would be of the same opinion.
I know so many 'spirit-filled' people who fail to demonstrate any of the 'fruits of the spirit' in their lives.
The tragedy of 20th and 21st century christianity.
Give me a fruit-bearing person over someone who can speak in tongues any day!
A hardy amen!!! Although I'm not against tongues if the tongues speakers also have a fruitful life. Zac for example.
Hi Compliments,
Another to add to the list here is Art Katz. I was listening to (2006 Prophetic School) 16 & 17 The Holiness of God this weekend and he makes specific reference to the subject and the importance of it. I can't remember now if it's the #16 or #17 session. (It's a really good teaching/discussion on holiness, in case you are interested.)
Blessings,
Bereangirl
Tears of Joy, can you not read? I said, "I don't want this thread to turn into a tongues debate".
Let it die!! Please
the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness.
Galatians 5.22-23
[edit: I looked for an apology and if it's on here... I'm sorry I didn't see it.]
iansmith wrote:
I know so many 'spirit-filled' people who fail to demonstrate any of the 'fruits of the spirit' in their lives.
[u]Give me a fruit-bearing person over someone who can speak in tongues any day![/u] I think you'll find that if you read Apostle Paul's epistles he would be of the same opinion.
I agree with your statement. And while Paul emphasized love as the chiefest fruit of the spirit, I do not think he intend to diminish the value of the gifts of the spirit. Remember, he himself abounded in the gifts. For he declared that he spoke with tongues more than all of the Corinthian church. He also said that they were to desire to prophesy, but not to "forbid" speaking in tongues. This discussion has been going on-and-on for a long time. I am not speaking of SI, but of the church, throughout church history. Nevertheless, the gifts and the fruit of the spirit possess their respective measures of value, which God the Holy Spirit elected to place through the writing of the Apostle Paul. I don't believe it is prudent nor wise to select one manifestation of the Holy Spirit over the other, only that we should keep them in their respective measure, which were emphasized by the Spirit.
It is because of these contentions between denominations that some pastors are even leary of mentioning that they've experienced these manifestations of the gifts. These pastors would be excommunicated in some instances if they where to admit that these gifts are in operation today. This is such a tragedy and shame. That they would not allow the Holy Spirit to freely reign in the church as He wills, according to the will and mind of Christ, for they are all One.
I also want to reiterate that these are GIFTS of the HOLY SPIRIT (not yelling, just emphasis). They (the gifts) are not to be treated or handled so lightly, even in our forums and discussion threads. I personally believe this grieves and quenches the Holy Spirit. I believe the essence of Paul's correction to the Corithian church was balance and order, not 'if you want to choose one or the other choose fruit and negate (def. to nullify or cause to be ineffective) the gifts'. Now, I am not suggesting that anyone here has specifically said that on this thread. But, it seems that this is where this discussion is heading.
I solemly ask that we remain reverent and respectful of the Holy Spirit and His ministry to the church, by the will of God, using whatever means He sees fit.
With respect,
Brother Suarez
Zac Poonen was baptized and spoke in tongues, but he doesn't think that all people have to speak in tongues when they are baptized.
Here's his article entitled [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article07]The Truth About Speaking In Tongues
SDP
As a Southern Baptist I should probably come to the defense of my denomination.
The Southern Baptist Convention has taken a strong stand against ABUSES of the Holy Spirit. Believe me, there are and continue to be abuses of the Spirit and of Spiritual gifts among many pentecostal and charismatic churches.
Now on the far left there are abuses, and on the far right there is almost entire denial of Spiritual gifts... and unfortunately our denomination drew the line much farther to the right than many of you would esteem -and most of you would argue it is out of fear.
However I have known good pastors who do it because they care about the integrity of their flock. They are worried about false doctrines and other-gospels mixed in with the charismatic movement. And believe me, this is a real danger that all of you must be in ever present guard against.
Now what is amazing to me, is that more often than not, Bapist missionaries and pastors are willing to associate with charismatics (Paul Washer, Brother Andrew for instance) while Pentecostals and Charismatics would as soon go to a Wicca conven than attend a Baptist Church Service.
Now my church may ignore some of the Gifts of the Spirit, but I can tell you I have met so many people that are filled with the Fruits of the Spirit... and I can tell you that there are many among Baptists, and among Southern Baptists who would invite you into their homes, care for you, and give you the shirt off their backs... they may not speak in tongues, but they're living out the Gospel -and you would as soon not associate with them, or scandalize them.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but the tone of your post seem rough. I hope that the tone of what I posted did not offend you. Now, to suggest that a pentacostal or a charimatic would rather fellowhship with a Wiccan coven than a Baptist is entirely out of order and, might I add, not according to the Fruit of the Spirit. Furthermore, your accusations of divisiveness is only confirmed BY your post. Is Christ divided? If you are a Baptist, and you are abounding in the fruit of the Spirit, then perhaps patience and teaching are in order, not defense.
You came to the defense of your denomination. But we (Christian) are called to defend THE FAITH, not a sect.
I really like the way John the Baptist handle those who would try to put a wedge between him and Jesus, "He must increase, I decrease".
It does not matter how fervently we love our respective denominations. Christ died for mankind, not sects. Again I ask, is Christ divided?
I personally defend THE FAITH. The word of God is my only armory. It has all the weapons I need. If I was affiliated with a denomination, I would not defend it. If what my denomination believes is the word of God, then I would only defend it (the Word). Unfortunately, the first thing a person whips out instead are their books, pamphlets, etc.
Our allegiances have been distorted and dilutted because of sectarianism and it's gotta' stop. We cling to man's doctrine rather than the doctrine once delivered to us by the apostles and prophets. If a denomination denies a doctrine that is clearly taught in the word, then that sect must correct their theology and line up with GOD'S word.
It baffles me that there are those among us who think they are debating or arguing with us. If your doctrine is erroneous, then it is GOD you are fighting with, not man. Some have already admitted that their sects is not entirely representing the truth concerning spiritual gifts, so do we say that lightly??? As if it's just some peripheral thing with no meaning or gravity. We talk about omitting or not teaching the whole truth as though...well like an American. An American has [i]his
You will not enter into heaven because you are a Baptist, Pentacostal, Lutheran, etc. You must be born again (born from above), period!!
In Him,
Brother Suarez
Suarez, I was responding to this thread, not creating it. I hope you understand the difference.
The premise of this thread set the precident for division. I was just being devil's advocate (forgive the term) and trying to add some reason to this argument.
Of course we are all part of the body of Christ, my point was to state that more often than not Baptists are inclusive and not exclusive. What we practice and what we tolerate are different things.
We do not encourage speaking in tongues in our own congregations, but we don't tell others not to -but I've been told on more than one occasion that I'm not a Christian if I don't speak in tongues.
The fruit of the Spirit is love joy peace.............notice WHOM these attributes come from? They don't originate from me, or you, they come from the holy Spirit. Just like the works of the Spirit, I can't just turn them on when I feel like it, they have to be pressed into my being. If I don't like so and so, which is better that I say, "I like you" and be lying, or "I don't like you" and be truthful? What would be the fruit in that? Wouldn't you say the fruit would be telling the truth, regardless if it's going to either hurt them or even offend them?Intense4him said: Compliments, you may have not intended to sound like a rude, unkind and impatient pompous rear end but your statement blares these things. This is just a discussion area where we SHOULD all be free to discuss even if it's not according to your guidelines because ...
As for my statement, I don't see the need to apologize, I know that my "rude unkind impatient pompous rear end" was telling it like it is. And my guidelines are not my guidelines, it's simply a request.
But as you can see, the thread has been changed and tongues is the issue now, to which I shall participate in reading only, of course if you reply to this intens4him, both barrels are loaded :-P
I said I wasn't going to reply, but I couldn't resist.
This is most unfortunate, there are brethren that speak of things they have very little knowledge on the subject. They are only repeating what they've heard. Having said that, I will protest, that if one claims to have the holy Spirit and has not spoken in tongues, then I question their validity. Throughout the book of Acts we see that all instances of those who have received the holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues and/or prophesied.Ian said: but I've been told on more than one occasion that I'm not a Christian if I don't speak in tongues.
There is a false doctrine circulating in the churches that one receives the holy Spirit upon receiving Christ without the speaking in tongues.
I don't know why people are so afraid of the inward/outward manifestations of the holy Spirit. When I learned that the holy Spirit was available for me to receive, I wanted it. I sought him daily to be filled, a hunger developed, thirst developed for the things of God. Nothing mattered, I must be filled, and God filled me and I spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. I wasn't taught it, there was no pumping or priming, it just happened.
***************************************************
VSAURAZ SAID: It baffles me that there are those among us who think they are debating or arguing with us. If your doctrine is erroneous, then it is GOD you are fighting with, not man. Some have already admitted that their sects is not entirely representing the truth concerning spiritual gifts, so do we say that lightly??? As if it's just some peripheral thing with no meaning or gravity. We talk about omitting or not teaching the whole truth as though...well like an American. An American has his opinion about everything. All of these freedom's have crept into the ecclesical and holy things pertaining to God's divine word. We treat and handle the Word like a vote, 'maybe I'll vote for it maybe I won't, it's my choice'. Too often I've observed how polluted the American church is with Americanism, another religion covered over with christian doctrine and lingo. I am so tried of the constant bickering over your sect vs. my sect. 'I must win your soul because you don't hold to our STATEMENT OF FAITH', thus your hell bound. Ridiculous!!
THAT WAS EXCELLENT MAN!!
I will protest, that if one claims to have the holy Spirit and has not spoken in tongues, then I question their validity.
There is a false doctrine circulating in the churches that one receives the holy Spirit upon receiving Christ
without the speaking in tongues.
Can you give me Acts of the Apostle proof that anyone who was filled with the Spirit didn't speak in tongues??Remember that the only totally consistent evidence is much fruit.
The Charismatic movement in the 20th century has changed the doctrine of the church. There is an order and it doesn't have to be in order of sequence, however Peter said:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The new false way is, "accept the LORD Jesus in your heart and you'll get the holy Spirit without speaking in tongues."
Sounds like a trick of the enemy, and many have bought the lie.
Can you give me Acts of the Apostle proof that anyone who was filled with the Spirit didn't speak in tongues??
Neither is there any record of Paul speaking in tongues when he was baptized with the Holy Ghost after Ananias prayed for him even though there [i]is
There is an order and it doesn't have to be in order of sequence
The Charismatic movement in the 20th century has changed the doctrine of the church.
The new false way is, "accept the LORD Jesus in your heart and you'll get the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues."
The pentecostals preach tongues very heavily too.
And like I say, I know of many men of God who were baptized with the Holy Ghost that never spoke in tongues. For example,
Keith Daniel, Duncan Campbell, Paris Reidhead, D.L. Moody, Charles Finney, the Wesleys,
J. Edwin Orr, and so on. My point is, let's not doubt that a peson has been truly baptized with the Holy Ghost just because they have never spoken in tongues.
And again I say, I whole heartedly believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost and I don't by any means believe that someone is filled with (baptized) with the Holy Spirit at conversion. It can happen immediately after conversion in the right circumstances but that's not often.
The teaching that someone is filled with the Holy Spirit at conversion is false and I'm not afraid to say that even though some would disagree.
running2win wrote:Can you give me Acts of the Apostle proof that anyone who was filled with the Spirit didn't speak in tongues??
Acts chapter 8 when Peter and John had to go and pray for the people to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. There's no record there of tongues.Neither is there any record of Paul speaking in tongues when he was baptized with the Holy Ghost after Ananias prayed for him even though there
[i]is[/i] record in 1 Corinthians of Paul speaking in tongues. (Just a side note on that same line, my father also didn't speak in tongues when he was baptized with the Holy Ghost but is was sometime later that he did. If you want to know the story PM me and I'll explain it there.)
There is an order and it doesn't have to be in order of sequence
The Charismatic movement in the 20th century has changed the doctrine of the church.
The new false way is, "accept the LORD Jesus in your heart and you'll get the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues."
The pentecostals preach tongues very heavily too.
And like I say, I know of many men of God who were baptized with the Holy Ghost that never spoke in tongues. For example,
Keith Daniel, Duncan Campbell, Paris Reidhead, D.L. Moody, Charles Finney, the Wesleys,
J. Edwin Orr, and so on. My point is, let's not doubt that a peson has been truly baptized with the Holy Ghost just because they have never spoken in tongues.
And again I say, I whole heartedly believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost and I don't by any means believe that someone is filled with (baptized) with the Holy Spirit at conversion. It can happen immediately after conversion in the right circumstances but that's not often.
The teaching that someone is filled with the Holy Spirit at conversion is false and I'm not afraid to say that even though some would disagree.
It seems to me that some of us [i]want[i]first
Now, subsquently, we see other instances where the same thing happens. The best example of this precedent is in the account of Cornelius' salvation.
Observe:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were [b]astonished[b]the gift[b]For[u]speak with tongues, and magnify God
Here the Jewish converts were amazed primarily because Cornelius and his family were gentiles and despite this, God had given them the gift of the Holy Spirit, evidence by speaking (prophesing) and magnifying God.
Another instance:
Acts 19:1-7
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 [b]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied
These men were essentially still postured for Messiah to come. Paul brought them up-to-date and then prayed for them to receive the gift Jesus said He would send after He ascended to the Father.
[As a side note, it is NOT necessary to lay hands on someone in order for them to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. We see various ways recorded by Luke. Peter was preaching the word at the time when the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius' household. Hand were laid of none of the disciples at the inception of the church. So, for those who are adamant about laying on of hand have to contend with the scripture not me. I personally receive the baptism on the very day that I received salvation and noone laid hands on me. Oh, also, you don't have to be water baptized before receiving the Holy Spirit. Peter water baptized after. Paul before.] I think the Lord allow this to happen and be recorded because He knew our nature to concoct our own little formulas.:-D
Since the church's inception the common outward sign of the in-filling of the Holy Ghost was and is to prophesy or speak as the Spirit moved them (other tongues). Are there counterfits, yes. Just as there are genuine. The former does not discount nor nullify the latter.
Now, you will quote the other instances where Luke does not [u]record
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Aha, you say, 'it does not say he spoke in tongues'. You are correct. However, as I have argued above, the first occurrence sets the precedence for each subsquent account. Look at what Paul wrote to the church at Corinth:
1 Corinthian 14
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues...
18 I [b][u]THANK MY GOD[b]I[b]more
So it is safe to assume that, though it was not recorded, Paul spoke with tongues some time after being filled with the Holy Spirit. We see that in fact He was, by His own words, a "tongue talkin'" believer. Did Paul speak in tongues immediately? No one knows. I did not speak with tongue until about 2 mos. after receiving salvation, again not through any human agency. Quite frankly, it frightened me, since I did not have anyone to explain what it was and my knowledge of the scriptures was nil at that time.
I hope I have presented a balance perspective of the subject.
Lastly, I will say the following again. Jesus on the night he was betrayed bequethed and pronounced many things we where to expect in our inheritance. I said this to say that those of you who will not acknowledge the validity and preciousness of these gifts, tongues included, have shuned the very gifts Jesus suffered and die in order to give to all who believe in Him.
We have this treasure (the Holy Spirit w/His gifts) in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of GOD and not of us.
I appeal to you. Do not mishandle these precious gifts the Holy Spirit so desires to bestow on us as we trust Him.
In His Truth,
Vincent
It's pretty sad that so many people want to have the gift of tongues, but so little want to have the gift of prophesy, or preaching.
And, it is even more unfortunate that, that is not in accordance with the scriptures. Please see 1 Corinthians 14.
i believe in the gift of tongues. But never is it used in the Bible to validate someone's conversion. It is one of the many outworkings of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The body has different parts, so the body of Christ has different gifts, but the same Spirit works in and through them all.
Just for the record, when they picked out the deacons in Acts chapter 6, they didn't ask if they could speak in tongues... they had to be faithful. And throughout the scriptures you see that God seeks and makes faithful men. If one's life is changed from "darkeness to light" it would be wrong of anyone to say that "Your not born again, if you havn't spoken in tongues."
The fruit of the Spirit is... tongues? No, love joy peace... etc.
Please, for the sake of Christ, don't make a mountain out of a mole hill!! :-( :-D
God bless you all.
-nathan
JesusIsMyLrd wrote:
It's pretty sad that so many people want to have the gift of tongues, but so little want to have the gift of prophesy, or preaching.And, it is even more unfortunate that, that is not in accordance with the scriptures. Please see 1 Corinthians 14.
i believe in the gift of tongues. But never is it used in the Bible to validate someone's conversion. It is one of the many outworkings of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The body has different parts, so the body of Christ has different gifts, but the same Spirit works in and through them all.
Just for the record, when they picked out the deacons in Acts chapter 6, they didn't ask if they could speak in tongues... they had to be faithful. And throughout the scriptures you see that God seeks and makes faithful men. If one's life is changed from "darkeness to light" it would be wrong of anyone to say that "Your not born again, if you havn't spoken in tongues."
The fruit of the Spirit is... tongues? No, love joy peace... etc.
Please, for the sake of Christ, don't make a mountain out of a mole hill!! :-( :-D
God bless you all.
-nathan
I will be the first to say that the scriptures places greater value on the fruit of the Spirit over the gifts of the Spirit. I said this either in this thread or one like it. We should keep each within their respective measure and value, which the Holy Spirit places on them. We are (or at least I am) not [u]comparing
These are GIFTS of the HOLY SPIRIT. We ought not to dare speak of them like an old worn out pare of holely socks. :-(
Vincent,
I'm in perfect agreement with [b]ALL[i]and[u]When someone says they've been baptized with the Holy Ghost, let's not say "no you haven't because you didn't speak in tongues."
I would that ye all spake with tongues
Yes brother, I think you've presented a very balanced view, and again let me say that the only point I was trying to make is that in the case that someone says they've been baptized with the Holy Ghost and hasn't spoken in tongues, there are other evidences. Otherwise you have to say that people like Moody and Campbell and Finney were never baptized with the Holy Ghost in spite of their own testimonies and in spite of what history clearly shows.
May God forgive me if I was slighting the gifts that God has given to us so that we might effectively serve Him.
Any my apologies to anyone who might have misunderstood what I was trying to say.
Your right it doesn't say anything about the speaking in tongues, however, with the rest of the Acts and their examples you can't negate the Samaritans experience because the writer didn't mention tongues. And I know your not negating as you have plainly stated that your in complete agreement.running2win said: Acts chapter 8 when Peter and John had to go and pray for the people to be baptized with the Holy Ghost. There's no record there of tongues.
Lets look at the passage,
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
In verse 18 What did Simon see that would cause him to offer the Apostles money when they were laying their hands on them to receive the holy Spirit?
He saw a manifestation of some kind, if it was a matter of just laying hands on someone without any manifestation, he wouldn't have offered money.
*******************************************
The Pentecostal church that I was attending offered a great foundation. They considered anyone who received Jesus Christ into their heart to be justified, but would stress the importance of being filled with the Spirit for sanctification and holiness. But they wouldn't force it on you. Cheap grace was not tolerated, if you were a believer and you came in with a mini skirt, you were covered up. I do believe that we should be liberal in our faith, remembering not to offend anyone with our freedom. When the subject of tongues would come up, the preacher would say, "Your right, you don't have to speak in tongues to have the holy Spirit, however, when you receive the holy Spirit you will speak in tongues".I'm not sure what portion of the charismatic world you're from or if that's even your background in the first place but the portion I came from preached very heavily the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Oh, they preached cheap grace and easy believism too.
The United Pentecostal branch preach this too heavily. It's like a god to them, and they'll separate from anyone who does not. This is wrong! They will even tell you that if you don't speak in tongues your lost. This too is wrong! They have neglected Justification and went right to Sanctification.The pentecostals preach tongues very heavily too.
I believe what that particular verse says that you are referring to says " new tongues" To me that particular verse means you want say the same things you did in the past and that's evidence you have HIS SPIRIT. Unknown tongues were spoken on the Day of Pentecost for the first time in the New Testment. Everyone heard what was said in their native tongue. The other tongues that are mentioned are "other tongues:. I am not sure what Paul was referring to. I definately know that anything is possible with God. I do not have what the pentecostals call a prayer language. I will not venture to say that tongues have ceased just because I don't have a prayer language. I think the Southern Baptist made a mistake in their no tongues resolution not long ago because the word says "forbid not" the speaking in tongues. Many things that believers share with others about what God does in each individuals life make others eyes roll. I say if it of God, let it roll. If not, not my problem.
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
You got a point there. They had believed, receieved the word and had been water baptized but had not received the Holy Spirit. Would you say Paul had been given more or less of God’s power than believers today? Are there still Apostles today? Can we add to HIS WORD? Can we add to the Bible under direction of the Holy Spirit? Can we write another book, verse, or chapter?
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17
I think everyone on SI would agree that this is the last days. Being that Paul in himself did nothing ,but through the Holy Spirit which is still given today, I believe with faith the things Paul did could still be done today.
It is indeed the last days and the last days starting on the day of pentecost and continues until today and will continue until Jesus returns for HIS bride the church.
2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The prophet Joel give the prophecy. Jesus fulfiled it and Peter wrote about it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Everytime someone is saved and born again, He pours out HIS SPIRIT upon them.
Jesus is still in the miracle business. HIS Power is still the strongest power but I don't think he has gave any of us the power to add to or take away from the Bible. If we were equal to Paul we could add a verse.
Rev 22:18-19
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Then wouldn't you agree that visions, prophesies, tongues, and miracles are still for today?
OOPS! I didn't finish reading your reply. I do not believe that the Holy Bible can be added to or taken away from, but the Holy Spirit would not lead someone to do something he comdemned.
Yes Timmy, HIS Miracles still happen today. All healing is divine healing. Even when we cut our hand he designed our body to heal. He still heals people of diseases, sometimes temporary and if you are HIS, all time permanently. When we are saved we are healed forever. We just won't be glorified until we see Jesus. I believe there are many miracles we don't even see happen everyday. I believe he has had mercy on me and many others or I would have already been dead and lost. There are many bad things that could happen that he prevents for us. He is our provider. He is our SOURCE. He has many resources but he is the source. I depend on HIM for the very air I breathe which is not much at times because I have COPD. Every time someone is saved that is the biggest miracle of all. When we are saved we are raised from the dead, it just has not occurred yet until we reach that appointed time . I believe in tongues because Paul talked about them in HIS WORD although I don't have a prayer language. I believe unless we are sealed with HIS SPIRIT we will not see the KINGDOM of GOD. I believe each of us are at different levels of being filled with HIS SPIRIT and we all have different gifts and he give them as he sees fit. HIS gifts come from HIS grace. He gives more grace to the humble. Speaking in tongues is not a requirement or an evidence of being filled with HIS SPIRIT that I can see in HIS WORD. Speaking with new tongues is though. Not only speaking with new tongues as we become a new creation, all things are new and old thing have passed away. 5 years ago before he knew me I would have considered it to be wasting my time sharing what I knew about HIM and HIS WORD on SI. I have never had a prayer language but if I ever do I pray I will realize everything comes from HIM. If I boast it will only be in HIM. I believe he speaks to HIS people in dreams and otherwise, mostly though HIS WORD and HIS prophets. A prophet is someone who speaks God’s Word. I don't think HE ever speaks anything contrary to HIS WRITTEN WORD. When I stand before HIM he is not going to ask me if I’m Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, or what church I attend, if I preached, taught, or if I have ever spoke in tongues. He want even ask me if I know Jesus. He knows the answer to that. What will matter is if He knows me.
Matt 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV
Timmy I am not trying to be critical of you or anyone else. We need to take God’s Word seriously. When we exchange passages as we are doing it shines light on HIS WORD for all of us. That is the purpose of this forum and I think it’s great. It will not matter whether I’m right or your right, what matter is what HIS WORD says. I have only given what HIS WORD says to me. If it is anything otherwise I pray he will reveal it to me. I did not say anything other than what HIS WORD says to my knowledge. I am not condemning or attempting to comdemn you in anyway. All of this won't be a factor when we get to the gate because we will be to busy praising HIM and he will be drying every tear from our eyes.
Timmy my Mother and Dad have been Pentecostal since I was born. My dad went to be with Jesus in 1987, he was a deacon. My mom is 86 with congestive heart failure. She was very bad not long ago and asked me to pray for her as she cried. I am a member of the Baptist church. I don’t agree with all their theology. I agree with HIS theology. But I believe in salvation by grace, not a license to sin. I believe, if saved always saved, and not once prayed a prayer and always saved. Many Baptist Church members have bought into did you pray a prayer one time and if you did you’re ok. They have bought into separating HIM from other parts of life. HIS WORD not being a factor in government and the laws of the great nation who once gave HONOR to HIS NAME through the legislation by the people, of the people and for the people. When we know he says in everything he says HE must have supremacy. No man can serve two masters. The Bible says examine yourself, are you different, are you of the faith. Are you a new creation? If have offended you or anyone it was not my purpose and I ask your forgiveness. I enjoy forum and sharing HIS WORD.
A brother in Christ
Gary
vsuarez said:
I will be the first to say that the scriptures places greater value on the fruit of the Spirit over the gifts of the Spirit. I said this either in this thread or one like it. We should keep each within their respective measure and value, which the Holy Spirit places on them. We are (or at least I am) not comparing gifts vs fruit. My only point is that, and I think it is an important one, we cannot negate the gifts of the Spirit as if there are of NO value whatsoever. It saddens me when I read peoples posts regarding the gifts, treating them like second hand clothing. All of the manifestations are of the Spirit, by the Spirit and through the Spirit. 'Making a mountain out of a mole hill?" Let me ask anyone here a question, which of you, if you gave your best gifts to your sons and daughter, and if they took them and mishandled, abused and mistreated them, How would that make you feel, honestly? You worked so hard in getting something you know they need and they disregard the love and care you put into making sure it was exactly what they needed, how would you feel? These are GIFTS of the HOLY SPIRIT. We ought not to dare speak of them like an old worn out pare of holely socks.
Amen brother! i guess the point i wanted to make was that we focus on the gift giver, more than the gifts. Because the mass majority of American "Christians" put more time in seeking after gifts than the gift giver, i was not sure how to correctly express what i wanted to say. i understand what you mean by the parable you shared about giving gifts to a son or daughter. That really blessed me. It is a precious thing that we have in the gifts of the Spirit. But more precious is the most important gift we have from God the Father, His Son. Paul's goal in life was "That i may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings" Oh that we may know Him personally, and closely, so that He can fully and effectively pour out His gifts onto us!
Amen to what you said about the holy socks! OFten we take it for granted.
God bless you!
In Christ,
-nathan
running2win,
Amen, you are so right. And this has been such a shame. I think the words of Jesus is apropos, which is that they 'make the Word of God of no effect by their traditions.
It never ceases to marvel me how simple we can be at times. What I mean is, we don't take the time to check the scriptures and see if what we are being taught is in fact in accordance with the word of God. So men make up their own doctrines about the Holy Spirit and turn it into legalism (you MUST speak in tongues, otherwise either you're not truly filled, or, even worst, you're not even saved!) thus rendering this gift ineffective and powerless.
I've even seen people fabricate speaking in tongues just to appease a minister's prodding at the "altar". So the person just starts rambling something just to "make believe" that they've received the baptism of the spirit.
It is a sad commentary when a ministry/denomination will sacrifice the purity of the truth all for denominationally imposed doctrines and ordinances, which only "ministers" confusion and death, not life (the Letter Killeth). So now the person is either going to have to fake it or is lead to believe they've received "it".
I cannot write anymore. My heart hurts too much to even talk about the things I've seen and heard during my walk.
I thank you for your heart after balance and sound (clean and hygenic) doctrine.
In Him,
Brother Suarez
running2win wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is[u]When someone says they've been baptized with the Holy Ghost, let's not say "no you haven't because you didn't speak in tongues."[/u] The fact that Paul even says
I would that ye all spake with tongues
Yes brother, I think you've presented a very balanced view, and again let me say that the only point I was trying to make is that in the case that someone says they've been baptized with the Holy Ghost and hasn't spoken in tongues, there are other evidences. Otherwise you have to say that people like Moody and Campbell and Finney were never baptized with the Holy Ghost in spite of their own testimonies and in spite of what history clearly shows.
May God forgive me if I was slighting the gifts that God has given to us so that we might effectively serve Him.
Any my apologies to anyone who might have misunderstood what I was trying to say.
JesusIsMyLrd wrote:
vsuarez said:I will be the first to say that the scriptures places greater value on the fruit of the Spirit over the gifts of the Spirit. I said this either in this thread or one like it. We should keep each within their respective measure and value, which the Holy Spirit places on them. We are (or at least I am) not comparing gifts vs fruit. My only point is that, and I think it is an important one, we cannot negate the gifts of the Spirit as if there are of NO value whatsoever. It saddens me when I read peoples posts regarding the gifts, treating them like second hand clothing. All of the manifestations are of the Spirit, by the Spirit and through the Spirit. 'Making a mountain out of a mole hill?" Let me ask anyone here a question, which of you, if you gave your best gifts to your sons and daughter, and if they took them and mishandled, abused and mistreated them, How would that make you feel, honestly? You worked so hard in getting something you know they need and they disregard the love and care you put into making sure it was exactly what they needed, how would you feel? These are GIFTS of the HOLY SPIRIT. We ought not to dare speak of them like an old worn out pare of holely socks.
Amen brother! i guess the point i wanted to make was that we focus on the gift giver, more than the gifts. Because the mass majority of American "Christians" put more time in seeking after gifts than the gift giver, i was not sure how to correctly express what i wanted to say. i understand what you mean by the parable you shared about giving gifts to a son or daughter. That really blessed me. It is a precious thing that we have in the gifts of the Spirit. But more precious is the most important gift we have from God the Father, His Son. Paul's goal in life was "That i may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings" Oh that we may know Him personally, and closely, so that He can fully and effectively pour out His gifts onto us!
Amen to what you said about the holy socks! OFten we take it for granted.
God bless you!
In Christ,
-nathan
100% Amen to your post. And in that same vein my only concern is that He (Jesus) is the one who went to such pains to give these gift. They are from [i]HIM
In Hime,
Brother Suarez
Amen and praise GOD brother Suarez and I'd like to lift up a younger brother in the LORD who I greatly admire also.
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Nate loves to tell others about His Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! At church, he records our services digitally and either mails them on discs or emails them as mp3 files to a growing list of subscribers. He’s also been helping out by leading worship on Sunday mornings."""
Bless Jesus ~ Oh, that all young people were like this.
BLESS THE LORD !!! :-D
If I have offended you or anyone it was not my purpose and I ask your forgiveness.
Oh no brother you have not offended me at all. I didn't mean to sound offended. I was just trying to shed some light on the subject. I truly believe if we could all come together in one mind and one accord trusting in the Word of God, and the power of the name of Jesus, we would see great things in these days. I believe our faith is not as child like as the believers in the early church. And that for the most part is why not much happens today.
Yes, I agree Salvation is the greatest miracle of all.
With Love-TimmyJoe
And when TimmyJoe says "With Love" - he means it.
:-D :-D
GOD has been Blessing SI with lots of His 'Loving' Children.
It's been a True pleasure to be back here this time.
PRAISE HIS PRECIOUS NAME!
[b][u]GOD BLESS YOUR CHILDREN.
:-)
I don't believe they are all baptist. You can listen to some of Josef Urban's sermons, he is not baptist, but has been baptised with the Holy Ghost, praise the Lord!!!
Here is the page link:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=690
Check out "Warning False Converts"
Blessings!
All baptist that are saved are baptized with the Holy Ghost. Some or just fuller than others. And some simple are lost as in all church groups.
Check out "Warning False Converts"
Amen
All baptist that are saved are baptized with the Holy Ghost.
They are really Bapticostals!
Secret Bible loving pentecostals infultrating the Fundimental evangelical denomination's "Backbone" Denomination.
See Chuck Smith and most Calvary Chapel's for you preference Bro!
I just want to make it very clear that I am not picking on the dear Baptists. I was merely using that denominational group for all groups that don't believe in the baptism in the holy Spirit. I could have made a list of them, but I was hoping you'd get my point.
The Baptists have a great foundational message, solid. However, they fall short in moving forward into the things of the Spirit and the power of God and the deeper truths of the word.
Thats why I was asking if there were more speakers that have moved on in receiving the baptism in the holy Spirit, it's them that I would like to hear because of the deeper spiritual truths.
Please continue adding to this thread messages that are of this nature. God Bless
If you fit the mold of Bapticostal.Really try
Calvary Chapel.I went to a baptist seminary and I love being ministered to at a 'Spirit Filled" church(in order of course).All of the calvarys have media pages and the Bible Teaching/Preaching is solid.
Love ya in JC.
Whether or not there is a "baptism of the Holy Spirit" experience or not, we know that everyone that is born-again has the Spirit of God in Him.
The scriptures are clear and simple with no need of explanation.
1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Rom 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Joh 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit there is no being born again.
Praise God Almighty for the Comforter. He has not left us comfortless or alone. He has given us the Spirit of Truth, that will never leave us!
Amen
John 1:16
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
KJV
Eph 1:23
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
KJV
Eph 3:19
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
KJV
Col 2:9-10
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
KJV
by running2win
Can you give me Acts of the Apostle proof that anyone who was filled with the Spirit didn't speak in tongues??
Response:
Is this the verse below the passage you are referring to. There are 3 kinds of tongues referred to in the scriptures that I know of. Unknown, Other, and new tongues.
Are the new tongues what you are referring to as evidence?
Mark 16:17
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
KJV
When some one is saved, is a devil not cast out?
When they become a new creation do they not speak differently? I do not have a prayer language nor am I saying that no such thing exist. All things are possible with God. He can do and does do all things to accomplish HIS purpose.
The tongues referred to are mentioned in Acts 2:4
Other tongues
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV
Unknown tongues
1 Cor 14:2
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
KJV
New, unknown, other
Are they different tongues?
Comments welcome
Thats why I was asking if there were more speakers that have moved on in receiving the baptism in the holy Spirit, it's them that I would like to hear because of the deeper spiritual truths.
vico,
Thank you, that's a beautiful collection of verses that you put together. An excellent job of showing that indeed all who are born-again are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that if one isn't then they are not born-again. I don't argue that point at all.
moe_mac,
I'm not sure I completely understand your last post, would you mind explaining further? It seems that you are saying that you think that the tongues is the difference in the way a person speaks when they are born-again, which being somewhat of a conceivable idea can easily be used to cheapen the work that God does in a believer when he is filled with the Holy Ghost by saying that "it all happens at conversion". Now, again, I don't think that tongues is the absolute proof that one has been filled with the Holy Ghost though it is a prominent one. And I do believe also that in certain cases people are so thoroughly dealt with by God at conversion that they are filled immediately after being converted, in which case you could say that they "got it all at conversion". However, there still needs to be a distinction made in that they have been filled with the Holy Ghost in comparison to the fact that there are many who are saved who are not filled.
I guess my point is, while there is certainly a change of speech in most (in saying [i]most[b]and not before[i]His Testimony and Conversion by Duncan Campbell[i] The Baptism with the Holy Spirit by Paris Reidhead
When the Bereans were presented the Gospel they thought it necessary to search the scriptures to see what things Paul spoke of were true. Paul could have told them, "Brothers, the scriptures are clear and simple there is no need of an explanation". Scripture tells us to do the opposite of your counsel withVico Said: The scriptures are clear and simple with no need of explanation.
I want to rightly divide your comments regarding the infilling of the Holy Spirit.2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I am glad that you said, "Whether or not there is a baptism of the holy Spirit", because I want to draw your attention to the same words in:Vico said: Whether or not there is a "baptism of the Holy Spirit" experience or not, we know that everyone that is born-again has the Spirit of God in Him.
This group of disciples were believers, but they heard nothing about the [baptism] of the holy Spirit as Paul says in verse 3.Acts 19:2 Paul said unto them, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
After they learned that it was Christ that baptizes with the Holy Spirit, they immediately were baptized in water in the name of Jesus. Paul knew these people were believers, but he also knew that they were not filled with the holy Spirit.
I want you to pay close attention to what Paul is saying in verse 4:
John's baptism was a foreshadow of the baptism of the holy Spirit. "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance SAYING, that they should believe on Him which should come after him". Paul is expounding a little here in regards to the two baptisms, one being of John the foreshadow, and the other being of Christ the New Creation.Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Lets look at what John said:
There is a vast difference between water and Spirit. One is natural the other is Spirit. The natural was a foreshadow of the good things that would come, Holy Spirit.Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
But I don't want to thwart the theme of this post because it's important that you realize that everyone who becomes a believer does not automatically receive the Holy Spirit as most church creeds teach today. Some instances have been reported that persons received the holy Spirit whilest they were listening to the Gospel:
Lets look at another example, "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established"Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
The verses that you quoted from 1John and other places as having the Spirit of God, it MUST be in conjunction to the foundation. We don't go to the back of the book to get our answers, we go to the foundation of the Apostles doctrine and Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone.Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:16[b](For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)[/b] .
running2win wrote:
moe_mac,I'm not sure I completely understand your last post, would you mind explaining further? It seems that you are saying that you think that the tongues is the difference in the way a person speaks when they are born-again, which being somewhat of a conceivable idea can easily be used to cheapen the work that God does in a believer when he is filled with the Holy Ghost by saying that "it all happens at conversion". Now, again, I don't think that tongues is the absolute proof that one has been filled with the Holy Ghost though it is a prominent one. And I do believe also that in certain cases people are so thoroughly dealt with by God at conversion that they are filled immediately after being converted, in which case you could say that they "got it all at conversion". However, there still needs to be a distinction made in that they have been filled with the Holy Ghost in comparison to the fact that there are many who are saved who are not filled.
moe_mac response to clarify!!!!!
I will attempt to explain further. I don't believe it is possible to cheapen the power of God when someone is saved from hell. I believe a person can bring God’s wrath on themselves if they knowingly speak against HIS truth or add to it and who in their right mind would want that. We must not speak abusively about what we do not understand.I can only speak of what I know and understand.
The way I understand the scripture at the present, within my understanding of what HE has given me is all I am capable of speaking of, as I replied, and that understanding I have, is just what it says, "they will speak with new tongues" Mark 16:17
The Bible talks of unknown and other tongues also.
NT:1100
glossa (gloce-sah'); of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):
Lets go over what God has done throughout HIS WORD on this subject. The first thing I could recall was the tower of Babel. He confused their language. The second is on the day of Pentecost he allowed each person to hear in his own language. On the Day of Pentecost he did just the opposite from the tower of Babel. God has given man the knowledge and the technology to convert HIS WORD “THE BIBLE” to many languages and to broadcast it by satellite and other ways to many countries because he is not willing that any should perish but all to come to the knowledge of the truth.
On the day of Pentecost when everyone heard Peter in there own language as Luke alluded to in Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV
Now, ok let go through the verse, they shall take up serpents, now if God told me to pick up a deadly snake I pray that my faith will allow me to, but HE ain’t and I ain’t going to unless I know should tell me. He hasn’t told me to drink any deadly poison either as they did at Jamestown or I can gather from the rest of HIS WORD I don’t believe he will tell us to pick up a snake or drink poison but I guess it is possible. The point Paul is making is when our physical bodies die we are present with the Lord. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Hey that’s enough to shout about.
The other tongue referred to is unknown tongues. God did what he needed to do at the time to get HIS WORD to HIS people.
Acts 2:3-7
4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Other tongues
1 Cor 14:21-22
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
KJV
1 Cor 12:10-11
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
KJV
1 Cor 12:30-31
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
KJV
1 Cor 12:28-30
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
KJV
Ok answer Paul’s question, do they all speak with tongues?
and also in
1 Cor 13:1-2
13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
KJV
When we have been saved, we have the Holy Spirit living within us. One third of the Trinity lives in our mortal bodies, we can’t have the Holy Spirit, without first repenting and accepting the SON, His virgin birth, and what he did at the cross, His sinless life, His resurrection, and whoever has THE SON, has fellowship with the Father. And we know God is Love. Would you say all saved people have HIS love living within them?
And we have more on tongues in:
1 Cor 13:8-11
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away .9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
KJV
Now the next questions is do Christians have all the same gifts as Paul? The only one I know for sure we don’t have is the authority to add to God’s Word. I can’t add “1st moe-mac 2:1” or you can’t add “2nd running win 14:2”. So the answer is, no we don’t have all the authority Paul had. Again I am not saying if anyone speaks in tongues it is not of God. Do not read anything into what I have said or not said.
and also in
1 Cor 14:5-7
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
KJV
And also in
1 Cor 14:18-24
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
KJV
And it is real interesting how some people want to take some of Paul writings under the inspiration of the Holy Sprit leave the rest out, such as with the snakes, the poison and the verses below about authority in the church. But it says if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Now the Southern Baptist Convention not long ago passed a resolution forbidding speaking in tongues. Go figure. At the present time I am a member of a Baptist church. I don’t know how long. My church membership does not save me. Jesus saved me. It is every believer’s service to work in the local body. To be honest with you I don’t know one that does all I see and understand in God’s Word. I see adding to and taking away. What are they thinking? And you watch it want be long until they ordain women in the ministry. Let um be ignorant right!!!
and also in:
1 Cor 14:35-15:1
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
KJV
As I said I do not have a prayer language. I do not interpret as in the meaning of to understand someone when they speak in tongues and relay in English what they said or any other language.
Am I saying it is not of God? Absolutely not. As I said earlier "nothing is impossible with God”. If he spoke to man through a donkey then why couldn't he do it through anyone and why couldn’t he do it any way that he chose to. Just because I don't understand it does not mean anything. There are many things in God's Word that I can't give an opinion about, because I don't have a clue all that it saying and neither does anyone know probably even half. But I do know he has gave me the understanding that he desires me to have at this time because I asks Him regularly to give me more understanding of HIS WORD. I can only speak about what he has given me in the present and what I do speak and attempt to speak about HIS word I do it with much seriousness and fear and trembling. We must speak the truth in love as he has revealed to us.
God speaks to us many different ways. I do not cheapen anything of God or from God. God help me us if we do. QUIET THE CONTRARY. I want to lift up THE NAME OF JESUS, HIS TRUTH and HIS RIGHTOUSNESS. Apart from HIM we are nothing.
I too don't see most people getting even half of God's at conversion. Sanctification is a process in a sense and a completeness in another sense. At conversion we have all that is neccasary to be heirs and joint heirs with HIM. We will not be glorified until we pass from our present body to the one HE glorifies. I have grown in HIS knowledge and understanding and I know if I were to put a scale on it the amount of understanding would be minute.
Since a true conversion in my life, I have alienated by many of my former friends and relatives. Could it be all I want to do is talk about HIM, HIS WORD, HIS LOVE, HIS CHURCH and they don't want to hear it? I don't know but it sure appears as if. Will I compromise and be silent? I haven't yet. With HIS Strength I want be silent.There are many signs that he gives us in HIS WORD that we can examine ourselves with to see if we are of the faith. I want to examine myself daily. I need to know daily that he is pleased with me. I find it neccasary to confess my sins regulary and ask for strength to endure the fallout. It is important for to me to know that I am following where he leads. We can see in HIS WORD one way to gauge spiritual maturity in our own life is the abiltity to know good from evil.Heb. 5:14
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
KJV
and examine ourselves
As 2nd 13:5
I hope I have cleared up any possible misunderstanding in my last post.
And to answer one question, No, not all saved people are at the same levels of spiritual fulness.
Any rebuttal not only welcome but encouraged.
In Christ
Gary
moe_mac
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